I decided to check out the top 25 Most Innovative Churches list that Justin posted yesterday. The #1 church listed (lifechurch.tv) is offering a rather interesting "challenge".
It's called the 3 Month Tithing Challenge and here is what they have to say:
The word "tithe" is derived from the Hebrew word ma'aser and it literally means a tenth. Ten percent of everything belongs to the Lord. In Malachi 3:10-11, God says, "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house." The ‘storehouse' is the Old Testament picture of the New Testament church. So as New Testament believers, we worship the Lord with the tithe; or the ten percent.
Giving away 10% of your income can be a big – and often frightening – commitment! That's why we created the Three-Month Tithing Challenge: a money-back guarantee of sorts. Essentially, it's a contract based on the promises of God in Malachi 3:10-11. We commit to you that if you tithe for three months and God doesn't prove himself faithful, we will refund 100% of your tithe. No questions asked.
God doesn't need our money. He owns everything. We give first because it takes faith to give first and God wants us to trust Him. He tells us in Proverbs 3:9-10 to "honor the Lord with your wealth, with the first fruits of all your crops and then your barns will be filled with overflowing." We give first and the blessings of God follow.
It's crazy and daring and in a way I respect it… of course it's also just a good way to manipulate people out of their money and shows no regard for scriptures such as Galatians 5:4, but at least they are "putting their money where their mouth is", actually no… they are "putting YOUR money where their mouth is" but whatever… it's an interesting idea.
If you wish to sign up you can do so here. These are the rules that follow:
- 1. I understand that this form must be completed and received by the LifeChurch.tv Finance Team prior to the beginning of the Three-Month Tithe Challenge Period.
- 2. I understand that my household qualifies for participation because we have not been tithing for the last six months.
- 3. I understand that if paid at a physical LifeChurch.tv Campus, my tithe must be paid by check, or by completed offering envelope, so that my tithe can be properly credited.
- 4. I understand that I cannot seek a refund prior to the end of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period, and that I cannot seek a refund for any contributions made prior to the beginning of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period.
- 5. I understand that any request for refund must be received by the Finance Team within 30 days of the end of the Three-Month Tithing Challenge Period.
- 6. I understand that I must log in prior to paying my tithe online, so that my tithe can be properly credited.
- 7. I would like to test God's faithfulness by accepting the Three-Month Tithe Challenge. I agree that for the three-month period I state below, my household will contribute to God, through LifeChurch.tv, a tithe equal to 10% of our income. At the end of the three-month period, if I am not convinced of God's faithfulness as a result of my obedience to His Word, then I will be entitled to request a refund of the full amount of contributions made during that 90-day period.
I think this idea works the same way CBC can claim "our books are open"; they know no one will follow through. I doubt anyone would ever dare say "God didn't prove himself faithfull". I'm sure it is thinking like this that makes them the "Most Innovative Church". While I don't agree with it, I do like the fact that they are trying something new.
In fact I would like to offer a similar challenge:
Stop tithing for 3 months and if God goes Malachi 3:9 on your ass I'll start tithing to whatever church you like.
I’ll take that Malichi 3:9 challenge, thank you very much.
If you keep pushing the envelope, you are going to break up some wonderful relationships….between the ‘head addicts in charge’ and their
codependants. It could get ugly!
Hmm, so, as I understand it, you are required to deposit your money into their accounts for a minimum of three months, and if you do not see results, they will refund the money to you.
Less interest, of course.
Peer pressure from church leadership, isn’t it wonderful? And it’s ALMOST ALWAYS applied when money is concerned.
Sam passed along this web site to me, off the blog, in one of our recent conversations, and I will post it here. So far as I know it is one of the finest sites for exposing the errors of the tithing doctrine on the web:
http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing.html
I haven’t read that article yet Tom, although I’m sure I agree with a great deal of it. There is another great one on http://www.thenarrowpath.com/ from one of my favorite Bible teachers, Steve Gregg.
I don’t want to get too much into the whole tithing debate as it’s already been discussed in length elsewhere, but there is one part of this “Tithing Challenge” that is common to most teaching on the subject that bothers me. There is never any definition of what God “being faithfull” means in relation to the teaching. Is God going to not be faithful to me because I don’t tithe? I would have to say that that can’t be true because I haven’t tithed in the way that the IC would teach for probably 15 years and yet I can still say confidentally that God has been faithful. My wife and I do give a little over 10% to various organizations but we also budget and try to use sound financial judgement as well as . . . gasp! . . .actually listening to a real God who is alive now on a regular basis about what to do with our money.
Anyhoo, to summarize I would have to say that while I probably have a far from complete understanding of God and could give more wisely, this sort of teaching is nothing more than a subtle scare tactic to get more money for the church. While I’m sure that the leaders for the most part have good hearts and motives, we need to rethink our theology . . . and I’m sure that I’m for the most part I’m preaching to the choir so I’ll get off my soapbox now.
Thanks Josh! Excellent site!
I’ve been figuring it up lately and I know I gave over 100,000 in about 10 years
to CCC in Boise. I want a money back guarantee so that I can give it to my new church’s fund where I actually see over 80% of the money go to build orphanages
and build buildings at a leper colony.
Sorry I just don’t like helping to pay for condo’s and the like —guess I”m
crazy that way!
Gee even Mary Kay gives you a 90% buy back guarantee as a consultant
if you decide to get out of the business.
If a MLM can do it why can’t you?
Just a thought that…
Maybe the God who died for a spotless church knows that a perfect church is impossible this side of heaven.
Maybe the savior who died for fallen man, knew that His bride, no matter how in love with Him she is – is still in the process of working out her salvation with fear and trembling.
Maybe the same love that is extended to the sinner for salvation is left in his/her life to bring about a continual growth whereby we are moving ever closer to the image of Christ.
As honorable as your intentions may be…continual pointing out others faults and talking about the Gospel of the Kingom don’t line up.
The GOOD NEWS of the KINGS DOMAIN is simply that Jesus Christ is the answer to every area of our life. If He really is our all in all then HIS act on the cross really reaches into every area of life.
Maybe His love through us is really, practically sent to COVER A MULTITUDE of sins.
I know the church has its problems, but i’ve found over the years that the truth of His Word applied through the love of His spirit is what changes people…including me.
God knows i need it!
Rg said:
And,
If the pointing out of error in the Church, or as expressed through individuals, is wrong, then it would appear both Jesus and Paul fail this test in much of their communications…
Even a casual reading of their teachings reveals that much of their ministry covered exposing errors and replacing them with truth.
I agree with you Rg, if your words are directed at avoiding nagging, knit picking, or whinning, but if error is propogated by those we look to for truth then someone needs to arise and dispel the fog.
Pro 10:12 Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.
1Pe 4:8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
These verses are not in contradiction to:
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19“Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
How does love “cover a multitude of sins?” Maybe by loving those who speak false things and covering their errors with truth. Maybe it covers them by saying to those who have been wounded by error, “No, you’re not crazy for feeling wronged. You’re not evil for disagreeing. You’re not God’s reject because you are no longer willing to stay in a place where such things go on, with no accountability to the body of Christ. It is ok for you to remove yourself from such an environment, because you have been given to know the truth which sets me free.”
Somehow love can be spoken which exposes error, without sacrificing God’s love for those who speak that error. I pray this is what God helps us do here in this blog.
Thank you for your reminder!
I’m disappointed that no body seems to have caught my pun about ‘pushing the envelope’ in regard to tithing…..
Well hey, I thought it was funny!
And the BAD NEWS is that so many Christians Churches don’t teach this. Instead they teach “You should Give so God can bless you now here on earth… if you have ‘Faith to Recieve’”.
This website (as has been stated before) is not designed for the un-Believer (Catalyst you are the exception), it’s a place for Christians to go and discuss current Christian issues about current Christian Churches.
Just because someone does something “right” doesn’t mean we should ignore the “wrong”. And just because someone is “wrong” doesn’t mean we should ignore the “right”.
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Well, once explained for the dull of brain (e.g., me), it is pretty funny.
I’d forgotten about tithe envelopes – haven’t seen one in years. Makes me wonder if the sign of a ‘faith’ church is one of those accordian style ‘expandable’ envelopes?
What kind of jokes could you play with a tithe envelope?
Glue your check in it?
Put your electric bill in it?
A gift certificate to McDonalds?
Expired food coupons?
An unsigned counter check would be funny, well, to me at least, just imagining the treasurer trying to track down who wrote it to obtain the missing signature.
Sam
In light of the above discussion on love between Tom and Rg, I’d like to address an issue that may be underneath the need of some Christians to bring silence to those who do speak out about the dysfunction they’ve encountered in the church. Those who speak up often sound angry, me included, and most of us have been taught that anger is not love, even though the bible clearly admonishes us to be angry yet not sin. If our voice even hints at anger, those who haven’t gone through similar things or those who have but have chosen to remain quiet, sum the angry person up as unforgiving, remaining in unresolved offenses.
To explain better, here are quotes on p. 112 – 115 from the “Boundaries” book by Henry Cloud and John Townsend:
“…quite often, when people begin telling the truth, setting limits, and taking responsibility, an ‘angry cloud’ follows them around for awhile. They become touchy and easily offended, and they discover a hair-trigger temper that frightens them… Emotions, or feelings, have a function. They tell us something. They are a signal. Here are some of the things our ‘negative’ emotions tell us. Fear tells us to move away from danger, to be careful…Like fear, anger signals danger. However, rather than urging us to withdraw, anger is a sign that we need to move forward to confront the threat. Jesus’ rage at the defilement of the temple is an example of how this feeling functions (Jn 2:13-17). Anger tells us that our boundaries have been violated…and serve as an ‘early warning system,’ telling us we’re in danger of being injured or controlled. Anger also provides us with a sense of power to solve a problem. It energizes us to protect ourselves, those we love, and our principles. However, as with all emotions, anger doesn’t understand time. It doesn’t dissipate automatically if the danger occurred two minutes ago or twenty years ago! It has to be worked through appropriately. Otherwise, anger simply lives inside the heart. This is why individuals with injured boundareis often are shocked by the rage they feel inside when they begin setting limits. this is generally not ‘new anger’ it’s ‘old anger.’ It’s often years of nos that were never voiced, never respected, and never listened to. .. It’s very common for boundary-injured people to do some ‘catching up’ with anger. They may have a season of looking at boundary violations of the past that they never realized existed.” It goes on to tell you how to move on and experience the grace of God through others who love you in your anger and then to take responsibility for healing and then finally to develop a sense of biblical boundaries. “Don’t fear the rage you discover when you first begin your boundary development. It is the protest of earlier parts of your soul. Those parts need to be unveiled, understood, and loved by God and people. And then you need to take resp. for healing them and developing better boundaries. …Individuals with mature boundaries are the least angry people in the world. While those who are just beginning boundary work see their anger increase, this passes as boundaries grow and develop. ” In short, our boundaries keep us from feeling violated and victimized.
I’d like to add, that for those of us in the stage of developing biblical boundaries, we may be reactive and combative to those who have the same voice of the people that we allowed to violate our boundaries in the past. Some days are worse than others. It doesn’t necessarily mean we hate or ‘vilify’ members of the body of Christ. We are learning to exercise a voice that was once silent and will hopefully have more civility as time goes on. In essence we are making sure our newly developed boundaries remain intact, even if we do it a bit clumsily and less lovingly than others expect we should. That explains us, not in full, but to the best of our new knowledge. Yet, I realize that it doesn’t excuse us from exercising love as we experience grace to love.
Boundaries is a miracle of a book–Easy to read and what you learn you can use in the real world. Free At Last has been quoting from it since I first met her! I noticed it was published in 1992 yet it was never a study book at my former church as far as I know. It’d be interesting to know what MFI in general thinks of this book. Tom, did you ever hear of it or use it at your former church? If you expressed a boundary there, was it perceived as non comformity or resistance to authority? Just curious to know. Thanks.
TCR.
Excellent!
I used it frequently in my personal counseling with members of the Church who were attempting to regain themselves and Christ, after years of having their boundaries violated. I believe Townsend & Cloud have written an epic series of writings, and I encourage all believers everywhere to read their works.
In answer to your question of whether boundaries were honored where I served in Eldership, or if it was perceived as non conformity, I’d have to say “sometimes,” to both sides of this question. I think our tendency is to honor the boundaries of others we agree with, and give ourselves permission to violate or pressure the boundaries we disagree with. The great challenge is to follow the Spirit in this area, and be led by Him in all we speak personally into people’s lives.
I know God violates our boundaries at times, knowing that it takes that to push us beyond our comfort zones. He is controlling at times… Yet, in general I believe He respects our boundaries and expects us to honor other’s. Who of us, in the midst of our personal rebellion, would bend over and invite God to spank us? Not likely…yet He does it anyway.
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Heb 12:12 Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
Heb 12:13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
In the absence of “knowing exactly” what God would want to say or do through us, as relates to those we interact with, respecting boundaries is critical.
Where the rub comes, is when assertive people assume, based on their title or position, that they can control your life, as if they were God.
God’s authority exists on earth, expressed through human vessels, but God help those who misrepresent that authority, and twist it around to justify forcing their agenda, as if it were God’s agenda. This is all too often the case in the IC Church. They labor under a false notion, “Because I’m the Senior Pastor I have the responsibility to decide what we will and won’t do around here. I’m in charge because I have to be in charge. If I fail to remain in charge I will dishonor my call in God.” This is so incredibly wrong, and has resulted in every ecclesiatical abuse known to man.
With God I set no boundaries, and must give Him full access to every part of my life. With humans I must set many boundaries, lest power crazed individuals seek to control my life towards selfish and destructive ends.
I know I have not addressed this delicate subject with any fullness, and there are holes is my explanation of God’s violating our boundaries…it just sounds wrong, but I don’t know how to express it any other way. Perhaps someone else here can say it better. To my thinking Jesus is the most gracious, loving, and safe being in the universe, and if He needs to press my boundaries on an issue He believes is important then I respect that. Someone else may be able to explain this better.
If I or anyone else from CCC I could ever get a straight answer from someone at CCC for where my money
went I think I’d fall over –but than you would have to actually know where it
went and track it and do accounting practices that a person could actually recognize.
Some organizatons consider it fraud to announce you are going to spend
money from offerings for a specific purpose and than take that offering and
do “other things” with it. Just thought I’d let you know –it seems basic
Accounting 101 and ‘integrity with a purpose’
So do you think it was a boundary violation to spend that for another purpose than what was told and sold?
Oh by the way –it didn’t just happen once–I shutter to think how many times it did happen –but then we weren’t allowed to ask any questions.
Man how I hope some people out there are reading this. We’re onto you
guys. You think sheep stands for dumb.
Rg—If you had given over $100,000.00 of your hard earned money at great
sacrifice at times to a non profit organizaton would you care how your money was spent?
What if you heard it was mis spent –used as a personal checkbook for their
family –little to no accountability.
How does that make you feel Rg? better check where you’re giving right
now. Guess what its okay to be just a little upset when you feel taken
advantage of. As both Tom Sparks and TCR have said thats how we develop
much better boundaries next time.
Thanks Citybusinesschurch for giving me a forum to vent my frustration and
attempt to alert others by a personal story —ask questions and if you
get hedging than you better move on somewhere else for they don’t come up
to the standard of professionalism that an organization should exhibit when dealing in the millions of dollars. Wouldn’t you agree Rg? If you disappear at the tough questions than I’ll assume you are part of the system keeping this going.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the tithe part of the old covenant? So if you are a Christian and you tithe, you are partially obeying the old covenant, and according to Galatians 3:10, if you do this, you are cursed!
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Also, when Paul was admonishing the new gentile believers, he said in Acts 15:19-20:
“Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.â€
Nowhere in Acts does it say that Gentiles should tithe, instead it just admonishes believers to remember the poor. The fact is the New Testament church never instituted the tithe system. Instead it operated on free-will offerings. We see the tithe introduced centuries later to fund building projects (sounds familiar).
Hey all!
What a great forum to talk sincerely about all this! I appreciate people who are sincere.
“Rg—If you had given over $100,000.00 of your hard earned money at great
sacrifice at times to a non profit organizaton would you care how your money was spent?”
Simply, Honestly,-No. I wouldn’t care for 2 reasons.
#1- Most importantly i believe that we as believes should have an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. Part of that is knowing His voice…i don’t believe in walking out my faith apart from hearing from God. “My sheep know my voice”. So if He said to give away my money, thats fine…. once i give it according to how the Holy Spirit directs me, it is really none of my business how it is used, because i don’t give it in my name- i give it in His.
#2- 10%, 45%, 90%- It really doesn’t matter. If we are truly followers, as we all strive to be, then really 100% is His.
Now don’t get me wrong, i strive to be fiscally responsible. But if i keep my “hand in the pot” once i’ve “given” money away [according to how i believe God is directing me]- then i truly haven’t “given” money.
-Rg
I did run across a great post [although its copied over multiple times in the same post] dated January 10, 2005. Anonymous was stating that its easy to type online about how City Bible Church doesn’t help the poor [which according to the poster is an erroneous statement], while we personally don’t take ownership of it ourselves.
a little plank in the own eye , speck in yours thing!
I think it only fair to keep in mind a healthy discussion of this sort should have both sides.
RG-
That would be a good argument if one could be 100% that every time they hear God’s voice, it is indeed God’s voice.
I certainly wouldn’t claim a 100% accuracy rate, nor would most prophets today.
Your argument kind of sounds like this to me:
I’ll just pray about who to vote for. If “God” tells me to vote for Candidate A, then everything that person does is ok. I can’t vote and “look back”.
Sorry, a voter needs to do their homework. And a person who gives ought to research where they give.
KM
Km-
I understand what you are talking about and don’t want to discredit being a good steward of what we are given, whether its the right to vote or money.
BUT
If i can do it on my own, i have no need of God.
you are talking to someone who has moved all the way across country, given up their dream job, close close friendships, and come to a place [portland]“simply” because God said so.
It has proven to be the BEST thing that my wife and I could have done.
New Testament faith is not some heady, lets learn, and educate our way to God.
NT faith is simply believing God. Ie. Heb. 11
I don’t mean to come down on anyone reading this, God definitly meets us where we are at…but,
If i ask God for something good [His direction] i trust He will lead me. Its just who He is.
I have finally come to the place in my walk with God, that i realize He is good.
Rg maybe the point of all this questioning of the money is why are we giving?
Is it purely given in obedience– or from a sense of guilt and manipulation?
If thats the case than wasn’t the intent wrong? In abusivie church’s –they use guilt and manipulation from the pulpit mixed in with scripture and voices that easily solicit your money.
A direct quote from a CCC service:
‘ Do you have a need than write that exact amount on your check and place it in the offering’
A woman we know did that and her rent check bounced. This caused her
confusion as she was perfectly clear she heard the Lord’s voice after all
this was one of her pastor’s she loved and trusted. Now she’s in confusion
why didn’t the Lord protect her and make it all work it? She felt she was
obedient.
Different philosophy on offerings large mega church across town —
‘we will not manipulate you to give money thats why we don’t stand up here week after week and go on about our needs. We trust the Lord to lay it on your heart to give and we work hard to make every dollar count. It always seems to come out right in the end. If we have to manipulate you to get money we don’t want it –that money is not clean.’
OK Rg –now which church do you want to go to and blindly trust your money will be handled well? Isn’t that being a good steward –judiciously studying how the church handles their finances –especially in asking rather than
begging for offerings. Which one will be rewarded do you think?
Does the Lord care if we are good stewards or should we dig a hole and
put our money in it and hope everything turns out alright? Does a
parable come to mind?
N by NW,
Exactly! – i don’t believe in manipulation crap.
But once again i go back to hearing God’s voice. We were in a church for 3-4yrs that probably wouldn’t have been our first choice. We went there because we felt God leading us their. My wife especially did not want to attend, but ended up finding alot of emotional healing there as God used those relationships in her life.
It all comes back to hearing God. iEven though i have been on the receiving end of all that manipulation stuff, i do realize to that there are simple biblical principles. That MAY be what the pastor/leader is trying to get to …BUT….principles were only meant to be a “back up” for when our flame of intimate love for the Lord wanes.
Is telling someone to write a check for the money they need and put it in
the offering a Biblical principle or even based on one in some way?
Not sure what you’re saying.
Would some people identify manipulation when they hear it?
It’s amazing how once you are out of a controlling church you can
hear manipulation a mile away.
Thanks RG. Your story helps me understand you.
Just to help you understand me–you are talking to someone who sold or gave away everything she had, moved from Portland across the country, gave up friends, moved 3000+ miles away from family, because God said Go.
I went and visited the MFI church I planned to attend, had some MAJOR checks in my spirit about the dynamics there, sought counsel, and went anyway.
There were many good things about my time there in the secular world, but horrible things in the MFI church I attended.
I’ve already told pieces of the story elsewhere so I won’t repeat it here.
I still believe God is good, but it’s certainly not because of my time there. Did God REALLY tell me to go? I can’t say.
What I can tell you is that a prophet from CBC prophesied over me there and told me it was supposed to be my home. A year later God told me to return to Portland. (I have NO doubts about hearing from him then.)
So, I’m really careful about what I think I hear. Just my experience, but God speaks to me directly very rarely, and seemingly less and less often as I mature in Him.
Stick around–it’s fun to hear new voices.
KM
Pink Car Driver,
I do believe there is biblical precident for giving out of our need.
I guess my whole “beef” with this is that we are meant to be servants. Servants of Christ…not the church. Much of the hurt on the blog, the offense comes because people have – for whatever reason- served man instead of God. If i go to a church and a pastor says something i don’t agree with … so.
I learned to “chew the meat and spit out the bones” if ya know what i mean.
N By NW,
I totally agree!! Once you’ve experienced condemnation, manipulation, ect- you can see it coming a mile away!
kariMichelle,
“I went and visited the MFI church I planned to attend, HAD SOME MAJOR CHECKS in my spirit about the dynamics there, sought counsel, and went anyway.”
It sounds like your heavenly father speaks to you more than you’d like to admit!
Thanks for the encouragement to stick around..Its good discussion
If I had a nickel for every time I heard that …
RG – one of the things I’ve learned is that every where I serve up a churchy platitude like that, it’s indicative of something I need to work through – because serving up platitudes usually means I’m glossing over something without thinking.
Take for example “chew the meat and spit out the bones” … doesn’t the Father prepare a banquet table for us? There’s no bones in what you get from the Lord.
There’s also that image I get from Isaiah of “vomit covered tables” – who wants to eat at a table like that? Where everyone has been puking up their religious programming? Can I really see myself digging through the filth there to find one fit morsel to eat? Nope.
So, for me, recognizing that the institutional church is just old testament temple worship reincarnate, where they preach a cross-less gospel heavily mixed with OT law, I skip that altogether and commune with the Lord who never feeds me anything I have to “spit out” because it’s bad, or wrong.
You may have moved cross country bro, but you took some of your religious baggage with you. The same applies to me – the trip is meant to strip you of your baggage. Don’t be afraid to examine it, and chuck it.
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Thanks for responding Sam! Here are some more ideas;
1. Write on the ‘pledge’ card, “after prayerful consideration, I’ve decided to obey Jesus and not make any oath. Matt 5:34-37.
2. Put 2 cents in the envelope with a note, 1Tim.6:6, Godliness with contentment is great gain.
Rg,
I would like to think that if we were all in perfect harmony with the Holy Spirit we could give to our home churches freely without a second thought. But it has been constantly PROVEN that pastors are susceptible to everything from poor money-management to outright swindling of the poor for their own benefit. To stick your head in the sand and give blindly is poor stewardship, and those who ignore the revealed misdeeds of their church leadership will be held accountable by God for their complicity.
And I disagree with the statement “I do believe there is biblical precedent for giving out of our need.” The Bible is full of verses about giving, and almost all of them talk about giving TO those who are IN NEED. The one story that is often misinterpreted is the story of the widow who gave everything to the Temple. Jesus was using this example to scold the Pharisees for not taking care of the poor widow! They tithed on everything they owned, but they couldn’t come up with a few extra coins to help the poorest of the poor and even looked down on her for her measly contribution. What horribly hypocrisy! The accounts of Acts talked about how the Believers shared what they had so that no one had NEED. The apostles collected gifts for the Believers who were IN NEED. If you are IN NEED, then you are the person that is the very target of the giving of other Believers – not the other way around! What kind of backwards logic does it take to say that the poorest and the neediest should be the ones who give to help the poor and needy?
I remember when I was 18 and went off to PBC and attended one of my first home group meetings. The leader asked for donations to the Saints Relief fund and passed around the hat. I gave my last three dollars thinking I was doing the right thing. When the group later went to Taco Bell for dinner someone had to buy me a burrito so that I’d have something to eat. I continued to tithe and give sacrificially out of my meager and sometimes non-existent income, even though I couldn’t pay my tuition. There were so many evenings when I just didn’t have food to eat or gas for my car to get to work. *I* was the poor student IN NEED, yet the doctrine of BT/PBC continued to convince me that God was going to bless me and provide for me if I continued to give. I lost a lot of weight during that time, and no, that was not a good thing. I ended my first (and only) year there OWING PBC*ahem*the church*ahem* hundreds of dollars. Later, while attending a secular university, I gave my tuition money as a Faith Harvest offering. Because of my “faith” I had to get a student loan that year so that I could keep going and finish my degree. I paid for the rest of my tuition in other years by working. It was the only student loan I’ve ever had to take, and I’m still paying for it. Every time I make a monthly payment, I’m reminded of how much I gave to CBC and wonder what happened to that money. Come to think of it, I’m still paying interest on my Faith Harvest offering! How on earth is that blessing me???
Every time I’ve given out of my need, I’ve become more needy. If anyone needs “proof” that this system doesn’t work, come talk to me.
+1 on the comments concerning ‘those in need’. When I started to read the bible for myself, I noticed that emphasis in the NT. Thanks for the confirmation!
In Acts 2:45, it describes the early church as ‘selling their property and possesions and sharing them with all, as anyone might have need’.
How does this line up with asking the poor and working class to give so the church(?) can buy more property and possesions? (big screen TV’s etc.)
Another case of doing the opposite of Christ and the early church.
Have you ever heard a pastor say to the congregation “the church is people” and then turn around and say “we’re taking an offering for the church”? If the church is people, isn’t the more honest thing to say “we’re taking an offering FROM the church FOR the building and pastor”?
Or if the request is to “give to the church” and the “church is people”, why not just take a $20 out of your wallet, and hand it to the guy sitting next to you?
I didn’t always notice it, but the definition of “church” often changes mid-sentence when the pastor is talking. When there is work to be done, the church is people. When the subject is money, the church is the building and pastor. Watch. Listen. The double-speak will blow your mind.
Sam
Sam,
Man, if I had a nickel everytime I heard you say that the tithe is of the law……
How bout giving me one explicit reference in the text that confirms your theological bias!!! Just one….
And please no allegorical mumbo jumbo……also please be terse….
[Comment ID #23012 Will Be Quoted Here]
Doesn’t terse mean a one-word answer? How can he be both terse and explicit at the same time?
Cowboy,
This site will answer just about any question you might ever pose to anyone about why the Tithe has no place in the New Covenant Church:
http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing.html
If you can read through all these articles and still remain of the same opinion, well…I can give you a few ministries to send your tithe to, who would love the help paying off their $1,500,000 homes…
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Matthew 23:23 KJV)
In the scripture above, which identifies a set of acts required by the law, Jesus clearly attributes the tithe to the law.
If you want to dispute whether or not the tithe is a matter of the law Cowbore, take it up with Jesus.
Sam
[Comment ID #23012 Will Be Quoted Here]
Leviticus 27 (aka the Law)
Is that terse enough for ya?
Are you trying to be a linguist? Hmmmmmm……maybe you should stick to “other” things…
Or maybe you should time warp back to the first century, where you would be welcomed by the school of shammai- the pharisaic majority( it would be a warm reception)…….I also think you would get along with jewish interpreters like Philo who kept exegetical watch over the minutiae, the small details of the law, yet disregarded the “heavier” things of the decalogue and the torah…..matthew 23
The only point you made was your own penchant for nit- picking! Most understand the tired old metaphor of the church as being an illustration for people and not a building…..we got that 15 years ago, kido…Unfortunately, you underestimate the “Biblical intelligence” of most christians to understand “context” of speech….
Church, like all words, has nuanced meaning. For example, church theologically means “people”, while culturally the word is more concrete and objective meaning a “physical” structure….and so on-
Because people really do understand the uniqueness of the word church; No qualification of its meaning is needed……
Cowboy, I don’t understand your logic at all. Sam gave you exactly what you asked for – a verse that ties tithing to the Law – and so did I. You call that nitpicking? You lost your point so your only recourse was to call names and go off on a digression about defining the word “church”, which is not only not germane to the discussion, it was never mentioned by anyone else! The only person who seems to have an inability to understand “context of speech” would seem to be you.
If you can’t argue a point with anything but religious and empty rhetoric, then go to another blog where they will pander to your obscure and pretentious vocabulary. I’d rather listen to “mumbo-jumbo” than another one of your boring rants that only serve to puff up your pride and causes me to get out my dictionary to figure out what the hell you said.
Sorry to make this one personal, but I’m cranky today.
Cowboy needs to get laid or eat mass quantities of chocolate, or both.
Are you serious!?! You crack me up, sweety- for your sake ill pretend you were joking…..it means concise…….an explicit verse means a specific reading that states tithing is a tenet of the law……
you can be both terse and explicit…..:)
Sam,
Ill be patient with ya…. Read matthew 23:23 again….the last clause,” And leave the others undone.”…please someone give me a specific reference to the tithe…..not ones opinion…..
Cowboy, you’re being purposefully obtuse because it doesn’t fit your preference. So here’s one more:
Nehemiah 12:44
I will counter-challenge you to show me one New Testament Scripture that says Christians should tithe to their local church.
Haaaa!!!
Boring, religious, dry!!!:) Man, you have painted a self-portrait:)
FICM, what conversation are you in? Read back alittle bit and ull see sams thought….
Ull come too!!!
Please, I want someone to read me a verse that says literally, “tithing is of the law”…..hate to break it to you all but there is no such verse….you have given me ur vague interpretation but that is it…..
Cowboy,
Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”
Your point in quoting this verse is well taken, however, historical context is everything here…
Historical context:
1. Jesus is speaking to those under the Mosaic system. We are not under the Mosaic sytem.
2. There were actual Levites, as designated recipients of the tithe. None of the apostles described anyone in the New Testament Church as being a replacement of the Levites. In fact, Paul said he didn’t teach against the law. God was causing the Levitical system to draw to a close, and Paul could see it happening, but he wasn’t about to try to tear it down himself, by creating a whole new Levitical priesthood. Just imagine the flack he’d have gotten for that one…! (Don’t touch the money…!!!!)
3. There were literal storehouse compartments, near the temple proper, where the tithes were to be brought, to meet the needs of the Levites and the poor of the community. There are no New Covenant storehouses, and there is no indication any of the apostles considered the Church (which was a people, and not a building) to be the new storehouse.
4. The Levitical system, at the time Jesus was speaking, was in full motion. It is not now. Not even in the life of modern Jews.
5. The “finished” work of Christ, has caused a new covenant to come forth, which no longer necessitates the old practices.
6. The old practices were for the Jewish nation. We are now a nation of priests. If we were going to tithe we’d need to tithe to all the believers around us, not just the leadership, since we’re all priests now.
Jesus was speaking into this historical context, and at the time He spoke the Levitical system was in full motion, as it was in the days of Moses. After the cross the Jewish believers in Messiah undoubtedly were uncertain as to their place in the old system, but as time went by, and revelation increased among the apostles, they all transitioned into the New Covenant approach to life with God. No doubt it was a confusing time for them initially, but it cleared up as time went by, and until around 5th century none of the apostles or early church leaders after the apostles, taught tithing. They taught Spirit led giving.
This is all the more pertinent for the Gentiles, of whom Paul absolutely refused to be forced into the Mosaic system of circumcision, feasts, sabbaths, tithing, and ritual practices of the law.
What I’m doing here is simply summing up some of the teachings you will find under the web site I pointed you towards. I really believe, if you are sincere, you will read each of those articles, which are very well written, before engaging this blog in detailed regurgitation of what has already been provided at : http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing.html
Cowboy, do you not know the origin of tithing and what it is? It is the part of the Law that God instituted and gave to Moses from Mount Sinai. It is not just “of the Law”, it IS the Law! Why would the Bible need a verse to say “Oh, by the way, that stuff God said on Mt. Sinai? Yeah, that stuff is the Law. You know, just in case there was any confusion.” The Jews understood tithing to be part of the Law and they obeyed it as strictly as they observed the Sabbath or any other part of the Law. What line of thinking causes you to decide that tithing was not part of the Levitical Law? How can you justify this premise?
I think Tom’s comments will be enough to shut poor Cowboy up.
FICM,
Exactly…..I was hoping you ask! No one can say either way……I could give you my idea of what the text “means” to say about tithing, which I believe is overwhelmingly in favor of tithing as a NT practice, but it is my interpretation.. My point is that the doctrine of tithing is not so cut and dry as this blog seems to emphasize….ur problem is mixing explicit doctrine with implicit doctrine……….the Bible says nothing about tithing, as a tenet and practice, not being carried over into the NT church(I’m trying to use your boring language):):) The Bible seems to imply that it has; however, others say the Bible seems to imply the counter….
Be that as it may, all I ask from this blog is an honest perspective that tithing isn’t so perfectly laid out…..and please stop using dogmatic speak like the “tithe is of the law” and “tithe is not a NT practice….because it sounds excessively “religious” and does not value the exegetical process of study…..
My father was an associate pastor and worship leader of a small church in idaho. I rarely ever saw him between him working full time and all the time he spent at church. If all of the members of the church had tithed faithfully he could have spent even more time at the chruch and helping others, and time with me and my other siblings. My family strugled greatly with finances. Thankfully God was always faitful to provide so we had no lack for necessities, but I lacked my father. If you don’t want to give to your current church because you don’t think they need it or what ever the reason… just remember that my sister isn’t serving God now and believe whole heartedly it was do to my father neglecting his family. Is it the members fault? Not directly, but they could have helped out. My dad gave 14 years of his life to that church and the average person couldn’t even give him Sunday. Take care of your pastors they deserve it.
From an article I wrote several years ago called Tithe Followup:
Why do people haggle over the tithe, a meager 10% of the increase, when as believers we have offered up our entire being to the Lord (Romans 12:1)?
Do people even get, that to be IN Christ, is to have all the benefits of Christ, including having fulfilled every single facet of the law, including the tithe? We who are IN Christ can boldly say: “Christ has paid the tithe for me”.
I get so tired of religious people trying to drag me OUT of Christ and INto the law. Sorry, but I’m a son of the free woman, not the bond woman. For pete’s sake Cowboy, read Galatians.
Jack
Well, I would agree with Matt in that regardless of your view on tithing (I believe it’s not taught for gentiles like myself) it is still good to give to those who are ministrering into your life. I think that there are many good teachers and pastors out there that work hard and don’t see a lot of financial benefit from their ministry, despite many of the abuses.
Cowboy, you sound like Bill Clinton: “It depends on what the meaning of the words ‘is’ is.”
You admit that the NT doesn’t teach tithing, but that apparently isn’t good enough for you to let go of it.
Try reading Hebrews 7-9. It explains how Christ became the fulfillment and replacement of the Law, and yes, it mentions tithing! Imagine that!
To Matt,
Your story is a sad one. Things like that should not happen, but we all know they do. What most of this blog is about is defining church in a different way. The status quo is not working! What if ‘church’ was not a Sunday morning meeting with everyone listening to a ‘pastor’? (by the way, ‘pastor’ is only mentioned once in the bible, Eph 4:11, and NO job description is given) What if we were all brothers, and no body had to ‘do it all’? Or ‘know it all’? How about being part of a community that helps each other out and shares their meals and prayers together and supports a strong family life. That could be a start.
Hey Josh, another question.
When Paul exhorts those in ministry to follow his example, which includes Paul’s adamant refusal to accept any money for fear of hindering the gospel, why do ministers ignore Paul’s teaching and take money anyway? Often even quoting from the very passage (1 Cor. 9:12 and 1 Cor. 9:15) where Paul says he refuses money?
Notice that 1 Cor. 9:14, often quoted by ministers to extract money from believers, is SANDWICHED by 1 Cor. 9:12 and 1 Cor. 9:15 wherein Paul refuses to accept money for the gospel.
Strange, huh?
Do you honestly believe a body of believers can exist without a leader?
Matt,
I would like to comment to your entry, but before I do I admit it will likely be a bit uncomfortable for you, but it is not written with insensitivity or as a trite reply to an extremely painful story. I share with compassion friend.
My time at CBC is almost a direct parallel to what you indicate happened in your family, except I wasn’t the Senior Pastor…just one of the elders, but we were paid so pitifully little that we always lived in what the government described as a “poverty state,” because CBC/BT felt it was more important to give away Dick’s tapes and materials, and support various missions, and most importantly, build a 10 million dollar ediface to his personal legacy as a pastor.
We suffered financially. If I had to tell my kids once, I had to tell them a million times “I’m sorry kids…but we just can’t afford that ___. We’re living for the kingdom of God, not money and things…”
They, like your sister, grew bitter with the Church, and indirectly at God and me. I’m sure I didn’t handle the matter correctly, in terms of the overly religious manner in which I “dismissed” their honest struggles, but I was hooked into the system.
But Matt, I have a very different take on the resolution of this matter, and here’s where I don’t want to be insensitive to your life story. I don’t at all think the answer for your family was more folks in your dad’s Church tithing more, or tithing at all. I firmly believe what he, and myself, and millions of men, all over the world, needed to do was get out of a system that did that to both the givers (a pressure towards legalistic shame based giving) and the recipients (pastors who are trying to nurse along a system that should never have existed in the first place.)
I needed to get out of it, and get a real job. I needed to honor my kids, and take better care of them. I needed to expose a system that brings pastors and Church members into financial and legalistic bondage, and get away from it.
Interestingly enough, it has been my getting out of that system, and apologizing to my kids for all the legalism, poverty, and religious addiction, that has helped them to do some rethinking about Jesus.
Would it have helped them, if we had had a huge salary, and been able to buy them all the things they wanted? Maybe, but then maybe not. Every time we had one thin dime Dick pressured the Church to give it all to the building fund, and to my shame…I always did it. Sooo, if I had been paid more I’d have likely given more to the Church, to build it’s “Church in a box” philosophy.
Should I have given that raise to my kids, in toys, vacations, clothes, etc.? Maybe, but the legalistic system doesn’t give you permission for that. I hear some pastors treat themselves to the best of the best, but none of the pastors at BT did that, including Dick Iverson. He was at least consistent with his belief that we need to give it ALL to Jesus and his building project…at least as far as I could tell. He had a modest car, modest suits, and a modest home. What Frank is living like I have no idea, and “frankly” no interest in knowing either.
I just don’t think the religious system does well by anybody. It swings between prosperity excess and legalistic poverty. Neither fit the Gospel, and both hurt families.
I believe the answer is coming out of the system, getting free from legalism, working a normal job, and then ministering out of the provision that comes through hard regular work (as Paul did in making tents) and then letting God lead parents to give to their children what is appropriate, and doesn’t make God look stingy and miserly.
I don’t know if this helps, but it is where God has led me, and it appears many are hearing similar things…
Matt, Yes. I think that the problem lies with the definition of “body”. I live in Monmouth Oregon, I regularly attend and minister at a local church in Monmouth Oregon. However I don’t consider my attendance at that church to put me in a separate “body” from another group in Salem. I was recently talked to about becoming an official member, and my thought was “sure, as long as that doesn’t keep me from being able to be a member of every other church in town”.
In other words, to me a body is not an organization, it’s a group of living, dynamic relationships that can’t be easily quantified or labeled.
Matt,
The question of whether a body can live without a leader need not be an “either/or” question.
It’s a complete rethink and redefinition of “leader” that we need.
Here’s one I have found is true to the Greek meanings of the words the apostles used to describe Church leaders, as well as Jesus’ clear teaching to His apostles throughout His ministry:
Leaders are those who, by virture of physical age and spiritual maturity, are given to the care, feeding, serving, and loving of the flock. Their leadership knows nothing of control mechanisms or intimidation, but rather, though the above traits, lead the flock by their wisdom, example and lifestyle, seeking to influence rather than dictate. It is in no way connected to a title, so as to give them certain ecclesiastical powers or honor, but is solely based in Christ’s integrity and character. Their authority is based in their connection to the Head, Christ Jesus, manifested in acts of love and clear communication of God’s Word, both His written scriptures and His moment by moment Rhema communication into His body.
I hope this helps a bit…
FICM,
I never admitted such a thing……tithing is carried over into the church, which the text implies overwhelmingly….Jesus nor paul said that tithing is no longer valid because of “grace”…you have to do what john does and try to make the words of Jesus or paul look like thats what they “meant” in relationship to a bias. Simply put, the tithe as practiced exclusively under the law and is done away with because of grace is not explicitly taught in the text…..its an opinion shaped by ones bias……..
John you meant to say- read the book of Galatians according to your religious bias, didn’t you:)
Hi John,
I like the way the message puts it;
“Still, I want it made clear that I’ve never gotten anything out of this for myself, and that I’m not writing now to get something. I’d rather die than give anyone ammunition to discredit me or impugn my motives. If I proclaim the Message, it’s not to get something out of it for myself. I’m compelled to do it, and doomed if I don’t! If this was my own idea of just another way to make a living, I’d expect some pay. But since it’s not my idea but something solemnly entrusted to me, why would I expect to get paid? So am I getting anything out of it? Yes, as a matter of fact: the pleasure of proclaiming the Message at no cost to you. You don’t even have to pay my expenses!”
So, I would say that to me it seems that while it’s good to follow his example it’s not necessarily “required” for ministers to follow. That’s obviously no excuse to see ministry as a money making opportunity
I think that if we were to get rid of the institutionalization of ministry and leave it entirelly up to listening to God it would clear up a lot of issues. In other words if you want to minister full time and not work, you also can’t be asking for money all of the time. You just have to trust God for others to support you directly. No organizations asking for 10% of you money to use at their discretion. Then the ball is back in the court of the believer to listen to the Holy Spirit and be obedient.
I hope that makes sense.
Cowboy, so does the New Testament also define the tithe as giving 10% of your monthly income to the state recognized church that you attend on Sunday morning? Or is that implied?
No Cowboy, that’s not what I meant to say. It’s just that I desire for everyone to come into their full inheritance that is in Christ Jesus, not trade it away for that proverbial “bowl of stew” that is religion and legalism.
Believe it or not, I care about you – but you sure make it difficult.
Jack
Josh were you trying to make a point…
How bout trying to make your point again!!!:):)
Thanks jack….I share your sentiment, aswell. What I find profoundly important is that thoughtful, thinking, spirit-filled christians who believe that tithing is a “valid” spiritual practice, can in some way temper the brusque rhetoric on this page….I merely assumed, due to the self-described mission of the blog- that satire was endorsed…but apparently satire can only be one-sided:):) Am I wrong?
Satire is like getting pulled over by the cops … it’s only funny when it’s someone else.
Tom
-i appreciate your personal story. the fact that after it all instead of simply passing the blame [which you could have easily done] you decided that you weren’t simply a victim.
2 thumbs up for deciding to lead your own life rather than let someone lead it for you!
Rg,
Thanks! I really don’t blame any of my former leaders or pastors for those difficult seasons and experiences. I still love Dick Iverson very much. He seems very much to me to be a godly man. He was pursuing what he believed was the best course for his life and the Church, even though I believe he didn’t fully know his own heart, and how much of his motivation was man centered. Who of us fully knows our heart at any given moment?
OH my gosh, my inbox is overflowing with comments from this thread!
On a side note, I remember from my member’s seminar at The City Church, of how Pastor Wendell and Gini will say to the potential new members, that if you are not comfortable tithing, you should find another church. This is also passed down to the cell leaders when they interview the new members, we had to ask them if they objected to tithing, women in ministry, [insert heresy here]. Also, they routinely boast to the congregation and other ministers about their tithe rate, which is 90% of the congregation. (I guess that happens if you tell the congregation your dish washer will last longer if you tithe – no joke.)
I have also noticed a disturbing trend of the leadership of The City Church praising the congregation over and over about their giving. They would typically do this the following week after a special mission offering was raised or a minister was visiting. They would announce the numbers, and everyone would “oh†and “ahâ€, and Gini would pat everyone on the back and say how wonderful it was for them to give (and how God was going to bless them). In my opinion, this is akin to manipulation in how a mother will praise her child to elicit a certain behavior out of them.
The promise of “blessing” in return for tithing, never worked for me. I never went hungry like FICM, but did do without things I needed because I had tithed. Of course I continued to tithe because I believed I had to, and because I believed God would be faithful to bless me, as I had been taught. Every raise, which amounted to no more than a cost of living adjustment, I counted as blessing – but in reality, factoring in inflation, replacement cost of vehicles and appliances that wore out, all I have known for 30 years of working, is financially ‘treading water’.
Finally, the Spirit led me in a year long study of the tithe, culminating in several articles, and freedom from the tithe. Along the way, the Spirit prompted me to give to specific individuals in need, and directed the amounts, sometimes down to the cent. There have been a few times when giving like that, I have seen immediate, equivalent blessing.
Once when the Spirit had directed me to give a regular anonymous gift to a sister with advanced MS, who used the gifts for food and a motorized wheelchair, He specifically asked me to give her a special gift of $100, between T-day and Christmas. At that time, our TV had broken and we needed a new one. As I sat down to the kitchen table to pay bills and make out an envelope to our friend for the $100 gift, I noticed the Walmart ad which had a 19″ TV on sale for $100. For just a moment I thought about blowing off the Spirit’s leading and buying the TV. But remembered how our gifts helped our friend, and went ahead and sent her the $100 gift.
The next Sunday, it was our turn to pick her up and bring her to church. When we brought her home, she said “Jack, someone gave me a color TV but I already have one; could you and Karen use it?” Of course we could! It was better than the one Walmart had on sale and lasted many years for us.
One of the ways that has effected me, is in my understanding of 1 Cor. 9:14 – most read that as ministers have a right to “earn a living from the gospel”; however, what I believe to be the Spirit of that passage is, that the real way we “live of the gospel” is by DOING the gospel – specifically, where the gospel teaches us to be selfless, love one another, share, the way I ultimately “live of the gospel” is by being an example of sharing the gospel FIRST, in my community, by giving, helping, etc., where in turn it creates a community of giving, sharing, helping and others respond to me in kind.
What troubles me about modern tithe/giving type doctrine, is that the ones who are supposedly announcing the gospel, the ministors/preachers/pastors, aren’t setting an example of giving first, rather they are always asking others to give. And the recipient of that giving, the institutional church, almost NEVER gives back to those who have given to it.
This is particularly keen to me, in light of some discussions I’ve had with Tom, about building community, of starting a home church – it is not so much about meetings, as much as it is about being family – loving and helping one another. And while I sometimes lament the lack of fellowship here, it really is up to me to announce the gospel BY EXAMPLE, with sharing and caring, whereupon I believe that Spirit will catch on and spread, and create an Acts 2 & Acts 4 type community where I live.
For me, it is not about standing at a pulpit, preaching for 20-40 minutes, and then asking for a donation. That’s not church, that’s not even biblical in my view. It’s about doing the Gospel.
I truly believe when we DO the gospel, as suggested by 1 Cor. 9:14, we will see blessing, but then, that blessing will also be tempered by a new desire for more of Him and less stuff – of converting from the selfishness of giving to get, to giving to help.
Jack
Thanks for the second chance Cowboy! (by the way I’m neither angry, nor am I bitter, in case anyone was wondering. A bit sarcastic at times though.) My point was that I can understand one reading all that scripture has to say on tithing and coming to the conclusion that it is for Christians today. Where I can’t make the leap is that the tithing discussed in both the Old and the New Testament is very different than that preached and taught in modern churches. If you want to tithe, sure go ahead, but there is a very specific way that the OT teaches it, which was the very thing Jesus said “should have also not been left undone” (paraphrase).
My belief is that Old Testament tithing is fulfilled in the understanding that all I have belongs to God. So just as Christ’s sacrifice fulfills the need for me to sacrifice, so does giving and generosity fulfill the Old Testament tithe.
Josh you never sound angry or bitter. There’s only one on here who does.
Wow. We were told that WSmith had the gift of giving. Now it occurs to me that this whole concept was generated by their own press and charismatic manip. gagmewithaspoon.
Thanks for taking time to answer Tom. And a fair answer it is, human nature being what it is. I was assuming MFI didn’t advocate boundaries at all, but that’s just based on my summation of the church I used to attend. Even then, I don’t know how they really feel about boundaries because I’ve never had a chance to ask them. But I did find it interesting that the book wasn’t ever recommended or even heard of the entire time I was there.
When we truly see that Jesus is this gracious and loving being, letting him in isn’t that hard to do. When our view of his true heart is clouded, that’s when we let space in between him and our souls/hearts and don’t give him access. I go in and out of this. I AM grateful to get a glimpse of the fact that he expects us to have boundaries with others since so many want to use us for their own gain yet convince us that our service to their needs and wants is really serving God.
As far as God violating our boundaries, I guess he has every right, but my belief is that he will only take that right if we allow it. My belief is a bit selfishly oriented so I can still trust God because if I think of him violating me in any way, it increases that wideness between us again. So I prefer to think of it as Him overcoming me with his grace and spirit to understand something I never understood before, thus I can finally give the area in question over to him willingly.
Nicely said! I agree!!!
no thanks
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Well, I think we are at an impass, since you seem to disagree with any point that i make. So I’ll just sum up and you can believe what you like.
I believe that the tithe was part of the Levitical Law and as such we are no longer bound by it. Paul spent the entire book of Galatians scolding them for trying to adopt Levitical Law as a requirement for being a Christian. The book of Hebrews explains how the Law and the priesthood were only a substitute for the “real deal”. Heb. 7 specifically mentions the tithe and the Law and how it was replaced by the work of Christ on the cross. Paul makes a point of encouraging those in ministry to do it without financial motivation. (As a side note, I think the Catholics have done better than the Protestants in this respect. At least they make their clergy take vows of poverty.)
The NT does encourage giving and providing for the basic needs of others as a tangible means of demonstrating the love of Christ. I won’t ever discourage giving. But I will always continue to decry the idea that the tithe is a NT principle to be followed by Believers.
You can call that religious bias if you wish, but over the last 7 years, God has been slowly freeing me from my religious ideas and habits. The very idea of someone calling me “religious” is abhorrent to me. I don’t ever want to be associated with that again. I want to associate myself with the love of Christ and nothing more.
Bravo F.I.C.M.!
God blesses the faith, not the gift. If tithing was the command that God promised blessings from then the jews would be the poorest nationality alive. call your local synagogue and see what they think about giving. cause you’ll find out that most of them don’t believe in tithing. Look at statistics though jews are the wealthiest nationality alive. something isn’t adding up here? and people are being fooled by it.
Samaritan and WhatHeSaid, for the tithe envelope, I always thought an I.O.U. would be suitable. I guess it could be redeem once I confirm the whole tax appropriateness with my Master.
What so many well meaning folk fail to realize is that the only tithe God ever commanded was basically only produce and livestock. Even the fishermen could not tithe. They (perhaps like Cowboy) do not consider that money was not acceptable as a tithe. Where in scripture does it say that money is NOW an acceptable tithe. God is meticulous with details of the tithe. Why no details for the temple-less church (aside from our bodies
*) Did God get lazy? Heaven forbid!
To paraphrase the one who paid my debt, “It was FINISHED!”
It is interesting to note how so much JUDAISM is creeping into *ahem* influencing the church.
I have come to the conclusion, or revelation that being religious is human nature, whether we profess God or not. I believe that is what God wants us to abandon, no matter what the “religion” is, but instead worship in spirit and in truth. When Jesus spoke to the woman at the well, he told her that the days of doing the religious tap dancing in a certain location was over; it was time to worship in Spirit and Truth. AMEN!
Tithe. The precept is clear. The abuses are many; however isn’t the issue one of honor? I see many people struggle with percentages, struggle with doctrines, and struggle with religion and rebellion.
Oft I see their struggle with finances mirror their real struggle with lacking honor for the Lord. The sin of pride blinding them of His generous nature.
The line in the sand for tithing is clear. One is in agreement or not and defines their hearts intent and their comensurate agreement with either blessing or curse based on the precept and design of whether they are a giver and of His nature or a taker and of another nature.
Satan and Principalities and Powers prefer default agreement with them and their ways and their nature. Powerless and taking Christians with great debates and religious ruffles don’t bother them. Being a light on a hill has express overflow in every arena and agreement with the very generous heart of God.
If only peoples would honor the Lord with their first fruits and their increase; the world would change and institutional religion would die on the vine. So few know Jesus well enough to know when He speaks or hear what He says.
If they knew when He spoke and What He was saying then they would also know how to honor Him and have the heart to do so.
Honor and Glory,
Would you mind shiwing us where that all is in the Bible and how it applies?
I think your statements are easier said than explained…
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Each subject and topic arena are found in numerous places in the Bible … those many places form precepts … sometimes understood as “the ways of God.”
Precepts are not easy to grasp for those who have trouble grapling with simple lines of text and their meanings.
I will leave you to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and to your discernment and biblical studies in your pursuit of truth and sound doctrine.
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What a great comeback! Generalize the Bible into a collection of “precepts” yet refuse to share how you arrive at them, then insult someone for asking you to explain it. Thank you for at least allowing the Holy Spirit to guide me in my studies of the Bible. I was worried there for a second I was going to be all alone without you to guide me!
Honor & Glory, I won’t ask you to explain this all to me, because I know your position already. I was there for years until I finally looked up all of those numerous places in the Bible. Here’s my tithe challenge to you: Go look up every verse in the Bible on tithing and giving, and then tell me how it applies to you as a Believer. If you are open-minded and will let the Holy Spirit teach you, you just might learn something. But be warned! You might just find out that you’re free from tithing! I’m guessing that fear will keep you from doing this. Alas, I wish all my brothers and sisters were free from the chains of the Law.
Former Inner Circle Member.
My intent wasn’t to overgeneralize, nor judge nor insult. My apologies … I can sure see how it looked like I was being harsh. I also think I was overreacting a tad too. I’m sure you must have picked up on that.
The tithe issue is so huge and takes such a great deal of research and time to get to a comfortable place with. (Even if offerings isn’t part of the package project.)
Yes I have a position. It is clear that I agree with tithing. Though I haven’t heard sound doctrine from the current church system on the topic. (I suspect it might be out there … I just haven’t looked very hard) Too often it’s just manipulation and Law and mixture.
I look at the topic more like a “law of nature design issue” versus a God rule that makes you good or bad. The precepts of increase, firstfruits, sowing and reaping and several other precepts directly related to blessing … I simply see them as similar if not directly related.
Fruit of what is really inside a person simply flows out of them. It cannot be hid … blessings simply overflow … and that gratefullness towards Jesus is simply uncontainable in so manny facets from praise and worship and giving. (They seem to all work in unison after time … and if one area is lacking it seems all are hindered.)
The key here for me “former Inner Circle Member” isn’t a “deadly percentage” or “letter kills” attitude … but as I said before the issue is one of honor and the heart.
This is the hardest issue of all. Faithfullness, truth and honor in the inward parts!!! … whew! reality check … heart check … then to recognize where and through whom Christ is ministering? …. whew … I simply sow back towards where Christ is sown towards me.
Never has a building sown Christ in me. Never has a religion sown Christ in me. Christ in His servants (disciples) who serve and Speak His words is where I sow.
Some times it is to many peoples … as of late it has been mostly one person. They mostly pray for me and rebuke me. But it is the Lord … so I honor Him. I evidence His firstness and am a chearful giver and delight in the firstness of Jesus. (Not perfectly nor with perfect love … but that is the way I have been going and growing.)
For me it is simply a blessing and a heart involvement that is consistent with the design of God.
I hold no one to my convictions. Though I often see people miss out on something very wonderful about how God sets things up. Farmers seem to get it easier … people who understand Gods ways and design and the law of sowing and reaping seem to get it easier as well.
God is good and takes care of His kids regardless if we get certain things or not.
I have spent over 28 years working and studying to arrive at what I’m very comfortable with in my convictions. I’m sure I’ll keep learning on this issue however.
After all it is an exciting discovery … watching how God does what He does and learning His Business!
Honor & Glory, I agree with you that there are biblical principles. One of which is GIVING, not tithing.
Tithing is no more a biblical principle than slaying a goat and splattering its blood all over my body.
Yes … giving is a biblical precept.
As with tithing there are many shadow types that point towards the real.
God isn’t wishywashy and hasn’t changed His mind on issues … He has provided clear understanding and has been consistent all along prior to giving the Law. Abraham understood that.
H&P, you said:
As with tithing there are many shadow types that point towards the real.
EXACTLY!!
I guess we just disagree to which *REAL* the tithe points.
H&G,
I can appreciate your position on giving and what you give is between you and the Holy Spirit. On that I think we can agree. If God asks you to give 10% of your income, that’s fine – who am I to judge you? Real giving comes from the heart and it is a good indicator of one’s attitude towards God and others. I will never object to anyone giving with a cheerful heart.
However, I strongly disagree with anyone who states that all Christians MUST tithe in the same way I would disagree with anyone who insists that all Christians must be circumcised and observe the Sabbath. The tithe was part of the Law and as such we are free from it. I don’t want to restart the debate, since I’ve done it here ad nauseum. Just be aware that many of us here on this blog are here simply for the fact that we are both entertained and outraged at the teaching of tithing, specifically at CBC.
Pray tell, Honor and Glory, WHERE have you found a Levite to receive your tithes? (See Hebrews 7:5 and Hebrews 7:9)?
Sam
Former Inner Circle Member and Samaritan:
Thanks both of you. I’m sure you all have gone rounds with this topic.
Perhaps you are right to simply keep it summed up in the category of Giving … that certainly fits the New Testament model and heart and keeps people from stumbling.
I suspect that my perspective is so far different that it is hard to express. I haven’t been part of institutional religion for over 28 years now and even then didn’t buy into the mixture. I went where I was led and did what the Lord told me and still do (for the most part.)
I’m sure my usage of the term tithe means something entirely different than people who are fresh out or into the religious system that mostly abuses both tithe, offering and giving precepts in a legalistic, controlling and bad doctrinal format.
Giving is good, giving with true joy and chearfulness unto the Lord is healthy. Religious rules that dogmatize it is simply error.
I simply understand in my heart the reasons and precepts behind the OT and pre-newtestament tithe … much like I understand and agree with the precepts of rest and sabath. In my mind and heart many of these issues are simply continuous precepts set by God to benefit His Children and keep them from falling into agreement with error and rulers of darkness.
I’m in no way under Law but am free to live in the Law of Liberty and the Grace of God Allmighty and the life in the Spirit. Yet I feel strong understanding on the precepts and shadows that lead into the real. To me many of the biblical precepts are like gravity … simply a design issue of God’s order. True throughout all time … Changeable in unique situations … like Jesus walking on the Water.
I simply see parameters of growth and development … line upon line, precept upon precept, faith to faith and glory to Glory. Many … unfortunately need more defined discipline and those precepts in their early discipleship … not Law mind you … but reality boundary and consequence … reality left hand and right hand teaching … reality milk … we ought as disciples have have our senses excercised to know Good and Evil. (Heb 5:11-6:2)
The above foundations that should be Christianity 101 simply aren’t being taught with depth. Yet knowing blessing and curse and their framework early on in the grooming cycle of new disciples is critical.
Though hard to prove and often fathom … I see parallels in many shadow types and real types we are to embrace and enjoy apart from religious rigor. Gods precepts, designs and schoolmaster points us into areas of blessing.
We who are wild branches would do well to have wisdom and heart understanding of what (Yahweh-God) the Husbandman of the Jewish vineyard was after in their grooming. Certainly that very grooming is also a shadow type of the real with intended nature change results that those in the Spirit as they receive and mature in Christ … they too will automatically walk out agreement with those very grooming precepts … not by Law … but by life in the Spirit and in liberty.
I know that denying self, and bearing ones cross and following Jesus and hearing and doing as told by Him sums up most of what a disciple needs … however … sound doctrine needs have a solid framework from shadow to real.
Personally I have watched givers simply “not” struggle in this area. I’ve watched those who really fight and struggle … well … most that I have seen aren’t givers and have very little framework discipline or understanding as to what God was after in the grooming of the natural branch Jew (respective to this arena)… nor can they see how that shadow type could be consistent in the upbringing by Christ in the Holy Spirit … into a clearer, truer NT walk … that is well beyong the Jew Groomign standards.
Every “OT Law” Jesus mirrored and clarified for NT precept was exceeding beyond OT rule. (If you hate … you are a murderer … etc.)
I simply see the precepts of tithe and offering as continuous, healthy, and as a design charachteristic summed up in giving and completely apart from the Law or OT rule set.
Yet in Body design … Gods order … I believe dealth with Principalities and Powers on a blessing/curse … truth/stronghold … basis … enabling the Jewish nation to be groomed and oft freed from agreement with the strongholds of Principalities and Powers by their obedience. Sabath, Jubilee just two easy examples of this … however the list goes on and on … This is a very hard concept to grasp … however I see the same issues and strongholds and Principality and Powers in operation today and they oft get default agreement by those who simply haven’t those strongholds groomed out of their system by being set free by the truth. Little discipleship, and unsound doctrinal foundations.
I hope this helps … I know I said a mouthfull and didn’t bother with homiletics … but I think I got some of my heart across.
Blessings in Christ Jesus!
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, H&G. I do understand what you are saying about precepts, types and shadows, etc. But I don’t think the OT tithe translates at all to the NT …
In response to one of my tithe articles, a friend in Canada wrote a wonderful piece that I posted, called Just What Was Abraham’s Example … for some reason, tithe preachers are always looking to that 10% example, yet Abraham’s real example was not 10%, but 100%. 10% went to Melchizedek, the remaining 90% he gave back to the king of Sodom and his people. That is a foreshadow of the NT and the call to give up our entire life to follow Him.
Honestly, the tithe mentality is foreign to me now – for I literally have given up job, home, children to follow where the Lord has led me. When someone talks to me about the tithe, it is as if they are suggesting to me that I keep 90% (or whatever) and quit giving all … or, that they are discounting what I have given to the Lord: ALL OF ME and ALL I HAVE. Talking “tithe” to the man who has given all is, well, just plain absurd. It’s going backwards, you know?
…
The OT model is one of God being separate from His people; people build God a temple, God resides in the temple in Spirit, and the people go to the temple to worship. The temple needs priests and those priests need a system of support, provided for by the tithe.
Suddenly, Pentecost blows in. God vacates the stone temple, and takes up residence in a new temple: His people. The stone temple is deserted (Matthew 23:38), eventually destroyed, the priesthood that worked the temple scattered to the winds and abolished. Now suddenly the people are not only temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16, et al), but sons of God (1 John 3:1), and priests (1 Peter 2:5-9), and kings (Rev. 1:6) … etc.
So, where we are all Sons, Priests, Temples, Kings (according to scripture), then to whom do we give? To whom would a tithe be given if it were still required of us? I think that’s why we see in Acts 2 and 4 that there was no possessiveness within the church – that everyone shared everything – because in sharing with each other, we are offering unto the Lord (Matthew 25:31-46, etc.)
One of the reasons I suppose the word “tithe” gets people’s hackles up, is precisely because where there is a tithe requirement, there is a giver and a receiver – the IC (which I have not been part of for 6-7 years either) holds that the pastor is the receiver and congregation the giver(s). Yet, according to the scriptures mentioned, there is no distinction between believers in terms of sonship, priesthood, kingship, temple-status … so why is one a giver and another a receiver? All should give, and all should receive according to the NT model.
Just a few wild thoughts from the paint fumes …
Sam
Thanks Samaritan … perhaps we see it much the same.
Thanks for the insight on Abraham as well.
I agree … all should give and receive.
There are mature, teachers and functioning ministerial roles in the NT church and I believe a servant based authority structure. (Certainly not a paid authority structure)
I see giving to Christ when giving in those lines.