On Faith
Posted on December 29th, 2006 by catalyst into the Other Blogs categoryNewsweek and The Washington Post have created a website called On Faith. It's a site dedicated to discussing Religious issues. Think of it as this blog without all the sarcasm and profanity. (And fun. It's kind of boring.)
On the site, Cal Thomas posted a short blog discussing atheism called the Atheist Wager. I suspect this is Cal's response to Sam Harris' book Letter to a Christian Nation, which makes the argument for atheism.
(Side note: So many people have mentioned it to me, I hope to read Letter to a Christian Nation one of these days. I have a short window of reading time after the college football season ends, and before March Madness begins and I'm going to try to fit it in then. Though I'll probably just get involved in the MTV trainwreck that is The Real World: Denver.)
Anyway, here's Cal's take on Atheism:
In conversing with an atheist, it is important to understand that such a person will never be brought to faith by information alone, because the same information is available to everyone. If information were sufficient to make a believer out of an atheist, then all would believe.
It takes more faith not to believe in God than to believe in Him. It is also intellectually lazy. You have to believe the vastness of the universe “happened” without a Designer and that unique things like fingerprints and snowflakes occurred by pure chance.
An atheist wagers his or her present and eternal future that he or she is right. If the atheist is right and there is no God, there are no consequences. But if the atheist is wrong and there is a God and a Heaven for those who come to Him on His terms, and a Hell for those who reject Him, then that has the most important consequences.
I do not have the power to persuade anyone that God is, but I can demonstrate the difference He has made in my life and relationships – including with atheists – and pray that the One who brought me to belief will do so with them.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I thought I'd throw this out to our readers to get their take. Let me just say I think Cal oversimplifies Faith. Also, Cal better hope that the Muslim's are wrong. Because if they're right, he's still going to Hell.
RSS feed for posts
December 30th, 2006 at 8:10 am
I have never been a fan of arguing anyone into anything. That doesn’t mean I haven’t engaged in the generally worthless method, but I have seen meager results from it.
I find what the writer of Hebrews says as particularly instructive in this vein:
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Jesus, rather than touring Israel, on an “argue fest of convincing them He was God mission,” seemed rather to be looking for those who had been prepared by God to receive Him, and accepted that the rest were not going to buy into His message. You would have thought, given who He was and His amazing intellect, and way with words, that He would have taken them on, and argued their illogic into the ground, but instead He spoke short sentences of truth, and left it at that:
Apparently it takes inner ears to hear, and not everyone has those ears:
Mark 7:15 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15“There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Matthew 13:10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12“For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14“And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
16“But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17“for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
I have found that answering honest and truly heart inquisitive questions has been fruitful, but generally I find the old adage “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still,” still applies.
December 30th, 2006 at 9:04 am
Good point, Tom. When I was just a boy, my grandpa used to take me fishing on a lake that was formerly used as a log pond. He knew the lake well and rowed us out to the spots he’d had success before. We’d settle in for a day of fishing with a simple hook, worm and cork bobber set up. I remember times on that lake where we could hardly bait the hook fast enough to keep up with the ‘bite’. At other times, the fish were completely indifferent to our attempts to ‘lure’ them in. When you fish that way, it is obvious that catching fish is entirely dependent on their hunger.
It seems like some of our evangelism methods try to create an artificial hunger in people, or we try to fish for people who aren’t hungry?
The scripture suggests that our “bait” is the hope we exude. We know we have a “bite” when someone asks us about our hope.
Many years ago, the Lord gave me a strange fishing dream, wherein he took me to the river and instructed me on fishing from the rock. After catching and releasing just one fish with a fishing pole and lure, I came to understand that I wouldn’t need a fishing pole and lure anymore, but that the fish would come to me because I had treated the 1st one I caught, healed and released well. In stark contrast to the catch, heal and release method of fishing from the rock that the Lord taught me, there were 2 determined fishermen up stream who were fishing from a sand bar, using gaffs. They were quite literally gaffing and jerking fish out of the ‘river of life’ to keep for themselves - trophy hunters.
It’s hard to figure for me Tom, why evangelicals have the view of “outreach” that they have - it’s not at all like the example Jesus set. Their notion of evangelism and methoids need a complete re-think and overhaul.
Catalyst, this statement in the article gives me gas:
That seems like a regurgitation of christian-ese / platitudes. I mean, do Christians have a faith-o-meter that they can state with such blind confidence that it take more faith not to believe, than believe in God? Or to gush over snowflakes and fingerprints? That kind of crap makes Christians sound like programmed morons, because so many people resort to that kind of rhetoric.
What ever happened to “tongues is a sign for unbelievers” type of proof? Where the unbeliever walks into an assembly where people are prophesying by the Spirit and the heart of the unbeliever is laid bare? The point seems to be that the Spirit of God is more than able to convince people of His existence. So why do we allow our fleshly zeal to consume us so, that we resort to argument / debate based evangelism?
Jesus said “if I am lifted up on the earth, I will draw all men unto myself”. Why don’t we trust Him to do the drawing like He says?
How many of us have been fishing from that sand bar, helping hirelings gaff believers from the River of Life, to feast on them?
Jack
December 30th, 2006 at 9:18 am
John444,
It has always seemed to me to be such a weird thing to use powerful rhetoric, oratorical skills, theatrics, and all the other “gaffing” approaches, when just simply loving people is the pollen bees/humans appreciate the most, in making honey.
I’m not saying there is no place for preaching powerfully. Paul seems to have been led of the Spirit to do so, with great success. Revelational preaching does have its place, but for the majority of us, who will never stand before large crowds, we can all manifest tangible love to the lost around us.
December 30th, 2006 at 9:54 pm
I think too often the whole point of evangelism is confused…..
“The Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” Luke 19:10
“…on some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by flesh” Jude 1:22-23
“Let him know that he who saves a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and cover a multitude of sins” James 5:20
“When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I shall require at your hand” Ezekiel 3:18
“…with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not recieve the love of the truth that they might be saved…..that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thessalonians 2:10,12
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon..” Isaiah 55:7
“Behold, the Day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger; to lay the land desolate, and He will destroy the sinners from it.” Isaiah 13:9
BTW, the previous words aren’t mine, if they offend you, I’m not the one who will be judging, God will.
)
To me, it just seems a little more ‘urgent’, a little more….’proactive’ than just waiting and loving, and hoping our “radiant Christian glow” attracts some sinner to us who falls on their knees and begs, “What must I do to be saved?” Ummm…has anybody had that happen to them? Well, anyway, aren’t you glad the apostles didn’t stay hiding out in the upper room after Pentecost with their soul saving secret? Where would the saints be now?
)
Well, that’s what I get from reading all the warnings that God gives about the coming of the Great and terrible Day. How we are sadly misleading the lost to simply tell them of God’s ‘love’, without telling them at least an equal amount of how much God hates sin…
What say you?
)
December 31st, 2006 at 6:51 am
I just had an interesting discussion with my Uncle here (in France, a generally aethiest country) about this issue.
He is an aethiest and believes in nothing beyond himself. He believes "faith" in religion is purely a man-made machination and that beleiving in anything is inherently bad and self-deceiving. I was trying to show him that he does indeed have faith. His faith is no different then mine, except for the "what".
It was a most interesting argument, because I was not able to even convince him that his "belief" in nothing takes the same "faith" as my belief in something. If the heart is closed, it's pointless to argue. I have come to understand that it is the Spirit which must communicate with spirit. All our words and opinions and emotions can do nothing except effect the soul. A pointless endeaver.
December 31st, 2006 at 8:40 am
I think you’re a nut.
Are you the reincarnation of Ezekiel or somepin’ that you take and apply that scripture to yourself? I’ve never understood the basis for believers taking and appropriating scriptures to themselves and others like that … how does that word of God to Ezekiel make you responsible for telling others about Jesus? Are you saying IF they go to hell, it’s on you because you didn’t warn them about it? 
There is something I often see believers do, that in my way of thinking is nothing short of witchcraft. And that is the treatment of scripture like a recipe book, or worst case: a book of formulas and incantations.
The Bible is the record of God’s interaction with people, individuals and nations. Just because God charged Ezekiel to repeat word for word, warning for warning, that which God told Ezekiel for Israel, does NOT mean that we are charged with doing the same, unless of course God speaks to us by His Spirit and says that scripture applies to us as well (i.e., God must make it a rhema word in our life - otherwise - that scripture is just a record of what God told Ezekiel - HOW in the WORLD is that an evangelism scripture?!?)
The ‘misappropriation of scripture’ like that is no small problem for believers these days. Why, ministers teach believers to treat scripture like a book of magic spells ALL THE TIME.
I remember hearing a Frank sermon awhile ago, whereby he referred to the story of Jeroboam (2 Kings 13:18) who ’struck the ground with arrows’, so Frank had the congregation take an imaginary handful of arrows and strike at the air a half dozen or more times … what kind of nonsense is that, when we reduce the Bible to a book of forumulas and incantations, to conjure up some action by God on our behalf by repeating what God did through others thousands of years ago? It’s as if we have a mentality “if it worked for Jeroboam, it’ll work for you” … what folly!
Don’t we get that the Bible is a book of history, of God’s action in the lives of individuals, and nations, not that we are to repeat as formula the acts found in the Bible, rather, that we are to look for God in our lives and be open to HIS direction?
‘Scrupe
December 31st, 2006 at 12:07 pm
*chuckle* Yep, that’s me, and I’m also a freak….a Jesus freak, that is…:0
Soo…let me follow your concern to it’s logical conclusion….because that particular scripture that you took offense to was written to Ezekiel in particular, you say we can disregard it? Well, what about the book of Romans….it was written to Roman Christians, so I guess we can delete that one…man, what a shame, there’s so much good stuff in there….and maybe the book of Hebrews written to, well, the ‘Hebrews’, so we don’t need that one. And of course, Jesus when He was made flesh talked specifically to the disciples, the scribes and pharisees, and the people of that time, so we can’t really expect that archaic cultural revelation and instruction from 2000 years ago to apply to us today…right??? *Cheesy grin*
If we claim to be ‘followers of Christ’, shouldn’t we be actively ‘following Him’? What did He do? He came to ’seek and to save’. In fact, people were numero uno on His priority list.
People.
Lost people.
Blind people.
Sick people.
Deceived people.
Damned people. (I mean damned, like, for eternity, not ‘damned’, like…well, you know…:o)
He came. He sought. He saved. He gave His life as a sacrifice. He rose–both out of the grave and up to sit at the right hand of God. He came as a ‘doer’ of God’s will out of love and concern for the eternal destinies of humanity who, without His sacrifice, would perish. and burn. and their worm will not die. and where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth….yikes!
I certainly understand your reservation with using the Bible as a sort of spiritual ‘oujii board’…. “What shall I dooooo with my life?” “Whooooo shall I marry?” What color cloooothes shall I wear?” “What doth the Looord say to me today?” as we let the magical pages fall open, shut our eyes and point to the ‘revelation’…:o
However, I do believe that the inspired word of God was sent to us for a more specific purpose than a simple history lesson of humanity. I believe it was given to use an a guidline and a standard for our walk with God, and His Spirit, which He sent to guide us after Jesus left. The Helper came to us to convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement, (John 16:7-8) and to teach us all things and bring to you remembrance all things that I said to you, (John 14:26) conveniently recorded by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James…er….that last bit was my helpful addition…*wink*
December 31st, 2006 at 12:27 pm
Hungry,
We’re all guilty of “proof texting.” You, me, Sam, all of us…
It’s what folks do when they haven’t heard from God.
Mar 1:22 And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes.
This is what we do when are insecure and lack the authority that only comes from having heard the Word Himself.
If we desire to move beyond such evidences of insecurity then I suspect this will only come through true intimacy with Him, and the only way I know to arrive at that is taking Jesus’ call to take up our crosses more seriously, and who the heck wants to do that, when proof texting and pontification is so flesh satisfying?
December 31st, 2006 at 12:36 pm
One more thought…
In our day the concept of “authority” is largely connected with carrying a specific ecclesiastical title. To Jesus and His apostles “authority” was connected to godly character, love, service, and having heard the Word of the Lord.
How cool would it be if this kind of authority returned to the earth????
December 31st, 2006 at 12:42 pm
That’s an illogical conclusion, Hungry. But you’re a woman, so I’ll give ya that one.
Zeke was a prophet, established by God as an oracle to God’s people. The essential command there was “obey me”. By obeying God Zeke kept his hands clean … note those same people God said were stiff necked, hard hearted and rebellious, to which God made Zeke’s forehead like ‘flint’ to them. Zeke was especially equipped and positioned to speak the rhema word to God’s people.
It’s a ridiculous scripture to use as a proof-text for verbal evangelism of unsaved people.
Of course we shouldn’t throw out Romans - I did not suggest such a thing. You do know that we are, in essence, all romans by virtue of religious system and government type? Or that we are romans by virtue of being gentiles?
There is a difference between a letter written to a nation, and an instruction given to 1 person.
The flip-side logic is every bit as absurd as you try to make my logic out to be. For example, every time we see a believer with an unbeliever, should we run them through with a spear at the entrance to the tabernacle? Should we go buy a cart full of axe heads and toss them in the drink to see if we can make them float by throwing a stick in the water? Maybe we ought to start chucking spears at the harpists in the middle of worship service to replicate that Bible story? Perhaps every time God acts in our lives, we need to make a pile of rocks as an altar/marker to Him like they used to do? Mebbe next time someone rips me off like the Philistines did the ark of the covenant, I’ll pray God chaps their poop hole with hemorroids like He did the Philistines?
Those stories aren’t in the Bible because we’re supposed to re-enact them as a catalyst for God to act, as much as they’re there to show us God acts on people’s behalf, and to teach us to expect the unexpected.
The notion that God would make me responsible for anothers salvation like that is scary to me - because it usurps Jesus responsiblity and suggests that while Jesus saves, if I muck it up, they might be condemned. It also stands in opposition to Jesus who said that we have ALL been given unto Him.
As for evangelism scriptures, how about James who said “let us love not with our mouths, but by our love and action”.
Tell ya what, you go stand on a street corner in portland and preach 8 hours a day, and I’ll just continue to love and assist my neighbors, friends and family, and at the end of the year we’ll tally up the ’souls saved’ to see which method is more effective.
Or you can just admit that loving life-style evangelism beats “do as I say, not as I do” every time.
‘Scrupe
December 31st, 2006 at 1:08 pm
*Deep breath* Whew!
Oh YEAH?! Well…….ah, never mind, it’s not worth it…*Wink*
I do have to marvel at how you completely ignore the real point to my post, and pick some miniscule piece of lint out to puff up into ‘manly logic’…:o)
*shaking head and smiling*
December 31st, 2006 at 1:33 pm
You’re a sweetie, Hungry.
I’m sure if we ever met for f2f fellowship, we’d have a wonderful time in the Lord. Genuine, and heart felt love to you. 
‘Scrupe
December 31st, 2006 at 2:10 pm
Hungry,
“How we are sadly misleading the lost to simply tell them of God’s ‘love’, without telling them at least an equal amount of how much God hates sin…”
I would contend that preaching God’s love for people and his hatred of sin are NOT two separate things, indeed they are synonymous. The reason God hates sin is because he loves people. Sin promises to satisfy but doesn’t. God knows that. Only Jesus satisfies. Sin promises life but brings only death. Sin promises happiness, but brings only misery. Only life with Jesus truly gives us all that is longed for by the hearts of all people. God wants to have intimate relationships with people. Sin makes that impossible. “Ministry of reconciliation” ring any bells?
I’d love to know how active you are in evangelism and what results you have seen with quoting the scriptures above to unbelievers (or otherwise interacting with them having those verses as your mental back-drop). I don’t know what your experiences have been in having relationships with unbelievers, with “being salt and light” and experiencing the lost craving the light, peace, joy, authenticity, and stability that you have. I did my years with tracks, street dramas and street-preaching…until I started to actually spend time with unbelievers and learn how utterly ineffective, indeed counterproductive, those methods were. Only once I started hanging out with unbelievers, befriending them for the sake of relationship (sure, with the strategic intention of seeing them reconciled to the Lord), approaching them as equals rather than out of self-righteousness, did I start to see people wanting, asking, and seeking to know the Christ that I know. I agree that seeing the lost saved is urgent, and I agree with the need to be proactive. I don’t think that loving people and building relationships with people is “passive,” and I know for sure it’s a hell of a lot more effective than saying “turn or burn baby” (which I used to do…really, I did, years ago, scary).
Hungry, I would urge you to look at the methods Jesus employed in seeking and saving the lost, during his time on earth. The only people who spoke harshly to were the religious pharisees, not the lost, not the “wicked.”
The truth of the Gospel is that we are ALL simultaneously more sinful AND more loved than we could ever imagine. ALL of us.
December 31st, 2006 at 6:03 pm
*Grin* Stay on the straight and narrow, Brother, I’ll catch up wit’ ya in heaven…..