A Public Apology
Posted on December 20th, 2006 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized categoryI need to apologize. I have been emailing back and forth with a pastor from CBC and I realized something interesting…City Bible Church and City Business Church are really quite a bit alike (I know, I know, now I need to apologize to a whole new group of people).
I believe that both Bible and Blog churches have good intentions (that could be debated from either side but just go with me for a moment). The problem is that in order to get through to find those "good intentions" you have to wade through a bunch of crap. When I am honest with myself I will admit that a lot of what I have written was done with the wrong "heart". I believe it is important, as Christians, to be able to admit when you have done something wrong. I am not saying that we can not have a website dedicated to holding the church accountable, but we need to examine why we are doing it.
Many people have been offended by the words written on this blog. I have sent personal apology letters to those who I know are offended, but feel that there are others out there that need to hear it as well. I wish I could make this a specific and personal apology, but for now this will have to do.
In the past, my intentions have not always been good. Some of the things I have said were written with the intent to attack and humiliate others. Please forgive me. If anyone reading this has felt hurt by me, please send me an email so I can try to make things right.
-Johnpaul
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December 20th, 2006 at 4:17 pm
“Reformed Pope said:
October 10th, 2006 at 11:01 am
In effect, personal blogs are becoming a shopping catalog for pedophiles!
So Locutus…what interest do you have in our website?”
This is my personal favorite. I’ll accept the blanket apology and spare you the inbox space that’s sure to be in short supply very soon.
December 20th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Christmas spirit can be such a pain in the ass.
December 20th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Well, that’s a new development.
December 20th, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Don’t be sorry.
December 21st, 2006 at 8:34 am
Johnpaul,
Way to lead by example, I just hope others follow it. I know I have said some bullcrap in haste here, so I am right with you. Let’s forget about putting Christ back in Christmas and just put Christ back in our Christian lives.
December 21st, 2006 at 8:52 am
Since you have been talking with a pastor at City Bible to come to this conclusion, I took at look at their site to see if there was a similar public apology issued to all the people at City Business whom they’ve robbed and abused, but I didn’t see one, Johnpaul.
Well damn you to hell
for expressing your pain, JP 
Apparently, you’re just supposed smile and say nice things about them while they heap more abuse on you.
Man, that City Bible is one screwed up church. And to think people trust their spiritual welfare to pastors who have it SO completely backwards.
What a bunch of shameless bastards.
‘Scrupe
December 21st, 2006 at 8:59 am
Scrupe, do you eat with the same hands you type with?
December 21st, 2006 at 9:01 am
'Scrupe…
It's not what others do to you, it's what you do to others.
Can we just let my apology stand… at least for one day.
Oh, and Locutus…I'm sorry…
…for making you laugh.
December 21st, 2006 at 9:08 am
Okay, people, change of subject. Is anyone else depressed that an end to an era has approached!? Coffee People is closing down all locations in early January, and those great little Motor Mochas will become drive-through Starbucks. I’ve used the one on Powell the most, and it will depress my little heart to see STARBUCKS there now. Coffee People has been a big part of my life since coming to Portland 12 years ago, and lots it was coffee coolers & velvet hammers with cups full of gummy bears that helped get me through PBC classes. My Dad once opened my checkbook in those days to find 2-3 dollar checks all written to Coffee People. It is truly an end to an era. Welcome to the era of corporate uniformity. –KK
December 21st, 2006 at 9:11 am
Well, I’m certain Starbucks will issue an apology. Hey, speaking of apologies…
December 21st, 2006 at 9:12 am
We’re back on topic now. (You’re all welcome.)
December 21st, 2006 at 9:13 am
Although I’ve never been personally offended by YOU, JohnPaul, I really appreciate your genuine effort to make things right with CBC. I agree with Jeremiah, regardless of the effect any church has had on our lives, whether negative or positive, keeping ourselves in line with God’s Word is the right thing to do. I think we all know that, but our human nature must be reminded of this constantly - thank you for the reminder!
Sincerely,
ChurchGirl
December 21st, 2006 at 9:15 am
I’m upset…and I hate paying $3 for a lousy cup of coffee…but when I do, I want it to be Coffee People.
Starbucks coffee always tastes watery to me.
December 21st, 2006 at 9:20 am
This is not corporate uniformity but a reforming, time for all of us to grow up a little bit. Sorry if this is not as fun, but taking responsibilty is always a good thing and why should the blog to wait for CBC to do so.
“I’d rather go hunting with Dick Cheney than driving with Ted Kennedy”
Whatever that means. jeremiah
December 21st, 2006 at 9:22 am
for me, i’m not sorry at all. i have nothing to be sorry for, and refuse to back down on anything i’ve said here, as most of what i’ve said is pretty central to my sense of beliefs & morals. what i am sorry for is that coffee people is no longer, that starbucks coffee (like John-Paul said) is watery, and they are taking over like the flesh-eating bacteria that won’t stop without an amputation. does anyone have any ideas that might contribute to the demise & bankruptcy of starbucks? maybe teaching people what REAL coffee tastes like? –karli
December 21st, 2006 at 9:24 am
jeremiah–i grew up a long time ago when i left cbc, forfeited a huge part of my social life, and walked with my head held high when just about everyone i encountered from there said that i had backslidden or judged me harshly when i told them i no longer attended church. they don’t deserve an apology. –karli
December 21st, 2006 at 9:54 am
Karli said: …maybe teaching people what REAL coffee tastes like?
Okay, this has gotten completely off target, but I can’t stand it any longer. Karli, you’re right about the suckiness of Starbucks, although as far as I’m concerned, it isn’t because they’re corporate; it’s simply because their coffee tastes like gutter drippings. However, “Coffee Pee” isn’t all that different. Whatever black stuff they put in your cup over there was not real coffee; it was a hybrid concoction of sour beans and chemicals. You’ve been fleeced. You might want to go to Stumptown or Ristretto sometime and figure out why.
It isn’t that they’re “corporate” that makes Starbucks awful; it’s their awful coffee. Similarly, it isn’t that they’re from CBC that makes those people who treated you harshly wrong; it’s because they acted like buttholes. However, not all CBC attenders are buttholes, not all PBC students are buttholes, certainly not all Christians are buttholes (even the fundies), and not all churches are characterized by buttholes.
Justice would demand that those who acted like buttholes to you should be fully paid back in kind. However, the true and genuine spirit of apologia and forgiveness are offered under the prevailing wind of grace, not justice. When eternal life was extended to you and me, it wasn’t because we deserved it; it was offered despite the fact that you and I act like buttholes to God.
And yet, he still is so beautifully faithful to forgive us.
December 21st, 2006 at 10:10 am
You can read about it here.
December 21st, 2006 at 10:11 am
Karli-
the reference towards growing up was toward the whole blog, sorry that it seemed that I was calling you out.
CBC may not deserve an apology from you in particular but Johnpaul was speaking as a “leader” of the blog in general, in regards to what he knew in his own heart, between himself and God, was wrong intended.
December 21st, 2006 at 10:25 am
JohnPaul, If your heart attitude needs adjustment — that’s between you and God.
I think you have done a good job of attempting the Matt. 18 thing. It may not have been done perfectly or maturely, but in essence you followed the guidelines.
First, you went to the person — or at least tried to — in PF’s case, he’s too insulated. Marc Estes had to stand in. Then you took your 2-300 witnesses (that’s us). Neither of those had any effect, so you stop trying to reconcile.
In their opinion, they are never wrong (they have not sinned). When someone (or a cadre of someones) is in the place of being unwilling to examine their actions in the light of Scripture, then calling them to account is not wrong. Go read Ezekiel 34, Matthew 23, etc.
Remember that their skill is in making people feel guilty, and thereby removing all resistance. Don’t succumb. Don’t. Please. It’s hard. I know.
Good job on keeping your heart right with God.
Locutus: as Hugh would say, “Resistance is NOT futile.”
December 21st, 2006 at 10:58 am
Apology accepted. Thank you.
December 21st, 2006 at 10:58 am
Anna,
It really has nothing to do with what they have done. I know the difference between “trying to reform” and “trying to destruct”. My apology is meant for those times that I was “trying to destruct”.
I have not given up on my reforming efforts, but when we are wrong we need to be able to admit it and ask for forgiveness…regardless of how we have been treated.
I hope that makes sense.
December 21st, 2006 at 11:21 am
Starbucks, Tully’s, Boyds, Coffee People, Dutch Brothers it is all the same.
Lets all talk trash about the big coffee companys so we can feel good about driving out of our way to get our new trendy Stumptown Coffee.
December 21st, 2006 at 11:57 am
Sure bro, I admire you for it. I’m just completely flabbergasted by it all. I’ve seen this drama play out SO many times. The play always turns out the same, only the names of the characters change.
See, we can’t even talk about it for real. You stood up for what is right, tried to hold accountable, expressed your feelings in the matter, and wind up apologizing because sometimes your expression of what you felt or account of what was done to your wrongfully, was less than purely motivated or just wasn’t eloquent enough. In the end, they’re still aloof, insular, unapologetic, and now everyone plays it safe, talking about coffee.
Good grief.
I’m not saying you should not have apologized, but, it is all so very one-sided and exceedingly warped.
Catch ya later my friend.
‘Scrupe
December 21st, 2006 at 12:00 pm
Johnpaul, I appreciate the fact that you have the right kind of “heart” to consider the feelings of others. It shows that you’re not just out to hurt people.
On the other hand, I can’t recall any blog posts or comments that were particularly mean-spirited that made me say “JP, you went too far that time”. I remember cautioning you and Cat in the early days not to post anything unfounded and to keep it in the spirit of satire. Even those things that seemed like outlandish rumors turned out to be true as story after story of people coming forward have confirmed all the mischief at CBC.
For every person that has commented on the blog about how we are all bitter and don’t follow the Christian model for resolving offenses, we have people like yourself and other high profile former CBCers like David Mackin who have detailed their journey of attempts at reconciliation only to be rebuffed and told that you are wrong and they are right and those that object are pushed out. I would venture to guess that the stories of induced guilt and rejection told here are only the tip of the iceberg. The Christian thing to do at this point is to decry the wrongdoing against God’s people in the hopes that they will change or that others will be spared the hurt. And if we get to poke fun at them while we do it, then I won’t ever feel guilty about that. And I don’t think you should either, but that is between you and the Holy Spirit. Whoever this person at CBC is, I hardly think they have the right to guilt you to an apology when they are unwilling to even consider that you might be right regardless of how you say it.
I am going to say something really controversial here, and I know that some of you are going to react violently. And I don’t say it to puff myself up or to brown nose the Mortons. Part of the reason why I choose to remain anonymous is because I don’t want people looking at me - I want them looking at the folly and sin of CBC leadership. This public denunciation is more than just some conscientious objectors getting together to blog about how bad it is. In a way, I feel that this blog has become the prophetic instrument of God to have a public and written warning against the leadership of CBC and the like. (Whether they read it is another story.) When the people of God, via the Holy Spirit, are all reaching the same conclusions about the sins of the Church and they publicly cry out against it - well, that seems prophetic to me. I’m not about to predict any kind of judgment against them and I will leave that up to God. But I can’t help but wonder if blogging is the new prophecy!
December 21st, 2006 at 12:17 pm
That makes sense to me.
My mother says there is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and DESTRUCTIVE criticism.
There’s a HUGE difference between the two.
December 21st, 2006 at 12:30 pm
Example of constructive criticism:
“pastor wendell smith might want to re-address his policy of not allowing CLF’s “The Lord’s Pantry” access to the over-abundance of food that The City Church has in it’s huge warehouse. After all, it’s the Christian thing to do to turn the other cheek, and this apparant retaliation against CLF makes it appear that pastor wendell smith is using the food for the poor as a weapon of retaliation against CLF.”
Versus destructive criticism:
“wendell smith likes doug cotton, they are both members of M.F.I., and wendell smith allegedly supplied doug cotton with a lawyer, in spite of the teaching about not suing one-another.
Because the CLF elders had the courage to ask for doug cotton’s resignation ANYWAY, due to the enormous amounts of sworn testimony about doug cotton allegedly repeatedly losing his temper, making inappropriate sexual comments to females and allegedly physically assaulting a person, pastor wendell smith allegedly decided on a course of petty vindictiveness which only hurts the poor and starving in Grays Harbor.
pastor wendell smith is violating not only Jesus’ teachings about feeding the poor, but he may be doing so because of his apparant petty vindictiveness towards the elders at CLF.”
December 21st, 2006 at 12:37 pm
You say “to-may-to” I say “to-mah-to”. It doesn’t change what they’ve done and saying it in a PC fashion isn’t as funny.
December 21st, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Personally, I hate having to use the word “Alleged” in my writing, but I am enough of a realist to know that some people will sue other people for speaking the truth.
December 21st, 2006 at 12:57 pm
Johnpaul,
Thanks! Thanks for your humility, your spirit of reconciliation, and for owning what He is saying to you internally. But, also thanks for your continued commitment to hold CBC and the entire IC to a level of accountability that is 100% IMPOSSIBLE inside any one of those places.
We would never be heard there. We would be intimidated, threatened, maligned, and treated like rebels, and all just because we see different things than they do.
The very fact that open discussion is not allowed in such environments is just about all the indictment that needs to be leveled at them. The fact that it could even be said, “Look, if you don’t like what we teach here why don’t you just go to some other Church,” is an unbelievable dishonoring of the Head of the household of faith - the Lord Jesus Christ.
The reality is the Church is not a place. It is a people. It ought not to be possible to push someone “out of a Church.” When the body comes to recognize the Church is a living organism, and not a place, but a people, and not a building, then we will stop talking and acting in such ways. Even if I don’t agree with you or like you, you are my family. We are one body, not many Church buildings. We have one Head, not many senior pastors, no matter what they teach. We are one in Him, and until we respect the unity of the body, and stop artificially creating systems, in which we can drive people out of our little Church clubs, the Church will fail its true identity.
To the fingers and toes at CBC, you need us the elbows, and knees of this blog. We are your brothers and sisters. We are the family of God, in its many living expressions. You may be able to push us out of your buildings but we are still the Church, still His body, still your brothers and sisters, and we will hold you accountable. When you finally awaken to this you will remove the shadow images that keep us from one another. You will dismantle a system that even makes it possible to think about pushing people out of your structures.
The ONLY concept the apostles communicated, as regards “disfellowshipping,” had nothing to do with removing someone from a building, and had everything to do with completely severing them from the living organism of the worldwide body of Christ. Now that is excommunication, and that is functionally impossible so long as the “Church is a Building” concept remains.
We are voices in the wilderness calling “make straigth the paths of the Lord - create a highway in the wilderness for Him.” This is our calling and to this we will be faithful, even if our brothers who embrace a “Church in Box” don’t appreciate us.
Tom
December 21st, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Sort of how Jesus was treated at the Temple?
December 21st, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Yes, exactly! And if we ever expect to be treated differently by those who cling to the Traditions of the elders and the doctrines of men, then we don’t understand why Jesus was mistreated by them.
Tucked inside each of our hearts is a little Pharisee just waiting to express himself. He shows his ugly head in me often. Should it surprise us if he shows up in the IC? Nevertheless, we will either capitulate to the Pharisee within and the Pharisee without, or we will allow the Spirit to expose him wherever he surfaces, for the good of the Kingdom and the honoring of the King, and then walk in truth. God help us…!
December 21st, 2006 at 1:25 pm
I love how Peter says it:
1Pe 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,
1Pe 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
December 21st, 2006 at 2:14 pm
My respect for you johnpaul is growing……….well done…….
I think humility is the virtue that makes “christian spirituality” robust and dynamic…..and you have exhibited this characteristic to all…..
December 21st, 2006 at 3:41 pm
You are not sorry. This blog is still up and running.
December 21st, 2006 at 3:44 pm
So are those churches.
December 21st, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Since you are Never Reforming, what are you here for? Are you suggesting that the blog and its owners do that which you are unwililng to do? Sounds just like an IC pastor, to me.
Sam
December 21st, 2006 at 3:46 pm
LOL!
Excellent point!
December 21st, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Why put a blog about a few crappy churchs and call it like it is and then post an apology? Who cares if people are offended by it? That’s all I meant.
December 21st, 2006 at 10:47 pm
johnpaul,
i don’t think we’re as different as i previously assumed….anyone who believes there is a need for an apology and does it, is someone i hold in high regard. have a merry christmas.
thanks,
rae
December 21st, 2006 at 11:02 pm
…And God bless us, every one.
December 22nd, 2006 at 6:07 pm
I think Jesus dying for us all would count as the most one sided action in all of history. Not a bad example to follow.
December 24th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Jesus one-sided action was forgiveness, not apology.
Sam
December 25th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
Watch out Sam you are on the verge of sounding bitter. Merry Christmas. jeremiah
December 26th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
This religious stuff is stickier than honey on toast!
We have watched several friends break free from religiousness from our MFI churchs this past year and it is a study in human behavior. They take one step
out than Tommy Tenney comes to town and they get religious for 10 more weeks. They get pushed around and abused again and give us a call to have us pray for them because they feel like they are going crazy. They get real and then call back the next day feeling condemned saying ‘ I didn’t mean to say anything bad about our leaders.’ Back and forth –up and down–
the process of getting real and totally unstuck is not an easy one. Everytime someone goes back down into the water after a phone call or sermon,
we pray they will resurface and breath the air once again.
When they do and finally get free –nothing is better to watch. The joy that comes from knowing ‘hey I wasn’t crazy–this system was wacked’ is
worth all the struggles. It can happen to any of us at any time and its up to our friends to help yet once again –set us free from religiousness. Just
some observations at the end of a year.
Saying for 2007–When the pain of staying where you are is worse than the pain of change –then you will change. Happy New Year bloggers.
December 26th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Well, the choice is attempt to change it, and if you cannot, decide to live with it or leave.
The problem is that by financially supporting them while attempting to change it, you give them ammunition to use against you.
December 26th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
Please lets get real and stay real.
Is there something that brought on this apology specifically you can share–yea we already know. Sometimes the right person talking to us at a time when we are feeling a bit down or insecure can make us doubt all the good we ever accomplished in helping others get free.
This reminds me of Jesus time in the garden before He went to the cross. There is often pain and anguish right before we are to accomplish our most important work. Apologizing for our actions isn’t wrong –but brother when this group of
real people in the Lord pick up on your guilt meter than something is wrong here. Sounds like someone did a number on you. How do we know -because we have experienced it ourselves. Iron sharpens iron.
Don’t stop but keep going –speaking the truth in love and fun and comments that are designed to make us perk up and listen.
You have done more good than you know or will ever know till heaven.
Please go on and be more real than you ever thought possible.
December 26th, 2006 at 6:37 pm
JP and Justin, has anyone ever mentioned that City Bible, City Church, etc., has intercessors who actively pray against the CBC blog?
Sam
December 26th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Free at Last said:
Amen!
December 26th, 2006 at 7:28 pm
Has anyone mentioned there are intercessors on here who pray that the
truth will set others free?
December 26th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Where do you think we learned to pray ? All those hours in the prayer room
had to have some good result. We saw the writing on the wall –most
literally.
December 26th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
There are actual churches that teach doing things the right way — accountability -giving to the poor–not acting superior to your congregation.
Just thought you’d like to know there is life outside this fishbowl.
December 26th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
One comment I do like from Joyce Meyers for intercessor types is
Before you get into warfare and run to prayer conferences
first try to get some authority over the dishes in your sink!
December 27th, 2006 at 6:55 am
THANK GOD!!!
December 27th, 2006 at 11:43 am
I agree, it’s the conclusion we all have to come to sooner or later. I guess pain is unavoidable no matter what; but it feels much better to be proactive and doing something new. Change and hope go together. When you stay in pain out of fear, hopelessness ensues because you are in a holding pattern of going nowhere.
Also, RP, amen to keeping your heart right before God, as long as you do not allow your conversations with those whose thinking is off kilter to cause you to second guess yourself. We all default to that when we see through their clouded eyes. And perhaps, even when you said caustic things it was out of angst still within you from years of wierdness so getting it out helped get it out. Who knows if Jesus is more interested in that than he is in your apology. Only He knows.