City Karma Church
Posted on March 21st, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the The Debate categoryI spent some time emailing a CBC pastor about their Faith Harvest time and Frank's use of Scripture during it. When all was said and done we had gathered about 30 pages of emails and failed to change eachothers mind. He did however help me better understand their "case" in defending this line of thinking.
Here is an article sent to me by a CBC pastor attempting to explain the "Faith Harvest" / "Law of Causation" / "Sowing and Reaping" Doctrine. I may post my response to him later, but for now…
Reaping & Sowing:
I. IT IS A LAW OF NATURE THAT THE REAPING SHALL CORRESPOND TO THE SOWING.
This is part of the general law that, other things being equal, the same cause always produces the same effect. There is no known exception to the law of causation; there is no possible evasion of it. We see it plainly working in human affairs. The eternal constancy of nature assures us that the consequences of which certain conduct is known to be the cause will undoubtedly follow (sin, relationships, health, career, finances).
- The special law of sowing and reaping is that the product of the harvest will be the same in kind as the seed sown. Tares will never produce wheat, nor wheat tares. But each seed reproduces its own kind. This is seen in human affairs. Commercial industry tends to commercial wealth, intellectual study to a state of intellectual culture, etc. It is vain to think that money will buy refinement or that learning is the road to wealth. Each pursuit has its own consequences in accordance with its own nature, finances are included in this principle both naturally and spiritually.
II. THIS LAW APPLIES TO SPIRITUAL SOWING AND REAPING.
- Here the future depends on the past and present by a certain law of causation. No words could more plainly assert that our conduct is shaping our own fate; and these are not the words of James, but of the ApostlePaul, and they occur, of all places, in the Epistle to the Galatians, where the doctrine of justification by, faith is most vehemently asserted! Moreover, they are not addressed to Jews still under the Law, nor to heathen who have not yet availed themselves of the privileges of the gospel, but to Christians who have come into the justification by faith, as it is to Christians that St. Paul says elsewhere, "We shall all stand before the judgment-seat of God" (Rom. 14:10). We are here reminded that the future consequences of conduct are natural, not adventitious-that they are caused by what we are and do, that they flow of their own accord from our lives, and are not assigned from without by any arbitrary decree. We simply reap what our own sowing has produced for us.
- 2.In spiritual things there is a correspondence between what is sown and what is reaped.
(a) Sowing to the flesh produces its own natural harvest-corruption. The mere animal life, the life of worldly interests, the life of the lower self, is itself a life of corruptible things. Its soil and nourishment are earthly and cannot outlast death. When the grave opens all is lost. Even before death thieves steal, and moth and rust eat into the treasures. The soul itself, too, is corrupted by such a life. Its faculties are dissipated and decay away. It descends to the evil state of moral rottenness and death.
(b)Sowing to the Spirit produces its own harvest of eternal life. Spiritual things are eternal things. Treasures in heaven are beyond destroying influences. In proportion as the spiritual within us is cultivated we have what will outlast death and what no grave will ever claim. Already we have an eternal life in living in the things that are spiritual and therefore eternal. Money goes, but faith remains; the pleasures of the senses pall upon us, but the peace of God never fails; self-seeking leads to dissatisfaction, the love of God sustains us with undying interests.
Scriptural Examples of sowing and reaping: the harvesting of grain. The term is used figuratively for the final judgment (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; Rev. 14:15-16), evangelism (Matt. 9:37-38; Luke 10:2; John 4:35-36; Rom. 1:13), and recompense for good (Hos. 10:12; 2 Cor. 9:6; Gal. 6:7-8) or evil (Job 4:8; Prov. 22:8; Hos. 8:7; 10:13; Gal. 6:7-8)
III. APPLICATION OF THIS PRINCIPLE
- As this law applies to all of life, it must also apply to every area specifically, this includes finances. If you plant wheat seed in the ground, you expect an abundance of wheat to be harvested. I know of no farmer that would plant and not expect a return. You invest in a 401k with the complete expectation of seeing a return. You give of your time at a job expecting a paycheck and hopefully a promotion. PLEASE remember that the context of 2 Cor. 9:6 is giving of MONEY, "Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously." Paul is making it very clear that there should be an expectation to receive directly proportinate to what you give. I don't think you can translate this any other way. This is a great scripture to validate the point that if you give of your money sparingly, you will reap a minimal harvest!
- Here is another scripture that pertains to reaping and sowing in the financial arena, 1 Cor. 9:10-12, "Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?" Again context is important. There is both a spiritual and natural context here, and also a financial one as it pertains to material harvest. There is an emphasis here of a hope of receiving something from the sowing of the same kind. You should plow in "hope of sharing" in the harvest… including a material harvest as stated.
- Jesus himself said you should expect a return on your giving, "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." This would be a tough one to refute. It is plain and simple. If you give, IT WILL COME BACK TO YOU. This applies to all areas of your life as we have discussed in the law of reaping and sowing, and again in context, will also apply to things you give materially.
- All of the being said, THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT of all of this is to understand the motive of WHY we would want to be blessed. Paul made it clear that our motives should never be for selfish gain, but for blessing the Lord, others and extending the kingdom. AGAIN, please understand our heart and motive is to see people blessed SO THAT they can bless others and see the kingdom of God advanced. There is great honor and noble rewards to those that desire to see others who are need helped. God blesses us so that we can bless others. This truth applies from Genesis to Revelation. We teach this biblical truth, so that we might have the resources to reach out to the thousands of people monthly that are less fortunate. God fobid that we, you, or any other Christian would teach that God blesses us to build a haven for ourselves on earth, but the kingdom of God. Hence, we are proud of both our teaching and motives in believing God for our finances.
In my humble opinion, God's word is very clear. We are expected to give and give generously and cheerfully. We should expect God to bless us in return. God expects us to invest what He has blessed us with into the lives of others and into the kingdom of God.
I'm not sure what textbook this comes from so if anyone recognizes it I'd love to know.
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March 21st, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Ridiculous. Bobbycock.
This is the same asinine belief that pain and suffering in one’s own life is directly caused by one’s own sin. In other words, if you have a cold or get cancer, then you must have done something to piss off God. You deserve what you get, right?
If there is any “natural law” where sowing = reaping, then explain to me how so many absolutely corrupt people in various countries live their entire lives in spendid riches?
Does this good CBC “pastor” provide a disclaimer that the “reaping” might not happen during this lifetime?
Telling someone that giving money to “God” (aka, the church) will cause you to reap some blessing (during the giver’s lifetime), is simply deceitful. It’s taking advantage of ignorant pew-sitters who do not realise the fact that God’s realm exists where time does not. Time is inconsequential for humans who have a spirit, and God’s promise of “blessings” to those who give may or may not come in the time of our liking.
In other words, I do believe in the “reaping=sowing” law. This is for sure. But I think we must *always* be careful to specifically explain that the “reaping” might come after we’re dead.
Here’s a question, do you think as many people would give through the nose if they realized their “reward” would only be given to them after their dead? I wonder…
March 21st, 2007 at 1:48 pm
They got it here, RP.
March 21st, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Henri, you got me to thinking (darn you!!!)
I wonder what Adam would say to the “law of sewing and reaping”?
Genesis 3:17-19 KJV
(17) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(18) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
As hard as Adam must have worked to clear and till the soil, to plant a crop, only to yield thorns and thistles, to see pests, birds and animals strip it bare … where was Adam’s reaping for all that he had sewn? In sorrow He did eat …
Adam, Where Are You
by Don Francisco
Unashamed and naked in a garden that has never seen the rain,
Rulers of a kingdom, full of joy — never marred by any pain,
The morning all around them seems to celebrate the life they’ve just begun;
And in the majesty of innocence the king and queen come walking in the sun
But the master of deception now begins with his discection of the Word
And with all of his craft and subtly the serpent twists the simple truths they’ve heard,
While hanging in the balance is a world that has been placed at their command
And all their unborn children die as both of them bow down to Satan’s hand.
And just before the ev’ning in the cool of the day, They hear the voice of God as He is walking
And they can’t abide His presence, so they try to hide away;
But still they hear the sound as He is calling:
“Adam, Adam, where are you?
Adam, Adam, where are you?
Adam, Adam, where are you?”
In the stifling heat of summer now the gard’ner and his wife are in the field
And it seems that thorns and thistles are the only crop his stuggles ever yield
He eats his meals in sorrow ’til he sinks in to the dust whence he came
But all down through the ages he can hear his Maker calling out his name.
“Adam, Adam, where are you?
Adam, Adam, where are you?”
And though the curse has long be broken
Adams’ sons are still the prisners of their fears
Rushing helter skelter to destrution with their fingers in their ears
While the Fathers voice is calling with an urgency I’ve never heard before
“Won’t you come in from the darkness now before it’s time to finally close the door!”
“Adam, Adam, where are you?
Adam, Adam, where are you?
Adam, Adam, I love you!”
March 21st, 2007 at 4:31 pm
This is the same junk they preach about the “laws” of faith. Pastor Jude preached a message at the city church about the “laws” of faith. Apparently he thinks the laws work the same for Christians as anyone else. I guess it doesn’t matter what they put their faith in, as long as they have faith in something. Their God is bound by laws that he has to follow regardless of his will. I don’t think God follows their man made (money making) laws.
The law of sowing and reaping = The sheep sow, the “shepherds” reap the green harvest by tickling itching ears.
March 22nd, 2007 at 4:17 am
hahaha… Nice.
Do you ask the pastor about Job? Job was a good Christian, and then God let Satan give him shingles.
March 22nd, 2007 at 6:01 am
My skin crawls any time a Christian starts talking about “Laws” in the Bible. It is clear that they have forgotten the fundamental message of the Gospel: That we who are in Christ are no longer under the Law, but under Grace.
If the only way for me to please God in my finances is to obey the Law, then what other parts of my life must also come back under the Law to please Him? Is there anything left to Grace?
The author here stresses several times to understand the context of giving in these passages, and I agree we should do this wholeheartedly. So let’s do that now, with Jack Louman’s favorite giving verse.
Did anyone find it? It’s really easy to overlook it unless you want to yoink it out of there, out of context, to talk about money. Wait a darned minute! When did this passage become about giving money to the church? The context is about loving your enemies, not judging others, and forgiving those who offend you. When Jesus says “Give, and it will be given back to you.” He is not talking about money, He is talking about showing love, grace and forgiveness!
Huh, that wasn’t so hard!
March 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 am
Reformed Pope said: I’m not sure what textbook this comes from so if anyone recognizes it I’d love to know.
RP: Thanks for posting this document on the blog! When I first read it, I thought it might have come from Hinduism, Mormonism or Christian Science, but I’m not really sure. We really need to find out its exact source so that we can send it to all of the CBC staff and show how they are allowing Frank to promote one small theme of biblical theology and neglect all of the rest, esp. grace (per FICM)!
Since RP received this from a CBC staff member, does anyone have any creative ideas that RP might use to find out its source, esp. if the pastor he’s been corresponding with refuses to give it to him or just doesn’t know it? To me, there must be other CBC staffers who probably have seen this document; maybe we can ask them. How about the former staffers Ken R, Larry A, and Larry T: do any of you know where it comes from? Maybe we could ask Lanny Hubbard through a previous blog….Lanny, are you there?
March 22nd, 2007 at 9:01 am
Daniel said: The law of sowing and reaping = The sheep sow, the “shepherds” reap the green harvest by tickling itching ears.
Daniel: Fabulous!
I like how you have the words shepherds in quotes! Instead of shepherds, and I’m speaking broadly about all prosperity preachers, maybe we should call them Religious Profiteers or Opportunists. I read an interesting defintion of capitalism recently: Capitalism is the ability to turn any person, place or thing into a marketable commodity. Isn’t this what Frank, etc. have done with God’s Word?
“tickling itching ears” I understand to mean playing on their lower nature - selfishness, materialism and greed.
March 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 am
catalyst said: Do you ask the pastor about Job? Job was a good Christian, and then God let Satan give him shingles.
catalyst: This is an excellent point as far as it goes. It does show a loophole (or, exception) to the “law” of sowing and reaping as recorded in Dt. 27-28. In these chapters of Dt. the sowing would be the perfect obedience to the Law of Moses, and the reaping would be all of the divine blessings listed there.
At the very end of the Book of Job, however, God made Job prosperous again and “gave him twice as much as he had before.” The text says that, “The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the first. He had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 yoke of oxen and 1,000 donkeys, 7 sons and 3 beautiful daughters and “he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation” (Job 42:10-16, selected).
A valid question to ask about this double blessing at the end of his trial is whether the story gets a bit artificial at this point. E.g., God restores to Job precisely twice as much as he had before he suffered his trial of loss. Comparing Job 1:2-3 with Job 42:12-13 shows us this: 7,000 sheep in the beginning/14,000 sheep in the end; 3,000 camels in the beginning, 6,000 camels in the end, etc. (cf. Dt. 28:11 which promised blessing of livestock for obedience to the Law.)
Possibly adding to the story’s artificiality, Job was restored the exact number of children with the same number of boys (7) and girls (3) that he had when the story began! (One of the blessings for obedience in Dt. 28:11 was many children.) This literary construction has caused some commentators to think that maybe a different editor ended the book, i.e., to turn a story that was intended originally to correct the mechanistic sowing and reaping theology of Dt. 27-28 into one that was, after all is said and done, actually supportive of it.
March 24th, 2007 at 8:18 am
I wonder what all those who so trust in this “faith law” will believe when hard times befall this economy. Maybe, “crap, I should have sowed more.”
I wonder why this “faith law” is so prevelant in the USA and not so much in third world countries where it could really be used if it was true. Maybe these preachers wouldn’t get “their harvest so fast”.
March 24th, 2007 at 8:26 am
I guess, really, the fact of the matter is. We can’t stop these preachers unless we first stop people from having itching ears in the first place.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
In 2 Cor. 8:9 it says that Jesus became poor that we may become rich. I wonder if Frank would be willing to apply the same principle, become poor that we might become rich.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Who needs to refute it? This interpretation deconstructs itself.
Their interpretation is an absolutization of a particular reading of biblical narrative and thus it is an idolatrous interpretation. I have no absolute but God.
There is never immediacy… only interpretation.
Probably only in a textbook at ORU or at some random “School of the Holy Spirit.” I know of no scholars or theologians that currently embrace this teaching.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:59 am