That's the question Boundless writer Scott Croft asks.
And his answer:
I believe the Bible to teach that all sexual activity outside of marriage is sin, and all romantically oriented physical activity is sexual activity. In my view, this includes premarital kissing.
Well, as I said before, "It's not premarital kissing, if you don't plan on getting married." But I still love the phrase, and I'm totally using it with my friends.
Also, Boundless has a blog. It's great fun.
OK, I’ll start this one off…
Good thing Doug never kissed Donna before they were married, eh?
Indeed. Or even held hands
Well…in our modern mega flesh driven society I wonder if anyone has recently done a poll asking the following question:
“If you kissed the man/woman who is now your wife/husband, prior to marrying, did it ultimately end up becoming more sexual than just kissing, prior to marrying?”
What do you think the polled answer would be? And, if the overwhelming evidence is that for the majority of those kissing prior to marriage it ended up becoming more sexual than just kissing do you think this concerns the Lord?
How much of our living in a fleshly society affects the answer we might give to these questions, versus a kingdom mentality of holiness?
Before any reading this think “oh my gosh, what cave did he crawl out of,” I’m not asking these questions as one who wouldn’t fail the test of these questions myself. I’m posing the question – “Does it really matter if we conduct ourselves in a morally upright manner towards the opposite sex?”
Tom, I was brought up “in a cave”. No holding hands, no time alone (ala Bill Gothard) you know what I’m talking about. From personal experince… turns out that causes just as many problems.
So I hear you about being “morally upright”, but is it possible just to be “morally balanced”? Is it possible that this issue, just like religion, is an issue of the heart?
Good morning BTW.
I can’t see how you’d know if you can stand someone kissing you for the rest of your life if you can’t try it out first. I think there is nothing wrong with testing the merchandise before you buy…as long as you don’t do more than sample.
I think kissing in and of itself would not be a sin, but like Tom was saying, it’s what it can lead to. If kissing the person causes you to start having lustful thoughts, then it is causing you to sin and therefore shouldn’t be done. I think that most people could give their girlfriend/boyfriend a kiss on the cheek (or even the lips) without it causing problems…but pulling from what Tom said again, I do wonder how many people can keep it right there and not go further.
So, ultimately, I think it’s what it can lead to or cause you to do (like lusting) that would be of greater concern. If it’s gonna cause you to sin, then you shouldn’t be doing it.
WTFWJD asks,
If kissing my girlfriend passionately has just led me to go beyond this point into more activity of a sexual nature, how is my heart not compromised?
Is it possible to kiss one’s romantic (yet unmarried) partner passionately/romantically, and not have it go further than this, because of an upright heart? Perhaps, but it does seem to be testing a dimension of our spirituality beyond the point of wisdom and godliness.
My wife and I knew a couple who waited for the alter to have their first kiss. It was pretty much a gross, awkward experience for everyone. If anything dating couples should practise kissing to avoid this scenerio.
Joking aside I do think it’s pretty much a heart issue. You can abstain from kissing/sexual touching all you want and still be completely sinful in your heart, which is what I think God cares about more. I definetly grew up with the “cave” mentality. I found that learning to express myself with my then girlfriend was much healthier both spiritually and mentally than trying to live up to some sort of self-imposed exile. It probably depends on what God is personally telling you though.
I waited for my first kiss until after I was married. And I found out not only was he a horrible slobbery kisser with no tenderness but he was the most evil man I’ve ever met. And I started to realize that by the way he kissed. To me, kisses tell alot about someone. I wouldn’t go further. Period! And that is what I think matters.
When Karen and I were married, the pastor made an interesting remark – that he does not marry us, we marry ourselves. We commit to one another by mutual consent … the ‘wedding’ thing is really all about witnesses and official recognition …
Marriage has been complicated – if you notice during a wedding, the pastor says ‘by the power vested in me by God, and by the state of Oregon’ (etc.) … there are really 2 weddings occuring … one the church recognizes, the other the state recognizes … isn’t it funny, the church vows people take about “what God has joined, let man not separate” – yet so often people married in a church setting head to state court for disolution. The state has the power to disolve a state marriage, but who disolves the marriage before God?
I’ve more/less come to the conclusion that people often compromise in marriage – and do not wait for the spouse God has made – that’s what I did the first time around – I had to have it my way, now, and married unwisely … when that blew up, I had no intention of ever remarrying … but then I met KK online (AOL), we were just pen pals – 2 worship leaders in our churches – she in Dwight, IL, me in Kent, WA … but feelings were really stirring – what a wonderful woman – all from just emailing. Then we talked by phone, sent cards and letters, and finally met in person …
Finally I understood Adam’s reaction to Eve! Contemporized, Adam said “Yowsa! You made HER for me?!? Woo Hoo!” … when you meet the one God made, it’s a perfect heart-fit – spirit-mates – soul-mates … I tell you the truth, IF I’d had the means, I would have married KK the first time we met face to face – we spent a 4 day weekend together, which chaperones, and when the time came to go home, I could hardly stand to be separated from her. That was Labor Day weekend, 1996. On my 3rd or was it 4th flight from SeaTac to OHare, in October ’96, we went on a picnic, and there over a several hour lunch, exchanged promises – and made plans for when we could be together for good …
Now in light of what pastor Gary said, that we marry ourselves, I look back on that October picnic, which preceded our wedding ceremony by 8-9 months, and I think to myself that we actually married then – we were consenting adults, loved the Lord, enjoying the relationship He arranged, enjoying each other and the presence of the Holy Spirit … totally sincere about our vows. What’s with the whole “wedding ceremony” thing and the state marriage license?
Her church family recognized our love and received us as a couple from that first weekend – seeing us together was so obvious the hand of God … now realistically, we couldn’t afford to be wed and move in together until KK finished out her school year in June and served her notice, and out of respect for God, and my respect for KK, we were chaperoned throughout our engagement period, and lived in such a way as to honor God and each other.
We did kiss, hold hands, and embraced – and I gotta tell you, when it’s the one whom God made, who makes you go “Yowsa! You made HER for me?!? Woo Hoo!” – waiting is downright painful.
What’s different for us is, neither of us did much ‘audition dating’ with others – we were content to be single – until the Father brought us together … and the feelings were altogether different than for anyone I’ve ever met before – it’s like “just try and keep me away from this woman” …
Do we understand the hebrew/jewish marriage tradition well enough? That fathers often arranged marriages which is the picture of the Father in Heaven arranging and preparing a bride for His Son? Do we understand that marriages in the Bible occurred much younger than they do now? By 16 years was typical, I think …
Guess I think that the typical Christian view of marriage is greatly tainted by our culture, age laws, state involvement … perhaps those young marriages recognize sexual drive, child rearing years, in marrying off people while still teenagers … is it any wonder people succomb to sexual temptation when they reach their 20′s and still aren’t married? Sexual desire begins in the early teens – to wait until the mid-20′s (post college) to fulfill those desires is a lot to ask.
Difficult to figure – except for my children, I wish I’d have remained single and avoided that first marriage disaster. But once I met KK, we could hardly wait to get married – not for sex so much – but because we wanted to be together always.
I wonder if Mr. Croft would have a different take, if he approached marriage from a biblical and historical / cultural view point? Asking people to wait through 10 years of being sexually prepared for marriage and family (puberty at 12-14, marriage at 24), needs more than a “don’t do it answer” … maybe our cultures view of marriage is wrong, or at least not Biblical.
Sam
I don’t kiss anyone. I date but I’ve only kissed one person in my life…my evil ex. I take it very seriously. But if I find someone I’d consider marrying, I’d kiss him first.
In my opinion, a lot of Christians rush into marriage to have sex. This is not a good thing, as many of these relationships dissolve eventually. Waiting until marriage to have sex doesn’t make sense for practical reasons. Marriage only legalizes a committed relationship. It’s a piece of paper. It’s a step we take to make public vows & file a license with the county offices. I think more committed couples should behave naturally and have sex before marriage, that way there is no rush to get married & you can take your time. I am supportive of couples who choose to have pre-marital sex, so long as people are protecting themselves & and are in committed & monogomous relationships. I’m uncomfortable hanging around couples who are waiting until marriage to have sex–too much sexual tension in the air. Also, if people want to avoid being in unhappy relationships, I’d recommend not getting married before the age of 25 or 30.
Cigars on poker night leads to cigarettes.
Weed leads to Meth.
A glass of wine with dinner leads to becoming Catalyst
Amy Grant leads to Marilyn Manson.
Talking on the phone leads to holding hands with leads to kissing which leads to sex.
I’ve been told all these things, and I don’t think it’s true. Some people should never some a cigar, some people should never kiss, and no one should listen to Amy Grant (This came to mind because I was in a used record store last night and saw a cassette tape of “straight ahead” for $2.50. Ahhhh couples skate at Skate World.)
Personally I should never go back to Mexico. Well, certain places in Mexico. Or the choir room at CBC.
It’s an interesting delima. No sex (holding hands, being alone) until marriage = no relationships until marriage. Therefore it’s not possible to wait until 25+ or even 21 in some cases.
Add to that no college, or outside education, and no friendships outside of the church and you’ve got Greg Harris’s Households of Faith Community Church.
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BT ~ here’s to you finding a non-slobbery, sensitive Kisser to replace the memories of evil man! God has a habit of giving us new joyful experiences that kick out the effects of the old ones.
I agree with you that it’s ok to “test the merchandise before you buy…as long as you don’t do more than sample”. I think it’s being a wise shopper! Which means you are being a good steward of your heart!
I also agree that it’s good not to kiss everyone you date because you are still guarding your heart ‘with all diligence’. The Kiss expresses too much to waste on those you would never consider marrying. A person may feel unworthy of you if he doesn’t get a kiss, but in this case he isn’t. Kissing has a lot to do with letting that person know you feel he is ready for your Sacred Trust.
It is my opinion, that you shouldn’t even talk to a member of the opposite sex. Or be in close proximity to them. Because as we all know…
…talking closely, leads to dating, which leads to kissing, which leads to S-E-X.
Birth leads to sex, Catalyst, therefore, abortion is the Christian thing to do.
I think that Christians often confuse a desire for sex with sinning. If I were to find someone attractive and date her, I would expect that at some point there would be some natural desire for me to want to have sex with her. If I didn’t have that desire, I think the dating wouldn’t last very long as I’d lose interest. We might remain friends, but I wouldn’t pursue her any further. That sounds pretty normal, doesn’t it? So why do Christians equate sexual desire with sin (lust)? Christians in general are in denial about sexual urges and let’s just be honest here – what guy is going to willingly get married without the hope of a sex life with his future wife? This puts Christian men in a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” mental dilemma. They want to get married so that they can have sex, but feel incredibly pressured and guilted into not even being able to think about it! Talk about screwing with your head! (pun intended) God designed us to have sexual desires, and to paint them all with the same brush is ignorant.
There must be a difference between “lust” and “desire”. Merriam-Webster defines the former as “intense or unbridled sexual desire”. If those thoughts of sexual desire consume you to obsession, then it’s probably fair to say you’re sinning then. But to have a natural desire for sex with someone you find attractive does not immediately condemn you to the bowels of Adulterous Hell. The Boundless guys would like you to think so.
His arguments that “prove” that the Scriptures condemn kissing outside of marriage are hollow, and he uses a classic slippery-slope logical fallacy to convince people he’s right. He connects the idea of lust with kissing and therefore sin. This is no different than Harold Hill convincing the gullible townsfolk that playing pool will corrupt the youth and therefore the best thing to do is to distract them by teaching them to play music (and buy his band instruments). Instead of trombones, Boundless sells books and magazines as part of a “ministry” of Focus on the Family. Mr. Hill would have been proud.
How long before this thinking will require full length Burqas at PBC?
I don’t know what the proper, Biblical answer is on this, but the idea of not kissing before you’re married seems ridiculous to me! Of course kissing leads to other things, but that’s the way God intended it to be. If you think about it, simply being interested in someone leads to “other things†– it’s a natural progression.
I didn’t get married until my late twenties, so I dated other men (mostly boys actually) and did my fair share of pre-marital smooching. My husband was quite the “wild child” in his single days as well, and we don’t have any hang ups about it. Now, neither one of us would necessarily qualify as the poster child for Godly relationships, but I think church puts way too much emphasis on this stuff. No, it’s not good for young kids to be out getting to “know” each other in the biblical sense, but at the same time do we want our young people to work so hard at trying to be perfect and disciplined that they marry people who they may or may not have any type of physical chemistry with?
I have heard sermons and been counseled on how pre-marital anything will cause problems later on down the road in a Godly marriage, yadda, yadda, yadda… I’ve been married now for over two years and can tell you that our marriage seems to be un-affected by what we did or didn’t do with other people before we met. It’s not like we talk about it all the time and compare stories! I mean, of course in a perfect world I would have met my husband before I ever dated anyone else and he would be the only man I’ve kissed, etc. That would be totally amazing and best-case scenario, but it just didn’t happen that way.
On top of that, I think it’s gross how there are certain GenChurchers who think more highly of themselves and look down on the rest of us just because they “claim†to have kept their relationship 100% pure in God’s eyes – what’s worse, doing a little pre-marital making out or being a dishonest, prideful a$$ clown? To me, the deception and pride would be more harmful to your spirit than the lack of self-control in a dating relationship. I think that God has grace for those who are honest and open about what they are or aren’t doing, regardless of what it is. Isn’t it more biblical to be honest and humble about your lifestyle than to mess around in secret while portraying a false image?
In my opinion, any church that involves itself in “LAWS” as opposed to “EXAMPLES” has real “ISSUES”.
I wish our society would focus more on the principle of “Actions have Consequences”…where consequences have the ability to be either good or bad.
If I as a young man “kiss” a girl, my action has several consequences. 1. It deepens my love for said girl. 2. It stirs up sexual desires that would like to be taken further and require restraint to resist. 3. It results in the knowledge of whether said girl is a good or bad kisser. 4. It records into my mental database of people I’ve shared a romantic piece of my life with.
Essentially, I just feel that this world would be better served if each of us would pass down to the next generation an open dialogue of “WHY” things are sometimes good or not good to do.
I was a virgin ’til I was almost 30. I had never romantically kissed a girl ’til then. I had several close “girl friends” and even a few “girlfriends,” but I grew up in a BT environment of STAY AWAY from that stuff, and by the time I was older (even though I had gone to secular college and had a number of opportunities to do the “wrong” thing) I was just too damn scared by then. (don’t even get me started on how this abstinence created such a spirit of lust for me! that’s a whole other blog.)
Anyways…I had become what I wish no other young person becomes…an uneducated rule abider! I didn’t REALLY know why I shouldn’t do this stuff. I just didn’t do it.
But when I got into a situation with a close friend, where we were both frustrated with our romantic lives, and spent far too much time together, and flirted way too much, eventually the barriers came down and almost 30 years of hard work got tossed out the window.
To make it worse, the “carnality” of it was so pleasing (sin for a season type thing) we essentially continued in this lifestyle even though we knew we had no intention of dating/marriage. And to make BAD even WORSE…after it ended it wasn’t very much longer that I started dating my future wife. I finally fully realized ALL the reasons why I should have not done it, and wished sooooo much someone had honestly explained it to me ahead of time!
I gave my virginity to someone I didn’t love (at least in a marriage sense). I hurt a friend. I have the mental baggage from being with someone other than my wife. I had tremendous guilt from sinning in such a flagrant manner. I had the shame of telling my wife how I had come so close to waiting that whole time to find her, only to cash it in for friends-with-benefits type selfishness.
It reminds me of a close friend who grew up with me at BT/TCHS. His dad drank beer pretty regularly. Mine didn’t. One day his dad simply told him…”son, you can drink this stuff if you want, but let me tell you a couple things about it. 1.) it tastes terrible, 2.) you do stupid stuff if you drink too much of it, and 3.) you can kill yourself and others if you do it and drive.”
Me…I was just told not to do it. It became taboo. Now luckily I never had the problem with drinking I had with sex. But I have come to understand that there’s nothing wrong with a beer now and again. And again. And again.
I guess my point to this long-winded confessional is: What was the old Saturday morning cartoon. Knowledge is power? I could of used more knowledge when I was younger. Honest dialogue with someone who would honestly tell me why an action may or may not have good consequences.
And I plan on being as honest with my kids as I can. Yes, kids, sex is GREAT, but there’s a LOT more to it than how it feels, so I want you to know why you might just want to wait a bit!
I’ve heard the same things, but I have yet to hear one true example of this happening.
I think the whole thing stems back to the puristic ‘nazarene’ thinking , (as in the n. denomination) you can’t dance, go to movies, kiss, drink a glass of wine. I’ve heard one such pastor declare often that he had never let a drop of wine touch his lips. He was so proud of that. My thought was he is sure missing out on alot and what’s this obsession with lips? And then my thought was, what an axx – how is this supposed to help 90 percent of his audience feel like walking with God is do-able? What it does is gets the attention off Jesus and puts it smack dab on his stupidaxx lips that he’s so proud of.
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so true, but I’d take it further and wonder when MFI is going to write such clothing requirements in their leadership manual.
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The Jean Jumper is the Christian Burqa.
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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000A30PWA/dealtime-app-mp06-20/ref=nosim
You have a point!
Grey Sheep,
Thanks for sharing your story and it reads very easily so it doesn’t seem long-winded (how else are you going to tell the story unless you tell it, right?)
Such a great example of why creating fear in others doesn’t have the results intended. Honest dialogue is about love and legalistic pressure is about fear and intimidation. We have learned what not to do, now to do it differently and with love. Good luck with your kids! You can’t go wrong trying out your new approach because your kids will know you are motivated by true love not fear.
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Ha! Sounds like Scrupe is having an influence on you Sam!
Thanks, TCR!
If my kids turn out even HALF normal it’ll be a miracle! Anyone here who knows me knows that’s the truth!
God Bless.
One of the things I’m hearing tinges of here, is the “either/or argument.”
EITHER we sin, and admit we’re sinners, so of course we sin, OR we live in terrible frustration of repressed desires.
Fortunately Jesus gives us a better option than these two. It is connected with honesty, humility, confession, repentance, and accountability.
We can honestly come before Him and tell Him what we already know “Lord, I’m weak, I’m horny, I enjoyed it, but I know I messed up.”
We can humbly come before Him, “Lord, I acknowledge the error of my ways, and I need your grace and strength.”
We can come confessionally before Him, “Lord, I messed up, and I agree with You that it was sin, and I thank You that You forgive me.”
We can come repentively before Him, “Lord, I am making a decision to turn away from this behavior and turn back towards You for grace and strength to obey.”
We can come accountably before Him, “Lord, I can’t seem to navigate this successfully on my own, so I acknowledge my need for more of You, and I’m going to ask you to help me find a safe person to help hold me on course.” (By the way, I don’t subscribe to upwards/leadership accountability, as the biblical principle for accountability. Accountability, on the human level, can just as well be to another brother or sister friend we know, trust, and believe will pray for us, and keep their mouth shut.)
When my wife and I met with moral failure in our courting days these were the things we were advised to do, and we did them. They worked, and I’m very glad we did it. We messed up, but we refused to continue what we knew was sin.
If we simply give in to that which we know is sin, we abandon ourselves to the flesh, and problems will follow, otherwise Paul is completely wrong when he says, “he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption.” It may take some time for that corruption to show up, and it is not likely to be a corruption you would have anticipated, but it will exist. Often the greatest corruption we experience in this life is a defiled conscience that causes us to pull back from the Lord, either a short distance or a long distance. He is a holy God, but He is a compassionate God. Better to deal with our failures His way, and keep Him close, than to walk in disobedience and experience any degree of distancing.
Almost equally unnecessary and wrong, is submitting to a spirit of condemnation. I can come to Jesus, admit I messed up, accept his grace and forgiveness, and walk away uncondemned because of what Jesus has done for me. Condemnation serves no good purpose.
I’ll remember that when I talk about titheing. (Grins)
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I’m just glad it’s not the other way around. Sam is boring.
‘Scrupe
In my years of ministry I have counseled with some true multiple personalities, and I’m beginning to wonder here….
Just kidding…
This could sure be a safe environment for a multiple to express themself (selves), though…
It is fun, Tom … wonder if that should be a measure of whether or not a ‘church’ is healthy? Do you have fun there? Can you be yourself? Goofy? Serious? Being pressed into someone’s mold, or enjoying the fellowship, conversation, presence of brothers and sisters – family?!?
If that’s the case, we should all be heading to Wendell’s Church…cause Judah’s having more fun than all of us!
No sex is a good thing…..because sex leads to dancing.
Scrupe,
I think the reason so many folks visit this blog is because for the first time in their life, in the context of the body/church, they’ve found a place where they can speak up, be heard, and be respected for their viewpoint. I.e. it is just plain fun to be real instead of religious.
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No, sex is a good thing, for the church…because sex leads to guilty feelings which leads to excessive tithing to make up for the guilt.
And future generations guilted into tithing!
“I can’t see how you’d know if you can stand someone kissing you for the rest of your life if you can’t try it out first. I think there is nothing wrong with testing the merchandise before you buy…as long as you don’t do more than sample. ”
I hate this argument. As a parent I think I would have to get out the “neutering shears” for anyone hanging around here thinking about getting a sample. I suspect many of the commenters who have the “you wouldn’t buy a car without taking it for a test-drive” attitude don’t have children.
At least not daughters!
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I test drove, and so did my kids. So did, I suspect, the majority of people, including most pastors that I have known (Yes, I asked them).
It’s human nature.
I do have children and I don’t want them to have premarital sex…but I don’t want them to go through the same hell I did for 10 years just because they have feelings that God put there in the first place.
Wait for sex until marriage? Absolutely! But I don’t agree with not kissing before marriage. If you make something so mysterious and out of reach, I think it only leads to a greater curiousity and temptation.
Um, doesn’t that also describe SEX?
Forbidden fruits are the most tempting, are they not?
Anybody here want an APPLE?
Let me put it this way…everyone I know who waited for marriage but kissed first found the right person because they were able to find out what they wanted and didn’t want beforehand.
Everyone I know who waited for marriage without kissing first is divorced. That, to me provides enough statistics.
You don’t have to eat the whole apple to know whether you want to buy it or not. One bite and you have a pretty good idea what you want from there. But if you don’t taste it, you constantly wonder what it tastes like.
If you want to make the right decision, you have to find out what you like and don’t like in the first place. How else do you know unless you try it first?
That sounds exactly like an endorsement for pre-marital sex.
In your mind, because that is probably pretty much all you thought about or think about.
It depends on if you are thinking of just satisfying human need, then it sounds like premarital sex. But if you are thinking of long-term compatibility, premarital kissing sounds like premarital common sense to me.
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So kissing is cool, but anything BEYOND that is not?
Where do you draw the line? Who makes that decision? If lust in the heart is as big a sin as if we had acted on that lust, does it make any difference?
Is sin a sin if it’s not as big a sin?
Is kissing as big a sin as fornication, if the lust of the mind is present in both?
(Note: This is simply a philosophical discussion to me, and I am not trying to upset you. These are things of the past for me, and, frankly, I am glad for that.)
This discussion reminds me me of a joke.
Jonah enters the confessional and says: “Father, I have sinned”
Priest says: “What is your sin?”
Jonah: “I went all the way with a girl I met at a party last weekend”
Priest says: “Was it it Jill Jones?”
Jonah: “No”
Priest: “Was it Sally Smith?”
Jonah: “No”
Priest: “Was it it “Betty Baker?”
Jonah: “No”
Priest: “Well, never mind – do 10 hail Mary’s and drop a fiver in the poor box”
Jonah: “Bless you Father”
So Jonah leaves the church and goes to the car where his classmates Hank and ‘Dell are waiting. Hank asks: “How’d it go?”
Jonah says: “Great! I got 3 new leads.”
Did you ever wonder how successful former priests would be if they dated their parishioners? It sort of boggles the mind!
Reforming Heathen, I believe if you are a Christian that when it’s too far, you’ll know.
It’s normal to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. God intends us to be intimate with each other, that’s why Eve was made for Adam. I believe kissing and touch are essential elements of building a strong positive relationship, but there is a point where you’re quite right, it’s easy to go “too far.”
Where that point is, I believe, is different for different people – Christian or not. The Lord puts that little voice within us, call it the working of the Holy Spirit or whatever you like. When you go against what that voice is telling you, it’s sin – only you and the person you are seeing know where that barrier is.
If you get the same feeling you had when you stole the cookie out of the cookie jar against mom’s wishes, that’s where you’re sinning – stop there and go back. Cool off for a while and do something else.
Perhaps, but I think the issue comes up when the PARENT worries about whether the CHILD knows how far is TOO FAR.
If the parent is worried about whether the child knows how far is too far, then the child is too young or hasn’t had the right discussion with the parents. Prayer and trust in God has alot to do with it too.
I love my kids very much but there will come a time in their lives where I can’t protect them like I want and they’ll have to start thinking for themselves. I’m just going to make sure that they are much more informed than I was at B.T. and be a little less cautious but alot more protected. My total naivety of the real world outside B.T. led to me being in much greater danger of being absorbed by it.
How can you develop your immune system if you are never exposed to any diseases or germs? You have to prepare your children for reality. That is the only way they will be able to fight it.
Not if they attend PBC, they will do their thinking for them, from what I have heard.
Well, we agree on that!
“How can you develop your immune system if you are never exposed to any diseases or germs?”
Terrible metaphor given the topic.
Good point, bad metaphor.
In connection with this blog discussion, my wife and I were discussing the issue of discipleship, as it relates to morality, but even way beyond morality, to every aspect of our lives.
Here’s my question. I’m going to post a recommended prayer, and I’d like to know if anyone would say that such a prayer does not reflect a godly approach, or that it misses biblical truth, or would not be something God would want any of us to pray?
Here it is:
“Lord Jesus, today I am, to the best of my knowledge, committing 100% of my life to You. And to whatever degree I think I am doing this, but I’m fooling myself, and not really doing so, but am holding back in some areas, I invite You to so work with me that I would recognize I was holding back, and enable me to committ even further. I invite You to bring any number of crosses or challenging processes into my life to bring the necessary changes you desire for me. No matter how challenging, how confronting, or how intense those challenges may come, I don’t want You to hold back on me, because I want to be fully conformed to the image of Jesus. I don’t want to want anything You don’t want for me. I don’t want to think, believe, or do, anything that You deem unwise, unhealthy, or ungodly for me. When I complain that the challenge is too great please strengthen me in my struggle but please don’t back off. Keep on working within me to become everything You want me to become. Amen!”
In some ways, this prayer seems to me to be an amplification of Philippians 3:10-12
” 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.”
Make sense?
If you would never pray such a prayer as this why not? Where would such a prayer move us into wrong spiritual territory?
If God is perfect, and all His ways are perfect. If God is wise, and perfectly loving, then how could such a prayer be anything but appropriate?
Nemesis –liked your posts and just for the record being in a Nazarene
youth group –those were the boys you had to watch out for –not the ones in the world. All hands and definately into making out.
How in the world can you know if you want to marry someone if you don’t kiss them. I think its wierd and I laughed at the comment someone made on
Greg Harris’s church world –that makes such perfect sense now in light of
his son’s book ‘ i kissed dating goodbye’ Do you know he just wrote a book on
marrying your church and not just dating it?
What if you marry a church before you kiss it? Maybe thats why this blog was
created.
The kissing question is interesting, but even more interesting I think is how CBC/MFI tries to control what married couples do or don’t do. I remember Glenda telling us in Christian Womanhood that oral sex was wrong. She gave no reason, no backup, nothing.
My MFI church held that it was ok, but that A. sex was wrong because it might tempt men into becoming homosexual.
There are others who say, The marriage bed is undefiled. But my Bible reads, “Let the marriage bed be undefiled.” So, what defiles it?
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That’s an interesting question. I asked a pastor once about that, and he said that nothing between a man and his wife was taboo. That’s an interesting stance, isn’t it?
KariMichelle,
Of the classes I took at PBC, Christian Womanhood was the most ridiculous. I remember when we learned about “color draping” and how important it was to dress according to your “season” (turns out I’m a spring, not a fall, like I had previously thought). I also remember when they brought in the 3 most popular senior boys so they could tell us what they found attractive or unattractive about a girls choice of wardrobe (they all hated the mermaid skirts). What a bunch of vapid, useless information to have to pay for! Not one bit of it has been useful in my 20 years of married life.
I’d like to know what Bible verse Glenda gave to back up her opinion (and I wonder if Ken agrees with her!).
Good times, Jona! I don’t remember all the boys who were there that day, but I remember Doug Zieber being one of them.
That day was one of the very FEW I remember. I learned that if you have buttons going all the way up the back or front of a skirt, boys imagine unbuttoning all of them. I remember Brother Ken telling us that a T-shirt was too tight if it hit your tummy right after it covered your chest. I remember being forced to write a letter to our parents which was supposed to be a healing thing and I sat there with nothing to say, because I had a good relationship with them. I remember having to write our own dating standards. I also remember getting an education I didn’t really want. Like Glenda telling us about counselees who masturbated with carrots, that fear turned her on (and chiding us for more of us not admitting that it did us), and that there were in fact people who were born with both sex organs. I’m pretty sure my parents didn’t send me to Bible College to learn all of that!!!! I wonder what the boys were learning!!!!!
KariMichelle,
The other 2 boys were Marc Cargill and Roger Walters. There was a lot of giggling that day.
I’ll ask Joey what the boys were learning!
Stop, please stop…I can not believe what I am reading…this is so ridiculous…no wait… I am curious…what were the boys learning?
I’m curious…were the guys, in their classes, ever told that oral sex was a sin?
(I was a student there and don’t remember this being taught.)
I find this extremely hard to believe!!! Just out of curiosity, is this a common belief among other Christians? I’ve been raised in church my entire life and have NEVER heard of such a thing! If anyone has a biblical reason to back this up I’d love to hear it.
Sin or not.. sounds disgusting to me. Especially since when working in a laboratory and doing semen analyses under the microscope… GET THE NOSE PLUGS OUT!!
I recall the over-arc of sexual thought being pushed down on me growing up at BT as “God created all things for a purpose” and stuff like oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, etc. was taking God’s purpose and perverting it.
Then again, I do recall that at PBC they taught “nothing” was out of bounds inside of marriage, although I don’t think they ever condoned masturbation. If I recall right, the year I was there was the year that Dobson or somebody “big” came out in a book saying that masturbation was fine. Seemed like there were a lot of “less-guilty” looking dudes on campus that day!
This is off the subject (although fascinating it is), but I was listening to random Christian radio stations the other night and actually heard that Dr. James Dobson reccomends holding boys back in school or starting them late in kindergarten and/or the first grade. His reasoning? Girls mature faster than boys and if you put boys in a class where the girls are younger than them then it “levels the playing field”.
That is, quite literally, one of the most inane things I have ever heard.
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If I have to dance, then I won’t have sex.
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never heard amy grant…..what is her deal though?
uhm… what?
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why do you say she will leas to marilyn manson?
because she, like mary, is evil!!! dun dun dunnnnnnn
( this is silly, did you not read the next paragraph?)
cheers
This explains why Serj never responded to anything on the other posts…I don’t think he read them all the way through.
yup. Once he realizes that everyone here used to be just like him, and therefore he can’t say anything that we haven’t thought or heard a thousand times before, he’ll fade away. Just like the rest of them.