Atlanta City Church
Posted on May 16th, 2007 by catalyst into the Comments From Others categoryBecause there is nothing I love more than bringing another church into our circle of fun, here is a question from a new reader:
We have a young man interested in attending the internship at Atlanta City Church (www.atlantacitychurch.com) . We oppose and pray that he makes a different choice. Would love to hear from anyone with experience at ACC.
I am of the same mindset as you all, which is how I found this website in the first place. This is scary business. Do you all see a lot of marrying within the interns and church congregation? It seems a little incestuous!
Where are the Atlanta folks??! Any comments on the leadership there?
I know JP has made a few observations about Pastor Rick Snow. Anyone else?
May 16th, 2007 at 7:41 am
Why not write Mr. Snow at ACCRSNOW@AOL.COM
Found his personal addy HERE.
No spam now, OK?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:04 am
Does anyone know why it’s become so trendy in charismatic circles call your church something with city and church in it and to call your youth group generation something?
I swear all these churches are carbon copies of eachother. Or is it just an MFI thing?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:09 am
I think it’s an MFI thing.
And pretty lame.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Seriously lame. MFI churches have some of the lamest names. It seems that they all try to imply that they are “the church” for their city. The City Church, City Bible Church, Benny Perez’ The Church at South Las Vegas (which just goes by “the church” sometimes), Atlanta City Church, etc. It’s a curious trend.
And then there’s the whole ‘Generation’ thing. I guess that one comes from the mentality that God deals with generations. They always say that God is raising up a generation to do this or to do that. It seems like it’s all a hype thing.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:58 am
For church names, I was always partial to either African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, or any church known as “First _ Church” …
In the early 80’s, I spent several weeks in the DFW area, and after work drove around to see the sights. At one corner in a suburb of Dallas, there were 4 ‘First’ churches, each a different denomination. I always wanted to ask them which first was first …
Perhaps choosing the ‘City Church’ name has something to do with dominionism? Remember that sermon of Judah’s - The Way of the Water Pot? At the 41:40 mark, Judah exclaims “I am not here to fit in … We are here to take over”.
The Portlanders have seen that especially, what with multiple campuses springing up on both sides of the river, regardless of another MFI church in the neighborhood.
Why, CBC/MFI is kind of the Meatrix of churches …
‘Scrupe
May 16th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
I believe the name is to “fit in” (lol) I think churches should be required to say who they really are and their name should be a representation of that. City Bible represents neither!
May 16th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
btw….Benny Perez/Church of South Las Vegas is not apart of mfi.
hmmmmm….ya, and you know what else is funny??? when a blogsite parodies a name of something else. ie…city bible church….city business church.
apparently you’ve jumped on the trend wagon my friends.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
ohhhhh burn. You go girl!
May 17th, 2007 at 12:16 am
’scrupe,
The ‘Meatrix’ episode was too funny! It fits like a glove with what goes on in the mega church world. What do you suppose the red and blue pills represent? I’ll go for the ‘tithe’ doctrine for one of them.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:56 am
I was a member of ACC from the mid-nineties until about 3 years ago. ACC didn’t start out under MFI, but was a church plant from a “mother church” in Alaska (which also started other “daughter” churches besides ACC) about 30 years ago. I’m not sure if this original network of churches exists anymore.
ACC used to be called “Atlanta Christian Center”. The name was changed about 5 years ago when the affiliation with the west-coast City Churches was strengthened. ACC adopted other City-church names(Generation Surge youth ministry) and began having an internship program where the intern pays for a year of bible study, a mission trip, plus basically pays to work for the church (ie: practical ministry in serving the heads of the different departments). Previous speakers at youth camps and conferences include Jude Fuqua (sp?), Benny Perez, and Chris Hill (TD Jakes’ youth pastor). The church has put on the Eternity play 2 or 3 times.
****
SIDE NOTE:
By the way (in reference to the original post expressing concern about the intern program), I HAVE seen young people grow through this program. My main problem was the fact that these kids are supposed to come to ACC to learn, then take back what they learn to their own churches. Many of them, however, seem to get absorbed into ACC and don’t return to their home church. Now, I can only attest to how it seemed to be two + years ago, and some of this is hearsay since I’ve not been there for a long while.
****
From its inception, ACC was a multi-racial church, which was NOT the norm in Georgia back in 1976. When the church outgrew its initial building, Rick sought permission to build in a particular metro county. According to what Rick has shared (and which other long-time members can attest) the person in charge of granting a building permit asked Rick “are you one of them ‘CHAIR-izmatic N-Word Lovin’ churches? ” and basically told Rick, “no, you can’t build here.”. So, land was purchased in south Fulton County (Union City, about 10 minutes south of ATL Hartsfield/Jackson airport) instead and the church continued to grow. They now have a “south campus” in an affluent part of Fayette County (Peachtree City…a planned community with a number of Delta Pilots and other Delta employees) as well as the original north campus in Union City.
The church used to have a healthier environment and was a great place to serve & grow. I don’t want to re-hash any negatives. Suffice it to say that much of what transpires at ACC is the same type of stuff that happens at City Bible.
Rick, the pastor, is what I would call a “visionary” pastor in that he thinks and plans large-scale to advance the kingdom of God. Noble idea, and the Lord has used Rick in many ways, but the strategy has become very BUSINESS like rather than the organic nature of the Body of Christ. In his quest to get a “big picture” of the forest, Rick doesn’t seem to see the individual trees in that forest. I could be wrong, but the “city business” title seems to fit. There is quite a bit of potential in this church, however, and a lot of untapped giftings. Beyond the “tithe” emphasis, Rick is a gifted teacher and shares good “nuggets” from the Word of God, and includes lots of practical ways to apply the Word in your life. I still check out their web from time to time, and listen to some of his messages.
I pray for this church and others like it to come BACK to the simplicity of their first Love, because in that simplicity they will see Jesus more clearly once all the agendas are out of the way. Jesus said when He’s lifted up, He’ll draw all men unto Him.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:05 am
whatHEsaid,
Glad you liked it.
There’s 3 Meatrix episodes, but I still like the first one best. “Oooohhh! What’s that smell???” … “12 million pounds of excrement” … “Well it smells like sh….” as ‘Moo-pheus’ covers Leo’s mouth …
So typically ‘big church’ and ‘religious’ …
I just loved the Matrix trilogy too - Matrix I was the best … always kinda figured the red and blue pills represented truth and continued delusion, respectively. The blue pill is quite popular in mega-churches, I hear. Hugo Smith was the best as Agent Damazio.
‘Scrupe
May 17th, 2007 at 6:40 am
If you can think of a better way to parody citybiblechurch.org then to insert “business” into the name where the bible is supposed to be… then let us know.
:)
May 17th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Former ACC Member said “I pray for this church and others like it to come back…”
BACK??*#* Excuese me?#*!
What you do not like about these churches NOW is the fruit on the same tree these churches were 20-30-50 YEARS AGO.
I remember Dick Iverson telling the church that we needed to buy Rocky Butte property. We could either give to raise the money and do God’s will, or not do God’s will and wander in the dessert for 40 years. Anyone opposed was out side the will of God. He told the story how he was driving into town and saw Rocky Butte and started yelling in his car “GOD GIVE ME THAT MOUNTAIN”.
Even before that, I remember Dick Iverson praying that “the enemy”, a neighbor legally blocking the expansion of BT on the Glisan site would be “removed”. He died and Dick rejoiced and remodeled his building.
Today, your bloggers are are complaining about the City Church “prada syndrom” and Juda Smith’s hair do-do… the son of one of the original “must give the good image, Nordstrom shopper” in the history of BT. I remember visits to BT from the “Alaska” church pastor and wife, with the “image of loveliness” being teaching of the day for women to live up to. We were expected to dress the image.
The Alaska group: unschooled “Why learn greek or hebrew, we have Strongs” pastors, keeping attendance records of it’s members. Seriously! No Exaggeration! I know someone x-communicated because they were saying they should stay home on Sunday if they were helping someone get off drugs and couldn’t leave them alone. And a friend of those people because he refused to treat them as x-communicated.
Oops. I made an entry and only want to be a quiet observer…. But really…. GO BACK??? doesn’t even the bible say something about you’ll know them by their fruit… after 30 years all I see at the church is a bunch of half baked Fruit Cakes.
May 18th, 2007 at 6:50 am
FormerACCMember said: “My main problem was the fact that these kids are supposed to come to ACC to learn, then take back what they learn to their own churches. Many of them, however, seem to get absorbed into ACC and don’t return to their home church.”
FormerACCMember: Thanks for sharing the background of the ACC church! The problem of students and “visitors” being absorbed into ACC that were originally supposed to go back to their home churches, was (is?) exactly the problem that Portland Bible College had, too. Boy-student meets girl-student and settle down at BT/CBC and have kids - instead of going back home. This happened so much of the time with so many “prime” ministry candidates that many local churches began their own ministry training programs so as not to lose their “investments.”
May 18th, 2007 at 7:31 am
No-Umbrella said:
… and full of nuts, too!
Very good observations!
May 18th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Former ACC Member said “I pray for this church and others like it to come back…”
No-Umbrella, I can’t really comment on that because I wasn’t a part of the church 20 + years ago. I can only go by what I saw in my church at the time. Yeah, in the beginning there were some elements of the drive for excellence and SOME element of elitism, but these were nowhere NEAR the degree they are today, and by and large there was quite a bit of freedom in Christ, good solid teaching, and good “non-forced” relationships. Things didn’t start getting “bad” at ACC until about 7 or 8 years ago. And even within that “bad” there was still quite a bit of good. I think that there are going to be elements of that in EVERY church due to the fact that the church is made up of people and we’re ALL flawed people.
That absolutely stinks. It should have been presented in a non-manipulative way, with much prayer among the elders and congregation. If it was God’s will, He would have provided the funds without the “thus saith the Lord” threats. Still, ACC did not use to be under the covering of Dick Iverson in the early days, and I cannot comment on how things were then since I wasn’t there.
The other unscriptural occurences in the early days of Bible Temple which you mention stink in the nostrils of the Lord too
Still, my particular post was in reference to ACC and occurences there. I’ve NEVER witnessed blatant abuses there to the degree you experienced. Also, I think that in the beginning, just about all churches begin with the desire to know God and make Him known. The leader in place may feel strongly that God has given them a particular vision as to how to implement that. However, as soon as the leader gets prideful and starts putting their own agenda ahead of God’s agenda, he loses sight of the pure and undefiled worship of the Living God.. That’s what I meamt by praying these churches find again their first Love!
I wish it was as cut and dried as that. I don’t see it that way. I had seen some of that same “Prada” culture emerge and it didn’t sit well with me either, which is ONE reason I left. It was a combination of many nagging little things and a few bigger things.
Still, the church isn’t just one man or one leadership team. It’s ALL the people there that comprise the body of Christ. There are some fruit cakes, to be sure…but there’s also a lot of good people there and I have a hard time blanketly labeling a whole movement or congregation as “half-baked”.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I know in my years at BT I there because i intensely wanted to find God and that many people that are in this type of church are sincere at heart. They just don’t have the belief in themselves to follow their gut. How often do you read the Bible and just skip the parts that don’t make sense? Would a loving God would say or do such a thing like genocide? What about hell for eternity? Torture people for eternity? The love i feel couldn’t do that, and I if God truly is love, he won’t either. Wow, you say the earth moves around the sun? Really? That rocks my whole belief system.
When i left “church” I found God. The same experience of “feeling his presence” is with me. I have peace because i don’t have to live in “fear” of going “outside God’s will”. But i don’t believe the same way in the bible, and I don’t believe in hell. The hardest part was losing friends and community.
I think the people who created this Blog are trying to say the same things Jesus said about Pharisees. These church leaders are keeping the church members, who want more than anything to do the right thing for God, tied up in fear.
My comment about Fruit Cakes was not intended to be mean, but simply in keeping with the spirit of the creators of this blog. I just shake my head and marvel that some people still think that the sun revolves around the earth.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
OOPs, Sorry, I did that quote this commet wrong. Sorry. I’ll get the hang of this after a couple more posts… or many not.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
May 19th, 2007 at 5:04 am
I appreciate the comments regarding ACC (See www.atlantacitychurch.com). I would like to hear more on the leadership or structure of the church. I didn’t have a good vibe about it the minute I walked in and I haven’t spent a great deal of time there, but in a nutshell my concerns center around:
1. The FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) that seems to exist among anyone who chooses to question anything or leave the church. What? Go where God leads you and be done with it! Real leaders aren’t fearful of this.
2. The intense pressure to bring in new folks.
3. The whole inter-marrying thing (and trust me, at ACC there are far more inter-marriages than there seems to be at the churches you mention). I can’t begin to describe the incestuous nature among the leadership there. It is WEIRD! It seems like all of the pastor’s family/extended family works for the church in some leadership capacity.
4. The guest speakers that come in and people think are marvelous. People seem to question nothing, but believe the guest is great (and come back for more services with the guest) because leadership tells them they are. Say what?! I saw this one dude screaming, yelling and fake crying (boo hoo) in an attempt to get at least one person to come up to the alter. This went on for like 10 minutes before some woman fnally saved us all from continual torment by going forward. That seemed to satisfy the guy and we were finally dismissed. Oh wait — no we weren’t, we had to take up his “love” offering first (which he claimed he never accepted). Sure, Bud.
5. There seems to be a regal importance and a deeper spiritual walk for those who are blessed with their very own “prayer language.” I am not against speaking in tongues. however, if you don’t have that gift, shame on you, you shallow Christian, you! There is just something not right when you see people who can turn on/off speaking in tongues at a moments notice. Oh yeah, and hey, by the way, where’s the interpreter?
6.I am no theologian (of course the education among the pastors there is questionable too!), but God did give me the gift of discernment. There are times when I sit there and think to myself, “HUH?!” Is that really how he interprets that?? And why can’t I interpret it for myself???
7. I am totally for ministering to people who are in trouble — drugs, alcohol, finances, etc. What concerns me is that they thrive on helping those folks but then seem to keep them dependent on ACC. There seems to be a degree of codependence between the broken and ACC. Of course, there are no meetings from outside the community in the facility, such as an AA meeting. They also keep their own food bank versus the excellent one we have on the community that most of the other churches participate in.
8. The internship it seems is the “elite” group in the church. I guess maybe it is if a real education isn’t of value or you don’t have the confidence in believing you can make an impact betond the four walls of ACC. Why does it frighten them that some people are just bigger than those four walls??
9. I think we need to be careful about this gift of “prophecy.” One single lady (attractive in her mid-thirties) told me that it has been “prophesied” that she would meet a Godly man and would get married. Hey, I am no prophet, but I am guessing the odds are pretty darn good that that could happen in her lifetime. Hmmm.
10. Where’s the integrity, dude?? The leadership seems to think it is OK to follow one set of rules, cut corners, even deceive others in authority, but then we are supposed to go to THEM for spiritual discernment?? I think NOT.
11. The pastor moved into a pretty nice house on several acres. Nothing wrong with that I guess but something does not seem right. The land was “donated” and I guess the house was too?
12. Lastly, it also seems weird that a couple of the “pastors” or elders just happen to be extremely wealthy and donated the land to the senior pastor and helped to build his new abode. Fishy.
So, it is pretty clear that my note here must be from “the enemy”. Otherwise, how could I even think about questioning the authority and divine guidance found at ACC? After all, I am just a poor, dumb sinner who doesn’t speak in tongues and who has not been anointed for leadership. Lord, help me please.
May 19th, 2007 at 5:35 am
Notmykid,
I can’t really argue with any of your points and you articulate them better than me. Many of these things bothered me, too…which is why I left.
Especially the “1,2,3 start praying in your prayer language”. What ever happened to “waiting”. Also, I believe tongues is AN evidence of baptism in the Spirit but not THE only evidence.
How long have you been attending/visiting ACC? I was there for about 10 years and left three years ago.
The recent installation of the wealthy “elite” elders took place after I already left.
The inter-marrying seems to be between a couple of families. It kind of bugged me that just about all of them are also on staff.
May 19th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Wow, notmykid! That was impressive. Did you perhaps get a bootlegged copy of the MFI manual?
Just one comment on #7: Getting people dependent on the church is only for certain people — those who can be cleaned up easily and quickly contribute (financially of course). If someone has serious troubles, like bipolar, rage disorder, post-traumatic stress, they are dropped. The leaders are really not equipped (or even willing) to handle this level of need.
And that, to me, exposes their spiritual lack. Did not Jesus go to the neediest of society. Didn’t He say that His anointing was for the poor, the prisoner, the one whose life was in ashes?
That’s what happens when you promote “elders” based on their ability to administrate, and not on their spiritual maturity.
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:56 pm
I have attended ACC along with my family for 15 years and what you say about the church is twisted. Our church is very grounded in the word of God and passionate about touching our community. The interns often stay, but have any of you asked them why? They would tell you it’s becuase there is life at our church. I don’t apologize for that. The internship is very intense and is not a “fluff program.” You evidently have never attended any of our classes or programs. I am really sorry that you have such a negative opinion. Something has hurt you and I pray God touch your heart and allow his spirit to heal you. No church is perfect, but ours is growing and thriving and pressing forward into the will of God. We love and honor our pastors as the Bible teaches us to. There’s nothing wrong with that!!!
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:24 pm
dear positive influence,
Would you tell John the Baptist that he was just hurt and bitter, and that nobody’s perfect so he should just stop preaching that “repent” message out there in the wilderness (out of a Local Church)?
Just something to think about.
grace
June 3rd, 2007 at 3:05 am
Positive Influence, I attended ACC also for many years. I agree with you that there is a lot of good stuff going on at ACC. The decision to leave for us was heart-breaking due to relationships, many GOOD memories of what God did through the ministry there, etc.
In regard to your comment on the interns staying, I have a few questions for you: Rick has often commented that you should not leave your church over petty issues and that you should be faithful to your church. He laments the fact that people go “church hopping”. I agree with him. Does the same not apply to the interns? By your comment, you seem to be implying that ACC has life and apparently the other churches these interns left to remain at ACC do NOT have life. What quantifies these other churches (which they sent their young people to in good faith that they would return and benefit their home fellowship) as NOT having life? Do they not have “awesome”(TM) worship? Are they not cranking out numbers? Is there lack of hype? OR, are there serious DOCTRINAL issues which would make it IMPERATIVE to leave? If so, why are these churches still MFI affiliated?
I can’t speak for “Notmykid” because I don’t feel exactly the same. I was invested in the ministry there for many years and I love the people there. Was I hurt? Yes. I have to remain obedient to the Lord and trust He will continue to heal me and help me forgive others…because that’s an imperative from the Scriptures!
Our love for our pastors should be no more or no less than the love we have for ANY member in the body of Christ. We are told to SUBMIT to those in authority over us insomuch as THEY are obedient to scripture. We are to respect the man of God for his position, but not ADULATE that man. The MAN is fallible. The God he SERVES is NOT.
To sum up how I feel, a lady named Anna summed this up far better than I could in another post. I feel this post applies to the whole MFI movement in general…not limited to Frank D’s church and not limited to ACC. In fact, this applies to ANY organized church that has replaced pure love for Christ with OTHER things:
June 3rd, 2007 at 4:49 am
No, but I would like to ask him if locust taste like chicken?
‘Scrupe
June 3rd, 2007 at 5:08 am
:) Thanks for that chuckle.
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 am
Positve Influence:
I actually have NOT been hurt by ACC, but I am trying like crazy to keep my son from being hurt by them. I humbly thank God for the gift of discernment. Actually, God’s grace has protected me and I have not been hurt by any church. I have enjoyed a varied religous journey. Trust me when I tell you that I am A-OK with God, church, etc. I am not, however, surprised that an ACC member would think there must be something broken in my life.
I do, in fact, like very many of the people and ACC and know them to be very “good” people. The problem I have is with the leadership as the 12 points I made in my original post outlined 9and a few others I omitted). You don’t defend any those.
I would like to say that I take no pleasure in making the comments I have made. It is not for sport, but like most of the people who comment here, it is out of a deep concern and conviction that there is some major brainwashing that takes place in MFI churches and authority issues that simply are not Biblically sound.
With all due respect, I will also pray for you and for your family and that the TRUTH will be so evident in your lives that you will know that it is only the voice of GOD that is leading you. I pray He also gives you a spirit of courage and discernment so that you can bravely serve Him and only Him.
I also encourage you to continue reading at this blog. There is a lot of wisdom here and people who truly love the Lord, but can’t sit quietly and accept false doctrine.
1 John 2:26-27: I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true — it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
God bless you.
June 3rd, 2007 at 4:57 pm
notmykid said..
Just keep in mind a huge percentage of what goes on here is parody.. think SNL.
Yet there is still a lot of wisdom and insight here also. I would estimate the mean age to be 40+ based on the incidents many people relate, and many of them seasoned Christians, not wet behind the ears and in the puppy love phase of leadership adoration.
June 4th, 2007 at 3:42 am
Gotcha! Point well taken.
I do see the wisdom here though as many of the posts are thoughtfully written. My posts have not been parody, because frankly, I am just not that funny.
I fall into that category of seasoned Christians and try to comment (mostly respectfully) from that place. Puppy love is reckless, unreasonable, and far too dangerous for me to place my spiritual security in.
Thanks for the clarification!
June 4th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Were are you critics coming from. Every orginazition on the planet earth encourages marriage within its own ranks. Try the catholic church which does not recognize marriage outside the church. Be a good dog and find another bone to chew on.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:04 am
oh puh-leaze. Are you serious?
Is that the only point out of the twelve that you refute?
While I don’t necessarily agree that Catholics should only marry other Catholics, at least there are 1,135,729,000 of them in the world to choose from. I hardly think we can compare Catholicism with ACC.
I would compare the ACC marriages more like a tribal thing — keeping it all in the tribe.
Bow wow.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Your sexual innuendos are not welcome here. This is a family site. Please keep it clean.
July 20th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Notmykid makes some excellent points. I have attended ACC many times and the body of Christ there is amazingly wonderful. I have met some great folks there. However, Snow is a different story. I have spoken with many,many pastors over the years and I have never had such a distant and weird feeling when speaking with Snow. He seems to always be ‘on’. Always performing. No warm and fuzzy feeling or the warmth that usually exuberates from most pastors.
His sermons made me feel like I do when I accidentily hear Benny Hinn speak and do his healing thing. Like I need a bath. Teaching the bible is one thing but being in a position of influence and adding YOUR spin is quite another. People take a preacher literally, unfortunately. It is a powerful position and a huge responsibility.
Once I asked Snow about his new digs…house and land and he very quickly diverted the conversation away from that topic. He obviously did not want talk about this subject. As it turns out, the house was built by one of the wealthy ‘pastors’ in the church, maybe at cost, and the land was donated by another wealthy ‘pastor’. By the way, what qualifies a person to be called a ‘pastor’? Neither of these ‘contributing ‘pastors’ have formal schooling. So…wealth = ‘pastor’? mmmm. Makes one wonder. All 3 have Harleys too. Maybe it’s a private club thingy.
Why is a pastor so revered? Always wondered. Closer to the preacher…closer to God? He is a paid employee albeit a teacher and a leader. Decisions are made by the body…the tithers via committees. Snow has too much power.
I too have an issue with all the family members involved in that church and that is one of the reasons I left. At last count, 8 members of snow’s family had paying positions at the church.
I also remember going to my first service and they had a coffee stand. I asked for a cup and the guy behind the counter said that will be $1.85. I was floored. Most churches that I have been to offered coffee for free or you made a donation. Never has it been a profit center.
As for the interns…no one has ever gone back to their own churches. The very idea that you have to pay for the opportunity to work for the church is sad. Sad that it offers courses that are not transferrable to any large degree. Most of the interns do the program and never go to college. What a waste. alot of the folks have amazing potential.
I too have witnessed people speaking in tongues at the drop of a hat. That used to make me sick when I was praying aloud in a group. I mean in and out of their ‘language’ and you just knew it was fake.
I hope your kid(notmykid)gets what he/she needs spiritually.
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Well LiveforHim, I’m not sure. I spent some time in their church (maybe 6-8 years back?) and he sure seemed genuine at the time. In fact, he used to send me Christmas cards for years (when people like Doug wouldn’t even return a phone call). And when I called him to talk over some financial problems I was having, he was very affirming, and he even sent me a bunch of his tapes and books on the subject right after.
I’m not validating his religion, but merely speaking to his personhood. I have to say he made quite a positive impression on me, but then again that was compared to the abuse I was getting at CBC.
That being said people change (I’m sure he and I would probably not be able to agree on a single subject these days!
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:53 am
While I can see what you are saying, Live, I also have to agree with DBML here regarding Rick’s personality. He’s not a “warm fuzzy” kind of person, but he WAS always available to meet with anyone in the church who asked him, whether someone high up in the “Harley Club” gang or a relative “paeon”. My initial impression of him was that he was cold and inaccessible, however that wasn’t the case.
I’m with you about having so much family on staff by the way. It’s one of those things that just doesn’t “look” right and gives the impression that the church is really a family business rather than a body where leadership giftings of others in the body are utilized. However, I’ve heard from current members that some of Rick’s family members are no longer at ACC. So, the number has dropped down from 8 to about 4 or 5.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:25 am
I don’t know enough about his personal character to comment, but I have seen him be quite be quite manipulative as the “spiritual authority”. Not cool and definitely difficult to follow if you happen to like integrity.
The pressure is still on to get our son to do the internship — FEAR mode is in high gear — as in, “If you don’t do this, you will surely fail”. How arrogant does it get and how sick is it to live your life in fear mode? Where’s the faith??? How dare they speak that crap into our son’s life!
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:43 am
Some of his family members went off to work with/for a city church in Washington state. That way the pipeline/network is secure.
I agree with notmykid…that spiritual covering/authority stuff is rampant at ACC. Talk about confusing folks. If you have any issues, ie - broken, you are seeking the Lord with ferver and intead of sincere help based on biblical fact/teachings, you get constant sermons on following the pastors blindly not to mention opening your purse/wallet at every turn. No wonder Snow invite Bevere to guest preach at every opportunity. Bevere underscores everything Snow preaches…outside of what the bible teaches us.
Anybody have any comments/information about Snow’s educational background? I just find it a bit like the blind leading the blind.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 am
liveforhim wrote: “for a city church in Washington state..”
liveforhim: I would be interested in what city and address because I live in the same state. Thanks!
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Live, I can’t disagree with you there.
The constant preaching on the tithe and being told to “just trust the pastor” are among the reasons why we left. I don’t see people there being encouraged to be Bereans. As I mentioned earlier, it wasn’t always that way….mainly just since ACC came under the MFI covering.
Rick still has some good teachings, but the good messages are lost in the constant “generosity factor” tithe messages and entreaties to givef.
As far as the people of the congregation in general go…by and large wonderful folks. I worry for the young ones, though. I sum this group of youth/college as “zeal without knowledge”. At least, that’s how they were several years ago. So much fervor, but many of them don’t have much biblical knowledge beyond Malachi chapter 3.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:56 pm
They went to work with non other than Judah Smith at his Generation Church. It was Billy Huffman and his wife. The connection gets even stronger…eh?
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Live, do you know with certainty that they’re working with Generation Church? I’m pretty much out of the loop since I’ve been away from ACC for some time, but I’d heard that Bill accepted a non-pastoral position at City Church (multi-media, I thought) because he did not feel that it was God’s season for him to continue to be a youth pastor at this time. If he truly felt called to go to Seattle and realized that he wasn’t called (at least at this time) to be a youth pastor at ACC, this is a GOOD thing (IMO) and shows willingness to obey the Lord rather than continuing to fill a position he’s not supposed to be in. For that, I really admire him.
July 24th, 2007 at 5:58 am
FormerACC…I don’t know what position he took. I just knew he had gone there. I would be curious why he went so far to do that?
July 24th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Don’t know. Any assumptions I make would just be speculation and not necessarily fact since I don’t know his heart and the circumstances that led him there.
If I were him, I wouldn’t have gone from one MFI church to another one that is even UN-healthier! YIKES! But, I hope that the Lord will help him draw even closer to Himself and give him wisdom.
August 1st, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Just wanted to let you all know that our son opted NOT to do the ACC internship and he has left ACC! Yea! The process has been gradual and painful for him as he leaves good people he really cares about and faces rejection since he was not “sent” out. He managed the intense pressure (Leadership, including the pastor and an elder, telling him that he will fail, he is doing the wrong thing, and certainly can’t be doing God’s will). Praise God he is OUT now and free to worship elsewhere! The shackles are GONE!
August 1st, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Bill and Jenn went to Seattle because God called them there. Do they need more reason than that? They are amazing pastors. I completed the internship the first year it began. It was definitely challenging, inspiring, and well worth what I paid. I even went on to college afterwards. After college, I got the opportunity to teach a class at the internship and I can assure you they are learning life skills and a Biblical education.
If your child wants to sign up for the internship, I can’t understand why you would have a problem with that. This is an investment in their future. The internship prepares young people for the future. It builds confidece, and it helps individuals learn what they’re good at and what they really has a passion for. I really think you should reconsider.
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:03 am
Notmykid:
I’ll pray for your kid! Glad to hear that he is free to serve elsewhere. You know, it’s hard to leave somewhere where you’ve been invested in the ministry. Leaving can be made even harder because of the undue pressure exerted on you to stay (ie: leaving is out of God’s will, you weren’t released by leadership to leave, etc). I hope he has found a good healthy and non-controlling church in the area in which to grow.
Cherish:
I’m glad to hear that you benefited from the internship. While there are undoubtedly great things about the program, the concerns that many of us have about the internship (not just at ACC, but at other MFI churches ) seem very valid to us. Would you mind answering a few questions since you have an insider’s perspective?
1. Many churches have internship programs for training future potential leaders, but they don’t charge a fee for this. In fact, some interns get a nominal salary for the work they do at the church. I won’t “go the route” of asking you how much you paid for your internship, but….
a. How many actual hours of time at the church/in church ministry were you required or encouraged to spend per week?
b. What specific training did you receive (accreditations, hands-on ministry experience, etc?)
2. A major concern people have is that other churches release their young people to attend these internships only to have them remain at ACC rather than going back to the church that sent them out in good faith.
a. Were you sent out from a different church, or were you already a
member at ACC before you began the program?
b. If you WERE sent from another church originally, did you ever return to your church?
c. What percentage of people in your internship program stayed at ACC rather than going back to their home churches, and what BIBLICAL reason did those staying at ACC have to stay? The reason I ask this is because ACC and other MFI churches speak of strong responsibility to remain at your church despite problems you see within that church because you are basically in a “covenant” relationship with your church, but this perspective does not seem to apply to those remaining at ACC after leaving other churches. Your thoughts?
August 2nd, 2007 at 4:31 am
FormerACCmember wrote:
I skimmed your reply and thought you wrote:
August 2nd, 2007 at 7:54 am
Let’s HOPE that’s not the case!
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:04 am
Cherish,
I appreciate the thoughts and glad you found what you wanted from the internship. Reconsidering is not an option — trust me. I want no part of anything going on with that leadership there. Fear is NOT a motivator and frankly, I am pretty sure just it p ***** God off. I do pray for the very nice folks who attend ACC.
I am also interested in your responses to FormerACCMember.
FormerACCMember, out of curiousity, I have no idea who you are, but I wonder if you attend a local church now with other former ACC members? Our son is exploring one now and seems to be impressed.
Oh, happy day!
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I think that ACC refugees are scattered pretty much all over Fayette (and even Coweta) counties.
Suffice it to say I’ve visited just about every church in the area and have said hello to many an old acquaintances and friends along the way.
August 2nd, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Notmykid, I respect your opinion and admire your concern for you child. How old does a young adult have to be to make their own decisions though? Especially if this a decision that they feel God is calling them to. Just be careful, and don’t underestimate if your son is actually hearing from God.
I would happy to provide some inside insight. This is coming from someone who did the internship, went on to college, and is fulfilling God’s purpose in my life. The internship is very similar to college — The number of hours you put in is what you’re going to get out of it. Everyone is different. Many interns love spending their time at the church. I worked four days a week while I was interning, so I wasn’t necessarily there as much. It’s no secret though, if you are signing up for the internship, it is a HUGE commitment. It is designed that way, and its designed to be life changing, every part of your life.
I learned a lot of lessons that could have only been taught there. I’m a smart student, I’m well behaved, but I definitely had some issues through my mom dying when I was young and just being spoiled. During the internship I had to learn how to say yes ma’am and just do it without asking why. There’s something about a group of young people with the same purpose, with the same goal, focused and determine to be changed, to seek God and discover the purpose for their life. I did receive a degree which I still had on my resume. The degree is really only for students who are interested in going into full time ministry. I am in public relations, so my experience is simply listed as an internship where I study abroad, participated in event planning, and biblical studies. Some of other training experienced during the internship would be leadership, boldness, and discipline.
I was already a member when I first did the internship. I was about to graduate high school when Bill and Jenn told me about the program, and I wasn’t exactly sure what I wanted to major in. I thought it would be a good experience to take some time out for myself, seek God’s purpose for my life, and just get really grounded before I experience some of the temptations that would be coming in college. A lot of high school graduates aren’t sure what they want to do right when they graduate. I believe the internship is a perfect place for someone to take time and invest in themselves and really learn how to hear the voice of God.
There are some interns that have went back to their church. The program is still young. That says something about the church if the interns like it so much that they want to stay there. They feel valued, they feel like they’re being used. No one tells them they can’t leave!
Because I was in the first class, the majority of the people in my class were already at ACC. If I’m not mistaken, everyone was except one. He was still from GA though. He went his church occasionally.
I understand your concern about various interns not returning home, but I think these young people are old enough to decide where they think God has called them. People that intern for a year, especially two years, are completely different people and maybe the idea of returning home would prevent them from growing. Some interns do return home, some get married and continue to serve at ACC. I’m very close friends with a lot of these individuals, and most of them are very happy with their season of life. Maybe I’m young, and I just don’t see things how some of the other people posting do. The internship, like any program, has benefits and weaknesses. You can’t say there hasn’t been any fruit from this ministry or that God isn’t moving. Don’t judge by just looking on the outside, you’re missing something.
August 2nd, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Cherish, I am so glad that the internship worked out for you. I am sure that some of the classes were beneficial. I have attended ACC many times and I have seen, first-hand, the work that the interns do. I would suspect that even your decision was highly influenced by ACC ‘leadership’ under the auspices of it being a God calling. The negative comments made by Snow and others…that it’s ACC or failure is one horrible way to minister to someone who places trust in leadership and, as some have unfortunately done, blind trust.
I would be very interested in knowing the number of interns who went back to their churches. The program must be 4-5 years old(based on you attending the program and then going to college) and that means that 15-20 people have been through it. Yes, the fact that most, if not all, stayed MAY be because they deemed ACC to be great but it may also be because they were pressured to stay. In any event, many who attend church are broken and seek healing and are vulnerable. It is not leadership to take advantage of weakness and pressure people or make them feel like they will fall if they do not remain at your church. Church hopping is no answer but discernment in one’s life is a must and it looks as though NoymyKid’s son has discerned that ACC is not for him. To his credit, he IS attending another church and is seeking to grow/mature in his walk among non-judgemental and encouraging christians.
August 2nd, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Cherish, I think it’s ok for interns to stay at ACC. There is something to be said for new wine not being put in old wineskins. And, most youth go off to college and end up living far from home. It’s the way of youth, not just ACC interns.
But, I’d caution you about the Saying Yes Maam and not asking questions. That is NOT healthy. Any leader who won’t allow themselves to be questioned is on a power trip and not worthy of being followed. What makes ANY pastor above being questioned? What are they afraid of from a bleating lamb?
For what it’s worth, I met Mrs. Snow at a conference at my former church. She was very kind to me in a season where my own pastor’s wife was being demeaning. She publicly encouraged me and built me up privately throughout the weekend.
God bless.
August 3rd, 2007 at 2:57 am
Cherish,
Thank you for addressing those concerns and sharing your experience. From what I’ve seen, I’m sure the interns work very hard and want to serve the Lord. However, I have to say that I wholeheartedly agree with KariMichelle’s concerns:
Major “red flags” arise with any church that encourages blind obedience. We’re told to TEST ALL things and to be Bereans. It’s part of the learning process.
I’m glad your intern experience was positive, and that you were blessed by your time there. There are (or were….don’t know who all is there after three years) lots of great folks at ACC.
August 3rd, 2007 at 6:23 am
Amen and ditto to LiveforHim, FormerACCMember and KariMichelle!
Without getting into specifics, let’s just say that the leadership behavior is egocentric and was certainly not very Godly in our experience.
And, for the record, there simply isn’t a debate or reconsideration here. He will NOT be attending and he decided that for himself once he discovered the Biblical evidence that totally dismisses the policies and some of the questionable doctrine at ACC. The kid does have a brain that he can use on his own!
Look, Cherish, you gotta do what you gotta do and no one judges you for that (leadership, yes — members, no). All we ask is for the same respect — this is not a fit for us. Leadership needs to back off (to put it nicely, but I do mean it strongly) of our kid.
I don’t mean to be unkind — just want to be firm and clear. God bless you in your journey.
August 3rd, 2007 at 10:58 am
How many of you who went “away” to college, REAL college, returned to your hometown? I would venture a guess as to very few of you. Why should going “away” to a church internship program yield any different results.
It seems like most involved in the internship programs, from the discussions above, are kids just graduating from high school or in the year or 2 after, much like people attending a REAL college. So I would think the rate of return to home after internship at an “away” church would be similar to that of going to a REAL college.
Those of you who have/do attend BT/CBC, look how many of the kids who have attended there are still attending there or have not returned to their “sending” flock… CBC is FULL of pew warmer wannabes.
August 3rd, 2007 at 11:56 am
The marketing for the intern program includes comments about going back to your home church with the newly acquired knowledge/disciplines. The fact is most don’t and are encouraged to remain at ACC/CBC/BT.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
With certain connections comes some familiarity.
I would urge caution with Atlanta City Church.
‘nuf said.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I don’t think anyone gets your hidden meaning Word in Time. Ya might wanna elaborate for the group. Go ahead…speak up.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
My meaning is as clear as I can make it without saying something I perhaps should not say.
If it were me, I would not send a son/daughter/relative/friend/fellow believe to ACC.
OK, perhaps that is more clear than urging caution, but it is about as clear as I care to make at this point.
You won’t find me taking the risk of remaining around ACC.
August 6th, 2007 at 8:52 am
word in time said: my meaning is as clear as I can make it without saying something I perhaps should not say.
word in time: thanks for sharing what you have shared; i can appreciate the fact that you don’t want to say too much; nevertheless, by keeping all of your comments so vague and general, i feel that the sense you communicate could seem even worse than if you were to share more; by more, i do not mean that you have to share names, dates or addresses, or specifics but i would appreciate more facts, feelings or IMO observations.
e.g., if you were single and open to meeting someone i knew, if I said “Oh, no! you don’t want to meet that person…don’t ask me why, just trust me that it is in your own best interest to stay as far away from them as possible” how would that make you feel? Or, would you prefer me to say, “Oh, yes, i can introduce you to them, my experience has been that they are very, very shy, but I might be wrong, and too shy for me might not mean too shy for you.”
With the latter approach, i allow you to make up my mind about whether or not you want to meet this person: i don’t make up your mind for you.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Word in Time,
Thank you for sharing as you feel you can. I do agree with David’s comments about sharing and perhaps you will feel inclined to do so.
I am more concerned with your statement
. If you are in the process of leaving ACC, please be prepared for the fear, obligation and guilt that will be laid on you. After that comes the shunning. Isn’t it interesting that Christ never shunned anyone?
These are painful things to deal with and very disillusioning. Know that you are in my prayers. Keep your head high and just walk away. Know there are many, many loving churches in the area that do not use these tactics.
In the case of “spiritual authority”, know that you are just as “Christian” as anyone else who has received Christ (including the leaders and long-time Christians). It’s Pharisees who believe they are better than others and who dictiate according to THEIR rules.
I leave you with this: 1 John 2:26-27 — I am writing these things to warn you about those who want to lead you astray. But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within YOU so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true –it is not a lie. So just as he has tuaght you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
God bless you.
August 6th, 2007 at 11:01 am
In my experience, there hasn’t been any outright shunning, but the phone calls and invitations to dinner did indeed cease. Folks there only have time to fellowship with you if you’re a contributing member