The Debate…part 2
Posted on March 22nd, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the The Debate categoryPicking up where we left off… more sowing and more reaping:
4. In spiritual things there is a correspondence between what is sown and what is reaped.
(a) Sowing to the flesh produces its own natural harvest-corruption. The mere animal life, the life of worldly interests, the life of the lower self, is itself a life of corruptible things. Its soil and nourishment are earthly and cannot outlast death. When the grave opens all is lost. Even before death thieves steal, and moth and rust eat into the treasures. The soul itself, too, is corrupted by such a life. Its faculties are dissipated and decay away. It descends to the evil state of moral rottenness and death.
(b)Sowing to the Spirit produces its own harvest of eternal life. Spiritual things are eternal things. Treasures in heaven are beyond destroying influences. In proportion as the spiritual within us is cultivated we have what will outlast death and what no grave will ever claim. Already we have an eternal life in living in the things that are spiritual and therefore eternal. Money goes, but faith remains; the pleasures of the senses pall upon us, but the peace of God never fails; self-seeking leads to dissatisfaction, the love of God sustains us with undying interests.
Again the problem is this: without acknowledging the cross you simply have what the Buddhists and Hindus call "Karma". Do good receive good, do bad receive bad. Thank God there is more to life than "Karma".
Yes, Luke 6:38 (which you quote later) says "Give and it will be given to you", but this context gives only ONE SIDE to divine and human reality… and it isn't talking about finances.
I think Paul understood that when he said, "7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ" (Philippians 3:7). Does this sound like someone saying "sow money to reap money"? NO, he considered it all loss.
He goes on to say ‘live according to the pattern we gave you. (v17)" "…many live as enemies of the cross of Christ." (v18) "…Their mind is on earthly things." (v19). What is more earthly than money?
Scriptural Examples of sowing and reaping: the harvesting of grain. The term is used figuratively for the final judgment (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; Rev. 14:15-16), evangelism (Matt. 9:37-38; Luke 10:2; John 4:35-36; Rom. 1:13), and recompense for good (Hos. 10:12; 2 Cor. 9:6; Gal. 6:7-8) or evil (Job 4:8; Prov. 22:8; Hos. 8:7; 10:13; Gal. 6:7-8)
To me, all these scriptures in the list above help to show why Gen 8:22 cannot be applied as Frank uses it. Sowing/Reaping is used in so many different metaphors; you simply cannot say it always applies to giving and receiving financially or any other single way for that matter.
III. APPLICATION OF THIS PRINCIPLE
5. As this law applies to all of life, it must also apply to every area specifically, this includes finances. If you plant wheat seed in the ground, you expect an abundance of wheat to be harvested. I know of no farmer that would plant and not expect a return. You invest in a 401k with the complete expectation of seeing a return. You give of your time at a job expecting a paycheck and hopefully a promotion. PLEASE remember that the context of 2 Cor. 9:6 is giving of MONEY, "Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously." Paul is making it very clear that there should be an expectation to receive directly proportionate to what you give. I don't think you can translate this any other way. This is a great scripture to validate the point that if you give of your money sparingly, you will reap a minimal harvest!
Paul's focus is clearly on the "sowing" and not the "reaping" as you and Frank would suggest. Does God bless those who give? Yes, but we can't and shouldn't say how or when or what.
Is every rich drug dealer or porn star wealthy because they have obeyed this principle? Of course not. Did Jesus say that the widow who gave her last two mites was now going to become rich? Of course not. In my opinion, the problem is that you take the "sometimes" and turn it into an "always" in order to inspire the investors to invest. Everyone likes a guaranteed investment, but as I read the Gospels, I do not find that becoming rich is what following Jesus is all about. The fact is that the majority of texts concerning wealth in the New Testament are warnings about the dangers of having riches - not ways to get more of it by sowing and reaping financial seeds.
I believe we should give because God has blessed you with the only thing you really need, salvation. At the end of 2 Cor. 9, Paul states:
14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!
That gift, of course, is salvation. I believe that should be at the heart of every sermon preached, whether the message is about money or anything else. Verse 15 should help us keep a proper perspective toward money and possessions.
6. Here is another scripture that pertains to reaping and sowing in the financial arena, 1 Cor. 9:10-12, "Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?. If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?" Again context is important. There is both a spiritual and natural context here, and also a financial one as it pertains to material harvest. There is an emphasis here of a hope of receiving something from the sowing of the same kind. You should plow in "hope of sharing" in the harvest… including a material harvest as stated.
This contradicts your previous statements of "what you sow you reap" (need a house, sow a house payment etc.). If the Law of Devine Retribution is always true, how could Paul and the rest of the apostles sow spiritual seed among the Corinthians, and then expect a material harvest?
According to what you said previously, they would need to sow material seed to reap material harvest and it would not be possible any other way.
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March 22nd, 2007 at 9:11 am
Again, he argues about using context and fails to do so adequately. 1 Corinthians 9 is NOT about receiving a financial blessing by giving finances. It is part of Paul’s BOAST that he declines to receive any payment at all for preaching the Gospel, he is merely using a natural example to show that it would seem natural for him to do so, but he prides in doing the opposite! If anything this goes to show that the better way is not a clergy paid by tithes and offerings, but it is being willing to share the Gospel freely and having your income come from your own labor!
What does Paul expect in return for his “sowing”?
I don’t think the “prize” Paul was referring to was money or financial blessings. He eschewed financial wealth in hopes of gaining the glory of Salvation.
Sorry, Pastor, but you get an “F” in Hermeneutics for missing the obvious Contextual Method for interpretation here.
March 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 am
I think Jesus spoke of these teachers long ago. I feel pity for the poor souls who believe the garbage taught from the the pulpits of these blind preachers.
March 22nd, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Maybe all of Paul’s words don’t apply one-for-one to the things being discussed in this blog string, but if not, at least the majority is pretty scary:
I wonder if the destruction he refers to is the result of a false use of their authority, per:
In other words, if I destroy others’ faith, by my error, then I may have the reward I counted on destroyed…???
My sense of this passage is that he is not referring to “total destruction,” such as eternity in hell, but more than likely a destruction of the works they had anticipated would result in great reward. Maybe this is what will cause the tears Jesus says He will one day wipe away.
Kinda makes me nervous when I think about all the false stuff I’ve taught in the past, and called it “of God.” Sometimes it makes you wonder if Jesus should have added to his “cut off your hand…cut off your foot…” a reference to the tongue…
March 23rd, 2007 at 8:21 am
It is so easy to see the distorted use of selected scriptures to herd gullible people into accepting blindly every thing a “respected ?” preacher can throw at them. I do agree that giving to the poor and for the furtherance of the gospel to a lost world is a wonderful biblical princpile and have done so generously for many years. I have never, however, accepted the false teachings that you must give unconditionally ten persent plus whatever else they try to milk you for, just because the say you have to ,”or else”.
I don’t wonder why one of the greatest Preachers of our time, Billy Graham, never spent endless time during his crusades demanding money. He just preached the New Testament Gospel of repentance and salvation. You can’t argue with that success.
Then comes the mega-churches and the want’a be’s. If anyone wants to see the money grubbing mega- churches at their absuolte worst, tune in to ABC”s 20/20 program Friday night, 03/23/07. It’s a wakeup call. Nausea is almost garunteed.
Now, why does the image of that Half Eggshell upon Rocky Butte, that I faithfully gave a few thousands of dollars to help build, come into mind?
It isn’t bitterness. It is heartache over what it has become. Fortunately,I left the lemming pack before it reached the cliff edge. ( Oh yes, I did get my name put on a plaque at the end of one of the rows. I wish I could get it off.)
My parting shot will be in question form. “Does the management of CBC have the want’a be syndrome of the likeness of that bunch on TBN? Why not tune in and see if there are any shadows or likenesses of that “great organization?
March 23rd, 2007 at 9:16 am
Good job, JP. I am amazed that you lasted 30 emails. Perhaps you gave the pastor some things to think about. Unfortunately, the pastors are usually so busy running the business that they rarely have time for prayer or Bible reading.
In my attempts to explain to friends who have asked about our decision to leave CBC, I have been confronted with the mindset (view of reality) that is common to their culture. When pointing out that their interpretation of Scripture may be faulty or skewed, they fall back on the ideas of submission and support.
I once heard a Christian apologist tell how he was able to bring people in other religions (like Mormons, JW) to Christ. Even though he knew how their teachings did not follow the Bible, he did not debate those things. He said his focus was not for them to see how their beliefs were unbiblical; his focus was for them to see that they were lost. He did not attempt to move them from one belief system to another. He brought them to realize the lost condition of their souls, and then introduced them to the gospel.
That principle has stayed with me over the years, and I try really hard to remember it — not just with ALL those JW’s I talk to (joking), but with those in other locked mindsets (CBC). I try to remember that Jesus did this. For the most part, He did not go nose to nose with the Pharisees. No. He taught the Kingdom from His own perspective with demonstration — and allowed people to choose.
So when I talk to CBCers now about the church, I try to start by emphasizing the awesomeness of God, the beauty of Jesus, the extravagance of the cross, or some other aspect of Scripture that puts our faith into focus. THEN when we compare that other mindset to the brilliance of the gospel, well it rightly looks like “filthy rags” and is easily discarded. That’s why Paul said, “I consider it all rubbish that I may gain Christ.”
Even the focus of the II Cor. passage about the sacrificial financial gift is about them reaping the fruits of righteousness — because they laid down their lives in a financial way for other believers. They were not guilted into it, nor bribed into it with expectations of financial prosperity. It was the natural response of a heart touched by the generosity of the gospel. And they will “reap” the benefits: fruits of righteousness. (How much $$ is that?)
I so agree with you that the sowing and reaping principle of the Kingdom is much, much different than the natural world. Just a few examples:
“Those that sow in tears shall reap in joy…” (can’t remember the passage)
Isaiah 61: “beauty for ashes, gladness for mourning…”
Matt 5: “Blessed are those who…”
That is the beauty of the gospel, the message of grace. I hope the pastor will be touched by how you were able to convey the magnificence of our God, and hopefully see how the Lord calls us to a different kind of exchange.
grace
March 23rd, 2007 at 11:59 am
Thanks for your comment Anna. I am quite certain that I did not give him anything to think about, he really wasn’t open to “hear” anything I said. In fact the only reason I got this much of a response from him was because I pushed so hard and wouldn’t let it go.
In the end, it all helped me grow and that in itself is worth it.
March 23rd, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Who’s Erik?
March 23rd, 2007 at 2:41 pm
I don’t know.
March 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 pm
I think Sam’s asking about Erik Knox, but I could be wrong?
March 23rd, 2007 at 3:04 pm
You mean the IMAGINARY and FICTIONAL name I used in my Biblical Parody?
March 23rd, 2007 at 5:47 pm
I know nothing …