Cowboy Challenge
Posted on January 5th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Things Dougie wouldn't do categoryI hesitate to do this, but…
I would like to challenge Cowboy the Magnificent to write out what she (or whatever) believes to be the truth in regards to Biblical interpretation of the "Tithe" and send it to me for posting on this site. It's only fair to give both sides an equal chance to share.
Cowboy, you are real good at pointing out others problems (as we all are here), but are you willing to take an actual stand for yourself (Forgive me if you have already done this, I read very few of your comments).
Write it out and send it over; we will give you center stage…and then we will likely mock you (I want to be very forthcoming about my intentions).
Do you accept?
January 5th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
You are so funny!! Honest too
January 5th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Come on Cowboy…
January 5th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I love a good fight and I enjoy these warm theological disputes…..yet, give me some time since I’m out of town and have other priorities………I promise I won’t mince words if and when I can:)
January 6th, 2007 at 12:32 am
I know this may be a little off subject, but in what I’ve read from Cowboy, I pegged him as a boy-male-man. Now I will have to go back and read the posts and see if any female hints exist. Hmmm, since that’s a lot of work, maybe I’ll come back and do that later.
January 6th, 2007 at 7:59 am
Eh, just look for female-isms. You know, irrational emotion, obfuscation personified, that sorta stuff. Also, her bitchiest messages are on a 28 day cycle. It pretty obvious.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Dude, how many personalities do you have?
January 8th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I’m waiting to see this one, but in my heart, I know it’s very unlikely to happen.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
It will be interesting to see how he justifies his “theological bias”. (His words, not mine.)
January 8th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
obviously they are Cowboy’s words. no one would’ve assumed they were yours….
January 8th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
And we’re still waiting…
(LOL!)
January 8th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
thanks Captain Obvious! Most of us our semi-intelligent people, so your play by play is unnecessary. Go watch Florida rip apart Ohio State and save yourself the embarrassment of trying to be witty.
and only 14 year olds on myspace should use LOL.
January 8th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
STILL waiting… and wondering why anyone would feel compelled to attack anyone here, unless, of course, they feel threatened by that person’s posts.
(LOL!)
January 8th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
i like it when you guys preach to yourselves…it only proves my opinions of you to be more sound then originally thought. have you read your own comments before?!?! attack…threatened….once again, i love it when you preach to yourself, its cute.
January 8th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Hey Rae, are you and Cowboy the same person?
You sure sound like the same person. You respond when Cowboy is questioned. Why would you do that, unless you are the same person?
I am still waiting for Cowboy to answer this thread, unless, of course, he cannot.
(LOL!)
January 8th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
are you kidding me right now? how many times must i answer such a stupid question. No, nada, non, nein…i have now answered you for the last time in as many languages as i know.
i think cowboy has some sound notions which is refreshing on this blog. most of the other bloggers like writing about how hurt they are/were and then go on to quote the same scriptures over and over. never giving convincing or bona fide answers to theological questions or otherwise. its the same crap over and over with no essence, just crap.
Cowboy does a good job of exposing some of the flawed ideology that likes to float around on here. Sorry to tell ya but i’m not his only fan. it appears he’s found himself a little fan club and i would just like to be the president of it.
so maybe the reason i respond when he is questioned is simply because i like anyone who makes you and your friends think a little harder about the crap you’re throwing out…and cowboy does that pretty well.
have i mentioned i don’t like crap?!?!
January 8th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
It sounds like we have a pack of clones at one of the mother ships visiting the blog daily (interns maybe), and it is interesting how you come and say how there are flawed ideology when you and your leader “cowboy” simply skirt the issues and attack people. The truth is that you can’t defend tithing with a coherent argument so you simply attack the people on the blog.
I am looking forward to the answer to the “cowboy challenge”. I doubt you even read the articles that were given as examples of why tithing isn’t for the new covenant believer.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:14 am
Well, isn’t that special.
Rae is almost certainly a card carrying member of the vipers brood (Matthew 23:33).
It’s people like Rae that drive brothers and sisters away from religious institutions and make doubly sure they never come back. Rae, you have done more for the healing of people on this blog than you know. Don’t let anyone who shares honestly and from the heart dissuade you from continuing to hiss and bite and spew your venom. Just continue reminding us of why we left abusive church situations and are never going back.
Well done, Rae.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:20 am
I don’t believe you, Cowboy.
:-)
January 9th, 2007 at 8:24 am
People who run from a challenge are generally regarded as something less than honorable.
I’m still waiting to see Cowboy’s response to this challenge.
January 9th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Rf
Haaaaa! Are you trying to bait me….(well, just hold your little donkeys or horses) I have several projects that I must finish before I can get around to my thesis but it will soon come……
Don’t you fret, now!!!
January 9th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Yeah, sure…
whatever you say…
(I’m not going to hold my breath)
January 9th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Rf,
How old are you?
January 9th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
……because yur last post reminded me of a little, depressed 15 year old boy:):):)
Just playen with ya, sport….don’t be a hater…….
Most warmly, cowboy…..
January 9th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
It’s a leap, but I am assuming that you are addressing me, and not someone who goes by “Rf”
Why do you want to know my age?
Are you looking for a date with me, or are you seeking to denigrate my comments with age disparagement?
Which is it?
By the way, if you spent this time honing your “Biblical interpretation of the “Tithe”" instead of attempting character assassination on me, you would be done by now.
I’m still waiting for your post about your Biblical intrepretation of the Tithe.
Take your time…
(LOL!)
January 9th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
15.
January 9th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Hey Rae,
How’s the Prada purse or is it Kate Spade? Just wondering–knew that was
the important theological item on your mind today!
January 9th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Church Lady –we knew it was pack of interns or was it a pack of
hyennas. Can’t tell the difference.
January 9th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
Oh, that’s interesting.
Attention blog owners:
You have been hacked, with someone making posts under my name that I never posted.
January 9th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Actually, I won’t be 15 until March.
January 9th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
I’m officially confused! am i suppose to know what you mean or are you seriously not all there? please amuse me.
January 9th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
glad to help…
January 9th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
It was such a nice quiet weekend without Cowboy and Rae. dang.
Maybe Rae’s real name is Rosie O. THAT would explain the blindly swinging fists and the word Pal which sounds like a Rosie word.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Let me…clarify…….speaking slowly now………..
you sound exactly like the girls we know who’s biggest interest in life
is their designer purses and hair extensions all at tax payer expense;
or rather tithe payer expense.
Sorry if its not you Rae –but the voice sounds the same.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Sorry –this was my post —hmmm what does that mean—-
I said:
Let me….clarify…..speaking slowly now……..
you sound exactly like the girls we know whos
biggest interest in life
is their designer purses and hair extensions all at
tax payer expense;
or rather tithe payer expense.
—-so how are those hair extensions if you have them? We’ve all got to
look alike.
January 9th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Well, it seems obvious that Cowboy is incapable of answering this challenge.
Since he/she has had more than enough time by now.
January 10th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Rf,
You little devil you:) Are trying to bait me?? That’s so sweet…..just hold on to yur little monkeys/horses, little guy……..when I get a chance to write I will…you crack me up…..
I almost forgot to say good job on deciphering RF- its code for reform- shhhhh don’t tell anyone……peace out, little one-jk
Cowboy
January 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Yeah, right.
I won’t be holding my breath, because I doubt it will ever happen.
January 10th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Hey Heathen,
Still think Cowboy is a guy?
‘Scupe
January 10th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
(Shrugs)
Gender is irrelevant in this, but if he is a male, he certainly uses effeminate phrasing.
Oh well, I eagerly anticipate the response to this challenge:
Until such a time as that challenge is answered, I have a certain opinion of that poster, and, I’m sure, they have a like opinion of me! (LOL!)
January 10th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
how is someone using my name? i never posted that. are you guys in junior high? you can’t handle conflict so you use my name to post?!?!
who freakin cares who has designer purses and hair extensions?!?! apparently the idiot that’s trying to steal my identity.
Let me ask you a question phantom “Rae”? are you really that insecure? i’ve never know anyone that insecure….
January 10th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
January 10th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Rae you just gave me the biggest laugh.
Read between the lines –women here are spending inordinate amounts
on hair extensions that we —our church–helped pay for.
Thought it was you. If not –then enjoy your hair and keep your
hat on —its all written in fun but if we make a point to the abusers
or rather the hair users - than all the better.
January 10th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Jessica Simpson lives!
January 11th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Rae said:
Rae, it’s the combination of a user name and an email address that lets you post here. Anyone can create a user name “Rae” so long as they use (and reuse) a unique email address, or, if someone knows your email they can post under your user name.
The secure thing to do, is hit the “register” link at the bottom (?) of the blog page, and create a profile with a password.
I really don’t know why you are concerned with identities anyway - since you, Cowboy, and Dust Warrior With a Swiffer or whatever it was have all posted from the same IP address. Seems pretty clear you have been a bit, shall we say “junior high” with your identities / posts? You may not be Cowboy, but your BS smells the same.
Just sayin’
Sam
January 11th, 2007 at 10:10 am
One week and 45 comments later, we still don’t have Cowboy’s thesis on tithing for the modern Christian. C’mon, Cowboy, your reputation is at stake here. Let’s see it.
I gave my views on why tithing is an invalid concept for Christians, and I did it one paragraph that referenced several key scriptures. We’ve also listed several web sites that provide an in-depth analysis of the topic and why it’s a bogus doctrine.
Where’s your answer?
Perhaps we should suggest to all the naysayers who visit the blog to help Cowboy out, here. Anyone want to provide the answer for him? Go ahead. We’re all ears.
January 11th, 2007 at 11:41 am
I believe that reputation is secure already.
January 11th, 2007 at 11:50 am
You know, there have been a couple of times Cowboy has alluded to parody in a way that suggests her role is to ‘parody the parody blog’ - while we have our fun lampooning CBC/MFI, et al, Cowboy has had some fun lampooning us … sort of ‘parodying the parodists’ if you drift my get.
There is a strange humor in that for me - I imagine we’re about as funny to CBC/MFI as Cowboy is to us.
And if I’m wrong, I’m sure Cowboy will be the first to tell me to leave the thinking to the educated.
Sam
January 11th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
you didn’t answer my question? do you have multiple personalities? oh wait….i think you did later on with your other alias….
just use one identity….it’ll help you get through your obvious mid-life crisis.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Good advice, do you take it for yourself?
January 11th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Sam,
First of all, thank you for responding back to just me…since I’m not Cowboy or Dust. I’m annoyed with the constant accusations that I am or even know these other bloggers. I do agree with them and that’s why you guys like to assume we’re the same person. Maybe they’re stealing my computer or perhaps you aren’t as computer savvy as you think because its impossible for anyone else to have the same ip as me.
You are apparently the one so concerned about the multiple identities so why don’t you go investigate Fortunes….she’s blogs with four or more names and likes to respond back to herself with a different name. She “amens” herself. Go do a little research on that and stop sending false accusations towards me.
thanks.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Sorry about all the extra identities. It’s rather crowded in here, you know. If you insist on just one identity, then we’ll just have to…
Hey! Look at those pigs!
January 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
My problem with Cowboy’s attempts at parody is he/she infers that everyone here is below her level of intellect. Now whether that’s her true feelings or an attempt to lampoon us as elitists, I couldn’t really say. It’s just a poor way to highlight a problem he/she has with the blog instead of saying something clearly because whatever faults this blog has, there is always somebody up for a debate.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:34 pm
Either that, or you are the same person and you got caught.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Apparently somebody cares or the subject wouldn’t have been brought up.
If I’ve done my homework and read the past posts on all this correctly, Fortunes and Free at Last and others beg to differ with a church who uses tithe money to give big salaries to their family staff members so they can live a posh lifestyle with unecessary and frivilous items such as Prada purses and hair extensions. If you are into Prada, then you can imagine that the taste for fine things doesn’t stop with purses. That’s most likely the tip of the iceberg.
Perhaps if the church had a little more discretion (the quality of being discreet, esp. with reference to one’s own actions or speech; prudence or decorum) and wisdom, they’d lower the salaries of the family staff members so the lifestyle would be more in keeping with those who live in the area and then that money could go into a ministry of the church that could actually help change lives or at least pay off unpaid debt.
Nothing wrong with having an expensive purse, but who needs a Prada purse in Boise Idaho?? Or maybe a more important argument would be that the need for $300 sale Prada purses or $365 sale (low end) Dolce and Gabbana shoes tend to speak out loud and clear where the heart is. Not saying that pastors can’t have designer clothes, etc, but it still shows more of a concern for image than anything else sincere that may reside in their heart.
Also, who needs hair extensions unless vanity is a big problem? Hair extension cost about $300, not including labor, and have to be redone every 6 weeks or so. So I can see why this is a stumbling block to some of the people there. Perhaps the family should move to New York City or maybe even Seattle if they are trying to be Kate and Andy Spade.
The point is, it sounds like this church may have a little problem with nepotism(favoritism shown to relatives or close friends by those in power (as by giving them jobs) ). They may want to think seriously about changing that if they want to have a better reputation in their community and make an impact for Jesus Christ where they live.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Exactly.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Rae, that statement proves you don’t understand how an IP address works. An IP address is like a mailing address and it changes based on location, not based on computer. I could post on the blog with my laptop from 3 different locations and show up on the blog with 3 different IP addresses. You and Cowboy having the same IP doesn’t necessarily prove you use the same computer (although it’s likely), but you are at the same location.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Usually when you have several people sharing an IP address, they are sharing the same internet connection, most likely an office or school connection. I’d be willing to bet that Rae & company are students or on staff at CBC/PBC.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Or the church in Boise.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Hey, Cowboy, just dust off your “Basic Doctrine” by Kevin Conner and tell us what it says about tithing. I won’t accuse you of plagiarism, I swear. There must be like 50 copies sitting around the office there. Or did you sell your copy to buy a ticket to the “Tithe” conference?
January 11th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Guess you’ll just have to be annoyed, then. Once again, you are posting from IP 70.98.75.198 which is the same ELI.net / Integra pop that Cowboy and Dust Ball have posted from several times.
If you really want to conceal your ID, you should reboot your cable modem once in awhile, or get a proggie to mask your IP address.
Sam
January 11th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
hopefully I just took care of the said:said: which isn’t part of my name.
January 11th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
I don’t get the feeling that Fortunes even cares if it’s known that she uses multiple identities. If you study her style she is more interested in making a point, or a series of points, without getting too wordy.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
So, if I used the same Internet Service Provider as 5 other posters, it would show that we all have the same I.S.P. address?
Is that correct?
I.S.P. addresses identify the service provider, as opposed to the exact computer used?
January 11th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
once again its impossible….but keep digging kiddos.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:08 pm
As a large computer network administrator, I would like to verify that Legion’s statements are correct. Most likely the IP, which is being broadcast by the Electric Lightwave Inc company, is coming from a single institution, if they are all using the same one. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re using the same computer. That said I too am interested in what Cowboy, Rae or anyone else from there has as their actual position on tithing.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
OK - which one of you said that, Legion?
I have 3 PCs and an iMac networked through a router and a single cable modem. The IP that shows up here is the same for all 4 computers, and rarely changes even when the modem is restarted. Even when it changes, only the last set of digits change - the basic IP remains the same, because my provider never changes.
It would be fun to check the IPs / ISP of CBC/PBC, et al, and do some comparison - likewise, map IPs and times to see which is the home and work IPs … might be eye opening.
Or, I might just have a beer instead.
You’re a hoot, Rae.
Sam
January 11th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
On The Other Side of It and Surviving…
thanks for explaining this to me. I haven’t read far back enough to understand these references. now her comments will make more sense to me but i still don’t know why she sends them to me.
anyway, thanks for enlightening me so now Fortunes won’t annoy me so much….i’ll just feel bad for her now.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
How about if everyone just stops responding to Rae’s misspelled and grammatically incorrect comments from multiple identities? NO ONE CARES!
And who is Sam to judge? Rrring, rrring - “Hello. Pot? This is kettle… you’re black.”
Maybe if we just ignore
TiffanyRae, she’ll go away! This blog is getting so stupid. I can barely make it through the comments without yawning, it’s such a bore.January 11th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Hmmmm. Rae and Cowboy both call people Pal and Kiddo and Sweetie. There could be an entire thread devoted to the pet names in Rae/Cowboy posts.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
could i join ya?
January 11th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
You buying? And, what’s yer favorite beer? I’m into Linenkugel’s Red lately. Mmm …
January 11th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
What I think would be kind of funny would be if all of these people are posting from the same place and don’t even realize it, although I find that unlikely.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
That would be funny - John444 and Unscrupulous are posting from the same place and don’t realize it …
January 11th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Please stop using my name to post. thank you. I haven’t been posting all of these.
January 11th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Rae,
I wouldn’t feel BAD for her. It looks like she doesn’t care about the identity thing or she would have done it differently. She sounds very passionate about what she’s saying and there must be reasons for that. What we all DO need to do is look beyond the technical details so we can ask ourselves if there’s any truth in what’s being said or suggested (not just by Fortunes but everyone’s posts).
January 11th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Sam,
Does Original Rae and the other Rae have the same IP address? Just curious.
There IS a Tiffany intern in Boise who would sound like this ‘new’ Rae, but not like Original Rae. And she would most likely not know enough to cover her tracks.
January 11th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Wow!!!
Looks like yuv been having fun without me. Shoot!!! All that speculation, baiting, and satire……it makes me feel all “happy” inside. I havnt laughed so hard at a group of people trying with all their hearts to be so “satiric”….that’s so cute
Also, my thoughts on tithing will come when I want them to come……I will not insult you with the tired cliche that “people have lives” because maybe you find spending several hours a day on a blog justified. However, I cannot justify such a thing, not even 20 minutes recently, due to my schedule…..
So just hold on to yur horses and relax…….COOL ?
January 11th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
sorry but that’s redundant
heyyyyO
January 11th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Note that I’d have preferred ‘Classic Rae’ to ‘Original Rae’ - just has a nicer ring to it …
‘Original Rae’ is same IP and email as ‘Rae’ - though there is another ‘Rae’ with a different email.
You could go some place and pay a tithe and not have so much fun as we have here for free …
January 11th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Yeah, I realized that it sounded weird after I posted it. I am, in fact, not that large, if that’s what you mean. My wife tells me I need to lay off the chocolate though.
January 11th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Sounds like yet another excuse to me.
Like I have said, I will not be holding my breath, because I doubt that “Cowboy” will ever respond to this challenge.
January 11th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Wow I missed alot while I was gone.
Rae you are so hostile —if I respond to you at all its because your
voice is the summation of the wording and judgementalism we all
want to get away from.
You seem to come unglued if anyone debates you or points out
some logic in your discourse which has been confusing at best. But go ahead–
you are making us give an answer for what we believe –from Paul and its
good to get it out somewhere even if its a blog.
To sum it up: we just don’t want to ‘do church’ like these institutions do.
I don’t care who you are or what you’re doing but I hope I never sound
personally attack the writers here like you do. Issues?
January 11th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Enough Already! said:
January 11th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Good point, Enough Already!
Good point, ChurchGirl!
Good point, Church Girl!
Good point, Not Telling!
Good point, Anonymous!
Love ya, sis!
Sam
PS, ChurchGirl since I outed you, I’ll out myself. I am:
John444
An Unscrupulous Man
Red deVille
Stupid Reader
The Church Lady
Christ Himself
I feel all warm and fuzzy inside …
Insane Warbler
The Church Lady
Tea-Totaling Monk
Jack Helser
Samaritan
Anonymous (1 or 2 posts way back when)
That is my complete blog-sexual history. It’s been fun - I genuinely enjoy you guys - but if my multiple IDs really bugs you, just say the word, and I’ll scram.
Sam
January 11th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
I would like to share my exegetical concerns and rebuttal regarding the tithe being a tenet exclusively practiced under the law; therefore, making the tithe a spiritual practice that is no longer “binding” for the N.T. believer, but it seems the conversation has turned elsewhere…………I do admit that I have loved the spirited debates and the “rich” diversity of thought and will continue to think more deeply about life……
However, because of the nature of the conversation, which I admit I have engaged in copiously, I cannot continue to blog due to the fact that I have become too brusque…….I deeply regret the use of satiric speak and literary devices that I have used to “assault” the bloggers on this site. Unfortunately, I have not embodied the spirit of the text, for that matter the spirit of love, so I can no longer consciously justify my blogging…….I have become my own worst “enemy”:)
My admission of wrongdoing unfortunately only compounds my passion for theological debate, yet I must heed my personal conviction to stop. I so badly want to debate this issue of the tithe, discussing its exegetical, historical, and even moral significance, nonetheless, I cannot because of my own potential for incendiary language……..so please forgive me and God bless and I will continue to work on being more “loving” in my speech…………
January 11th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Cowboy, after all the abuse and condescension you’ve dished out over the past few weeks, I just have one thing to say:
Your name should be “Coward”.
If you ever had anything worthwhile to say, you squandered your opportunity and you leaving only confirms our opinion that you never had anything concrete to argue. Your apology means nothing to me.
I don’t run this site, but I’m still waiting for someone to put forth their view as to why the tithe is a good idea. Wouldn’t that be great if someone actually gave us a good argument for the other side? Any takers?
January 12th, 2007 at 8:44 am
Rae?
Are you up for it?
January 12th, 2007 at 8:47 am
Weak. Predictable, but weak.
January 12th, 2007 at 9:28 am
Hi FICM,
I posted a hypothetical statement in support of tithe-like giving in the thread My Tiny Book of Tithing which David Mackin sent in.
Essentially, my post argues that the IC’s translation of the OT tithe to NT believers is only partial and mis-directed. For example, to foist the tithe off on Christian’s, it must be ported from old covenant to new covenant, converted from food to money, priesthoods of Aaron/Levi replaced by the clergy, 10% of the increase changed to 10% of gross income, etc. In other words, there are at least a half dozen twists needed to port the tithe to the Church.
Clearly, believers who have bought into the tithe, have also bought into a theological system of reinterpreting scripture from one time and culture to another. So why doesn’t anyone ever take a hard look at those translations? For example, the translation of Aaron/Levi to the Clergy? If we were to take a hard look at what function the OT priesthoods performed, we’d see 2 things basically; Aaron and sons slaughtering and burning the animal/fruit/grain sacrifices, and Levi leading worship through music and dance, etc. Neither Aaron or Levi had a ‘preaching’ type function, rather, their function was praise and sacrifice, or in contemporary terms WORSHIP.
So why wasn’t the distribution of a portion of the tithe translated from Aaron/Levi to those who are involved in leading worship today?
Poll the worship team(s) at nearly any church in the US and find out what/how they’re paid. Chances are, you’ll find out that they’re not. In fact, my involvement for decades in ‘leading worship’, especially in the last 10 years, often consumed 8-12 hours per week; midweek practice session, Saturday dress rehearsal, and 2-3 services on a Sunday. To the average church goer, it looks like the worship band is there just an hour a week - after all, that’s all most people see of their worship leaders - some even boil it down to 10-20 minutes of music … as in ‘why should we pay someone for just 20 minutes’ of music …
From that perspective, the music situation in the IC is deplorable, worship relies on a handful of unpaid volunteers whose ‘new music’ is never heard by the body because there are few performance slots available. So, instead of OT temple worship (which was 24×7) translating to the IC as a ’round the clock’ activity, it has been scaled back to just an hour or 2 per week.
If we try to make that OT to NT translation, why aren’t the church buildings (the NT equivalent of the temple in Jerusalem and synagogues in the outlaying areas of Israel) holding worship 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?
The same fire/desire for worship is in me and countless worship leaders I know - though I am no longer an IC goer, I still enjoyed just singing and playing in a sanctuary, and often did even mid-week when no one was around - for the simple reason that I wanted to worship, and wanted worship music to be heard/played in the sanctuary. Strange things happened when I did that on occasion - people who came to the church building for other reasons came into the sanctuary and just listened, prayed, sang along, and then quietly left, refreshed.
But since the church does not help worship leaders at all, those who have been given a ‘new song’ or a ’song of the Lord’, often do nothing with them since there’s no place to play them, and most don’t have the means to record them. I only came into the equipment to do recording in my early 40’s - by then my talent was waning. I can only imagine what could have been done had I had the means in my 20’s and 30’s to record.
Nope, the ‘body’ just keeps funneling money into a building, programmes, clergy, and the music of the Lord goes unheard, and the Lord is not worshipped round the clock.
In my article To Tithe Or Not To Tithe: The $earch For Truth, the Lord showed me that it wasn’t a lack of food in His ‘house’ that He was angry about, it had more to do with “NO FOOD = NO WORSHIP” … that food (which God does not need) was given to the Levites and their families, who in turn served (sang/played music) in the temple 24×7. But when the food was cut off, the Levites turned to working the farms to bring food home for their families. Because they were not getting their portion of the food brought to the temple, God was not worshipped.
The story is told in Nehemiah 13:10-11, below:
10 I also learned that the portions assigned to the Levites had not been given to them, and that all the Levites and singers responsible for the service had gone back to their own fields. 11 So I rebuked the officials and asked them, “Why is the house of God neglected?” Then I called them together and stationed them at their posts.
When the tithe was once again distributed to the ‘worship leaders’, worship in the temple resumed, 24×7.
Bringing that forward, since the church by and large fails to support those who lead worship, there is little real worship, and the singers/songwriters/musicians must resort to alternate means of support - which I believe has translated into the modern system of paid concerts (gigs), tape/record/CD sales, licensing, royalty fees, etc. It could be said that because the church has failed to support the worship of God, the worshippers have come up with a system (which is evil IMHO) to make the church pay.
I can only imagine what the Church might look like, if instead of receiving salaries and housing, etc., for being a preacher, they did what the NT says and only accepted food - there would be plenty left over for everyone else then. If instead of buiding cathedrals, etc., people worshipped in homes, how much more would be available to help people with their needs (Acts 2:42-47).
Note, this is just a lament on my part, FICM. As a musician and worshipper, it’s just very sad to me that God is scarecely worshipped in our culture, and the Church seems indifferent about it.
I DO NOT support the tithe at all and DO NOT think that it translates to the NT/Christian at all. What was 10% in the OT to support a segregated priesthood, is now 100% in the NT in that as believers we know everything we have comes from and belongs to God, and in receiving the Messiah, we must give Him ALL of being. The 10% mentality has no place in the NT - we need a 100% mentality now.
My discussion of the tithe above is purely from a worship standpoint - and that aboloshing the tithe as a system of support for temple worship means God is no longer worshipped 24×7 except in rare situations like the IHOP in Kansas City.
But we have nice church buildings; whizbang web sites; pastors have nice houses and drive nice cars; houses in DC.
When a person invests in the IC through tithes and offerings, the beneficiary is CLEARLY the clergy and denomination who holds title on the buidings and land. When a person invests in the NT Christian ‘worship arts’ (the OT tithe was God’s endowment for the worship arts), the beneficiary is God who is worshipped.
How are we robbing God, if indeed we are robbing Him at all?
We are robbing Him of worship.
If ever there was a case for the tithe FICM, that would be it for me - that a people who passionately love and adore God would want to worship Him and see Him worshipped by others ALL THE TIME.
Again, I do not support the tithe - this is just a theorhetical argument on my part, because you asked for one.
Sam
January 12th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Sam,
What an interesting observation!
(Gosh, it’s getting harder every day to be anonymous here.)
Being a musician myself, and having participated in the CBC machine, you’re preaching to the choir (pun intended) about how churches treat musicians. I worked closely with past worship pastors at CBC and other places. They never get a good salary - just enough to get by. They spend all week preparing, teaching, and rehearsing for a 30 minute show on Sunday morning. And if there’s any kind of pastor that gets complaints from everyone, it’s the worship pastor. Nobody likes what you’re doing and are always telling you how it could be better. It’s gotta be the most thankless job in the church. Imagine if they were paid such that they could truly enjoy worshiping God on a daily basis. For that matter, the modern Levites who actually take care of the buildings and facilities are also underpaid and under appreciated. Meanwhile, the pastor whom you can only see by appointment (and only if you’re important enough), is driving a luxury SUV and sends his kids to private colleges. This isn’t just CBC, I’ve seen it in other churches, too.
I remember one day tallying up how much time I spent doing music and other related activities for church on Sunday. It was far more than 10% of my time during the week! I stopped giving money after that, since I figured that if time really is money, then no one could guilt me into giving more than I was already.
The Nashville CCM machine exists largely due to the poor treatment of worshipers in the IC. To do music full time, you have to sell your soul to a record label, and ultimately it’s the church that suffers for it. Sure there are some benefits to wide distribution of worship music, but it shouldn’t have to be that way.
I don’t believe in the tithe either, but I’m also tired of the disparity in the way churches treat (and pay) the modern-day Levites who are not “pastors”. It wasn’t always this way. Composers like Bach, Handel, Mozart and others were sponsored to write church music. God is still worshiped through their gifts to the church.
I know this rant is kind of off-topic, but it was too close to my heart to let it go.
January 12th, 2007 at 10:41 am
As I predicted, the coward ran away when challenged.
Hey, does that make me a PROPHET?
January 12th, 2007 at 10:52 am
That was quite a post Samaritan. Very informative, well-written and very clear. Good job!
January 12th, 2007 at 11:06 am
It doesn’t take very long perusing this blog to see where most of the posters stand on tithing. Few people are willing to stick their neck out to get it chopped off by a knee jerk emotional reaction, versus a thoughtful dialog….just a thought…:o)
Once we get a strong personal bias on a particular subject, we can sometimes get a little blind to reason and are unwilling to admit that we may be wrong…we just keep our mouths continuously filled with our rehearsed and prepared arguements and spew them out without praying or seeking God’s view…
My personal belief is that tithing is an issue of the heart. (Where your treasure is, there your heart is also) When Jesus was observing the giving in the temple, and the rich men came in haughtily tossing in their ‘payments’, while the poor widow ‘offered her sacrifice’, Jesus did not discredit the giving, He addressed the attitude. Additionally, when the lawyers were challenging Him on paying taxes, He responded with “Render unto Cesaer the things that are Cesaer’s and to God the things that are God’s.” It would be easy to assume from this comment that a portion of our treasures belong to God, or I’m certain that Jesus could have communicated that clearer…:o)
Also, when Jesus tore up the temple in response to the ‘corruption’ *gasp* that was evident way back then, His anger was directed at the moneychangers He did not go on to release the sheep from their giving….Jesus took many opportunities to challenge the traditions of men–the sabbath, fasting, the washing of hands, but his dealing with giving was always with the attitudes of the heart, not the act of giving itself.
In taking care of widows, orphans and parents, Jesus was clear that our giving should benefit them first, not deny them so we can give to the ‘church’, where we get strokes back by our government tax credits or recognition from others….
Those who would decry the corruption that has been present in church throughout history, are YOU making sure that selfishness and laziness are not the real reason you do not give? If so, are you, as Job could confidently say; (Job 29:12-16)? Do you actively seek out satisfactory alternatives to make sure you are not just taking the abundance God has given you to be a steward over, and using it only for your own benefit, but are searching out where God may want you to be a minister of your time, talents AND treasure???
January 12th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Thanks, FICM.
Sometimes I just let my mind wander about what the Church might look like if the OT/Tithe/Temple translation to NT/Church had been more goal oriented. Has anyone ever asked the question “what did the tithe accomplish from God’s perspective” … the tithe accomplished worship ’round the clock. IF then we were going to implement a tithe-like system in the NT/Church, shouldn’t it have the same benefits for God?
When I first moved from Seattle to Princeton, IL (pop. 7200) in 1999, I was shocked to find 27 churches in town! That’s 1 church buildling for every 266 people! Yikes! Each of them has a worship team of course, but because of denominational divisions, the musicians/singers rarely get together except for an annual town-wide Good Friday service.
Imagine if instead of 27 church buildings in the town with 27 small congregations divided by denominationalism/doctrine, there was 1 Church / Community like Jesus wants … instead of the overhead of 27 buildings, 27 pastors, etc., there was just 1 building, 1 community of believers, and all the musicians were pooled and in unity, and worked together to bring worship and praise before God in the 1 building 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The community could come to the 1 building at any time during the day/week, and worship, dance, sing, pray in an environment of worship. That picture more closely translates to the OT tithe system than the system of building/clergy support known as the tithe today.
That kind of sytem would probably be better for evangelism too - in that it would meet people where they’re at - let them go to the place of worship and get ‘filled up’ at any time they need it, instead of having to wait for a Sunday morning service.
My friend David Yeubanks, who is in Kennewick Washington, tells the story of his home, dubbed the Prayer Shack which he opened to people as a hang out, 24×7 … it is amazing to me that someone opened their home to believers like that, when 99% of churches lock the doors after ‘business’ hours.
But I don’t think we’ll ever see such a thing on the earth - on a large scale basis - as long as pride and greed continues to triump