Repent, Pastor Randy! (name changed)
Posted on June 2nd, 2007 by David Mackin into the David Mackin Writes: categoryvroom asked:
"What exactly do you think he [Pastor Randy (name changed)] should repent of?"
vroom, If I understand things accurately, I think that Pastor Randy should repent of:
(1) not telling his church that he does not believe in the same doctrine of biblical inerrancy posted on his own church's website (maybe he's changed his mind since he last talked with me and gave me that distinct impression);
(2) his unbiblical doctrine of the "Faith Harvest Offering" which makes Christians earn God's favor through financial offerings (the support for which one of Randy's staffers gave to Reformed Pope but still without a source even after receiving a request for it!);
(3) the false teaching of the mandatory tithe, which is not taught in the New Testament for believers;
(4) operating the local church like a one-man show, promoting himself, his ministry, his books, his CDs at the expense of others being overlooked - not operating a true team ministry;
(5) steering the local church's Bible college away from genuine academics by firing two of the most academically-oriented staffers; making it more of a pool of free volunteers to support his own vision;
(6) forming an association for senior pastors and charging for their membership - which really should be a non-monetary and free fellowship of brothers in Christ;
(7) making too much money from the local church (reliable sources tell me he makes over $200,000/yr salary + benefits + guest speaking honorariums + royalties from his side business/ministry)
(8) being the only one supported by the local church to have a retirement plan (per one of the elders of the church); who made this decision? the senior pastor? the elders? the people?
(9) preaching too much about money and thus ignoring most of the other parts of the Bible; actively promoting the false gospel of financial prosperity;
(10) extending his own ministry via a simulcast network instead of sending out pastors to plant their own churches in those areas and "sharing the pulpit" with other men instead of being the continuing central focus and celebrity; continuing, with each simulcast campus extension, to be more aloof and removed from the people who pay his monthly bills;
(11) turning the church into a high-tech theatre for Christian entertainment with the platform being the central focus of the drama rather than the people themselves who deserve to share the Word, prophesy, move in the gifts, carry each other's burdens, and pray for one another during the weekend services and not just in their marginalized, small groups.
(P.S. Obviously, these points of concern can apply to many others in the ministry as well. Please let me know if I do not have any of my facts straight, and I will make it right. I plan to send this posting directly to Randy so that those who are concerned about me gossiping behind someone's back will have their concern addressed.)
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June 2nd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Also: he says shitty a lot.
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:38 pm
I somehow recieved an NYC Church –please give us your money letter today —’because we desparately need 60,000 for some last minute expenses’. After all I’ve read here -and gratefully about what was behind the Eternity play –I find it all quite unbelieveable. What dumb sheep you think we truly are -non discerning right?
I guess they think the Lord has no eyes to roam to and fro throughout the earth?!
I’m thinking of writing a new play call INTEGRITY–with no commissions paid
or money made. What do you think? Do you think it will be a hit on Broadway?
Luv your post Dave –nothing speaks like specifics and you have em here.
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Frank didnt start MFI, Dick iverson did.
Name me one other pastors orginization that doesnt charge a fee. The fee is to send out materials to the pastors who need it.
Also its easy to criticize, but what degree do you have in theology?
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:32 pm
David,
I’ve never seen Pastor Frank more pastoral. His executives have taken over more of his administration duties.
Eternity no longer exist they dumped it sometime ago. Don’t know where
you got your information and don’t care. RI I suspect.
PF’s text messages # is out to over a 100 teens who message him.
He responds to each one.
He made everyone of his sons BB games and even missed a sunday to be with his son. I like that.
He is more accessible than he has ever been before.
His heart for the lost is sincere.
Simulcast may not be for everybody but for it works just fine for some.
If a person does not like it then don’t go there. It’s as simple as that.
Why are you harping on it?
Church is not a high tech theatre, they do the best they can with what they have and really do a good job. Sure we always wish things could be better.
Ken Ross and Larry Taylor were as boring as you were when you taught
at PBC. My opinion of course, you were not a very good teacher David but you were one of the best preachers I’ve ever heard at BT. You and Wendell were hands down the best.
btw, it seems you were obsessed with people masturbating and it seemed at one time you asked just about every young man that entered your office if they did. Do you still do that or is that just old information?
Because I think you have a lot of old information here. Why wing it in
Frank’s face?
Does he operate it like a one man show? Why are you complaining about it, you don’t even go there.
How do you really know PF preaches to much about money? Is that your opinion or God’s?
I personaly could care less, I have to answer to God for what I do just as one day Frank will. If God has truely blessed him who are we to complain
or judge him?
David you have been obsessed with BT/CBC since the early 90’s. I think you really got hurt there for unjust reasons.
Are you sure you are really free like you say you are? Or are you living in the past and bringing up old information that is not relevant for today?
Why do you spend so much energy on this stuff, let it go and go do something for God.
I have my own frustrations as well and have gotten sidways with CBC leaders a time or two but I believe in the man and his vision.
As his friend have you gone to him in person about these things?
Surely he would receive you. Have you even tried?
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:59 pm
The Internet is the new Wittenburg Door!
I’m sure David can defend himself admirably, but I thought I’d address vroom’s comments…
* PF cannot possibly be “pastoral” to his own 2,000+ congregation, let alone several campuses. Maybe he gives you that impression, but try asking him for a meeting someday and see what happens.
* Eternity has not been dumped. Ed is simply moving it to NYC as part of his becoming “senior pastor”.
* Who counts PF’s text messages? Does the entire congregation have his personal cell phone number? I find that hard to believe. Call the church office and ask for his number, and wait for the laughter.
* Going to your kid’s games is not particularly noteworthy as many parents to the very same thing every day. Skipping church to do so is fine, unless it’s your job to be at church because you’re the pastor.
That is why he gets paid, right? How does it feel that your tithe money paid for him to skip work?
* Accessible? How? Can anyone from the 3 campuses meet with him? I can’t even see my doctor without an appointment 3 weeks in advance unless I’m dying, so how is he more accessible?
* We’ve blogged before about his “sincerity” for the lost. Of all the converts at Eternity, how many did he personally follow-up on and disciple them to spiritual maturity? If he retained even 10% of the converts from these plays over the last decade, he would have his goal of a church of 10,000 a long time ago.
* Simulcast does not equal pastoring. He should be raising up pastors to start their own churches. It is a symptom of his need for control and power.
* I love high tech. But in my opinion, some of their decisions regarding high tech purchases are ineffective and wasteful when it comes to preaching the Gospel and discipling people. No one was ever saved by a plasma screen or an espresso cart in the lobby.
* The firing of certain PBC personnel had more to do with getting rid of people who were at odds with PF’s vision of indoctrination. They actually wanted an accredited college to teach students to think for themselves. PF couldn’t have that now, could he?
* PF’s reputation for control and micromanagement is infamous. Those who have worked with him over the years could tell you stories…
* The whole basis of this blog is about CBC’s obsession about money. You haven’t read much here to ask such a silly question!
* “I personaly could care less” - It’s people like you who allow PF to profit from teaching a false doctrine about money. We do care, because we love Christ’s church and wish to see it free from such corruption, and not just because we love to bash PF (although it can be fun).
* The fact that so many people here contribute regarding these things should be clear evidence that this is not just some isolated incident or a personal offense. Open your mind and read a few more blog entries here before judging one poster so hastily.
* Your frustrations will not get any easier, trust me on that one. As a survivor of 12+ years, I had to get so fed up with everything before I could bring myself to leave. But I could have avoided years of frustration if I had trusted my brain which was saying “this is wrong”.
“As his friend have you gone to him in person about these things?
Surely he would receive you. Have you even tried?”
You definitely have not been reading this blog for long. David has posted much of his personal history with PF here and it documents clearly the outright abuse he has felt at the hands of PF and MFI.
Before you start challenging people about these things, you really should do some more reading up…
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:01 pm
David, I’m thrilled that you will actually be sending this to PF. I can’t wait to hear what happens!
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:16 pm
vroom,
I was the one who originally made the comment that PF needs to repent. And I haven’t had the chance to properly respond to your query “repent of what?” Other people have answered admirably (thanks FICM and David), but none of these things are what I had in mind when I said that.
In my heart, I only see one thing that he needs to repent of: leading people to SECONDARY things, and not to the Lord Himself.
For me, this realization all started when he did a series on honor. I remember his words, “I want you to aim your life toward the goal of honor.” And in my spirit, I protested “NO! Follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and the honor will come later.”
After that, I began to listen, and now I hear him say these sorts of things often. The latest is “Position yourself to open the windows of heaven…” And again, I say, “NO! Position yourself at the feet of Jesus, and He will give you whatever you need.”
There is a verse in Jeremiah 2 where God says, “Be astonished, O heavens… for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken Me, the Fountain of living waters, and have hewn themselves cisterns — broken cisterns that can hold no water.” That is exactly what happens when the focus is taken off the Lord and put on honor, or windows, or prosperity, or whatever.
Where is the sermon that extols God — for Himself alone. Not for what He can give you, not for what He will do on your behalf. Just for Himself — His majesty, His beauty, His kindness, His perfect judgments, His mercy, His worth! When does PF preach Christ, and Him crucified? Is that not the center of Christianity: a people in love with their God?
Oh, I’ve heard him in the past talk of a burning love for Jesus, not a love that once was back in ‘72, but his current relationship with the Lord. I’ve not heard that nor seen evidence of it lately. It makes me weep. That needs to be at the center of his messages.
And THAT is what he needs to repent of. In Rev. 2 the Lord tells the messenger of Ephesus, “I know your works, but I have this one thing against you: you have left your first love. Repent and do the first works, or I will remove your lampstand unless you repent.”
You ask, have I talked to him about this? No. I talked to my DP when I left. I cannot talk to PF. I have no relationship with him. I’ve been in BT/PBC/CBC for 25+ years, but never once had a conversation with PF. If I tried, there would be no reason for him to listen to me.
I know he hates it when intercessors try to tell leaders what they have heard — as if they are telling them what to do. He thinks that’s backwards. Well, if the apostles don’t listen to the prophets, then the whole thing goes haywire, and that’s exactly what has happened. That is the result of the Nicolaitan mindset. It ignores the eyes and ears of the Body.
And besides, I was not chosen to lead these people, PF was. And so all I can do is pray that he will listen to the Holy Spirit and repent of leading God’s people to anything other than Him.
When I was going through the agony of deciding whether to leave or stay, I had a vision. I was asking the Lord what He thought of all this, and I saw myself and PF on the sapphire pavement. The Lord Jesus was standing there as in Rev. 1 holding the 7 stars in His hand. He said nothing, but I fell on my knees and kept urging PF to do the same. (Short vision — almost a picture more than a vision maybe).
Anyway, it will come true someday as we all appear before the Lord Jesus. I would hope though that PF will come to that point sooner than later, and fall on the Rock before it falls on him.
grace
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Former Inner Circle Member wrote: * The whole basis of this blog is about CBC’s obsession about money. You haven’t read much here to ask such a silly question!
A light bulb went off in my head last night. I worked for the church but woke up one day and found myself in a very deep depression and eventually quit (or was let go) from staff. I got very depressed when I’d attend church after that and stopped going for a loooonnnggg period of time. My roommate continued to get mail but I was dropped off the mail list. That has bugged me for so long because I was very faithful for 12 years, worked not only full time at the church but full time after the 8 to 5 at the church and was dropped from the mailing list. It just hit me (thanks to cityBUSINESSchurch.com…I’m a little slow) that I wasn’t giving regularly anymore. It was the money. I gave thousands to help with the building on Rocky Butte and because I wasn’t giving anymore, they knew I wasn’t there AND DROPPED ME.
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:17 am
Anna, I just wanted to say that your post hit a “RIGHT ON!” mark in me.
This is exactly correct. Frank is not a bad guy. He’s not the devil. He is merely running “his” church like a business instead of putting the absolute #1 focus directly onto Jesus, all the time.
A church-goer should NEVER have to listen to the holy spirit protest like this:
This is the key. The holy spirit instructs us to follow Jesus, in everything, without exception. The “rest” will come later.
Once a church starts losing their focus on Jesus, and begins promoting the the “secondary” stuff instead of Jesus… it’s game over and they have lost their way.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:04 am
Well said, Anna!
I can’t ever remember PF preaching the Gospel story, not even at the Eternity plays. I think many pastors fall into the trap of assuming that they are “preaching to the choir” - that everyone is saved or already understands the basics so they avoid talking about it.
In my opinion, churches would do well to preach the Gospel story the majority of the time, rather than as a special event when they want to bring in new converts.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:16 am
Anna -that also hit a note with me because when I left our MFI affiliate –
a very close one to Portland –and went somewhere that Jesus was attending -
it was like WOW I found the Lord –than the realization ‘I didn’t know He was missing.’ How could this be –I was an intercessor involved in 24 hour prayer
all the activities including the eternity play and everything on or off the church calendar. Your classic mistake –being so busy I somehow lost the Lord in it all.
Than the next truth hits you –the atmosphere there keeps you so busy that you don’t have time to think of the Lord truly for we were ‘especially’ see this underlined “idolizing our pastor” to the point of being in love with him. As I’ve interviewed countless people who have left there that is the common denominator–if he had said go jump off a bridge we would have formed an orderly ‘under cover’ lineup.
How the Lord was grieved with all of this I can’t tell you but I never felt more like repenting than when it hit me. That is the sin –putting anything or anyone first even if they do have fantastic plasma screens and a house in Washington DC.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:35 am
David,
Well written and thought out! My thought reading the points were, “and the truth shall set you free”. David, you hit the target center with the points. Right to the heart of the matter.
In response to vroom, years ago I probably would have defended PF. To even question or debate BT or PF would have produced a reaction. How could a cause , church or pastor I’ve given my life to not be all I believe it is. When you begane to recognize the subtle difference between what is preached and what the scripture says, the ground can feel shaky.
A question…Does anyone know how “Shifty Shefter” (as we fondly called him) became an elder? He was outspoken concerning not giving to the Rocky Butte building fund. Did not tithe. Criticised leadership at BT. My curiosity is peaked.
Laura
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:58 am
My guess is that he traded some of the rights to the Eternity play for a spot in leadership….I completely made that up… I did hear however that when CBC did the church vote SPES didn’t have enough votes to get approved but they made him an elder anyway…same for T-Nash, btw.
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:26 am
“didn’t have enough votes…same for T-Nash”
Seems to be a pattern for T-Nash.
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:51 am
The vote isn’t actually a “vote into office”. They just want to gauge the feeling of the congregation about the people that they have ALREADY CHOSEN to put into those positions. They want to know what percentage of people support or oppose that person/couple being put into that particular leadership role.
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
David,
I am curious. What are the facts about the real estate purchases by “Damasch Investments LLC”. I find nothing on any transactions in Oregon, but I am probably looking in the wrong places.
June 3rd, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Re: CBC 2nd Service this a.m. … in particular PF’s pre-offering presentation…
After going over a multitude of areas that deserved our offerings..(i.e…east campus, west campus, Mill Plain campus, various mission needs, and on and on…) If I’m not mistaken he encouraged the congregation to pray in the following manner…”Call in…” that job that you need… “Call in…” that unseen money source that you might not know about..”Call in..” etc..etc..etc..
I felt like I was more in a casino atmosphere than a church service…I just hope and pray someone close to him has the sense to share with him how unGodly that came across…I can’t imagine how grieved the Lord must feel…I know it left me feeling terribly grieved and empty inside..
June 4th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Looks like it’s time for you to find a different church, imho.
June 4th, 2007 at 6:36 am
Hi ladies and gents. I just caught a link to this blog from MMI and found your blog very interesting. I have a question, however. Have any of you confronted the leadership about the issues you address on this post?
I guess I’m uncomfortable with people accusing leaders anonymously. I am certainly not suggesting that you have no need to be upset but I just wanted to know if anyone has taken some principles outlined in Scripture to confront leadership breakdowns?
Peace and thanks so much for your time. God bless!
missiongirl
June 4th, 2007 at 8:13 am
vroom,
Excuse me, your Christian response to David was, “Ken Ross and Larry Taylor were as boring as you were when you taught at PBC.”
For the record, I know that I was boring a lot of the time. But Ken Ross could keep a coma unit awake. You must have been pretty sleepy. Sweet attitude.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:28 am
Sounds like there is an lot of jealousy and sour grapes from those who are not as blessed as CBC and Pastor Frank. As for the menber Fees we are delighted to contribute to such a wonderful organization as MFI. I would serve us all well if you would go findsomething worthy of criticism such as gay rights movement or the ACLU
One Man’s opinion
Havis Gabbbard
June 4th, 2007 at 9:45 am
That same wonderful organization punished local churches in Grey’s Harbor, Washington by withdrawing help from local foodbanks when a church fired their MFI pastor for unethical behavior.
And by all means, let’s continue to fight the gays and people who defend our civil rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution, because hate and oppression are such Godly values. We don’t have to show people love if they’re going to hell, right?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:44 am
I doubt that you or those associated with you have much understanding of family values. If you do not understand human anatomy how can you understand geder? When did mentioning gay rights become a sexual innuendo. If this is the case why not contact the news media they mention gay rights several times per day. As far as hating gays goes you are completly in the dark. Because I do not areee with the lifestyle how is that related to hating gays. Frankly I could care less what gays do as long as it is in private. But that goes for hetrosexuals also. Keep the gender issues in the bedroom and refrain from parading them up and down the street and we will all be better off. I am a Christian and proud of the fact that I am. Hate is not a part of my nature nor lifestyle but I do have BIBLE BASED VALUES. I AM WILLING TO ALLOW GOD TO MAKE THE FINAL JUDGEMENTS AS TO WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG. DO NOT BE DECEIVED GOD’S JUDGEMENTS WILL COME FROM THE BIBLE AND I BELIEVE HE HAS ALREADY MADE THOSE JUDGEMENT
June 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Larry,
I went to PBC and I have to say that I loved the classes you taught. Not many professors could make philosophy interesting at 7:30 in the morning but you somehow managed to pull it off. Vroom is clearly off his nut about a mile and a half. I bet he actually enjoyed taking Local Church. I’m sitting here trying to think of one person I knew who enjoyed that class and I’m coming up with nothing. And it’s true about Ken. He could indeed have kept a coma unit awake.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am
quote/ , but try asking him for a meeting someday and see what happens. /quote
Actually, my first time at CBC was Aug 2006 and Pastor Frank was out of town, but I got a meeting with Marc Estes. Actually, we approached him once, he said he’d scheduleit (or get it scheduled w/e) and then he got back to us right away. Quite impressive, actually.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:25 am
How is telling people to criticize something more worthwhile like the gay rights movement or the ACLU not spewing hate? Oh, right, because it’s acceptable to modern Christianity to hate and condemn those things. Paul said that homosexuals won’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, so it’s totally fine for us to go and criticize them for being gay and for trying to defend their civil liberties granted to them by the American Constitution from hate spewing Christians. This attitude we’ve adopted in the Church that we’re right and everyone else is wrong is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen.
How is it right for Christians to oppose and hate homosexuals but not right for Christians to oppose a church that is overflowing with false doctrine that is spewed from the pulpit every week? Can anyone else say hypocrisy? If anything, that is backwards. Compare it to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:
Interesting. Maybe instead of judging and condemning everyone outside of the Church, we should be focusing our efforts more on those inside of the Church and let God handle those who are outside.
June 4th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I’m thinking he/she’s just a troll. That or I just don’t get how we got from Pastor Frank, to gay rights. Best ignored? To Larry, I never went to PBC but I enjoyed hearing you speak on other occasions.
June 4th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
I am amazed that you are attempting to explain the merits of tithing when you are misinformed, uneducated and scripturally unlearnd enough to think that tithing has now or ever has had its source and roots in the mosiac law. When and if you ever scripturally prepare yourself enough to learn the real source and roots of tithing I would like to have an informed and intelligent conversation with you. But since you are so convinced that the mosiac law is the source and root of tithing you will probably go on ranting and raving in your deception trying to convince us that tithing is unscriptural and wrong.
Be careful of the self deception and blindness that you are now encountering because of your hatred for Pastor Frank and CBC. You talk love but you manifest hate. Because of my disagreement with certain lifestyles you accuse me of being mean spirited and hateful. It is you that is mean spirited and hateful when you rip and tear CBC over a few isolated issues. For Years this great church has been on the cuting edge of ministering to the needs of the lost, the dying and the hurting. Give Pastor Frank and CBC a break and find a purpose in life will promote something positive and good. Why don’t you spue you putrid hate and disgust out on other more worthy, noble and urgent causes. Causes such as the ruination of countless 1000’s of young lives due to sexual abuse in the Catholoc Church. If you want to rant and rave about Pastor Frank’s salary think of the hundreds of milions of dollars of God’s money paid out by the Catholic Church to compensate sexual abuse victims who have been abused by Catholic priest. Talk about hirelings there are your hirelings. I don’t think you have the guts to stand up for those innocrent vitims. You are silent on these issue because it is to much for your small and biased mind to give up you hateful vendetta agains Pastor Frank and CBC. I will say again if you want a real issue tackle the nation wide sexual abuse of thousands of young men and women who have been abused and continue to be abused in some of the worlds largest religious organizations. Therin lise the real challenge for you but your small narrow vengeful mind can only focus on pastor Frank and CBC. Give it up and get a life.
June 4th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
In Answer to your statement “Havis is an idiot”. Your only defense against what you are doing is to atack others including me. how pitifully deceived you are. Is everyone who sees through your vicious selfish and men spirited facade an idiot. Thank you for you small minded biased, hateful, mean, and vicious statement about me. You have just confirmed what others already know about you. Your true colors are now waving ind the winds of self deception like old glory. P .S. From a small Idiot (me) another large ego inflated idiot (you) have a nice forever and may Jesus bless you.
Lowest Regards,
Havis
June 4th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Sigh … when Jesus said: “you tithe from your mint, dill and cummin, but neglect the more important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness”, Jesus was saying that tithing IS INDEED a matter of the law, just not as important a matter of the law as justice mercy and faithfulness.
So, Beavis, since Jesus attributed the tithe to the law, who are you to claim otherwise? Or are you saying that Jesus is scripturally unlearned?
And please don’t bore us with the Abraham / Melchizedek portion which was from the spoils of war … if you really looked at that closely, you’d see that Abraham gave not 10%, but 100% - 10% to Melchizedek, and 90% to the king of Sodom. Abraham’s take? Zippo.
Talk about beautiful foreshadow of Christ - giving all!
Oh, and consider this, when Abraham paid the tithe to Melchizedek, we were still in the lions of Abraham … so, in effect, Abraham paid the tithe for us (Hebrews 7:6-9). Wanna bend your noodle some more? Jesus is our high priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:6-10) and we are IN Christ (Romans 6:11, Romans 8:1, Romans 12:5, et al), so the tithe was effectively paid to us (IN Christ) and by us (IN Abraham). I wouldn’t expect you to get that however, because, well, it’s scriptural.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Again as always Concerning Tithing you have missed the point. Have a nice day
June 4th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Can Havis be blocked? He is annoying and has only just found us.. He/SHE/IT REALLY has nothing to say…
June 4th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
He could be blocked but we are not going to do that. Let him have his say.
Havis, We’ve had this same discussion with a number of Pro-Tithers and it always ends up the same way, they are unable to Biblically back up their beliefs.
Recently we went through this with Cowboy who when confronted ran and hid only to return later as Austin hoping we would forget the challenge…we didn’t.
I offer the same challenge to you now:
Well Havis…do you? Do You?
June 4th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Beavis the Brave has a better ring to it, JP …
June 4th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
I didn’t want to over do the insults…but I did get a good laugh out of the name change.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
So are we at stage 2 yet? Or is this stage 4?
June 4th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
I think you should make a post about an open challenge to anyone who wants to defend the practice of tithing. Guys like Havis are so ready to tell us we’re wrong, but not ONE has stepped up to explain it to us once and for all.
It’s a typical tactic of MFI churches: to claim superiority without explaining why they are right and you are wrong - you’re just wrong. Self-righteous indignation doesn’t intimidate us, so good luck with that.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
No doubt. I’m sure Havis will run away like the rest of them. Best of luck to him though.
By the way, Havis, if you want to save yourself some time why not try reading everything we’ve written on the subject of tithe…might just convince you otherwise. Oh and to clarify, since you are new, we take the word Tithe here at it’s literal meaning of 10%, we fully support Cheerful Giving as the Lord leads.
I look forward to hearing from you:
(you can send your mail to tithingisgood@citybusinesschurch.org…uh and that is serious…I mean the address was set up to be funny, but the mail will reach us)
June 4th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
The reason you wish to block me is because you cannot support you petty, vicious, and narrow minded argument against Pastor Frank and CBC, MFi Dick Iverson and others. You do not want to hear my comments because I can see through your lying hyprocacy and I am not buy into your biased and vicious statements. You have placed yourself in the presence of modern day disgruntled pharisees like yourself. You and yours would crucify Jesus just as you are attempting to crucify Pastor Frank, CBC, MFI, Dick Iverson and others. The reason Pastor Frank and CBC, MFI, Dick Iverson and others are not defending themselves against you is because of the following scripture.
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
If Pastor Frank, CBC, MFI and Dick Iverson were to answer your biased criticisms they would be of the same base character as you and your pharisees bloggers. Who in their right mind would want be like you in spirit. I Know these men and ,sir, you are not in the same league as them. They are of far more noble character than you. They will not lower themselves to your level of mud slinging because they do not live in the same muck and the mire that you have chosen to live in. They refuse to answer your narrow minded and hateful criricisms because their character is far superior to yours and the pharisees that you blog with. Block me if you must. GO AHEAD AND FURTHER AFFIRM TO SENSIBLE READERS OF YOU BLOG THAT YOU ARE A NARROW MINDED GROUP OF MODERN DAY PHARISEES WHO CANNOT TAKE THE HEAT OF THOSE WHO OPPOSE YOUR POSITION. Again this is further proof that you cannot defend the charges you have made. If you can’t stand my heat get out of the kitchen. Anna made the statement I cannot go to Pastor Frank. She Balatenly violated the scripture which says if you see a brother overtaken in a fault go to him alone. She took her offence to others and you and you your fellow malcontents pick up her offence and make a public display out of it irregardless of what the scripture says. Now you want want credibility for your argument. You not only have violated the scripture have taken this supposed offence to the internet and made a public display out of the things that God said were to handle guitely and discretly.
I received you message concerning the way you would handle a dissertation on tithing from me. Here is the statement you made. Havis we will give you center stage…and then we will likely mock you. How pathetic and base your character go ahead and mock me . After all your kind mocked Jesus Christ . The more you say, the more you respond with such impassionate and gibberish statements, the more convinced I am that you and your bloggers are tools in the hand of Satan. The thief has come to kill, to steal and to destroy and so have you. Go ahead and block me if you wish and show just how small minded and pathetically little you are. You may block me but the vioces of reason, forgivenes and compassion will continue to resonate through our churches. My home church is a blessed member of MFI and we are grateful for the opportunity to fellowship with the wonderful ministers of MFI. You would do well to come aboard and join us for we will not come down from the wall we are building to engage you in your silly and petty criticisms.
One Mans Opinion
Havis
June 4th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
“You would do well to come aboard and join us for we will not come down from the wall we are building to engage you in your silly and petty criticisms.”
Newsflash, you were supposed to be building a hedge.
Shootin’ at the walls of heartache. Bang! Bang! I am the warrior.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Havis, in the time it took you to rant like that, you could have explained your position on tithing and written a detailed explanation as to how you would back that up with Scripture.
And why are you building a wall? Shouldn’t we be tearing down the walls that separate us as Christian brothers?
RP, you can add “tools in the hands of Satan”, “hypocrites”, and “Pharisees” to the list of names people have called you. You’ve got quite a score going!
June 4th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Havis please calm down. Didn’t you notice RP said you would not be blocked?…You appear to be able to rant with the best of them…If PF and company chose “not to answer fools…” why are you spending so much time with us??? I wonder what’s really bothering you so much?
Hmmmmm?
June 4th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Wow, that really was one of the better rants we have had on this blog. I think I may just post that.
Now Havis, what was my response to the request to block you?
You want me to block you to prove your point, but I'm not interested in that. I want you to be able to "have your say"…so much so in fact that I am willing to post your defense of tithe on the front of our blog. Now if the fact that I was honest about how we would respond bothered you, well…toughen up a bit.
You really wasted so much energy ripping an entire group of bloggers when it only should have been direct at one. Don't worry, you can get through this. Of course once you do, you might find that we are kind caring people who really love God and are just tired of the Pharisee's ruining God's church…which we've taken the time to document.
So, what say you, Havis? Up for the challenge? I'd like to expand that challenge to include discussing anything you want, not just the tithe, you pick the subject. Maybe you would prefer to write "The Top 10 Reason this blog is Un-Biblical". Send it over and I'll gladly post it. Just make sure it is semi-interesting and Bible based…you do own a Bible don't you? In fact, should anyone wish to join the blogging ranks, send in your thoughts. And Havis… you do realize that the answer to your question:
based on your statement:
is You. You Havis. You are like us in spirit…welcome to the blog.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Former inner circle member why don’t you identify yourself . Secrets are kept from enemies not friends. Its ok for you and yours to call names such as idiot etc but when someone applies biblical terms to you and yours they are accused of ranting and raving. You have not answered my question as to why Anna is touted as a source of info when she clearly violated biblical principleds of how to handle offence and you posted her comments seeking to give them them credibility and validation. I am no less convinced that there are character issues involved here. I hope former inter circle member is willing to get his/her life right with God cconcerning how the supposed offence has been handled rather than diverting to the issue of tithing.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Why am I building a wall? That is a question you should be answering Mr. Former Inner circle member. Sure we as Christians should be tearing down walls that is why I brought the wrecking ball. It is to help you to tear dow the wall you have built and continue to build up against Pastor framk, CBC, MFI, Dick Icerson and others. Why don’t you shift gears and move from the demilition crew to he construction crew. What do you hope to accomplich by offering a platform for disgruntled people to rip and tear at men and organizatons that are trying to advance the kingdom of God. Get over you hurts and disappointments and go preach the good news of the Kingdom if there is any good news still resident in you. I think you are hob nobbing with the wrong crowd. Do an about face and get a new lease on life you need it.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Wow. That was a really, really impressive rant. Read what you just wrote, Havis. Yet you called us hateful and judgmental? Maybe we are. In fact I’m sure that most of us have been at some point. I’ll be the first one to admit that I have. I was pissed when I realized the blanket being pulled over my head by these men, to be perfectly honest. But wow. I’ve never in my wildest dreams conceived a post like that. It just begs one question.. What about the tithe?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Yes Havis, we can’t let you off that easy…
what about the tithe?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Havis sure flew fast past stage number two
And is teetering on the door of step four
Right now he’s alive, but once he’s past five
I don’t think we’ll see Havis no more.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
FICM, looks like they were actually directed at you…enjoy. Also, Havis seems to think this is your blog…just to make sure you know…we haven’t raised our price in the last 3 years. Both Catalyst and I would be willing to turn it over to you for a case of beer each. Just let me know.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Because I am strongly voicing my opinion does mot mean that I am remotely like you in spirit Mr. Former Inter Circle member. I am no more like you than Jesus was like the thieves and robbers that he drove out of the temple. You would like to try and make me like you. No thanks I have alrady been discipled. If I were offended at you or at CBC I would not be airing my gripes and posted them on a blog. I would have the decency to go to an offended or an offending brother in private and resolve the issue. I would not wash my so called dirty laundry in public and before sinners. I have voiced my strongest objections as to how this is being handled because it is a violation of scripture. If you are called of God he has committed to you the ministry of reconciliation not a ministry of condemnation. I am not condemning you I am taking issue wiyh you over the way that you are handeling offence. if we violate scripture we are comdemned already. Both you and I know that this not the way to resolve issues and to handle offense. This is not the Spirit of Jesus but rather this is the voice of unresolved offence and conflict. I sincerely pray that God will forgive all of you for the way this is being handled. I have no offence against your group I am simply coming to the defense of those whom I dearly love. This thing that you are doing is undeniably wrong and places you in violation of the scripture. I would love to give you my reason for this being the worst blog on the internet or my reasons for believing and teaching tithing but that might offer som credibility to what you are attempting to do. This I will not do. My coments and statements concerning what is being aired on this blog will always be negative because there is nothing good that can be said of the things that are aired here. This is a very negative and destructive blog and it is an enemy of the ministry of reconciliation. This blog a fosters and promotes the ministry of condemnation and it is shameful to all who believe and practice the ministry of reconciliation. Mr former inter circle member No I am not like you and those who areee with you. If I were you I would be seeking to be reconciled and to resolve the issues that lead to this unchristlike situation. I sincerly hope you find the place where true Spirit of Christ can flow out from you again
June 4th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Havis, I attempted to meet with Frank and he said he did not want to. He also says that he and I are reconciled:
What do you think I should do with that? I tried going to him, but was denied and at the same time he said he had no offense toward me and that we were reconciled…sounds to me like he doesn't think this blog is such a big deal. If he did, I'm sure he would do the Biblical thing and meet with me…right. So, help me out here. If PF isn't bothered, why are you so worked up?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Never fear Havis is not going away someone has to be bold enough to offer to offer a voive of reason to counterbalance your madnes.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
I am not worked up I’m just a voice of reason in the madness. it is you that is attacking others remain silent How about a Jesus Prayer. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Then concenn yourself with the things God has for you. Believe me it works I have been there.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
John Paul,
I have concluded that there are very few of us willing to stick our necks out and reveal unashamedly who we are. I have tried desperately to stay out of the fray and the nonsense, and you know that there is a lot of that on this blog. But, I have to admit that this “Havis” fellow/person is full of anger about this blog. Is this his real name? I don’t recall anybody by that name; but of course I didn’t know everybody in the church. I am still very fond of many, many people at CBC and PBC, and don’t hold a grudge; but I have to confess that I am so happy being involved with inner-city teenagers, young and old veterans at the Veterans Administration, and ordinary Methodists these days. I feel like I am surrounded by simple people, who either love God or don’t really understand religion at all, and who are “normal.” By that, I mean they don’t feel that every time they plug the coffee in they have to find a Scripture that supports it, and they are not bent on defending the church of God, because they are more interested in the God of the church. Ultimately, I think we either love God more, or the church more; it is a matter of devotion to what we believe in our heart of hearts is the most important of all.
I enjoy some of your respondents more than others, but regardless of how and why you started this blog site, I believe it has become a forum for genuine feelings. That can’t be all bad. Thank you.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:09 am
“Havis” fellow/person is full of anger about this blog. My name is Havis and you have litle if any spiritual discernment about my feelings. If you did you would underststand the cold hard facts as to how I really feel. This Blog is disgusting undermines the ministry of rerconciliation. Bloggers are engaging in the ministry of condemnation. Have any of you bloggers ever heard of the ministry of reconciliation. I am beginning to think that the ministry of reconciliation is foreigh to your thinking. Place the blame where it belongs statement are being made that show unforgiveness. Larry taylor makes this statement “I am still very fond of many, many people at CBC and PBC, and don’t hold a grudge but I am now among people who are “normal.” What is the undercurrant for this tatement. Larry you must feel in your heart that people at CBC and PBC are abnormal. Your statement By that, I mean they don’t feel that every time they plug the coffee in they have to find a Scripture that supports it. It would do us all well if each of us had more scriptural support for what we do and say. Doesn’t that statement insinuate that people at CBC and PBC are abnormal. i believe that statements like this are sure fire indications of unforgiveness. Statements such as I don’t hold a grudge but I am now among people who are “normal.” are not statements of loving forgiveness. Jesus said from the abundance of your heart your mouth speeks. Unforgiveness is a sin and it separates us from God. I sincerly pray that this is not the case with many who use this blog but I suspect otherwise.
June 5th, 2007 at 5:45 am
Havis,
My pastor’s wife got offended with me and refused to speak with me for 6 months. I tried going to her many times, but was told by her husband not to or she would completely cut me off from her life.
3 months into things we had an appointment for reconciliation. She decided to go shopping with her daughter instead of showing up. Her husband and I still met, but he and I had no problems.
FINALLY, after 6 months she agreed to meet and “forgave” me.
(All I was guilty of by the way was expecting her to keep her word.) It was not real forgiveness. The relationship is still not restored.
A few months ago I wrote a very heartfelt apologetic letter. I have not heard a word. These are people that have a worldwide ministry and frequent CBC.
Please don’t assume that folks here have not tried the reconciliation route. Most of us have and have been shut down. It’s hard to reconcile when leaders refuse to recognize that they have sinned too.
KM
June 5th, 2007 at 6:40 am
OK…wow, where do I begin?
Havis has directed a lot of anger my way, and I may take a moment to address some of his points, but I can’t help but wonder if he’s just mixing us up. My feelings aren’t hurt because I realize he’s very sincere about protecting those whom he loves in Christ.
Havis and others have questioned me about who I am and what axe I have to grind. So I want to make it clear for everyone why I’ve stayed anonymous and independent of the authors of this blog so far.
1) I didn’t want this blog to be about me vs. CBC. If I had true offenses towards the leadership there, it would be my Christian duty to forgive them and try to reconcile. But I don’t have any personal offenses, I simply object to the teachings of that leadership, the most prominent is the teaching of tithing and faith prosperity which I believe is in error. If I identify myself on this blog, those involved can simply write me off as “bitter” about something and stop listening.
2) I have friends and family still in MFI circles and it would make it “awkward” for them if I were to publicly condemn the teachings of those that they look to for leadership. I still love these people and I don’t want this to become about me vs. them. Most MFI’ers have been duped by these false teachings and are sincerely loyal to the leaders there (I was just like them for years) and it is not my place to rip them out of the place God has them. Each person has to have their own journey to the truth of God’s Word.
3) Running a blog like this is a messy business. I have enough responsibility in real life! Besides, I’d hate to pull an Esau and trade away my peace of mind for a couple of cases of beer! (And I love my beer!) The Mortons do a much better job at the humor thing and so I contribute when I can. For a long time, I’ve considered starting my own web site or blog to write about these things, but the motivation for me has to come from having something worthwhile to say that isn’t already being said here.
4) The final thing is that I wanted my objections to tithing to be based on what I read in the Bible. I didn’t want people to think it was just my opinion, and for anyone who has been reading here awhile, you know I’m not the only one who has come to these conclusions about tithing. It has nothing to do with who I am or my credentials, but what the Bible says. I chose the name Former Inner Circle Member because I was crazy deep into their system for over a decade and I did it all. The only way I could have been more involved was to actually work for them full-time. But it’s not important when it comes to exposing the lies about the tithe.
Well, those are my reasons. If you think they’re lame excuses, be sure to point out why and maybe you can convince me to trade my anonymity for a beer sometime.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:48 am
Havis sounds angry.
Me thinks he was a bottle fed baby.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:00 am
PS. Anyone who stays up until 12:09 am and has this many spelling errors, just might possibly be a little tipsy.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:00 am
Havis,
You talk about the ministry of reconciliation. But the only Biblical reference to that I know of is in 2 Cor. 5, where Paul talks about reconciling sinners to God through the truth of the Gospel. I think I have heard Dick Iverson teach on this, but I’m not sure.
What I have seen for myself is the works of men like Dick Iverson and Wendell Smith who claim to have this ministry.
Let’s look at their publishing pages at: http://www.citychristianpublishing.com/authors.htm
These same pastors of reconciliation defended a pastor who was removed from his church for unethical behavior after the church board followed the Biblical format for resolving offenses and confronting a brother in sin. Pastor Wendell “Reconciliation” Smith then went so far as to threaten legal action against the members of said church. He then removed aid from local food banks who were affiliated with this church. I suspect that this church no longer has an affiliation with MFI.
Does this sound like the works of reconciliation and generosity to you?
Please feel free to give me an example of how these men have pursued reconciliation in the church. I’d love to hear it.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:04 am
Hey Havis,
I find your comments disturbing. You have become what you dislike - a name calling blogger who rips on Christians who are doing what they think is right. Welcome to the club.
Please don’t give us your opinions, give us scripture. Your words are NOT sharp like a two-edged sword, they are not even a flashlight shining light on darkness. Your words are defensive of a system we know all too well. A system that is broken and unscriptural. What I don’t think you understand, is that you are like so many others who tell us we are wrong but are unwilling to show the scriptures of why we are wrong in our beliefs (not confusing the beliefs with the methods). In my personal experience, you are just like the pastor of the church I left (MFI of course). You avoid the real issues.
Please, don’t insult our intelligence since there are many readers here who don’t post and you leave a bitter taste in our mouth even though we don’t agree with vitriolic nature of a lot of the comments from the bloggers here. You come here and confirm the reasons we left MFI churches and why many are still leaving.
So please, answer why tithing is scriptural from the Bible…don’t answer by pointing to these bloggers and say tithing is OK because they are uneducated. We aren’t stupid; I read Wendell’s “prosperity with a purpose” and found the reasons for tithing to be WRONG. Maybe you have some insight on the issue.
I hope you stop defending and offending men (that’s not what it should be about) and defend your stance on a subject. There are many interested to hear you out, if you ignore the more “spirited” comments.
Regards,
Craig
June 5th, 2007 at 7:49 am
Reformed Pope said
Former Inner Circle member said:
and
Craig said:
I hear crickets chirping…Havis’ silence in regard to ACTUALLY answering (using the Bible to back up his points) is deafening.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:15 am
Havis Said: “Its ok for you and yours to call names such as idiot etc but when someone applies biblical terms to you and yours they are accused of ranting and raving.”
Who wants to go back and count how many names and incredibly harsh and negative adjectives Havis used when addressing RP and FICM? Every other sentence was infused with them. On top of which, he apparently thinks Biblical “terms” are the same thing as actual scripture.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:27 am
I do not understand this guy. Wow. Quoting Scripture to justify everything you do isn’t finding Scriptural support for your actions, it’s called TWISTING SCRIPTURE. If you think that you have a Scripture that applies to turning on the coffee maker, well then you, my friend, have twisted Scripture because there is no Scripture that directly applies to a coffee maker in the Bible. You see, dearest Havis, things being Scripturally supported means that Scripture PROPERLY APPLIED supports that action, not that you can apply some random Scripture to what you’re doing to justify it.
A classic example of this would be the verse where Jesus says, “Give, and it will be given back to you, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over…” to apply to a financial situation. If one were truly scholarly and knew that context is the most important thing when interpreting any kind of literature, be it sacred or profane, this scholarly gentleman would look into the verses surrounding it. He would see these verses talking about forgiveness and realize that Jesus was saying that if you give forgiveness, it will be given back to you. And thus, a sound doctrine can be formed that if you forgive, you shall be forgiven.
For someone who claims 46 years in the ministry, you sure do have a lot of anger and use a lot of childish name calling techniques, Havis. Not to mention to glaring spelling and grammatical issues that plague your comments.
June 5th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Havis,
Your point about my choice of words about people being normal: “Doesn’t that statement insinuate that people at CBC and PBC are abnormal…” is well taken. I respectfully retract my words; I did not mean to imply the meaning that you have drawn, and I could have chosen a better way of stating what I truly meant. Is that definitive enough for you? Perhaps my friend Jan Weinstein is right about the word, “normal,” when he says, “that it is simply a setting on a wash machine.” So, for the record, please accept my apology.
I do think people are too wrapped up in a form of hyper-spirituality, which includes feeling the need to quote scripture (often out of context) and bring God into every topic. You will perhaps consider me an infidel, or at least too liberal or secular. I will accept either label.
What I do object to is the manner in which you come across as judge and jury against so many people on this blog. As much as you object to people judging your heart, surely you don’t suppose that you understand theirs. You may think that you are simply defending the people you care about, and are trying to protect. Whether or not you are actually praying for people on this blog, your words are unequivocally harsh and incriminating. If I were you, I would not second-guess another man who said that he held no grudge against anyone; some day you may find that he meant exactly what he said.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Dearest Mr. former inner circle member I am amazed at your lack of insight. You are at it again making false assumption as to why my imput has several errors. Could it be a lack of key borad skills? Could I have a problen with my vision after all I am in my late sixties. For your personal info I graduated college with a A in creative writing. Enough said. Am I to understand that those of us who quote scripture to you, which conficts with your pre-concieved ideass, are twisting the scriptures to fit our own belief schemas. I would need ro rise early and too stay up late in order to develop your level of expertise in slanting and twisting the scriptures. Virtually every church in the U.S. and around the world use the same ideas and scriptures for teaching tithing and has the same problems that you have pointed out concerning CBC and PBC. Both you and I know this is true. My question, Why the sense of urgency in makeing this an burning issue with pastor Frank and CBC? When you make this an issue specifically with pastor Frank and CBC and you exclude references to others who are doing the same thing I question your motive. I will now use your own words. You see, dearest mr. former inner circle member, things being Scripturally supported means that Scripture PROPERLY APPLIED supports that action, not that you can apply some random Scripture to what you’re doing to justify it. You would do very well to apply those thing you demand of me to yourself. On a more serious note. If you were to take the issues that you have with pastor Frank, CBC, PBC, MFI, etc. and universally apply them to others you would al least seem fair in your criticisms. Don’t you think that this would make your agurments more valid and eliminate the possibility of being viewed as having a personal vendetta.
Poet Robert Frost: Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both. I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.
The Christian road less traveled is the road of forgiveness. Dearest Mr. former inner circle member and dearst Havis. if we both take the path of the road less traveled (the rosd of forgiveness) it will make all the difference for us. Dearest Mr. former inner circle member are you willing take the road lees travelled.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Larry Taylor Apology Accepted: I have no judgement for you and I hold no preconcieved ideas as to the state of your spiritual relationship with God. God is your master and my master and before him you and I will either stand or fall. I am outspoken and firm in my convictions (not mad) offended and hurt people need to choose other means of aring their gripes. Someone once sad if you are not apart of the problem or apart of the answer stay out of the situatio. Hundreds if not thousands of people have been involved unnecessarily in this situation and that is what makes it so very, very wrong.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Wow, this is an amazing post. There are so many directions that a response could take. It is sad that as a pro-tithing Christian, I have to have Havis on my “side.” Unfortunately, he makes us “pro-tither” look bad. Just so you know, Mr. Havis, you getting an “A” in Creative Writing means nothing. I got an “A” in Spanish and I can’t speak a lick of it now. I have a very simple answer to your grammatical problems-type your posts in Microsoft Word and then it will spell check and grammar check your document and then you can copy/paste it into the blog.
And for the record I also had Larry Taylor for a teacher and I thoroughly enjoyed his teaching. He was a fair and respectful teacher. In fact when I was doing my senior research project it was on an aspect of theology that he didn’t agree with and was (at that point) doing his doctrinal thesis on the other side of the issue and yet he looked at my research paper with unbiased opinion and gave me one of only two “A’s” in the class. Thank you Larry for being a teacher of class and integrity.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Wow,
Can’t believe that I actually find some of my old favorite people in this blog! Hi LT !
BTW: I am still in the system (CBC member and faithful attendee).
The reason why I read and join with this blog, because I want to be an open-minded christian, be real and honest, not to be ashamed or intimidated for being confronted that somehow our church and leaders are not perfect and they do mistake.
There are so many things that I disagree with CBC, with the leaders, with their ideas & teachings, with church politics, etc. Once, I went to a district pastor and discussed about these issues. And I expressed to her that I actually have been praying for the past 5 years if I should leave CBC, but I never received any confirmation in my heart that I should dismember myself from CBC. I understood that my dissatisfaction of the church will not be a valid reason to leave the church, I knew that if dissatisfaction was the main reason to leave a church, then I will always find dissatisfaction in other churches as well. To me sticking with CBC is not a matter of loyalty to an establishment or to its leaders, but it’s more like practicing of my personal conviction, and being an “individual” rather than a “group”. For instance, I think that I could be a democrat christian in the midst of republican group, and I could be a secular-educated, liberal-minded christian in the middle of conservative group.
I have to thank LT, Larry Asplund and Ken Ross They are inspirational people, thanks for your dedication at PBC and allowing students to think for themselves and giving so much room to grow instead of dictating them what to do and what to believe.
I also appreciate this blog, for helping us to be real, honest and courageous to face the fact that we are all human, and we are in need of His grace.
Indepedent thinker
June 5th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Dear Havis et.al.,
This forgiveness thing has been on my heart and mind for several days. I have asked the Holy One to search me, and open up the Scriptures to me regarding this. I am willing to have the scalpel of the Word in the hand of the Lord applied to my heart. I know I have far to go regarding understanding, for we all see through a glass darkly — we know only in part.
BUT, to paint everyone with the same broad brush “Oh, you just need to forgive” is incomplete at best. I can only forgive to the extent that I have been personally offended or injured. If I hold in my heart anger, revenge, a desire for judgment and sentencing — then I need to forgive. Anger, revenge and judgment are not mine to hold or to mete out. These belong to God alone, and personal forgiveness relinquishes my right to them. I am willing to do that, and with God’s grace I do/will do.
HOWEVER, if a Christian is in sin or error — and that sin or error leads to deception or destruction in the lives of others, my observation of that requires a response. If anger, revenge and judgment are my response, then I need to repent as above. But my forgiveness of the person does nothing to absolve them of their sin or error, does nothing to warn them of the response of the Lord, and does nothing to protect or warn those who are being deceived / destroyed.
That is why the prophets, John the Baptist and Jesus were perfectly correct to proclaim, “Woe to you ______________ (fill in the blank: shepherds, priests, Pharisees, etc.) This was not a matter of personal injury or broken relationship. They were warning of the response of God with the hope that repentence would stay His hand.
FURTHERMORE, if a Christian sins or is in error in a public way, ie, from the pulpit, then it removes the situation of personal injury or private correction. That is why the apostles felt free to publicly name names and warn their readers to reject those people and their doctrines.
It does not matter if the doctrinal error is wide-spread. If Pastor X is preaching Nicolaitan heresy, then it is perfectly right for Pastor X to be singled out for his error, even if half of Christendom preaches the same thing. And for you to tell an individual that they just need to forgive Pastor X is outrageously ridiculous. What good with that do? How will that help Pastor X or the people he is preaching to?
So, forgiveness is just and right and good. But it is not the complete response to the situation.
grace
June 5th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I find it very hard to believe that you are in you late 60’s. If you are then you sure don’t act it. Much less college educated. I’m not simply talking about your spelling, I’m talking about your grammar, which anyone, no matter their keyboard skills, should have at least sufficient grammatical understanding to properly communicate a point. That plus the snide comments and the apparent lack of even comprehending what we say to you makes you sound like a pre-teen zealot. Not to mention that you keep responding to my posts addressing Former Inner Circle Member, who, in case you’ve not yet realized, is not me.
In my previous post I never limited what I said to CBC, MFI, Pastor Frank, etc. I’m sure that there are others who preach Scriptures out of context. However, I have never been exposed to the others so for me to make a blanket judgment about the Church as a whole would be ill-conceived and judgmental. How should I judge that which I have not seen?
Not only that, but you’d be surprised once you get out of the MFI circle of churches how many churches and pastors actually do make sure that they properly quote Scripture and keep it in context, instead of taking it out of context to prove their point. So to say that it plagues the Church as a whole would be wrong.
I’m sure that I have, over the course of my lifetime, twisted many Scriptures, especially in my days of involvement in MFI-churches. However, now I do all that I can to be sure that I keep the Scripture in context. It has forced me to take on a whole new understanding of God’s Word now that I have stopped reading the Bible with the intentions of proving the doctrines I had been taught by twisting Scripture.
I don’t really understand your reference to forgiveness, I guess it comes from the notion that we’re all bitter and offended. I’m not bitter nor offended personally, I just don’t like the teaching of un-Scriptural things. By all means if you can prove me wrong using Scripture, then please do. I’m open to Scriptural correction.
That brings us to one unfinished matter of business.. you’re Scriptural write-up on the tithe. You keep saying that we don’t get it. Instead of just telling us we don’t get it, prove it using Scripture. As Denzel Washington once said in Training Day, “It doesn’t matter what you know, it’s what you can prove.” It doesn’t matter that you know that we’re wrong and ignorant, prove it to us.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
PBCPrez, do you wish to write out a defence of the tithe for me to post on the front of this blog…?
Is there anyone out there willing to do so. It would be a great discussion and who knows what we all might learn.
send it to me: mortonjp14@Hotmail.com
June 5th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Someone mentioned the other day (in another thread) that they approached Bob MacGregor and were open about the fact that they didn’t agree with the concept of tithing and that he was ok with that.
I would love to have Bob’s take on it, since his church performs it and he’s involved with MFI. If someone at City Harvest would mention that a “friend of a friend” (so they’re not implicated with reading this blog!! lol) would like to hear his basis…that would be awesome!
June 5th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
I have obviously been commenting here awhile, and have been lurking other blogs as well related to the topic of church doctrine and tithing. One constant theme of defenders is that as an opposer of the tithe, I am told that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Another popular theme is that I am bitter and have a personal offense against those at CBC.
The boys have offered many times to give anyone who wishes to defend the the doctrine of tithing a voice here. My question is: Is there any definitive works or books on the subject available from CBC or MFI related churches? Is there some book or document that spells out what they believe on the topic? You’d think that something so fundamental to the way they run things would be their biggest seller at their bookstore. If they are truly convinced of what they believe, shouldn’t it be easily available to the public? But I only find hints of it in their book titles. Does anyone know which of their books is the best one on the subject? I’d gladly buy it just to see how they justify it. JP, I know you’ve had many conversations and emails with the leaders at CBC - did they ever give you any materials to reference?
It seems strange to me that for someone who went there for over a decade I couldn’t point someone to book or leaflet on the tithe.
That’s my attempt at addressing the first issue. The second is about not making this personal. Anna gave an excellent response. False teaching requires our intervention because the alternative is to allow sin into the church.
(Yes, I said it. I believe that teaching the false doctrine of tithing is a sin.)
June 5th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Havis, I understand some of the anger you might be feeling toward us who blog here about our experiences w/ BT, CBC,PBC. But, you also fail to understand that these institutions are not building God’s Kingdom, but their own - kingdoms that honor themselves, that put man first and God somewhere in there so it sounds spiritual and noble. If you could look more deeply at the way the churches associated with CBC, MFI work, you would see a similar competition between them all. At a recent MFI conference where my sister and her husband attend as pastors, they said one common question that is asked “how big is your church”? I am sorry but it is not the member count but the member’s spiritual health that matters. I know we all honor and love Bob Mc. but one visti to his church for a wedding I asked “Bob, how are you doing?” his response, “well, we have 100,000 in the account and look at my (notice MY) new building”. I am sorry, I was soooo grieved by his response. All I really meant was, “how are your people doing”.
So, please don’t join in the tyriads that occur here, notice posts like Larry Asplunds and others who communicate with concrete scriptural support. Also, study opposing views of tithing so you can better understand why you believe the way you do. AND, do not do what I did for over 15 years - and that is believe everything you heard as truth from the pulpit. AND do not be intimitated by the hierarchy of MFI, they wany you to fear them. To me, that is unchrist like and arrogant.
Sorry for the lengthy post. And, by the way, I avoid MFI churches like the plague because they all seem (my opinion here) of the same kind - competitive and concerned about building their own kingdoms so they can look ‘good’ to the mother ship - CBC
Thanks for listening.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
GreySheep,
Email me at Kamikaze4Christ@aol.com –I might have some answers. And Bob knows I read the blog.
KM
June 5th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
anna (again),
I apologize for the hurdles, but you have stirred my thoughts. First, however,…
[A SERIOUS DISCLAIMER: For what I am about to describe, I want to make it quite clear that this is truly NOT aimed solely at City Bible Church, but rather explains a particular and historic issue that relates to so many Evangelical and independent charismatic churches today. It is something that has been on my mind and heart for some time, and it may be helpful to some people who read this blog. My dream wish is that some church leaders and pastors would think about the problem of the real chasm between the concepts of priesthood and laity that continue to exist in our congregations under the rubric of a “Biblical Pattern for Church Leadership.” I regret that their positions on leadership are naïve, and that there is more cultural and rational arguments built into our church institutions, than biblical reflection.]
Anna,
First, let me acknowledge your contributions. I have had a number of “Annas” in my history as a teacher/professor, and I am sorry to confess I have not identified you. Perhaps you were never a student of mine, or I have missed an important connection along the way, and I apologize if I have. God knows there are enough connections and potential misconnections on this site to confuse Einstein. You are obviously someone who is very much in touch with yourself, and who has an enormous pathos for justice while remaining very sensitive to your own conscience. I respect that, and have noticed that you are very careful in your condemnation, not eager to condemn, and carry a respectable love for the truth.
Something that you have said recently has stood out to me concerning the very nature of Christian reconciliation and the dilemma we have because we are so far removed from the simplicity and antiquity of biblical models. You stated:
“…to paint everyone with the same broad brush “Oh, you just need to forgive” is incomplete at best. I can only forgive to the extent that I have been personally offended or injured. If I hold in my heart anger, revenge, a desire for judgment and sentencing — then I need to forgive. Anger, revenge and judgment are not mine to hold or to mete out. These belong to God alone, and personal forgiveness relinquishes my right to them. I am willing to do that, and with God’s grace I do/will do.
HOWEVER, if a Christian is in sin or error — and that sin or error leads to deception or destruction in the lives of others, my observation of that requires a response. If anger, revenge and judgment are my response, then I need to repent as above. But my forgiveness of the person does nothing to absolve them of their sin or error, does nothing to warn them of the response of the Lord, and does nothing to protect or warn those who are being deceived / destroyed.”
A couple of points you touch on are quite insightful, and worthy of closer inspection. I would
FIRST, forgiveness and reconciliation is very complicated.
FOR EXAMPLE:
If I commit adultery, my wife can forgive me, but the VERY ACT AND PROCESS of forgiveness is very complicated:
(a) what is my current relationship with the adulterous partner?
(b) what was my motivation in destroying my covenant of marriage to begin with?
(c) what is my current spiritual state in terms of my authentic sorrow, my own conscious realization that I have sinned? Have I truly repented? What time frame and what evidence will show this is valid?
(d) what are the physical/actual results of the affair? i.e. is there a pregnancy? Another spouse involved? Is the adultery related within the context of a church body? How long and how extensive was the actual affair?
(e) what is my desire/interest and motivation now in relationship to my wife I cheated on?
(f) what is my wife’s capacity to forgive? Her understanding of the Scriptural injunctions about marriage, adultery, divorce?
(g) what is her desire, her purpose and meaning in life, and how does hanging on to me fit into the long-term perspective she has for her own life?
(h) what state or mindset is my offended spouse in that might preclude her authentic forgiveness; e.g. a local prophet has said that she should “move on.”
(i) what is the cost to the family, if there are children involved? Should I, the adulterer, and the victimized spouse work together for the sake of the family and children, and set aside our own differences?
(j) what is the Spirit speaking in relation to this situation to each of the parties?
(k) what is the cost to the community-church where we belong? Will the community support or undermine our reconciliation?
(l) what if we are able to smooth over hurts and offenses, but distrust and an emotional cloud will rest forever on this relationship?
(m) what if we do not have the kind of insightful, pastoral, and professional help that we need to put our lives back together, even if she decides to forgive me and I repent fully of my sins? Can bad pastoral council or superficial advice hurt our chances of recovery?
(n) what is God doing? What if none of us really understand the long-term effects – even of a sin or crime involved – that leads to something God had planned?
SECOND, approaching Church leaders on issues of dissent can be just as complicated:
FOR EXAMPLE, IF:
(a) there is an existing culture that defines protocol; and
(b) there is a proscribed right and wrong way on how to approach leaders, and the terms of the discussion are solely in the hands of the leadership and their secretaries to set up; and
(c) there is a particular biblical-interpretation framework and culture that suggests and outlines the basic definitions of leadership and followers; and
(d) there exists in the authority the POWER TO DEFINE what is what; i.e. what leaders are supposed to do, and what followers are supposed to do; what leaders have the rights and powers to do, and what followers have the power to do; and
(e) there exists an established teaching, doctrinal establishment, to protect the leaders based upon presuppositions about particular or special divine rights (this is a leftover concept from the Absolute Monarchy era of European history, when Kings and Queens felt that God had given them sovereign rights to rule over the people); and
(f) there is an already established hierarchy, and the plurality of leadership have augmented and sustained the power of the senior or top leader, and have personal investments that are tied to the senior leader’s success and powers; and
(g) there exists an economic and filial reward system that promotes loyalty at the expense of honesty and accountability between top leaders and sub-leaders; and
(h) there is an unspoken law that says leaders are right as long as the organization appears to be succeeding materially; and
(i) there are years and numerous battles that have helped to reinforce the provincialism and unquestioned loyalty among the top leadership ( in military terms, this is called the “top brass”); and
(j) there is an expectation among leaders that great leaders will always have opposition, and that people with a lesser vision, lesser insight, and lesser character in terms of loyalty to the “cause” will never quite “get it.”
YOUR HOPE OF RECONCILLIATION IS NULL AND VOID IN SUCH CASES.
THE QUESTION REMAINS:
How can we apply biblical models of approaching leadership today, when it is so obvious to ordinary saints that there is no longer an even road to honest and authentic discussion with leaders? Dialogue is out; inspiration and leadership determination are in. When leaders have stopped listening to the people, because they are convinced they are hearing from God, they can no longer hear the voice of God from among the people.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Great comment Larry…you wouldn’t happen to have an answer to that question would you??? It would really come in handy for me.
June 5th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Larry, you articulated so well some of the same thoughts I had lately as I began to wonder if it was even possible to reconcile with CBC leadership over…well, anything.
I think many of the detractors of this blog don’t fully realize the extent of these issues and the result is the occasional tirade by someone very angry at us. Many may not like the methods of exposing these lies (brutal satire is never funny to those being made fun of), but we have given the truth a voice such that many current and former members of CBC are now listening. For that reason alone, I’m willing to struggle with my conscience about whether or not we cross the line from time to time.
Still, I am personally motivated to continue solidifying my thoughts on these issues with more research into God’s Word and discussions on blogs like this one.
June 6th, 2007 at 3:59 am
Havis is definitely not Pastor Frank. I am several 1000 miles away from CBC
June 6th, 2007 at 4:05 am
Here ere are 3 questions for you bloggers. What is a covenant? What is the duration of or the time frames associated with God’s covenants? Do any of you bloggers believe in covenants?
June 6th, 2007 at 5:36 am
[…] A reader comments: I am still in the system (CBC member and faithful attendee). […]
June 6th, 2007 at 6:18 am
Havis, we are under the new covenant established between us and God via the work of Christ on the Cross. I’m guessing you want to start preaching at us about how we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, are in covenant with one another. No one is denying that here. But that does not require me to excuse my brothers who are in error. In fact, it demands that I correct and rebuke them.
And you still haven’t defended the tithe, or the ministry of reconciliation, with a clear explanation from Scripture. Think of all the time you’ve wasted shouting at us when you could have defended your doctrine that we oppose. Imagine if you had joined us in an intellectual debate that led us all to ask important questions about what we really believe about God’s Word. But no, you insist on trying to take us down a peg somehow. Come, my friend, put down your anger and reason with us. Let us discuss these things as brothers in Christ and not as enemies.
June 6th, 2007 at 6:49 am
Larry, thank you for the kind words. When I attended PBC, my teachers were Iverson, Blomgren, Johnston, Herron, etc. I never had the chance to be in your class or get to know you.
Havis, Covenants are part of Christian doctrine. Why are you asking?
June 6th, 2007 at 6:56 am
Havis,
Are you the Havis Gabbard that officiated over the funeral for Gloria Cusenza at the Miles Martin Funeral Home in Mount Morris, Michigan in January of 1994?
June 6th, 2007 at 7:04 am
I do belive ole Havis is asking about convenats to try and set up his defence of the Tithe..which I appreciate.
He’s gonna hit us with the Abrahamic Covenant of Blessings or something like that…its a nice sounding theroy until you actually look at it, but still…it should be a good time.
June 6th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Mmm.. going the covenant route, eh?
Why, dear Havis, a covenant is an agreement between two individuals. A covenant is effective as long as determined by the two individuals or until one of the individuals backs out. And I don’t really know what you mean by do we believe in covenants. Everyone, Christian or non-Christian, believes in covenants. A covenant is simply an agreement, usually a formal and legally binding one. People still make covenants all the time today.
If you’re going to bring up the Abrahamic Covenant or anything other than the New Covenant have fun trying to prove that it’s still binding to us.
June 6th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Ge 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Who is the seed after Abraham and what is the everlasting covenant?
Is this covenant valid and does it have present day significance?
How does it relate to Psa 89:34?
Can on person make covenants that are and binding commitments on future generations?
June 6th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Havis, what are your thoughts on circumcision? and why did you only post Genesis 17:7? Why not continue through with verses 10-14?
It's all one covenant right…? So after reading that please read Acts 15 specifically the part in verse 10 which says
Do you not realize what Peter is saying here…They are specificallly discussing circucision here, as commanded in this covenant you referenced above…once you make the connection of tithe to this covenant you are connecting tithe to circumcision…shall I go on? I could…
Instead of beating around the bush, why don't you just come out and write it all down for us. Explain why you believe God still commands us to tithe for us to discuss. Please.
June 6th, 2007 at 10:27 am
The line of questioning reminds me of the pharisees who by asking questions were trying to trap Jesus. The same pharisees who when asked Jesus discussed among themselves “if we say this, He’ll say that … if we say that, He’ll say this … so let’s tell Jesus we don’t know” … the pharisees had few answers - just questions and accusations.
Havis is in Ohio, guys. Perhaps he goes to Center Pointe Community Church in Goshen, which is an MFI church?
June 6th, 2007 at 10:27 am
Romans 4 makes it clear that are part of the New Covenant of Faith through Abraham. It is again confirmed in Galatians 3 that we are “Children of God” through the covenant of faith through Abraham.
In Hebrews 2, the author shows that Jesus himself considers us his brothers and sisters through his fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.
Hebrews 7 (I won’t quote this time) makes it clear that Jesus is the fulfillment of both the Abrahamic & Davidic covenant (the one in Psa. 89) by becoming the Eternal High Priest forever.
To answer your last question: yes. Hebrews 5 explains that God’s covenant with us is dependent ONLY on His Word alone, and there is nothing we can do to change it.
So, what’s your point, Havis? What does this have to do with tithing, reconciliation or this blog?
I know you’re hoping to give us some kind of Sunday school lesson, but really, we’re a competent group of people who have studied the Bible and its teachings for our entire lives. Please don’t assume we don’t know what you’re talking about. Please make your point or move on.
June 6th, 2007 at 10:33 am
Havis,
I applaud you for finally posting some scripture. I do think your position on tithing has been learned by all on this blog who have attended MFI churches, and found to be a false doctrine.
It would be helpful if you were to point out why our interpretation of the scriptures listed in the previous posts are incorrect. We believe the covenant you are relying on was fulfilled in Christ and that is why we don’t circumcise, perform animal sacrifices and yes…TITHE. Why, in your opinion, would we discard all the outward parts of the covenant (circumcision and animal sacrifices) but keep the tithe?
I asked this of my pastor at the City Church and he didn’t have a good answer to this. Maybe you can do better.
June 6th, 2007 at 11:50 am
All you needed to do was ask. I have nothing to hide. My name is in the phone book. I live in Goshen Ohio; I am a member of an MFI affiliated church. We are grateful an appreciative of all of the Leadership of that organization. Contrary to the ways of some of you loggers I don’t care who knows my identity. Yes, I am the person who conducted the funeral in Flint, MI. That was during my tenure as pastor there. Now Larry Wade I challenge you to step fort and identify yourself. You cannot hide your identity from the Holy Spirit. I can see through your fig leaves. What are you hiding from? Like Adam, in the garden come forth and come clean. I met you in 1974. If you wish to know my impression of that meeting contact me privately. Certain things said are not for national audiences. They should remain private. I love the lame duck excuse given by Mr. Former Inner Circle member that the reason he kept his identity hidden was because friends and family we members of CBC. If I were convinced that teaching tithing is sin then I would believe that those pastors and congregations teaching and practicing tithing we sinners. Their churches also would of thieves and robbers. I would also be on the roof tops shouting for friends and families to get out of those churches.
June 6th, 2007 at 11:57 am
Um…did Havis just out Larry Wade?
Larry…do you read/write on this blog?
Havis who else can you out…?
I’m not even bothered by the fact that he is avoiding the direct tithing challenge…if you want to keep outing people you will always be welcome on this site.
For those keeping score: FICM is NOT Larry Wade. That is all.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
I’ve already explained why I won’t reveal myself. I’m not in this so you can paint a big bullseye on my chest or so you can know which person to hate.
In general, I would recommend that all commenters here refrain from posting information about anyone other than yourselves. It’s just not cool, OK?
Also, I don’t understand your need to out Larry Wade. If he is commenting on here, it’s his right to be anonymous. And I daresay it is probably necessary considering his connections within CBC and MFI. Were he to speak out he risks shunned by those around him. That’s a decision he has
to make for himself, and how dare you assume to make that choice for him.
This blog is a virtual roof top. I honestly think it’s a generational thing for older people not to understand this. This is how our generation communicates and it doesn’t make it any less valid. For us, it is the best method for proclaiming the truth we believe in. I do believe that the teaching the false doctrine of tithing is a sin that needs to be purged from the Body of Christ. That’s why I shout from these rooftops.
You still haven’t answered why you believe in the tithe. Can you point me to a book where you learned about this? I’ll gladly buy it and read it.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
I always ploay the cat in cat and mouse games.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I am playing by the rules of you bloggers. You outed me Havis in Ohio attending an MFI affilate church. Read your comments from others.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Dwayne Wade. Is FICM Dwayne Wade? Or maybe he’s Dwayne Wayne from A Different World? Seems like the type to me.
Sam
June 6th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Of all the strange things I’ve read on this blog, this has to by far be the strangest comment I’ve ever read. Congratulations, Havis, you now have not only made the longest rant/rave about nothing post but you’re also contending for strangest post.
Just a little heads up, dear friend. Posting under your name outs yourself. You can’t accuse someone of outing you when you post under your real name. Do you think your MFI-affiliated pastor would approve of you posting on this website?
June 6th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Case in Point: Better still FICM you write the book on tithing and we will all buy a copy. Have a nice day.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Havis, I just Googled you. You do know about Google, right? And once Googled, mfi-online.org listed the MFI affiliate church for Goshen, OH. Wasn’t hard to figure out.
The generation Mr. FICM
is talking about is tech savvy … why, we can even look up your drivers license picture online, Havis. Check this LINK out, then enter your first and last name, city and state in the text fields on the lower right, click the “License Search” button, and it will display your drivers license in about 15 seconds.
Wasn’t hard to find you, Havis - that’s why it’s important to be on your best behavior on the internets.
Sam
June 6th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I have do not keep secrets of this sort from my pastor. I met him at Home Depot this morning an we discussed the issue of me posting on this blog. He has no problem. Again secrets are kept from enemies not friends. See you. Later.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Good to hear. That just leaves one item of business, Havis. Your write up showing that we indeed are Biblically commanded to tithe.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Actually, I’ve thought about doing this for some time. Recent posts like this one has brought it to the front of my mind again, and I feel the Holy Spirit urging me to codify these things in a manner that isn’t “just some bitter people on a blog.” Perhaps if you guys encourage me enough, I will begin to do so. I have found plenty of resources here for research and I’m glad to share credit with those who have given me so much information.
This is one of the reasons I have been asking for anyone to provide me with a book that supports tithing. I’d like to hear the opposition’s side before assuming I think I know what they teach and believe.
If I do write a book, I will most likely give it away for free online, unlike MFI pastors who charge money for teaching the truth of God’s Word.
June 6th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
The esteemed Mr. FICM said:
Ahem … do you really mean that, Mr. FICM? (G/D/R)
Mr. Sam
June 6th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Haha, You got me there. I realized what I’d said right after I clicked “post.” To be fair, there is probably much truth in their books and I’m not here to debate everything they’ve ever written. I was just making the point that none of their books are free or even “cheap”. For example, PF’s sermon-series tapes are $60. “Biblical Principles for Becoming Debt Free” is $20 (plus shipping). If someone is seriously in debt, how can you in good conscience charge them $20 for the information on how to get out of debt?
June 6th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
I have been to Mt. Morris and Flint a couple times in my life… to visit a good friend and Mennonite Missionary to Nicaragua.
Small world..
June 6th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
living life: what a small small world indeed
Gloria’s daughter Renee and her son-in-law Bill are now at my home visiting.
June 6th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
http://www.amazon.com/Tithing-Gods-Financial-Norman-Robertson/dp/0620106751/ref=pd_bbs_sr_9/105-3399081-0428413?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181168528&sr=8-9
I think this made me puke a little in my mouth.
This other link leads to a ton of books on tithing.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-3399081-0428413?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=tithing
What I found interesting was that there were a number of book opposing tithing. You might not need to write that book after all, FICM.
June 6th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
After reading through this BLOG I have a couple of questions. Philippians 1:17-18 says The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached.
Are people being ministered to through the work of CBC? Are people still being brought to a knowledge of Christ because of CBC? I do not know Pastor Frank personally but I find it hard to believe that everyone at CBC is corrupt and that work is doing nothing to further the cause of Christ. I understand that your issue is not with the church, but are your actions causing harm to that body of Christ?
If the church as a whole is working for the Lord why do something to bring that church down and possibly hurt the kingdom. Shouldn’t we be focusing on furthering Christ and not attacking each other? Last I checked we are going to be judged based on how well we help “the least of these” (Matt 25) not how well we attack church leadership. I hate to see Christians fighting amongst themselves because as long as we are battling each other we cannot be fighting our true adversary. Remember we war not against flesh and blood, period! Therefore I think it would be far more beneficial for all sides to pray and trust God to handle the issues mentioned on this BLOG.
I would also like to point out that King David when he had the opportunity to kill King Saul did not saying, “Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lords anointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the Lord”. This was after Saul did much evil against the Lord, killing the priest of Nob and even trying to kill David himself. I would encourage you to take great caution attacking someone the Lord has anointed to do a task, even if you feel the person is in the wrong. God has punished many people for doing the same thing. The Lord gave Miriam leprosy for speaking against Moses having a Cushite wife and did even worse to Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. Last I checked we do not want to be associated with the one who is the accuser of the brethren
As far as the issue of tithing, who cares? Tithing has nothing to do with a person’s salvation. Let’s focus on eternal things, not fighting over doctrine and vendettas.
June 7th, 2007 at 4:40 am
(jtizzo said: “I would encourage you to take great caution attacking someone the Lord has anointed to do a task, even if you feel the person is in the wrong.”)
I remember back in the 80s when a friend of mine at BT, Arnold, and myself were trying to engage Pastor W.W. Patterson at Seattle’s Bethel Temple in, among other things, discussing abuses by some in the ministry. Bro. Patterson, whose insight and knowledge of the Word were just astounding, and whose character was very Christ-like, always seemed to manage to keep from directly mentioning anyone’s name, and from criticizing anyone directly, instead using Scripture to speak to whatever excess they might have been guilty of.
All of which was very frustrating for me, who being a young man in my twenties at the time, and having recently felt the sting of faulty leadership at a previous church, was wanting to take no prisoners. I wanted to name names, and point accusatory fingers at any and all who in my view were guilty, and to see them swiftly dealt with.
In my frustration I not-so-politely asked him why he wouldn’t join us in the free-for-all against the, in our opinion, faulty leadership. He simply replied “And in His right hand He held seven stars.” (Rev. 1:16). We said, so what?
He then said, “Remember, ‘it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.’ (quoting Heb. 10:31) Jesus will deal with His own leadership in due time, severely if need be, of that you can be sure.”
Wow. I realized that my feelings or even outrage at the abuses I had witnessed were nothing in comparison to those of the Lord, that I wouldn’t want to be in said leadership’s shoes, and that He had the situation well “in hand.” It helped my attitude tremendously.
Good word, jtizzo.
joebib
June 7th, 2007 at 5:30 am
Is it not our duty as Christians to stand up and speak out against immorality?
June 7th, 2007 at 6:32 am
Please read Matthew 18 again. In the first part, we have Jesus saying that anyone who causes someone else to sin has got it coming. But later, he tells us we should confront those people in the hopes that they can be spared that judgment. Simple, yes?
Let me ask you a question: Was it right for the Catholic church to turn a blind eye to sin within their clergy for decades? In the end, their sin was found out and it tarnished the reputation of the Church and ultimately the reputation of Christ to the world. Other church leaders have fallen and it wasn’t until their sins became public that they were dealt with. Assuredly, they will receive their punishment from both men and God, but the damage to the cause of Christ is a tragedy. Imagine if those close to these men had dealt with their sin before it had a chance to impact others?
When I object to the teaching of the tithe, I do not approach it as some matter of personal opinion that has little impact on how we live our lives. It is my belief that they teach the tithe as a false doctrine that causes people to have a wrong perspective on God and their faith - it teaches them that God is a mean taskmaster who can be bribed with money and that health and wealth are akin to Godliness and piety. This to me is a SIN, because it teaches a Gospel other than the grace and sovereignty of God. Jesus did not shed his blood on the Cross so that he could demand 10% of my paycheck!
Many have questioned the tithe within the church and they have not listened. They continue in their error and continue to harm those within the church. Should we remain silent in the hopes that God will bring His judgment, or should we continue to speak out in the hopes that it brings them to repentance and spare them from judgment?
And how will Christ judge you for these things? If you know your brother is sinning against others and you do nothing, do you think you will not be held accountable?
June 7th, 2007 at 7:44 am
Inner Circle I have reread Matthew 18. In verse 17 as a last resort it tells you to take the matter to the church. THE CHURCH not the world (which is what you are doing on this BLOG). Your comparison of this issue to the Catholic scandals holds little water in my book. How can you compare the abuse of children to improper teaching on tithing and prosperity? Sounds to me like you are comparing a cocaine addiction to a McDonalds addiction. I would suggest that you read Matthew 18 a little further and check out the parable of the unmerciful servant – we all have our faults and we should forgive one another. Let God handle is own leadership.
June 7th, 2007 at 7:48 am
jtizzo said:
Hey jtizzo,
I see a lot of sciptures telling us to point out error, but where do you get scriptural support for your comment above? I would love to see it.
Also, are the apostles in error when the posted their grievances with individuals and groups in the bestselling book of all time - for all to see?
June 7th, 2007 at 7:48 am
And think about all the people who were abused for years after because of it. The church wants to turn and look the other way because they don’t want “the world” to see us arguing. How many walked away from faith in God because of the abuses that the church allowed? How many would have been saved if the church would have dealt with this situation properly.
What duty do we have to proctect those inside the church?
Does the “Great Commission” call us to bring people into the church and then turn a blind eye?
June 7th, 2007 at 8:14 am
jtizzo said:
Both will kill you over time, bud. If you loved your brother or sister, you’d speak up about either!
Whether it’s child abuse, doctrinal abuse, psychological abuse…it doesn’t matter! A pattern of indifferent abuse has become the norm and needs to be broken so others can be loosed to realize the full grace and sovereignty of God!
My .02
June 7th, 2007 at 8:54 am
“Sounds to me like you are comparing a cocaine addiction to a McDonalds addiction”.
Have you seen “Super Size Me”? I am not trying to be funny. That food will literally kill if you are addicted to it.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:19 am
You ask for scripture to back my opinion when I have done nothing but quote scriptures in my posts. The Bible tells us not to respond to a fool’s folly. Don’t worry the Pharisees thought they were acting righteously also.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:31 am
If, as I believe, CBC is teaching tithe and prosperity in place of the Gospel of Jesus then they are not much better than the child abusers.
It’s like this:
A man beats his wife. You see her crying, see the bruises, the broken bones and immediatly you are filled with righteos indignation and say “stop that is wrong”. We all want to help.
Another man verbally abuses his wife…emotionally he has destroyed her, but there are no bruises or broken bones. When you talk to the man he smiles nicely, answers correctly and tells you how much he loves his wife. We walk away and say, it isn’t right for us to judge this man…
The woman commits suicide.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:37 am
The two scriptures you used in Matthew didn’t preclude the Apostles from publicly exposing false doctrine, and yes they named names. It seem that either they mis-interpreted those scriptures, or you are, or the their actions are not under Jesus’s teachings in Matthew 18. That was my main point, how do we harmonize these scriptures.
Now I am not saying we should persoanlly attack people, but can we point out scriptural error when confronting the offender in person has had no results?
Notice how Paul was naming names and even gave warnings of where this guy would go. Don’t you think we should do the same (in love not from spite). I don’t think Paul wrote this out of spite, but to warn people that these men were not following Christ. We should be warning of false teachings, but praying for the offendor like Jesus “forgive them for they know not what they do”.
I am not trying to be contentious, or defend everything that goes on in this blog, but I ask a sincere question that I have struggled with over time. I enjoy hearing your opinion on these scriptures because it challenges my current point of view.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Mr. Sam have question:
How man find 1-2 witness go with, without talking to others about brother’s sin?
Scripture require some think. Must turn brain on.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
jtizzo
Your comments are a breath of fresh air. The one track mind of many of the bloggers here is fouling up the real issue of seeking to preach the message of salvation to the lost. I was raise in a non tithing church were preaching against tithing was the rule. I came to my own conclusion about the doctrine of tithing and my life is richly blessed. If you really want to harp on something talk about a book of Acts offering
Ac 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Ac 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Ac 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
The real issue here is not tithing. The real issue is that some bloggers are incensed over tithing because they want to retain keep all of their own money for their own personal use. Get out your check books non tithers. I challange you to produce evidence that you contribute your fair share to win the lost to Christ . This is not a tithing issue this is a love of money issue. You love and you keep it. I love tithing and giving and I am relentles in doing so. Jesus said for what good thing I do do you codemn me.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Samaritan
Turn brain on: What an appropriate comment.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I don’t think it’s a love of money issue, I think it’s more of a control issue, as well as an intellectual honesty regarding what the bible actually teaches issue. It seems that it’s always an assumption on the “tither” side of the debate that those who don’t follow that doctrine must love their money too much to want to give it away. The reality for me is that I give more than 10% of my money away (not that the amount matters except for arguments’ sake) , I just don’t see how giving a set amount to some organization fulfills my obligation to God to be a giver, or for that matter how giving a check to a man-made organization = giving to God. Anyhoo I think I’ve already said all I care to on this subject in other posts
June 7th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Josh
Since you don’t give to man made organizations are you having audiences with God. Have you met him as Abraham met him and are you giving your offerings to him. If you are please invite me along. I would relish the opportunity to do that
June 7th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
I didn’t say I don’t give to man made organizations. I give both to man made organizations and to meet individual need. In fact I even contribute a great deal to the church I attend, which I feel great about. What I meant with my comment is that I feel that believers have a responsibility to listen and respond, not to follow a non-existent rule made up so churches can have a steady income by manipulating people into giving them money.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
I love the fact that Havis is backpedaling on the tithing issue! One minute its Biblical and now he’s trying to convince us that his “experience” is what proves it.
We could try giving 10%, but that doesn’t make it Biblical. Dust of that Bible of yours Havis, set your experience aside and PROVE IT.
Anyone?
June 7th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
I don’t have a problem with tithing. Giving 2%, 10%, 20% or whatever is fine. What I DO have a problem with is the teaching that tithing is our ante to get in God’s game. By PF’s own teaching: if you don’t tithe, you have no part of their church. If you don’t tithe, you don’t get God’s open windows over your life. If you don’t tithe, your obedience to God is suspect. Tithing is the dues to belong to God’s club.
If this were really the requirement for being part of the Lord’s church, don’t you think He would have said more about it in the Bible? Instead, He says things like:
He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:28,29
June 7th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Anna
He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, but to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
You are using O T scripture to prove the point you want to make.
Try this one.
Joshua1:8 But keep away from the devoted things, so that you will not bring about your own destruction by taking any of them. Otherwise you will make the camp of Israel liable to destruction and bring trouble on it.
19. All the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the LORD and must go into his treasury.”
Joshua7:1 But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things ; Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the LORD’s anger burned against Israel.
The isralites were to conguer ten cities. The spoil of nine of those cities belonged to them. The spoil of the first city, Jericho was to go into the treasury of the Lord. This follows the law of tithing the 10th of all increase. Achan took part of the spoil (tithe) of this city and his sin cost him and all of his family their lives Malachi 3:10. Read The account of the whole situation Joshua 16 & 17. Strange how the old O T was crystal clear that keeping the tithe was a sin. Some Bloggers now say that to teach and practice receiving the tithe is a sin. Hmmmmm!!!!!!!
Think I will take my chances with the tithers.
June 7th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Let that be a lesson to you whipper-snapper blogger buggers!
If ever you knock over 10 cities, you owe God the booty from 1 city!
(And if homeland security puts a cruise missile up your chocolate whiz-way while you’re knocking over your first city, you’re S.O.L.)
Word.
June 7th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Craig,
Paul (and assumedly other Christian leaders) were in much danger from false brethren (2 Cor 11:26) In 2 Tim 4:14 Paul was warning Timothy about a nonbeliever that could have done him harm. He was not using the letter to personally attack Alexandar’s doctrine.
In 2 Tim 4:10 Paul was simply letting Timothy know that Demas had abandoned him. Once again he was not criticizing him because of a difference in doctrinal opinion.
I think the bottom line is the BLOG goes way over the line. I have heard people compare this church to child abusers. I read through posting after posting on how unbiblical this church is all the while little scripture is being used as a basis for these accusations. I am not arguing the merit of the things said on this site one way or the other. The only thing I am saying is most of the posts seem to be very vindictive. To me it doesn’t sound like most people care as much about the “prosperity message” as they do grinding their personal axes with the church.
When this BLOG says City Business Church, and creates a mock logo did you ever think that it doesn’t only bash the pastor, but everyone who attends, volunteers, and works for the church? People on this BLOG say this church has sold out the message of Jesus for a prosperity message. Bottom line does this church preach Jesus? Does this church help other churches to preach Jesus? If they do leave them alone and allow God to take care of his own. If there is sin it will eventually be revealed, God doesn’t need anybodies help.
June 7th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
When was the last time someone heard Frank preach Jesus? I’ve listened to a lot of sermons and Frank just doesn’t preach Jesus…Prosperity he preaches nearly every week, Jesus…not so much.
Actually, now that I think about it…he did preach Jesus on Easter Sunday…I’ll bet that was the only time this year he has…and he didn’t preach Jesus the 2 easters prior to that.
I don’t listen to every sermon so I’m sure I could be wrong, but I do listen to a lot of them…If I’m wrong let me know.
Sorry JT, I’m just being honest.
June 7th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Craig, He’s probably making reference to 1 Peter 4:17, “judgment begins in the house of God”
I wonder if Havis and Jtizzo have read Frank’s dream? Sounds to me like there’s a flushin’ in Franks future … guys, you might wanna re-think whether you want to stand with a man whom God is getting ready to flush …
Read about Frank’s Gully Washer
June 7th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Havis said,
And you completely missed the point I made. Should I restate it?
June 8th, 2007 at 3:50 am
anna
I did not miss your point. I was simply stating that many of you bloggers selectively use the scriptures to try to prove you point. It is a narrow minded view that fails to comprehend the whole picture. What about the O T position of God which says that the lack of tithing is sin. It was a sin and by refusing to honor tithing Achan’s his amd his family’s death. Were in the N T does it say that teaching and practing paying tithe is a sin. Are we now making our own rules for what is and what is not sin. 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:31 am
Havis,
If you truly believe you are still under the Law, then you have yet to understand what it means to be a Christian. You should try reading the books Romans and Galatians again, and ask God to reveal the truth to you about your freedom from the Law.
As far as quoting Joshua and Achan’s sin, are you also going to follow Joshua’s example and kill the non-tithers and their entire families? While you’re at it, you better make sure all of the men are circumcised. (Joshua 6)
It is ludicrous to ask anyone to follow the Law unless you’re willing to follow ALL of it. But we already know how that story ended. It amazes me that so many Christians still want to try.
The simplest argument I can give against the tithe is that it was part of the Law. As Believers we are no longer bound to tithing any more than we are bound to circumcision or the Sabbath. Instead we are free to give with a willing and cheerful heart as the Holy Spirit leads us. To teach that the tithe is expected or required is no different than requiring circumcision or observing the Sabbath, and to do so is to teach a false Gospel, and that is a sin.
I think I’m done commenting in this post, because it is clear that your lack of understanding of the Scriptures blinds you to the truth. I will pray that God will open your eyes.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:41 am
Concerning the tithe, and all other matters “of the law”:
In Matthew 23:23, Jesus clearly attributes the tithe to a “matter of the law”. Having established that the tithe is a matter of the law, Matthew 5:17 states clearly that Jesus “fulfilled the law”. Paul goes on to elaborate on how the matters of the law apply to those who are IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST, we have fullness, we are circumcised, and the written code has been cancelled.
The ‘powers and authorities’, who once had a case against us because of the law (the written code), have now been rendered impotent, without legal standing, their case has been “thrown out of court” because for us, the law has been cancelled.
That is why it is written in Romans 8:1:
Havis comes bringing with him the law that has been cancelled for us, and trying to heap condemnation upon those who have NO condemnation in Christ Jesus. According to Paul, in the Book of Galatians, those who come in with a different gospel, i.e., those who come preaching the law, are false brothers. To get a feel for how Paul feels about these “law preaching” false brothers who had bewitched the Galatians AFTER they had accepted the gospel of peace given by Paul, please read Galatians 2:4, Galatians 2:12, Galatians 4:17, Galatians 4:30, Galatians 5:7-12, Galatians 6:12-13.
Finally, let’s look at Galatians 6:15
Where ‘circumcision’ is just one provision under the law, an outward show of a person’s covenant with the law, isn’t it just as well to say:
2 Corinthians 5:17
Havis, kindly take the law and the condemnation you are trying to heap on the brothers here, and leave. You are no brother of Christ Jesus.
Sam
June 8th, 2007 at 7:19 am
Samaritan,
To accuse Havis, a person you know very little about, as being no brother in Christ is a very bold move. I think you have missed his entire point. Do you not know that much of the OT is nothing but foreshadowing of the NT. I think Luke 11:42 does a nice job of outlining this whole issue. While Jesus came to fulfill the law he acknowledged that parts of the law were good (justice, mercy, faithfulness). Basically what I have found is Christians write the parts of the OT they don’t agree with off as the law and keep the parts that they want. I find this unfortunate. Paul said everything is permissible for me but I will not be bound by anything. The problem was people were being bound by the law following it for the sake of following it and God was getting no glory from it. If you read through the law we would be much healthier people if we continued to follow certain aspects of it, such as not eating food cooked in fat from animals. That being said do I still eat fried chicken, yes I am not bound by the law, might I eventually die of a heart attack because of that decision, possibly. From what I can tell Havis never said he was under the law, but rather he takes heed to what it says because it is the Word of God. Paul said in Romans that the law is not sinful.
Samaritan I would strongly caution you against being so ready to judge fellow believers that you really don’t know very much about. If you are not judging out of love your judgment and accusations can only be coming from one other source.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:19 am
It is not my assessment, Jtizzo. It is the assessment of scripture, particularly, the truth of the Gospel. Havis has chosen to live by the law. He is welcome to do so. Here however, and speaking for myself particularly, I live by and in Christ, and regard any man who tries to put me back under the law, as Havis is doing, or trying to heap condemnation on me, as Havis is doing, is no brother of mine, and is clearly not in Christ by virtue of preaching the law.
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18.
Clearly, Havis is not led by the spirit since he preaches the law, and not Christ and Him crucified.
Again, not my judgment, rather, it is the judgment of the scriptures - the logos Word of God.
If you desire further argument, please take it up with the Living Word, and let the rest of us celebrate being IN Christ and therefore free of what Havis is peddling.
Sam
June 8th, 2007 at 8:47 am
I am glad you know what Havis teaches never meeting him yourself. Could you please tell me where Havis said he lives under the law?
June 8th, 2007 at 10:53 am
Guess you have to meet someone in order know what they teach…..where’d you get that logic, jtizzo? The book of dumb ass?
I guess I need to meet Billy Graham in order to know that he teaches the message of salvation.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Havis is making many blanket statements about how he knows the hearts, minds, attitudes, motives and whatever else of all the bloggers, posters and readers here.
I do not see how his assumption is any different than one someone might make of him based on the things that he says.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Tithing is clearly a matter of the Law. I really don’t want to get into this because arguing with tithers about the tithe is a waste of time, but can you explain to me why the topic of the tithe never really came up in church history until the 4th century and wasn’t a widespread practice until the 8th century? Seems a bit odd - the Apostles don’t mention it, Jesus never taught it, it didn’t come up until the 4th century, but it’s a sin not to do it? Those poor early Christians must just not have known the Law. Oh, wait, Paul was a former Pharisee. Odd that he didn’t even preach the tithe. Instead he talked about being freed from the Law. That’s weird.
Strange that when the Apostles had the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, they didn’t instruct the believing Gentiles who didn’t know the Law that they needed to tithe.
I am not against giving money to a church, but I am against churches preaching the Law to make money. How is it any different from preaching the gospel for gain? Not to mention the fact that if you knew anything about the tithe in the Law of Moses, money was not a titheable object.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:34 am
Still can’t tell me where he said he was under the law, its always good to call people names when you can’t back up your own points. Rock I’ve never attacked you and have never said anything I haven’t backed with scripture where do you get off calling me dumb? Remember you will be judged based on the way you judge others.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Bloggers answer this question. Who was Melchizedek.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
The kingdom of Mega-church is like a family moves to a new place and sends their children to a new school. It looks great. All the rooms are neat and clean and the teachers and students look wonderful.
After a few days in the new school the parents ask their children what they learned. “Oh, we are learning all about nutrition!” they reply. The parents agree that’s a good subject and notice the children are eating their vegetables at the dinner table.
A couple of months go by and the parents are checking with the children again: “How’s school? What did you learn today?” The children are very proud of their grades. “I got on A today because I could name all the essential amino acids in our proteins!” The parents agree that’s wonderful, but ask them about their other subjects. Turns out they don’t teach other subjects. They just teach nutrition.
The parents are alarmed. They decide to have a conference with the teacher. They ask about math, reading, writing, grammar, history, etc. The teacher is very nice. She explains that when a child enters the school, they receive a few days of orientation that covers all those things. Then through the rest of the year, they may be called upon to use those skills in their nutrition work. The curriculum is the same throughout all the grades.
The parents at this point are pretty upset. They talk to other parents; some agree that it’s unbalanced, but after all, look how healthy the kids are. At one point the principle asks to talk to them, and chides these parents for upsetting the community. “Everything was fine,” he says, until they came along and started expressing their dissatisfaction. “Perhaps this isn’t the right school for you.”
Rumors get started about this family. Don’t they believe in good nutrition? They must have twinkies stashed in their cupboards! They’re sneaking potato chips to the neighbor kids during their pool parties. Pretty soon, no one is allowed to play with this family’s children because of the bad influence.
As a last resort, the parents pull the children out of the school. They talk to the teachers and the principle. They try to explain to others that children need to learn the first things first, and then they can learn about these other things. People do not listen. They just continue to focus on nutrition and how this family must just hate eating right. “Maybe they’re vegans!” is the whispered gossip.
The parents have developed headaches from banging their heads against the wall one too many times.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Why, he was king of Salem. The name Melchizedek means king of righteousness and salem means peace, making him the king of righteousness and peace. The Bible also says that he was a priest of God Most High.
If you’re going to use the story of Melchizedek to illustrate that the tithe is commanded to Christians, then you’re standing on some thin ice my friend. Can you hear it cracking under your feet?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Jtizzo … I can state by scripture that Havis is under the law, because he has elected to go back under the law of the tithe. To electively abide / live by one part of the law, is to elect to abide / live by ALL of the law. He preaches the tithe, which is of the law. So, he’d best bone up on the rest of the law so he can keep it … he’s also preaching condemnation for those who don’t come back under the law like he has …
Havis has chosen to remain OUT side of Christ, where the law applies. IN side of Christ, the law is cancelled, for Christ has fulfilled the law.
The choice seems simple:
Are you IN or are you OUT?
Sam
June 8th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Havis, answer this question. Who was Jesus?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
anna,
Did you come up with and write that analogy?
It’s very smart.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Hebrews 7:5
requires
who become priests to
from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Samaritan:
You are flat out wrong when you say that I am under the law. You can insinuate that all you like but that doesn’t make it true. My belief is base in thuth that precedes the law by some 400 years.
Answer the following questions without falling into your normal habit of beating around the bush. Yes I believe in tithing. There it is.
You or any of the non tithing bloggers cannot prove by the scripture that tithing has it roots in the law.
Samaritan you and the non tithing bloggers answer the following questions biblically. Say what you will or be small and ridicule. Just stand up and categorically answer the questions.
I could care less about your belief, your jargon, and your divertive tactics or whatever other evasive means you deploy to dodge my questions. I would like a straight biblical answer to each of the following questions with supporting scripture.
Heb 7:17. For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
1.) Is the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek an everlasting priesthood?
2.) How many men have ever occupied the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?
3.) Who was in the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek then?
4) Who is in the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek now?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Reformed Pope
Isa. 8:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Reformed Pope
Answer my questions on Heb 4:5
June 8th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
What’s the matter non tithing bloggers. Answer my question on Heb 7
Cat got your tongue.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
What do you think jtizzo? Has a cat got the non tithers bloggers tongue.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Havis asks: What about the OT position of God which says that the lack of tithing is sin?
Havis: The OT declares the withholding of the tithe to be a sin only under the Law of Moses. You will not find it in the patriarchal narratives before the Law. Those tithes were voluntary. Paul says that the law is no longer our master (Galatians 4:1-5). Christians are no longer slaves of the Law (having to pay God his required tax or else get “cursed”); they are children of God (able to be very generous as the Spirit and their own budgets dictate).
Havis says: It was a sin and by refusing to honor tithing Achan’s [sin lead to] his and his family’s death.
Havis: I can understand why a person who believes strongly in tithing could think that tithing was somehow involved in Achan’s sin in the sense that the war booty was to go first of all to the priests and then be redistributed from there; the idea of “first” brings to mind the thought of the “tithe” being the firstfruits of what Christians are taught is commanded by God. Nevertheless, I need you to show me where the words “tithe” or “tenth” or “tithing” or even “firstfruits” are used in the story of Achan. Until then, I can agree that Achan committed a serious sin, but I cannot accept your statement that it had anything to do with the tithe.
Please note: “In defiance of a command from Joshua (6:17–19), Achan took of the booty from Jericho (specifically: “a beautiful mantle from Shinar, two hundred shekels of silver, and a bar of gold weighing fifty shekels”) and hid the loot in his tent.” (Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 1, p. 54.) If Achan’s sin would have been a hiding of his “tithe,” then would not the story have told us how the 200 shekels of silver and the 50 shekels of gold were one-tenth of greater amounts somewhere in the camp? And, what would “a beautiful mantle from Shinar” have to do with not paying a tithe? Were there nine more garments located variously in the camp?
Havis asks: Where in the NT does it say that teaching and practicing paying tithe is a sin?
Havis: I have not found any verse in the NT that specifically says that “teaching and practicing paying the tithe” is a sin. Practicing a voluntary tithing as a non-essential of the faith would be between the individual believer and God (cf. Romans 14:22a). But, requiring believers to tithe when the NT does not, would seem to me to be a form of legalism. Paul would probably come really close to saying that any form of legalism is sin. Note his words: “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23).
Havis asks: Are we now making our own rules for what is and what is not sin?
Havis: I hope not. What has helped me is to realize that even though some of the laws in the OT were carried over to the NT and given deeper significance in Christ, e.g., the laws against greed and covetousness, not all of the laws were carried over. If I understand your logic correctly, and please correct me if I do not (that once a behavior is considered a “sin” in the OT, then it is still a “sin” in the NT), what do we do about the Sabbath Day commandment, which was an essential part of the Ten Commandments? What do we do with the civil laws that required that rebellious teenagers, witches, blasphemers, adulterers and homosexuals be executed? This is not to mention all of the ritual and purity laws of the OT. For the most part, I think Christians are safe if we allow the NT to define “sin” for us. What other reasonable and hermeneutical option do you think that we really have?
P.S. Dear Havis: I appreciate your sincerity and intensity in your desire to please God. I also agree with you that no one should call other people names like “idiot.” When that happens, I think the best response is not to come down to the same level by ending our remarks, as you unfortunately did, with “Lowest Regards, Havis” but to move in the grace and forbearance of God. Brother, I’d like to ask you not to react to the immaturities that are at times a part of this blog, but to go up higher and allow this blog to be an opportunity to exchange ideas in a mature fashion. You said of the MFI, “As for the member fees, we are delighted to contribute to such a wonderful organization as MFI.” Since you are a pastor/leader and a proud part of the MFI, I don’t feel it helps your reputation, or that of the MFI, to present yourself in such an inhospitable way on this blog, do you?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Hey Havis,
I will give you credit for the clearest biblical layout of the tithe I have ever seen. Now, I believe what you said about Melchizedek and Jesus.
My question is, if we are not required to circumcise and perform animal sacrifices (like Abraham did for His faith covenant 400 years before the law), why would we continue with the tithe?
If you can show we are to segregate the tithe from the other parts of the Abrahamic covenant and keep it for Christians today, why was this tithe a one time event for Abraham of funds that weren’t even his? How are we to use that as an example for us today?
June 8th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Havis wants a response on Hebrew 4 and 7.
Havis: I will try my best to respond in the near future. I assure you, I definitely have a response.
Dear Havis: Again, it does not help our perception of you, your postions, or the MFI when you make snippy remarks as to the cat and the tongue, etc. Since you are a member of the MFI, please try your best to keep this discussion civil and on a professional level. I would expect nothing less of MFI members!
June 8th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Craig:
You are right it is unchristlike to make off the cuff remarks and they will cease immediately. I do not care a whole lot what these non tithing bloggers think of me. I do care for the wonderful ministries of PBC, CBC, MFI and Atlanta City Church. For the future, I will refrain from making off the cuff remarks.
Gen 9-14 God continued to Abraham, “And you: You will honor my covenant, you
and your descendants, generation after generation. This is the covenant that
you are to honor, the covenant that pulls in all your descendants:
Circumcise every male. Circumcise by cutting off the foreskin of the penis;
it will be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male baby will be
circumcised when he is eight days old, generation after generation—this
includes house-born slaves and slaves bought from outsiders who are not
blood kin. Make sure you circumcise both your own children and anyone
brought in from the outside. That way my covenant will be cut into your
body, a permanent mark of my permanent covenant. An uncircumcised male, one
who has not had the foreskin of his penis cut off, will be cut off from his
people—he has broken my covenant.”
Abraham is a precursor not only for his natural seed but also for his
spiritual seed.
The Message: Gal 3:8 A will, earlier ratified by God, is not annulled by an
addendum attached 430 years later, thereby negating the promise of the will.
No, this addendum, with its instructions and regulations, has nothing to do
with the promised inheritance in the will.
Gal 3:28 & 29 In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and
non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That
is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you
are Christ’s family, then you are Abraham’s famous “descendant,” heirs
according to the covenant promises.
Eph 2: 11. Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth
and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision”
(that done in the body by the hands of men)–
12. remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from
citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise,
without hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought
near through the blood of Christ.
14. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed
the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15. by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and
regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the
two, thus making peace,
What is meant by foreigners to the covenants of promise
Forget about the law and look at tithing from a covenant standpoint.
Tithing was always a part of Abraham’s Covenant relationship with God and
he passed it on to his seed
Ge 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s
house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto
thee.
If the tithe of Abraham to Melchizedek was a single incident and it was
never to be repeated how did Jacob the grandson of Abraham come to the
knowledge of tithing?
As for your question concerning Circumcision
Quoting Craig: My question is, if we are not required to circumcise and
perform animal sacrifices (like Abraham did for His faith covenant 400 years
before the law), why would we continue with the tithe?
We are not required to sacrifice animals because Jesus fulfilled the law of
animal sacrifice. He was the one time perfect sacrifice.
Ge 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and
thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man
child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with
money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must
needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an
everlasting covenant.
Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the
everlasting covenant.
Circumcision is a N T truth if you understand that the O T act of physical
circumcision was Abraham’s precursor for N T heart circumcision.
Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of
the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men,
but of God.
According to Paul in I Colossians 2:10. and in him ye are made full, who is
the head of all principality and power:
11. in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with
hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of
Christ;
12. having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised
with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The covenant of circumcision has been invoked upon us through the act of
water baptism. (circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands,
having been buried with him in baptism, also raised with him through faith.
If you are sincere in receiving the truth of tithing you must look at the
covenants of promise and not at the law.
The real issue in the O T was not penile circumcision but heart circumcision.
It is the foreskin of the heart that separates us from God.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of
your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come
forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of
your doings.
De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more
stiffnecked.
De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of
thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy
soul, that thou mayest live.
Both tithing and circumcision are not law issues they are covenant issues.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Samaritan:
I am repeating myself. Can I get some comments on my Questions.
You are flat out wrong when you say that I am under the law. You can insinuate that all you like but that doesn’t make it true. My belief is base in thuth that precedes the law by some 400 years.
Answer the following questions without falling into your normal habit of beating around the bush. Yes I believe in tithing. There it is.
You or any of the non tithing bloggers cannot prove by the scripture that tithing has it roots in the law.
Samaritan you and the non tithing bloggers answer the following questions biblically. Say what you will or be small and ridicule. Just stand up and categorically answer the questions.
I could care less about your belief, your jargon, and your divertive tactics or whatever other evasive means you deploy to dodge my questions. I would like a straight biblical answer to each of the following questions with supporting scripture.
Heb 7:17. For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
1.) Is the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek an everlasting priesthood?
2.) How many men have ever occupied the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?
3.) Who was in the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek then?
4) Who is in the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek now?
June 8th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
eleytheria: How about answering my 4 questions on Heb. 7
June 8th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Havis,
You can read all I have to say about the tithe, in these articles.
To Tithe or not to Tithe: the $earch for Truth
Tithe Follow-up
The Tithe: Who’s Robbing Who (My personal favorite, Havis)
Just What was Abraham’s Example
Fun With Numbers
The Tithe: Final Thoughts
I’ve also written what I consider the only plausible defense of the tithe, at THIS LINK. Please note however, it is NOT what you think. The tithe was given to the Levites, who were the singers and musicians and worship leaders in the temple in Jerusalem. IF the tithe were to be carried over in to the NT, it should be the worship leaders (singers and musicians) who receive it, not the pastors. If you are going to translate the tithe to the NT, then translate it completely. Because quite frankly, ministers are ROBBING the worship leaders by denying them their wage/meat/share.
And honestly (this is not a popularity contest) how many people would come to your religious services, if there were no music, worship and praise? Not many!
Concerning Melchizedek and Hebrews 7, I have addressed it previously in one of the articles above. Here is is, excerpted for you:
June 8th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
David Mackin
Sorry about the remark. Refraining from negative comments for the future. No excuses I should not stoop to the level of others.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:17 pm
I have replied to you, at length, Havis. However, because my post has many embedded links, it requires approval by the blog owner. Please be patient. I’m certain you won’t be disappointed in my worthy reply.
Sam
June 8th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Havis I have still yet to see any evidence of you saying you were under the law…I am assuming that means you never said any such thing. I find it unfortunate that people would put words into your mouth and then judge you. I am also struggling to understand why the people on this BLOG have such an issue with CBC because of tithing, I have never been in a church that does not teach tithing. I know for a fact the vast majority of the churches in the area I live teach tithing. I am not going to get into the debate on whether tithing is required because I have never really studied the issue. I personally tithe because I believe in the vision of my church and want to support it. I do not do it as a way to buy my way to God or to somehow fulfill some type of obligation.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
What Kind of a relationship Does Melchizedek have with Jesus Christ .
Both occupy the same office as a priest for ever in the order of Melchizedek .
June 8th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
jtizzo: Ask all of the bloggers on this site to produce a single statement from me that says that I believe I am under the law. These bloggers have tried to placed me under the law because I will not backpeddle on the issue of tithing. Havis is under the law is their statement not mine.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Hey everybody,
I thought you’d like to know (as if it isn’t obvious), that Havis and Jtizzo are in cahoots … the IP of both trace to fuse.net of Cincinatti, OH, a local provider. The variations in IP suffixes suggest dial up. How lame.
As for Havis being under the law, between myself and Johnpaul, we have already established by 2 scriptures noted above, that the tithe is an element of the law. In maintaining believers must tithe, Havis is electing to abide by the law, and trying to put the FREE SONS back under the law. According to Galatians 5:2-3 quoted below, anyone who elects to live by one provision of the law, is obligated to live by the whole law. Hence my assertion that Havis is under the law, and therefore a false brother.
Have fun with those animal sacrifices, Havis. BTW, it’s after midnight in Cincinatti (Goshen). You really ought to get some sleep, Havis, or you’ll be cranky in the morning.
Sam
June 8th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
jtizzo:
Seems all the bloggers are away for the week end. The silence from the lack of hammering the doctrine tithing is law is deafening.
I have said and continue to say that tithing is a part of my covenant relationship with God. Covenants are made and confirmed with tokens. Jesus brings his blood to the covenant and I (being of the seed of Abraham) bring the 10th part of my blessing to Jesus as Abraham brought his 10th Part too Melchizedek. I say it, over and over, again and again, I do not tithe because someone has constrained me and told me that I must tithe. I tithe because I want to. I love tithing. I have faithfully lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me. Of course I do not stop my giving with the tithe. I also liberally and joyful give love offerings to the work of God both in my church and in other churches.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Havis I guess since we live in the same city we are booth in cahoots (like nobody else on this blog is). You know there are only two people who live in Cincinnati me and you I guess. I think the critical spirit of Sam is evidence by the fact that he is even critical of our method of connecting to the Internet; which for the record I do not use dial up.
If you are saying you are not going to associate with any Christians because they believe in tithing you are not going to be associating with very many Christians. You are essentially saying that if someone believes in tithing they are not in Christ. Be careful because you will be judged the same way you judge others. I believe in tithing and I tithe and I can assure you my life is not ruled by the law. I tithe because I want to not because I am ruled by the law.
By the way sam have I presented anything as fact on this blog that I have not backed by scripture. I really don’t understand why you would be critical of me.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Havis, my response to your Hebrews challenge is posted above. It is about 9 or 10 posts before this one. I’d appreciate it if you’d take the time to read it fully and all of the linked articles.
Sam
June 8th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Samaritan:
You really are way out on a branch by trying to become a self proclaimed expert of what you think I believe. You don’t have a clue as to the basis of my belief because you are not only free from the law you are a rank strange to the covenants of promise.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Samaritan you are a little harsh on me aren’t you calling me a false brother. I have made a vow that for the future I will not respond in like kind. You are engaging in name calling because you cannot support your claims of teaching that tithing is a sin. Show me that in black and white or quit making such a foolish and ridiculous claim. You are frustrated because I have backed you in a corner that makes you deny scriptural truth. TITHING DOES NOT HAVE ITS ROOTS AND SOURCE IN THE LAW BUT RATHER IN COVENANTS OF PROMISE THAT SUPERCEEDED THE LAW BY 430 YEARS. When you have the courage to acknowledge this you will see the real scriptural truth concerning the source and the origin of tithing. Then your tithing is of the law theory will become null and void.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Sam:
There you go again avoiding the questions that I have confronted you with Why don’t you answer my four questions about Melchizedek. You wanted a debate on tithing. Lets get it on now you have one. You are either afraid or you do not possess the scriptural knowledge to answer my questions. I will answer the question from before. Who is Jesus? Jesus Christ and Melchizedek are one and the same. There can only be one priest in the order of Melchizedek he is a priest forever. The Melchizedek order is eternal and everlasting which absolutely eliminates any possibility of two separate individuals occupying the office of the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek. When you have have the courage to acknowledge this truth you will have Abraham paying tithe to Jesus. Youur tithing by law theory will then take wings and fly away. Sam you have just been cancelled, eliminated, nullified and read like last nights mewspaper.
Regads
Havis
June 8th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Sam I still don’t see how you rationalize calling someone a false brother because they teach a doctrine that is different from yours. There are many people who preach Christ and believe in tithing, would you say that all of them are false brothers? Would you stop someone from preaching Christ because they have a different view on tithing than you do? There are people on their way to burning in hell and you are concerned about rather or not you are required to give 10% of your income. I think your priorities are a bit off. For being so against the law you come across as very legalistic.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I’m just curious if people don’t tithe how are churches supposed to keep the lights on? If pastors are not supposed to recieve $ from tithes how are they supposed to feed their families?
June 8th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Sam
Dont try to avoid answering my questions by challenging me to search through your endless jargon looking for a needle in a haystack. You challenged me to a debate and I have answered your challenge. You non tithing bloggers have made the statement that tithing is a sin. Chapter and verse please. Where is it? I repeat my request for the forth time. Answer these four questions specifically and individually with supporting scripture.
Heb 7:17. For it is declared: “You (Jesus) are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
1.) Is the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek an everlasting priesthood?
2.) How many men have ever occupied the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?
3.) Who was in the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek then?
4) Who is in the office of the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek now?
June 8th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
jtizzo:
Me thinks, I am being ignored by those who demaded of that I state my position which I have.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
I find it sad when people are limited by the law (and the made up 10% law). As a former CBC’er (as in kindergarden through college), the first time I went to another church, that actually taught from the bible, I thought they were making things up. I didn’t belive Galatians until I read the whole thing for myself. It blew my mind. It also made me angry in the sense that I felt I’d been lied to my entire life at CBC.
This church teaches from the Bible, doesn’t take an offering (box in the back of the room so that your giving can be just between you and God), and preaches a direct relationship with God. No need for law, Jesus took care of that. If you’re only giving 10% of your money, 10% of your time, 10% of your life, you’re robbing yourself, not God.
I encourage everyone to read at least Galatians with a new mind and heart and ask God to speak to you. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will challenge you as he challenged me. Don’t give God only 10%. Give everything gladly!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
2 Corinthians 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
June 9th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Ah! Like oil and wine, your words make glad an old heart, my friend. Thanks!
Sam
June 9th, 2007 at 9:08 am
So is your only hold up on tithing the issue of the 10%? I would agree that if someone is only giving out of a since of duty then they are better off to not give at all. What I think you fail to realize is that anyone that does anything for God only out of a sense of duty is missing the mark, rather it be tithing, teaching, evangelizing, etc. Havis hit the nail on the head to tithe out of duty alone would be the same as getting circumcised in the flesh alone. I don’t tithe out of since of duty, but rather it is another way for me to exercise my covenant relationship with God.
I would say that someone would have a hard time proving that a Christian is required to give only 10% of their income. When I get my paycheck I do not automatically tithe 10% of the amount, rather I pray and ask God what he wants me to give. If I hear nothing I give 10% because that is the guideline established in the OT. As I said in a previous post for me personally I believe that the OT provides healthy guidelines (not the we are bound to follow them) Actually I think the Christian is required to give more than 10%, I feel the Christian is required to give everything. Jesus told the young rich man to sell all of his assets and follow him. Not that Jesus was interested in his stuff he was simply saying that he wants access to all areas of our life. To sit here and have a debate about tithing is somewhat foolish. I think the answer is very simple; listen to God and do what he tells you to do with your money, your resources, and your life. I would never attack a church that teaches tithing only 10% as being legalistic and a group of “non-brothers”. I think the important thing is reaching people with the Gospel of Christ. After they get to know Jesus better they can search his word and come to their own conclusions on tithing. Do you honestly believe that somebody’s opinion on tithing has any determination on their eternal destination?
June 9th, 2007 at 9:17 am
If they’re teaching that you have to tithe to them/their church or else face the judgment of God, I think that they’re walking a pretty fine line. It’s not so much about their opinions, it’s about the fact that they’re fleecing the flock and preaching the Gospel for gain. Which is sin. Let’s not forget that James said that teachers receive a stricter judgment. It’s not my call to make about someone’s eternal destiny but the Bible is clear that people who lead others astray and use Christ for profit aren’t going to be sitting pretty with Him. How can a Pastor justify making over $200,000 a year in just salary from his church, not including the extra money he makes in honorariums from other churches?
June 9th, 2007 at 9:29 am
Well, that is what the Bible says.
Well, if Melchizedek was a man, then he’s the only man to have ever occupied the Priesthood in the order of Melchizedek.
Melchizedek.
According the the Bible, Jesus.
Now, my turn.
1. Why/to whom was the Book of Hebrews written?
If Hebrews 7 is all you have to back up your “law of tithing” (as you called it), then you stand in very dangerous territory my dear Havis.
June 9th, 2007 at 11:02 am
When we use (and argue against) the word Tithe here at City Business Church we are talking about the literal meaning of 10%…we believe and promote giving gerenerously…to your church, to those in need, of your time and resources…
I wouldn't argue with a church that tought 10% tithe in the way you just described it: 10% was establised in the OT and is a good guideline to follow…if that is what God is telling you to do. You are not bound by that 10%.
City Bible Church takes tithe to a whole new level: Besides teaching tithing in one out of every three sermons (at the minimum rate…where is their heart at, I wonder?) they tell you that "If you do not give 10% on everything all the time then God can not bless you" Frank Damazio spends weeks upon weeks manipulating people to give the church money…they don't preach Christ they preach prosperity for man…it's the American Dream, but it ain't Jesus.
That is why we blog.
Btw, there is no chance in hell that Havis agrees with what you wrote.
June 9th, 2007 at 11:50 am
eleytheria
You aswered the questions fairly accurate but you missed the point. Some bloggers teach that to receive tithes is a sin If Jesus is Melchizedek(which he is) 430 years before the law he collected the tiithe from Abraham. According to what you non tithing bloggers say Jesus is a sinner for receiving Abraham’s tithe. I repeat again and again the tithe did not originate in the law. It is part of an everlasting covenant which cammot be disanulled by the law or your refusal to pay the tithe. Be very careful in issues that are tied to covenant breaking.
Psa.89:34 is pretty clear on the issue of everlasting covenants.
June 9th, 2007 at 11:58 am
eleytheria
1. Why/to whom was the Book of Hebrews written?
lOOK CLOSELY AT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. TO WHOM WAS THE BOOB OF GALATIANS WRITTEN? Eleytheria you amaze me you have more twist and turns than hand made pretzel. Please get real and look at what you are saying. The book of Hebrews has more about Jesus Christ in it than any other N T Book.
Regards
Havis
June 9th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Book Not boob spelling tool missed it.
June 9th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Havis,
Are you a son of Abraham?
Were you in the loins of Abraham when he paid the tenth to Melchizedek?
By virtue of being in the loins of Abraham, didn’t Abraham already pay the tithe on your behalf?
Fast forward to Jesus Christ …
By virtue of being IN Christ (Melchizedek), does that mean we received the tithe of Abraham?
Are all men priests by virtue of being in Christ (Melchizedek)?
If the tithe did apply to Christians, should it be distributed among all believers, as priests?
What did Jesus mean when He said “the sons are free”?
Why is there no record in the NT of Jesus or the apostles teaching men to tithe?
Have you ever noticed that Jesus word choice in Matthew 23:23 is in the past tense, as it would be coming from Him who knew the law was coming to an end and was being replaced by the New Covenant? Why weren’t Christ’s words to the pharisees more direct and emphatic, as they were with the woman caught in the act of adultery (i.e., “go and sin no more”)?
Why do you think men who have given their very lives to Christ as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1) need to tithe? We have given Him all, why do you quibble about 10% of income? Filthy mammon, no less.
What do you think of these words from Paul in light of the typical teaching that the tithe comes first? “The husbandman that laboreth must be first partaker of the fruits” (2 Timothy 2:6 KJV)
These are but a few questions I have for you.
Sam
June 9th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Sam:
Say what you will but the covenant cannot be broken it is from everlasting to everlasting. I am a child (seed) of Abraham and the covenant of tithing is binding upon Abraham’s seed.
Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
I am one of Abraham’s children. No one has to encourage, preach, teach or command me to give the Lord his tithe. The Spirit of my father Abraham is in me urging me to keep covenant.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Lu 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
not to leave the other undone. This is a direct reference to tithing by Jesus Christ. You will be hard pressed to deny that.
Le 27:32 and concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passed under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
The 10th is holy unto the Lord and I will forever surrender it to him.
Why do you think men who have given their very lives to Christ as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1) need to tithe? We have given Him all, why do you quibble about 10% of income? Filthy mammon, no less.
We would not be on this subject if you non tithing bloggers were not spewing out quibble like a volcano about PF preaching and CDC receiving tithes.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Even mens covenants when confirmed cannot be disannulled.
Tithing (Filthy mammon) because it is in your pocket and not in God’s treasury. Be careful consider Achan.
God’s covenant with Abraham and his seed was confirmed by God swearing an oath to Abraham.
I am not bound by the law neither am I intimidated by the bending of the scripture to fit certain bloggers beliefs. I have been, am, and forever will be both with men and God a covenant keeper. My father Abraham has commanded me to keep his covenant.
June 9th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Havis,
Other than Abraham giving 10% of the spoils of war after returning from the defeat of Kederlaomer, can you show me any other place in scripture where Abraham gave 10% to Melchizedek?
There are so many points you conveniently overlook to push the tithe onto believers.
1) It was not income or of Abraham’s personal wealth that he gave the 10%, it was the spoils of war.
2) Melchizedek did not ask for the 10%
3) Melchizedek instead came out to offer Abraham bread and wine - a foreshadow of the Lord’s supper, the new covenant in Christ’s flesh and blood. In what Melchizedek did, I can hear the echo of Jesus words: “I did NOT come to be SERVED, but to SERVE, and GIVE MY LIFE as a ransom for many”
4) Are you suggesting that Abraham REGULARLY met with Melchizedek to give him 10%? If there were more than the 1 meeting between Melchizedek and Abraham, where’s the record of it?
5) You keep saying “covenant” - where did Melchizedek ‘cut’ a covenant with Abraham that said “give me 10% of all you earn”?
The Melchizedek / Abraham meeting was once, the 10% gift was voluntary, it was NOT asked for nor demanded. Abraham’s personal wealth remained at his home in Hebron, many miles to the south of Kings Valley where Melchizedek came out to meet him on return from defeating Kederlaomer. Are you suggesting extra-Biblical information, that Abraham dispatched some of his trained army of 318 men from his household, to go to Abraham’s home, and bring back 10% of Abraham’s wealth?
The Covenant between God and Abraham, which you continually refer to , is in Genesis 15. The experience is separate from Abraham’s experience (face to face with Melchizedek) in Genesis 14. What happened in Genesis 15 was a vision. God promised Abraham a son from his own loins, decendents as numerous as the stars, and land to live in. NOWHERE in Genesis 15 is there ANY mention of the tithe.
I do NOT think that God showed His favor/blessing to Abraham because he gave a one time, voluntary thank offering of 10% to Melchizedek in Gen. 14, rather, I think God blessed Abraham because Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). In fact, Hebrews 11:11-19, the ‘hall of fame of faith’, recounts Abrahams faith, following God to a strange land, offering his own son as sacrifice, etc. There is NO mention of the tithe offering as an act of faith, nor mention of the tithe as a component of the ‘covenant’.
We KNOW that it was NOT Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek that pleased God, it was the FAITH - that Abraham believed GOD. And we know that “without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6).
The covenant between God and Abraham is ONE WAY - God did it all - Abraham just believed. In fact, when Abraham tried to get a ‘jump start’ on the covenant with Hagar, he produced Ishmael. Likewise the same wit the new covenant: God did it all in Christ - all we do is believe to reap the reward.
Why do you think tithing is part of that covenant? If ANYTHING other than belief/trust were requried of us for the fulfullment of ANY covenant of God, we’d be doomed because we are sinful, of the flesh, and utterly incapable of upholding our end of the covenant without fail.
The Melchizedek offering you continually point to, was a one time, voluntary offering to Melchizedek who, if scripture is a complete and accurate record, only ever appeared to Abraham the once.
There is no, absolutely no evidence that Abraham tithed from income. None. There is no suggestion in Genesis 15, the covenant, that a tithe from Abraham was part of the covenant. God only required faith of Abraham.
Now, you personally may have made a covenant with God concerning the tithe, but that is for you only. There is NO scriptural mandate that believers tithe. The tithe Jesus mentions in matthew 23:23 is NOT the abraham/melchizedek 10th, it is the tithe that is required by the OT law, which was food, brought to teh temple, and collected by the Levite priesthood. Jesus speaks of that tithe (mint, dill, cummin) in the PAST TENSE, as it would be by someone who understood that the old covenant of the law was nearly done, to be replaced by a new covenant. Even Hebrews 7 (?) says that the Levites collected the tithe, as required by the law. So, with the law being cancelled in Christ, there is NO requirement to tithe.
Now, before you reply, there are things you should know about me. To follow the Lord, I gave up a great job with great income at the end of ‘98 at 42 years old. I moved cross country, sight unseen, from Seattle to north central Illinois where I am now. I have not had a job since, and have earned maybe $1000 total in the last 9 years. I write articles, all of which are freely given. I have recorded 3 CDs (2 Christian, 1 secular), and have never sold a one - but have given away about 3000 of them, at my cost or by the rare donation from doing free concerts. I have reinvested more than I have earned to continue giving away CDs and keep my web site up and running. So, frankly, any talk of the tithe is riduculous to me, because I have done my best to give all.
Realistically, the tithe doesn’t even apply to me, in the same way that it didn’t apply to Jesus because he was not a farmer he was poor.
You of course are welcome to tithe, however, it is not a requirement of the NT Christian believer. The sons are free.
June 9th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
and that’s the last we hear from Havis…
geez Sam…that was a regular ass thumping…I don’t think ole Havis knew what he was in for here at City Business…we like to do our homework.
Next.
June 9th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
[…] I shot over to Craig’s blog the other day and saw an entry that really stirred my thought’s regarding blogging. The question Craig asked was “Is Blogging about Churches a Sin? There is another blog, owned by a guy named Johnpaul that is similar to Craig’s with many of the same complaints about his former church, only far more abrasive then Craig’s. These two blog owners share similar experiences due to the fact that both churches are linked to MFI. Where Craig’s is more doctrinal in nature, Johnpaul’s is more satirical. I think the real question should be “Should Johnpaul shut down his blog”? […]
June 10th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
If anyone would have warned me about the way GC was going to shun me a couple years ago, I wouldn’t have belived them either.
When people fall out of favor with others the first place someone who is being shunned needs to look is in the mirror.
Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
Coult it be that you might have the nature of the Danite. Striking from a hidden position. Many of you hide your identity like a serpent in the way the refuse to deal openly with the rest of us who frequent this site. I have a huge, huge problem with those who write anonymously. I have absolutely no confidence in those who will not pin their name to the articles the white. They could be telling the trutr but their character nnd credibility are suspect because of a lack of being open.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Why don’t the lot of you, who operate anonymously, have the courage get out from behind your fig leaf aprons and let us have a real lok at you.
To me it just seems that you are taking the easy out on the issue of openness. Hidden things are always suspicious things.
Sam you still havent answered my questions?
Is Melchizedek Jesus Christ?
Is Abraham’s covenant an everlasting covenant?
Under what terms and condition could his everlasting covenant be altered?
June 10th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Havis…stop trying to change the subject. Sam completely destroyed your tithe logic…and you still haven’t connected Melchizedek to Abrahams Covenant…you have to do that before we discuss if the covenant is lasting.
-Johnpaul
June 10th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Havis, with all due respect for the elderly, your discussions have become boring and tedious, for you always fail to address the points and questions raised by others. instead, like a plodding mule, you push ahead with loaded questions to bolster your unsupported beliefs.
So I’ll answer your questions for all the good it will do you.
Is Melchizedek Jesus Christ? Yes and no. Melchizedek was without a Father. Jesus had a Father. Jesus however was the King of Righteousness, a human incarnation of Melchizedek - Melchizedek with a human body for God’s sin sacrifice - i.e., the lamb of God.
Is Abraham’s covenant an everlasting covenenant? (I’m assuming you mean the Genesis 17 covenant of circumcision.) The answer is twofold. “Yes, for those who by choice elect to live under it” - if you choose to live by circumcision, you will be judged by circumcision. The answer is “No, for those who choose to accept and live by the New Covenant in Christ’s blood”. I have chosen to live by the new covenant. In order to be under the Abrahamic (Gen 17) covenant, one had to be circumcised as a sign of consecration to that covenant. Which is why Paul said “if you let yourself be circumcised, Christ is of NO VALUE to you” (as it is written in Galatians). Interestingly, and I just looked this up to be sure, the Abrahamic covenent is deemed “conditional” in the summary of covenants in my NIV Bible … not that I have ever heard this term before, but it is called a “Suzerain-Vassal” (conditional) covenant. Essentially, it is an “opt-in” covenant - the sign of us having opted in, is the acceptance of circumcision (the law). I do not receive circumcision / the law. I affirm and receive the new covenant in Christ’s blood.
Under what terms and condition could his everlasting covenant be altered? The Abrahamic covenant is not everlasting for those who do not opt into it by circumcision. Because it is an opt-in covenant, a ‘conditional’ covenant, the Father can offer another, better covenant, which He has done in the blood of His only begotten Son. It is the replacement covenant I have received and live by.
Now Havis, even if I had answered these questions they way you had hoped, you can not demonstrate, by scripture alone, that tithing is a provision of the Abrahmic (Gen. 17) covenant. Nor is it a provision of the former Abrahamic covenant in Gen. 15 (land grant, promise of offspring).
I, like the other bloggers here, are among those ‘wild olive branches’ (and boy are some of these bloggers wild!) which have been grafted into the olive tree. It is by faith that we are made sons of Abraham and sons of God. We are not natural sons by covenant.
Please don’t have an aneurysm trying to tie the tithe to either of God’s covenants with Abram / Abraham, or trying to put grafted in gentiles under the old covenant between God and Abraham.
Sam
June 10th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Havis: JESUS CHRIST! I mean there’s an entire front page blog dedicated to responding to your questions. PLEASE don’t keep repeating the same things that’s been answered over and over again. Now your calling everyone snakes and serpents. I take that as a personal attack! SO Havis. Did I or someone else piss you off or something??? Why are you calling names?
June 10th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Why WTFWJD, I’m surprised you don’t recognize it for what it is: it’s an MFI ministry tool invoked to bring about submission: aka, ABUSE.
When Havis spews, I’m reminded of another aging MFI pastor: Doug Cotton and how he intimidated and controlled the Gray’s Harbor congregation through angry outbursts.
Havis being somewhat the same age as Doug, makes me wonder if health issue(s) may be a factor, here?
June 10th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
WTFWJD
You must be reading an older post. Sorry for the reference to snakes and serpents. unlike some of the other bloggers I have pledged to refrain from name calling.
June 10th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
No. Today. At 1:39 PM
Question: Why were you shunned from GC?
June 10th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Once again, dodge my questions, Havis. If you plan on having a real discussion, you really need to cut it out with all the insinuations, assumptions, and terribly cheesy and odd attempts at insults. You’re not going to convince anyone with the way that you talk. I guess you’re an accurate assessment of the products of the MFI regime, though. You’re pretty average for an MFI-ite. It’s pretty much how they all talk. The subtle (or, in Havis’ case, not so subtle) attempts at belittling everyone else, the assumptions (such as all non-tithers are sinners and covenant breakers), the inability to back up their statements with clear Biblical proof, the attitude that they’re better than everyone else, etc. It really helps remind me why I try to avoid the people I know who go to MFI churches.
Back on topic. Havis, if you’re going to try and make a point, then you have to be able to prove that what you’re saying the Scriptures you’re using prove is what the author intended. If you don’t know why the Book of Hebrews was written, then it’s easy for you to twist the Scriptures to mean what they were not intended to mean. You have to take the entire book into consideration and consider the historical time period. This is called context, Havis.
You say that I missed the point. I contend that you are actually the one missing the point. All I said is what the Bible says, nothing more, nothing less. You’re the one making unfounded assumptions and standing on dangerous ground of saying that the Bible says something that it doesn’t.
1.Abraham was not commanded to give a tithe to Melchizedek, as far as we know it was a free will offering from him.
2. It was not a part of the covenant the Abraham made with God, Abraham tithed to Melchizedek far before he made a covenant with God.
3. As far as we know, Abraham tithed to Melchizedek only once. Are we to tithe to God only once in our lives?
Hebrews 7 never says anything commanding the believers to tithe. If we are to read it in the context of the rest of the book, it is a very vital chapter in the book to prove the legitimacy of the priesthood of Jesus and how much better it is than the Aaronic priesthood. The author of Hebrews is not attempting to prove to his Jewish audience that they need to tithe (surely they knew well enough about the tithe), but instead that the priesthood of Melchizedek is far greater than the Aaronic priesthood, for even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek.
The chapter is not about the tithe, it is to prove the legitimacy of Jesus as our High Priest. The audience was Jewish believers who knew that, according to the Mosaic Law, all legitimate priests had to be in the line of Aaron.
Havis, it takes a real MFIer to completely ignore the fact that everyone on this board has ripped a hold the size of California in your tithing argument and continue asking the same questions that you’ve been trained by men to believe that you have the right answer to. All your argument has done is pull Scriptures out of context and attempt to twist them to say something that they do not say. Your lack of respect for the context of Scripture is what frightens me about the MFI organization, for truly you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to if you have no respect for context.
June 10th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
WTFWJD,
That confused me too (what Havis said about being shunned). But while I was reading through some of the other posts and comments, I found that posted. It was a different bloggers comment and Havis was quoting it. Sorry, don’t remember which post, but it was fairly recent (somewhere in the last 10).
June 10th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Sorry, I did not mean to offend by my remark about the danite and the scripture of the serpent biting at the horses heel. I was only trying to make a point that hiding and refusing to identify ourselves is not the way God does things. I have made a commitment not to attack or to offend and I will continue to refrain from remarks of any sort. I will also refrain from defending myself from others remarks.
I have another question for you non tithing bloggers who believe that Abraham’s tithe was a one shot deal.
Ge 20-22 Jacob vowed a vow: “If God stands by me and protects me on this journey on which I’m setting out, keeps me in food and clothing, and brings me back in one piece to my father’s house, this God will be my God. This stone that I have set up as a memorial pillar will mark this as a place where God lives. And everything you give me, I’ll return a tenth to you.”
Where did Jacob get the idea of giving the 10th part of all that God blesed him with. Ironic, don’t you think, that Jacob arrived at the same conclusion as his grandfather Abraham. Am I right in concluding that Jacob understood the tithe is the Lord’s. I know you non tithing bloggers will blow this off as coincidenctal with little meaning if any. So go ahead and give it your best shot.
Regards,
June 10th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Havis please go away –youre a waste of time and taking away from people
who truly want to get well. Go create your own blog!
RF & Samaritian –Please get this blog back to its original intent –everytime we get someone on
here like this or Cowboy esque it only leads to these diatribes that have been
done over and over again-circular reasoning.
Personally I think they’re sent here to stop the healing process brought about by this blog –and if you notice all humor starts. Help us please –we’re going down
signed tired of overextended reasoning
June 10th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Correction –all the humor ends.
June 10th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Havis,
As far as I am concerned, you do not get to ask any more questions until you answer those questions that have been asked of you.
Sam
June 11th, 2007 at 6:51 am
Does it REALLY matter in the whole scheme of things if you are pro-tithe or no-tithe?
What REALLY matters is loving and serving the Lord and dedication to the Lord…. something along those lines.
June 11th, 2007 at 9:12 am
I see it now. So not only does mr judgy have to run around here asking the same questions over and over, dodging the same answers over and over. He doesn’t have the courtesy to insult the right people in the right threads.
Thank you Havis for reminding me why I’ll never go near a “christian” church again. It’s full of people like you.
June 11th, 2007 at 9:19 am
jb said: “Frank didn’t start MFI, Dick Iverson did.”
jb: It is my understanding that this statement is true according to what Pastor Iverson has written in MFI materials, but it is not consistent with what Frank Damazio told me when my wife and family attended Eugene Christian Fellowship (ECF) in the early 1990’s.
Frank told me that several pastors came to him and asked him and ECF to be their spiritual “covering.” Frank hesitated and first asked some of the pastors he knew, like possibly Leonard Fox, David Schoch, George Evans, Ernest Gentile, etc. if they would be willing to head up a “covering” organization. They all said no. When he brought up the idea to Pastor Iverson, who already had the beginnings of such an organization with his several outreach churches, he was not interested, for the lack of a better way to put it. (I don’t remember exactly what Frank told me was the reason.)
So, Frank began to put together the MFI himself. He designed the logo, ordered the letterhead, and started putting together the monthly “seed packets.” When Pastor Iverson saw what Frank was doing, he reacted adversely to it. When Frank noticed the negative reaction, he offered the head leadership position of the MFI to Pastor Iverson, who accepted it, with Frank doing most of the work behind the scenes. Frank bluntly told me that, in his opinion, Pastor Iverson needed someone else’s help, like himself, to really make such an organization a success.
My sense was that it was somewhat difficult for Pastor Frank to have Pastor Iverson take the lead, but he did not want to allow a schism in the movement, so he let it go that way. So, originally, the MFI was entered as a non-profit in the Oregon Corporate Division with Dick Iverson as the principal and Howdy Sligar (now deceased) as the secretary. As of a couple of weeks ago, Dick Iverson is still the principal and Roxxi Kidder is the secretary. (Roxxi, if you don’t know, has been Pastor Iverson’s personal secretary and also has lived with the Iverson family for many years.)
June 11th, 2007 at 9:20 am
jb said: “Name me one other pastors’ organization that doesn’t charge a fee.”
jb: That is my whole point! Most, if not all, do charge. Denominations are simply business franchises with religious labels. Serving one another in the love of God should be free. Do we follow the ways of the world just because most are doing something?
June 11th, 2007 at 9:25 am
jb said: “The [MFI] fee is to send out materials to the pastors who need it.”
jb: The last time I saw the annual MFI budget was about three years ago. If I remember correctly, the total annual MFI budget was close to $250,000. That’s a lot of “seed” in the monthly “seed bag!” Wouldn’t you agree? In my opinion, what MFI members really need to do is to ask the MFI for a line-item annual financial report for us to know exactly how much money goes to Pastor Iverson and Pastor Frank, as well as their apostolic team members around the world for administration.
BT/CBC is an independent church. That means that the senior pastors who retire from it do not have a denominational retirement fund upon which to draw. Forming a ministerial association appears to be the next best thing! This gives a whole new meaning to what Pastor Iverson, and others, have said throughout the years: “There’s no retirement in the kingdom of God.”
June 11th, 2007 at 9:31 am
I find it interesting that the prosperity gospel proponents seem to covet the Abrahamic covenant, when Jesus said he came with a NEW COVENANT - that means it is not one of the OLD COVENANTS (Abrahamic, Davidic, Mosaic).
I am no biblical scholar, but if Jesus gave us a NEW COVENANT - and not a rehashing of one of the old covenants, why do we look to follow the Abrahamic covenant? Not even that, MFI teaches we only follow the tithing portion of it and not the more emphasised parts like circumcision.
From the preaching I got at an MFI church, it seemed they coveted the stuff Abraham got from the covenant (riches, land, camels).
Paul said he preached Christ crucified, and nothing else. If someone preached another gospel, let them be accursed (I think he was talking about the Old Covenant in Galatians).
As I said, I am no biblical scholar, but this seems pretty simple… Havis, I would like to hear your take on that. Maybe I just don’t understand covenants.
June 11th, 2007 at 9:34 am
jb said: “Also it’s easy to criticize, but what degree do you have in theology?”
jb: For what it is worth to you, jb, I have studied at the University of Santa Clara, the University of Portland, and earned my bachelors in Religion from Warner Pacific College. I also did some graduate work at Warner Pacific, but did not finish the master’s degree program. I also graduated from PBC in 1974 under the old three-year program.
I do not judge what a person says by how many letters he has, or does not have, after his name. I judge by what the person actually says or claims. The fact that Pastor Iverson was able to build up Bible Temple to the point that he did without having an earned degree of any kind, in my opinion, speaks to this idea.
June 11th, 2007 at 9:42 am
vroom said: “btw, it seems you were obsessed with people masturbating, and it seemed at one time you asked just about every young man that entered your office if they did. Do you still do that or is that just old information?”
That is old information. I no longer do that. I’m glad that you broached this subject because it gives me the opportunity to make a public apology which I have been thinking about doing for quite some time:
Public Apology:
I want to apologize publicly to all of my former PBC counselees, into whose private lives in this area, I was overly invasive and legalistic. I realize now how wrong I was for doing so. I ask for your forgiveness. If you, vroom, were one of them, would you also forgive me?
Bible Temple, an Anti-masturbation Culture:
Without taking away from the genuineness of my apology, I would like to add that I think that I was an “overly-loyal” part of the anti-masturbation culture at Bible Temple/Portland Bible College. Pastor Iverson showed how much he did not believe in masturbation when he had Warren Steele, former BT treasurer (now deceased) get up in front of all of the male PBC student in Ivy Hall and apologize for the pro-masturbation counsel he may have given to them! I know that Ken Malmin, PBC academic dean, also adopted the same negative view on the subject (as with Frank Damazio, the last time I spoke with him about the subject when we ministered together in Puerto Rico, @ 1975-76).
Mormons & Masturbation:
By the way, the other day I was chatting with a former Mormon high priest, whom I will call Gess. Gess told me that the Mormon bishop had just told his son that he was not qualified to go out on his two-year mission trip. This was quite a shock to his son! I asked Gess why the bishop turned his son down, and he told me that it was because his son had admitted to the bishop that he masturbated. Gess commented that his son still had to learn what he should and should not tell the bishop! A little later, Gess told me that the bishop had accepted his son into the two-year mission program. By that time, I had figured out why.
June 11th, 2007 at 10:03 am
vroom: “As his friend have you gone to him in person about these things? Surely he would receive you. Have you even tried?”
vroom: Over the years, I have sent Frank two notes. He did not respond to either one of them. Just the other day, I sent his CBC Pastoral department a copy of my post, “Pastor Frank, repent!” and, so far anyway, I have not received a response.
If I was given the opportunity, I would love not only to share my concerns with Frank, I would like to have a long session with all of the CBC elders and then the entire congregation! I would preach (not “teach” since you said that I was a much better preacher than teacher!) a message to all of the people at CBC, etc. about spiritual freedom!
Your comment, “Surely he would receive you!” may be very well-intentioned, but it reminds me of my feeling-based idealism before I came out of my heavenly fog and realized that such churches have nothing to do with “old friends” still having influence. On the contrary, the ones that I have seen have to do with the senior pastor actually “making friends” only or mainly with those in the church who agree with him (and, sometimes, mostly with the wealthy in the congregation)!
If I’m not mistaken, I think that you may need someone or something to open your eyes to the political and economic realities of the institutional church. If you do not mind me asking: how old are you, anyway? Vroom, the IC is a corporate business enterprise and it is run accordingly. I wish I were wrong on this one. If I am, maybe God will use you to help me to see it differently.
Peace to you, my brother.
June 11th, 2007 at 11:13 am
David,
I am ordained with the Free Methodist Church, Oregon Conference, and they do not charge a fee for being a member. In fact, they have sent money to me for teaching at poor congregations, when the congregations were unable to provide an honorarium. The denomination was formed in the 1860’s on the basis of ethics in church leadership, feedom of worship, ending slavery, and the need to keep the pews from being offered to the wealthy for $.
June 11th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Larry Taylor wrote: “David, I am curious. What are the facts about the real estate purchases by “Damasch Investments LLC”. I find nothing on any transactions in Oregon, but I am probably looking in the wrong places.”
Larry: My source on the Damazio-Schefter purchase of a valuable investment property at Government Camp was one who I know to be very reliable. They have also informed me that these two pastors are presently addressing the relationship between their personal assets before Ed goes back to New York. If my source is correct, Eternity will belong solely to Ed before he moves to the East coast. I do not have the details beyond that.
I am not in possession at the present time of documents showing the Government Camp purchase or how the funds of the Eternity play were distributed or invested. The fact that I did not take the time to obtain the documentation before I made my claims, should have been caution enough to me not to say what I did. Because I posted them a bit too hastily, and since I do not have the time to research them properly, I have pulled these two comments from my “Pastor Frank, repent!” posting with my sincere apologies. What I stated in both of them may or may not be true to fact but before I get the documentation in hand, I will choose to err on the side of caution. Thank you, Larry, for helping me to keep carefully walking the line.
June 11th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Larry Taylor wrote that his church does not charge a monthly dues or fee…
Larry: How refreshing! Thanks for that great personal example. At the risk of sounding defensive, however, I posted with the words: “Most, if not all, do charge…” “Most” is not “all” - but your point is still well taken. Thanks!
I wonder how many other denominations do not charge monthly dues. Do you know of any others? And, how does your denomination support itself without monthly dues from the member congregations - or do you mean they charge the member congregations but just not the individual pastors?
June 11th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
David says:
I gag at the title of pastor in conjunction with shifty shefter..
June 16th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Ed Shefter is in Ministry!?
So … so shocked.
–p
September 20th, 2007 at 11:52 am
FICM wrote: David, I’m thrilled that you will actually be sending this to PF. I can’t wait to hear what happens!
FICM: No respone to date.
September 20th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Havis wants a response to tithing and Christ’s high priesthood relative to Hebrews 4 and 7.
Havis: I have posted a response as an article on the cbc blog. Thank you for sharing with us some excellent points and questions.