Posted on May 25th, 2007 by David Mackin into the David Mackin Writes: category
Several years ago, I attended a Benny Hinn crusade in the Tacoma Dome. After the crusade ended, I left the dome and started walking to my car. On the way to my car, I saw Gary and Sue (names changed), sr. pastors of a very large church walking to their vehicle. I had not seen them for quite some time, and I had developed somewhat of a friendship with Gary previous to this when I was his "speech coach" for his speaking parts in our former church's Christmas special that was shown on local TV many years previous. I spontaneously ran up to them and got Gary's attention by saying something spiritually crazy. He responded so smoothly to my overture that it appeared for a second that we had rehearsed the entire scene! We genuinely laughed. I felt it was a good moment and hoped that we could play some "catch-up." No sooner had we exchanged "hi's," than Sue said to her husband: "Honey, my feet hurt!…I want to go home!" Her comment brought our brief encounter to a screeching halt. We said our good-byes and left.
In retrospect, I wished that I had had enough on-the-spot ingenuity to respond to Sue's comment with something like, "Hey, Sue, we just came out of a Benny Hinn healing crusade! How could your feet hurt? They should have been healed in the meeting!" - but I didn't.
I want to believe that Sue's feet hurt her so badly that night that unless Gary had driven her home right away to soak them, that something really bad was going to happen to her health. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. But, for some reason, I just can't do that. Even though she is one of the "senior pastors" of a mega church, I felt at that moment that she stooped to "faking it." And, why? possibly so that she would not have to "waste" her time talking with someone that was no longer an active member in her church movement?! This is a good question, and I don't claim to know all that was happening in Sue's heart - or happening in her feet! - that night, but I have a general theory.
I have noticed, along with others on this blog as well, that once church members leave a local church or church movement and go somewhere else that the Mother Church (or headquarters) says is "on the fringe" or "not the norm" or "not sent out from us" or "can't help build my ministry anymore" or "they used to be leaders but now…" or "they are not in a 'local church'" - they avoid all contact and converation with such people. Such un-Christlike behavior reminds me of the priest and the Levite who avoided a situation demanding compassion (
Luke 10:31-32).
In my view, this is both sad and sick. Something is indeed wrong with the Church and its leaders. Where is the unity of the Spirit? Why do we allow our local churches and ministry hierarchies to divide us from one another? This is especially shameful for those who are "leaders" and "shepherds" of God's people!? In what pastor/leaders can we truly find the genuine and unselfish love of God these days?
May 25th, 2007 at 7:55 am
I suppose your theory about this situation could be true, but I find it equally possible that her feet really did hurt and it might be reaching to read too much into that isolated situation. I can imagine someone who is well known like Wendell who while on the way out ran into 28 other people like you who wanted to talk and catch up and she just lost it. I’ll bet any man can tell you that when your wife or girlfriend starts whining and being cranky it’s usually easier to make her happy than do what you want.
(What the heck just happened? I think I just defended Wendell Smith!)
May 25th, 2007 at 10:34 am
Former Inner Circle Member said: …it might be reaching…
Former Inner Circle Member: I agree that my example might be a reach. I tried to include in the post enough qualifications, but fear that I may not have done so. I am now thinking about contacting Gini directly, to tell her how I felt and to give her a chance to tell me her side of the story. Even though her feet may have really been killing her and I probably could have used a better illustration to make my point, my heart was still offended at the time and it seemed to me as a deliberate manipulation. On the other hand, maybe my sharing of such a story shows that I am still hyper-sensitive to pastors and need more inner healing.
If you were me, would you contact her and talk to her about it?
May 25th, 2007 at 10:44 am
From my chair…looking into my monitor…your story seems hyper-sensitive.
But that’s not to say it is.
What’s unknown is the level of relationship you truly had with Wendell/Gini previously. Were you closer to Wendell than Gini? How close? Was the closeness only on “your” side, or was it mutual?
Only you, Wendell, and Gini truly know.
My guess is that Gini wouldn’t even have a clue what you are talking about and not recall the brief moment in time that effected you so heavily. That’s a common occurrence not only in church leadership, but in life!
Perhaps there’s someone out there that desired your attention once that didn’t get the result they wanted and left hurt?
If anything your story is a good reminder to all of us to not only take “our” time to be kind to everyone, but to allow our spouses/children/friends to use “their” time to be kind too. Even in the situations that seem relatively insignificant.
Again, from where I sit, your story seems a little “conspiracy theorist’ish” to me…but that’s just my take. Your perspective is closer and perhaps didn’t come through effectively.
:)
May 25th, 2007 at 10:44 am
I wasn’t trying to disagree with you, just pointing out that the example could be read two ways. But I do know of specific examples where pastors and guest speakers were intentionally shielded from the public at CBC. They seem to forget that pastoring means spending time with people - it’s their job!
Honestly, I don’t know of any positive outcome from contacting her on this point, unless it’s to apologize for being offended at her perhaps unnecessarily, and that will make you feel better. I think you just need to let it go - forgive and forget. If that doesn’t appeal to you, you could mail her some fuzzy slippers or a foot massager at Christmas.
May 25th, 2007 at 11:43 am
David: I completely agree with the heart of your comment:
This is one of the primary ills of CBC/MFI/”legalistic Christianity” (I know, oxymoron). This “you’re either one of us or OUT” is one of the primary traits of cults. I experienced this at CBC, and it was simultaneously crushing and liberating; crushing because I felt so rejected by those I had poured my life into and liberating because having finally glimpsed their true natures, I was grateful to be free of them. In order to protect my own anonymity, I will refrain from telling my entire story, but suffice it to say that I was victimized while on the mission field (sent by CBC) and instead of loving me and walking through healing with me, the leaders and my friends at CBC told me that my trauma was my fault, my doing, and after treating me like a freak-show for awhile, they ostracized me. Because they think that they can insulate themselves from harm by their behavior, their lists of do’s and don’t’s, their minds literally could not compute what happened to me. They did the only thing they know to do in their mind-set: attribute my disaster to my behavior and re-classify me as “another potential leader bites the dust.”
Here’s some irony for you: The very same leaders who welcomed me to “their world” with “we’re so fortunate to have someone of your caliber” talk are those whose parting words to me were “you took yourself outside of God’s protective covering, you were on a bad path and you brought this on yourself.” I thank God that even in the aftermath of my overseas trauma and the secondary trauma of being ostracized by “my people,” God gave me the ability to reject their theology, look them in the eye and walk out the door. Now, when I see those I was close to, the vast majority of them cannot look me in the eye. It’s mostly “out of sight, out of mind” for them. For those of us who have left, we cannot benefit them, cannot assist them in building their own kingdoms, so they write us off. I think it’s wrong, unbiblical and not Christ-like, but in their self-righteousness, they do not see. Fortunately, I do not care a lick what they think of me. If we care what they think of us, then we have some dysfunction we need to address. They’re our former abusers for all intent and purposes, right? Well, I’ve forgiven them. I understand them because I used to be them. Thank God I am no longer living under that legalistic bondage. Thank God that most of us here are not.
Because of their legalism and inflated, elitist views of themselves, they cannot conceive that anyone would reject THEM; their belief system literally requires them to twist our leaving to them rejecting US. I get it. It’s sick, but I get it. God help them. It’s SO not about them, but they don’t know that yet. When they realize it, I will pity them. I pity them now, actually, very much.
David, hopefully this makes some sense???
May 25th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I can certainly agree with your comments on the elitism that develops in church leadership, but Wow, you need to let some of this stuff go. And please, for your own sake, don’t call Gini and ask her to explain why she said her feet hurt after a Benny Hinn concert several years ago.
May 25th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
I tend to take things people say at “face value”. I find it’s simpler to live this way, then to try and “re-interpret” what people say, as if there is always a hidden meaning or motive behind what they’ve said.
If Gini said her feet hurt, then I would give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe she’d been standing a long time with bad shoes (certainly not unusual for someone who puts looking good over comfort), etc… I’d say that if she said her feet hurt, then indeed.. her feet hurt.
Now.. a person’sactions, on the other hand, speak louder then their words.
In this regard, only you and Gini (and perhaps Wendell) can know what truly transpired. If she was walking around doing jumping jacks, then odds are high she used the “feet hurting” as a way to get her husband out of talking to you. (A typicall pastor’s wife duty, I imagine, to help her husband escape unwanted situations..)
But if she stood there holding her shoes, in her stockings, and really looked to be in pain, tired, suffering, whatever… then ya… I think Wendell should put his wife’s needs first. I think it would have behooved him to perhaps mention that it was nice to see you and maybe you could do coffee or something… but other then that, I don’t see what is the problem.
Remember that even Jesus conspired to get himself away from the crowds once in a while… so I don’t think it’s bad when a pastor (or a pastor’s wife) needs to do the same thing. (Assuming it’s not a constant thing, where they never spend any time with anyone else besides their chosen few, etc…)
May 25th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
…I remember a few years back Gini was wearing a brace of some sort on her foot and ankle…I think at that time her feet may have legitimantely been hurting her. Just a thought…
May 25th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Good grief; annoying bunions and corns and swollen ankles are hallmark ailments of pastors’ wives. We get it already.
Do you think we could talk about it–analyze it, speculate it, ponder–some more? Good thing we have a long weekend.
May 26th, 2007 at 7:51 am
David , are you serious?
Jesus said in the last days offenses will be many- based on this post I say Jesus is coming back by the end of the month.
I now truly believe the critics of this blog to some degree. Grow up and stop looking under every rock for some encounter to read into MFI people’s actions and use it to show yourself to be the victim of “spiritual abuse”, all this does is take away from the real abuses that have occured and illegitamize genuine biblical concerns.
We all stumble in many ways hopefully we can acknowledge them and turn from them.
May 26th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Obviously David, you’ve never worn women’s shoes!
May 26th, 2007 at 9:22 am
OK, clearly most people who blog here are more interested in commenting on the example David used to illustrate a point rather than the point itself. SO, while I think the example is kind of beside the point, I’ll weigh in: as a woman, I’m well-aware of how much one’s feet can hurt when one chooses to wear 1-hour-shoes-better-off-for-sitting to a stand-for-several-hours event (I’ve done that myself so many times that my husband now asks me when we leave the house: “Are those walking shoes or sitting shoes?”). I also understand the exhaustion that comes at the end of a long night (which tops a long day, long week, etc.). So, maybe Gini Smith really did have hurt feet. If so, is blurting that out within moments of seeing an old friend/acquaintance/whatever really mature? Maybe the best thing would have been for her to excuse herself and sit in her car and rest for a few minutes, a “socially appropriate” length of time before she insisted on going home. We all are guilty of an occasional faux paux, right?
With all due respect: now that we’ve commented far too much on the example of David’s point, can we now get back to addressing his point?????? Please forgive my sarcasm. It’s just that, given David’s other comments on this blog, my impression is that he is not a petty person but a thinker and a lover of God and His Word…who was very close to many “leaders” at BT and has had more than his share of angst over that. So, let’s give him a break for using perhaps a less-than-optimal example to make his point, OK?
May 26th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
You are all missing the point. People at that church thought Dave Mackin as too intense and challenging. Some thought he was good for laugh now and then. There is nothing he can do about it except go up to Gini and say, YOU HAVE TO LIKE ME, PLEASE LIKE ME, IF YOU DON’T I’M GOING TO MAKE YOU VERY UNCOMFORTABLE., which will totally prove their opinion about him as true.
Dave, you need a GREAT BIG HUG. YOU ARE GOOD GUY WITH A BIG HEART THAT DEEPLY WANTS TO BE LOVED. You have nothig to prove to the likes of Wendell and can totally out class the leadership there.
(I’m confuse about one thing, if you are so against CBC and their operation why are you supporting the likes of Benny Hinn? )
May 26th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
No, YOU are missing the point! ‘Scrupe wears women’s shoes!!!
May 26th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
David, you should have offered her a foot massage.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Sheesh… all the woman had to do was use the car key in her purse and go sit in the car and wait for her man to come drive her home. She was rather petty and rude to interrupt the conversation in such a manner.
May 28th, 2007 at 5:15 am
From what I read, it sounds like her feet REALLY hurt and she wanted to get off of them.
I would HOPE if I were there that I’d have the grace at the time to say something to the effect of, “Hey, it’s great to see you again. My feet are killing me, though, and I need to get off of them ASAP. Why don’t we go get some coffee so we can sit down and you guys can catch up for awhile?”
Still, when it’s been a long day (and I can imagine that someone might feel drained after a long Benny Hinn crusade!), you may not really feel like standing around and chatting and might act in a manner quite so accommodating.
May 28th, 2007 at 11:14 am
As Free Indeed pointed out, there are a couple of things going on in the story. There is the principle of how leadership relates to people, and there is the example.
Granted, the example may be flawed because Gini is human, and thus subject to tired feet (even if caused by vanity over comfort), crankiness, ungracious behavior, etc. I’m sure David is mature enough to overcome offense with forgiveness.
But the story highlights the attitude of “Leadership” in regards to those in their church, and those who have left. I’m sure every one of us has a similar example. Each of these instances brings an offense because we know that the church is not supposed to operate this way.
There is an interesting article by J.H. Allen about the “Nicolaitans” on biblestudy.org . Here are a couple of excerpts:
And later:
Now I realize it’s a bit much to accuse Gini of Nicolaitan error based on a snipey comment in the parking lot. But I think we can agree that David has had a long-standing relationship with BT/CBC leadership, and saw that this was just one incident in a long history of such behavior.
Forgive the incident? — yes. Overlook the Nicolaitan mindset? — no.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
The leadership at CBC churches didn’t act this way only to people after they left the church. While I attended several years ago, they were that same way with people who attended the church. If you were not in the upper ranks you had access only by appointment. There has always been a separation of leadership and the “sheep”.
In addition, friends who were not in leadership also faded away. Once I realized the only time we got together was by my initiation, I waited for initiation which never came. I think it is too intimidating to see someone happy and surviving on the “outside” without the “Umbrella of Church” sheilding them from “satan’s attacks”.
Gini acted this way to church members without predudice. She was friendly when she needed something and rude most other times. If you think she’s rude when her feet are hurting you should have been around when she was PG!
Good thing for her, she married such an obedient husband!
With that said, we all must realize that the church is made up of hurting people with inner wounds covered by external appearences. Gini herself was from a very difficult childhood with step-fathers coming and going. Her survival skills include looking beautiful and riding on the wave of her husband’s ’success”.
I can only feel sad for the leadership, sad for the congregation and SO GLAD I’m no longer a part of that big show. I too was there because of deep personal wounds, and a belief that the experiences of “God” were unique to Christians there.
Thank God I am now free to live outside the box while licking the wounds that only gracious, loving God can heal. We all need to grasp the depth of that love and breath easy. I don’t have to perform to be loved.
May 28th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
I know what you’re talking about. When my eyes began to be opened to the fact that TCC is not God’s greatest gift to mankind since Jesus, over time I started to feel more and more shunned from the congregation. People who used to hang out with me and talk to me all the time never even cared to say hi to me at a service. The only time most of my old acquaintances would talk to me was to come and tell me that they’ve been “burdened for me in their spirit” as if my blatant lack of caring or desire to be there was to be spiritually discerned. I noticed that if I don’t call anyone, noone bothers calling me unless they felt the urge to call me and tell me that something’s not right and I need to get right with God. Funny thing is, I feel more right with God than I have in my entire life.
But while I was zealous for The City Church, I was in the upper tier and accepted by the elite of the church. Once I started to change my views on all of their doctrines, immediately I was out of the inner circle. But to be perfectly honest, it was the most amazing feeling to finally be out of that circus and feel like I had my life back. For the first time in years, I felt free and liberated. And I started to see the elitist attitude more than I ever had.
Nor for my two cents to add to this discussion. I belive that this elitist attitude stems from a number of doctrines taught there, namely the whole “spiritual authority” crock and this whole teaching that has been growing stronger there lately that you get places in God’s kingdom by being a servant to the person “over you”. It’s this little “nose up authority’s butt” doctrine that teaches that you get places by hanging out with people who are higher on the spiritual food chain than you are, and let us not forget it’s poster boy, Doug Lasit.
My question is, how is this not EXACTLY how the rest of the world operates their businesses? Have we merchandized Christianity to be big business, and are they properly called pastors or should they be titled CEO’s?
May 28th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
I wonder how many of us ex-er’s who used to be in the upper tier there are out there? I have been silently reading for several days. How many are silent-but-reading…? Check in. Just curious. I am also wondering how many of you I know and have known. I was certainly close to Gini. That is totally Gini and I don’t think you should take it personally, David. It’s about her; not about you. I worked in the Pastoral building. There were only a handful of pastors who did not meet at the bottom of the stairs and discuss how someone was backsliding and needed to get right with God. A HANDFUL! I think that started my demise. Believe me…the higher in the tier, the more cynical they were.
May 28th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Have you ever listened to Judah Smith’s “Mistaken Love” sermon? (the short version, not the long one) It’s been awhile since I’ve listened to it, but I seem to remember it addressed some of this.
May 28th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
I was actually there when he preached that sermon. I don’t really care for Judah’s line of logic to excuse the elitism that can be blatantly found in these churches. When the pastor gives the impression that he/she is better than the congregation, that right there is completely against everything the NT is about. Interwoven throughout the Bible is the theme of pride vs. humility; do you really think that it’s a humble thing to try and excuse your not wanting to talk to someone? As a pastor especially you should want to be above reproach and not offend people.
I personally am so sick of hearing pastors from these churches telling people not to get offended that they never talk to them or give them the time of day and basically say that the people who aren’t leaders aren’t worth their time. Well maybe you should’ve read the job description a little better, it says PASTOR not CEO. Maybe you should’ve thought of that before trying to grow your church to 10,000. Hey, remember where Jesus said that only a fool doesn’t count the cost of what they’re building before they build it? Have Pastor Frank and Pastor Wendell truly counted the cost of what they’re building?
May 29th, 2007 at 4:09 am
David Mackin said: “If you were me, would you contact her and talk to her about it?”
No.
Was Gini being cranky and even perhaps petty? Obviously. But given the length and intensity (I assume) of the meeting, not hard to understand. She always kind of leaned that way with me, too, way back when. I think that was just her personality, like her mom.
Should Wendell have, as suggested above, been a bit more gracious and offered to catch up with you later in a more convenient venue? For sure.
But, I can sympathize. He’s got a cranky wife on his hands…what’s he gonna do? Maybe she was simply irritated/jealous at you two having a good laugh together when her dogs were barkin’.
FWIW, Wendell once admitted to us in class that Gini was far from the classic shrinking-violet image of the model pastor’s wife, and even went so far as to say that SHE was the one who came up with 90% of their youth material at that time.
So Dave, I say be the bigger man and just let the whole thing slide. Especially since this happened “several years ago.”
joebib
May 29th, 2007 at 6:05 am
Dave
I woke up thinking of this blog and had to respond that I don’t think you are being petty -and can’t understand why people are missing the real point here.
Your ‘incident’ while may seem petty or little but so went to the core of that
experience in these churches –we were just the ‘little people’.
It is an attitude that prevailed and when I read this blog it so totally confrims that behavior was something the leaders there both ‘caught and taught’ each other.
Now it is being passed on down to the next generation of their children who are taking over the church and it’s not just Wendell’s son who is in that position.
How the rest of you can stomach hearing Judah’s sermon’s once you’re out of there is well beyond me –it must take a giant bottle of excedrin just to get through it. They are so obviously twisted and as someone earlier said you
realize once you are out- what cult -like thinking it was.
We mine as well fly to the Oceans 13 premiere and worship at the feet of Brad Pitt and George Clooney and make them our new idols as to stay in these churches and keep worshipping these people any longer or excusing their obviously blatently immature behavior. Do leaders have bad days? Absolutely! Are they human of course —just read about Paul who would ‘lose his temper’ but when there is real love there you feel it.
Its all about serving them and I can’t think the apple falls far from the tree.
Since I didn’t go to Portland I can only belive now that my leaders got this attitude hook line and sinker from Dick Iverson —what else accounts for
this pattern that keeps repeating itself by those who were trained there.
As I tell my friends still in MFI land –church does not have to be PAINFUL!
Bottom line: I left because I just don’t want to do church like that any more.
Beleive me where you find somewhere –admittedly rare these days —where
the pastors actually love & serve the people it is like holding a rare gold coin after having held fake ones for years!
Keep going and tell your stories –because they only symbolize what is wrong there. In the end the Lord will show if or when to say anything —as He has told me many times –don’t even waste your words there. Only He knows the hearts.
Glad you shared the story as it brought up more dross here that just got
cleaned out.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:26 am
David,
Having spent much time with CBC/MFI leadership and traveling often to the CC, all I can say is that it’s as simple as this: Gini is really whiney and self-centered, even to those on the “in”. IMO contacting her will have no result, other than to make you look crazy.
Free Indeed
Spot on. Through probably not as extreme, sounds like we had the same experience. I’m done with it though, and surprisingly happy not to have to deal with those people anymore.
It wasn’t so easy for my significant other. She was very close to several people, especially Donna, so when she started to be on the “outside” (leaving PBC to go to PSU) it really hurt her. At first she was in denial (Donna’s really busy, that’s why she has to cancel every one of our coffee dates at the last minute) but then it started to sink in. I think the last straw was when Donna no-showed without calling, leaving her sitting at starbucks staring at her cellphone for two hours. I think it’s been about three years now, and she still hasn’t called to apologize or reschedule
.
Bringing up a third topic here. One of the things that bugs me is the constant drive-by sniping comments from CC/CBCers saying things like “get over it”, “move on”, etc, and I think David’s post might attract more of that.
For the record we have moved on. We’re not still sitting at the starbucks, hopping we get a phone call. Even though we might be disappointed, we don’t hold anything against Doug/Donna/Judah/Gini personally. What we object to is the unhealthy, un-Christian culture of CBC/CC/BT/PBC/GC/MFI/… that takes the wonderful Donna that we used to know, (who at one point had to back out of her worship commitments to have time to attend PSU) and turned her into what she is now. What we object to is the system that takes the awesome Doug Lasit who used to be relevant, and turns him into the lapdog he has become. We can’t get over that because the machine is still running. It’s taking our friends and either assimilating them into the collective, or spitting them out, wounded and scarred.
Love the people, hate the machine.
Peace
May 29th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Doug Broke My Leg,
I’m with you in that I’m done with it, don’t hold a grudge, and am happy to not have to live UNDER the bondage there anymore. I also share your sentiments about how both Doug and Donna have transformed (digressed?) from the people I knew & loved 10-15 years ago. We may know each other if you were close to them back then, because I was, too. Being female, I perhaps understand how hard it might have been on your wife (my husband moved past it more easily than I did, as well), so my heart goes out to her. I absolutely agree with you: “love the people, hate the machine,” the “unhealthy, un-Christian culture of CBC/CC/BT/PBC/GC/MFI…” It’s the SYSTEM that is corrupt, the SYSTEM that is pharisaical. The people in it are deceived.
Did Doug really break your leg (I only ask because I’m familiar with his wild “stories”)???
eleytheria, I’m also with you in seeing the absurdity of the pat phrases “there is no perfect church” and “people should not get offended.” Pharisees cloak themselves in such phrases in an attempt to shirk responsibility for their own actions, their own failures and their own unbiblical model of Christianity and ministry (including the ridiculous notions of “spiritual covering” and “spiritual food chain”).
May 30th, 2007 at 10:09 am
I don’t understand why you all spend so much time judging others. If you have a problem you should talk to them about it, not talk about it, here.
Matt 18:15-17 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he doesn’t listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”
Matt 7:1-2 “don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. In the same way you judge, you will be judged, and in the measure you hand out, it will be measured to you.”
Matt 6:14-15 “if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”
Rom. 2:1 “You have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself”
May 30th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Did you not even read what I wrote r6?
Are you not judging me right now r6?
Are you not judging me in public right now r6?
Are you not now condemned for the very things you just judged us for r6?
Seriously. If you can’t do better than that… go away
May 30th, 2007 at 10:56 am
Thanks for the thought. By the way:
Here is a link to posts talking about my email conversation with 1 elder at CBC.
Here is one talking about my attempted meeting with Frank.
And here is a letter that I sent to Frank.
Oh, and here…here…and here you can read about my meeting with Howard Rachinski. You may also use the search engine to the right and find even more conversations with Howard if you like.
Also, there were many more emails sent between the elder and I (which I have not posted per his request) and countless meetings/phone calls between me and different members/pastors/elders at CBC.
What do you think my next step should be?
May 30th, 2007 at 11:14 am
MESSAGE TO r6host:
Your words and attitudes are so familiar, where have I heard them before?… oh yes, it is the Religious Rulers condemning Jesus because he didn’t follow the law…
May 30th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Dear R6: In answer to your scriptures:
The Matt 18 one — Many, many people have gone privately to Wendell, Judah, Frank, Doug, cohorts. To no avail. This blog is the modern equivalent of “tell it to the church.”
The Matt 7 one — The word judge means to sit as a judge and prosecute, condemn and pass sentence. No man has the power to do that; it is God’s job. However, we are told in scripture to judge in the sense of to discern and evaluate. That is our duty and intent.
The Matt 6 one — Forgiveness is for personal offense, and is again linked to judgment (the prosecuting kind). This verse has nothing to do with recognizing and sounding the alarm about heresy, wolves in sheep’s clothing, idolatry, etc.
The Rom 2 one — You have taken this verse way context. It is ludicrous to apply it to a few people who are calling out the mega-church leadership on their unbiblical mindset and behavior.
And besides, your whole post ignores the problem and just chastises those who point it out. It’s the emperors
nonew clothes scenario.grace
May 30th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Free Indeed said:
Hahaha. Did Doug break my leg? I’ll let you decide.
2-3 years ago while meeting with Jack Louman to get some counsel in an area I was having trouble in, Jack said he felt that I had written off Doug too quickly (having only tried to get together with him for a couple months). He said if I would agree to trying again, he’d call Doug and make sure he was receptive.
Amazingly Doug called me not fifteen minutes later and we set up a time to meet in his office.
Those who’ve been down this road know the formula. I started off by apologizing for some attitudes I’d had, and for general non-submission in some things he was flat wrong about.
He very graciously forgave me.
I brought up some specific times he had offended me, and that had ended up causing my attitude toward him.
He told me why I was wrong for being offended.
But all was not lost. Doug said he was committed to being my pastor (perhaps my meeting with Jack rather than him was the issue?) but that he had an analogy he wanted to walk me through.
“What,” said Doug, “does the shepherd do when the sheep runs off?”
“uhm, go after it?” I replied.
“right…. but if she sheep runs off again. Then what does the shepherd do?”
“uhm, goes after it again?
Doug starts to get frustrated:
“Well, right. But you’re not getting it. What does the shepherd do if the sheep keeps running off?”
Me very confused at this point:
“Uhm, isn’t the job of the shepherd to go after lost sheep? I don’t know what you’re trying to get me to say!”
Doug, realizing that he’s going to have to spell it out, launches into a description of his pastoring style:
“You see, if a shepherd has a stubborn sheep that keeps running off, he breaks its leg, and then carries it around on his back until the sheep is used to being with him. After the leg is healed, then the sheep and the shepherd have a bond and the sheep will stay close by. That’s what I want to do with you, if you’re willing to submit. I want to ‘break your leg’ and carry you.”
I remember sitting there just stunned. I had so many things I wanted to ask him, but I knew every single question would have offended him somehow. Since my goal was reconciliation, I knew that I had to check my desire to argue. Beside we were all taught to submit right? At that point I still had a lot of Kool-Aid in my system; so like a good
dronesheep I agreed to have my leg broken and asked what he wanted to do next.It turns out that the “being carried on his back” part involved getting together once a week. We set the time and place. He showed up the first time and we had a lovely chat. He stood me up without calling every time after that. I think I remember showing up two or three times, just to make sure I was genuine in my efforts. Then it was back to meeting with Jack.
Perhaps a better name for myself would be “Doug Broke My Leg And Left Me In The Bushes”
May 30th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
I love it. This deserves to be a seperate blog.
May 30th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
One of the things that I noticed about the way Doug will talk to people (and he is not the only one — a lot of people talk this way — I am sure it has a name and is some sort of method but I don’t know what it is called — “leading”, maybe?)…anyway, he will ask questions until he gets you around to making his point so that he is not the one saying it but you are.
I never sought out his attention when I was an intern. I didn’t feel that I needed anything from him and it was in my nature to try and avoid notice of any kind. But the two times that he brought me into his office and talked to me — that was exactly how it happened: a series of questions that led me to an understanding of what he was trying to communicate.
In some ways I do not like this method of conversation, but I have found it to be really, really effective in other areas of my life. I don’t like when it feels manipulative and used merely to make the speakers point seem like a miraculous revelation (therefore creating a doubtless trust and confidence in the speaker and anything he/she might say in the future). However, when it is used with a sincere wish to help someone try to understand something by offering a different point of view…then I think it is an amazing tool. It can be difficult to get people to try and see/understand things from a different angle…and as long as you don’t expect them to accept that POV, but at the least to “try it on”, then I think that using this conversational method is a good thing.
And for the record, the two times I spoke with Doug did not feel manipulative…he gave me some advice that I found very helpful and I appreciated it.
May 30th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
I had a situation with Gini’s sister while attending BT. She knew I was having a very difficult time with my family. I asked her if it would be OK if we prayed together 1 time a week. Her response was. “Well I already have a prayer group I pray with.”
Ouch! At the time that stung. After getting to know Gini and her mom as well I figureed out they are just blunt. They will say what they think.
Laura
PS David Mac Attack, I found the notes from Bro. Conner. Will e-mail you.
May 31st, 2007 at 3:05 am
I could be wrong here, but I think since you sound like you might be female, LoveMyLab, that you probably weren’t high enough on her priority list to warrent intercession (he-he).
Tami M. always seemed to have plenty of time to talk with me — and plenty of others guys for that matter — at PBC. I can remember trying to avoid her at chapel for fear of getting into a drawnout, dramatic, indepth discussion on whatever was on her mind at that moment. Just didn’t have the time.
You are spot on about all three of them being blunt. I don’t think I have ever met a family quite as blurt-out-whatever-thought-comes-to-your-mind as they were. I personally found that Tami could remember names, dates, details, etc., of things one might have told her casually in passing, from conversations that took place 2 or 3 years earlier. Amazing memory.
That’s why I recommended to Dave to just let “the Gini-incident” slide. Sometimes people aren’t deliberately trying to be offensive, rude or catty…they just come off that way due to their personality, and it’s not worth one’s peace of mind to take personal exception to their attitude.
ymmv
joebib
May 31st, 2007 at 7:00 am
I happen to stumble on this blog site by accidnet. My son left home and this was left on his bookmark.
Interesting, I’m over 25 years at BT/CBC and I have to agreee with a lot of what is being said here.
“Now it is being passed on down to the next generation of their children who are taking over the church and it’s not just Wendell’s son who is in that position.”
This is the sad truth. There is also more nepotism in CBC than the New York City Fire Dept.
I think most here who have gone to CBC want to grow in God and the gift that was placed in them. Only an elite few get that opportunity.
Here are the
May 31st, 2007 at 8:01 am
Here are the CBC leadership blow-off answers to those who want to advance in the Kingdom of God;
“A man’s gift makes room for itself”.
I’ve seen this told to many who did have the gift and character but were held back for reasons I’ll never know.
I asked a retired army general about this saying. He said this is a truth but only if that person is given the opportunity to succeed or fail.
“You have to come up through the ranks”
Tell that one to all the elders kids. I can name over a dozen off the top of my head that are on paid staff and in line for promotion.
An elder told this to me a couple of years ago. I remarked that he did not have to go through this process and that he started out over and above anybody else. His answer to me was “go out and save 500 people and I’ll put you on staff” My answer was, “is that what you did?”
I’ve been on his not so good list ever since then, he’s pretty much written me off.
“We want to see faithfulness” but you just said I was faithful last week.
“Yes, but we want to see more faithfulness” Oh, how am I supposed to do that?
After several years of working in the trenches at CBC taking in drug addicts, prostitutes, and everything else into my home for ministry.
I asked if there was more I could do, something with decision making.
They told me you need to get on the same page with leadership. Uh? This came from the elder that I questioned.
They told me you don’t shake enough hands with people. uh?
Over 25 years of giving thousands of $$$ and spending countless hours
in the trenches with messed up people and this is what I get told?!
I mentioned to an elder/DP that I would like to be a pastor one day.
This is what was said to me by him, blew my mind at the time.
“You lack marketing skills.” He has no clue that I was top salesman
and marketer for my company that happens to be the 2nd largest in the State of Oregon.
Something is wrong here…I wish I could put my finger on it.
Pastor Frank has put into place “some” businessmen and administrators who don’t have a clue as to how to pastor people. Who don’t like the trenches and disdain those who are in them. I’ve seen it.
I notice that after church functions in Ivy Hall are filled with people, just find one elder/pastor in the crowd. They can’t be found, you can find them hanging out with each other at Starbucks.
It’s a club for an elite few. Some smell like sheep and some don’t.
The CBC real ministers are it’s lay people. These are the ones
who need to be taken to Black Butte for retreates.
I will say that Pastor Frank really does have a Pastors heart and wants to see people grow in God and be successful. It’s the system he is in that
bottle necks the whole plan. It’s bigger than him at this point.
I realize we can bring our hurts here and express them but the truth is
we just need to forgive and go on. The Kingdom is bigger than BT/CBC.
We can pic all the nits we want, it will do no good.
Like the old arab proverb says ” the dog bark’s but the parade goes on”
We can bark all we want but the parade will continue on”.
May 31st, 2007 at 8:18 am
Classic-
“I mentioned to an elder/DP that I would like to be a pastor one day.
This is what was said to me by him, blew my mind at the time.
“You lack marketing skills.”-
I did not know that marketing skills were a prerequisit for eldership. 1 Tim. 3:1-7, Titus1
May 31st, 2007 at 1:40 pm
vroom said:
Yes, but he created the monster — and now the monster controls him. He has the power to stop. Step back. Repent. Reverse. But the repercussions in terms of reputation, church growth and finances would be great.
However, consider what type of people he would have in the church if he did that compared to what he has now. (No reflection on you, vroom. I’m talking about his cadre of businessmen/”yes”men.)
What would be the eternal gains if he paid that price now? Compare that to his present momentary gains that he is paying for with his eternal treasure.
Am I making sense? I’m really tired today.
May 31st, 2007 at 2:17 pm
“Step back. Repent.”
What exactly do you think he should repent of?
May 31st, 2007 at 3:17 pm
He can repent for teaching the false doctrine of tithing and prosperity, for starters.
May 31st, 2007 at 7:23 pm
doozy said: I wonder how many of us ex-er’s who used to be in the upper tier there are out there? I have been silently reading for several days. How many are silent-but-reading…? Check in. Just curious.
doozy: I’ve been wondering something very similar. The other night I ran into some cbc bloggers, who really like the blog, but are still members of CBC! They told me that the blog is a good “venting” mechanism and that there was “no way” that CBC was going to rob them of their many good friends there. How many active CBC members are there on this blog? I’m dying to know!
“Venting mechanism” I can really understand. When I was teaching at Portland Bible College, I was asked at least once if I wanted to become an “elder.” Each time I declined the opportunity. (I don’t think that they really appreciated that.) I chose not to be an elder because I felt that I had more freedom to study and teach (and travel a bit) rather than get stuck in administration as an elder of a “department.” Another way of saying it is that I tried to create a cocoon for myself in the college in an attempt to stay away from the ever-increasing politics of church posturing and hierarchy. Creating a cocoon for myself at PBC was my way of making a “venting mechanism” for myself. The trouble was that I questioned some of the church’s doctrines while in my PBC cocoon to my classes…
May 31st, 2007 at 11:58 pm
(David Mackin said: “…The trouble was that I questioned some of the church’s doctrines while in my PBC cocoon to my classes…”)
–Besides I assume, tithing/money issues I would be interested, Dave, in knowing what doctrines you questioned. How did you question them? Lastly, what was Ken/KRI/PF/whoever’s response?
joebib
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:07 pm
At Least I’m Free said: Dave, I woke up thinking of this blog and had to respond that I don’t think you are being petty…
At Least I’m Free: Thanks for your understanding spirit and your kind remarks! I know that what appears petty to one will not appear petty to another. I agree with you that the Lord will show me, and others in similar situations, what to do at the right time.
On another tac: One time I was kind of complaining in my spirit that since I had left BT/PBC/CBC behind, I did not have the same amount of public ministry as I had had before. The Spirit checked my spirit with the words: “At least you are free! What is more important than that?” Your aka reminded me of that incident. Thanks again.
June 2nd, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Doug Broke My Leg said: …. contacting her will have no result, other than to make you look crazy…
Doug Broke My Leg: Thank you for your comments. The above is what is beginning for form inside of my spirit. Only time will tell.
“Love the people, hate the machine” is a classic! Love it!
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:36 pm
vroom said: I happened to stumble upon this site by accident.
vroom, I don’t think it was an accident! I think that Providence might have had something to do with it.
vroom said: I’m over 25 years at BT/CBC and I have to agreee with a lot of what is being said here.
vroom, I hope you don’t mind me asking you, but if you agree with a lot of what is being said on this site, I have two questions for you: (1) why do you stay and support CBC with your time and money? (2) what are you doing to try to reform CBC?
June 2nd, 2007 at 2:40 pm
jeremiah johnson said: I mentioned to an elder/DP that I would like to be a pastor one day. This is what was said to me by him, blew my mind at the time. “You lack marketing skills.”
jeremiah, I agree with you that this one is indeed a classic comment! (btw, what does DP stand for?)…If you still desire to be a pastor, then God will equip you.
June 2nd, 2007 at 3:08 pm
David,
My children like the youth group and my wife grew up there and we have several friendship’s that would be hard to cut off, and you know that would happen.
David I support with my money because there are some still good ministry’s there. I also give because He is God, nothing more.
Time wise, newer people come there because they are searching for
many things and the deposit in me connects with them.
I have checked out some other church’s but have not seen any that I really like. I’m in Vancouver now. I know Bob M is a great guy but
CHC just reminds me of a dated Bible Temple. I just can’t stomache
that. There are some good churches here but none “Spirit Filled” I’m a
4th generation pentecostal and I’m dang well determined that my children with follow that path. I think we are all hungry for the Spirit of God to be upon us. His unchanging Word to work in us, I miss it. I see so much hype now during worship, maybe my age shows here but I know and remember what worship is or was. The power is not there and I ‘m not sure why.
Just my opin, but I see a generation who thinks they know what worship is but does’nt have a clue. Maybe it’s because we don’t sing the Word anymore, any thoughts on this?
Reform CBC? ya gotta be kiddin, I’m on the crap list now for speaking my mind. I was asked to come in and talk to PF and PJ over an email I
sent. To make a long story short and for lack of better words I just killed my career there. The fast track went to no track, this happend a few years back.
They can write you off in heartbeat there and not let you back onboard for anything. Plus, you’ll never ever really know the reason why.
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:14 pm
No-umbrella said: “Dave, you need a GREAT BIG HUG. YOU ARE GOOD GUY WITH A BIG HEART THAT DEEPLY WANTS TO BE LOVED.” …But, why Benny Hinn?
No-umbrella, Thank you for the kind comment. I receive the hug! As I reflect upon your comment, I think that there is a real element of truth in it, especially in the sense that I want others to be so free in the Spirit of Christ that they, too, can enter into open, honest dialogue about intellectual topics as well as the sharing of their genuine feelings. In this sense I think that I am more gifted to be a teacher and a counselor rather than the leader of a mega-institutional church or movement - and definitely not a businessman.
What does anyone have to hide - who has been crucified with Christ? I think that I was somewhat co-dependent when I was at PBC/BT, but, thank God, never so taken up with the herd mentality or having the leaders be my sole source of identity that I stopped asking questions. My questions always got me into trouble with the leadership - but the PBC students that I knew loved them. Overall, I think that I desire total honesty and transparency with others. Thanks for allowing me a moment for self-reflection…
Why Benny Hinn? I attended one Benny Hinn crusade because I wanted to go and experience it for myself. I wanted to “put my feelers up” and see if I sensed the genuine anointing of the Spirit like I had in the Kathyrn Kuhlman meetings years ago. I think that Benny is clearly overboard when it comes to his finances as well as his fund-raising techniques. I have a copy of the Dateline NBC transcript regarding such. I have not researched whether the healings at his meetings are genuine and lasting, have you? I was told by a trusted source that a former BT member who went back to his gay lifestyle ran across the stage claiming to be healed from AIDS at the Benny Hinn crusade in Portland, then died fairly shortly after that. I did feel some power at his crusade at the Tacoma Dome while standing in my “nose bleed” seat when Benny said, “Touch!” toward our section. To me, the jury is still out on this guy. What do you think about him?
P.S. I’ve gotta ask you: Does your aka, “No-umbrella” have anything to do with making a statement that you no longer need a “covering” as Frank Damazio and others proclaim the local church, as they understand it, to be for Christians? Just curious…
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Hey Vroom thanks for explaining that wierd saying ‘a gift makes room for itself’
I live in Boise and can’t tell you how much that was used down here and although I was an English major I never could understand what they were saying!
Now I get it if someway or somehow you get to use your gifts or talents it will be because you set up your own business/ministry outside of these walls and became successful than if that happens we may claim you as one of our own
invite you to speak and possibly allow you to sell a dvd but again under careful control and scrutiny.
Sound familiar? Otherwise go back to the end of the line and sign up to
bring meals to some more people whether that is your gift or not. Sorry to
sound bitter but that brings up so many memories and not just for me.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:27 pm
haha contact gini smith directly? if she even got the email shed probly just laugh and tell you to be a man. at least i hope thatd be what she did. shed probly just delete it along with all the other junk mail she gets.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
jb: From your inability to spell, you must be from the CC eh?
June 3rd, 2007 at 4:18 am
(vroom said: “I see so much hype now during worship, maybe my age shows here but I know and remember what worship is or was. The power is not there and I ‘m not sure why…Just my opin, but I see a generation who thinks they know what worship is but does’nt have a clue. Maybe it’s because we don’t sing the Word anymore, any thoughts on this?”)
I feel you really hit the nail on the head with that one, vroom.
So much of modern worship is hyped manipulation…I sometimes feel as though I’m in the midst of an advertizing uber-blitz that is being taped for tomorrow’s Entertainment Tonight episode. I truly feel saddened for the hungry hearts in the services who just want more of God, and who think because the volume is turned up to 100 decibels, and the “worship leaders” are in a state of pseudo-ecstasy that they are thus experiencing a real moving of the Spirit in their midst, when it is really just shrewdly controlled, commercialized emotionalism.
I remember talking many years ago to Bill and Barbara Roberts after a particular moving BT service while we were still on 76th, and Bob Mumford had been the speaker, wherein the Holy Spirit’s presence had been so strong and heavy that afterwards I could barely speak intelligibly. Seeing the Roberts in the foyer and gathering my composure as best I could, I walked over and gushed to Barbara, “Wasn’t this just one of the best services you’ve ever been in?” She replied that while the service was indeed good, that she and Bill were actually longing for even stronger moves of the Lord in the meetings. Since I could not imagine anything stronger than what we had just experienced, I asked her to describe what she meant. She said “like what we had back in 1948,” which was when the Latter Rain outpouring was just beginning to fall. I incredulously said, “You mean THAT was better than THIS?” She smiled and said “Oh yes, much better.” My curiosity was peaked, and being into numbers, I asked what percentage of this was like that. She replied that what we had just experienced was only 10-20% of what it was like in 1948! I looked at Bill and he was nodding in agreement.
Another example: Now, 30 years later, I have yet to be in a service that was as moving as the one we had back in the 76th theatre building when the BT choir did the “If I Could Write a Song” service. The Lord was THERE, and the anointing would just seem to physically hit you in the crowd. Many Prophets had words that evening, including Wendell and Steve Williams — among others
— and Mike Herron would accompany their words with Songs of the Lord on his piano. Never been in anything like it since. I remember the difficulty I had even standing up under the anointing of that mighty service (cf. 2Chron. 5:14). Before I lost the tape, I used to play it over the years for friends and family in my study, and we would just worship and weep together under the anointing as we listened to even that cassette recording of it. God did so much in me back in that one service, that I still get tears now at the remembrance of it.
I dare say 99% of current “worship services” I’ve been in in the last few years only measure up to 10-20% of those two BT services from so many years ago. Now that’s sad.
As far as the lack of content goes, I noticed this creeping into the Church some years back. The fact that so little of the “worship” songs en vogue lack biblical content or Scripture is telling. It’s mostly about personal, feelgood stuff…all about me, me, me, how I feel, etc., and very little direct ministry to the Lord, glorifying Him and His attributes and acts.
Go into most Christian book stores and look for a good commentary or linguistic tool, let alone multi-volume commentary and linguistic sets. Good luck finding one! But you’ll find a plethora of stuff on felt-needs, again, all about me, me, me, and how-to books. No meat, just empty-caloried stuff IMO.
And don’t get me started on all the, if you’ll pardon the expression, “goofy” Bibles on their shelves: the Serendipity Bible, the Woman-Thou-Art Loosed Bible, the Life Recovery Bible, the African Heritage Bible, the African American Catholic Jubilee Bible, the Complete Personalized Promise Bible, the Couples Devotional Bible, the Childrens Ministry Resource Bible, the Everyday Life Bible, the Maxwell Leadership Bible, the Women of Faith Study Bible, the Touchpoint Bible, the Teen Devotional Bible, the Read-and-Grow Picture Bible, and so on.
Seems to me the enemy has continued to do a pretty good job of confusing the Word of God to modern man (see Gen. 3:1ff)
joebib
June 3rd, 2007 at 5:37 am
Here’s why:
For those who “GO TO CBC” or any other institutional church, saying “come, let us go to the house of God to worship Him”, you are not worshiping Him IN TRUTH - for that is NOT God’s house and God is NOT THERE.
IF you were to worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH (John 4:24), you’d realize that YOU are now the House of God (1 Corinthians 3:16 and 6:19). And the way to true spiritual worship is offering your body as a living sacrifice. (Romans 12:1)
Why do you expect God to come visit you in your hour long building-bound worship services, when you have effectively gone BACK to the old testament temple worship metaphor? God’s house? Back to a separate priesthood / laity (1 Peter 2:5 and 9, Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:10) when the truth is YOU ARE ALL PRIESTS. Back to the OT tithe? Lordy, Lordy, Lordy! Lies have been told and swallowed whole. God’s people have willingly and blindly gone back into bondage, back under the yoke of the law which is death, they worship in UNtruth, and then wonder where God is? Why He doesn’t show up for your worship services?
Did you ever question why it was that the Spirit of God only shows up like 1 in 100 times? Could it be that’s HIS way of saying “LEAVE THIS PLACE” (Revelation 18:4)? What kind of person, would spend YEARS in a desert place, waiting for the rare breeze, a once in 10 years rain? Wouldn’t a reasonable person try to make their way out of the desert? Look for the so-called ‘Promise Land’?
By way of personal testimony, the Lord called me OUT of the IC 6-7 years ago, but I was completely sick of it even before that. Naturally, there were people who made me out to be the backslider and cast all manner of hooks about to catch and reel me back in. One was a spit-fire old charismatic woman, who went from church to church to church, for decades, praying for and waiting for “revival”. One Sunday after a service in the dead church I had left, she said “I felt the Holy Spirit wind” in the service. She was casting yet another hook to get me to come back. After all, doesn’t everyone want to be where the Holy Spirit blows by? To my surprise, the Spirit welled up in me and asked her “Which way was the Spirit blowing” and she replied “toward the door”. I asked “did you ever think to follow the Spirit OUT THE DOOR?”
Why do people stay where there is no bread, wine or oil? Why do they stay where God says He does not live?
On the count of 3, everybody BOLT FOR THE DOOR! (Revelation 18:4)
1, 2, 3!!!
Sam
June 4th, 2007 at 9:41 am
You might try looking in the mirror. Where is your longsuffering, patience, and love. It is one thing to critize others without self acessemnt. Sounds like that it could be the critics who are in need of heartfelt change and conversion. May god grant you a spirit of repentance for being so harsh and judgemental
June 4th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Right back at you Havis.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Havis: From your inability to spell, you must be from the CC eh?
joebibstudent: interesting story, thanks.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:24 am
And may the wizard give you a brain.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:33 am
I guess it just goes to show that human nature gets in the way sometimes. Considering we are all Christ’s body and apart of the universal church, we should all love and respect each other regardless of where we choose to spend our time, talents, and tithes, but, being men, and having egos and feelings as such, past offences are often more real at a moment in time than the need for brotherly unity.
I mean, if you were a pastor, you’d be hurt by someone leaving; you’d wonder what you did wrong. And you’d probably be offended, even while knowing you have no right to be. That’s our nature.
Don’t get mad over it. Just be happy knowing that you were the bigger person and got over it, and she couldn’t get over an “offence” that wasn’t even against her!
Go you!
Oh, and you know what you might want to try? A little pocket rolladex with quips for every occasion. You can probably pick it up at Sears.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Personal attracks and attempts at insulting others is proof of the minuteness of your character. Nevertheless god’s will bless you if you can mature to a different level.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:11 am
So, Listening for the Call,
How is our old friend, Arcane Warrior? That’s a sincere question, BTW. As I recall, Arcane Warrior had just been diagnosed with MS when he last posted here, and I’d honestly and sincerely like to know how he’s doing?
Sam (Jack)
June 4th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Interesting. Didn’t take you for a polytheist.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
David Mackin askid if my aka No-Umbrella refers to teaching of covering.
Yes.
I lived in fear of being “open to satan’s attacks” if I were to leave the church. I specifically remember with the introduction of home meetings the symbolism of an umbrella was used… 1970 something while Ivy Hall was the main sanctuary. Much talk throughout the years of “covering”. Anything bad that happended to those who left was due to their being out of the covering.
Leaving was an emotional and spiritual and very lonely struggle. I started seeing a different reality, but the struggle was admitting that the many years of my young adulthood were based on a distorted reality.
And for the record, my prayer life and love for God is more real and vital to my every day life than it ever has been. Also at the middle of my life I see how blessed I am and the need to appreciate life for what it gives, not what I expected to be given.
Thanks for asking…
June 9th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
I have one word for this post. Embarrassing…
I have to be honest. I read this blog every week. Mainly for the same reasons that many other do, to check out what people are saying about my friends Judah and the GC Staff. A little wrong, I know, but at least I am able to admit it right?
I know Judah and have spent time with him at both his home and at some youth conferences that he has spoken at for us. I find the majority of what you guys write on this site to try and tear him and his ministry down completely untrue and unfair (although humorous at times). However, I believe in the right to free thought and expression on opinion so I hold no harsh thought and judgment towards you all like many do. Until reading this post.
This post opened up a whole new perspective for me. This post came across to me like a Jr. High girl talking crap about one of her friends that didnt invite her to their birthday party. Who really gets that deeply offended by such a minor thing that years later not only remembers but writes about it?
I have realized that this blog is a lot more than just a few guys getting together to share their opinions and thoughts about a particular organization. By the looks of this post, your issues with the objects of this blog go far beyond theological differences.
Please dont take this the wrong way, I am not trying to judge you, I guess I am just trying to figure out what Judah and his family did to you that was so terrible that you all have dedicated a portion of your life to not only bash them on a worldwide scale, but to aggressively try and attack their character?
Maybe an explanation could clear up my questions. I ask only because in the time that I have spend with Judah both at our church, and when visiting him at TCC, I have found both him and his wife to be loving and gracious people who really do care about seeing young people come to know Christ. I am in no way involved or associated with TCC or any church that is affiliated with is, so I don’t know the history?
Any type of answer would be helpful. Thanks, and happy blogging!