There was one main paragraph that stood out to me while reading SPES donation letter:
God has already opened some remarkable doors, including providing an awesome facility for our services and office needs. In spire of this miraculous provision of God, the vision to plant a church in New York City Still has enormous financial needs. For example, children's ministry, audio/visual equipment, a sound system, computers, copiers, office furniture, facility overhead, and relocation cost.
Truthfully, we must raise over $60,000 before we can begin our public services.
$60,000 before they can begin public services? Whatever happened to a few people meeting in an empty building with nothing but their Bibles and a word from God saying "Go start a church"? When did the church plant model change? $60,000? I know Manhattan is expensive but maybe you should cut down on costs a little?
Also, lets not forget that "Eternity" is a business. They charge churches to come out and learn how to put it on. They profit from it. It's not a charity. So…when the letter starts out by saying:
I am writing in regards to the most exciting adventures of our lives, the Eternity Production will be moving its headquarters this summer, from Portland, Oregon, to New York City!
Once you skip pass the overdramatic beginning (most exciting adventure of our lives? I mean I'm excited about this, but not THAT excited), you see that he starts by talking about moving the Eternity Production…moving his business…to New York…and he wants others to pay for it? Is there something wrong with our Christian culture that would help support a play ripped off by someone claiming to be a Senior Pastor? Or is the flaw with SPES thinking that people will actually support this move? I don't know. It seems like if you tell people "Now is the time God is calling us to ____________" people will support you (and I will get ripped for being an A-hole for complaining about it.)
Attention Senior Pastor Ed Schefter and all others involved with the Eternity Business "plant", if God is calling you to go just go. Don't worry about the copier (the have Kinko's in NYC), don't worry about a sound system (30 people can sit close enough to hear you speak) and don't worry about office furniture (I've got some folding chairs I would like to donate), JUST GO.
I suppose the other side to this is that they are just trying to be organized and dreaming big, nothing wrong with that. It just seems like by asking for all this support they show a lack of faith…no, not lack of faith…maybe its greed…I don't know what exactly it is…maybe I think this because from their website I read:
"As you get off the subway at the corner of 23rd street. you will see the New York City Church flag waving in the breeze. As you walk down the block into the entrance, you are greeted by friendly warm people THERE TO HELP YOU FIND THE COFFEE BAR…"
That's right, the coffee bar. I'm sorry, I just don't see the picture of a pastor just wanting to follow God's call when his church starts up with a coffee bar. If he needs $60,000 to move his business that now includes a coffee bar count me out.
Unless, of course, by "Coffee Bar" he means:
"Heather, throw another pot on".
You know RP, they really should relocate the coffee bar to the altar. That would motivate more people to respond to an altar call.
“Excuse me sir, would you care for something from the bar while you wait for prayer and the laying on of hands?”
“Hey you! Now that you’ve received Christ as Savior, what are you going to do next?!?”
“I’m gonna have a double shot non-fat vanilla latte!”
Think of the possibilities!
Well written.
You’re right…when did the church plant model change? This whole corporate image of coffee bars in the lobby and high-end sound equipment is really a lot of show, and a cheap (er, expensive) way to attract people to your doors. I thought the real attraction was supposed to be Christ.
Another thing…
I’m getting a little tired of hearing about these CBC big-shots who think they can save the world with their showy equipment and pretty churches in major cities. Washington D.C., NYC…?? Uggh, the arrogance! I can see right through it. Why can’t everyone else? Because many church-goers today only go to church for their lobby latte, their well-dressed friends (all with similar CBC hairstyles), and the hyped-up prophetic sermon that rarely ever references the Bible. It’s about the social life and the entertainment. They aren’t comfortable without their big-screen monitors and their perfect-sounding worship music. They are at church for entertainment. Sorry, but it’s true.
I remember when Imago Dei started. It was a few college kids looking for something different, and they met in a basement in a SE church for a long time before their church took off. Even still, they are a simple church with a simple message. And people LOVE it for that very reason.
It really isn’t about the lattes and the 60K equipment, Ed. And, you don’t have to look like CBC or any of their simulcast plants to achieve success…maybe you feel like you have to do this to win Frank’s approval, but there are other ways to plant churches. I suggest following the models set forth in the New Testament.
Imago Dei is the anti-CBC!
By the way, in comparison how much do you think Paul spent when he started all those churches in Asia? Maybe a quick trip through Acts might help him pare down the budget to what is ACTUALLY needed to start a CHURCH and not some CBC inspired Psuedo-Para-Church-Business.
Just fleecing the kingdom.
Hmmm … could it be that CBC is sending this guy off to NYCC because he’s been obsessing about it for so long they’re tired of it – knowing all the while NYC will and Broadway will teach him what the CBC leadership and his peers have known all along?
You who are parents know what I’m talking about, sometimes you have to give in to a strong-willed kid – let them do what they insist on doing – so they learn their lesson about mommy/daddy knows best …
Might be just what the Dr. ordered for the guy …
I would love it, if this was true.
Wow, funny. However, I do wonder if the financier who is giving him the the bottom of the JP Morgan building is aware of the questionable ethics of the man he is dealing with?
He does now.
[Comment ID #25055 Will Be Quoted Here]
I believe that is what happened with W.L. and the Phoenix plant and look what happened there. (Past tense, since there is no longer a Phoenix plant)
Heaven’s Gates Hell’s Flames ( Authentic )
Inspired by Eternity (the Knock off version)
It was suppose to be …
A picture of Eternity Cologne
Heaven’s gates hells flames etc etc
A picture of the imitation scented oils you can purchase for a fraction of the cost and they smell just like Eternity cologne but they are OBVIOUSLY are not the same. Sold at most 7-11′s and local gas stations just in case….
Inspired by eternity etc etc
If p.e.s stands for pastor ed sch*fter, I can not help but wonder: is he also a teacher?
What
the
E?
60,000?
That’s almost enough money to put me through college.
What the Ed?
RP said: Whatever happened to a few people meeting in an empty building with nothing but their Bibles and a word from God saying “Go start a church”? When did the church plant model change?
RP: This NYCC series is truly one of your best! Great job!
….To play on your words: And what happened to a few people meeting in a HOME or an APARTMENT with nothing but their Bibles and a word from God saying, ‘Go start a church’?! When did the NT church plant model change?
Jesus asks his disciples: “When I SENT YOU without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” ‘Nothing,’ they answered.” (Luke 22:35)
—-
red seven said: I believe that is what happened with W.L. and the Phoenix plant and look what happened there.
red seven: Will Lake was a graduate at PBC while I was teaching there. He went to Eugene, Oregon with Frank Damazio and was one of his key staff people. I heard that his church went belly up, but do you know the story? If you do, I’d be interested in it. Was Randy Alward a part of that plant, too? I have great respect for both of these guys….
I think the point that everyone’s missing here is that Ed needs to raise money. If his rent is taken care of, doesn’t this mean that CBC’s not financially sponsoring him?
Pastor Ed Shefter’s Fund-Raising Letter:
Money over Prayer:
Thank you for the links from Lurker to the fund-raising letter by Ed Shefter. I could hardly believe what I was reading. Ed asks for prayer, but makes it very clear that they “especially need financial support” at this time. The message is clear: your money is more important to us than your prayers!
Pastor Ed Shefter: Simply Following Pastor Dick Iverson’s Example:
I’ve mentioned this before on the blog, but it fits here so well, too: Dick Iverson, Kevin Conner, Frank Damazio, etc. taught for many years, both at BT and PBC, that the local church was supposed to be financially “self-supporting.” (I can provide the references later, if necessary.)
But, when Pastor Iverson could not raise enough money from his own congregation at Bible Temple to build the domes on Rocky Butte, (Ira Washburn, a now deceased BT trustee, told me that Dick usually collected only about half of whatever he was trying to raise), he wrote a fund-raising letter to other churches and ministries in hopes of getting the money. In the letter, he wrote something like, “Since we have sown in your vineyard over the years, we would really appreciate it if you would sow in our vineyard at this time…”
And, since he could not raise enough money to build the domes from other churches either, he unilaterally turned to the bank, and thus put BT/CBC into deep, deep debt. CBC carried so much debt that a CBC member told me that Frank Damazio had the boldness to say from the pulpit one Sunday morning that he did not know how much debt CBC really had when he took over the church! Now, honestly, what kind of a businessman would take over a company without knowing its actual debt? (One possible answer is a very anxious one.) And, furthermore, what kind of a pastor would give his church to another pastor without first telling him the same? (One possible answer is a very desperate one.)
So, Dick Iverson’s fund-raising letter to outside churches and ministries broke with BT tradition and teaching and opened the barn door for future BT/CBC leaders to go to other sources outside of their local church in order to raise monies for their ministries. After all, that is what Dick and Frank have always taught: Follow the leader!
I think Eddie went by the name “Shifty Shefter” when he worked for the carpet warehouse store way back when. Watch out for this one.
[Comment ID #25178 Will Be Quoted Here]
Then “carpet bagger” ought to be right up his alley.
“And what happened to a few people meeting in a HOME or an APARTMENT with nothing but their Bibles and a word from God saying, ‘Go start a church’?! When did the NT church plant model change?”
PREACH! I think in these last days the church model has gotten so messed up it would be better to meet in a small place with a few saved people.
The modeling has been downright copying. Every church that has come out of the CBC has been the same. I have listened to Judah online and in person so I did research on his church and the CBC churches. I listened to audio from these churches. These people all have the same sort of style preaching and teaching, some of them even speech and outward appearance! (Silly ass fo-hawks LOL! I hae only seen TWO guys look good with that hairstyle and guess what? Neither were Judah.)
Same for the churches that “modeled” themselves” after Toronto. My church did that and so did my friends church and it didn’t go over too well and I think God allowed for it not to go over well to teach us something.
[Comment ID #25322 Will Be Quoted Here]
Racists usually are really bothered if someone points out that they are racist.
I think that it is important to understand that the term “racist”, while having one, perhaps generally accepted meaning, also has several different connotations and can mean many different things to different people.
To a lot of people, the emphasis on the differences in races is a racist thing because it perpetuates a stereotype. But I think this is a very hard concept to understand and even harder to accept. I personally believe we all hold stereotypes about other races and therefore we are all racist to some extent. Racism is much more than behavior, it is a mindset.
I think that Schneidt1 (sorry I am presuming to know more about you than I really do — it is just how it appears to me based on your previous posts), doesn’t hold harsh or negative thoughts against other races and would never wish to harm anyone based on that. I think that the Schneidt1 and Jennifer perhaps hold very different views of what the term “racist” means (apart from the generally accepted definition of “hatred or intolerance of another race or other races”. This is just a thought — an idea– I am not saying that this is the way it is with Jennifer and Schneidt1 because I couldn’t possibly know all of their minds. Just something to consider.
[Comment ID #25354 Will Be Quoted Here]
“For what it is worth, just because I am white and argue with a fellow blogger that is black and don’t see eye to eye, doesn’t make me a racist like people have assumed.”
You’re right.
It’s those countless other things.
[Comment ID #25362 Will Be Quoted Here]
No, you are going into the same trashcan as “Cowboy”.
You two are birds of a feather.
[Comment ID #25368 Will Be Quoted Here]
Let me explain this for you.
Once upon a time (I know this format is familiar and comfortable for you) there was a poster here whose name was “Cowboy”.
Well, he was an idiot, much like you are.
His positions were indefensible, but he just LOVED getting attention, much like a 3-year old gets attention by irritating adults.
So, just like you, I treated Cowboy like an annoying three-year old.
I ignored him.
Enjoy oblivion, you will not be getting a response from me any more, because frankly, you are not worth my time.
(PLONK!)
David Mackin said: “But, when Pastor Iverson could not raise enough money from his own congregation at Bible Temple to build the domes on Rocky Butte, (Ira Washburn, a now deceased BT trustee, told me that Dick usually collected only about half of whatever he was trying to raise), he wrote a fund-raising letter to other churches and ministries in hopes of getting the money. In the letter, he wrote something like, ‘Since we have sown in your vineyard over the years, we would really appreciate it if you would sow in our vineyard at this time…’
And, since he could not raise enough money to build the domes from other churches either, he unilaterally turned to the bank, and thus put BT/CBC into deep, deep debt…So, Dick Iverson’s fund-raising letter to outside churches and ministries broke with BT tradition and teaching and opened the barn door for future BT/CBC leaders to go to other sources outside of their local church in order to raise monies for their ministries.”
—-Wow, I had never knew any of that. Comes as quite a surprise. What a contrast between that and the time I was in that famous BT service on 76th, when guestspeaker Pastor John Jimenez from New York told everyone who felt they had been planted by God in BT, and who were committed to it to stand up. Of course, we all stood up. He then said he had a Word from the Lord for us. I remember he dramatically pointed his finger at everyone and said that the Lord had just told him that each person standing had to pony up $3000 for the new building that God wanted BT to build! Man, what a shock that was. IIRC, the Lord was going to miraculously “provide” without any reliance on banks. Remember that one Dave?
joebib
What was that –some kind of manipulation thing?
I just read on a a MLM blog how one of the top people in their company
basically hired a prophet and they would have meetings and she would tell
everyone in the room -You are supposed to be in leadership position in this
company -a word ect. the blasphemy is getting thick out there —
now to see it was going on all the time —interesting bit of history
and the truth shall set us free!