The Goat Church
Posted on December 5th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Why We Blog categoryThere is a sickness in the American Church and that sickness is SELF. I was recently reading the story of The Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46) and it suddenly struck me… this is what God would have us do.
Help Others.
I mean, REALLY help others. Not just around the holidays, not just by giving some money, or donating old items to Good Will, but daily, through relationships.
It's a difficult teaching to receive, but one that is all too important. It hurts when you realize that you are a GOAT and hurts worse when you realize that you go to a GOAT church and live in a GOAT country.
Here is what I think the Christian Church looks like to the outside world:
A dark, empty, house.
We think the prettier our house is the more we will be able to help people. So we raise all kinds of money to make things look nice. Then we go and unlock the door and consider that "evangelism". Of course, whenever we see someone walking down the street towards us, we quickly shut out the lights and go hide in the basement.
Sure, we all want to help people, right? All they have to do is come into our home, turn on our lights, walk down to our basement, and find us. Should anyone be willing to do those things then by all means, we are going to help them. Praise God.
And the church wants to think the world hates Christians, but quite frankly, I don't really think they do. I think they find us to be complete hypocrites, who aren't worth hating. I'll bet the world barely knows we exist. In fact the only time they seem to notice us is around elections…AND THEY THINK WE ARE ALL REPUBLICANS.
We waste so much time at the church helping people in the church, preparing them to face the world? Cell Groups, Bible Studies, Interest Groups, Leadership Training, Membership Classes… Blah, blah, blah, it's all a waste of time.
IF WE AREN'T OUT HELPING THOSE IN NEED IT IS ALL A HUGE WASTE OF TIME.
We need to spend more (a lot more) time working on living out Matthew 25. I would love to see a church known for feeding the hungry, clothing and sheltering the homeless, caring for the sick, reaching out to those in prison, but where do most churches end up spending their time? IN CHURCH.
Jesus said "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance". He came to save the lost, not to set up a study group for every Tuesday night. "Sinners" aren't likely to come find you hiding in the basement, you need to go find them and guess what??? Some of them might be living with AIDS or worse yet some might actually be living a homosexual lifestyle? OMG.
Remember when Jesus got in trouble with the religious leaders for going to dinner with the homosexual? You don't… oh, that's because back then homosexuals were called "tax collectors".
Can you imagine a world where Christians were calling out to each other saying "You need to stop spending so much time helping others and get back into church for some Bible teaching"? How would that world look? Pretty damn nice, I'd say.
Christ died to give us everything and we want to make it all about ourselves.
Shame on us. Shame on me.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
For the record, I am not giving my church a pass on this one. I go to a GOAT church.
December 5th, 2006 at 2:46 pm
A real short article I wrote several years ago, JP.
Eye Opener: Sheep or Goat?
Jack
December 5th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Do any sheep churches exist? I’ve never been to one.
KM
December 5th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
RP,
I was reading in Nehemiah today, and came across these interesting verses:
Neh 5:7 I took counsel with myself, and I brought charges against the nobles and the officials. I said to them, “You are exacting interest, each from his brother.” And I held a great assembly against them
Neh 5:8 and said to them, “We, as far as we are able, have bought back our Jewish brothers who have been sold to the nations, but you even sell your brothers that they may be sold to us!” They were silent and could not find a word to say.
Neh 5:9 So I said, “The thing that you are doing is not good. Ought you not to walk in the fear of our God to prevent the taunts of the nations our enemies?
The way we treat people, far more than our doctrinal correctness, the beauty of our Church buildings, the millions of books we have written on Church life and leadership, etc., is so much more the real issue.
We ought to have a far deeper fear/reverence of our God so as to prevent the taunts of the nations, our culture, our communities and our neighbors.
You are soooo right on RP. The GOP is not “God’s own Party.” We are buffoons if we think it is. We stand up with our placards, declaring “God hates Fags,” and actually think God is impressed, while the watching world turns away and concludes “Well, nothing in the Church I need.”
Jesus is outside the camp of all this stuff, full of grace and compassion, wanting us to come out of our ivory towers and into the streets of needy mankind, and instead we scream invectives at the lost supposing we have become the John the Baptists of our day.
Jesus was far more inclined to rip the Pharisees of His day, than the sinners. I absolutely cannot image Him standing on a street corner shouting out “Hate Homosexual” attacks. It’s just not Jesus!
The Church needs to wake up, and listen to the taunts of the lost. We just might be surprised to find they’ve become God’s tools to speak repentance into us, His Church.
They know Church is about big business. They know Church is about man’s interpretation of God’s bible so as to manipulate the people into doing what they want and giving them the money they crave. They know Church leaders are often crazed ego maniacs and control freaks. They know we bind heavy burdens on people and are unwilling to lift a finger to help the burdened. No wonder they want nothing to do with us. Why should they?
December 5th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Do you write short articles, Jack?????
)
December 5th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Somewhere, my wife bought a small leather bound book printed in 1890 something. The title was “Where Love is, there God is Also” Leo Tolstoy
was the author. For some time, I thought of it as a nice antique to have on the end table, but then one day I read it. It is a novel based on the scripture you quoted in Matthew 25. It made me cry. The Holy Spirit used it to change the way I see things, so has your blog.
PS you could probably find a copy at powells books, maybe even the library. You should read it.
December 5th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Among brothers and sisters who are searching and hurting, I see no benefit in being tight-lipped and guarded. That’s the way of the IC - maintaining the appearance of religous piety through smug silence. It helps no one.
If I talk too much for you Hungry, just scroll on down.
December 5th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t….:oD
December 5th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Just don’t hit the fast forward when listening to my songs. K?
December 5th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
:o)
December 5th, 2006 at 11:02 pm
Martha Wainwright and another singer whose name I can’t recall recorded a song suitable for both the season and the thread:
The streets are filled with laughter and light
And the music of the season
The merchants’ windows all are bright
With the faces of the children
And the families hurry into their homes
As the sky darkens and freezes
They’ll be gathering soon around hearths and tables
Giving thanks for God’s graces
And the birth of the rebel Jesus
They call Him by the Prince of Peace
And they call Him by the Savior
They pray to Him upon the seas
And in every golden cavern
As they fill His temples with their pride and gold
And their faith in Him increases
But they turn the nature that should worship Him
From a temple to a robbers’ den
In the words of the rebel Jesus
We guard our world with locks and guns
And we guard our fine possessions
And once a year when Christmas comes
We give to our relations
And we might give a little to the poor
If the generosity should seize us
But if any one of us should interfere
In the business of why they are poor
They get the same as the rebel Jesus
Now please, forgive me if I seem
To take the tone of judgment
For I’ve no reason to come between
This day and your enjoyment
In this life of hardship filled with earthly toil
We have need for anything that frees us
So, I bid you pleasure, and I bid you cheer
From a heathen and a pagan
On the side of the rebel Jesus.
December 5th, 2006 at 11:11 pm
Ouch that really hurts! I wonder if the cross we are to bear has a similar sting to it? I suspect it does. I think I need to go work on a splinter in my life right now.
Thanks you for sharing that! Owww…
December 6th, 2006 at 8:49 am
Jiminy,
Great song. The Wainwrights are a talented family for sure, it’s a shame that Rufus is gay and is going to burn for all eternity (sarcasm).
Which album is that on?. I would like to pick it up (if it is inapropriate to mention the title just email it to me).
December 6th, 2006 at 11:13 am
“I do not number party loyalty among my commandments.”
-Theodore Roosevelt
December 6th, 2006 at 11:21 am
A great example of this is when Pastor Wendell cut off the supply of food to CLF’s food ministry in Aberdeen because he was peeved at the elders at CLF for asking for Doug Cotton’s resignation.
Few things that I have seen in my lifetime have hit the level of low as Pastor Wendell’s actions.
December 6th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
You must not get out much!!!!
Cowboy
December 7th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
RP:
The title of the album is:
“The McGarrigle Christmas Hour”
And the songwriter is Jackson Browne. The album is Kate and Anna McGarrigle (Kate is Martha and Rufus’ mom), and it seems to be full of all manner of good stuff….a bit of a family affair, actually. It’s available on Amazon.com for certain. I don’t own the album myself, but became acquainted with this song and several others from the album courtesy of a friend’s annual holiday mix CDs.
Tom: I am of the opinion that if we choose to remove our own blinders as diligently as we can, at every moment, that the light of truth will still dispel the darkness — which is also to say that this is a painful, painful process. Ergo: the ouch.
I have followed your story of late…it seems that you know of this pain firsthand. I was born into then-BT-now-CBC and I remember you and your family very clearly, though I doubt you knew me. I admire the candidness that you offer us here, particularly on the point of “religious addiction.” A friend of mine in college used to describe both herself and me as “orphans of our parents’ spirituality,” and while I don’t necessarily care to mire down in all that, I think these labels are appropriate and helpful insofar as they validate an experience that I think few in the mainstream can grasp. Calling a disorder a disorder when it takes on an ecclesiastical disguise can be incredibly orienting for the sufferers and the onlookers alike.
I for one don’t think that Jesus gets all hung up about what I call myself…and at the risk of playing Franny Glass (of Salinger fame), I’ve gotten pretty comfortable identifying as “a heathen and a pagan on the side of the rebel Jesus.” I’m sort of itching to put this song on the church Christmas program where I work, but I fear the crowd wouldn’t quite see it my way….
December 8th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Jiminy,
Nice to hear from you! Love your posts!
I too prefer to identify myself with the rebel Jesus. I know it sounds strange to many folks but I no longer consider myself to be connected to the stream of history known as Christianity. I do not believe Jesus had any intention that He and His truth would become a world religion to be laid down next to all of the other world religions.
Not that I think it’s all that big a deal, but just to expose the nature of the IC Church and its tendency to create religious “stuff” in its pursuit of becoming a world religion, look at Christmas. There is absolutely no question that Jesus wasn’t born on December 25th. Yet, to assuage the persecutorial inclinations of the Roman empire, and to appear “appeasing and tolerant,” the Church decided to wash up the pagan holidays, and use most of the their symbols and practices, and develop “Christmas.” Now as I said, I don’t make a big deal these days, as to whether folks enjoy the modernized version of Christmas. We’re so conditioned by the history of it, that I suspect it is rather mute to make a big deal about it now, but I’m fascinated with how mankind is so determined to appease folks, when it comes to compromising truth, that they rush headlong into what I refer to as “religious addictions,” in their journey towards becoming religious people.
As a result of it, I find myself like John444, wanting to disconnect from every practice of meaningless Christian religious ways and beliefs, in my pursuit of a simple and pure relationship with Jesus. One of the side benefits of this is that I believe it is healing me of my religious addictions. Now, to be very honest, as JB Purl has to accurately nailed me for, the gusto with which I confront the IC is, in all likelihood, another manifestation of my religious addiction, in that it is still “too important” to me to “BE RIGHT,” and “FIX” the wrong, thus tending to fall headlong into yet another religious addiction. All I can say about that is that I’m convinced Jesus has disconnected me from the IC, and is at the same time communicating to my heart, “Tom, it’s not so much that I’m disconnecting you from the wretched IC, as much as I’m drawing you to ME.”
I suspect some of my passions, in opposition to the IC, represent lingering manifestations of religious addiction, and I desire for that to settle as well. It is one of my many prayer focuses.
That being true, in pursuing the freedom I have in Christ, I have disconnected myself from Christianity as a world religion, Evangelicalism, as a moniker of the champions of inerrancy and the Republican party, as the religous “right,” is scary to me, and I have no taste for “going to Church,” but would prefer to simply “be the Church.”
So, yes, my pain of dealing with my religious addictions is real, and how it hurt my family is real, and how it hurt others is real, as does any physical or psychological addiction. I desire the healing that is only found in Christ, and I don’t want to hang around the “bars / Churches” of our community that would only draw me back into my addictions. Perhaps one day, when I’m a great deal more healed, I will find equal comfort in the Church building setting, as I now find in the simple home non hierarchical settings. I don’t know, we’ll see, but for now I get the shakes just thinking about being in those places. I recently visited a nice “local Church/ of the building variety,” and felt an acute nausea stealing over me. It was very uncomfortable. I suspect I’m still not well yet. I could see my son Tyler, lying on the ground, having taken his life due to the agony my religious addictions, and the accumulative addictions of all the leaders at BT/CBC, and the hypocrisy of his friends who raised their hands in Church and mocked it privately, and who gave him a bag of white flour, because he was acting like a rebel wanting to try drugs, and told him it was some drug he could get a high off of, and then turned him in to Wendell for a public youth group “Crucifying” session. Oh yah, it’s all that sick stuff that makes my heart ache at just approaching those places. All that stuff messed with Tyler’s head ferociously.
Am I a bit reactive? I suppose so. Are all leaders in the IC as addicted as I was? Probably not, but any of that stuff is potent. In all truth, I was reactive to it while I was still at BT, and Dick was never happy with me because of it. It took Tyler’s turning to real drugs to get me off the BT staff, and then 10 months later, after being completely ignored by the BT staff and leadership, and our family literally coming apart at the seams, to realize I needed to get out of there to get well. I thank God every single day He pushed us out of that addictive environment. I pray every day for each of you here on this blog, and the thousands who are watching this blog from a distance, that we will all be delivered from religious addictions, before horrible things happen in your families, like it did in mine.
How totally and pathetically comical it is in one way. Dick used to regularly tell the Church “If you leave BT, you and your family will be gobbled up by the devil.” Isn’t it pathetically sad, that it is all the more likely that if I had left BT, back when my heart “just knew” I should be leaving, that my son “may” well not have descended into the world of drugs and crime, and our family driven to the brink of destruction? My determination to “have my ministry,” caused me to hang in there when I KNEW I should be leaving.
The whole system is finely tuned to encourage religious addictions. The fact that some can go there and not become addicted is a wonderful thing. I’ve seen some I think weren’t too addicted, but I’m not too likely to hang around a heroin den just to see if I can shoot up “just a little” heroin, enjoy “some” of its highs, and avoid becoming addicted. I’m sorry if this offends some of you who “just love” attending your local Church building. I’m just telling my own gruesome story here. You must do what you believe Jesus has told you to do, and if you believe He is telling you to stay where you are then far be it from me to tell you you shouldn’t. I just know I had to get out of it all, and I really doubt He’ll call me back into it again. We’ll see.
So Jiminy, thanks for your kind words of support. To be honest…I probably need kind words of support these days. Losing my precious Tyler breaks my heart every day. Just this morning I lay in bed weeping quietly remembering a fun golf game we enjoyed the summer before he took his life. I really miss him, and in his memory, and in honor to him, I believe I am to follow the rebel Jesus outside the camps of man’s religious institutions, and into the streets and byways where the wounded Tyler’s still live, wounded by Christianity, wounded by the abuses of the devil, wounded by a world system that has lost Jesus.
God bless each of you courageous souls who have settled in your minds that you are not going to lose Jesus just because the religious system burned you deeply. I sat with one of the most courageous young men Wednesday of this week, and watched him tear up a couple times, as he told me of his journey of wounding at his church, and it broke my heart once again. I kept seeing Tyler in his eyes, all throughout our meeting, and I had to literally force myself to not jump up and hug him with joy over the fact that somehow he has worked through so much of the junk that was thrown at him and has maintained a living vibrant dynamic connection to the person of Jesus. How I wish my Tyler could have found his way through it all, and back to Jesus. But you know what…??? I think he did. I think he came to me, two days after his death, and told me, “Dad, it’s ok, it’s ok dad, Jesus is everything you said He was, and soooo much more. I’m ok now. I’m where I belong, and I’m happier than I’ve ever been.” Folks I don’t recommend suicide to any of you, as a means of escaping the ravages of religious wounding and the sins it may have urged you towards, but I pray, in this life, you find the Jesus this young man I met with this week has found, and the Jesus Tyler is now walking with in heaven. Yes I do…and I pray all your bitternesses, agony, pain, and discontent are resolved in Him, in His time. It’s been a hard journey for me and my family…It’s been a hard journey for many of you, but praise God…He is able us keep that which I have committed to Him, with a view to “That Day,” that is fast approaching.
I’d rather find His grace in this life, for the healing of all my confusion, than give up prematurely just to avoid the pain. I know Tyler’s pain was “over the top,” and I ache for his decision, but I see my life stretching out over many years, and many crosses, slowly but surely being conformed to His image, and I don’t plan on cutting that process short, though I certainly understand why Tyler did.
Please, please, please, know that Jesus is bigger and greater and more wonderful than all the religious garbage that has been thrown at you. He is there and He is good!
December 8th, 2006 at 6:29 pm
In an (almost) unrelated thought, and risking embarassment from error, I ask:
Is JB Purl and John444 the same person?
I have such a hard time following who is using a real name and who is using a “masked” name.
Is JB Purl one of the main bloggers on this site?
These are merely curiosity questions, nothing else behind it.
I just don’t have the time to follow leads and clues, and I have a curious mind.
Thanks,
Dan Wood (real name)
December 8th, 2006 at 7:23 pm
Hi Dan,
I’m Jack Helser. My web site is linked by clicking on my screen name, John444. Otherwise, it’s LordYouAre.com. I was born and raised in Auburn, Washington, later moved a whopping 6 miles to Kent, WA and lived there until 1999, when my wife and I moved back to the rural midwest where she’s from. We’re now in Granville, IL, just SE of the big bend in the Illinois River. Surrounded by corn and soy fields. Presently, buried in about 2′ of snow.
It was through a ‘vanity search’ on Google that I found this blog, when one of the bros. posted excerpts from my tithe articles. Their humor was infectious and I’ve enjoyed hanging out. I’m also endeared to anyone who runs a parody web site … the last year I worked for the Boeing company I had a web site called “Parody Songs for the Boeing Slave” and worked out all my corporate angst by writing dozens of anti-corporate parody songs.
My only connection with CBC was hearing Frank preach on “Gate Churches” at the Shiloh Equipping the Prophetic conference in KC, MO the fall of 1999. I had forgotten his sermon until recently, but always remembered how he boasted about taking 4 intercessors with him whenever he travelled whose job was to pray for him continuously. Always struck me as strange.
My own experience in churches as a worship leader, performing songwriter and spirit filled believer in non/anticharismatic churches, showed me just how common religious abuse can be. Responses to my tithe articles has been a real eye-opener too - over the years I’ve heard from a thousand or more people who tell the same story of abuse, guilt, shame and manipulation to extort a tithe from them, and how they were cut off when they don’t.
I’m just glad to be among brothers and sisters who talk and listen to each other, and who are just looking for truth and peace. Concensus here is that I am also Unscrupulous - but you’ll never get me to admit to that.
Jack
December 10th, 2006 at 6:41 am
I have never seen a church yet that was not oriented towards makig money, and I have attended a lot of different churches. That said, some churches seem to EXTORT (Emphasis added) offerings and tithes with extraordinary peer pressure, spending time each and every Sunday citing reams of scripture about why a person should tithe, promising God’s blessings to those who “Sacrificially give” etc.
Nothing in life is free, not even church and salvation, seems to be the lesson plan.
:-(
December 14th, 2006 at 12:18 am
“We think the prettier our house is the more we will be able to help people.”
Good one! You’re right, who wants a pretty house? Lets see…hmmm……oh yeah, I’m guessing the writer of this thread and myself. The majority of the American public enjoy nice things….i.e. food, clothes, cars, houses, businesses, etc. So when it comes to the church building are we supposed to settle for broken down buildings, dirt floors, leaky roofs and carpet squares? If so, I would love to see your house, oh humble servant of God!
The issue is obviously balance. It is possible to be apart of a local church that is environmentally pleasing and outwardly interactive in reaching the non-churched. I personally encounter it on a regular basis. I leave you with three suggestions:
1. Drop the whole, I’m concerned about the poor and needy act. Its clear you use them as an exuse to bitch and moan about your own personal issues regarding particular churches or leaders who have offended you. From there, you have formed unrefined stereotypes of church in general.
2. Sell your house, sell your car, anything of monetary value and give it to the poor. Come on Robin Hood, do it…that will show em!
3. Refer to suggestion one.
December 14th, 2006 at 8:09 am
Dusty,
You don’t have to believe that my intentions are true and you can think I’m full of it. However, I would encourage you to look to your Bible and see what example Jesus set.
1. I won’t drop the whole, “I’m concerned about the poor and needy act”. It’s attitude’s like yours that got the church in the place it is now. No, I stand by what I said.
2. I wish I had the faith to do those things, but I don’t. Also, Robin Hood is a terrible example…try Mother Theresa
3. You should have just left it with 2.
December 14th, 2006 at 8:24 am
Oh Robin, if you prefer Mother Theresa, then Mother Theresa it shall be!
December 14th, 2006 at 8:28 am
For some reason, I am reminded of the Grimm’s Fairy Tale Hansel and Gretel , where the children were attracted to the witches house by it’s decoration, only to be lured inside as food for the woman.
Could that story be a metaphor for the institutional church?
December 14th, 2006 at 8:32 am
Greetings Cowboy.
December 14th, 2006 at 8:58 am
Sam,
Let’s explore your “Greeting Cowboy,” a bit further. You’re not the first one to be suspicious of this.
I’m not automatically going to assume Dustwarrior is, in fact, Cowboy, but for the sake of wondering outloud. What if you are correct? What if, on a number of the blog strings Cowboy is playing “Devils Advocate,” I.e. messing with all our heads, etc., using various created names, to advance arguments.
What would this say to all of us?
1. That our hearts are not worth valuing enough for honest relational exchange?
2. That messing with the minds of believers is something Jesus would do were He blogging here?
3. That there is, in the end, nothing truly worth discussing, and all of life’s issues are nothing more than a joke?
4. That hiding behind numerous pseudonyms, insteading of being an honest and real person, is a healthy way of conducting one’s life in the midst of a believing community?
I don’t know Sam. I sure hope you are wrong. A number of people have suggested Cowboy is doing this. It places us in an awful motive judging area, and I for one don’t want to develop an approach to life that gives me permission to judge motives, so I will suspend final conclusions on this matter, but I would say this:
1. Cowboy, are you messing with us?
2. Do you love us here, or are you simply mocking us for sport?
3. Do you value genuine honesty, an embracing of truth, and love for the brethren?
Are you doing this Cowboy? Would you please address this issue and help us all move forward with attempting to clarify what we believe Jesus believes are valid issues to wrestle through here? If you are doing this would you consider apologizing, stopping the game, and treating us like we really matter? If you’re not doing this would you help us settle this matter so we can move beyond it. I’ll have to admit, the thought has pressed itself within me as well, and I’d like to get rid of that thought if it’s not true.
Cowboy, I’m not assuming you are doing this, but if you are I’m making a genuine appeal to you to stop it.
I for one, truly care about these issues, and if I come to the conclusion this blog is simply the place for egotistical mind messing pathologs, then even though I’d love to continue the dialogues, I just don’t have it to have my heart treated that way.
Help us here Cowboy, would ya?
December 14th, 2006 at 9:14 am
MommaT,
You’re right…attitudes do effect the condition of the church, your’s included. If you were completely honest, you would take a little credit for the “place” it’s in currently. I’m beginning to realize that you and I have had different experiences when it comes to the church. Tell me more about your growing up in a “dark, empty, house”…that sounds scary!
I’m not trying to be rude, you seem like a nice gal.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Identical static IP address, Tom.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Thanks Sam.
I’m not messing with Cowboy’s head at all, when I say I’m truly sorry. I’d love to get to know, and talk to the real Cowboy. I’m sure she has a valuable life story to share here.
Cowboy, if Sam’s got it right I want you to know I’d really like to get to know the real Cowboy.
December 14th, 2006 at 9:55 am
Don’t worry Dustwarrior of Seven Seas….sammy’s a little paranoid about multiple identities. which is obviously never the point…it just appears to be easier for these folks to attack identities rather then content.
i guess you, me and cowboy are equally clever so we’re accused of being one in the same. we could join forces and be like the Trinity….but i have a feeling that would spark too intelligent of a debate for this group.
welcome aboard friend!
December 14th, 2006 at 9:59 am
did you look up mine too sammy? it must be the same as well!!!!!! get a life and realize that cowboy is just smarter then you and you can’t handle it.
do me a favor…fact checker….let me know how many more hits on average you’ve been gettin since cowboy joined. i bet dustwarrior is a lot like me….we both started commenting after we saw cowboy so easily ruffled your panties.
let it go and join in the discussion my boy.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:31 am
Sam,
Because I enjoy dialoguing in this environment, and am sorely tempted to bow out, due to not wanting to be drawn into non real dialogues, can you explain to me how to determine, via static IP addresses, if someone is using various names when blogging?
December 14th, 2006 at 10:41 am
Tom,
Thank you for your loving and charitable response. I pray such a thing is possible, as I would also like to know the real Cowboy.
There is a strange attraction to this blog, as if one says “I feel like I belong here among these ragamuffins, but don’t know how to belong (thanks to my IC wounds)” …
There are only a few prophetic dreams and visions that have stuck with me of the many I’ve read - one being the dream of a soldier wounded in battle, who was so battle scarred, he even fought off the medic who came to treat his wounds. The message in that one seemed to be some wounds must be left to the Lord to heal in the isolation ward; not everyone is fit for the infirmary of relational fellowship.
…
The other lesson I’ve learned from blogging and forums, regardless of the medium of exchange, it is an assembly of the brethren, the Holy Spirit is present in the assembly as are the spiritual gifts He has given, among them the gift of discernment. In the same way the brethren are instructed not to treat prophecies with contempt, it is fitting to say the same for all the other spiritual gifts, among them, discernment. That said, I believe it is the spiritual gift of discernment that is sniffing out the difference between spirit and flesh here, the Father’s will and personal agenda.
To the one, the other stinks.
2 Corinthians 2:14-17 KJV
(14) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savor of his knowledge by us in every place.
(15) For we are unto God a sweet savor of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
(16) To the one we are the savor of death unto death; and to the other the savor of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
(17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Sam
December 14th, 2006 at 10:53 am
I get the idea my reply in “Is This a Trend” may have been better suited for this.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:00 am
Tom, IP fingering is an option available only to the blog administrators (JP and Justin, Henri who set the blog up (?), and myself as a guest blogger).
My only concern is maintaining a safe environment for the people who have come here to share and find some fellowship and affirmation. Where this is the extent of fellowship for some people who have left abusive church situations, posts of a personal attacking nature undermine that fellowship. If the personal attacks were occuring in a house church meeting, it would be dealt with so as not to disrupt the unity of the fellowship. Much harder to deal with it in this medium I’m afraid.
I’m here because there are real brothers and sisters here, whom I have come to consider friends by their sharing and caring, their wit and wisdom.
James 4:7
Sam
December 14th, 2006 at 11:40 am
Thanks Sam. It is folks like you, of which there are many who regularly blog here, who make the dialogues so meaningful.
The wounded heart is a many faceted thing. I’m sure there will come here, those who hide behind a variety of pseudonyms because their personal pain is just too great to risk exposing the real them.
As you said it:
It poses a unique challenge to grasp how to minister to each and every visitor here. In this life the enemy of our souls is such an expert at wounding in an amazing array of wounds.
It is my desire to be one who is enabled by the Spirit to be a piece of the healing process for many.
I love how Isaiah says it:
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
Jesus carried Himself in such a manner, that the broken just knew they were safe wherever He was. I know He was displeased with sin, but the prospect of healing the brokenhearted sinner seemed to captivate His interest, over scourging them for their sin.
I believe it is possible for us to embrace this same ministry of life.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:56 am
To Whom it may concern,
Rest assure, I am Dustwarrior of the Seven Seas and no other. But thank-you for the compliment earlier with the whole multiple identity thing regarding Cowboy. Call us like minded but NOT one in the same. I did however go by the name DUST BUNNY WARRIOR in a previous blog a month or so ago, if that helps. It just didn’t have the ring a was looking for. I think I’ll stick with DUST BUNNY WARRIOR and then when my boy becomes a man, I’ll call him DUST BUNNY WARRIOR II.
Funny stuff if I do say so myself…so let’s continue on and discuss issues facing the world. I thinks its ok to have multiple opinions on this blog, right? It’s possible that others will read these threads and differ in thought and experience…lets not jump the gun and call them “Cowboy”, give others some credit for crying out loud.
Now that I think about it…”The Cowboy Dustwarrior of the Seven Seas” has a nice sound to it…hmmm.
No, I’ll stick to my name.
December 14th, 2006 at 12:12 pm
Dustguy,
If you aren’t Cowboy, explain why you share the same IP address. Are you husband and wife? Boyfriend and girlfriend? Boyfriend and boyfriend? siblings? coworkers?
December 14th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Reformed Pope Said:
So true RP. Your honesty challenges me:
This must be why this blog exists–or at least one of the reasons–to point out the disparity between God’s version of helping people and our version. Some of us want to do something about it to bring change, so we speak up. When we speak up, those who don’t get it yet get furious and call us offended and bitter.
We are all at different stages in the journey of finding out who we truthfully are. God must have it in his mind to get us all beyond the talking into the effectual doing, the real ‘helping’ you were talking about.
December 14th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
I learned long ago that on the internet, when some folks take the exact same positions as others do, all the time, and go to extremes complimenting those other posters who have identical views, it’s usually the same poster.
Ya know?
After all, how many times are you in perfect agreement with EVERYTHING that someone else says?
December 14th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Hi KM ~
I just posted on the citychurch 1.4 million dollar subject about a church here in Boise that is into helping in the true way.
Here are the links I provided. I know it won’t help much as far as getting to go to this church unless you move here, but it may help to know there are some who are methodically getting the real work done and in God’s loving way. At least there’s one that I know of. I’m sure there are others though. I wish we could do some kind of rallying call “Will the real church of Jesus Christ come forward (no matter your political persuasion or gender issues or addictive behaviors or whatnot: ALL who will to the Lord may come!)”
Interview with Bob: http://www.ccboise.org/live/boise/pages/page.asp?SID=4&PageID=45
Our Financial Responsibility
http://www.ccboise.org/live/boise/pages/page.asp?SID=4&PageID=894
Guidelines for Tax-Deductible Giving
http://www.ccboise.org/live/boise/pages/page.asp?SID=4&PageID=423
December 14th, 2006 at 1:14 pm
TCF,
You make an important point, worth expanding a bit.
This blog has been indicted as being nothing more than a bunch of bitter former Church goers. However, while it is certainly possible some of the walking wounded have spoken from bitterness, it is also a clear fact that those who believe their approach to Church is the only divinely ratified approach, are then left with little choice emotionally but to label those who disagree with them - bitter, thus avoiding the real issues.
It’s much easier to do this, because then it means they don’t need to consider the error of their approach, they don’t have to ponder the value of apologizing for their goat ways, they can just sit back smugly and name call.
Conversely, this sword can and should cut both ways. If all we do here is hack at the IC, without acknowledging the fact that good things are happening there too, then we risk being little more than expert mud slingers.
The answer, it seems to me, is to address the true problems with an institutional approach to Church, and only expose specific individuals when those individuals refuse to own the harm they are bringing to the body.
The role of the reformer is not an easy one. Of necessity he/she is a forerunner, and sees things a bit beyond the rest of the pack. Of course, this doesn’t mean everything a forerunner sees is flawless, because forerunners are people. Martin Luther appears to have continued the Catholic Church’s penchant for anti-semitism, but he did accomplish many good things.
If we filter our hearts through Ephesians 4
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
I think this environment proves to be genuinely valuable and healing to many.
I know we revisit this passage often, brought forth by different bloggers here, but it seems worth regular consideration. Why? Because, in pursuing the truths Jesus is bringing us, us - who are imperfect reformers, unlike Jesus - the perfect reformer, we can easily slip into modes of reforming that violate love. The cause is valid, but the end doesn’t justify an unhealthy means. We are called to both love and truth.
I like how Paul says it earlier in Ephesians 4:
15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
And what about those times, when some here don’t speak it in love? Should it be the role of this blog to attempt to humiliate them into the same silence the IC used to shut them up? Is there no place where “some” venting can take place? I’m not trying to encourage carnality, but I for one, want the walking wounded to sound off here. I don’t want them to hear my encouragements towards an Ephesians 4 approach, as a sneeky way of telling them to stuff their pain, and retreat from one of the only environments where their pain will receive some validation.
If pain doesn’t get validated here, then where in Hell is it going to get validated? That use of the word “Hell” was meant as both an expletive and a spiritual geographical location. It’s sure certain they don’t get healed or adequately cared for in many Churches, and Hell certainly isn’t going to be a healing environment for them. I don’t want them to bottle it all up. If some visitors don’t understand, then we who are trying to understand can simply pop back on and remind them the purpose for this blog and where these visitors have strayed into.
I know some will be upset with me for doing what they consider “justifying the flesh,” but I’ll tell you, I’d rather run the risk of that than drive the wounded completely away from the body. You see, I believe that some venting is actually healthy, even if it comes with some expletives, and is not simply a solidifying of a carnal attitude of life.
December 14th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Ooops, that was TCR, not TCF…
December 14th, 2006 at 1:16 pm
I perfectly agree. Looks like you and I are the same. Just kidding friend. If that were the case, I guess this blog community is made up of a handful of people.
December 14th, 2006 at 1:20 pm
This multiple identity thing sure seems to be all-consuming. I can see why Samaritan cares because he helps moderate the blog. But why is this festering obsession growing? Why is everyone suspicious? Maybe BT Beauty’s comment on ignoring it till it destructs is a good idea.
By the way, is this an example of the typical digression pattern the church experiences today? Getting anything of consequence done requires focus, right?
December 14th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
Great thoughts Tom Sparks. I hear you and I agree. We do live in a free country where our forefathers fought long and hard to be able to speak freely. When people try to shut us down, it feels oppressive and like you are in trouble. We shouldn’t have to feel like we’ve been sent to the principals office any longer. Having been a grown up for a long time now, I find it sadly demeaning to have someone try to silence me even if they have some adequate reasons. I’m actually thinking of real life examples rather than blog life however. Yet, those real life things are what cause reactions on the blog right?
December 14th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Wow, I agreed with Pope and with Tom. Does that mean… nevermind, I shall resist the urge to digress!
December 14th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
Toxic,
Amazing…!
All I know is that I “think” I’m beginning to experience Church as Jesus intended, and the freedom, the depth, the reality of it all practically overwhelms me when I consider where I might have remained if I hadn’t been led to see some of things I now see.
When Catalyst, responding to criticism, says he’d like someone to tell him where he could experience a more real gathering of the Church than here, or be a better catalyst for caring for the wounded, as strange as it sounds to some, I have to agree.
I’d be uncomfortable if it was just here, but I experience Church here, in coffee shops, in my living room, and a variety of places, and it blows my mind to see Jesus working in all of them.
December 14th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
Yeah, I feel kindred with some of you too. We have similar layers that we are shedding, but beyond that, perhaps similar motivations to stay simple before God and man and not take ourselves so seriously (thus the funny stuff on the blog). I do feel like the Lord has taken me back to my beginnings with him, that I know nothing and feel (with relief) that I am no one but his child and I better learn to get along with his other children whom he loves equally with no more or no less ‘favor’ than I. So, right on to having church wherever you are because that’s what he wants I think. I don’t presume to know, I just think.
If you’d rather call me a short name, I think I like Refugee better than Toxic since I’m trying to get the toxins out if you know what I mean.
December 14th, 2006 at 2:33 pm
Refugee,
That reminds me of a story…
As the PBC receptionist my wife often typed the teachers notes for handouts.
One day, while typing up some notes one of the PBC professors had prepared (to protect the innocent, I won’t mention which one…) relating to Steven Arterburn’s book, “Toxic Faith,” which this professor was discussing with his class, she said, “___” I’m really uncomfortable with typing up this list of signs of toxic faith. I’m seeing way too many of these applying to BT.”
His comment, was something to the effect of “I know…don’t say that too loudly”
Hmmmm. Sorry for using “Toxic” when referring to you. I often find myself asking the Lord how toxic I still am. A very discomforting question. I can’t imagine it’s all gone yet…
December 14th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Heh … Toxic is introduced externally - (it is not what goes into a man that defiles him) - it’s being caustic we gotta watch out for (it’s what comes out of a man what defiles him).
December 14th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
So I’m finding out, Scrupe. Didn’t know I had so much of it in me! Letting it fly certainly allows it to flow to anyone anywhere, so am relearning the ‘less is more’ approach (not just on the blog) and having better feelings about myself now that I’m reigning it in a bit more.
No worries at all Tom. I knew you weren’t meaning anything. I adopted that handle aftr reading the Toxic Churches book so the emphasis was on my exodus.
Well signing off now guys, but will talk tomorrow. It’s been great!
December 14th, 2006 at 8:58 pm
Tom,
I am at loss of words!!! I have no idea who these people are? You are more level-headed than that………I have been “flying” all day and can validate this fact…….
The “issue” is that most on this blog are “doubles” but not I………….I am one on this blog, not two or three like many others…….
And I say this with all the integrity that I have………
December 14th, 2006 at 9:14 pm
What???? I have had my computer “all” day with me……so if someone jacked my computer, it is news to me………..
I have one identity; I say this before G-d…………………
Good Lord you guys are inordinately suspicious!!! Tom, you know better………………..I disagree with you on many theological points but because I value ontological “freedom”, or free will, I will not dishonor this blog or the virtues of “freedom” by “faking” an identity…………
December 15th, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Well said. I still don’t think your going to make them believers. I find it interesting that others who clearly have multiple user names are not questioned about it, as long as they agree with the thoughts and ideas expressed by the majority of this blog community. BUT, the moment you disagree…their on you like fly’s on poop. Oh well.
December 16th, 2006 at 5:57 am
Did I mention that when some posters are 100% in agreement with others it is usually a sign that those posters are the same person? That is based on my internet experience, which goes back quite a few years now.
Agreement between 2 different people, 100% of the time, is un-natural.
December 16th, 2006 at 6:57 am
Concerning Dustwarrior of Seven Seas (formerly Fighting Dust Warrior III), Rae, and Cowboy, ALL have posted from IP:
Who is Electric Lightwave Inc, of Vancouver, WA. Name server: ELI.NET, ISP name either INTEGRATELCOM.COM or INTEGRA.COM.
They are largely a broadband home/residential ISP in Portland/Vancouver near as I can tell.
Those of you who sniffed out the fakery of Cowboy, Rae and Dusty, congratulations, your discernment is working.
As for multiple user IDs, I’m OK with that, but there is a difference that apparently escapes our intelligent multiple friend. This is a parody blog first, and multiple IDs are typically used for comic relief. Cowboy (et al) and Holli (et al) from a few monthys ago, are the only ones I can recall who used multiple IDs to habitually bash legitimate posters AND then heardily agree with each other as if to create the appearance of overwhelming disapproval of legitimate sharing.
Cowboy, you’re welcome here as far as I’m concerned, but please, don’t walk into a burn unit and yell fire, if you know what I mean?
Sam
December 16th, 2006 at 7:03 am
Why am I not surprised.
December 16th, 2006 at 7:16 am
okay so this blog has basically gone from Sheep and goats” to “tech talk”… and yes I’m sure this issue needed to be addressed but it sure filled up my inbox. There’s no question I would love to be among those who share the basic teaching of Messiah Y’shua, the basic concepts of “agape’”, and who have shed the facade of religion for something real. If there’s a problem with a mulitple poster here, so be it. you can make your own decision of what you hink regardless of who posts what. Sheep, goat or lemming?
December 16th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
Matt writes:
True - many have sniffed this out for themselves, still several people who have invested in the community here in honesty and sincerity, have done the same with Cowboy, who has not responded in kind.
The IP demonstrates Cowboy and Dust Warrior and Rae are posting from the same machine. They are either the same person, or 2 or more people using the same machine with an agenda of some sort.
That said, Cowboy wrote above:
Followed by Dusty who wrote:
Believers in what? We’re already believers in Christ Jesus.
Smells like an agenda for proselytizing to me, or perhaps someone who just likes to argue? What’s the Bible say about contentiousness? Didn’t Paul say that the meetings in Corinth did more harm than good because of the strife and contentiousness there? In other words, if the aim of people who are meeting is to argue and best one another, why meet at all? How does unity factor in? Loving one another?
It is a difficult subject for certain; all the flailing about in argument and contention really just goes to show that we all need to do more cross time. It’s the cross that makes us see the truth of Philippians 3:4-10.
Short version: Everything is BS except for Christ and Him crucified.
What becomes of the arguments and contentiousness when we look upon it all from the cross with Christ?
I don’t know the answer to this, but would ask are any of our arguments and contentiousness rooted in the Spirit? Or are they all rooted in the flesh? I don’t know.
Sam
December 17th, 2006 at 10:20 am
You should follow your own advice…………Jesus Christ and no bull#@!?
Bro, you make me laugh,even though Ifeel sorry for you,when you make comments about discernment!!! Mr.Hound,you’re sniffing is all messed up!!! Man, you crack me up…
I have one identity………..and no one shares my “IP” address……Sorry,maybe you need to go back to discernment school,young man….
Most charitably,cowboy
December 17th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Does anyone here ever watch those reality police shows on TV?
It seems to me that every time someone there gets caught red-handed, the very first thing they say is:
“That’s not mine!”
August 7th, 2007 at 9:39 am
[…] working to help those in need and instead focus mainly on themselves (see my previous rant here). Permalink | Add a comment? | […]
August 7th, 2007 at 11:29 am
I think everyone here has great insight. Maybe you are being called by the Holy Spirit to re-create the Acts Church as you see it. You can start your own church and build it in the way you want. I am sure because you do not believe in the Tithe that God will provide all the money you will ever need for your ministry. I am sure because your doing it with the right heart that healing will be abundant and with each healing 3000 will be saved and come to the church. It will be a great thing.
I myself do not have the time, energy or organization to do such great work for God. So I will be a servant in my “Goat Church” and assist them (along with the 10000 other members) to do as much as we can to assist the poor and help people in my local city get saved. Eventually I will (along with my wife and family) will become missionaries with another already (but probably not perfect) created mission.
Maybe if your right about all this .. I will be more blessed because of my servant hood and let others be accountable for their actions. If they misappropriate funds well let that be for them to be judged. If they hurt the body let that be on them. I am not going to blog about everyone else who is trying to build God’s kingdom and not do anything myself. To me that is just being disruptive.
August 7th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Your sarcasm is making me think about this……………
August 9th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Former NBCC Member said:
NBCC,
The collective church has been led to believe (duped) that speaking out about the dysfunction of the church is disruptive so I can see why you think speaking up on a blog is a waste of time and causes ’strife’ i.e. disruptive. Like anyone anywhere, you are entitled to your opinion.
However, it’s kinda rude to imply that bloggers are only whiners that don’t do anything to change what they see as wrong in the church.
Could it be that blogging is a first step in bringing change therefore it is a good thing?
You may not want to be so quick to underestimate the power of the written word and the exchange of ideas that can be shared instantaneously online. You may not be into it, and lately I haven’t had time for it. But that doesn’t nullify the fact that this kind of forum brings change. The sparring of ideas that motivates us out of the box (which is usually inside the church) to go outside and put feet on our voices, our money and hopefully our compassion to help those God leads us to isn’t really such an unrighteous thing.
Former NBCC Member also said:
Wow. well said if you are into being self righteous and callous. No wonder people who aren’t Christians lump us all together as irresponsible, gullible and narrow minded. Irresponsible because much of the church assumes that once we give our money it’s only up to God to steward it and we are to say nothing if funds are misappropriated. Gullible because we give our money too readily, under pressure and obligation, and unwisely to leaders that choose to use the money to pimp their lifestyles. Narrow minded because we tend to sound pompous and self righteous when we speak to others about why our way is the only right way especially to each other.