The Generosity Factor (again)
Posted on April 19th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Tithe, Sermons categoryPastor Rick Snow of Atlanta City Church spoke last week at CBC. The title of his sermon was The Generosity Factor, which struck me as odd, because I instantly recalled listening to a sermon from CBC last year by Rick Snow also called The Generosity Factor…in fact I even blogged about it.
*Quick side note, did anyone else at CBC catch this? I beginning to feel like Kathy Griffin in the Seinfeld episode The Cartoon. I've really got to get a life*
So, for the second time, here is "The Generosity Factor":
:36 - "Generosity was laid on his heart". Tells a story of a pastor who took a job at a Christian School that was completely broke and this pastor listened to Rick's series on Giving and then someone gave them 2 million dollars.
7:12 - "Tell Me what you think about money and I'll tell you what you think about God"
9:15 - "Have a need, Sow a seed" - or as Frank would have you believe "Have a greed, Sow a seed"
10:01 - Mentions that for the first time in many years this tax season he is "Getting a substantial amount back from the IRS" and do you want to know why…because he "sowed almost $27,000 into his church". Then Rick mentions that he "is in the top 5% of givers in his church." - Ok Rick, I hate to tell you this, but getting tax money back does not qualify as a "blessing from God"…your tithe is tax deductible…that's a gift from the IRS, not God…and there are formula's for calculating how it all works…not really a miracle is it?
Also, why do you know that you are in the top 5% of givers in your church and why does that matter?
12:22 - His goal is to "give a reverse tithe" (I'm not making this up). Giving 90% of his income and living on 10%, Rick Warren already does this.
15:07 - Tells us that his church "sowed $100,000 to a "Black" Church in Portland, OR & God gave back not in the form of dollars but instead the reaped in square footage" (they now own a 100,000sf building). - Whoops, don't let Pastor Frank hear that…Frank doesn't believe that is possible:
"The special law of sowing and reaping is that the product of the harvest will be the same in kind as the seed sown. Tares will never produce wheat, nor wheat tares. But each seed reproduces its own kind."
Sorry, Rick maybe you sowed a house somewhere and that is how you received the bigger building.
16:35 - "God is in the business…" I didn't catch the rest of this statement, but I don't think God is in any business…he's God.
16:50 - Tells a story about a guy who was in debt with over $100,000 on 2 credit cards that came to him for help. With Rick's advise, the guy pays it off in 2 years. The guy didn't receive any raises at work or anything. So how did he pay it off? Rick says it's because "once God saw that this man was serious…it's amazing how quickly the blessings come". - OR…once this guy got on a budget (with Rick's help) its amazing how much money he actually had.
Let's be honest, average Joe doesn't have the ability to run up $120,000 on 2 credit cards, clearly this guy makes plenty of money; he just needed someone like Rick to slap some sense into him. And there is your blessing…God didn't pay off the credit in 2 years, this guy did.
19:00 - Tells everyone that if they don't listen to his sermon (which is led by the Spirit) over and over then none of this will work.
20:02 - Quotes Scripture "My God will supply all your needs..." but then says "Every promise has a premise" (Marc, are you getting all these quips. They're gems). "Every promise has a premise" so that scripture "doesn't apply to everyone". Anyone want to guess what that premise is?
33:30 - Rick says something to the effect of "I'm not watching where you give your money…that's not my job…God forbid I would have to do that". Sure, but you know that you are in the top 5% of givers in your church. Stop lying to us Rick.
33:50 - Quote of the night. "I tithe for protection from the curse that is in the earth out there". Let's read that again
"I TITHE FOR PROTECTION FROM THE CURSE THAT IS IN THE EARTH OUT THERE".
My friend Jenny wants to know which scripture that comes from…no seriously, which scripture?
33:59 - "I tithe for Protection but give offerings for Progression". Frank, write that down.
Ok, you see where this is going. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Pastor Rick had a lot of GREAT things to say about getting your finances under control and I'm sure he makes a great financial advisor (just talk to the guy who paid of $120,000 in debt in 2 years). The problem for me is when you tie Financial Trouble with Giving Money to the Church. It sounds good, but just isn't Biblical.
People, stop and think about all this for a minute. Do the math. Listen to everything you've heard from CBC on giving and receiving, run it through the Bible, and see if it adds up. It doesn't. If you have financial troubles today, giving money to the church isn't going to solve them. Getting on a budget, however, will. Tithing isn't a miracle cure for debt, in fact, ask around and you'll find people who tithed regularly and only dug themselves deeper into debt. I'm one of those people.
When my wife and I first got married 7 years ago, we gave 10% of our income every week to CBC. By the end of the month we were living on credit cards. Why? Because we didn't know how to handle our money. Here we are years later, we don't give a full 10% to the church anymore (although I wish we could) and now we have no credit card debt. Imagine that.
I'd like to offer this challenge: I bet that if you took 2 people (or 100 for that matter) and had half of them give 10% of their income to their church, but after that not look at their money at all, and take the other half and have them not give a dime to the church but follow a strict budget you'd see the truth to how much blessing*is involved in tithe. The blessing is in the budget, everyone. The blessing is in the budget.
*by blessing I mean in a CBC sort of way…financially that is. I believe that there is a great "general blessing" for those who are generous, I just won't put a dollar figure on it.
April 19th, 2007 at 8:58 am
The tithing is for protection.
Wow! Who knew?
April 19th, 2007 at 9:52 am
If that was true then wouldn’t Christian teens not have to worry about getting pregnant?
“Mom, I’m pregnant!”
“Honey, I told you to tithe before you went out on your date!”
(Sorry, it’s lowbrow, but I couldn’t resist.)
April 19th, 2007 at 9:58 am
At CBC, tithing is the new abstinence.
April 19th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
JP,
My friend told me that The Generosity Factor was shared at the men’s breakfast on Sat. morning, on Sunday morning obviously and also Sun. night at the Super Sunday. The facts, just the facts.
April 19th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I attended the City Church for a few years and one question I have is…do any of these men preaching this stuff read what Jesus taught? Mathew 6:1-4 says that we are not to do our giving before men and in fact we are to do them secretly. When some person starts trumpeting about how much they give it’s our first indication that they are not giving Biblically…so everything they say after that, well to me is just nonsense. I think more people would know this if they in fact followed what Jesus taught and not some well spoken, charismatic “preacher”. I started to study what Jesus taught on these things and I’ll tell you what…it wasn’t to tithe…but give and give generously and secretly. To bad now I can’t tell people how much I give and how much God gives me back
I think Jesus knows our nature and our propensity to greed and manipulation…like I said I started to study the Bible a little more, and so I left the City Church.
April 19th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Back when they were still Bible Temple, I attended this “special” service they held and while they were taking tithes, Frank would go to a section of people and say “God is telling me that someone right here is supposed to give a thousand dollars, a thousand dollars” and then somebody would raise their hand and he would acknowledge them like it was some kind of auction or something and then move to a another section and do the same thing. That is outright dishonesty and greed. This man knows exactly what he is doing, they all do and he will have to pay for it along with the other’s.
April 19th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
I also attended the City Church in Kirkland, and they did the same thing. The only difference is since Wendell is close to Microsoft, so he can call 100 people to give $1,000. I remember how badly I wanted to stand up and be part of the special club. I am thankful I had enough sense to know my mortgage would go unpaid if I did that.
Praise the Lord for the truth. Incidently, the truth is being twisted at these “prosperity” churches for ambition.
April 20th, 2007 at 6:38 am
Well no wonder SPES feels comfortable stretching the truth about the Eternity play when his senior pastor and mentor Frank has set the ethical standard so low.
Get some integrity people, get some integrity.
April 20th, 2007 at 7:16 am
Do you suppose God, in his infinite love and wisdom, allows people who want to be bilked and exalted, to be bilked and exalted, if only to teach them through the ‘prodigal son treatment’ that there is no lasting love, security, etc., from it all? That what felt good when Frank/Wendell, et al, recognized them from the lofty pulpit for their $1000.00 gift, lasted only for a week, where soon Frank/Wendell would be back for more?
In a sense what Frank/Wendell are doing is ANTI-Christ, in as much as Christ GIVES, whereas Frank/Wendell TAKE. It just blows my mind how people (and once me) could think there was something they could give that would ever pay for the love of God, the peace of Christ, the comfort of the Holy Spirit. No - the Father just gives, whereas men take.
I swear, religion is like a drug - an addiction to the approval and recognition of men - stroking pride and ego … religion can be such a cruel taskmaster.
There are a couple of scriptures that come to mind - starkly contrasting the differences between whoredom and the love of God …
Whoredom says: For a prostitute reduces you to a piece of bread. The adulteress hunts for your precious life. (Proverbs 6:26 HNV)
The Father says: Ho, everyone who thirsts, come you to the waters, and he who has no money; come you, buy, and eat; yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. (Isaiah 55:1 HNV)
April 20th, 2007 at 9:07 am
I can’t think of anywhere in scripture that indicates tithing will buy you protection. Can anyone provide a reference?
If you want things to go well for you, try this: Jeremiah 22:15&16, “Did not your father eat and drink and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy. Then it was well. Is not that what it means to know Me?” Declares the Lord.
In verse 21, it continues, “I spoke to you in your prosperity; But you said, “I will not listen!” This has been your practice from your youth, that you have not obeyed my voice.
An early Puritan minister I have read said, “Prosperity breeds three worms, idleness, pride and wantoness.” I guess they weren’t preaching the same gospel back then…:)
April 20th, 2007 at 9:19 am
Look up the word “hedge” - that seems to be real big with Frank and his ilk.
April 20th, 2007 at 9:22 am
The only Bible reference I know about “tithing protecting you from a curse” is the Curse of Malachi, of course Rick Snow can’t say:
“I tithe for protection from the curse of God”
He wouldn’t be as successful that way.
April 20th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
You would think this stuff about the tithe should make common sense, but it doesn’t to people. Tithing so you could get out of debt does not even make sense. I guess it’s just another way to pay our way to heaven.
April 20th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
WhatHEsaid said: I can’t think of anywhere in scripture that indicates tithing will buy you protection. Can anyone provide a reference?
RP said: Malachi…
WhatHEsaid and RP: Yes, I think the idea of being protected comes from Malachi 3:11-12, NIV, where the prophet says the following immediately after he commands the people to tithe: “I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit,” says the LORD Almighty. Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land,” says the LORD Almighty.” The Message puts it this way: “For my part, I will defend you against marauders, protect your wheat fields and vegetable gardens against plunderers.” And, then, there are all of the promises of material blessing for obeying the Law in Dt. 27-28. Maybe “hedge” comes more from the book of Job: “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?” (1:10)
April 21st, 2007 at 7:15 am
2 Peter 2:1-3
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
NIV
Read it! It is quite sobering. “…will bring the way into disrepute. In their greed…will exploit you with stories they have made up…”
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:27 am
“The only difference is since Wendell is close to Microsoft, so he can call 100 people to give $1,000. I remember how badly I wanted to stand up and be part of the special club.”
Sad thing with pastors and their minions like this is that if you don’t/can’t give they make you feel like scum….which is fine because I’m there to worship God not them but where in the bible did Jesus treat people like this?
“Do you suppose God, in his infinite love and wisdom, allows people who want to be bilked and exalted, to be bilked and exalted, if only to teach them through the ‘prodigal son treatment’ that there is no lasting love, security, etc., from it all?”
The Lord will not only teach you this the hard way by being bilked monetarily. He can allow you to be bamboozeled spiritually and emotionally to which is far worse. For me losing my money is far less damaging than being stolen from spiritually. Like in Pensacola when I heard of them being millions of dollars in debt. That was sad but then I was directed to this site of the horror stories people had to tell from that place. That place is worse then CBC, but Toronto tops them all. I mean cmon the so-called holy spiritual manifestations they had up there are borderline demonic. That’s how I found this blog. After my church followed the Toronto teaching of take the blessing back home with you and single handedly ruined people’s live and the church (Just like Pensacola did, there is proof that they copied their revival from Toronto who copied it from England who copied it from… you see where this is going lol.) I left the church for awhile. Then some time after that I did some research on all of this and came across this blog after looking up info about Judah Smith who was a speaker at Toronto while I was up there. There are HUNDREDS maybe thousands to stories similar to mine about the same thing happening to their church and the manifestations too. Some people even tested the manifestations/spirit in the middle of the outpourings whike at the church up there and proved it to themselves that it wasn’t of God. The spirit of God isn’t disruptive during a sermon or prayer like a demon and this happened often there. Anything that blocks prayer is NOT of God! Anything that causes hallucinations is not of God! Just google Toronto Blessing and you will see what I’m taking about.
April 23rd, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Wow. I googled Toronto Blessing and that is some crazy stuff. Fillings?? I believe that there is no limit to God’s power, but I don’t believe that story. I have attended Pentecostal churches through the years and I have seen some fairly strange stuff, but I have never heard of people receiving fillings. Not surprised to hear that JS was there.
April 23rd, 2007 at 11:43 pm
“Wow. I googled Toronto Blessing and that is some crazy stuff. Fillings?? I believe that there is no limit to God’s power, but I don’t believe that story. I have attended Pentecostal churches through the years and I have seen some fairly strange stuff, but I have never heard of people receiving fillings. Not surprised to hear that JS was there.”
HA, fillings were just the beginning. Try people laughing like hyenas, barking like dogs, rolling around on the floor, and other stuff I will not mention. All this was supported by the extreme twisting of the scriptures sometimes they didn’t even use scripture and the worship services were the most hyped-up mind manipulating services on the planet. They would last sometimes up to TWO HOURS!!! Now when we went up there us kids HAD NO CLUE ABOUT THIS REVIVAL, THIS CHURCH OR ANYTHING! We were totally off-guard! So we trusted our leadership and our parents trusted our leadership and they led us into something that they might have not known was a little screwy but it was definitely different from the norm. Some adult before bringing us innocent kids up there should have tested the spirits, just to make sure. There is an article out there where this man went up there beforehand and experienced the same thing BUT he tested the spirits BEFORE bringing his youth group up there and the Lord led him not to bring them.
In these last days we have to be THAT miliant! The devil is pulling out ALL the stops going as far as to fake ENTIRE REVIVALS that last for years long and then manipulating them for the downfall and innocent people get duped and confused.
I have let it go and gave it to God but I am here to WARN people so the same thing won’t happen to them.
What kind of person would I be not too? I wish someone would have warned me 8 years ago. If my mom went up there with us (heck if any reasonable sane adult christian wold have went) it would have been a wrap! lol!
Even she as strong as she was thought it was real….. for about a one minute! She searched the scriptures and saw the video from Toronto and called the nonsense out on the carpet. She didn’t even know about all the real crazy stuff just the “holy laughter”. We argued for the longest over this. She even cut off ties to the church/pastor where I went to youth group because they began to model themselves after Toronto and the pastor of this church wasn’t just some random guy him and his wife were friends with my mom for 30 years! There is no bad blood between my mom and him(some of the other parents really had it out with them after the holy shaking and laughter started in the Christian school they had and the kids would go home doing that and the parents had enough!).
So there was no bad blood but he knows something was up because she didn’t really tie herself to that church. She came to visit his church and saw what was going on, prayed, read the word, and made a decision. He had expected her to join the church and she didn’t and they barely spoke in years so he knows what’s up.
I was still in denial though because I was the one who had been part of it first-hand and I was very involved in that church and I thought: I truly love the Lord and I want to be his servant. he wouldn’t allow me and THOUSANDS of honest good hearted people to be duped right? Wrong. The adults should have searched the scriptures and protected themselves, the kids, and the weaker adults in Christ.
Here is a timeline of my life in the church. Church names have most definitely been changed lol.
1. CCC–main church: 2 weeks old to 19 years old: Where I got a wonderful foundation in the Lord and was blessed with a wonderful pastor who was a faithful, honest once in a lifetime great shepard! The man that came after him…well that is a whole other cheesecake lol.
2: NHF–youth program: 15 years old to 19: This is were all the nutty stuff above took place lol and the church that copied Toronto. My main church CCC at this point was transitioning from our old to new pastor and things started to go downhill and my mom didn’t want us kids to get caught up in the adult bureaucratic nonsense of it all. So I started attending NHF youth group where her friend was the pastor.
3. TC–main church: 20 to 21/22: I left NHF after all of the above happened and my poor mommy left CCC after 30 years. It was hard for her but she prayed and the Lord told her it was time. She is not churchhopper. The shortest time she have ever stayed in one church is 12 years! Her soul isn’t a game to her and she wanted to make sure this move was of the Lord! So we all started going to the same church like the good old days but I stopped going after a year I was still so angry/bitter at the Lord about all the stuff that happened (Spiritual innocence lost, deceptive leadership, friendships lost, and stuff I can’t even mention) and only until now have I started to heal!!!
I guess it’s better to heal now at 23 going on 24 than at 64 ya know??
P.S Mom is still faithfully attending TC now for about 4 years. They had problems there too but the Lord removed the evil shepard and kept the church family in tact! Praise God! Let’s all pray the Lord keeps them on track and the devil won’t jump into it because you know his stanky butt is going to try.
She keeps begging me to come back to church and that alot of people miss me and even after all this time still ask for me CONSTANTLY (I’m very outgoing and have worked in every church I have been in doing things from worship to Sunday School and more in every church I have attended so I tend to stick out lol.). She tries to make me feel bad about not going but I pray and read my bible outside of the traditional church with a small group. It’s church but with a small group in someone’s home.
Will I have been seriously praying and reading the word and waiting to hear from Him for what he wants me to do.
April 24th, 2007 at 8:57 am
I’m not defending this stuff, I just need to understand. Jennifer what are you warning us about? That you had a bad experience? What would you say the dangers are of these kind of manifestations?
April 24th, 2007 at 9:21 am
Marlene and Jennifer,
You might enjoy these articles by Andrew Strom Was Toronto a Test and Derek Prince Protection from Deception. I only skimmed the latter, but what I saw looked like sage advice from an elder brother.
Sam
April 24th, 2007 at 10:34 am
“Jennifer what are you warning us about? That you had a bad experience?
That even Christians with the purest hearts and best intentions can be fooled and that the devil is pulling out ALL the stops in these last days (AND GOD IS ALLOWING HIM TO IN A WAY TO TEST US) and we as Christians have to be more diligent than ever in reading the bible, praying, being aware of false prophets and staying away from them, and helping others to open their eyes to the truth of God and the word and not a false doctrine.
“What would you say the dangers are of these kind of manifestations?”
Umm they are unscriptual and some would even say down-right demonic! It’s one thing to fall out in the spirit but laughing in the spirit, barking like a dog, clucking like a chicken, roaring like a lion are NOT scriptual and the ultimate worse thing was these thing would happen and sometime INTERRUPT prayer and the word of God! THESE MANIFESTATIONS ARE ALL UNSCRIPTUAL ALL MANIFESTATIONS OF GOD ARE GROUNDED IN SCRIPTURE–2 Timothy 3:16.
Why would God interrupt his own word from coming forth and distract people during prayer?? He wouldn’t! Here is some more scripture for you to reflect on and please click the links above:2 Thessalonians 2:9-12,–Matthew 24: 4, 5, 11 ,24 –John 8:32 and finally I Thessalonians 5:21.
I will put tons more if needed.
I cannot sit by and let especially young people be duped and end up losing their souls. The LEAST I can do is expose them to the truth using scripture and let God do the rest.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Thanks I read the Derek Prince article…it answered a lot of questions I have had. The church I grew up in was very much against the Toronto blessing being of the Holy Spirit. It was only when I was at city church that I encountered people who seemed to think it was Godly. So all that I have seen in the last few years has left me with a bunch of questions about how the Holy Spirit moves. One of the reasons that I left the city church was a speaker that they brought in Leroy Thompson…this guy was a nut case! (you should listen to it for some good fodder) He stood on the pulpit and proclaimed that the Holy Spirit was the spirit of wealth! All I could think when I heard this was “Blasphemy!” The really telling thing was that Wendell himself went up and was slain in whatever spirit this man was selling….So I walked away shaking the dust from my feet. Jennifer you are right we need to pull out our Bibles and test these spirits to see if in fact they are of the Lord…and in the churches in question I think more often than not we would find what Derek Prince calls “mixture.”
April 24th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Thanks for posting those two article links. These men articulated what I’ve felt for YEARS concerning the various “Revival Movements” du jour. Our church went gung-ho over these various movements (Brownsville, Pensacola, Smithton) , and while never formally renouncing these movements by proclaiming they weren’t of God, talk of these revivals just faded away after awhile and leadership did back off by giving the disclaimer “the flesh does sometimes get in when the Spirit is moving” (IE: the “mixture” Derek Prince described)
I guess what I’m wondering, though, is whether the Holy Spirit was ever in these revivals to begin with? True revival brings repentance in the church and salvation to the unbeliever. Are the churches filled in these cities with repentant new believers? How’s the crime rate? Have the topless bars all closed down?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Hi Anon,
After many many years of praying for corporate revival, and knowing many of my friends have as well, not one of us has ever seen it … I think it has something to do with that old saying “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link” - there may be people in an institutional church setting who are passionate for revival, but there are usually far more who are satisfied with the status quo and resistant to moving forward - which is of course resistance to the Holy Spirit.
One of my first articles was about revival - and it was sort of ‘formula’ based - still it approaches some of the spiritual disciplines that precede revival - I wrote it because my last church in Kent, Washington had a group of men praying several times per week for YEARS for revival … when I asked one of them what they meant by revival, he said he didn’t now - and then suggested perhaps it was a greater hunger for God … it wasn’t long after that the Lord prompted me to prayer walk that church daily for the 50 days between Easter and Pentecost in 1999 … on Easter I expected to see the heavens part and the Glory of God to descend … instead, the pastor of that non/anti-charismatic church didn’t even MENTION Pentecost and I was fit to be tied … so I resumed prayer walking the church that night and opened my prayer with “O God, I’m Baaaaack!!!” …
On our last night in Kent (I’m in Illinois now), I talked with my friend about revival and late that night the Lord began to speak to me about it … saying basically that He would not be sending revival to such a church, but rather He would send discipline because they were in sin and particularly resistant to the Holy Spirit. They have since become a very program oriented church, embracing the whole “purpose given church” agenda …
Among the things God showed me about revival, is that it is INDIVIDUAL and PERSONAL - and follows spiritual disciplines such as confession, repentence, fasting and prayer, meditating on the scriptures, and listening.
Finally, the Lord gave me a word, which you may or may not witness too, and that is simply “REVIVAL COMES THROUGH DESTRUCTION”. (He likes to give me fortune cookie length words). I have meditated on that a lot, and have come to view “destruction” as the spiritual practice of crucifying our flesh (going to the cross and being crucified with Christ), AND, tearing down our works of the flesh and repenting of them.
Lake many of you I am sure, I have experienced personal revival, personal re-birth via the Holy Spirit - personal baptism by that same Spirit - the teachings and understandings of men have been torn down or are in the process of being torn down - my mind is being renewed with the mind of Christ … I am REVIVED.
As for the sins of institutionalism, look no farther than greedy money-motivated preaching and giving, resisting the Holy Spirit, investing in real estate rather than in people, denominationalism - how can a church expect God to send revival when they are unwilling to give up their sin?
Those places are not in revival. They have been duped with a counterfeit feel-good experience of the spirit/flesh.
Revival? It’s through the cross - and anyone who has been revived will tell you that the cross does NOT feel good. It will bring you to the end of yourself - it will leave you broken and sobbing and uttering the only thing any of us can utter: “Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit” (in other words, I have NOTHING to offer you, and can only hope that you save me).
There’s no revival without going to the cross.
Sam
April 24th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Sam, how would you define “revival”? What would it look like?
I’ve heard a lot of Christians talk about, pray for, and hype up revival my entire life. I have yet to hear a definition that would actually quantifiable in some way. It’s just my opinion, but I’ve come to the conclusion that the church’s idea of revival is so vague and nebulous and involves a lot of things that the church should be doing anyway, but they are so caught up in themselves that they are unable to even see it, let alone do it.
Revival isn’t a Bible word, it’s an IC word, and as far as I’m concerned it’s a bit of an oxymoron.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Agreed, FICM. Not a Bible word - and my notion of it has gone from Toronto like circus, to nothing more or less than spiritual re-birth.
There are a few scriptures about revival … Jairus daughter, the widows son, and of course Lazarus. Each were dead and revived. In the spiritual sense, we all were dead and are revived by spiritual rebirth.
FICM, I don’t really have a set idea about how or when that occurs any longer - for if you’d asked me 10 years ago, when I was happy attending a traditional denomination church, somewhat legalistic, I believed myself to be born again and spiritually alive. I was writing songs that were clearly the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and had several experiences with the ‘word of knowledge’ … but I was still very much a slave to religion, scared of and resistant to the Holy Spirit and the expressive gifts … until the day Jesus baptised me in the Holy Spirit and I erupted in praise … suddenly I was hearing the Lord as if He were standing right next to me whispering in my ear …
I’m left wondering if that was my re-birth - or if all of a person’s faith walk is a birth process unto death and joining Jesus in His Kingdom? When was I ‘revived’? When I was 14 and saw my first vision and received Christ as my Savior by prayer? Or was it in ‘99 when I received the baptism?
Guess I think that revival is the process of being turned from the world unto Christ - from the flesh unto spirit - from death unto life … it’s not a high-powered worship service …
Concerning corporate revival in the IC, I’d like to muse a little … Where revived means to restore something that is dead to living, and where people are applying the word “revival” to the institutional church, I have to ask if the “institutional church” was ever really alive? Or if institutionalism by definition is dead? What would a revived institutional church look like? To what point would the institutional church be restored? Would it be rolled back to Emperor Constantine’s original vision? Back to a time before the Anglicans split from the Catholics? If the will of Jesus is unity, it would make sense that revival in the IC would begin with the first IC - the Catholic church - and all of us protestants would recant and return to the mother church …
In as much as the IC is a departure from the Church Jesus founded and the Church of Acts 2&4, I just can’t see Jesus reviving it - instead, I see Him throwing it down and bringing the people out unto life in Him and unit with each other.
April 24th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Interesting comments on ‘revival’. I don’t think I’ve ever seen it on a large scale, but on a personal level.
What I see in the word is a time of repentance, such as Matt. 3:1-8, where John the Baptist was in the wilderness, and it says Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea, and all the district around the Jordan. They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River and confessed their sins.
John told them to “bring forth fruit in keeping with your repentance”.
Of course, after some time of this, 6 months (?), Jesus Christ came on the scene and began to minister.
We see this again in Acts 2:37-45 or so. The people asked, “Bretheren, what shall we do?” Peter’s answer was, “Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” I think the ‘fruit” of their repentance is seen in :45, “and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all as anyone might have need.”
As an aside here, how is it that today, someone has a ‘vision’ from God and it requires people in need to give money so the ‘leaders’ can BUY PROPERTY AND POSSESSIONS? This is the complete opposite of real Christianity!
April 25th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Even more amazing, how come no one ever seems to question or discern whether the vision is indeed from God?
Why don’t churches specifically teach people about discernment, encourage discernment, even incorporate TIME for discernment within their services?
1 Corinthians 14:26-32 HNV What is it then, brothers? When you come together, each one of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has another language, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to build each other up. (27) If any man speaks in another language, let it be two, or at the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret. (28) But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the assembly, and let him speak to himself, and to God. (29) Let the prophets speak, two or three, and let the others discern. (30) But if a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first keep silent. (31) For you all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted. (32) The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
From scripture it’s clear when there is tongues in the assembly, there is to be interpretation in the assembly - in fact it suggests that the people and their gifts are known for their gifts and only if there is a known interpreter present is there to be tongues …. likewise prophecy goes hand in hand with discernment.
How is it that people are prophesying and sharing dreams and visions WITHOUT others discerning them and discerning the Spirit(s) of the persons prophesying?
It seems clear from scripture that just as TIME is set aside for the interpretation of a message in a tongue to come forth, TIME should be set aside for the discernment of prophecy. Scripture has essentially established a PROCESS for tongues and prophecy, and it sounds like that process is not being followed?
April 25th, 2007 at 7:56 am
“One of the reasons that I left the city church was a speaker that they brought in Leroy Thompson…this guy was a nut case! (you should listen to it for some good fodder) He stood on the pulpit and proclaimed that the Holy Spirit was the spirit of wealth! All I could think when I heard this was “Blasphemy!” The really telling thing was that Wendell himself went up and was slain in whatever spirit this man was selling…”
Don’t get me started on Pastor “all I care and speak about is the dolla dolla” Leroy Thompson. Wendell is a fool.
“Jennifer you are right we need to pull out our Bibles and test these spirits to see if in fact they are of the Lord….”
More than ever, more than ever.
April 25th, 2007 at 8:03 am
Sam, the answer to your question is simple. It’s called control. Control of the Church(people of God). Control of the Holy Spirit. Control of anyone questioning the leaders integrity, motivation and direction. It all comes down to that big word “CONTROL”. And all you have to do is be in church or churches long enough, take a few notes, pay attention and hang around a few leaders and it becomes real obvious real fast. I’m noticing it in some relatives of mine who are in leadership. It’s very interesting to watch the changes in people who begin to enjoy the power of that word.
April 26th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Jennifer expressed great concern over the Toronto manifestations because, in her view, they are “not Scriptural.”
Hi Jennifer: Thank you for sharing some of your concerns on the Toronto Blessing. I am sorry for you, your mother or anyone else who was hurt by anything to do with Toronto. I know that some were, as in all movements. Many people, however, myself included, were really blessed by Toronto Blessing, and I don’t feel that we should throw the baby away with the dirty bath water. I’d like to explain:
Peter never got gold fillings, did he?
I appreciate your concern that all manifestations should be “scriptural.” As Christians, all that we believe and do should be based on the Bible, should it not? Are you saying, however, that if someone claims that God filled their teeth with gold, and can show documentation for it, that we should not believe it unless someone in the Bible had their teeth filled in the same way first? If someone barks like a dog, and can tell you later how the Spirit used that to communicate a certain message to them, e.g., that they were to become bolder in their faith even as a dog, are we to categorically say that such a manifestation was from the devil because the only thing close to that in Scripture is the talking donkey of Balaam - and Balaam’s talking donkey was not a dog!?
The Letter vs the Spirit of Scripture:
What I am trying so share is that, in my view, there is a difference between something being acccording to the “letter” of Scripture and that which is according to the “spirit” of Scripture. For example, when Jesus uses spit to heal a man; when Agabus grabbed Paul’s belt or mantle as uses it as a prophetic sign of his upcoming imprisonment; when Jesus’ word in the Garden causes a Roman guard to fall over on his back; when Ezekiel or Jeremiah lays on his side for 40 some days; when Paul falls off of his horse when Jesus appears to him and is blind for several days before he is healed; when Isaiah walks around the city half or fully naked as a prophetic symbol of its upcoming judgment, etc. do you think that all of these prophetic signs in daily life first required a “scriptural” precedent before they could be validly from God?
What do you think?
April 26th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
“Are you saying, however, that if someone claims that God filled their teeth with gold, and can show documentation for it, that we should not believe it unless someone in the Bible had their teeth filled in the same way first?”
The problem is there has never been documentation for it. And frankly no, if it isn’t scriptual I don’t want anything to do with it.
What does barking like a dog convey? How does that manifestation help the person grow spiritually in the Lord? All GODLY manifestations are for our growth in Christ in our lives in some form or another. How does a gold tooth or barking like a dog help anyone grow spiritually in Christ or help anyone around them grow in Christ?
April 26th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Well, usually it means they’re hungry, or need to go out and do their business, or want to chase the mail man, or maybe they just want to hump your leg.
‘Scrupe
April 26th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
That’s why I love this blog…it may be immature, but it makes me laugh.
April 26th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Found something real interesting on Youtube that I’d never seen before … it was snippets of a 1972 video of a famous child evangelist from the 40’s, named Marjoe Gortner. In fact, the documentary won an academy award in ‘72 - the basis of the film was following Gortner around, filming him at tent-revivals across the south, and off camera he exposes all the “tricks of the trade” to the cameramen.
Here’s the first and second Youtube clips, and an interesting bio on Wikipedia. An interview of Marjoe can be found here (don’t let the web address or authors side bar dissuade you - it’s eye opening).
Don’t miss this one, guys - it’s incredible …
Sam
April 26th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
“Well, usually it means they’re hungry, or need to go out and do their business, or want to chase the mail man, or maybe they just want to hump your leg.”
Hahahahaha. Now what does it mean when a human does it?? Like I said before:All GODLY manifestations are for our growth in Christ in our lives in some form or another and to help other grow in Christ. Now maybe it’s just me but I don’t see how a human barking like a dog and rolling around on the floor helps me or someone else grow in the Lord. Maybe someone else sees it because the people that had this manifestation in my old church didn’t grow in the Lord. They either: ended up confused and gone from the church, fraustrated and gone from the church, or staying in the church not growing and continuing to follow false doctine. Point is, they didn’t grow.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
I don’t know - I’ve never had a human try to hump my leg …
April 27th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Jennifer asks (approx.): What does it mean when a human being barks like a dog as a spiritual manifestion? Does it ever make them grow in Christ?
Jennifer: One night when I was over at Mark and Susan Jones’ home (CBC elders) for a prayer meeting, I was lying on the floor, and I felt the Spirit ask me to bark like a dog aloud. I said no. He asked me again. Again, I said no. Finally, I gave in and barked several times aloud like man’s best friend. I’m sure that everyone in the meeting heard it. As soon as I did this, even though I had initially felt embarrassed and definitely hesitant, the Spirit gave me the reason why he had asked me to take such a bizarre step of faith. He told me that he was going to increase my boldness and strength to proclaim and share his Word - even as a guard dog would bark when strangers would approach its master’s residence. This has indeed come to pass. In my case, anyway, unless I was under the influence of a demonic presence, the Lord used this manifestation to cause me to grow in my spiritual boldness in him.
Also, I am still interested in what you have to share about my earlier blog when I addressed your excellent concern about the “scripturalness” of the Toronto-related manifestations.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:57 am
Jennifer said: The problem is there has never been documentation for it. And frankly no, if it isn’t scriptual I don’t want anything to do with it.
Jennifer: I apologize for not seeing this comment and saying in my last blog that I was still waiting for a response to my post!
I don’t have the time right now to search and see if there is any documentation on gold fillings. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. I do remember, however, sitting in a service in the Westside Vineyard (Arlan Askew, pastor) several years ago and hearing quite a few people get up in front of the church and testify to their dental miracles. I should have asked them if I could see a copy of their dental records at the time.
When you say, “Frankly no, if it isn’t scriptual I don’t want anything to do with it,” I would like to hear your response to my previous blog about the manifestations in the Bible that did not have a “biblical” precedent. Honestly, what do you think about those?
Are you saying that today God would not heal a woman of blindness if a blind woman was not healed in the pages of Scripture? Are you saying that Jesus does not heal cancer and heart disease in this generation because there are no cases of cancer and heart disease healed by Jesus in the Bible? What do you really mean by “biblical” and “unbiblical?”
What if we could not find any examples in the OT or the NT of small infants being healed by God - would that mean that he would not heal small babies today because he would consider it “unscriptural” to do so? As far as I know, there are no healings recorded in the Bible as taking place in India, the USA, or South America. Does that mean that miracles in those places today are not of God because the Bible does not record the same within its own pages? I want to encourage you to think a little more broadly about God and his loving signs and wonders in the earth and throughout history, as well as meditate a bit more deeply on what the term “scriptural” means.
I know that when I have put God in a box over the years - albeit a “biblical” one - I like to remember the title of a book by J. B. Phillips that I have in my library. The book is entitled: “Your God is Too Small.”
April 27th, 2007 at 9:35 am
I need a revival after reading this thread.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Reforming Heathen said: I need a revival after reading this thread.
R. Heathen: How come?
April 27th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Because I feel faint from the effort.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Who cares about them fillings, just give those hours of laughter I had in Toronto and afterwards. There ain’t nothing like it.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
“Who cares about them fillings, just give those hours of laughter I had in Toronto and afterwards. There ain’t nothing like it.”
They weren’t of God but they were awesome LOL! I had laughter for hours, never was one of the lucky ones to get a gold tooth :….(
April 28th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
So what was that all about I’d love to know.
April 28th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
What was what all about? Free A Last
April 29th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
The entire Toronto thing. We all have so many memories of our church sending people up there and bringing it back with them in their suitcases to our church.
Hundreds of people leaving –the fallout was great. Anyone who questioned it was condemned. Our leaders seemed to have to top someone with odd behavior to prove who was more spiritual.
My question is what fruit came from it. I thought I knew at the time but after a few years like Jennifer I see the real fallout –little maturity and certainly no love which is always the true fruit. I’m not saying I have all the answers on it –where is this in the frame of things? Is it the end result of the latter day rain group
thinking —did we just want ‘’something big to happen?”
April 29th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Truthfully, I don’t know if there was alot of good fruit from it. I can’t say it influenced me for the good or the bad. I had already been warned about all the fleshly stuff but decided to go up there with my wife anyway and check it out. There sure was alot of forced stuff that happened. Alot of people just wanted attention and to make you think something was happening to them. But there were others that seemed to be genuine albeit I couldn’t tell for sure. But I do remember the laughter that happened to me. Just out of the blue I started to laugh uncontrollably. It lasted from probably around 5 o’clock in the afternoon to well into the next morning. I’d fall asleep and all of a sudden wake up laughing for an hour or two. There sure was alot of stress released in those hours. It was like crying for hours except much better. This went off and on for the next couple of weeks even after getting home from Toronto. My wife had a similar experience the second time she went up there, although not as strong. So all in all I enjoyed my experience and we did see some negative and positive stuff in our church as a result of it all. Some times it makes me laugh just thinking about it.
April 29th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
And if you asked me, was it worth the money to up to Toronto to laugh that hard, I’d have to say YES cause there ain’t nothing like it.
April 29th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
“But there were others that seemed to be genuine albeit I couldn’t tell for sure. But I do remember the laughter that happened to me. Just out of the blue I started to laugh uncontrollably.”
Oh it was some of it was real, whether it was really of God or really a massive ploy of the devil is the right question lol. I saw kids in my youth group that NEVER spoke/very cynical crying, laughing, and rolling around on the flood, oh and roaring like a lion. So because of that big change alot of people automatically assumed it was of God.
April 30th, 2007 at 5:39 am
I’d like to ask, did anybody see any fruit from it? My brother in law, whose a pastor, believes that they saw alot of good fruit from it. He said that he saw alot of transformations take place that seemed to have lasted.
April 30th, 2007 at 6:20 am
Several years ago I visited a Vineyard church in Rockford, IL, for a prophetic conference, where one of the leaders had visited Toronto and supposedly brought the ‘Toronto blessing’ back with him. About 15 minutes before service - he’d walk through the congregation which was in the gym of an old gradeschool - and shake hands … everyone he shook hands with got weak in the knees, started laughing, or fell to the floor.
Except me.
And the look in his eyes when I was unaffected by it? It sure wasn’t from the Holy Spirit - it was anger and hatred. He squeezed harder as if that would make me fall under his power … absolutely nothing. It was a 2 day conference and the guy avoided me after that first night.
It taught me to be careful about whom I allow to lay hands on me - for not every spirit is of God, nor every prayer of God’s Spirit. That ‘toronto blessing’ may well be candy-coated poison for some people, and I’m thankful the Lord shielded me from that silliness.
April 30th, 2007 at 7:27 am
As one who has seen and experienced the Toronto thing for 13 years, I can share what I have observed:
With Toronto, it seemed people became willing to open their churches and open their spirits for more spiritual activity. And when a spiritual “door” is open, other spirits besides the Holy Spirit use it. When there is little discernment, that can be dangerous.
There was a lot of good fruit from the Toronto blessing. People had an opportunity to get closer to the Lord. It seemed easier to be in His presence. There was an explosion of worship music that reflected that. There was an increased desire to get together and pray, and like Mark Jones says, “More prayer is better than less prayer.” Some close and wonderful relationships were made by people who were on the floor together crying out to God. Personally, it was a time of great spiritual growth for me.
On the down side, I saw people using it as a substitute for real spiritual disciplines (like Bible reading, fasting and personal prayer times). I went to a workshop by a Toronto couple who taught people how to have soaking rooms in their churches and homes. They said that they just put the music on and let people soak in God’s presence. In fact for some people that was their church. I asked this couple if they ever did Bible studies or taught the Word. They said something like, “No, they will find whatever teaching they need.” Dangerous!!!
I also saw people using the spiritual “power” in manipulative ways, and like Sam saw, there seemed to be almost no discernment. Some people used it to increase their “standing” in the church community. Some people, including leaders, used it to put themselves on the “prophet” or “apostle” pedestal. And then clueless sheep follow these people right into deception.
For those who used that time of spiritual openness to seek the Lord and His kingdom, it was a wonderful experience, and the effects continue. For those who used it as a way to further their own agendas, the power became addictive for them. For the spiritually naive who opened their hearts to spiritual things without having the biblical training as a judge to these things, it was a disaster.
Why the Lord did this, I don’t know, except perhaps:
(1) that it has been a clarifier of people’s spiritual condition.
(2) it has been an opportunity to get to know Him better.
(3) it has exposed a woeful lack of teaching in the charismatic churches.
I’m sure others can add to the list.
May 1st, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I think the outpouring commonly called the “Toronto Blessing” bore some real fruit at CBC. I saw some good people made into even better people–more full of grace, more humility, less pent up.
I am not one of those people who are easily “touched” for some reason. I don’t think it has anything to do with faith or submission to the Spirit or anything. I think it more has to do with genetic makeup, physical sensitivity, etc. I felt the presence of God more in those days, but was never one to fall or laugh or anything. And I TOTALLY would have liked to have been.
I do remember Lanny and Joanne praying for me once–and they lingered long and never touched me. But the longer they were there the more of a “warmth” I felt around my shoulders, almost like a cloak around me. Had they stayed longer, maybe I would have been “slain”. Who knows?
But it was a blessing just seeing others touched, and praying for others.
There was a feeling of community and an ethic of truly seeking God that could not have been wrong.
May 16th, 2007 at 6:59 am
[…] I know JP has made a few observations about Pastor Rick Snow. Anyone else? […]
May 16th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Wow. So noone really noticed this, but this is incredible. Why have I never hear of this guy? Wow - that makes me even more skeptical of a lot of things that preachers do that I’ve always wondered about.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
[…] The first comment struck me as being rather humble. Throughout his sermon, Rick did a good job of teaching the difference between Justification and Sanctification. His view on grace was good…honest…and Biblical. I haven’t listened to any other sermons in this series on grace, but message 1 was good. It certainly was a far cry from the 2 sermons I heard him speak at City Bible Church… […]