Here is Another great post by Anna Thanks. (btw, the sermon she is referring to is Window's The Provisions of God, Part 2 (Preached on 5/6/07).
Yesterday I listened to a continuation of the sermon given last Sunday. PF expanded even more on living in blessing…
…PF used an example of how God will orchestrate things for your benefit, and he told the story of a generous man with a painting company who offered to paint the ‘Couve campus for only the cost of the paint ($7000) and waived the labor and equipment fees ($30000+). His response to this generosity? "Thank You Jesus!" Any thanks to the generous man? Hmmm.
Lets not forget that not only did a kind painter offer $30,000 worth of free labor, CBC is also getting the 217 sign replaced for free (a $3,000 value), all because Frank knows how to slide open the windows of heaven, I guess.
I'm not sure why either of those things are listed as "open heavens"…I certainly don't see any examples of that in the Bible (if that book is still relevant…I've been listening to so many CBC and Judah Smith sermons lately I'm beginning to wonder).
I also thought it interesting that in Frank's 1st "Window's" sermon he told us that we shouldn't worry because "This is not a finance series"…but he has done nothing but talk about finances (aka blessings from God). I keep waiting for him to talk about something other than finances…but I doubt it happens. (I'm going to go off on a bit of a tanget here, I don't recall for certain if Frank used the following scriptures in this sermon, but he has used them in the past and so…)
I'm constantly amazed at how prosperity preachers (such as PF) are willing to quote Matthew 6:21 "where your treasure is there your heart is also" in the middle of a sermon about "Giving money to them" (which is by far the most common topic they preach on) and yet they can't see the correlation to what their own "treasure" is.
If you spend more time Preaching on "giving you money" than anything else…that would mean you would spend more time Preparing to preach on "giving you money" than anything else…which would lead to you spending more time Thinking about people "giving you money" than anything else…yup, I'd say that's where your heart is…right next to your treasure (actually, it's someone else's "treasure", Frank is just trying to get CBC's hands on it).
Then they often throw in Mathew 6:19-20 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy…" yet that is exactly what THEY ARE TRYING TO DO. It's so incredibly contradictory…I can hardly stand it. Lets try to take a logical look at this:
You, as a member of his church (CBC), are told to "not store up treasures on earth" because when you die "you can't take it with you" (typically followed by the quote "I've never seen a Hearst towing a U-Haul"…lame.). So the solution, he tells you, is to give away all your treasures…to the church…so they can…store…up…treasure…(long hard pause)…for themselves…?…and in return for this Frank promises that God…will give you…more treasures?
It doesn't add up. If my money is worthless because "you can't take treasures with you" then why does CBC want it…?
I'm going to go throw up now.
Has anyone ever stopped to think about those living in these communities where these natural disasters are occurring or where the economy of a community changes all of sudden. I mean those in these communities who are 100% faithful tithers and all of a sudden, everything is taken from them. I wonder how they view the Malichi 3 verses. Do they think, “oh I must be under the curse because of that time I missed paying my tithe back in May 3 of 1977.” How sad to think that God would render vengeance for that temporary lack. But these pastors make God sound just like that. Do what’s right and be faithful in paying your dues and God will take care of you, but if you slip up, the club is going to come down hard and you never know when it will happen. Why would anyone want to serve a God like that? He may as well be Allah?
Or I wonder if anyone has ever taken a survey of a group of people who are faithful tithers, a group who tithe now and then and a group who never tithe. Follow them around for years and just see whether the scriptures according to PF come true just like a formula. Do those who faithfully tithe, reap according to Malachi more than they can handle? Are those who don’t tithe cursed with all the cursings mentioned in Deut. I wonder why a survey hasn’t been done like this, because the results should be pretty evident you would think.
I would think that such a survey could very easily be posted online. You could have a thousand or more people sign up and post their weekly or monthly reports about blessings or cursings. Are they being blessed more than they can handle because of their faithfulness to tithing? Are those who don’t tithe coming down with diseases and losing their children? Anyway, just a thought.
Exactly. They’re not “storing up treasures on earth,” but they are “storing up treasures in heaven.” They view it as advancing the kingdom of heaven, and they’re money is a “investment” into the kingdom of God, something that they’ll get a return on once they enter the pearly gates. By building up CBC as a corporation (basically what it already is), they’re building up treasures in heaven.
Problem is, I don’t ever remember Jesus commanding us to build extravagant buildings and pay ministers huge salaries so they can live in enormous homes off of preaching the “gospel.” I’m reminded of when Paul said that he and his fellow ministers we’re not like most, preaching the gospel for profit.
I do, however, remember Jesus saying that He was hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, sick, and in prison. And those who are His sheep fed Him, gave Him a drink, invited Him in, clothed Him, visited Him and came to Him. He never said they had huge TV ministries, extravagant buildings to meet in, or were paid huge salaries to preach.
Which sounds nice until you actually think things through:
CBC will be the first to say “The Church isn’t a building, it’s the people”, right? So, if CBC uses your “treasures” to buy new Plasma Screen TV’s and New Carpeting and Coffee Shops for the “Church building” wouldn’t that be the same as you buying those same things for your own home?
If the church is really “people” and not just a “building” then you as a member of that church should be able to buy yourself a new TV, Espresso Machine’s, Remodel the bathrooms if you like…and you can claim “Open Heavens” since it is all the name of “building His kingdom”.
By the way, according to Romans 14:17 (paraphrased) “The Kingdom of God is not Plasma Screen TV’s and Coffee shops, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” (I guess since Malachi didn’t say that, it doesn’t count…right Frank?)
(Chewing an anti-acid tablet is the best for getting rid of the taste…)
Sounds to me like the painter was looking for a tax deduction.
The hypocrisy is evidence both for CBC as a whole (“give us your money so that we can build physical luxurious church-mansions”) and for its leaders (“give us your money so that we can live in luxurious mansions and otherwise enjoy a wealthier lifestyle than most of you do”).
I’m not saying it’s more spiritual to be poor, or more spiritual to be rich. Neither is true. Spirituality isn’t based on how much money we have or don’t have. Nor am I saying that churches shouldn’t pay their pastors a living wage (I know some of you think that churches shouldn’t have paid pastors, but I don’t necessarily agree with that). What I am saying is that the tithing and other financial messages that come from CBC are, to quote Paul, dung.
“Not Intimidated,” I love your survey idea. I likely share your assumptions about the results of such a survey. God does not operate according to formulas, and as much as we would like to have formulas that would ensure our blessing (through “tithing”), ensure our protection from harm (through adhering to our lists of do’s and don’t's), it just doesn’t work that way. However, CBC’s very foundation consists of these formulas. The leaders either know the truth and lie intentionally to their followers or they are deceived themselves. My guess is that most of them fall into category #2, because as much as I hear about “all the people at CBC who ‘get it’ and stay to ‘help,’” I just don’t believe that people who truly “get it” could stay in that system.
FICM, unless my CPA has bee ill-advising us all these years, I’m fairly sure that the painter could deduct his donated supplies, but not the value of his donated time.
Reformed Pope said: It doesn’t add up. If my money is worthless because “you can’t take treasures with you” then why does CBC want it…?
Reformed Pope: Great point! And, why did Sr. Pastors Frank Damazio and Ed Schefter buy an investment property in Government Camp (Mt. Hood) the property bascially across the street to which is on the market for about $1.5 million dollars?
I have recently come to the opinion that every local church member MUST KNOW not only the exact salary/benefit package of their senior pastor but also all of their investment portfolio, i.e., their total net worth! Why? because we are talking about money that God has given to his people and they are responsible not to pad the pockets of wealthy pastor/preachers but to give some of what God has given to them to the poor, e.g., the widows and orphans (James 1:27) – as well as help their own children with a good college education or trade (cf. 2 Cor. 12:14).
Also, there are plenty of humble and sincere pastors in the field who are working double jobs just to serve the church. These need MORE of our money and the prosperity preachers LESS. Paul spoke about their being some sort of financial “equality” in the Body of Christ when he was speaking to the Corinthians about the Macedonians recent sacrificial gifts (2 Cor. 8:13-14). I think his point was to encourage the Corinthians to give to his collection for the impoverished church in Jerusalem then because they had the money, because God’s will is that when they came to a point where they didn’t have any money, God would use others in the Body, like the Macedonians, to come to their aid. I don’t hear Frank, etc. preach about that one very often.
[Comment ID #26154 Will Be Quoted Here]Very Good points made! Thanks David!
I have a question…in Acts 3:6, the Apostle Peter said, “I do not possess silver and gold,” (this is where a lame beggar is healed). Yet in Acts 2:45 and Acts 4:34 and 35, it is clear that persons of means were selling their houses and possessions and laying the money at the Apostles feet. It appears from the text that the money was being spread out to anyone in need. Could it be that Peter, the Chief Apostle didn’t need any money to preach the gospel? No tithing or fund raising is mentioned….how did they do it?
WhatHEsaid ~ How did Peter and the early church support themselves financially when they were giving so much money to the poor?
WhatHEsaid: This is a good question. To my knowledge, we are dealing a little bit with supposition as we try to piece the puzzle together. The original model of traveling prophets/missionaries was that they would travel from village to village, stay in one home while they evangelized the area, probably begin a “house church,†appoint a leader/shepherd (unofficially), and then go to the next location by the Spirit. I’m not sure whether they took their wives along with them even later in using this similar model or not because the gospels tell us that Jesus sent them out “two by two†and there, of course, would be the challenge of what to do with the children.
And yet, Paul tells us that Peter was taking his wife with him on some of his journeys, or at least implying it (I Cor. 9:5). Since Peter and the early apostles did not have a material building or temple to support or maintain, they were able to distribute the lands and monies that came in from the wealthier members of the community to the poor. Their belief that they were living in the last generation of history may have also played a role in all of this in some way.
In my view, even into the second century, hundreds of Christian men took their portable trades along with their families to proclaim the gospel to the regions beyond. With Peter being a fisherman from Galilee, he was in the lower strata of society, but I don’t know if the fishing trade was mobile in those days as was the tent-making trades of Paul, and the married couple who helped him and had a church in their house, Aquila and Priscilla. This couple moved from Rome to Corinth to Ephesus and then back to Rome again. They appear to have been supported by Aquila’s trade and not to have been of significant means (ABD, vol. 5, p. 467).
However, we do find the rise of financial patrons in the first century who supported missionaries. The relationship between these individual patrons and local church support of missionaries would be a very interesting study. I recently spoke with someone who is paying his own way to the mission field. When his pastor heard that they were not wanting any financial support from the local congregation, the pastor’s first reaction was that this brother was acting “too independently†from the local church!
Obviously, there is a huge difference today with the IC: most of the money goes to buildings and staff salaries. I hope to discover more about the finances of the early church in my present studies on the tithe and the economic background of the New Testament in sources like New Testament History by F.F. Bruce and The Jesus Movement by E.W & W. Stegemann.
I don’t have time to develop this right now, but you might be interested in the section of my upcoming book against the mandatory tithe as to what Clive Pick, author of The Transformation, says about why, in his estimation, the early church at first had no financial problems then slipped into great lack.
Let’s both compare notes as we learn more about the early church and its finances, okay?!