City Harvest Church…come on down!
Posted on May 30th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Things Dougie wouldn't do categoryLast weekend I decided to check in on Bob MacGregor and City Harvest Church. We haven't blogged about City Harvest much, mostly because City Bible and The City Church have given us plenty of material, plus Bob was an excellent youth pastor to me all through High School. Bob actually cared about me and my future and when most everyone at CBC had written me off, Bob agreed to meet with me once a week…and then he showed up…every single week…for quite a few months. Pastor Bob is good and caring man.
So…I decided to check in…and was not sure what I would find. Cruising through the City Harvest Church website I stumbled upon a sermon Pastor Bob had given back in February titled "Calvinism and the Sovereignty of God". I was very intrigued. The church I attend is rather Calvinistic in its teaching and I've heard certain members of CBC bashing my church because of this, also Bob is a member of MFI. (I don't get the feeling that many MFI sponsored churches would openly accept Calvin should he wished to attend.) I braced myself for the worst.
What I expected to hear was about the heresy of John Calvin and the ridiculousness of his 5 points (T.U.L.I.P.) - quick note to all CBC readers: Don't bother asking your pastors what they think about the 5 points; they don't have the first clue what they are. Skip ahead and go straight to Lanny Hubbard, it's what your pastors would tell you to do anyway - ok, so I expected a good Calvin bashing…
…what I got was a real and honest look at the positive things Calvinism brings to Christians. As it turns out Bob was in the middle of a series on church history. He was actually wanting his congregation to be educated…he was actually TEACHING them (which is quite dangerous you know, it tends to lead to people actually thinking for themselves instead of just relying on their pastors). It was very refreshing. And I don't know if I'll have time, but I would really like to hear this whole series. Church history is quite fascinating.
So here he is, teaching his church about Calvinism which is a rather difficult subject. He is risking upsetting half his congregation and I didn't know how he was going to do it. Wisely, instead of focusing on the difficult parts, the controversial points, he focused his sermon on the "good things that Calvin brought to the church", and he did it in a balanced way.
He talked about the Sovereignty of God and how when he realized God chose him…regardless of whether that was based on God's foreknowledge or God's choosing his elect isn't the issue…when Bob realized that God chose him he began to feel secure in his salvation…for the first time. I thought this was great.
He went on to talk about the Gospel of Jesus. That's right, not the Gospel of Blessing as Mr. Wendell might have you believe, but the Gospel of Jesus…the Cross…Grace…the Sovereignty of God. He touched briefly and moderately on "Once saved always saved" and then ended his sermon. He started out teaching and ended up preaching…I loved it all.
Based on that one sermon, here are my thoughts of City Harvest Church: it's a good solid church to be a part of. I'm sure there are lots of things that I would disagree with CHC about: Tithing?, MFI membership?, Spiritual Covering?, but in the end all these things are secondary. As long as the true Gospel is being preached I don't care about all the rest of that stuff. Good job Bob, good job City Harvest.
If you are looking for a quick but balanced overview of John Calvin's teachings I recommend you listen to this sermon.
On a side note, I don't personally buy into all 5 points of Calvinism, but I found that my study of them led me closer to God and helped me get rid of a lot of my "religious" attitudes. I highly recommend that everyone take an open look them…regardless of how ridiculous they may sound when you first read them.
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May 30th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Bravo for Pastor Bob.
The job of a Church and a Pastor should be to get the people to think for themselves, not have to rely on pastor.
May 31st, 2007 at 5:02 am
Sounds like a man who may still think for himself!
Speaking of spiritual covering, I am glad you brought that up. In our discussion with a leader at ACC based on whether our son should do the internship or not (run, child, run!), the main point this man kept repeating was, “Why would you not want your son in a program that provides another year of spiritual covering?” I was really trying to be respectful for our sons sake but wanted to say, “Because it’s a crazy cult!”.
Anyhow, now our son and his girlfriend (yes, he has one in spite of consideration of the internship) are under the “spiritual covering” of another leader in Atlanta City Church. I know her and believe her to be fair and honest, but it still disturbs me that there is this co-dendency thing going on and authority from someone else (like what happened to parental authority??).
So, anyone familiar with Dr. Stephen Lambert? I am not other than from a web search this morning. He does have a couple of interesting articles here:
http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/covering.html
http://www.slm.org/trtdigst/articles/abuse.html
Check it out. I love the list in the second article — could make for tons of interesting discussion.
May 31st, 2007 at 5:16 am
Bob is a good guy. When I was in TCHS (only went there for my grade 12/senior year), I must have put him through hell, but he *always* was respectful to me whenever we talked.
He never gave up. He always tried to help me, even when I was a belligerent and rude jerk to him. He must have been so frustrated with me, but never showed it. He was consistant and is what I would imagine Jesus would be like if He were to have been my youth pastor.
I think Bob’s own past makes him very unique in the “industry”. Bob is a real guy. He’s been through real problems, and his faith is based in an actual experiential reality of Jesus’s saving grace, and powered by not only the holy spirit, but by ongoing education and a desire to know his saviour’s heart.
In short, I can honestly say that Bob is a guy I respect. There aren’t many people I can say that about.
If I lived in Vancouver/Portland, it would be his church I attend. I have no idea if he’s a good “pastor” (but based on my personal experience as a youth I think his heart is in the right place for it), but as a teacher he is excellent.
I regularily download and listen to his sermons online.
Bob, if you’re reading this — thanks for being yourself.
May 31st, 2007 at 5:24 am
I should also mention that one of the reasons I respect Bob is because he surrounds himself with people who are *not* simple “yes men”.
This includes his wife (whom I’ve personally heard tell him he’s wrong, and he actually listened and appologized right then and there — an event that stuck out in my mind as a Really Good Thing), and his pastoral staff. I know several of the pastoral staff, and they are not yes-men. Sure, they’ll probably agree with most things.. but if it came down to it, those ones I know would stand up to Bob if needed.
Most “senior pastors” don’t want people like that around, and I think it’s a testimony that Bob has surrounded himself with other men/women of integrity.
:)
May 31st, 2007 at 5:53 am
I go to Bob’s church and can say that it is a good place to be. I was really wounded at my last MFI church and wasn’t sure I wanted anything to do with anything MFI. But I did want to be somewhere where people knew me.
I told Bob when I started attending that I’d probably be going to 2 churches, that I wanted to keep my distance from the leadership, etc. He reccommended Living Hope to me and had no problem with me attending both places.
Since then, I’ve told him I no longer believe in tithing (he could care less), am questioning salvation w/o baptism, and all kinds of other stuff. He’s been nothing but encouraging, gentle, and accepting.
Although I know that he believes in spiritual authority, in practice he is very “hands-off.” He’s not interested in telling people how to run their life or in having people jump through hoops.
His life message is Grace and that is what comes through in every sermon and in every interaction with him.
And most impressive to me is that he is not worshipped by his people. There’s none of this first family “crap” that is prevalent in other churches. He rarely mentions his kids and they are never paraded in front of us. (although they are all sweet, down-to-earth, and strong in faith).
His leaders seem to be of the same heart as him. To anyone in the area, Bob is going to be teaching church history at CHC in the fall as a class on Wednesday nights. Registration isn’t open yet, but will be soon.
May 31st, 2007 at 6:48 am
I remember when Bob first started City Harvest he would always park his car in the back of the parking lot on Sunday mornings saving the close spots for others…that really impressed me.
May 31st, 2007 at 10:40 am
I’ve known Bob for 20 years and have always been impressed with him as a man, leader and educator. I’ve attended CHC a few times and unfortunately find it too reminiscent (overall feel) of CBC to enjoy attending regularly. Regardless, Bob has always shown an open heart to my family (my parents attend CHC) and I have always been impressed by his vast knowledge and recollection of scripture.
KariMichelle, thanks for the info on the church history class. I’ll keep an ear on that and consider it, although any interest I show in CHC is fodder for my parents to believe I’ll start attending regularly, which is a pain to deal with.
On a similar note…one news item I heard recently greatly saddened me. Wade Steele was (I believe) the worship leader at Bob’s church but left to accept a job in Wendell’s company. I love Wade and the rest of the Steeles, and had a major “ugg” in my heart when I heard he was making this move! God protect him up there!
May 31st, 2007 at 1:43 pm
http://virb.com/steele
May 31st, 2007 at 10:17 pm
I still remember Bob leading us in a discussion about Calvinism vs. Armenianism (sp?) in grade 12 Bible class. I reference it all the time and remember really being challenged by him to search the Bible and think for myself. Bob was an incredible pastor and teacher, and always had time for those who needed it (no leaving people in bushes). He walked me and my parents through a really difficult time, and was the one who pushed me to graduate from high school. Even with all the attitudes, drama, and poor decision-making I put myself through, I never felt like he was trying to “fix” me. It was more like he just wanted the help me to figure out what God created me to do and who God created me to be.
June 1st, 2007 at 5:55 am
Jeez if you guys love Bob so much why don’t you mary him?
Seriously, I expect to get my daily dose of anger and bitterness here and you guys are all letting me down.
June 2nd, 2007 at 4:53 pm
You don’t have to be jealous, WTFWJD!!! I’m sure lots of good things are said of you too…:)
It’s been a real blessing to read all the good things about Bob…
I just heard that Dave and Sue Femrite are involved now in a ministry with his church. I was concerned about them when I heard they were let go at CBC. (Cut backs you know!!) It’s a blessing to know they’ll be in such an appreciative atmosphere…
I look forward to more good postings.. We could use them…Considering the overwhelming negatives that exist…Viva la balance!!!
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:26 pm
I have close friends who attend CH, and I visited a few times. From my experience with Bob, I have to echo what a previous poster said: Bob is at the very least genuine because his faith is founded on a deeply personal salvation experience (if you’ve heard it, you know what I mean) and he walks the walk.
On the other hand, I never felt comfortable there, because as much as I might consider him a good pastor, he is still part of the MFI family and for that reason alone I still have feelings of distrust. Even if he seems to distance himself from the teachings of CBC, he is still arm in arm with them as the regional director for that area and part of the “apostolic” team. It still puzzles me that he hasn’t (publicly?) objected to the CBC Vancouver campus, which can only lead me to conclude that in some way he is still drinking their Kool Aid.
If that sounds harsh, I’ve made similar “judgments” about good people at CBC and PBC, etc. because if they really are that “good” then they should be the first to object to the false teachings of the church.
Do you feel better now WTFWJD?
I was good friends with Wade Steele for awhile, and I was sad to hear of his “promotion”. I believe he really does have a heart for honest worship, so it pains me to see him sell out to a system that will only frustrate him in the end.
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:48 am
Have you considered that maybe Bob and his church are “taking the high road” and are letting *God* deal with things in his own time and way?
Unless the holy spirit instructs Bob and his church to publicly object to CBC’s campus.. then why would they?
I think it’s a testament to Bob’s integrity as a Pastor and leader that he has *not* publicly objected or taken action “against” CBC. It shows he is capable of “rising above” the trivial, pride-motivated, “this-is-MY-turf” combatency that is so popular among christian
CEOspastors.There’s room for everyone. God will deal with things in his own time and method. I’m glad that Bob and his church know this.
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:53 am
I don’t believe Jesus instructed his disciples to stand up and “object” to the false teachings of their day. Did he?
Seems to me that they basically just preached the gospel and allowed the Holy Spirit to do the job of convicting and “objecting” to false teaching.
Unless the holy spirit empowers you to publicly object, then I don’t see how it’s going to be beneficial to anyone.
In fact, I’d say the vast majority of people who “stand up and fight” for what they believe are NOT doing so based on righteous holy-spirit given conviction.. but are doing so on soulish desire to “be right” and convince everyone how right they are.
If we trust God, then we need to trust his power and his methods. It is his Spirit on this earth we are supposed to listen to, not our own desire to convince everyone that someone else is wrong.
If the holy spirit honestly convincts you to stand up and publicly say that CBC is preaching false doctrine, then the holy spirit will give you the power to be heard and listened.
June 3rd, 2007 at 7:03 am
I think in 2 Tim 4 we are told by Paul through the anointing of the Holy Spirit to preach, correct, rebuke and encourage. That is the “OK” from God to speak out when false doctrine is being taught.
June 3rd, 2007 at 7:57 am
Ah, you beat me to it. Really, Henri, I’m surprised you take this stance knowing your involvement here.
But as FormerACCmember says, we are actively encouraged to speak out against those that mislead others into false teachings. Paul wrote Galatians as his personal rant against those who were diluting the Gospel with Judaism. He gives an account of publicly rebuking some of the Apostles who were misled in their thinking. If the “founding fathers” were subject to correction and rebuke, this leads me to think that no one is exempt from correction concerning the truth of the Gospel. And it is our duty to care for one another in this way. If we fail to do so the whole body suffers! (1 Cor. 12)
I understand your point about taking the high road, but there is a difference between objecting privately while publicly showing love, and buying the whole system by actively participating in it. It’d be one thing if Bob refused to object to PF publicly if they were no longer part of the same ministry - he could leave it to God. But Bob still works closely with PF and others at MFI, to the extent that he is a part of their leadership team. That to me says he at the least condones, if not approves, what is going on there. I don’t see how you can have it both ways.
I’m not saying I hate Bob. I think he is a great pastor. I don’t hate PF either. There are many people at CBC I still know and even communicate with from time to time. But for my own conscience sake, I can’t be a part of their system I know to be wrong, and I will continue to speak out against it. Because restoring the church to the truth of the Gospel is acting in love.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:57 am
My involvement includes free website hosting, nothing more.
I give free webhosting to a friend. Neither I personally, nor my company, endorse or have anything to do with what goes on here. We are just the web hosting provider.
Personally, I think there’s a time and a place for standing up and telling people they’re wrong.
Matthew 7:22-23
Just because Paul instructs us to rebuke, does not mean that we have freedom to do so at all times for any reason in any location, etc..
There is an issue of common sense, discretion, and of course being sensitive to the direction/leading/prompting of the Holy Spirit within us.
I believe the “spirit” of what Paul said regarding our instruction rebuke false doctrine is that the rebuke should *originate* through the intuition and righteous anger/indignation of the Holy Spirit within us.
In other words, if the holy spirit within you instructs you to rebuke false teaching, then go for it. Do it. You have no choice, and He will give you the power and ability to fight the fight.
But if you take action on your own , just because Paul says you should, then I believe you would be acting without the covering or power of the holy spirit.
I hope that clarifies my position.
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Sorry but do you really believe that Jesus wants us to sit idly by and watch God’s people be led into bondage and captivity, and us not say a word? So if I understand you correctly, we’re to condone these religious institutions action’s by our silence and not expose them for the fraudulent entities that they are?
Most of the epistles in the New Testament were written specifically in regard to refuting false teachings of the day. Look at a book like Galatians. Or 1 Corinthians, where Paul rails on the people for uniting with human leaders and forsaking the unity in Christ to say that some are of Apollos or of Paul.