Quote for the Day
Posted on March 2nd, 2007 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryI just think it would be wise, if we would stop, stand in the gap, build a hedge and turn the tide. Can I hear an amen?
- Frank Damazio exhorting the congregation in his sermon last week.
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March 2nd, 2007 at 9:01 am
What was the context of that remark, Justin?
March 2nd, 2007 at 9:41 am
I was there for the sermon. It was very different from the ’series’ mode he is usually in. He said he had a dream that he awoke from at 4:30am. He and some of his staff, 8-10 people, were in the bottom of a desert canyon. They were searching for a way out, when an immense quantity of water began pouring over the top and falling down into the canyon where they were. There was no way out! They were doomed!
That is when he awoke. Then he said the Lord gave him some scriptures. Isaiah 59:15 & 16. Also Ezekiel 22:25-30.
I was stunned! These scriptures are very judgemental of the priesthood, and talk about how there is no one found to stand in the gap. Read them for yourself….incredible. It gave me a feeling that something is ready to come unglued at CBC. It is hard for me to judge this, because of so many past things that cloud my picture. We will see what happens.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:00 am
He also said that he wasn’t sure if it was just a “dream” or if it was a “vision from God”…I only listened to the first half of the sermon so I’m not sure where he ended up…normally those sort of statements really bother me, but I think Frank did a good job of being honest about the fact he wasn’t sure if God was really speaking to him or not…again I didn’t listen to the whole thing so I could be wrong here.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:10 am
I just listened to the message online. My head is still dizzy from this. How he got from “God is about to judge his people for social injustice” to ” we need to pray against the Devil” is beyond me.
Part of the problem is his spin on Isaiah 59. He uses the New King James and his traditional spin on this passage is that it is meant to encourage intercessory prayer. Let’s take a look at another version.
Notice that God is not talking about prayer at all. The judgment that is about to come is the result of God’s people allowing injustice to flourish. God was saying that no one was willing to stand up against those allowing injustice to happen, no one would speak out against them. The flood of judgment was not from the Devil, it was from God!
Let’s look at the previous chapter, shall we?
Notice that God would rather see His people take action than cry, wail, and starve themselves. The best way to get God’s attention is to take care of those who need it most.
He then goes through the passage in Ezekiel, and he was careful to point out the four classes of people whom God was unhappy with. But amazingly, he fails to notice what it is that God is actually angry about!
Again, God is calling them out on their sins, and it is clear that He is most interested in justice! God could not find even one man to protest the evils within themselves. The judgment that was coming was not from the Devil, it was from God.
I suppose how you interpret this dream, and the Scriptures associated with it, are up to the individual. But I can’t help but think that the message is about God judging the church for allowing injustice within its own ranks. What that injustice is, is a matter of opinion, but for what it’s worth, I can’t help but wonder (and perhaps hope) that God is tired of all the money shenanigans and false doctrine at CBC. Rather than being a tool for social justice, the giving of God’s people has been turned into a money machine for the clergy. The “priests” have told the people that the Law is to be obeyed and that grace doesn’t apply to giving. The “princes” of CBC have bought in, and as businessmen are more concerned about God blessing them with more money rather than caring for the poor. The “prophets” of the church continue to support the system with false promises of blessings and cursings. And the people have become convinced that this is not only normal but that it’s more important to be blessed (rich) than to help the poor.
They can pray against the Devil all they want, but I don’t think it will stay the hand of God when he judges his people for what they’ve done.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:13 am
Maybe this is just because I haven’t been to an Evangelical Megachurch in awhile, but what do any of those phrases mean? His entire sermon is one big Christian cliche. He doesn’t say anything of importance.
And yet, the entire congretation still said “Amen”, though I guarantee none of them had a clue what he was talking about.
JP had a great post about this awhile back, but he didn’t really answer the question about what the phrases mean.
Why can’t pastors just speak in normal tones and use normal words that I understand?
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:16 am
Maybe Honor and Glory can answer that question. He seems to use a lot of cliches in his posts.
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:17 am
They don’t really mean anything! It’s all part of their hyper-spiritual mysticism that when you boil it down, there’s nothing left in the practical world to take home. They don’t understand that “interceding” & “standing in the gap” means to actually take physical action against those who are doing wrong. They think it means shouting at demons and skipping lunch.
Argh, this makes me so angry!
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:23 am
Exactly… I think next time I get into a management meeting at work where we can’t come to an agreement I’m just going to use this quote and see what happens! Hey, if everyone is as confused as I am about this they may just forget about the issue at hand altogether. Great diversion, I love it!
March 2nd, 2007 at 11:26 am
Tom? David?……… what is your spin on this?
March 2nd, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Shouting at demons…hilarious.
March 2nd, 2007 at 1:15 pm
This reminds me of when I worked as a consultant and sat through so many meetings where "management buzzwords" were heavily utilized.
heck out this link and you'll see how much the corporate world is like the "church" world. Sometimes I seriously wonder if some Pastors use the technique described on that page when writing their sermons.
Who needs the Holy Spirit when you have buzzwords, great slogans, and a thousand people sitting below you shouting "AMEN!" at anything you say?
March 2nd, 2007 at 1:22 pm
FICM wrote:
I think they all really mean “better thee than me” when discussing judgment, and “better me than thee” when discussing blessing.
You know, in terms of dream interpretation, being in a dead / desert like valley is potentially symbolic - for ALL the building CBC and its IC ilk has done, they basically find themselves in a DEAD HOLE. And the only ones in the DEAD HOLE were Frank, staff, and 8-10 inner circle types? With a deluge coming?
Those “desert canyons” (aka arroyo’s) fill up fast when the rains come with what’s called a “gully washer” sweeping away EVERYTHING in its path. Desert canyons (arroyo’s) are really only good for snakes and scorpions, dying of thirst, etc. Interesting in terms of God’s garden metaphor, and Christ the “living water”.
You would think that if people / institutions were really “building the kingdom”, that any God given dream to affirm the work of man, would have symbology of what God builds - i.e., rivers teaming with life, lush gardens, vines and grapes, fruit, etc.
To “stand in the gap” has to do with a man of God standing between the judgment of God and sinners on the brink of destruction … that is NOT the picture of that dream - where were the sinners they’re standing in the gap for?
To “build a hedge” has to do with protection - but if they’ve dug themselves into a DEAD HOLE and God is sending a deluge, just who/what is it they think they’re building protection from? God?
And turn the tide? Man, it’s not a judgment coming at sinners. It’s Frank & Co. at the bottom of a dead hole they’ve ventured into, and God is sending a gully washer.
The better response is “HELP GOD! GET US OUT OF THIS DEAD HOLE !!!”
;)
Strikes me particularly funny in that it was just the other day I wrote in the Pat Robertson thread that what I’m hearing from the spirit, and expecting from God, is a “deluge” - maybe what the dream means is an outpouring of the Spirit - in which case the appropriate response is “GOD TEACH ME TO SWIM!”
March 2nd, 2007 at 2:07 pm
I looked at the scriptures in Isa. and Ezek. as I went to sleep that Sunday night. I use the NASB now, and I could not see where PF came up the “the enemy comes in like a flood”. Thanks to FICM for the NKJV translation.
My take on this now is that it was a word for Frank, which he couldn’t accept. Specifically, I think it has to do with the Forward Together fund raiser where PF said the money would be used to “retire the debt” on the east campus. When he failed to retire the debt, and used the $$$ to purchase land in Vancouver, I believe he ’stepped over the line’. Remember Ananais and Sapphira? (Acts 5:1-5) The issue was about money, and saying one thing then doing another. Enough time has gone by to allow for repentance on the issue, and there has been none. I’m not a prophet, and I have been personally revolted by the ‘retire the debt’ issue, so I may be looking through colored glasses. We will see what happens.
March 2nd, 2007 at 2:20 pm
You’re welcome, and I wish I had stressed this important difference more than I did. His doctrine about intercession is poorly founded on this single verse that is, in my opinion, poorly translated in the NKJV. But then he and Dick and Kevin have all been guilty of building doctrine on shaky translations of an isolated verse or two.
‘Scrupe, I’d have to concur on your evaluation of the imagery of the canyon. I had the same thought: where are all of the other people that are about to be swept away? It was just him and his cronies, I bet. The more that I think about this, the more I wonder if he has unwittingly revealed (almost prophetically) the judgment of God upon himself and the church. You can disagree with that assessment if you wish, but I find it interesting that they just got done with 21 days of prayer and fasting in the church and his spin on this is that God wants more?
I’m actually looking forward to hearing what he says next week! (I’m shocked, too!)
March 2nd, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Here’s my interpretation of Frank’s dream:
Nah nah nah nah
Nan nah nah nah
Hey hey hey
Good bye
March 2nd, 2007 at 5:01 pm
If you’ll listen to the sermon, Frank said he didn’t know who was in the canyon with him. He said there were 10 or 20 people there whom he didn’t know. So all this talk about “cronies” doesn’t hold a lot of—pardon the pun—water. Any judgment this might “prophetically” reveal (and I’m not sure that it does) wouldn’t apply to other leaders or the congregation at large, but rather only himself.
March 5th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Of course the way Frank controls all the other CBC leaders would make me believe that if he goes down the ship is going with him.
March 5th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
i had deja vu while reading that quote. he gave the same sermon in ‘93! (honestly, no jokes…)
March 5th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Mole report:
Ok, so I just had to go in person to hear the rest of this sermon. I enjoyed the worship. It really was about the Lord and who He is, and I could tell that many of the people enjoyed that place of simply being in God’s presence and focusing on Him.
Then Doug got up and the whole thing shifted. He said something like, “Aren’t you glad we have a mighty God. If you need something from God, now is the time to pray. If you need finances, or healing or whatever, ask Him.” It totally went from all about God to all about me. Aarghh! (quoting FICM)
Then came the tithing speech with reference to Nehemiah, with a statement read in unison about how we give and God will help us build our wall.
There was the video CBC advertisement — I kid you not. Marc Estes introduced a family who had gone through a health crisis, and the families around them helped them practically and financially. This is wonderful, and what the church is supposed to do. But to advertise it like auto insurance??? Join our church and you will be taken care of. (Unfortunately, just like auto insurance, the church only “insures” those with minimal risk. See what happens if you have mental problems.) Aaargh again.
Finally after those video announcements, came the sermon. It was basically a rehash of the previous week. I’m still scratching my head as to how PF came to his dream interpretation and how he could apply those scriptures to it. This is why:
Ravines are not places you should hang out, especially in dry climates. The first good rain, and that ravine turns into an instant riverbed. I’m glad that PF was rescued in his dream, but if that were my dream, I would probably consider it a warning that I was in a precarious place. I would not think it was a place to stay and build and invite others — especially if you are praying for “rain.”
Now the passage in Isaiah, when read in context (as FICM pointed out), is all about the Messiah and His zeal to provide salvation. In fact, in that verse “when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him” — the word “lift up a standard against him” is the translation of just one word: nus. My Bible dictionary says that in this passage it means “the speedy and onrushing manner in which the Lord escorts His Redeemer.”
Does this sound like it’s all about us, and how our prayers hold back the enemy? NO!! It’s about the fiery zeal of God to redeem those He loves, through the person of His Son.
And finally, the whole passage in Ezekiel is about judgment. “I looked for a man…” is basically, where is someone who will repent? Where is someone who will fall on their face before God and ask for mercy like Moses did?
Not once did I hear about the love, the majesty, the fear of God. Not once was the focus upon Him. Not once did I hear about Jesus Christ (who He is) and Him crucified (what He has done). The whole focus was egocentric. It’s the paradigm of CBC, as evidenced by their worship transitions, their advertisements and their sermons.
This appeals to selfish Americans, but it is not the gospel in which the Holy One targets our self-life for execution.
Ok. I’m done. Sorry for soapbox once again.
June 8th, 2007 at 4:03 am
(______ said: “The judgment that was coming was not from the Devil, it was from God…His doctrine about intercession is poorly founded on this single verse that is, in my opinion, poorly translated in the NKJV.”)
While I may concur with certain other of this poster’s conclusions previously posted, I must take exception to the above remark.
Though my personal translation of choice — NASB, 1977 Ed. — follows the NIV interpretation of Is. 59:19b that it is the Lord who comes in like a flood, plenty of other translations follow the NKJV and KJV in saying it is “the enemy” or “a foe” who does the coming in, e.g., the Geneva Bible, the Amplified, Webster’s Bible, J.P. Green’s Literal, Young’s Literal, etc.
In addition, the NIV, ASV, and the Revised Version all have “the enemy” as an alternate translation in their respective margins.
It seems to come down to how the various translators have chosen to deal, or not to deal as the case may be, with the Hebrew word “tsar.” This word comes from the Hebrew root “tsarar,” meaning “to oppress or persecute.” This is the WHO or the WHAT referred to as coming in like a flood. A sampling of Hebrew Lexicons on my desk define “tsar” as follows:
1. Strong’s #6862: “an opponent”
2. Vines Dict. O.T. Words, pg. 70: “adversary, enemy, foe”
3. Gesenius’ Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, pg. 718: “an adversary, an enemy”
4. Wilson’s O.T. Word Studies, pg. 145: “an adversary that distresses”
5. Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, pg. 865: “adversary, foe”
A number of O.T. commentaries could also be quoted to justify this position.
As can be seen, it is inaccurate as well as presumptuous to dismiss out of hand the idea that the one from whom the judgment is coming is the Devil, and to say, rather, that it is coming from God, as well as to pan the NKJV rendering as a “poor” translation. In fact, it has been my experience that the NKJV enjoys greater accuracy and more faithfulness to the Hebrew, and especially to the Greek, in many places than does the NASB.
It follows then, that perhaps PF isn’t so out of line in his interpretation of Is. 59:19b as some posters make him out to be, is it not?
—————————-
(______ said: “But then he and Dick and Kevin have all been guilty of building doctrine on shaky translations of an isolated verse or two.”)
Having sat under Bro. Frank’s teaching ministry for several years at PBC, even accompaning him (back in the day) on several teaching/preaching excursions to other churches, I would be the last person to herald his doctrinal expertise.
Having said that, however, IMO one would be out of line to have the temerity to lump KJC together with PF as one who does this, or even KRI for that matter.
I used to know Kevin Conner quite well, having spent many hours with him going over various biblical subjects. I have all of his published books, as well as a slew of his unpublished personal notes, and have rarely found anyone to make as extensive use of scriptural support to buttress what he teaches as he does.
Admittedly, though KJC does teach a rather stringent position on the tithe — not without Scriptural support — are you saying he espouses the prosperity message, a preoccupation with his own personal ministry to the exclusion of others, excessive discipleship/control by leadership over the flock, a preoccupation with teaching on monetary matters, etc?
AFAIK, he does not.
If anyone can provide specific examples of KJC “building” doctrines on “isolated” verses, I challenge you to cite them, as I would be happy to be proven otherwise.
FWIW, regardless of whatever value this website may provide to the grand scheme of things, and how many true perceptions of the excessess of the IC– many of which I am in agreement with — may be recorded herein, the fact remains that there are too many potshots being made by too many bloggers on a variety of subjects.
These posters, bereft of all the facts, but possessed with seemingly knowing smiles and careless waves of the hand, dismiss opinions different to their own far too often, positions which though they label them as “false” or “faulty,” can be just as ably, if not more so, defended than the opinions which they themselves espouse.
I don’t mean to offend. If this doesn’t apply to you, fine.
In fact, I hope that in the majority of cases it doesn’t.
joebib