Because there is nothing I love more than bringing another church into our circle of fun, here is a question from a new reader:
We have a young man interested in attending the internship at Atlanta City Church (www.atlantacitychurch.com) . We oppose and pray that he makes a different choice. Would love to hear from anyone with experience at ACC.
I am of the same mindset as you all, which is how I found this website in the first place. This is scary business. Do you all see a lot of marrying within the interns and church congregation? It seems a little incestuous!
Where are the Atlanta folks??! Any comments on the leadership there?
I know JP has made a few observations about Pastor Rick Snow. Anyone else?
Why not write Mr. Snow at ACCRSNOW@AOL.COM
Found his personal addy HERE.
No spam now, OK?
Does anyone know why it’s become so trendy in charismatic circles call your church something with city and church in it and to call your youth group generation something?
I swear all these churches are carbon copies of eachother. Or is it just an MFI thing?
I think it’s an MFI thing.
And pretty lame.
Seriously lame. MFI churches have some of the lamest names. It seems that they all try to imply that they are “the church” for their city. The City Church, City Bible Church, Benny Perez’ The Church at South Las Vegas (which just goes by “the church” sometimes), Atlanta City Church, etc. It’s a curious trend.
And then there’s the whole ‘Generation’ thing. I guess that one comes from the mentality that God deals with generations. They always say that God is raising up a generation to do this or to do that. It seems like it’s all a hype thing.
For church names, I was always partial to either African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, or any church known as “First _ Church” …
In the early 80′s, I spent several weeks in the DFW area, and after work drove around to see the sights. At one corner in a suburb of Dallas, there were 4 ‘First’ churches, each a different denomination. I always wanted to ask them which first was first …
Perhaps choosing the ‘City Church’ name has something to do with dominionism? Remember that sermon of Judah’s – The Way of the Water Pot? At the 41:40 mark, Judah exclaims “I am not here to fit in … We are here to take over”.
The Portlanders have seen that especially, what with multiple campuses springing up on both sides of the river, regardless of another MFI church in the neighborhood.
Why, CBC/MFI is kind of the Meatrix of churches …
‘Scrupe
I believe the name is to “fit in” (lol) I think churches should be required to say who they really are and their name should be a representation of that. City Bible represents neither!
btw….Benny Perez/Church of South Las Vegas is not apart of mfi.
hmmmmm….ya, and you know what else is funny??? when a blogsite parodies a name of something else. ie…city bible church….city business church.
apparently you’ve jumped on the trend wagon my friends.
ohhhhh burn. You go girl!
‘scrupe,
The ‘Meatrix’ episode was too funny! It fits like a glove with what goes on in the mega church world. What do you suppose the red and blue pills represent? I’ll go for the ‘tithe’ doctrine for one of them.
I was a member of ACC from the mid-nineties until about 3 years ago. ACC didn’t start out under MFI, but was a church plant from a “mother church” in Alaska (which also started other “daughter” churches besides ACC) about 30 years ago. I’m not sure if this original network of churches exists anymore.
ACC used to be called “Atlanta Christian Center”. The name was changed about 5 years ago when the affiliation with the west-coast City Churches was strengthened. ACC adopted other City-church names(Generation Surge youth ministry) and began having an internship program where the intern pays for a year of bible study, a mission trip, plus basically pays to work for the church (ie: practical ministry in serving the heads of the different departments). Previous speakers at youth camps and conferences include Jude Fuqua (sp?), Benny Perez, and Chris Hill (TD Jakes’ youth pastor). The church has put on the Eternity play 2 or 3 times.
****
SIDE NOTE:
By the way (in reference to the original post expressing concern about the intern program), I HAVE seen young people grow through this program. My main problem was the fact that these kids are supposed to come to ACC to learn, then take back what they learn to their own churches. Many of them, however, seem to get absorbed into ACC and don’t return to their home church. Now, I can only attest to how it seemed to be two + years ago, and some of this is hearsay since I’ve not been there for a long while.
****
From its inception, ACC was a multi-racial church, which was NOT the norm in Georgia back in 1976. When the church outgrew its initial building, Rick sought permission to build in a particular metro county. According to what Rick has shared (and which other long-time members can attest) the person in charge of granting a building permit asked Rick “are you one of them ‘CHAIR-izmatic N-Word Lovin’ churches? ” and basically told Rick, “no, you can’t build here.”. So, land was purchased in south Fulton County (Union City, about 10 minutes south of ATL Hartsfield/Jackson airport) instead and the church continued to grow. They now have a “south campus” in an affluent part of Fayette County (Peachtree City…a planned community with a number of Delta Pilots and other Delta employees) as well as the original north campus in Union City.
The church used to have a healthier environment and was a great place to serve & grow. I don’t want to re-hash any negatives. Suffice it to say that much of what transpires at ACC is the same type of stuff that happens at City Bible.
Rick, the pastor, is what I would call a “visionary” pastor in that he thinks and plans large-scale to advance the kingdom of God. Noble idea, and the Lord has used Rick in many ways, but the strategy has become very BUSINESS like rather than the organic nature of the Body of Christ. In his quest to get a “big picture” of the forest, Rick doesn’t seem to see the individual trees in that forest. I could be wrong, but the “city business” title seems to fit. There is quite a bit of potential in this church, however, and a lot of untapped giftings. Beyond the “tithe” emphasis, Rick is a gifted teacher and shares good “nuggets” from the Word of God, and includes lots of practical ways to apply the Word in your life. I still check out their web from time to time, and listen to some of his messages.
I pray for this church and others like it to come BACK to the simplicity of their first Love, because in that simplicity they will see Jesus more clearly once all the agendas are out of the way. Jesus said when He’s lifted up, He’ll draw all men unto Him.
whatHEsaid,
Glad you liked it.
There’s 3 Meatrix episodes, but I still like the first one best. “Oooohhh! What’s that smell???” … “12 million pounds of excrement” … “Well it smells like sh….” as ‘Moo-pheus’ covers Leo’s mouth …
So typically ‘big church’ and ‘religious’ …
I just loved the Matrix trilogy too – Matrix I was the best … always kinda figured the red and blue pills represented truth and continued delusion, respectively. The blue pill is quite popular in mega-churches, I hear. Hugo Smith was the best as Agent Damazio.
‘Scrupe
If you can think of a better way to parody citybiblechurch.org then to insert “business” into the name where the bible is supposed to be… then let us know.
Former ACC Member said “I pray for this church and others like it to come back…”
BACK??*#* Excuese me?#*!
What you do not like about these churches NOW is the fruit on the same tree these churches were 20-30-50 YEARS AGO.
I remember Dick Iverson telling the church that we needed to buy Rocky Butte property. We could either give to raise the money and do God’s will, or not do God’s will and wander in the dessert for 40 years. Anyone opposed was out side the will of God. He told the story how he was driving into town and saw Rocky Butte and started yelling in his car “GOD GIVE ME THAT MOUNTAIN”.
Even before that, I remember Dick Iverson praying that “the enemy”, a neighbor legally blocking the expansion of BT on the Glisan site would be “removed”. He died and Dick rejoiced and remodeled his building.
Today, your bloggers are are complaining about the City Church “prada syndrom” and Juda Smith’s hair do-do… the son of one of the original “must give the good image, Nordstrom shopper” in the history of BT. I remember visits to BT from the “Alaska” church pastor and wife, with the “image of loveliness” being teaching of the day for women to live up to. We were expected to dress the image.
The Alaska group: unschooled “Why learn greek or hebrew, we have Strongs” pastors, keeping attendance records of it’s members. Seriously! No Exaggeration! I know someone x-communicated because they were saying they should stay home on Sunday if they were helping someone get off drugs and couldn’t leave them alone. And a friend of those people because he refused to treat them as x-communicated.
Oops. I made an entry and only want to be a quiet observer…. But really…. GO BACK??? doesn’t even the bible say something about you’ll know them by their fruit… after 30 years all I see at the church is a bunch of half baked Fruit Cakes.
FormerACCMember said: “My main problem was the fact that these kids are supposed to come to ACC to learn, then take back what they learn to their own churches. Many of them, however, seem to get absorbed into ACC and don’t return to their home church.”
FormerACCMember: Thanks for sharing the background of the ACC church! The problem of students and “visitors” being absorbed into ACC that were originally supposed to go back to their home churches, was (is?) exactly the problem that Portland Bible College had, too. Boy-student meets girl-student and settle down at BT/CBC and have kids – instead of going back home. This happened so much of the time with so many “prime” ministry candidates that many local churches began their own ministry training programs so as not to lose their “investments.”
No-Umbrella said:
… and full of nuts, too!
Very good observations!
Former ACC Member said “I pray for this church and others like it to come back…â€
No-Umbrella, I can’t really comment on that because I wasn’t a part of the church 20 + years ago. I can only go by what I saw in my church at the time. Yeah, in the beginning there were some elements of the drive for excellence and SOME element of elitism, but these were nowhere NEAR the degree they are today, and by and large there was quite a bit of freedom in Christ, good solid teaching, and good “non-forced” relationships. Things didn’t start getting “bad” at ACC until about 7 or 8 years ago. And even within that “bad” there was still quite a bit of good. I think that there are going to be elements of that in EVERY church due to the fact that the church is made up of people and we’re ALL flawed people.
That absolutely stinks. It should have been presented in a non-manipulative way, with much prayer among the elders and congregation. If it was God’s will, He would have provided the funds without the “thus saith the Lord” threats. Still, ACC did not use to be under the covering of Dick Iverson in the early days, and I cannot comment on how things were then since I wasn’t there.
The other unscriptural occurences in the early days of Bible Temple which you mention stink in the nostrils of the Lord too
Still, my particular post was in reference to ACC and occurences there. I’ve NEVER witnessed blatant abuses there to the degree you experienced. Also, I think that in the beginning, just about all churches begin with the desire to know God and make Him known. The leader in place may feel strongly that God has given them a particular vision as to how to implement that. However, as soon as the leader gets prideful and starts putting their own agenda ahead of God’s agenda, he loses sight of the pure and undefiled worship of the Living God.. That’s what I meamt by praying these churches find again their first Love!
I wish it was as cut and dried as that. I don’t see it that way. I had seen some of that same “Prada” culture emerge and it didn’t sit well with me either, which is ONE reason I left. It was a combination of many nagging little things and a few bigger things.
Still, the church isn’t just one man or one leadership team. It’s ALL the people there that comprise the body of Christ. There are some fruit cakes, to be sure…but there’s also a lot of good people there and I have a hard time blanketly labeling a whole movement or congregation as “half-baked”.
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I know in my years at BT I there because i intensely wanted to find God and that many people that are in this type of church are sincere at heart. They just don’t have the belief in themselves to follow their gut. How often do you read the Bible and just skip the parts that don’t make sense? Would a loving God would say or do such a thing like genocide? What about hell for eternity? Torture people for eternity? The love i feel couldn’t do that, and I if God truly is love, he won’t either. Wow, you say the earth moves around the sun? Really? That rocks my whole belief system.
When i left “church” I found God. The same experience of “feeling his presence” is with me. I have peace because i don’t have to live in “fear” of going “outside God’s will”. But i don’t believe the same way in the bible, and I don’t believe in hell. The hardest part was losing friends and community.
I think the people who created this Blog are trying to say the same things Jesus said about Pharisees. These church leaders are keeping the church members, who want more than anything to do the right thing for God, tied up in fear.
My comment about Fruit Cakes was not intended to be mean, but simply in keeping with the spirit of the creators of this blog. I just shake my head and marvel that some people still think that the sun revolves around the earth.
OOPs, Sorry, I did that quote this commet wrong. Sorry. I’ll get the hang of this after a couple more posts… or many not.
I appreciate the comments regarding ACC (See http://www.atlantacitychurch.com). I would like to hear more on the leadership or structure of the church. I didn’t have a good vibe about it the minute I walked in and I haven’t spent a great deal of time there, but in a nutshell my concerns center around:
1. The FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) that seems to exist among anyone who chooses to question anything or leave the church. What? Go where God leads you and be done with it! Real leaders aren’t fearful of this.
2. The intense pressure to bring in new folks.
3. The whole inter-marrying thing (and trust me, at ACC there are far more inter-marriages than there seems to be at the churches you mention). I can’t begin to describe the incestuous nature among the leadership there. It is WEIRD! It seems like all of the pastor’s family/extended family works for the church in some leadership capacity.
4. The guest speakers that come in and people think are marvelous. People seem to question nothing, but believe the guest is great (and come back for more services with the guest) because leadership tells them they are. Say what?! I saw this one dude screaming, yelling and fake crying (boo hoo) in an attempt to get at least one person to come up to the alter. This went on for like 10 minutes before some woman fnally saved us all from continual torment by going forward. That seemed to satisfy the guy and we were finally dismissed. Oh wait — no we weren’t, we had to take up his “love” offering first (which he claimed he never accepted). Sure, Bud.
5. There seems to be a regal importance and a deeper spiritual walk for those who are blessed with their very own “prayer language.” I am not against speaking in tongues. however, if you don’t have that gift, shame on you, you shallow Christian, you! There is just something not right when you see people who can turn on/off speaking in tongues at a moments notice. Oh yeah, and hey, by the way, where’s the interpreter?
6.I am no theologian (of course the education among the pastors there is questionable too!), but God did give me the gift of discernment. There are times when I sit there and think to myself, “HUH?!” Is that really how he interprets that?? And why can’t I interpret it for myself???
7. I am totally for ministering to people who are in trouble — drugs, alcohol, finances, etc. What concerns me is that they thrive on helping those folks but then seem to keep them dependent on ACC. There seems to be a degree of codependence between the broken and ACC. Of course, there are no meetings from outside the community in the facility, such as an AA meeting. They also keep their own food bank versus the excellent one we have on the community that most of the other churches participate in.
8. The internship it seems is the “elite” group in the church. I guess maybe it is if a real education isn’t of value or you don’t have the confidence in believing you can make an impact betond the four walls of ACC. Why does it frighten them that some people are just bigger than those four walls??
9. I think we need to be careful about this gift of “prophecy.” One single lady (attractive in her mid-thirties) told me that it has been “prophesied” that she would meet a Godly man and would get married. Hey, I am no prophet, but I am guessing the odds are pretty darn good that that could happen in her lifetime. Hmmm.
10. Where’s the integrity, dude?? The leadership seems to think it is OK to follow one set of rules, cut corners, even deceive others in authority, but then we are supposed to go to THEM for spiritual discernment?? I think NOT.
11. The pastor moved into a pretty nice house on several acres. Nothing wrong with that I guess but something does not seem right. The land was “donated” and I guess the house was too?
12. Lastly, it also seems weird that a couple of the “pastors” or elders just happen to be extremely wealthy and donated the land to the senior pastor and helped to build his new abode. Fishy.
So, it is pretty clear that my note here must be from “the enemy”. Otherwise, how could I even think about questioning the authority and divine guidance found at ACC? After all, I am just a poor, dumb sinner who doesn’t speak in tongues and who has not been anointed for leadership. Lord, help me please.
Notmykid,
I can’t really argue with any of your points and you articulate them better than me. Many of these things bothered me, too…which is why I left.
Especially the “1,2,3 start praying in your prayer language”. What ever happened to “waiting”. Also, I believe tongues is AN evidence of baptism in the Spirit but not THE only evidence.
How long have you been attending/visiting ACC? I was there for about 10 years and left three years ago.
The recent installation of the wealthy “elite” elders took place after I already left.
The inter-marrying seems to be between a couple of families. It kind of bugged me that just about all of them are also on staff.
Wow, notmykid! That was impressive. Did you perhaps get a bootlegged copy of the MFI manual?
Just one comment on #7: Getting people dependent on the church is only for certain people — those who can be cleaned up easily and quickly contribute (financially of course). If someone has serious troubles, like bipolar, rage disorder, post-traumatic stress, they are dropped. The leaders are really not equipped (or even willing) to handle this level of need.
And that, to me, exposes their spiritual lack. Did not Jesus go to the neediest of society. Didn’t He say that His anointing was for the poor, the prisoner, the one whose life was in ashes?
That’s what happens when you promote “elders” based on their ability to administrate, and not on their spiritual maturity.
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I have attended ACC along with my family for 15 years and what you say about the church is twisted. Our church is very grounded in the word of God and passionate about touching our community. The interns often stay, but have any of you asked them why? They would tell you it’s becuase there is life at our church. I don’t apologize for that. The internship is very intense and is not a “fluff program.” You evidently have never attended any of our classes or programs. I am really sorry that you have such a negative opinion. Something has hurt you and I pray God touch your heart and allow his spirit to heal you. No church is perfect, but ours is growing and thriving and pressing forward into the will of God. We love and honor our pastors as the Bible teaches us to. There’s nothing wrong with that!!!
dear positive influence,
Would you tell John the Baptist that he was just hurt and bitter, and that nobody’s perfect so he should just stop preaching that “repent” message out there in the wilderness (out of a Local Church)?
Just something to think about.
grace
Positive Influence, I attended ACC also for many years. I agree with you that there is a lot of good stuff going on at ACC. The decision to leave for us was heart-breaking due to relationships, many GOOD memories of what God did through the ministry there, etc.
In regard to your comment on the interns staying, I have a few questions for you: Rick has often commented that you should not leave your church over petty issues and that you should be faithful to your church. He laments the fact that people go “church hopping”. I agree with him. Does the same not apply to the interns? By your comment, you seem to be implying that ACC has life and apparently the other churches these interns left to remain at ACC do NOT have life. What quantifies these other churches (which they sent their young people to in good faith that they would return and benefit their home fellowship) as NOT having life? Do they not have “awesome”(TM) worship? Are they not cranking out numbers? Is there lack of hype? OR, are there serious DOCTRINAL issues which would make it IMPERATIVE to leave? If so, why are these churches still MFI affiliated?
I can’t speak for “Notmykid” because I don’t feel exactly the same. I was invested in the ministry there for many years and I love the people there. Was I hurt? Yes. I have to remain obedient to the Lord and trust He will continue to heal me and help me forgive others…because that’s an imperative from the Scriptures!
Our love for our pastors should be no more or no less than the love we have for ANY member in the body of Christ. We are told to SUBMIT to those in authority over us insomuch as THEY are obedient to scripture. We are to respect the man of God for his position, but not ADULATE that man. The MAN is fallible. The God he SERVES is NOT.
To sum up how I feel, a lady named Anna summed this up far better than I could in another post. I feel this post applies to the whole MFI movement in general…not limited to Frank D’s church and not limited to ACC. In fact, this applies to ANY organized church that has replaced pure love for Christ with OTHER things:
No, but I would like to ask him if locust taste like chicken?
‘Scrupe
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Positve Influence:
I actually have NOT been hurt by ACC, but I am trying like crazy to keep my son from being hurt by them. I humbly thank God for the gift of discernment. Actually, God’s grace has protected me and I have not been hurt by any church. I have enjoyed a varied religous journey. Trust me when I tell you that I am A-OK with God, church, etc. I am not, however, surprised that an ACC member would think there must be something broken in my life.
I do, in fact, like very many of the people and ACC and know them to be very “good” people. The problem I have is with the leadership as the 12 points I made in my original post outlined 9and a few others I omitted). You don’t defend any those.
I would like to say that I take no pleasure in making the comments I have made. It is not for sport, but like most of the people who comment here, it is out of a deep concern and conviction that there is some major brainwashing that takes place in MFI churches and authority issues that simply are not Biblically sound.
With all due respect, I will also pray for you and for your family and that the TRUTH will be so evident in your lives that you will know that it is only the voice of GOD that is leading you. I pray He also gives you a spirit of courage and discernment so that you can bravely serve Him and only Him.
I also encourage you to continue reading at this blog. There is a lot of wisdom here and people who truly love the Lord, but can’t sit quietly and accept false doctrine.
1 John 2:26-27: I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true — it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
God bless you.
notmykid said..
Just keep in mind a huge percentage of what goes on here is parody.. think SNL.
Yet there is still a lot of wisdom and insight here also. I would estimate the mean age to be 40+ based on the incidents many people relate, and many of them seasoned Christians, not wet behind the ears and in the puppy love phase of leadership adoration.
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Gotcha! Point well taken.
I do see the wisdom here though as many of the posts are thoughtfully written. My posts have not been parody, because frankly, I am just not that funny.
I fall into that category of seasoned Christians and try to comment (mostly respectfully) from that place. Puppy love is reckless, unreasonable, and far too dangerous for me to place my spiritual security in.
Thanks for the clarification!
Were are you critics coming from. Every orginazition on the planet earth encourages marriage within its own ranks. Try the catholic church which does not recognize marriage outside the church. Be a good dog and find another bone to chew on.
oh puh-leaze. Are you serious?
Is that the only point out of the twelve that you refute?
While I don’t necessarily agree that Catholics should only marry other Catholics, at least there are 1,135,729,000 of them in the world to choose from. I hardly think we can compare Catholicism with ACC.
I would compare the ACC marriages more like a tribal thing — keeping it all in the tribe.
Bow wow.
Your sexual innuendos are not welcome here. This is a family site. Please keep it clean.
Notmykid makes some excellent points. I have attended ACC many times and the body of Christ there is amazingly wonderful. I have met some great folks there. However, Snow is a different story. I have spoken with many,many pastors over the years and I have never had such a distant and weird feeling when speaking with Snow. He seems to always be ‘on’. Always performing. No warm and fuzzy feeling or the warmth that usually exuberates from most pastors.
His sermons made me feel like I do when I accidentily hear Benny Hinn speak and do his healing thing. Like I need a bath. Teaching the bible is one thing but being in a position of influence and adding YOUR spin is quite another. People take a preacher literally, unfortunately. It is a powerful position and a huge responsibility.
Once I asked Snow about his new digs…house and land and he very quickly diverted the conversation away from that topic. He obviously did not want talk about this subject. As it turns out, the house was built by one of the wealthy ‘pastors’ in the church, maybe at cost, and the land was donated by another wealthy ‘pastor’. By the way, what qualifies a person to be called a ‘pastor’? Neither of these ‘contributing ‘pastors’ have formal schooling. So…wealth = ‘pastor’? mmmm. Makes one wonder. All 3 have Harleys too. Maybe it’s a private club thingy.
Why is a pastor so revered? Always wondered. Closer to the preacher…closer to God? He is a paid employee albeit a teacher and a leader. Decisions are made by the body…the tithers via committees. Snow has too much power.
I too have an issue with all the family members involved in that church and that is one of the reasons I left. At last count, 8 members of snow’s family had paying positions at the church.
I also remember going to my first service and they had a coffee stand. I asked for a cup and the guy behind the counter said that will be $1.85. I was floored. Most churches that I have been to offered coffee for free or you made a donation. Never has it been a profit center.
As for the interns…no one has ever gone back to their own churches. The very idea that you have to pay for the opportunity to work for the church is sad. Sad that it offers courses that are not transferrable to any large degree. Most of the interns do the program and never go to college. What a waste. alot of the folks have amazing potential.
I too have witnessed people speaking in tongues at the drop of a hat. That used to make me sick when I was praying aloud in a group. I mean in and out of their ‘language’ and you just knew it was fake.
I hope your kid(notmykid)gets what he/she needs spiritually.
Well LiveforHim, I’m not sure. I spent some time in their church (maybe 6-8 years back?) and he sure seemed genuine at the time. In fact, he used to send me Christmas cards for years (when people like Doug wouldn’t even return a phone call). And when I called him to talk over some financial problems I was having, he was very affirming, and he even sent me a bunch of his tapes and books on the subject right after.
I’m not validating his religion, but merely speaking to his personhood. I have to say he made quite a positive impression on me, but then again that was compared to the abuse I was getting at CBC.
That being said people change (I’m sure he and I would probably not be able to agree on a single subject these days!
While I can see what you are saying, Live, I also have to agree with DBML here regarding Rick’s personality. He’s not a “warm fuzzy” kind of person, but he WAS always available to meet with anyone in the church who asked him, whether someone high up in the “Harley Club” gang or a relative “paeon”. My initial impression of him was that he was cold and inaccessible, however that wasn’t the case.
I’m with you about having so much family on staff by the way. It’s one of those things that just doesn’t “look” right and gives the impression that the church is really a family business rather than a body where leadership giftings of others in the body are utilized. However, I’ve heard from current members that some of Rick’s family members are no longer at ACC. So, the number has dropped down from 8 to about 4 or 5.
I don’t know enough about his personal character to comment, but I have seen him be quite be quite manipulative as the “spiritual authority”. Not cool and definitely difficult to follow if you happen to like integrity.
The pressure is still on to get our son to do the internship — FEAR mode is in high gear — as in, “If you don’t do this, you will surely fail”. How arrogant does it get and how sick is it to live your life in fear mode? Where’s the faith??? How dare they speak that crap into our son’s life!
Some of his family members went off to work with/for a city church in Washington state. That way the pipeline/network is secure.
I agree with notmykid…that spiritual covering/authority stuff is rampant at ACC. Talk about confusing folks. If you have any issues, ie – broken, you are seeking the Lord with ferver and intead of sincere help based on biblical fact/teachings, you get constant sermons on following the pastors blindly not to mention opening your purse/wallet at every turn. No wonder Snow invite Bevere to guest preach at every opportunity. Bevere underscores everything Snow preaches…outside of what the bible teaches us.
Anybody have any comments/information about Snow’s educational background? I just find it a bit like the blind leading the blind.
liveforhim wrote: “for a city church in Washington state..”
liveforhim: I would be interested in what city and address because I live in the same state. Thanks!
Live, I can’t disagree with you there.
The constant preaching on the tithe and being told to “just trust the pastor” are among the reasons why we left. I don’t see people there being encouraged to be Bereans. As I mentioned earlier, it wasn’t always that way….mainly just since ACC came under the MFI covering.
Rick still has some good teachings, but the good messages are lost in the constant “generosity factor” tithe messages and entreaties to givef.
As far as the people of the congregation in general go…by and large wonderful folks. I worry for the young ones, though. I sum this group of youth/college as “zeal without knowledge”. At least, that’s how they were several years ago. So much fervor, but many of them don’t have much biblical knowledge beyond Malachi chapter 3.
They went to work with non other than Judah Smith at his Generation Church. It was Billy Huffman and his wife. The connection gets even stronger…eh?
Live, do you know with certainty that they’re working with Generation Church? I’m pretty much out of the loop since I’ve been away from ACC for some time, but I’d heard that Bill accepted a non-pastoral position at City Church (multi-media, I thought) because he did not feel that it was God’s season for him to continue to be a youth pastor at this time. If he truly felt called to go to Seattle and realized that he wasn’t called (at least at this time) to be a youth pastor at ACC, this is a GOOD thing (IMO) and shows willingness to obey the Lord rather than continuing to fill a position he’s not supposed to be in. For that, I really admire him.
FormerACC…I don’t know what position he took. I just knew he had gone there. I would be curious why he went so far to do that?
[Comment ID #27352 Will Be Quoted Here]
Don’t know. Any assumptions I make would just be speculation and not necessarily fact since I don’t know his heart and the circumstances that led him there.
If I were him, I wouldn’t have gone from one MFI church to another one that is even UN-healthier! YIKES! But, I hope that the Lord will help him draw even closer to Himself and give him wisdom.
Just wanted to let you all know that our son opted NOT to do the ACC internship and he has left ACC! Yea! The process has been gradual and painful for him as he leaves good people he really cares about and faces rejection since he was not “sent” out. He managed the intense pressure (Leadership, including the pastor and an elder, telling him that he will fail, he is doing the wrong thing, and certainly can’t be doing God’s will). Praise God he is OUT now and free to worship elsewhere! The shackles are GONE!
Bill and Jenn went to Seattle because God called them there. Do they need more reason than that? They are amazing pastors. I completed the internship the first year it began. It was definitely challenging, inspiring, and well worth what I paid. I even went on to college afterwards. After college, I got the opportunity to teach a class at the internship and I can assure you they are learning life skills and a Biblical education.
If your child wants to sign up for the internship, I can’t understand why you would have a problem with that. This is an investment in their future. The internship prepares young people for the future. It builds confidece, and it helps individuals learn what they’re good at and what they really has a passion for. I really think you should reconsider.
Notmykid:
I’ll pray for your kid! Glad to hear that he is free to serve elsewhere. You know, it’s hard to leave somewhere where you’ve been invested in the ministry. Leaving can be made even harder because of the undue pressure exerted on you to stay (ie: leaving is out of God’s will, you weren’t released by leadership to leave, etc). I hope he has found a good healthy and non-controlling church in the area in which to grow.
Cherish:
I’m glad to hear that you benefited from the internship. While there are undoubtedly great things about the program, the concerns that many of us have about the internship (not just at ACC, but at other MFI churches ) seem very valid to us. Would you mind answering a few questions since you have an insider’s perspective?
1. Many churches have internship programs for training future potential leaders, but they don’t charge a fee for this. In fact, some interns get a nominal salary for the work they do at the church. I won’t “go the route” of asking you how much you paid for your internship, but….
a. How many actual hours of time at the church/in church ministry were you required or encouraged to spend per week?
b. What specific training did you receive (accreditations, hands-on ministry experience, etc?)
2. A major concern people have is that other churches release their young people to attend these internships only to have them remain at ACC rather than going back to the church that sent them out in good faith.
a. Were you sent out from a different church, or were you already a
member at ACC before you began the program?
b. If you WERE sent from another church originally, did you ever return to your church?
c. What percentage of people in your internship program stayed at ACC rather than going back to their home churches, and what BIBLICAL reason did those staying at ACC have to stay? The reason I ask this is because ACC and other MFI churches speak of strong responsibility to remain at your church despite problems you see within that church because you are basically in a “covenant” relationship with your church, but this perspective does not seem to apply to those remaining at ACC after leaving other churches. Your thoughts?
FormerACCmember wrote:
I skimmed your reply and thought you wrote:
[Comment ID #27527 Will Be Quoted Here]
Let’s HOPE that’s not the case!
Cherish,
I appreciate the thoughts and glad you found what you wanted from the internship. Reconsidering is not an option — trust me. I want no part of anything going on with that leadership there. Fear is NOT a motivator and frankly, I am pretty sure just it p ***** God off. I do pray for the very nice folks who attend ACC.
I am also interested in your responses to FormerACCMember.
FormerACCMember, out of curiousity, I have no idea who you are, but I wonder if you attend a local church now with other former ACC members? Our son is exploring one now and seems to be impressed.
Oh, happy day!
[Comment ID #27532 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think that ACC refugees are scattered pretty much all over Fayette (and even Coweta) counties.
Suffice it to say I’ve visited just about every church in the area and have said hello to many an old acquaintances and friends along the way.
Notmykid, I respect your opinion and admire your concern for you child. How old does a young adult have to be to make their own decisions though? Especially if this a decision that they feel God is calling them to. Just be careful, and don’t underestimate if your son is actually hearing from God.
I would happy to provide some inside insight. This is coming from someone who did the internship, went on to college, and is fulfilling God’s purpose in my life. The internship is very similar to college — The number of hours you put in is what you’re going to get out of it. Everyone is different. Many interns love spending their time at the church. I worked four days a week while I was interning, so I wasn’t necessarily there as much. It’s no secret though, if you are signing up for the internship, it is a HUGE commitment. It is designed that way, and its designed to be life changing, every part of your life.
I learned a lot of lessons that could have only been taught there. I’m a smart student, I’m well behaved, but I definitely had some issues through my mom dying when I was young and just being spoiled. During the internship I had to learn how to say yes ma’am and just do it without asking why. There’s something about a group of young people with the same purpose, with the same goal, focused and determine to be changed, to seek God and discover the purpose for their life. I did receive a degree which I still had on my resume. The degree is really only for students who are interested in going into full time ministry. I am in public relations, so my experience is simply listed as an internship where I study abroad, participated in event planning, and biblical studies. Some of other training experienced during the internship would be leadership, boldness, and discipline.
I was already a member when I first did the internship. I was about to graduate high school when Bill and Jenn told me about the program, and I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to major in. I thought it would be a good experience to take some time out for myself, seek God’s purpose for my life, and just get really grounded before I experience some of the temptations that would be coming in college. A lot of high school graduates aren’t sure what they want to do right when they graduate. I believe the internship is a perfect place for someone to take time and invest in themselves and really learn how to hear the voice of God.
There are some interns that have went back to their church. The program is still young. That says something about the church if the interns like it so much that they want to stay there. They feel valued, they feel like they’re being used. No one tells them they can’t leave!
Because I was in the first class, the majority of the people in my class were already at ACC. If I’m not mistaken, everyone was except one. He was still from GA though. He went his church occasionally.
I understand your concern about various interns not returning home, but I think these young people are old enough to decide where they think God has called them. People that intern for a year, especially two years, are completely different people and maybe the idea of returning home would prevent them from growing. Some interns do return home, some get married and continue to serve at ACC. I’m very close friends with a lot of these individuals, and most of them are very happy with their season of life. Maybe I’m young, and I just don’t see things how some of the other people posting do. The internship, like any program, has benefits and weaknesses. You can’t say there hasn’t been any fruit from this ministry or that God isn’t moving. Don’t judge by just looking on the outside, you’re missing something.
Cherish, I am so glad that the internship worked out for you. I am sure that some of the classes were beneficial. I have attended ACC many times and I have seen, first-hand, the work that the interns do. I would suspect that even your decision was highly influenced by ACC ‘leadership’ under the auspices of it being a God calling. The negative comments made by Snow and others…that it’s ACC or failure is one horrible way to minister to someone who places trust in leadership and, as some have unfortunately done, blind trust.
I would be very interested in knowing the number of interns who went back to their churches. The program must be 4-5 years old(based on you attending the program and then going to college) and that means that 15-20 people have been through it. Yes, the fact that most, if not all, stayed MAY be because they deemed ACC to be great but it may also be because they were pressured to stay. In any event, many who attend church are broken and seek healing and are vulnerable. It is not leadership to take advantage of weakness and pressure people or make them feel like they will fall if they do not remain at your church. Church hopping is no answer but discernment in one’s life is a must and it looks as though NoymyKid’s son has discerned that ACC is not for him. To his credit, he IS attending another church and is seeking to grow/mature in his walk among non-judgemental and encouraging christians.
Cherish, I think it’s ok for interns to stay at ACC. There is something to be said for new wine not being put in old wineskins. And, most youth go off to college and end up living far from home. It’s the way of youth, not just ACC interns.
But, I’d caution you about the Saying Yes Maam and not asking questions. That is NOT healthy. Any leader who won’t allow themselves to be questioned is on a power trip and not worthy of being followed. What makes ANY pastor above being questioned? What are they afraid of from a bleating lamb?
For what it’s worth, I met Mrs. Snow at a conference at my former church. She was very kind to me in a season where my own pastor’s wife was being demeaning. She publicly encouraged me and built me up privately throughout the weekend.
God bless.
Cherish,
Thank you for addressing those concerns and sharing your experience. From what I’ve seen, I’m sure the interns work very hard and want to serve the Lord. However, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with KariMichelle’s concerns:
[Comment ID #27539 Will Be Quoted Here]
Major “red flags” arise with any church that encourages blind obedience. We’re told to TEST ALL things and to be Bereans. It’s part of the learning process.
I’m glad your intern experience was positive, and that you were blessed by your time there. There are (or were….don’t know who all is there after three years) lots of great folks at ACC.
Amen and ditto to LiveforHim, FormerACCMember and KariMichelle!
Without getting into specifics, let’s just say that the leadership behavior is egocentric and was certainly not very Godly in our experience.
And, for the record, there simply isn’t a debate or reconsideration here. He will NOT be attending and he decided that for himself once he discovered the Biblical evidence that totally dismisses the policies and some of the questionable doctrine at ACC. The kid does have a brain that he can use on his own!
Look, Cherish, you gotta do what you gotta do and no one judges you for that (leadership, yes — members, no). All we ask is for the same respect — this is not a fit for us. Leadership needs to back off (to put it nicely, but I do mean it strongly) of our kid.
I don’t mean to be unkind — just want to be firm and clear. God bless you in your journey.
How many of you who went “away” to college, REAL college, returned to your hometown? I would venture a guess as to very few of you. Why should going “away” to a church internship program yield any different results.
It seems like most involved in the internship programs, from the discussions above, are kids just graduating from high school or in the year or 2 after, much like people attending a REAL college. So I would think the rate of return to home after internship at an “away” church would be similar to that of going to a REAL college.
Those of you who have/do attend BT/CBC, look how many of the kids who have attended there are still attending there or have not returned to their “sending” flock… CBC is FULL of pew warmer wannabes.
The marketing for the intern program includes comments about going back to your home church with the newly acquired knowledge/disciplines. The fact is most don’t and are encouraged to remain at ACC/CBC/BT.
With certain connections comes some familiarity.
I would urge caution with Atlanta City Church.
‘nuf said.
I don’t think anyone gets your hidden meaning Word in Time. Ya might wanna elaborate for the group. Go ahead…speak up.
My meaning is as clear as I can make it without saying something I perhaps should not say.
If it were me, I would not send a son/daughter/relative/friend/fellow believe to ACC.
OK, perhaps that is more clear than urging caution, but it is about as clear as I care to make at this point.
You won’t find me taking the risk of remaining around ACC.
word in time said: my meaning is as clear as I can make it without saying something I perhaps should not say.
word in time: thanks for sharing what you have shared; i can appreciate the fact that you don’t want to say too much; nevertheless, by keeping all of your comments so vague and general, i feel that the sense you communicate could seem even worse than if you were to share more; by more, i do not mean that you have to share names, dates or addresses, or specifics but i would appreciate more facts, feelings or IMO observations.
e.g., if you were single and open to meeting someone i knew, if I said “Oh, no! you don’t want to meet that person…don’t ask me why, just trust me that it is in your own best interest to stay as far away from them as possible” how would that make you feel? Or, would you prefer me to say, “Oh, yes, i can introduce you to them, my experience has been that they are very, very shy, but I might be wrong, and too shy for me might not mean too shy for you.”
With the latter approach, i allow you to make up my mind about whether or not you want to meet this person: i don’t make up your mind for you.
Word in Time,
Thank you for sharing as you feel you can. I do agree with David’s comments about sharing and perhaps you will feel inclined to do so.
I am more concerned with your statement[Comment ID #27592 Will Be Quoted Here]. If you are in the process of leaving ACC, please be prepared for the fear, obligation and guilt that will be laid on you. After that comes the shunning. Isn’t it interesting that Christ never shunned anyone?
These are painful things to deal with and very disillusioning. Know that you are in my prayers. Keep your head high and just walk away. Know there are many, many loving churches in the area that do not use these tactics.
In the case of “spiritual authority”, know that you are just as “Christian” as anyone else who has received Christ (including the leaders and long-time Christians). It’s Pharisees who believe they are better than others and who dictiate according to THEIR rules.
I leave you with this: 1 John 2:26-27 — I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within YOU so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true –it is not a lie. So just as he has tuaght you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
God bless you.
In my experience, there hasn’t been any outright shunning, but the phone calls and invitations to dinner did indeed cease. Folks there only have time to fellowship with you if you’re a contributing member of the church. I honestly think this is because people stay SO busy with church that it’s not worth the time or effort to maintain friendships outside the church.
I’d hesitate to use the word “shunning”, though, because when we do run into folks we know, the conversation is friendly (if a bit awkward).
There was only one case of full-blown “shunning” that happened at ACC while I was there, and it was for biblical reasons and presented to the whole congregation beforehand.
That has also been my experience FormerACCmember.
I can understand why I don’t see/interact with those I use to go to church with because church activity makes up a huge part of their daily lives — just as it use to make up a huge part of mine.
People are still friendly/loving when I see them and if their is awkwardness it is because they don’t know how to respond or have no response to my answers to some of their questions (Where do you go to church? What religion is your boyfriend? etc) and I feel that I can’t fault them for that because they have just never learned how to interact with others outside of their tight knit, albeit large, social group. Or if they were taught they have forgotten. I wouldn’t say they are all like that–it is too large a number to say they are all one way…but it is a large portion.
I still have friends who make an active effort to seek me out and spend time with me and any awkwardness that ensues therein I attribute to my own insecurities about how they may feel about my choices.
Perhaps I stand corrected if we are talking about the legalistic definition of “shunning”. Thanks to both of you for pointing that out. I don’t like to mis-speak.
On the other hand, I know of one young man who was interested in coming back to visit ACC but felt uncomfortable due to the way he had departed (it was not that scandulous). An elder was informed of this and said that he could come, but he didn’t know how welcome he would be. When we asked if this elder would call the young man to help him feel more welcome, he declined to do so. Not technically shunning, but certainly not very nice.
What would Jesus do?
Respectfully submitted.
When one leaves a church — or remains and tries to set things right — leadership seems to view them as less spiritual or less Christian.
Not surprisingly, followership follows the leading of leadership.
Not officially shunning, but certainly a form of isolation and humiliation for not being a “team player” either way.
This attitude that God speaks only to/through the leadership seems a bit too much like the priests of the Old Testament days.
…. and at the risk of getting a few of you boys worked up here, this is an observation that I have hesitated to share…….
…..but here it goes…
I noticed that all of the church leadership problems discussed on this board are (gasp) men.
Is that because these churches only allow men to be senior pastors (some of them appear to have men and women as pastors/elders but not SENIOR pastors)?
Or is it some hormonal thing that I just don’t get?
I don’t remember reading any time in the newsabout a woman pastor who was removed due to unbibilical behavior?
I’m not necessarily suggesting anything here, just observing and wondering.
Now, now….. Try to calm down. Settle that rage and try to respond without thumping me with that big ol’ bible. Besides, that’s just not fair! Some of those bigger ones are too heavy for petite people to raise and swing back.
Take a deep breath and………try to answer the question.
notmykid,
I was only letting FormerACCMember know that we shared a similar experience. I know that people are shunned/ignored/alienated/etc in these situations and I don’t think it is right.
Funnily enough the only person who treated me rudely upon my absence from my old church was the senior pastor. I know I am not imagining things as I had a very familial relationship with this man before as I was good friends with his daughter. But he is the only one who acted that way (everyone else was kind and caring albeit occasionally awkward) and I actually feel as though I need to give him more allowance in this situation because I was aware of things going on in his life (his daughter was/is in a similar situation as me and I think seeing the parallels of that may have made it more personal to him than I think it should have been–but I guess who knows really).
It is frustrating to see people behave this way, but I try to remember that I too was once sort of like them. I wasn’t the kind who was vocally judgmental. I actually felt sympathetic toward people but with an attitude of not understanding their actions. I guess I just went along with what everyone else thought and kept my mouth shut even if I had objections–and that is actually true of a lot of my behavior when I was at my old church.
It sounds like shunning to me! If people don’t start getting real about this stuff nothings ever going to change. You can’t change what you won’t acknowledge. But then again that comes with a price.
I totally agree Rhema. I suppose I didn’t make it clear at the end of my statment that I am sorry I didn’t stand up for others or for myself more. Like you said it comes with a price–I saw what it was like for people on the outside and it can be scary and lonely. I didn’t mean that because I kept my mouth shut I was blamless–just that it was my way of not dealing with something I saw to be not good.
I also agree that this behavior is wrong, but I just don’t think that this behavior is deliberate “shunning”. Still, it’s sad to find that many of the friendships you establish in a church are completely contigent upon your remaining in that church.
It’s pretty much human behavior to be uncomfortable around someone who has taken a stand different from whatever you are doing:
The carnivores are uncomfortable around the vegans.
The bottle-feeders are uncomfortable around the BF’s.
The homeschoolers are uncomfortable around the public schoolers.
The republicans are uncomfortable around the … well, everybody.
You get my point. And that uncomfortableness (word?) translates into avoidance. I don’t know that it’s deliberate shunning.
But I found that some who still attend CBC were uncomfortable with me because (to my friends) I was clear about my reasons for leaving.
Another thing to think about is that many friends are situational friends. You are friends because you work together, or are in little league together, or you spend all your time at church together, etc. If you leave the situation, you find out who your true friends are. I don’t think that necessarily equals shunning either.
I agree that shunning occurs. But I would hate to classify normal human behavior as deliberate avoidance.
grace
[Comment ID #27623 Will Be Quoted Here]Well, part of it is surely do to male dominance over the past 1500+ years!
Does this mean you’ve never heard of Amee McPhearson of Foursquare fame?
[Comment ID #27623 Will Be Quoted Here]
(Taking deep breath…)
Good observation, WIT.
I think you hinted at the main reason for it — since the overwhelmingly vast majority, probably something like what…99%?…of SPs are male, then obviously when we read or hear of a Senior Pastor having a problem, no matter what kind, the person having the problem will turn out to be a guy.
But, you also wonder if it is a “hormonal thing,” and I think that also is part of the answer. Maybe it’s simply due to our high testosterone levels, but most men I know (myself included) respond “predictably” when they feel threatened, be it from real or imaginary sources. The sabre-rattling and spur-jingling can be heard for miles around.
This is true especially among younger (in their 20s to early 40s) men, who’ve yet to discover how to respond to situations/perceived threats/competition calmly and rationally. Once they get close to say 50, they seem to respond to life with a bit more of a level head. I know this may sound like a generalization, but I have nevertheless seen this pattern. YMMV
What I hope you’re not implying, though, is that females are somehow morally/ethically/spiritually superior to males because you don’t hear so much about their problems in church circles.
While realizing the truth of the old adage that “The only Irish men who can’t understand women are young men, old men, and men of middle age,” but yet speaking from my own limited experience with them, I can assure you that it has been my observation that women also seem capable of certain “predictable” behavior when threatened — albeit, usually of a slightly different kind than men are — not to mention their fair share of “hormonal” driven behavior, as well
joebib
I like that term (“situational friends”). This makes a good deal of sense.
Heard of an interesting fact the other day…someone who HAD been a member of ACC is going on a mission trip to another country and he sent out letters of support to several people. He had to raise money and get prayer support for the trip, which is in a foreign country. He sent out letters to three churches and several individuals. The churches were ACC and two others that he did not belong to but had where he had given his testimony. He received very generous donations from all the individuals and two out of three churches. ACC did not even respond to his letter. That was pretty hurtful and indicative of how the leadership feels about past members. No letter/phone call at all. The letter was sent to Rick Snow. Did Snow pass the letter by his elder board? I wonder. Do they have a missions committee? I wonder. After all, ACC is an MFI church where there is no ‘real’ accountability. More authoritarian than anything else. When I heard this I was not that surprised. Snow and ACC had an opportunity to, at the very least, show Christian support with even the smallest of donations and/or an ackmowledgement to the young man…personally. They didn’t step up and do the right thing.
LiveforHim,
When I read your sad report, it just reminded me of how I have come to see that since so much of the church is run as a business, structured to bring most benefit to the senior pastor and his staff, the question is always: how will this benefit my ministry?
As in business, the goal is to increase one’s own market share at the expense of others. If people leave your business and go to work for a competitor’s, then one has no more use for them. Since they can no longer be used to promote the senior pastor’s vision and ministry, they are ignored or punished rather than praised. I believe that there are some exceptions to this, but what I have seen in my limited experience is that the more that a local church or believing community becomes like a business, the more cold-hearted the entire organization becomes from the top down.
Such cold-heartedness is one clear sign that God is not pleased with this business-oriented direction in the church since it too much of the time does not actively promote Christian love.
The apostle John actually would associate demonic influence to a lack of love in Christians’ lives:
“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another…” I John 3:10-11, NKJV
When I attended PBC, I was taught that the local church (as it was understood by Bible Temple) was the only legitimate instrument to extend the kingdom of God. I have since come to see that such a narrow and self-serving definition of the church and the kingdom of God is, when taken by itself, actually demonic whenver it does not actively promote the love of the brotherhood.
[Comment ID #29252 Will Be Quoted Here]
Sorry that you don’t seem to get all the facts before posting such things. We get TONS of letters all the time for support at ACC and no one could support them all. Most of the team is from ACC and most of their support was raised within our church. Also, Pastor Snow had the team come for all three services for prayer. It was very powerful! And afterall, if given a choice, would the young man you are referring to – which I happen to know who you are speaking about – prefer prayer or money? His teammates who are still in our church, received both. But shouldn’t HIS church have the opportunity to sow into this young man as we did the ACC guys? YES! That’s biblical.
Also, we have a missions commitee and have 4 teams going out in 2008 that are established. We also support several missionaries.
So before you hear one side of the story and spread lies about my church -remember there more than just one side and ACC has done nothing wrong.
[Comment ID #29262 Will Be Quoted Here]
Prayer IS awesome! The facts are that the majority of guys going on this trip are NOT from ACC and there are no spreading of lies lies from my end but rather facts and questions if you read my comments again but nonetheless…the point of my remarks were the lack of acknowledgement of any kind personally and the shunning that this individual feels from ACC. If you know this young man and now you know how he feels, perhaps YOU should step up and take the bull by the horns and reach out to him and speak to Snow. THAT would be a very good thing. Your comment re HIS church kinda underscrores the shunning that I referred to earlier. Again, a church that he did not attend CALLED him, gave him prayer and monetary support. That was class…with or without any donation. The shunning is evident and Snow knows it, endorses it and perpetuates that level of thinking. That IS sad. Perhaps he needs a course in human relations, etiquette or human relations. Oh wait….there are lessons in the Bible on each of these that he can get for free.
All Acc post:
Personally I wwould like to say I recently graduated from the internship program this past june from my second year. i have attended ACC for almost 10 yrs and i have never once wanted to leave. To everyones concerns with the internship program no we all do not marry once we are done and no we do not all stay @ ACC. The reasson it seems like all interns marry into our church because a mjority of the City interns prior into entering the program we’re already dating someone at the church and once you are an intern everyone knows you due to your service…so it seems that way but it is completly untrue and secondly Pastor Snow nor the church leadership does not allow any intern to stay at our church from out of state unless they have spoken to there church pastor and they feel it is okay to release them. Pastor snow had said it over and over again he does not want to take anyone from there church and he does not but being an intern i have spoekn with others from out of state and they feel God has called them to be away for a season , not to live here forever but for a moment to gain more training becuase you defiently do not learn everything withint a one or 2 yr experience and not every intern stays we have had numerous interns who come out of state go home to there church and if it feels or seems like amjority of them do stay that is due to them alreayd attending our church prior to the program but no one realizes they go to our church due to the fact becuase it is such a large church… so to everyone out there , there is no reasson to speak things that you have no idea about nore judge our church to things you do not know, so i ask that before you make a statement to think…and not judge.
blessings
That's the problem. You want to spend your entire life living in the safety of your church. This way you can go through your whole life without ever really having to meet anyone.
[Comment ID #29519 Will Be Quoted Here]
Worst. Sentence. Ever.
Why Locutus, are you suggesting that the time and money spent on doing a church internship would have been better spent on something like, say, classes on spelling, grammar, literature and creative writing?
To comment on all of you i think you have nothing going on in your lives and in order to make it interesting you attack a church that is thriving in our community. If you have any more isssues with my church you can call and speak with Pastor Rick (deleted) And the reasson i did the internship was becuase God called me to and i didn't do it to stay in my own walls i just recently got back from a 3 month mission trip from Guyana. And i know God has called me to the nations not to just stay in my own church…. so blessings
Ninney: I deleted your pastor’s phone number because I doubt he wants it posted on a blog that is critical of him. But I appreciate your sincerity.
it’s actuall the church phone number not his i am not the thoughtless
You are not the thoughtless…what? Would you mind finishing that statement?
Maybe Ninney should send his post to the Bulwer-Lytton contest site for possible submission.
Actually, Ninney, I’m just teasing you. I would tell my daughter the same thing if she wrote a sentence like that!
About your post: when you have time to think about it, consider this: a church is like a family. When we are kids, we accept things. But when we get older, we begin to see the ways in which our family was strong, and the ways in which it could use improvement. If things were truly dysfunctional, we can decide to confront or at least change our own patterns so that we do not continue the dysfunction.
This blog is a discussion from those who have taken that step to evaluate their church families and have seen where things were not right. I hope you can understand that.
grace
Very well put Grace.
I understand that we can evaluate our family , but evaluating and judging are 2 different things. I think the majority of people here on this site need to get there facts correct before they get offended and believe that our church is horrible. I am not saying we are perfect but what church is, every church does have there issues but that is not up to old member or people who have never set foot in our building to discuss!
Why would people spend their time bashing a church that is making a difference in the lives of many men and women? I sit in the congregation and see men and women who were lost in the web of addictions and are changed with the support of the elders of this church. If you have a problem with ACC, maybe you have overlooked that ACC is helping other people within the community and overseas to make a difference for Christ. Maybe if we focused on someone else for a moment and not ourselves, we would be able to see ACC, and any other church that is defamated, in such a much clearer light. If the church has imperfections, maybe it is because it is run by imperfect people. May he who has no sin, cast the first stone. Any takers?
[Comment ID #26176 Will Be Quoted Here]
You don’t know what you are talking about. There are elders in the church who truly lay their lives down to selflessly help someone else that is in need and wants to see them change and grow in a life with Christ. The problem is probably that they do not boast about it and that is why you are making assumptions. So why don’t you just trust that Christ knows what He is doing at ACC as I will that He knows what you are doing in your life.
Ninney… It is important for us to know the difference between evaluating and judging — even though the word “judge” is used for both in English translations.
Scripturally, we are instructed to evaluate, and if we see things that are seriously awry, we can echo Paul who said (very publicly), “Brethren, these ought not to be!!”
But it is NOT our job to THE Judge and carry it further into sentencing and carrying out punishment.
Light Bright… I have not been to ACC. According to those who have (“FormerACCmember” and “notmykid”), the church seems very similar to those in the Pacific Northwest that I am familiar with. So I made an assumption and spoke from that place. For that, I am sorry.
But I also need to say this: doing good things does not exempt a church from correction. To the church of Ephesus, Jesus was very pointed about this in Revelation 2. In fact, all the good stuff in the world would not keep them from having their lamp removed if they did not make the correction.
grace
Correction comes to change one person’s actions. However, as long as we stay on this blog site and critique, or “correct / evaluate”, without taking the matter to the person we are obviously not “correcting”. In middle school, I called that gossiping.
I do appreciate your apology. Thank you.
When a pastor manipulates his congregation into giving him money, he is a bad pastor. When he cloaks that message in Christ’s love, he is a despicable person. My only hope is that this blog will keep more people from being deceived by Pastor Rick Snow.
First let me say that I am sorry to hear many of the people have been hurt by individuals in the ACC/City Church environment. Your pain and concerns are very real to you, and no one can take your failed/hurtful experiences from you. However, may I ask what happened to the part of the bible where it tells every man (no gender there) to take his offense to his brother? The internet has made it so easy to hide behind a screen name.
Yes, although Pastor Rick may seem distant at times, his door/phone is always open to those with a concern. If you present your concerns with tact instead of anger you may be able to provide a perspective that may have previously been unchartered waters.
For all those who have not been involved in ACC, please before you are given away to other people’s hurt/bitterness you can visit the church for yourself and form your own opinion. You can also find the entire ACC message archive (includes staff and guest Pastor messages) and the office phone number at http://www.atlantacitychurch.com.
Also let me say this. All I know is I came to this church in desperate need of a renewed relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the atmosphere at ACC provided me exactly what I needed.
I hope this message helps someone in some way.
Thanks for your comments Onestar. I have been to ACC and initially was so excited to be there The praise/worship is great! The ‘body’ is great. I loved the interaction.
After about a year I started to feel that things were not as they should be in a church. I saw mild signs of a kind of dictatorship where there was way too much reverence toward one person…Rick Snow. I also began to notice that he made a point of pointing the light on himself. For example, he mentioned that he was in the top percentage of tithers at ACC and on another occasion he mentioned that ‘he’ started another church. I began to notice that he loved the spotlight. I found that disturbing. When he played in the band, he would signal to the sound man to turn ‘him’ up.
And then my eyes opened to alot of false speaking in tongues…on demand/request. That was way disturbing.
I left because I didn’t feel that this particular church’s leadership was acting in the very best interest of the body. I felt that the monetary decisions were made by people that were influenced by Snow. The pastor works for the church and the body…not the other way around. In churches where there is a denomination such as methodist, baptist, Lutheran, etc., there are financial committees, pastor/staff committees, etc and then there are governing bodies. All of theses are designed to monitor, make informed decisions, hire, fire, etc. I had the very distinct feeling that there was very little of this going on at ACC. Alot of the decisions are made by ‘elders’…and there are few of them.
I read the information on the MFI website and they do not govern or oversee.
So…I realized that I did not have to give any more money to the Lord through ACC and chose to move to a church where the focus in NOT so much on one individual and more on God. Where people realize that there needs to be independent oversight and where the Lord hears our praise, as well.
Now, if you think that things at ACC would change if a few people meet with Snow…that’s wishful thinking. Things change when a large number of people cause change. Consider this an editorial….
Live for Him,
There are a few things I would like to hear your perspective on concerning your last post. The first is based on your experience at ACC, is it your belief that the leadership is abusive with the finances of the church? If so, what tangible experience can you speak of? The next question is does a church have to have “church oversight” to be considered acceptable?
Also, your “distinct feeling” about decision making at ACC is simply that. We need to be careful about feelings for they can cause us to make poor decisions, hear me when I say that I am not referring specifically to you. Other than relying on feelings, we need to be provoked to action by the Holy Spirit then we will know that everything will work in our favor
The issue concerning the “I/me” factor with Pastor Rick, I have not seen. Yes it is true that I have been in a worship service where Pastor Rick speaks on him being a tither and that he gives above what is required. Where you see a person exalting himself, I see a Pastor showing his heart to the people and saying “hey I don’t just preach the book, I live it as well” and encourage us all to do the same in every aspect of life, not just with tithing or the greater picture of generosity.
Your comment concerning the Pastor working for the church (structured organization) is a common biblically unsound belief. Although the Pastor serves the body, he is an under shepherd of Christ alone. Now hear me in this Pastor Rick is simply a man, and he has flaws just like you and I. Although he is under the supervision of the Holy Spirit he may sometimes “miss the mark”, he will be the first to say this in front of any stranger, or congregation including the one he cares for. A man that was power hungry, or in need of more attention would play himself off to be superman, and flawless. His transparency speaks for his character. In a situation of flawed character where his departure from Senior Pastor would be necessary, Pastor Rick would humbly step down for the sake of the cause- no questions about it.
As believers we all know that there is truly only one Body of Christ, and every part has its function. When and if God strategically place us where we belong and we learn our purpose then it’s easier to learn the vision/heart of the Pastor notwithstanding conflict. The problem occurs when we are out of place and come to the House of the Lord with hidden motives/purposes. Not saying you didn’t belong at ACC because you still may, but everyone has their place.
By the way, ACC preaches and enforces change. In fact, the catch phrase for Immersed 08 (Youth/Young Adult Conference) is “Everything is Going to Change.
Sorry forgot one other important thing. You said,
And then my eyes opened to a lot of false speaking in tongues…on demand/request. That was way disturbing.
Where do you get the perception that this is a false practice? I encourage you to read 1 Corinthians 14 for clarity on this. Anytime someone goes before the church and speaks in tongues (which are very rare) there is someone to interpret.
When you make the choice to pray, you freely do so correct? It is the same thing with praying/speaking in tongues you have to choose to do so. This is just a brief explanation, hope it helps.
Dear Cat and RP, Someday it would be nice to expand your FAQ to include the answers to such comments as:
(1) You are so hurt, you poor things — striking out blindly in your pain.
(2) Before you criticize these leaders publicly, you must go to them personally.
(3) Every leader is appointed by God, therefore they are exempt from human evaluation — Do not touch God’s annointed!
(4) Satan is the accuser of the brethren, so when you accuse a leader of any wrong-doing, you are just satan’s pawn.
(5) Don’t you have anything better to do than sit around criticizing people who are attempting to do God’s work?
And of course you did answer (6) Why are you so bitter?
I’m sure there are others, but this seems to cover the majority of objections. It seems that new people read the blog, and then respond in one of these 6 ways. On another blog I found, the owners were tired of answering the same similar questions and finally made people read their FAQ before they could post.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Anna:
You’re right. We do need to update our FAQ’s. I’ll talk to JP about it.
-Justin
I’d like to he’p ya with the answers, Cat.
We’re not blind! If we were, the blog would be in braille, dumbass.
You mean like you personally came to us, dumbass?
We have no plans to touch your leaders – in fact – we’re trying to get as far away from them as we can.
You know, if you say “Satan’s pawn” really fast, it sounds like “Satan’s spawn”. Try it, it’s fun!
Actually, no. The most recent “Bachelor” was completely lame and thanks to “Dancing with the Stars” everywhere I turn there’s Donny and Marie Osmond on TV again. So we criticize people because we have nothing better to do.
First, let’s define bitter.
Main Entry: 1 bit·ter Pronunciation: \ˈbi-tər\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English biter; akin to Old High German bittar bitter, Old English bītan to bite — more at bite
Date: before 12th century
1 a: being or inducing the one of the four basic taste sensations that is peculiarly acrid, astringent, or disagreeable and suggestive of an infusion of hops — compare salt, sour, sweet.
And now to answer your question: It’s the beer.
[Comment ID #27521 Will Be Quoted Here]
Way to go, Cherish. It’s interesting how people crticize what they don’t know. The young man they are referring to is a precious young man and I am sorry that his parents feel so strongly about this. I have seen so many WONDERFUL young people emerge out of the ranks of this program – in fact you are one of them. I miss you! PK
[Comment ID #29950 Will Be Quoted Here]
Positive influence….no one said a thing about the kids involved in the program. All of the comments surrounded the leadership CHARGING people to work for the church and the kids coming out with little or no credits to transfer to a college. Again, no one has commented about the kids. Don’t call it an internship…maybe just a school??
[Comment ID #29252 Will Be Quoted Here]
To speak on the missions trip i have been on several missions trips also i do currently attend acc and have for 9 years.
Our missions board does support some missionarys depending on how they are lead, for your info , we do not have a large missions fund nor can we support every missionary out there, my recent missions trip i was not supported by the church itself financially yes pastor did speak to the congregation 3 days prior to me leaving and asked them to please consider and pray and give if they feel led which helped alot. But another thing to be said our church is not going to give to just anyone, just becuase you think they should. we do give alot of money into the community so much of the face they we ran out of benevolance money. So please befor you post know all of your facts.
[Comment ID #30059 Will Be Quoted Here]
I am a Graduate intern from the City Interns program and it is very much a college.
I worked very hard thats for sure in my studys and in interning, to comment on transfering credits the college i am attending now ashford university accepted all of my credits, as well as les univeristy accepts them.
I have been very sucessful after my graduation considering i just got back in the country from Guyana for a three month trip that was set up after i graduated as well as i got hired on to work in a print shop from a family in our church and i am going forward in my education. The internship program completly transformed my life, so no one can put down a program prior to knowing any info or facts of it!
Am I missing some obvious sarcasm here? Between your horrible grammar and spelling I honestly cannot tell if you are kidding (making fun of the interns), or just incredibly clueless. If you’re poking some fun, good job I guess. If you’re serious…. uhm, good job defending your “school” dude. Delicious.
Ninney? Interesting name, thanks for another ‘guffaw’!
[Comment ID #30068 Will Be Quoted Here]
Read the comments again Ninney. The fact is that several churches that this man never attended contacted him, in writing, and gave their support in the form of prayer and also chose to support him financially. They responded to his letter asking for prayer. I think that ACC, where he attended, could have spared $100.00 or less as a gesture of support. It was painfully obvious that Snow/ACC did not want to support him or he would have contacted him….personally.
[Comment ID #30072 Will Be Quoted Here]
I completly disagree with you, considering the fact that our church is not small and we do get many of these letters does not mean our church must support everyone. My church did not even give me money from there account for my mission trip but that doesn’t mean i turned back on them. Also why is it your business to this man not recieving money from our church we should not pick up others offenses.
Pastor snow also does not have time to contact all the people of the letters he recieves.
[Comment ID #30070 Will Be Quoted Here]
I personally think that none of you understand anything about atlanta city church. I challange each of you if you have an issue to eigther contact ACC or call the church offices and find out more information becuase apparently none of you understand what God has done in ACC and in the surrounding community!
Sounds like we would have more success contacting you (I still can’t tell if you’re trolling here).
No offense, but of more concern to me is that while claiming to have a attended a superior institution, you seem to have regressed to a pre-secondary level of education.
If you were trying to convince some doubting parents I’d suggest at least using a spell checker.
But whatever.
Unlike (I presume) most of the NW oriented MFI type folks around here (I went to CC and CBC), I actually did spend quite a bit of time in Atlanta. I even got a guided tour of the Coke museum by Mr. Snow. To be honest I’ve always liked him as a person. I’ll take your challenge to “look around” however. Been there, done that. I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you.
Cheers.
I was looking for ACC’s website and found this…
I did not know that ACC could be of such interest to folks. Our family was a part of ACC in the mid eighties, was gone from GA for 10 years, and then was part of ACC again after we moved back in the mid nineties. We have since moved to a church closer to our home. We have known the Snows and the ACC family for more than 20 years.
My husband & I moved several times over the last 30 years due to work and school. We have attended a variety of churches. There have been differences between our beliefs and the different churches over the years. The main question to ask yourself and to determine is whether the things in question are due to just a different way of doing things or due to serious doctrinal issues [ie: Jesus is the Son of God and they say he's not (doctrinal) or you don't like the usher moving you after you've chosen your seat (preference)]. Once you’ve determined why the differences exist, make your decision to leave or stay.
As for those who are not happy with ACC or any church, one needs to be careful with one’s words. For those who trash churches, they need to examine why they are unhappy, and why they feel a need to belittle and berate a church. God is perfectly capable of dealing with churches and organizations in His name – and he will. And He will deal with us as individuals as well.
In response to all the comments read, yes ACC has changed, but then so has every church and person I have known in these same number of years. And every church, just as every organization has problems and shortcomings as the church, the leadership and congregation, are people – human and prone to falling short.
I have a good friend whose child has just completed a two-year internship with ACC. As with any organization that has an internship program, the church or organization and the intern develop a relationship and the leadership would, understandably, want the interns to stay and be part of the ministry. She returned home, as she knew from God that she was to be there only for the time of the internship. Some of her fellow interns chose to stay and be part of that ministry. So it is up to each intern to hear from God for himself or herself as to whether to stay upon completion of the internship, or to return home.
As for a decision to attend ACC or participate in their internship program, the ultimate source to ask about making a decision is to ask God. Ask God for direction. And for the child wishing to intern at ACC (this may be a moot point by now), I suggest that the parent again go to God and ask for God’s wisdom and discernment for the child (I would assume that the child in question was 18 & an adult) and allow God to work in their child’s life. Great wisdom was given to me when my children were babes in arms: When children are young, parenting is hands on; when children are grown, it is on knees.
B
PS: We left ACC on good terms and as occasions permit, maintain contact with our friends.
There was alot of prayer concerning attending the intern program and the message that God sent was to not attend.
B…In many cases, people are in a pit and they turn to the church for comfort and healing. They get in a situation of feeling good in the company of those who are comforting. That is what the body of a church does. We extend love to our brothers and sisters. Unfortunately, so many of these hurting folks place way too much faith in the leadership of a church and blindly. That can be damaging as evidenced by the thousands that have experienced the Bakker’s, the Swaggert’s, the Tilton’s, etc. There is a huge difference in one’s belief/trust in God and having complete trust in the church’s leadership. That is why there is a place for accountability, oversight, discernment and just plain being smart. God will take care of those that mislead but in the meantime people’s lives are manipulated.
Currently, many of the televangelists are being asked to show some financial records. Accountability is good. A multi-million dollar condo in Trump tower is not a good way to spend the Lord’s money and neither is a $23,000 toilet or a rolls royce. That is financial irresponsibility and it’s wrong. Manipulating people’s minds to ‘YOUR’ interpretation of the bible is so much worse. Alot of the comments on this website are from very strong believers who do not want others to be hurt…financially or otherwise.
Hello! Anyone want the truth? hmmmm…
I didn’t think so. Oh, well….Have a great life.
I love the truth.
Susie— The truth is the best…
The TRUTH shall set you FREE…
Please enlighten us… whoever you are …
The Truth shall MAKE you free…
I’m married to the man you are “discussing”…or should I say, “railing”, or “gossiping about”.
[Comment ID #30436 Will Be Quoted Here]
The truth is your husband uses the message of Christ to manipulate people out of their money. You both should be ashamed of yourselves.
Have a wonderful life! May the purposes of God be fulfilled in your lives. Blessings to all!
Rom. 1:16
1 Tim. 6:4
Gal. 1:3
[Comment ID #30438 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thank you, Susie.
1 Tim. 6:10
Catalyst, what great gifts God has given you of thought and intellect and communication. I think that when you are older and wiser you will, like me, look back and regret how you have misused these gifts. As an academic/ intellectual, I too fell into the self-important, arrogant condescension that I see in your words. I am thankful for God’s mercy that humbled me and removed me from our great army of the well-meaning hurt and wounded – in every denomination, in every country. The evidence of Jesus in our lives is His healing of our wounds, and our desire to serve, and love, and lay down our lives for our enemies – even if we believe they are the leaders of our local church.
Fair enough. But I must ask, how then are we supposed to stand up to evil.
I find it very interesting that Evangelists twist the bible to serve as a means of protection from people who would question their methods/intentions. Must be nice to serve in a profession where there is immunity for failure to perform. “Do not question authority” is their mantra. That’s hogwash. NO ONE here questions God and His ultimate authority. Just because you call yourself a preacher does not give license to manipulate or twist scripture and lead people on. Living ‘The Life’ is hard because we are human but God’s message is so plain. Lead them to Jesus, it’s that simple.
If people SERVED each other…really served in the purest sense in lieu of a monetary tithe to the church, that would make a huge difference in the world and God would be so proud of us. Turning to your brothers and sisters and aiding them with your income by feeding them, helping them pay their bills, providing jobs and housing them versus looking for ways to build a bigger church. No coffee klatches, no fancy professional videos, no cross country trips(a la Jentezen Franklin), no cross country trips from Atlanta to Seattle to ‘guest’ preach, …just help each other.
It makes me ill to see these mega churches and all of God’s money spent to have elaborate sound systems, video systems, stage props, etc. when that money could be used to do so much MORE for God’s kingdom. You can lead people to Christ in a barn with folding chairs and a megaphone.
[Comment ID #30446 Will Be Quoted Here]
I believe that the first step is to make sure it IS evil that you are fighting, and then, that you are not trying to fight evil with evil.
When a person is wounded in any human relationship – marriage, in the church, in politics – there is a tendency to view every subsequent exchange through a filter of mistrust and judgment. Every act by the perceived perpetrator – good, bad, or completely random – is suspiciously dissected and usually interpreted as negative and dangerous. When we are hurt, we lose our objectivity, and in taking up the cause for justice, we ourselves become agents of destruction. We can truly believe that we are standing up for the weak and helpless, when all we are doing is self-indulgently venting our own personal anger. It’s a powerful drug – that wonderfully, seductively, satisfying feeling of being “right†and justified in my outrage… This is very clearly seen in some of the posts in this blog and it is a natural human response. But Jesus taught us a different way to live. As we walk with Him, we are humbled to discover that we know a whole lot less than we thought we knew, that we have wrongly judged many people we had neatly pigeon-holed, and that few of us are as intentionally evil as we once made each other out to be.
Oh, it’s evil. I know that for sure. He’s using the message of Christ for his own personal wealth. It doesn’t get much more despicable than that.
I don’t know Rick Snow. So I have no hard feeling toward him. I just think someone needs to tell him he is acting immorally. I’m not sure how you do that, if you can’t confront people.
FWIW, Christ did get angry once. It was in the church when he was confronting the pharisees for turning His house of worship into a marketplace. You do see the similarities, I hope.
Ok Cat/LiveForHim:
I was determined to remain silent on this for two reasons…
The first is that the only TRUE defender Christ needs is Christ alone. However, I will not be ashamed of the Gospel in which I proclaim. I find it sad that some Christians can find noting better to do than persecute his/her fellow man. (Yes I even call you Christians, even though that is a God/You thing) However, one must ask… when defamation of character comes into play, you play a game of Russian roulette in the realm of the Spirit. Especially when you have zero proof of any of your accusations (of which none are true).
Cat said,
Oh, it’s evil. I know that for sure. He’s using the message of Christ for his own personal wealth. It doesn’t get much more despicable than that.
The bible says touch not my Anointed. Not that you didn’t know this, but you have been reminded! (Or can you play God and say who has His anointing…)
I find it appalling that you can talk to/about God’s under shepherds in such a way.
The second reason is LiveForHim if you remember about two months ago I presented you with several questions concerning the finances at Atlanta City Church that you never answered. Please take this time to answer them now.
Onestar, we are all so glad that you spoke up. Just because someone has the title of ‘Pastor’ in front of their name does not mean that they have been anointed. You seem to have the same flavor of thought as those that would cause fear, obligation and guilt. Look beyond the interpretations as presented by those that would lead you astray and ask for discernment for yourself.
God’s shepherds? Who says?
I tried to rack my brain to figure out why you emphasized “Make” and I can’t figure it out! Enlighten me please?
On a sidenote of opinion, if at least 50% of ppl writing on here are still Christians who believe in the Bible, please back your opinions up with scripture. I see often great biblical points, but no scripture (and also unbiblical points too)…. I want to find truth. If you don’t know that bible, maybe you should consider reading it before forming concrete opinions on biblical matters (Disclaimer: I am a biblical literature major).
Just a suggestion.
Shalom
[Comment ID #30453 Will Be Quoted Here]
This is a very serious charge you make against this man. Do you have evidence that what you claim is true? Would the evidence you have stand up in a court of law?
LiveForHim:
For some reason you have the understanding that I have not made my own interpretations concerning this situation. It is not my job to instill fear in you nor will I try. I only quoted to you the Word of God as it is written in correct context. If you are experiencing any type of fear at this point let it not be on my account. When I saw under shepherd of God we both know what I am referring to so let’s not play that game. He placed Pastor’s in this world that you (and I) may hear the TRUTH of His Gospel. Or are you one of those people that believe that you don’t need/want a Pastor to tell/teach you anything, and find yourself “church hoping ” because the flavor of the Month has lost it’s taste (because they not doing everything the way you think it should be done) and the bubble yum is no longer tasty…
I do however agree that just because you have “Pastor” in front of your name doesn’t make you anointed…
Again, do you have the power to saw if a Man/Woman of God has been anointed or not?
By the way you never answered my question…avoided for another post I see.
As far as Jesus becoming angry is concerned … for the past two thousand years, we Christians have called the “other camp” pharisees and used this to justify our own bad behavior. Constructive dialogue is possible only when we are able to humbly present our perspective, staying with the specifics and with the facts, rather than name-calling and emotive generalizations.
Good grief, my dear blogfellows! We are confronted once again with the same accusations. I swear there must be an MFI instruction manual somewhere for how to answer those who question church leadership.
#1 — You must be bitter and are lashing out. This completely ignores the issue at hand which is: is the doctrine taught at _____ church biblical?
#2 — Touch not God’s annointed! First of all, that is not an accurate rendering of the specific verse or situation. Second, it assumes that anyone who puts on a “pastor” hat is annointed.
#3 — You must not judge! God will do it. This is a very handy way of excusing all false teaching and unbiblical behavior — even though the apostles taught us to evaluate teaching and act accordingly.
As I have said before, I am not familiar at all with ACC. That is not the point of my post. I am simply trying to eliminate the familiar accusations so that the true subject can be discussed.
[Comment ID #30462 Will Be Quoted Here]
Anna, help me understand what the “true subject” is here. As far as I can see, there have been some broad, unsubstantiated claims made against Atlanta City Church and its leadership, but I haven’t read one logical doctrinal critique thus far. It is no wonder that you are getting the same “accusations” in response. I rather suspect the “instruction manual” your blogfellows are relying upon is called “the bible”…
FF said:
As I understand it, the original question was asking for information about ACC because a young man was considering internship there.
In the course of 135 posts (meandering down several bunny trails as they do) some people:
– observed strategies that are very “business-like” in ACC’s attempt to advance to the Kingdom
– were concerned about the strong authority/covering doctrine
– noticed promotions among the leadership family
– included ACC as a place where the preaching manipulates people into giving money
– observed a pastor/king type of leadership system
All these observations, if true, would indicate specific doctrinal beliefs. Some people affirmed them, some refuted them, occasionally noting the core belief, but usually in the context of ACC.
To say to those who are concerned about these observations that they are simply bitter, out of place or judgmental does not really address the subjects.
Haha… it does seem we have been having the same arguments for the last three years. The crux of the issue seems to be how you view the pastor. And if you view him as infallible, then he can never be wrong. And thus all criticism of the pastor is sinful.
[Comment ID #30464 Will Be Quoted Here]
Anna/Cat:
First of all Anna you need to study a bit more concerning Gods anointed and his prophets. The scripture is in complete context. I encourage you to read 1 Chronicles 16:7-36. This speaks of Gods anointed people going out and doing His work/will. Therefore applies to the man/woman of God also doing His work. If He defended the people then, how much more will he protect us now?
I don’t care how you look at it, or try to cover it up. You have been and continue to attack the Leadership/Staff of ACC even though you know nothing about it (the sad part is that you continue to say this in your posts…).
When you make statements such as “Oh I know it is evil…” (Cat). Or “ACC manipulates people out of their money..” (Anna). That is a blatant attack. When you say a person is being manipulative, you indicate a character flaw, and that the means of gain are insidious.
So again if you know nothing about the church, then stop attacking it….
As far as the “business like” comment go please let me know exactly what you are talking about there before I jump on that puppy.
Oh by the way LiveForHim I am still waiting on your reply…. It’s the least you can do.
By the way, I never listed or spoke of Pastor Snow as infallible. He is a man just as you and I. If you look at some of my previous posts in this thread you will see that Pastor Snow speaks of his flaws, and has no shame in saying he is far from perfect. Check the history.
Remind me again Onestar. I’ll be happy to give you a reply.
Onestar..refresh my memory.
Catalyst, you can’t say who has God’s anointing, but it seems others can.
In other words, they can say someone IS anointed, but you can’t say they are NOT.
[Comment ID #29559 Will Be Quoted Here]
[Comment ID #29561 Will Be Quoted Here]
These are the two previous unanswerd posts.
Sure Pope….
This is just a smoke screen (a failed one I may add) on your part to diffuse the fact that these men/women of God are under attack by your system without cause. Still doesn’t answer the previous post.
Also, until you take part in the ministry of ACC you can’t judge the Spirit that lives within the Church.
I can however tell you that the Spirit that lives within me bears witness with the Spirit of the Living God found within the Leadership and Ministries of ACC.
Onestar, I am so sorry that I miserably failed to make my point.
I attempted to get the conversation back on the issues that OTHER people (not me) had raised, using phrases that had been written by them.
I also attempted to demonstrate a pernicious pattern of deflection and accusation when issues such as these are raised.
I see that I was unsuccessful and so I apologize for my lack of clarity.
Thank you for the Scripture passage. I have read through it once again and will meditate upon its meaning.
grace
Anna said:
“I also attempted to demonstrate a pernicious pattern of deflection and accusation when issues such as these are raised.”
One of three things happened here. You admit harmful intent, you were being sarcastic, or there is a misunderstanding concerning your statement on my part. Which is it, that I may know how to continue this conversation?
Onestar,
Would you please define for us all what qualifies someone as “God’s Anointed”. I personally don’t believe that you will be able to give a clear definition…which will change this debate rather quickly.
And this is not just a smoke screen, this is an attempt to reply to one of the issues YOU raised against CBC.
Onestar,
I do not admit to harmful intent, nor am I being sarcastic. So there must be a misunderstanding.
This is the pattern I perceive: An issue is raised regarding the doctrine or practice of a church leader. Rather than discuss the issue directly, either (1) the emotional state of the issue-raiser becomes the topic of converstation or (2) a taboo against evaluating leaders is invoked or (3) the issue-raisers method of questioning is condemned.
Therefore, the original issue is ignored and the issue-raiser is called upon to defend his/her emotional health and biblical understandings. Thus the leader continues to be insulated from all honest questioning.
I do not know how I can make this any more clear.
Anna:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, nor was it my intent to attack you if it came off that way.
I see the points that you are attempting to make, however, you have to be careful in the manner you do this. There is a big difference between evaluating someone (not just leaders), and attacking their character. The manner you were presenting your concerns/arguments can easily be perceived as blatant attacks.
Let me ask you this if it is your primary point/intent to evaluate. Upon completion of this evaluation, what will you do with the information from your findings of these evaluations?
[Comment ID #30479 Will Be Quoted Here]
Pope:
Again a smoke screen and you still didn’t answer the post. However, I will answer your question, and hope to provide you with clarity concerning God’s Anointed.
The scripture is very clear when it speaks of people/items being anointed for God’s work/service. You can look many places in both the Old and New Testament concerning this.
One particular scripture in 1 John speaks to fit this situation. Please read 1 John 2: 20-29 (Pick your translation most say the same).
By the way this isn’t a debate (at least on my part) it’s a discussion.
For the record, I’m not trying to answer your whole post, I’m dealing with one particular section of it where you said we should not attack God’s Annointed. I can get to the rest of it later if you like.
After reading through many of your points I am going to guess that you are a pastor of some kind based on your inability to answer any issues directly. But, just for fun, I will try to ask you again:
Would you please define for us all what qualifies someone as “God’s Anointedâ€.
And…instead of quoting random Bible verses that would take hours to dig through to find their true meaning, please tell us in your words. Again, you won’t be able to do this, but I’m willing to give you another chance.
Pope:
Brother, if you are tying to get a rise out of me then….it’s not working. I was very specific in what qualifies someone as “Gods Anointed”. Refer back to the single passage of scripture that speaks to this affect.
I can only give you what the Bible speaks of, and will not be forced to give my own description of what qualifies such a person. Witchcraft, isn’t my strong suit, sorry if I can’t operate in that arena for ya. I believe if you had made conscience decisions to stick to the Word you wouldn’t be so confused on this, and other issues.
However, I will say no I am not a Pastor (yet) but thank you for your kind assessment of my Pastoral demeanor.
I knew you couldn’t answer me…
You were not even close to being specific (I’m guessing you’re one of those types who think you can take any part of scripture, apply it to whatever issue you want and not worry about whether it is acurate or not).
For those who are following along I will post his Scriptural reference:
Onestar, you are going to make a mega church very happy one day. Good luck with your pastorship.
Onestar said:
I try to pray about what I find and go from there. Let me ask you this: IF you are not the senior pastor of a church, this could happen to you.
You will be happily serving in a church until a few things come to your attention. The pastor picks a direction for the church that you find off-center from biblical direction. The sermons change from God-centered to self-centered. You begin to barely be able to sit through a message without internally crying.
Why is not the awesome God of Scriptures magnified simply for who He is and not for His santa-claus ability to fill our wish lists. Where is the strength of the Cross? Where is the willingness to allow the power of the Word to confront lives (Christian lives — not just the prodigals or those street people that wandered in)? Where is the deep fellowship of open prayer (not leader-directed petitions and decrees)?
You might pray about it. You might talk to your small-group pastor or whoever you go to because there is no way that the senior pastor will ever talk to you; you are not important. Your leaders tell you to keep praying. They tell you there is nothing they can do about it. And yet week after week, stretching into years, the direction remains the same and church becomes unbearable.
What would you do? You have zero input and you cannot stay. If you talk to anyone, they will tell you: (1) you are angry and bitter, (2) go to the pastor personally and don’t talk to anyone else, (3) every leader is put there by God, so don’t touch God’s anointed by discussing your observations with others, (4) God will take care of it Himself; just be quiet, (5) everyone is human, just ignore it and find something useful to do.
And the only people who mourn are those who have left before you. What would you do?
He would take the Kool-Aid…
Anyone who takes “touch not God’s annointed” seriously needs to do a little research on Jamestown. The pictures will make you sick…in God’s name.
Pope:
I see your point in this entire blog (not just this thread for I have seen your obnoxious comments in several places) is to stir Spiritual tension, and you seek no understanding whatsoever. (Of course, posted for those following this thread) Now that your motives are clear, I will choose not to respond to your nonsense after this post.
I will however, point out for the 3rd or 4th time. It is not my or your job to determine if someone is anointed of God. In my last two posts I simply presented you with a single scripture reference where God has given/graced individuals with His anointing and how they would operate under it. Your attacks are a sign of your physical and spiritual maturity. You almost sound like a child without understanding. When you want me to begin to answer you again, begin speaking like an adult (or is that asking a bit much for you).
Anna:
I pray that I never experience things in the matter you have, and all I can do is apologize on behalf of the Pastors/Leader’s that you dealt with.
Effective Pastors/Leaders deal with issues. It seems that in the situation you were in, you didn’t have a positive outlet for your concerns. Pastoral Care should be a very important part of every Ministry, especially when it grows substantial in number. When the church falls short in this area, the body hurts, and the worst part is there isn’t a shoulder to cry on. You are then left with hurt that eventually develops into bitterness, with the possibility of turning into hate. In order to get out of this hold one must heal. It is my assessment that you haven’t healed from your pain. I don’t claim to have all the answers, but I do know this. Prayer and positive influence is the beginning of it.
As long as you operate in this area of familiarity with others who are also in the same situation you pain will continue to stir. Although these people can empathize with you, they can’t heal you. They will continue to remind you of this pain, and healing is highly unlikely.
I will be praying for you and hope that through time you will get through this.
Onestar, I’m not much for patronizing people and clearly my approach is offensive to you, but I like to follow the creed:
“Let’s skip the formalities and get down to what we are here forâ€.
In your comments you have done so much double talk it is almost painful.
To quote your January 7th 1:56pm post:
Which would indicate that you have determined Rick Snow to be God’s Anointed…
Then when asked to define “God’s Anointed†you say:
You want to apply certain rules to us that you won’t even follow…that’s sad.
Anyway, your comment to Anna is WAY off base:
Go ahead and read all of Anna’s comments. You’ll find that she might be the most reasonable and un-bitter voice on this blog.
And finally,
.
Hurt doesn’t always develop into bitterness…I think that might be Anna’s whole point. (That and the fact that people like you keep trying to deflect the attention from the initial issue and turn the discussion towards something else).
Anyway, thank you for noticing my spiritual maturity,
Johnpaul
Thank you, Onestar. You just proved my point. Nor do you understand the source of my tears.
Jeremiah 2:12-13
grace
Anna:
Ok, it is obvious now that I missed the source of your tears, maybe you can help me understand.
Based on what you said in your last post, I told you what I think could help you in your previous struggle.
Please tell me what the source of your tears that I may know. I hear you saying you are upset that the church you attended is more I centered and less Christ centered. Is that the foundation or am I again missing it?
[Comment ID #30467 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think you are right: the crux of the matter IS how you view “the pastor.” Do you treat him the way you would want to be treated yourself? Do you see him as a fellow human being, loved by God and worthy of dignity? Do you first establish facts before throwing out accusations?
I think, Cat and Pope, that you still have the “king mentality” yourselves. Your king has disappointed you and now you are trying to depose him, and anyone else who appears in anyway similar. If you truly viewed yourself as a brother, I’m sure the spirit of your challenge would be much more palatable to all of us.
Hands off Pope, he is God’s anointed. Catalyst, not so much. Attack as the Spirit leads.
Excellent questions, anna, and mine as well.
But don’t lose hope…I believe the day is coming when those things will indeed be manifested in the lives of believers in Jesus, bringing to pass the fullness of this verse before the eyes of the world:
and of this one as well:
[Comment ID #30506 Will Be Quoted Here]
There goes another keyboard!
-joebib
Locutus:
Please don’t get upset, for I have now found that it is not the intent of MOST (not all) on this site to get an understanding of anything. It’s just to debate over worthless points, and sees if they can prove a point by making you strike back at them (Again MOST not ALL).
I encourage you to only speak/listen to those with harmless concern/issues.
Star
I don’t usually acknowledge your quips, as I fear they only encourage you.
But I genuinely laughed out loud at that one.
The other issue is how one views the harm the pastor causes the congregation. I don’t find using Jesus as a means for personal wealth simply “disappointing”. I find it horrific.
I have a friend who is thinking about doing the internship for the second year. I can tell that you all have many interesting perspectives. Can someone help me?
[Comment ID #30511 Will Be Quoted Here]
This could be another troll. But I’m not taking any chances.
For our thoughts on the internship program, see the final comments at the end of this post:
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blogblog/2007/12/27/question-about-the-city-church/
My suggestion Light Bright is for your friend to take that money and go to seminary or bible college, if they want to work in a church or mission field later on or go to a regular college.
I love this blog…people are so predictable.
Onestar, there are a few things you should realize about Us and this blog. We’ve been doing this for a good 3 years now and throughout that time we have had numerous people stop by to tell us why we are wrong for challenging their Leader (idol).
The problem is people (such as yourself, IMHO) want to tell us how horrible we are without ever addressing any of the issues we have raised. They (you) want to turn this into a debate/discussion about whether or not a blog such as this should exist, all the while ignoring the many valid points we have raised. So…pardon me, if we don’t take you seriously, when clearly you are not here for an understanding yourself…the only way this discussion works (in your mind) is if we listen to your points and agree with you…any dissention from your comments is automatic qualification for dismissal.
Now, if you would simply take the time to listen and acknowledge the many issues raised on this blog and then follow that up with specific reasons why they are false we could take you more seriously. It was quite obvious to me, however, that your only interest was to tell us we are wrong…and yet I still opted to engage you in a discussion about your comments (which you than ran from).
The next thing you need to understand is that there are 982 different registered commenter’s on this blog which leads to 982 different views and intentions. You can NOT judge one or two people (RP /CAT) for all 982 people. I have personally tried to stay out of the ACC discussion (go ahead and scroll through the comments to see if you can find anything I said about ACC) for the very fact that I don’t know anything about them…and it is not my place to say if they are good or bad (I have, however, written a few posts about Rick Snow based on the 2 sermons I heard him speak at CBC…which were horrible, in my opinion).
And finally, it is very important to understand that this is just a Blog…an online diary. Many people keep their personal thoughts under lock and key, Justin and I have been kind enough to share our person opinions with the world…but please remember that they are just opinions. Nothing we say should be taken as gospel.
WAY…too much time on your hands. My bad… I thought we were supposed to be busy loving Jesus and People. All I know is… those who have been forgiven MUCH Love MUCH! Y’all need some forgiveness…there is a major lack of love up in here.
praying your life is free of bitterness one day… the grass is way greener on my side of the fence.
Onestar, I am touched by your concern. Thank you. However, I am already talking to a Wonderful Counselor, and we are doing well.
You asked if I was concerned about the I-centered state of the church. Yes, I am, and the outworking of that internal change does cause me to grieve.
But even that is not the issue here. This conversation should not be deflected to be about me (or RP or Cat, et.al.) The original question was: “should we be concerned about a young man’s intership consideration at ACC?”
Why is it so difficult to objectively look at a church and evaluate it?
grace
True and True.
You all need to relax and understand that sometimes people will disagree with you…its not the end of the world though.
One day I’m going to write a post about how lame it is when “Christians” tell you they are praying for you. When did prayer become so condescending?
Anna, your comment…
…is perfect. Thank you.
Anna:
I am glad you are getting counseling for your situation. I hope you find peace and healing. May Gods blessings be with you as you follow His will.
It is your human right to look at every aspect of your life and make evaluations. In me asking you what you would do with your findings, I feel you were very clear about it, and hope you are able to use constructive criticism after you form your opinion in this.
As far as the ACC internship goes, you again have a right to form your opinion concerning that. I will however say please make sure your comments are both informative and accurate, and you don’t make statements based on what you heard, or someone told you. Based on our brief conversations it is now my belief that your motives seem pure.
Again I hope God gives you everything you need in life (NO NOT IN A SANTA MINDSET), and no matter what others say about it, yes I will be praying that He does just that.
Blessings,
Star
WOw. . . just some scriptures that have been bugging me that ppl haven’t put up.
1 Cor. 5:12-13
“For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those whoare within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from amoung yourselves.”
1 Cor. 14:29-32
“And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgement. But if the revelation is made to another who is seated, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets.”
I Thess. 5:20-22
“Do not despise prophetic utterances but examine everything carefully; hold fast to what is good, abstain from every form of evil.”
2 Tim. 4:3-5
There is rebuttal scriptures but if someone wants to search the scriptures with me, I’ll totally be interested in learning.
ONESTAR…. do you go to other blogs that you don’t agree with and tell them they are going to hell also? (which you appear to be doing in so many words)
Just because you don’t agree or don’t like someone bringing up questions about something dear to your heart does not mean people posting here are bad or wrong or anything… IMHO… they want people to think for themselves about .. say the internship program, a certain church, a certain person… and not be led around like a dog on a leash.
[Comment ID #30545 Will Be Quoted Here]
Living Life:
I will say this; you are completely missing me on this. I say nothing close to that. I have neither a Heaven nor Hell to put you in, and will never tell you that you are going to either.
May I ask where this is coming from? I almost feel as if you have me mixed up with another person on this site.
I don’t expect everyone to agree with me on everything in life. Form your own opinions, and make your own decisions in life. It is you that will have to live with the consequences/rewards not I.
OK
let’s go back to the original question, about the internship program.
If you go to the website http://www.cityinterns.com you can download the .pdf file for the program brochure. It costs about 5k a year, and at the end of the second, yes second year, they graduates are bestowed with a BACHELORS Degree, Not only that, but none of the program is accredited in any way. Multiple classes are taught by Rick Snow and his Daughter and Son-In-Law. To the best of my knowledge, no one on staff has a degree that would allow them to teach in any other institution of higher learning.
How, in any other part of society, is it possible to get a Bachelors degree in two years, the answer is, it is not possible.
From personally witnessing the program and people that are in and have been in it, I can say with a completely open and clean heart, that this is not a typical internship, ACC seems to use the internship as a source of almost slave labor. Every service, every special event, the interns are running them. Wandering around with headsets to stay in contact in many instances
sorry, I got cut off accidentally:
Back to the issue of slave labor,
Many of the interns I have met seem to know the deal, they understand the rules, spoken and unspoken, and they understand the requirements. From any other field, interns are not treated this way, or required to do as much on such varying schedules, with maybe one exception, that being medical student interns.
One day, I had an interesting discussion with one of the interns about a class they were taking, it was being taught by a staff counselor at the church, an LPC. He told the students, as I was told in the conversation, that if they ever begin counseling with someone and find that person is suicidal, they should then refer the client. This seems very strange to me as the requirements for pastoral counselors as well as professional counselors require that if a person is suicidal, the general rules are to error on the side of caution, and have them picked up by the sherriff or an ambulance and admitted to an inpatient facility. Refering someone that is suicidal and has obvious ideations, or plans, to commit suicide opens the person that refers the client to serious liability issues should they actually kill themselves or otherwide harm themselves. This then is not biblical teaching and is not in any way a teaching that meets the requirements of any professional society.
I attended ACC up until recently so I am fairly certain and knowledgeable about the things I a saying, and I could go on for some time about the internship program, and other topics through the church.
Grace to you all, and not the kind that rick snow preaches about.
[Comment ID #30571 Will Be Quoted Here]It seems Portland bible College is in the same boat. They offer a BACHELORS DEGREE, but in the fine print it is up to you to find out what other schools will accept the credits you earn at PBC. To be fair, there are likely a couple of local small colleges that will take some of them. Warner Pacific and Multnomah School of the Bible come to mind. If you think, however, that you can take all your PBC credits to a four year institution like the U of O or WSU, you are going to be in for an expensive and nasty suprise!
In my opinion, it is midleading and unethical to say you can get a bachelors degree at PBC.
Grace Boy:
You say you attended ACC up till recently (it’s also obvious because of the grace slam) but how long ago was it that you were a part of the intern program? How many years did you do?
Also, did you learn or gain anything naturally or spiritually from doing the internship? I ask because you seem to only trash it in everyway possible.
Yes GraceBoy. Perhaps you could post your criticisms in a structure more like a delicious sandwich. Something like:
“They have really nice architecture, The high ceilings really bring a nice openness to the room.
They beat the interns.
One other nice thing is that they do not kill people in the hidden basement, which is very nice.”
Thank you.
Hilarious…and pleasing in the eyes of God…a rare combination.
[Comment ID #30571 Will Be Quoted Here]
Obviously, you are mistaken in many ways about the City Intern program. Due to the fact the cost is $4,200 and the classes are not all taught by Pastor Rick, and his family.
Please get all of your facts befor posting false information!
Thanks
In my opinion, that is still a rip-off. Especially for doing things they should pay you to do. If they are anything like TCC’s internship, all the forced volunteer work they make you do should more than make up for tuition.
If you carefully read “grace-boy’s” comment you will see he said “multiple” not “all” classes are taught by them…
Please read comments carefully befor posting a flame comment.
[Comment ID #30625 Will Be Quoted Here]
Ninney,
you are mostly correct, up until this year, when Billy left for the great northwest, Pastor Rick and both of his Son’s in Law were teaching in the program, I think his wife has taught in the past along with his daughters, so you are mostly correct, at least for the current incarnation of the program.
With regard to the cost, I think it was adam that said at one point it cost about 5k annually, so if I am misinformed, I appologize. And for the record I said above it cost “about 5K” not exactly, so please get your facts straight as well with regard to what I actually said.
Grace to you Ninney, and remember this, Grace abounds in the arms of a loving Father.
and thanks to you Craig, for actually looking at what was written.
[Comment ID #30583 Will Be Quoted Here]
Onestar,
yes, up until recently I attended acc. I have not been a part of the internship, two kids, a wife and a job in south atlanta usually prevent me from being part of a slave labor program such as this. I have interacted with any number of the interns at different functions over the last two plus years, so my information comes from those discussions and the information gleaned from watching the interns during that time.
Grace to you Onestar
[Comment ID #30583 Will Be Quoted Here]
Onestar,
yes, up until recently I attended acc. I have not been a part of the internship, two kids, a wife and a job in south atlanta usually prevent me from being part of a slave labor program such as this. I have interacted with any number of the interns at different functions over the last two plus years, so my information comes from those discussions and the information gleaned from watching the interns during that time.
Grace to you Onestar
So back to the actual discussion of the internship program, and a recommendation:
Should I ever wish my two children to gain the experience of running a semi-mega-church (a church with enough people just not all the programs you think of a traditional mega church) or if they felt called into ministry in a large church spirit filled environemnt then I would consider this program. However i would be very clear at the start, that this time spent is not in any way in place of a college education, and i would consider the cost of the program as a contribution to the church.
grace to you all,
Grace-boy,
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate it. It does seem like a lot of money to pay to serve. However, I think that each intern has heard from God when deciding whether or not to proceed in doing the internship. I also believe that dogging the internship is a form of dogging the direction that God has given someone.
If God tells you to do something, it may not seem right with me because, quite frankly, God did not call me to do that task.
I don’t know what my friend will do. But the glorious thing, is that they are going to listen to God.
I am sure that the cost would be very beneficial no matter how my friend looks at paying the money. It does seem as though it costs a lot to do “slave labor” but from what I have seen, it seems a very small cost for the change that has happened in their life. I have seen this person change from the heart and come upon an understanding of purpose and destiny that sadly not many people can say they have.
So, if the issue is money, let us take the mastercard perspective:
Gas to and from events: $150.00(/mo)
Dorm Fees: $100.00
internship: $4200.00
Learning about your calling and direction from God as well as serving the Lord and His people: Priceless.
for everything else, there is extreme boredom and this blog!
Indeed. Didnt cost me no $5k neither. You got took girl.
…eh. Your doin it wrong.
I would love to see the data regarding what “interns” in MFI churches end up doing with their lives.
Now, on one hand, some real university programs require students to pay for internships (student teaching comes to mind), and I have no problem with that because the students graduate with real degrees that allow them to get real jobs and make a real difference in the world. Also, during university internships, such as student teaching, the student-teachers are treated with respect and given opportunities to use their skills, and over the course of the internship, take on increasing levels of responsibility and autonomy. I don’t believe that MFI internship programs couls say that any of these things are true for them. They are treated like slaves, with no more responsibility at the end than at the beginning; no degree; no marketable skills; no ability to do anything outside the MFI culture, where they can have their salaries stolen by the church (for “tithe”) and continue in enslavement to “the set man” and his cronies, unless HE (no room for women in ministry in that world) is fortunate enough to be one of the very few that “make it to the top.” SAD. CRAZY.
I don’t know anything about ACC, but if it’s cut from even a similar cloth as CBC, that’s all I need to know to advise young people to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES from any “internship” program.
DO me a favor, will you tell me what you think about the fact that God directed these interns into this program??
I THought it was an interesting point, but you all clearly missed it, so I thought I would bring it up again.
P.S. What does WTFWJD stand for? (this is one of those questions you don’t have to answer. Its just letting you know, that I know)
How do you know that is a fact? How do you know it wasn’t peer pressure and hype? Just curious.
Is Craig your last name??
No, not my last name. So I am genuinely curious how you know that’s a fact. I won’t even give a reply to your answer (unless you want me to).
This banter is amusing, at times, almost entertaing. Everyone has their opinions and all the talk in the world won’t change anyone’s mind on the issue of their church’s leadership or the intern programs. The ONLY thing that will change people’s minds is personal experience. Someone once told me that people change only after a painful experience.
All the Jim Jones followers thiought that they had a good thing going until they experienced the underpinnings of that program and so did the PTL clan and the Robert Tilton followers. The followers of Benny Hinn, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Rick Snow, etc. will reap the seeds they have planted with their support. Let people spend teir money as they see fit. Guard your children, however.
It’s just a very sad thing to see so much support given to one man/woman as if he/she is the one to be praised/honored/adored.
I don’t think that the money is a rip-off. It’s all about perspective. I think you get to go on a missions trip, have a lot of events paid for, including books and such, so not a rip-off. Some people drop more than that on a TV. That’s a rip-off from my perspective, but maybe not yours.
And since I am new, i will answer the original posting saying that it is incestuous if people inter-marry. that is ridiculous. If that is the case, then every university in America and every church in America is in some way incestuous. Some of you probably found your mate on this blog. Usually you find people who are compatable in places that you actually stay a while, so I think that’s all that really is. If that is considered incestuous, then that is just silly. Anyhoo, that’s all I got to say right now.
I am just wondering who the pastor is of all these unbelievably bitter people. He must be so proud.
BH
Ha, ha…
If you are so bitterless, why do you feel the need to make sarcastic comments? It’s fun to watch people who put themselves up on a pedestal come down from time to time.
Where is the love in this room? We are to love everyone as believers, whether we like them or not. Love conquers all! Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Truth is, is that no one is perfect, no not one. no such thing as a perfect church either. Chances are that most people who leave these churches will end up leaving other churches, then other churches. We all could stand to take a good look in the mirror and see where the real problem lies. Just sayin…I have no bitterness against anyone in this room. i will pray for you all. I hope that all of you who have negative things to say will be praying for those same people you talk so harshly against. Something happens when you pray for someone, it changes your perspective. Jesus spoke against the Pharisees, but on the cross He said, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”. That’s love! Love like no other. If we are truly CHRISTIANS, we should all do the same. Otherwise we are just a misrepensentation of who God really is.
JazzHand wonders …
everybody hold hands and sing either KUM BAH YAH or WE ARE ONE IN THE SPIRIT, WE ARE ONE IN THE LORD….
and rock back and forth and make googly eyes to the person on each side of you while singing.
John 13:35 – By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
John 15:17 – This is my command: Love each other
Blood-stained words of Jesus Christ
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Is bitterless a word? If it isn’t, it should be. In fact, it could be the slogan for the blog. I can see t-shirts, mugs, even tv spots.
Cat and Pope lounging, casually attired, on a tropical beach with dark sunglasses, ridiculously large grins, and a mai tai. JoeBib and Dave Mackin on adjacent hammocks looking content. Each with a stack of books on escatology nearby.
The rest of the crew is happily engaged in a volleyball game in the background while some stiff in a three piece suit, gold Rolex, and giant cross necklace looks disappointed while pointing to the door of a nearby church where several well dressed congregants are gathering.
The voice over is something like this… “Tired of the usual Sunday routine? Tired of being confused about whether holiness or tithing are more important. Come discover how it feels when your pastor hates you but you finally like yourself. City Business Church–Bitterless. Its not that we’re bitter, we just don’t care.”
Suggestions?
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Who said I was beign sarcastic? It’s fun to watch people who assume they know everything and put themselves up on a pedestal come down from time to time.
BH
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Yeah, you should get the guy who does “Movie Phone” to do the voice over. He’s awesome.
Secondly, “bitterless†is not a word. I thought however, it would get my point across of being bitter less…so I made it up. Also, I know sometimes when people make up words it is slightly annoying, but then I pondered that for a moment and realized the name was perfect for “THE BLOG.” I mean isn’t annoying when people make up stuff?
BH
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What’s not funny is watching someone who thinks they’re funnier then they are try to make with the humor. Then it’s just sad. Maybe start off with something more your level and work up from there. Do you know any knock-knock jokes?
Craig —
May I say something to you, brother?
I have followed what you have had to say in many different threads, and have noticed that your comments and responses, both here and on your own blog, are usually very scriptural and well-balanced, and the vast majority of which I agree with wholeheartedly.
I notice you have usually manifested a resistence to join in with what in all honesty — and regardless of how often, and how vehemently, it is denied — can only be described as bitterness, unbiblical responses and attitudes, personal attacks against leadership, and oftentimes even cruel mocking — commodities which are all too prevalent on this blog, in my view.
May I humbly encourage you to continue to manifest those Christ-like qualities I have seen up til now, and not join others in mocking or attacking the quite understandable responses newbies/others have when they read the majority of what is posted here?
-joe
What is your motive for the bull dog attacks on ACC and Rick Snow. I think you bloggers should spend your blog time praying for those whom you continually criticize. If you want to see some real faults bloggers take a long look in the mirror. You would do well to follow the example of Daniel and seek to develop an excellent spirit within yourselves. I am shocked at the the woeful lack of integrity and character in many of you of both genders. Why don’t you find a real cause and get involved in something worthwhile? As one of many o abservers of your blog I am beginning to question whether you bloggers have anything positive to say about anyone including the Lord Jesus Christ
As one recent politian said to another I knew John F. Kennedy and you are certainly no J F K. Through and by the bible, I know John the baptist and you certainly do not exhibit his spiritual characteristics and calling.
oversight,
Why are you so bitter? You need to pray about all that judgment in your spirit… and judge not!
If you think the moderators have done wrong by forming this blog, have you gone to them personally and tried to work it out? By accusing them without due process, you’re just accusing your brethren.
May you find grace.
Excuse me everybody if anybody wants to trash ACC, go head brothers and The Interns Go head But let me tell you something, We will do as Jesus did turn the cheek, we fogive you.
Passive Agressive much?
Attention all ACC personnel:
Please stop arguing with catalyst.
He doesn’t even think homosexuality is a sin, he even admits it….
That’s all i gotta say
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I am one of the professors with the CI program and have a MA degree from Georgia State University, was the Teacher of the Year for the State of Georgia and have a 6 year degree from the University of Georgia. So…..how did you determine that none of us are qualified? I suggest you get your facts straight before you gossip.
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Mr. Positive Influence,
1. Stop hating on ACC and intern, you just wish you had a church like ours and Interns like us. Except you lack the Leadership and Influence in you life
2. Interns do it on their will they dont have a gun to their heads, they can quit whenever they want
3. We forgive you
Young men of God… If you’re truly considering the internship opportunities… Can i suggest an alternate route?
Go, as John the Baptist, as Francis of Assisi, and just start -doing- the work of the Gospel. Not soaking up the toxic institutional lessons of how to build a bigger organization.
I believe, from working behind the scenes, that seeing how a church is run can be as damaging to your spiritual appetite, as seeing sausage made can be to your desire for a good omelette (sp?).
Take the needs you see outside the church and meet them. Find your downtown and seek out the homeless. What? Too hard for you? Then pray about God’s purpose for your ministry, because that’s where Jesus would be today. With the homeless, not on TV.
“How can you worship a homeless man on Sunday, and ignore one on Monday.
Blessings!
–p
Patrick Curtain said: Go, as John the Baptist, as Francis of Assisi, and just start -doing- the work of the Gospel. Not soaking up the toxic institutional lessons of how to build a bigger organization.
Patrick, This is what every Christian in every institutional church needs to hear and do. Well put!
I love that the leadership obviously held a meeting at ACC where they discussed this blog and the best approach to take. And in the end they told everyone just to say “We forgive them.”
When this blog causes a church to take time out of it’s day to address what is being written, then clearly I have done my job. I don’t pat myself on the back that often, but here, I just want to commend myself for writing an excellent blog.
hahaha…. (wiping tear from eye) Oh, this makes me so happy.
Funny thing is… this post was pretty much in the deep background until a supporter of the intern program at ACC dredged it up again!!!!
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WHAT???
Catalyst…you filthy, un-Christian, heathen loving, democratic sinner…you don’t think Homosexuality is a sin???
I can’t believe i’ve co-pastored this blog with you for so long. You make me want to puke. I’ll likely never speak to you again…the only sin worse than being gay is the sin of saying that Homosexuality is NOT wrong.
Next you’ll probably try to tell us that slavery IS wrong…I hope you and all you “people loving” liberals burn.
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dear Positive Influence,
I did not say, definitively, that people were not qualified, I said to the best of my knowledge or understanding, I think that I need to change this as I seem to remember that Dick Forde does have a masters from somewhere or other, I think it is in South Africa, but I cannot recall actually where that is.
I seem to remember that a number of the professors, have only ever attended the CI program for their degree, and for those people/staffers or the ones that have only a degree a non-acredited bible college, then the statement is true, if the degree would not allow you teach in an accredited college situtaion, then I consider that is unqualified to teach at any other institution of higher learning.
So if the list of teachers is incorrect and I missed another, other than dick forde, I appologize.
But just for the benefit of everyone coming to this site, please provide the educational background of all the teachers, unless it is some sort of trade secret that you are AFRAID to provide.
It is not a big deal to me, just info for those considering the program, since I do not plan on setting foot on that campus again.
grace to you Positive Influence or Richard which ever you are.
hello mr. rude ,
His name is not ___^ Forde. What type of Christian person r u? get a life and ACC doesnt have meeting for u guys the bloggers. they just ask God to give you more understanding and for you guys to turn away from your ignorance
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Grace to you as well,
As I stipulated ealier, I have several degrees and have been a public school teacher for many years so my teaching credentials are solid. Richard Forde does have a bachelor and master’s degree as does another teacher in the program from a non-Logos institution.
Now, as I am certain you have determined from the unversities you have attended, often classes are taught by grad students who are working to acquire additional certification. Several of our teaching team are working on additional degrees on-line, which is a credit to them.
The real question is not whether someone has a degree – as I have taught with HORRIBLE teachers who had multiple degrees – the issue is what is being taught and is it being taught correctly and in a manner which fosters a love for learning. You see part of my responsibility the last 15 years I taught school was to evaluate and recommend student teachers for graduation. I mentored many. I have a very good diagnostic eye. Let me say again – having a degree does make you a FABULOUS teacher. I am very proud of our teachers and the standards we set! I dare say that our grading scale and requirements are far from weak. In fact, I often tell students considering the program this is one of the hardest academic endavors I’ve seen. And I’ve seen many. Could I encourage you to come and visit some of our classes and check the routine? It’s not for the “light-hearted!”
Becuase of my work in the educational world outside of ACC, I value high standards and academic excellence. If the program was sub-standard, I would not teach in it or endorse it. Either one would be a compromise. Can I sign you up for either of my spring classes? Are you prepared to WORK?
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Are you always this cynical? I can’t imagine that anyone who loves Jesus would delight in such things as hurtful blogs. You really could use a hobby.
Bye for now -
If it’s such a high quality education, then why is it not accredited?
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Hello Mr. Ignorant (aka enriquez),
If I remember correctly, I have heard different staffers from the church refer to him as Richard, Rich and as Dick. If this is an acceptable practice for the staff, and for any number of others in the world that are named richard, then why do you protest, and assume that it is inherintly meant as a derogatory term. Please get your mind out of the gutter and turn away from your ignorance.
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Dear Positive Influence,
I must side with Catalyst on this one, if the standards are that high and the education is that great, how then does the degree system lack any form of accreditation.
Also, in response to another of you comments, yes, I did have multiple Teachers Assistants that would oversee courses of mine in college, however all that were allowed to teach in that institution were masters graduates that were working toward a second masters or a phd, not once did I have a lecturer or primary instructor with less than a masters. The lab assistants, that did not teach/lecture, were required to be seniors in that discipline or were students working on a masters.
If possible in your next post please speak to the fact that many students that attend schools or universities like Vanderbilt, Emory, Duke, Harvard, Ga Tech, UGA (granted not all majors qould require this), spend more hours in class and studies than do those in the CI program and it still takes them at least FOUR YEARS to earn a Bachelors Degree, yet through the CI program it appears as though it is two years.
Also on another topic you brought up, If there are really three instructors that have advanced degrees that would allow them to teach in an accredited university situation, then what do the other instructors have, is it true that multiple of the instructors have their entire post high school education from the CI program or from an online masters program through LOGOS, which, by the way, would not allow them the credentials to teach in any accredited university situation.
When last I saw a CI brochure, it did not in any way spell out that the degree is not accredited or that the credits might not transfer or be recognized by other educational institutions, has this been clarified in the brochure.
I look forward to your answers, and thank you for answering with honesty and integrity, it is refreshing in an environment like this.
grace to you all
No my sir, Mr. grace-boy da ignorant
get yourself out of the ignorance and stop bugging about the CI Program. Go get yourself a life. Get a job. And get a family and a wife. becuase it seems you have to much time in your hands. the reason you are investigated and trying to bring down the internship is because you wish and therefore you criticize. Get a life, mr. grace boy and grow up to a man. Now turn away from your ignorance By the way what is your name. Only a man that doesnt want his name exposed hides in a blog. Who are you?
if you want to criticize why dont you go to the CI director and talk to him. stop doing it behind his back.
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Wow, that’s some forgiveness there. I can feel the love all the way over here.
Scrolling through this conversation I think I’ve cracked the code to be a faithful ACC member:
1. Start off with an open and genuine demeanor.
2. If there’s a negative response, behave as passive-aggressively as possible.
3. If that doesn’t get the required effect insult the victim’s morals, value as a person, and future success.
This is very similar to the manipulation the Church of Scientology uses.
My only hope is that you truly love the people you are blogging about. That would mean that you would have already sent the church or the people in question a letter to address these issues that you have problems with before blogging, then after they did not respond, you addressed it here, but are continually praying for them. We need to be unified as a body of Christ (every one of us). Hatred has no place in the kingdom of God. And truly, actions speak louder than words. This goes for both sides. I have seen some horrible things written on both ends, when if we would grab a hold of the commandment of loving one another, we would not be against each other so harshly. There is a way to talk to one another and even bring correction, but it is done out of love. Where is the love. Everyone is only defending themselves and what they say by any means necessary. That is not love! Not the love of my Savior. We need to return to our first love and remember what God brought us from before we bring condemnation on our fellow Christians.
I know that I am writing this at the risk of being made fun of or someone saying, “let’s sing cumbaya around the camp fire”. But I believe that to be the heart of God. We can comment without trying to hurt anyone else. Hurting other people is something that my God never does.
Jazz, I have some questions. Please note that I am speaking in general terms and not about ACC in particular, OK?
You said:
Is it not true that anything a person says or does publicly can be discussed publicly without going to the person in question? Some people are not accessible. I mean, it’s unlikely I would get very far going personally to Joel Osteen if I disagree with him about something he said on TV.
Have you seen any hatred expressed? Or are you equating hatred with disagreement. In which case, I would have to say that gay rights activists do that already with great success.
If you look at the context of that quote about “first love” you will notice that Jesus first commends the Ephesians: “That you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles, and have found them false.” How do you think they did that? Just asking.
I’m all for “can’t we all just get along” too. But there has to be a way to express disagreement without people getting defensive and deflecting from the issues at hand.
As far as God hurting people… well, I’ve had my share of correction and discipline.
Hi anna,
You said…
Is it not true that anything a person says or does publicly can be discussed publicly without going to the person in question? Some people are not accessible. I mean, it’s unlikely I would get very far going personally to Joel Osteen if I disagree with him about something he said on TV.
I believe that we do not handle ourselve the way the world handles themselves. We should at least try to contact the people we have something against. Even if we do not succeed. I am not saying that blogging is bad, only that it should be a very last resort.
and…
Have you seen any hatred expressed? Or are you equating hatred with disagreement. In which case, I would have to say that gay rights activists do that already with great success.
Maybe not hatred, maybe that’s not the right word, but there is a definite disliking that i sense. And again, you cannot compare our behavior with unbelievers. I believe that we should conduct ourselves in a manner that would draw people to Christ.
and…
As far as God hurting people… well, I’ve had my share of correction and discipline.
Well, it is not our job to bring down the thunder on people by hurting them. god brings correction, but only because He loves us. I discipline my children because i love them. If we bring correction out of love, I have no problem with it. It just seems that we are lacking in that area.
Ok, Jazz, so more questions. Please understand that I am challenging general notions and not picking on any particular person or church.
If a leader / teacher is teaching harmful doctrine and leading people away from the simplicity of the gospel, then how should we respond to that person? Should they be accorded loving gentle correction? Perhaps.
But what does that say to their “victims?” How would you respond if you saw a man tied up and being beaten? Would you say to the attacker, “Oh please stop. It’s not kind to treat someone that way. May I gently entreat you to lay down your club?”
How did God through the prophets and through the Lord Jesus respond to those who treated His people wrongfully? Looking again at that quote from the church of Ephesus, how do you think they handled the wicked men?
But even if we agree that vengeance is the Lord’s and He will repay, then are we still not responsible to go to those who are being misled or mistreated and remove their bonds and give them the choice of freedom? How is this done in our modern situations?
Last question: Do you see why I am asking these questions?
To anna,
yes, I see why you are asking these questions. Unfortunately, I don’t have all the answers. I do know that it would be wrong for us to speak negatively about a pastor or leader (whether or not they are our pastor or leader – All authority is ordained by God) before confronting that individual. Even though Jesus spoke against the Pharisees, on the cross He said “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He knew that they were hurting people with their teachings and their ways, yet, He had mercy and He died that they may be saved if they only accept Him. There are times to bring correction, I agree with that 100%. Just realize who our battle is against. Satan is the great deceiver. If you have the opportunity to save the person who is beating on the tied up person, why bypass that opportunity. Noone who sees something like that would begin to talk to and save the victim before dealing with the other person first. You 1st try to get them to stop beating by confrontation.
Those are just my thoughts.
Jazz says ….
So if I declare myself a leader, then does that mean God ordained me in that position of authority?
This would mean that the Morton boys are ordained by God and you best not speak negatively about them either..
And on and on and on….
The carnal nature of man does a lot of putting themselves in positions of authority.. and that does NOT mean they are ordained by God and they are to be revered and not “touched”
We are and you shouldn’t…or else.
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it sure doesnt look like your to christian like? u affliate w_f with WWJD look you twisted doctrine ungrateful person, get over your bitterness and resentment and get a life . Actually to let you know I have been to that church and its awesome get a life man grow up leave your childness behind and shut your mouth cause your digging a deeper hole that you cant get out of. the only person that can get you out of it Jesus so talk to him hes my boss And I guess looking at your blog i can analyze these are your steps:
1. Criticize
2. Take your bitterness out
3, Hate on God and other churches
4. waste time blogging all your life until one day you realize you were wrong and you never fulfilled Gods person in your life
These are the steps you should:
1. Forgive those
2. Forgive yourself for your ignorance
3. get a Job, career, date or something
4. Change your display name
5. Go to the baptisit church opf Atlanta and Join us in prayer
6. and stop leaving churches becuase of your insecurities and becuase your a quitter
7. Get off myspace and blogs
8. Talk to God
9. and finally join our baptist church of Atl
First Baptist Church Atlanta
4400 North Peachtree Road
Atlanta, GA 30338
770-234-8300
Intercessory Prayer Ministry 770-234-8525 prayer@fba.org
Adult Life Ministry 770-234-8331 bwade@fba.org
Just ask for Enriquez
You’ve heard of the twelve steps of AA? Well, now I introduce you to the nine (that’s right, ladies and gentlemen, three less) steps of BCA (Bitter Christians Anonymous):
I knew there’d be a sales point at the end. I just knew it! I think he forgot step 9b: Tithe (and give offerings) to aforementioned church.
As much as I enjoyed your post, my dear friend, I really wouldn’t give my church’s phone number out on a blog of people whom I’ve deemed to be bitter against Christians and who, as you yourself said, “hate on God and other churches”.. that’s just asking for prank phone calls from “bitter” Christians.
Enriquez,
Is your refridgerator running?
Enriquez, thank you for proving my point (#3) so effectively. Yet again I’m feeling the christian love tingling all over me.
eleytheria: I’m getting your 9 steps tattooed on my arm. Awesome.
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I’m intrigued.
WTFWJD,
I personally do not agree with enriquez, but I have to wonder your motives with your 3 requirements for an ACC member. You have gone from speaking against the leadership of the church, to attacking its members. Aren’t those the people that you are trying to “enlighten”. If you don’t care about them, then who do you care about? What is the point of blogging?
It seems this blog has turned into some kind of blogging war to see who can come up with the best ways to insult someone else. That’s not cool.
a) I like to make lists. Lots of lists. I’m working on a list right now of the best happy hour prices in my neighborhood and which types of beer they have on tap. That list is far more fun than the one you’re referring to. Mostly because of the differing types of research required to make both lists. In fact, I will be quitting this shortly to continue my other research. Wish me luck as I do not want a headache tomorrow.
c) While this wasn’t really your point, please feel free to prove me wrong in my observations.
OMG! does this mean I might be right about his attitude?
a) Perhaps the members of ACC are acting the way they are here because they are imitating the way their leaders act (e.g. Suzie’s post, if that was really her)? If so, then deflect my comments towards church leadership if that makes you feel better.
b) I’m not trying to enlighten anybody, don’t give me that much credit. People posting here like Ninny and Enriquez and the hundreds of other bitter, angry, reactive people who call themselves Christians will believe what they believe. This will only change if they or someone close to them “takes the red pill” so to speak. Trying to change them is like trying to make Cat not drink on Fridays. Frustrating and often physically dangerous.
It seems this blog has turned into some kind of blogging war to see who can come up with the best ways to insult someone else.
Jazzy honey, have you read the first posts (3+ years ago) of this blog?
So if I’m on this parody site to poke fun at people. Why are you here?
I am a current intern in the internship at ACC and have just a few things to say. This goes out to all those who are busting ACC:
(1) His name is Richard and that’s what the staff, the interns and all of ACC call him. Never have I heard him referred to as Dick.
(2) The school I am attending is not accredited, but neither is Harvard and no one on this blog has even mentioned that.
(3) You can think what you want about ACC members (or even City Church members for that matter) but it really doesn’t matter what you think or believe. Most of it’s lies anyway.
(4) For people who state they are Christians and love God, you’re proving you’re not (John 13:35 And they’ll know you are My disciples by your love).
(5) Jesus loves you no matter what and you need to grasp that completely.
(6) Finally, there is grace and no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1) So, since we (ACC) are in Christ Jesus why are you condemning us.
If Jesus reads this (and He is) He could find a lot of discrepancies about your interpretations of the Bible – mainly because most of them contradict it seriously! Jesus really does love you.
)
Hmm…just to address Current Intern’s point #2….basically because his/her assertion is….well….#2.
Any other “well-informed” statements you wish to make in regard to the “discrepancies” or “untruths” that other posters have commented on?
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Finally someone who makes sense out of all this wow thank you intern for posting this and to all those who wish to remain ignorant go on
I find it fascinating that both Enriquez and Current Intern share the same IP address.
Who would have thought?
Ha ha…I love it!
So what you’re saying is….. He’s talking to himself?
lololololol
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No actually im talking to the ones with ignorance who spend all their time at home blogging and loosing their time. Those who know they have a higher calling from God and ignore it and rather criticize others and hate on churches and interns. 2nd: get yourself a life
As far as Enriquez talking with himself, that may be true in real life (I’m not sure), but I can assure that I am not him. Straight from the intern’s mouth. And I’m pretty sure that a lot of us here at ACC have the same IP address.
Enriquez, you should probably stop using the word ignorant so much and be a little bit nicer. After all – WWJD? (And I know I left out some letters, but that was done purposely.)
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ok i will be nicer …
im sorry 4 being mean and calling – WTFWWJD and grace boy and reformed pope – ignorants (i meant you all have brains but ignorance exceeds in your minds). however, i will follow WWJD without the other stuff in front purposefully.
I will be nicer
current intern your right lol
i love the interns. truly they are the most awesome people in the world. i might not know them personally but they have changed my life through their love and joy that they have. please people leave them alone. Leave acc alone for they have not done anything wrong
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I appreciate your quick humility, Enriquez.
So, did he just reproach himself for calling us ignorant, apologize to himself, and then tell himself that he appreciated his humility?
And to think, all these years I’ve had so much trouble keeping my multiple personalities distinct from each other.
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no actually i was talkin to curent intern who ever that is. by the way just because someone has the same ip only means there on the same network noton the same account
By the way, current intern/Enriquez/whomever you happen to be, I just wanted to (lovingly) address a few of your points.
Firstly,
Most of us don’t actually know any ACCers, and as such have no specific grievances with the actual institution, but instead with the whole City Church/City Bible Church/MFI system, and its abuse of people like us (and you). I apologize if any of it (from me at least) has seem pointed at you or your institution specifically, it’s more of a shooting at the whole corrupt empire.
I was also an intern for a year (at City Church), so while I don’t know how it’s specifically done there, I know that at TCC it was very light on the “educational” aspects and some rather odd (to say the least) theological positions were endorsed in said “educational” times. Most of the intern program though, to me, was more of a working at the church for free (actually, paying to work at the church), which I would have no problem with in the slightest had I felt that I was actually helping anyone who needed my help, ie. the homeless, poor, hurting people who seem to be everywhere; not getting Starbucks and providing cheap labor for the vision of some pastor who, in my humble opinion, didn’t seem to give a rat’s ass about me or anyone not in his “inner circle” of business men/yes men in the slightest (sorry for the vulgar language).
Also, the same could be said about us. Most of us are not entirely bitter, most of this blog is truly parody (at least to some of us), and it isn’t so much seriously raising a lot of points as much as it is that it’s funny to us (or, at least, to me).
Secondly,
I’m sure that same exact verse could be turned on you at times throughout your day to “prove” that you are not a Christian. The simple fact is that we could go back and forth with the “Scripture Wars,” and everyone could state their case using their slightly (or possibly extremely) misquoted and misapplied Scriptures until we’re all blue in the face, but it’s not going to change anyone’s opinions because the truth is that most of us are pulling little bits of Scripture COMPLETELY out of context and trying to apply them to our present situations.
In my, once again, humble opinion, chapter/verse was possibly the WORST way that the Bible has ever been butchered, now people feel that they can just quote one Scripture to prove their point instead of passages; or we think that we can put multiple Scriptures together from completely different contexts like they’re some sort of puzzle when it seems (to me, at least) as though the Bible wasn’t meant to be used in such a manner.
Anyways, sorry for the lengthiness, just a few things I wanted to say. I hope we can continue this friendly discussion.
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The only problem I see with these blogs is that when you begin to mention names and people, things get taken way too far. You seem to have a good reason to blog or feel abused or just want to protect others (whether we agree with you or not), because you have actually had an experience with the churches mentioned. When you mention names and not just the situation that has taken place, many see it as a free for all-all out attack on the people mentioned. To me, that isn’t right. One thing is universal in the Bible, Jesus died for all of us. I really urge you, if you haven’t already, to write a letter or contact the people you have these issues with and at least see if they will hear you out about it. Not saying that i agree or disagree with what you are saying. I just believe that there are better ways to handle the our disagreements with the church. Maybe what I said is not the answer either, but this seems to do more harm than good. All this bickering back and forth can’t be good. If everyone on this blog handled themselves like only a few do, than you may actually get somewhere, but that is just not the case.
Jazz, I really appreciate your efforts at keeping the dialogue on a higher level. Its clear to me that your heart is in the right place. But if you knew the stories of the people here, I believe you would be very surprised at the number of letters and efforts at personal interraction we are responsible for. I can't speak for everyone, but most of us have found efforts to communicate personally to be completely unproductive.
In my experience, the people we have concerns with are not interested in our concerns. In fact, they feel no obligation to listen to us because they honestly believe themselves to be higher up the heavenly food chain because they are "pastors". They see themselves as our covering. Therefore, we are accountable to them, but they are only accountable to other "pastors". In their mind, me confronting a pastor about bad theology is like a private in the Army questioning the strategy of his general. It isn't done.
I should qualify this statement by saying that I don't believe any of the pastors in City Churh/MFI would admit that their hierarchy operates in this way, but my experience suggests that it does. They rarely come out and say, shut up you worthless twit. Its more passisive aggressive. Depending on the seriousness of the anger problem, it might be simply aggressive. But the result is always the same. The conversation ends up focusing on why the person asking the question is so negative and unforgiving. They generally refuse to answer my question until I have removed the log from my own eye. But of course, the only evidence they will accept that the log has been removed from my eye is that I stop asking the question. I hope you can see the quandry.
Our belief that the kingdom of God should not work this way is one of the concerns we have. But they have completely insulated themselves from accountability to anyone who is not one of them.
I know a family that went to their “district pastor” to ask some questions regarding how things were being run at CBC and this “district pastor” gave them a book on “submitting to authority” and told them to read it first and then see if they still want to ask the questions.
On another note, I find it interesting how each church culture reacts differently to being brought into this (The) Blog…Atlanta City Church has reacted with a lot more anger than The City Church did…but they spell better. Congratulations Atlanta Public School Systems, you seem to be a step ahead of Seattle.