Repent, Pastor Randy! (name changed)
Posted on June 2nd, 2007 by David Mackin into the David Mackin Writes: categoryvroom asked:
"What exactly do you think he [Pastor Randy (name changed)] should repent of?"
vroom, If I understand things accurately, I think that Pastor Randy should repent of:
(1) not telling his church that he does not believe in the same doctrine of biblical inerrancy posted on his own church's website (maybe he's changed his mind since he last talked with me and gave me that distinct impression);
(2) his unbiblical doctrine of the "Faith Harvest Offering" which makes Christians earn God's favor through financial offerings (the support for which one of Randy's staffers gave to Reformed Pope but still without a source even after receiving a request for it!);
(3) the false teaching of the mandatory tithe, which is not taught in the New Testament for believers;
(4) operating the local church like a one-man show, promoting himself, his ministry, his books, his CDs at the expense of others being overlooked - not operating a true team ministry;
(5) steering the local church's Bible college away from genuine academics by firing two of the most academically-oriented staffers; making it more of a pool of free volunteers to support his own vision;
(6) forming an association for senior pastors and charging for their membership - which really should be a non-monetary and free fellowship of brothers in Christ;
(7) making too much money from the local church (reliable sources tell me he makes over $200,000/yr salary + benefits + guest speaking honorariums + royalties from his side business/ministry)
(8) being the only one supported by the local church to have a retirement plan (per one of the elders of the church); who made this decision? the senior pastor? the elders? the people?
(9) preaching too much about money and thus ignoring most of the other parts of the Bible; actively promoting the false gospel of financial prosperity;
(10) extending his own ministry via a simulcast network instead of sending out pastors to plant their own churches in those areas and "sharing the pulpit" with other men instead of being the continuing central focus and celebrity; continuing, with each simulcast campus extension, to be more aloof and removed from the people who pay his monthly bills;
(11) turning the church into a high-tech theatre for Christian entertainment with the platform being the central focus of the drama rather than the people themselves who deserve to share the Word, prophesy, move in the gifts, carry each other's burdens, and pray for one another during the weekend services and not just in their marginalized, small groups.
(P.S. Obviously, these points of concern can apply to many others in the ministry as well. Please let me know if I do not have any of my facts straight, and I will make it right. I plan to send this posting directly to Randy so that those who are concerned about me gossiping behind someone's back will have their concern addressed.)
June 2nd, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Also: he says shitty a lot.
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:38 pm
I somehow recieved an NYC Church –please give us your money letter today —’because we desparately need 60,000 for some last minute expenses’. After all I’ve read here -and gratefully about what was behind the Eternity play –I find it all quite unbelieveable. What dumb sheep you think we truly are -non discerning right?
I guess they think the Lord has no eyes to roam to and fro throughout the earth?!
I’m thinking of writing a new play call INTEGRITY–with no commissions paid
or money made. What do you think? Do you think it will be a hit on Broadway?
Luv your post Dave –nothing speaks like specifics and you have em here.
June 2nd, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Frank didnt start MFI, Dick iverson did.
Name me one other pastors orginization that doesnt charge a fee. The fee is to send out materials to the pastors who need it.
Also its easy to criticize, but what degree do you have in theology?
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:32 pm
David,
I’ve never seen Pastor Frank more pastoral. His executives have taken over more of his administration duties.
Eternity no longer exist they dumped it sometime ago. Don’t know where
you got your information and don’t care. RI I suspect.
PF’s text messages # is out to over a 100 teens who message him.
He responds to each one.
He made everyone of his sons BB games and even missed a sunday to be with his son. I like that.
He is more accessible than he has ever been before.
His heart for the lost is sincere.
Simulcast may not be for everybody but for it works just fine for some.
If a person does not like it then don’t go there. It’s as simple as that.
Why are you harping on it?
Church is not a high tech theatre, they do the best they can with what they have and really do a good job. Sure we always wish things could be better.
Ken Ross and Larry Taylor were as boring as you were when you taught
at PBC. My opinion of course, you were not a very good teacher David but you were one of the best preachers I’ve ever heard at BT. You and Wendell were hands down the best.
btw, it seems you were obsessed with people masturbating and it seemed at one time you asked just about every young man that entered your office if they did. Do you still do that or is that just old information?
Because I think you have a lot of old information here. Why wing it in
Frank’s face?
Does he operate it like a one man show? Why are you complaining about it, you don’t even go there.
How do you really know PF preaches to much about money? Is that your opinion or God’s?
I personaly could care less, I have to answer to God for what I do just as one day Frank will. If God has truely blessed him who are we to complain
or judge him?
David you have been obsessed with BT/CBC since the early 90’s. I think you really got hurt there for unjust reasons.
Are you sure you are really free like you say you are? Or are you living in the past and bringing up old information that is not relevant for today?
Why do you spend so much energy on this stuff, let it go and go do something for God.
I have my own frustrations as well and have gotten sidways with CBC leaders a time or two but I believe in the man and his vision.
As his friend have you gone to him in person about these things?
Surely he would receive you. Have you even tried?
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:59 pm
The Internet is the new Wittenburg Door!
I’m sure David can defend himself admirably, but I thought I’d address vroom’s comments…
* PF cannot possibly be “pastoral” to his own 2,000+ congregation, let alone several campuses. Maybe he gives you that impression, but try asking him for a meeting someday and see what happens.
* Eternity has not been dumped. Ed is simply moving it to NYC as part of his becoming “senior pastor”.
* Who counts PF’s text messages? Does the entire congregation have his personal cell phone number? I find that hard to believe. Call the church office and ask for his number, and wait for the laughter.
* Going to your kid’s games is not particularly noteworthy as many parents to the very same thing every day. Skipping church to do so is fine, unless it’s your job to be at church because you’re the pastor.
That is why he gets paid, right? How does it feel that your tithe money paid for him to skip work?
* Accessible? How? Can anyone from the 3 campuses meet with him? I can’t even see my doctor without an appointment 3 weeks in advance unless I’m dying, so how is he more accessible?
* We’ve blogged before about his “sincerity” for the lost. Of all the converts at Eternity, how many did he personally follow-up on and disciple them to spiritual maturity? If he retained even 10% of the converts from these plays over the last decade, he would have his goal of a church of 10,000 a long time ago.
* Simulcast does not equal pastoring. He should be raising up pastors to start their own churches. It is a symptom of his need for control and power.
* I love high tech. But in my opinion, some of their decisions regarding high tech purchases are ineffective and wasteful when it comes to preaching the Gospel and discipling people. No one was ever saved by a plasma screen or an espresso cart in the lobby.
* The firing of certain PBC personnel had more to do with getting rid of people who were at odds with PF’s vision of indoctrination. They actually wanted an accredited college to teach students to think for themselves. PF couldn’t have that now, could he?
* PF’s reputation for control and micromanagement is infamous. Those who have worked with him over the years could tell you stories…
* The whole basis of this blog is about CBC’s obsession about money. You haven’t read much here to ask such a silly question!
* “I personaly could care less” - It’s people like you who allow PF to profit from teaching a false doctrine about money. We do care, because we love Christ’s church and wish to see it free from such corruption, and not just because we love to bash PF (although it can be fun).
* The fact that so many people here contribute regarding these things should be clear evidence that this is not just some isolated incident or a personal offense. Open your mind and read a few more blog entries here before judging one poster so hastily.
* Your frustrations will not get any easier, trust me on that one. As a survivor of 12+ years, I had to get so fed up with everything before I could bring myself to leave. But I could have avoided years of frustration if I had trusted my brain which was saying “this is wrong”.
“As his friend have you gone to him in person about these things?
Surely he would receive you. Have you even tried?”
You definitely have not been reading this blog for long. David has posted much of his personal history with PF here and it documents clearly the outright abuse he has felt at the hands of PF and MFI.
Before you start challenging people about these things, you really should do some more reading up…
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:01 pm
David, I’m thrilled that you will actually be sending this to PF. I can’t wait to hear what happens!
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:16 pm
vroom,
I was the one who originally made the comment that PF needs to repent. And I haven’t had the chance to properly respond to your query “repent of what?” Other people have answered admirably (thanks FICM and David), but none of these things are what I had in mind when I said that.
In my heart, I only see one thing that he needs to repent of: leading people to SECONDARY things, and not to the Lord Himself.
For me, this realization all started when he did a series on honor. I remember his words, “I want you to aim your life toward the goal of honor.” And in my spirit, I protested “NO! Follow the Lamb wherever He goes, and the honor will come later.”
After that, I began to listen, and now I hear him say these sorts of things often. The latest is “Position yourself to open the windows of heaven…” And again, I say, “NO! Position yourself at the feet of Jesus, and He will give you whatever you need.”
There is a verse in Jeremiah 2 where God says, “Be astonished, O heavens… for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken Me, the Fountain of living waters, and have hewn themselves cisterns — broken cisterns that can hold no water.” That is exactly what happens when the focus is taken off the Lord and put on honor, or windows, or prosperity, or whatever.
Where is the sermon that extols God — for Himself alone. Not for what He can give you, not for what He will do on your behalf. Just for Himself — His majesty, His beauty, His kindness, His perfect judgments, His mercy, His worth! When does PF preach Christ, and Him crucified? Is that not the center of Christianity: a people in love with their God?
Oh, I’ve heard him in the past talk of a burning love for Jesus, not a love that once was back in ‘72, but his current relationship with the Lord. I’ve not heard that nor seen evidence of it lately. It makes me weep. That needs to be at the center of his messages.
And THAT is what he needs to repent of. In Rev. 2 the Lord tells the messenger of Ephesus, “I know your works, but I have this one thing against you: you have left your first love. Repent and do the first works, or I will remove your lampstand unless you repent.”
You ask, have I talked to him about this? No. I talked to my DP when I left. I cannot talk to PF. I have no relationship with him. I’ve been in BT/PBC/CBC for 25+ years, but never once had a conversation with PF. If I tried, there would be no reason for him to listen to me.
I know he hates it when intercessors try to tell leaders what they have heard — as if they are telling them what to do. He thinks that’s backwards. Well, if the apostles don’t listen to the prophets, then the whole thing goes haywire, and that’s exactly what has happened. That is the result of the Nicolaitan mindset. It ignores the eyes and ears of the Body.
And besides, I was not chosen to lead these people, PF was. And so all I can do is pray that he will listen to the Holy Spirit and repent of leading God’s people to anything other than Him.
When I was going through the agony of deciding whether to leave or stay, I had a vision. I was asking the Lord what He thought of all this, and I saw myself and PF on the sapphire pavement. The Lord Jesus was standing there as in Rev. 1 holding the 7 stars in His hand. He said nothing, but I fell on my knees and kept urging PF to do the same. (Short vision — almost a picture more than a vision maybe).
Anyway, it will come true someday as we all appear before the Lord Jesus. I would hope though that PF will come to that point sooner than later, and fall on the Rock before it falls on him.
grace
June 2nd, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Former Inner Circle Member wrote: * The whole basis of this blog is about CBC’s obsession about money. You haven’t read much here to ask such a silly question!
A light bulb went off in my head last night. I worked for the church but woke up one day and found myself in a very deep depression and eventually quit (or was let go) from staff. I got very depressed when I’d attend church after that and stopped going for a loooonnnggg period of time. My roommate continued to get mail but I was dropped off the mail list. That has bugged me for so long because I was very faithful for 12 years, worked not only full time at the church but full time after the 8 to 5 at the church and was dropped from the mailing list. It just hit me (thanks to cityBUSINESSchurch.com…I’m a little slow) that I wasn’t giving regularly anymore. It was the money. I gave thousands to help with the building on Rocky Butte and because I wasn’t giving anymore, they knew I wasn’t there AND DROPPED ME.
June 3rd, 2007 at 1:17 am
Anna, I just wanted to say that your post hit a “RIGHT ON!” mark in me.
This is exactly correct. Frank is not a bad guy. He’s not the devil. He is merely running “his” church like a business instead of putting the absolute #1 focus directly onto Jesus, all the time.
A church-goer should NEVER have to listen to the holy spirit protest like this:
This is the key. The holy spirit instructs us to follow Jesus, in everything, without exception. The “rest” will come later.
Once a church starts losing their focus on Jesus, and begins promoting the the “secondary” stuff instead of Jesus… it’s game over and they have lost their way.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:04 am
Well said, Anna!
I can’t ever remember PF preaching the Gospel story, not even at the Eternity plays. I think many pastors fall into the trap of assuming that they are “preaching to the choir” - that everyone is saved or already understands the basics so they avoid talking about it.
In my opinion, churches would do well to preach the Gospel story the majority of the time, rather than as a special event when they want to bring in new converts.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:16 am
Anna -that also hit a note with me because when I left our MFI affiliate –
a very close one to Portland –and went somewhere that Jesus was attending -
it was like WOW I found the Lord –than the realization ‘I didn’t know He was missing.’ How could this be –I was an intercessor involved in 24 hour prayer
all the activities including the eternity play and everything on or off the church calendar. Your classic mistake –being so busy I somehow lost the Lord in it all.
Than the next truth hits you –the atmosphere there keeps you so busy that you don’t have time to think of the Lord truly for we were ‘especially’ see this underlined “idolizing our pastor” to the point of being in love with him. As I’ve interviewed countless people who have left there that is the common denominator–if he had said go jump off a bridge we would have formed an orderly ‘under cover’ lineup.
How the Lord was grieved with all of this I can’t tell you but I never felt more like repenting than when it hit me. That is the sin –putting anything or anyone first even if they do have fantastic plasma screens and a house in Washington DC.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:35 am
David,
Well written and thought out! My thought reading the points were, “and the truth shall set you free”. David, you hit the target center with the points. Right to the heart of the matter.
In response to vroom, years ago I probably would have defended PF. To even question or debate BT or PF would have produced a reaction. How could a cause , church or pastor I’ve given my life to not be all I believe it is. When you begane to recognize the subtle difference between what is preached and what the scripture says, the ground can feel shaky.
A question…Does anyone know how “Shifty Shefter” (as we fondly called him) became an elder? He was outspoken concerning not giving to the Rocky Butte building fund. Did not tithe. Criticised leadership at BT. My curiosity is peaked.
Laura
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:58 am
My guess is that he traded some of the rights to the Eternity play for a spot in leadership….I completely made that up… I did hear however that when CBC did the church vote SPES didn’t have enough votes to get approved but they made him an elder anyway…same for T-Nash, btw.
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:26 am
“didn’t have enough votes…same for T-Nash”
Seems to be a pattern for T-Nash.
June 3rd, 2007 at 9:51 am
The vote isn’t actually a “vote into office”. They just want to gauge the feeling of the congregation about the people that they have ALREADY CHOSEN to put into those positions. They want to know what percentage of people support or oppose that person/couple being put into that particular leadership role.
June 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
David,
I am curious. What are the facts about the real estate purchases by “Damasch Investments LLC”. I find nothing on any transactions in Oregon, but I am probably looking in the wrong places.
June 3rd, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Re: CBC 2nd Service this a.m. … in particular PF’s pre-offering presentation…
After going over a multitude of areas that deserved our offerings..(i.e…east campus, west campus, Mill Plain campus, various mission needs, and on and on…) If I’m not mistaken he encouraged the congregation to pray in the following manner…”Call in…” that job that you need… “Call in…” that unseen money source that you might not know about..”Call in..” etc..etc..etc..
I felt like I was more in a casino atmosphere than a church service…I just hope and pray someone close to him has the sense to share with him how unGodly that came across…I can’t imagine how grieved the Lord must feel…I know it left me feeling terribly grieved and empty inside..
June 4th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Looks like it’s time for you to find a different church, imho.
June 4th, 2007 at 6:36 am
Hi ladies and gents. I just caught a link to this blog from MMI and found your blog very interesting. I have a question, however. Have any of you confronted the leadership about the issues you address on this post?
I guess I’m uncomfortable with people accusing leaders anonymously. I am certainly not suggesting that you have no need to be upset but I just wanted to know if anyone has taken some principles outlined in Scripture to confront leadership breakdowns?
Peace and thanks so much for your time. God bless!
missiongirl
June 4th, 2007 at 8:13 am
vroom,
Excuse me, your Christian response to David was, “Ken Ross and Larry Taylor were as boring as you were when you taught at PBC.”
For the record, I know that I was boring a lot of the time. But Ken Ross could keep a coma unit awake. You must have been pretty sleepy. Sweet attitude.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:28 am
Sounds like there is an lot of jealousy and sour grapes from those who are not as blessed as CBC and Pastor Frank. As for the menber Fees we are delighted to contribute to such a wonderful organization as MFI. I would serve us all well if you would go findsomething worthy of criticism such as gay rights movement or the ACLU
One Man’s opinion
Havis Gabbbard
June 4th, 2007 at 9:45 am
That same wonderful organization punished local churches in Grey’s Harbor, Washington by withdrawing help from local foodbanks when a church fired their MFI pastor for unethical behavior.
And by all means, let’s continue to fight the gays and people who defend our civil rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution, because hate and oppression are such Godly values. We don’t have to show people love if they’re going to hell, right?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:44 am
I doubt that you or those associated with you have much understanding of family values. If you do not understand human anatomy how can you understand geder? When did mentioning gay rights become a sexual innuendo. If this is the case why not contact the news media they mention gay rights several times per day. As far as hating gays goes you are completly in the dark. Because I do not areee with the lifestyle how is that related to hating gays. Frankly I could care less what gays do as long as it is in private. But that goes for hetrosexuals also. Keep the gender issues in the bedroom and refrain from parading them up and down the street and we will all be better off. I am a Christian and proud of the fact that I am. Hate is not a part of my nature nor lifestyle but I do have BIBLE BASED VALUES. I AM WILLING TO ALLOW GOD TO MAKE THE FINAL JUDGEMENTS AS TO WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG. DO NOT BE DECEIVED GOD’S JUDGEMENTS WILL COME FROM THE BIBLE AND I BELIEVE HE HAS ALREADY MADE THOSE JUDGEMENT
June 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Larry,
I went to PBC and I have to say that I loved the classes you taught. Not many professors could make philosophy interesting at 7:30 in the morning but you somehow managed to pull it off. Vroom is clearly off his nut about a mile and a half. I bet he actually enjoyed taking Local Church. I’m sitting here trying to think of one person I knew who enjoyed that class and I’m coming up with nothing. And it’s true about Ken. He could indeed have kept a coma unit awake.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:59 am
quote/ , but try asking him for a meeting someday and see what happens. /quote
Actually, my first time at CBC was Aug 2006 and Pastor Frank was out of town, but I got a meeting with Marc Estes. Actually, we approached him once, he said he’d scheduleit (or get it scheduled w/e) and then he got back to us right away. Quite impressive, actually.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:25 am
How is telling people to criticize something more worthwhile like the gay rights movement or the ACLU not spewing hate? Oh, right, because it’s acceptable to modern Christianity to hate and condemn those things. Paul said that homosexuals won’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, so it’s totally fine for us to go and criticize them for being gay and for trying to defend their civil liberties granted to them by the American Constitution from hate spewing Christians. This attitude we’ve adopted in the Church that we’re right and everyone else is wrong is the most disgusting thing I’ve ever seen.
How is it right for Christians to oppose and hate homosexuals but not right for Christians to oppose a church that is overflowing with false doctrine that is spewed from the pulpit every week? Can anyone else say hypocrisy? If anything, that is backwards. Compare it to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:
Interesting. Maybe instead of judging and condemning everyone outside of the Church, we should be focusing our efforts more on those inside of the Church and let God handle those who are outside.
June 4th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I’m thinking he/she’s just a troll. That or I just don’t get how we got from Pastor Frank, to gay rights. Best ignored? To Larry, I never went to PBC but I enjoyed hearing you speak on other occasions.
June 4th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
I am amazed that you are attempting to explain the merits of tithing when you are misinformed, uneducated and scripturally unlearnd enough to think that tithing has now or ever has had its source and roots in the mosiac law. When and if you ever scripturally prepare yourself enough to learn the real source and roots of tithing I would like to have an informed and intelligent conversation with you. But since you are so convinced that the mosiac law is the source and root of tithing you will probably go on ranting and raving in your deception trying to convince us that tithing is unscriptural and wrong.
Be careful of the self deception and blindness that you are now encountering because of your hatred for Pastor Frank and CBC. You talk love but you manifest hate. Because of my disagreement with certain lifestyles you accuse me of being mean spirited and hateful. It is you that is mean spirited and hateful when you rip and tear CBC over a few isolated issues. For Years this great church has been on the cuting edge of ministering to the needs of the lost, the dying and the hurting. Give Pastor Frank and CBC a break and find a purpose in life will promote something positive and good. Why don’t you spue you putrid hate and disgust out on other more worthy, noble and urgent causes. Causes such as the ruination of countless 1000’s of young lives due to sexual abuse in the Catholoc Church. If you want to rant and rave about Pastor Frank’s salary think of the hundreds of milions of dollars of God’s money paid out by the Catholic Church to compensate sexual abuse victims who have been abused by Catholic priest. Talk about hirelings there are your hirelings. I don’t think you have the guts to stand up for those innocrent vitims. You are silent on these issue because it is to much for your small and biased mind to give up you hateful vendetta agains Pastor Frank and CBC. I will say again if you want a real issue tackle the nation wide sexual abuse of thousands of young men and women who have been abused and continue to be abused in some of the worlds largest religious organizations. Therin lise the real challenge for you but your small narrow vengeful mind can only focus on pastor Frank and CBC. Give it up and get a life.
June 4th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
In Answer to your statement “Havis is an idiot”. Your only defense against what you are doing is to atack others including me. how pitifully deceived you are. Is everyone who sees through your vicious selfish and men spirited facade an idiot. Thank you for you small minded biased, hateful, mean, and vicious statement about me. You have just confirmed what others already know about you. Your true colors are now waving ind the winds of self deception like old glory. P .S. From a small Idiot (me) another large ego inflated idiot (you) have a nice forever and may Jesus bless you.
Lowest Regards,
Havis
June 4th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Sigh … when Jesus said: “you tithe from your mint, dill and cummin, but neglect the more important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness”, Jesus was saying that tithing IS INDEED a matter of the law, just not as important a matter of the law as justice mercy and faithfulness.
So, Beavis, since Jesus attributed the tithe to the law, who are you to claim otherwise? Or are you saying that Jesus is scripturally unlearned?
And please don’t bore us with the Abraham / Melchizedek portion which was from the spoils of war … if you really looked at that closely, you’d see that Abraham gave not 10%, but 100% - 10% to Melchizedek, and 90% to the king of Sodom. Abraham’s take? Zippo.
Talk about beautiful foreshadow of Christ - giving all!
Oh, and consider this, when Abraham paid the tithe to Melchizedek, we were still in the lions of Abraham … so, in effect, Abraham paid the tithe for us (Hebrews 7:6-9). Wanna bend your noodle some more? Jesus is our high priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:6-10) and we are IN Christ (Romans 6:11, Romans 8:1, Romans 12:5, et al), so the tithe was effectively paid to us (IN Christ) and by us (IN Abraham). I wouldn’t expect you to get that however, because, well, it’s scriptural.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Again as always Concerning Tithing you have missed the point. Have a nice day
June 4th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Can Havis be blocked? He is annoying and has only just found us.. He/SHE/IT REALLY has nothing to say…
June 4th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
He could be blocked but we are not going to do that. Let him have his say.
Havis, We’ve had this same discussion with a number of Pro-Tithers and it always ends up the same way, they are unable to Biblically back up their beliefs.
Recently we went through this with Cowboy who when confronted ran and hid only to return later as Austin hoping we would forget the challenge…we didn’t.
I offer the same challenge to you now:
Well Havis…do you? Do You?
June 4th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Beavis the Brave has a better ring to it, JP …
June 4th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
I didn’t want to over do the insults…but I did get a good laugh out of the name change.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
So are we at stage 2 yet? Or is this stage 4?
June 4th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
I think you should make a post about an open challenge to anyone who wants to defend the practice of tithing. Guys like Havis are so ready to tell us we’re wrong, but not ONE has stepped up to explain it to us once and for all.
It’s a typical tactic of MFI churches: to claim superiority without explaining why they are right and you are wrong - you’re just wrong. Self-righteous indignation doesn’t intimidate us, so good luck with that.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:58 pm
No doubt. I’m sure Havis will run away like the rest of them. Best of luck to him though.
By the way, Havis, if you want to save yourself some time why not try reading everything we’ve written on the subject of tithe…might just convince you otherwise. Oh and to clarify, since you are new, we take the word Tithe here at it’s literal meaning of 10%, we fully support Cheerful Giving as the Lord leads.
I look forward to hearing from you:
(you can send your mail to tithingisgood@citybusinesschurch.org…uh and that is serious…I mean the address was set up to be funny, but the mail will reach us)
June 4th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
The reason you wish to block me is because you cannot support you petty, vicious, and narrow minded argument against Pastor Frank and CBC, MFi Dick Iverson and others. You do not want to hear my comments because I can see through your lying hyprocacy and I am not buy into your biased and vicious statements. You have placed yourself in the presence of modern day disgruntled pharisees like yourself. You and yours would crucify Jesus just as you are attempting to crucify Pastor Frank, CBC, MFI, Dick Iverson and others. The reason Pastor Frank and CBC, MFI, Dick Iverson and others are not defending themselves against you is because of the following scripture.
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
If Pastor Frank, CBC, MFI and Dick Iverson were to answer your biased criticisms they would be of the same base character as you and your pharisees bloggers. Who in their right mind would want be like you in spirit. I Know these men and ,sir, you are not in the same league as them. They are of far more noble character than you. They will not lower themselves to your level of mud slinging because they do not live in the same muck and the mire that you have chosen to live in. They refuse to answer your narrow minded and hateful criricisms because their character is far superior to yours and the pharisees that you blog with. Block me if you must. GO AHEAD AND FURTHER AFFIRM TO SENSIBLE READERS OF YOU BLOG THAT YOU ARE A NARROW MINDED GROUP OF MODERN DAY PHARISEES WHO CANNOT TAKE THE HEAT OF THOSE WHO OPPOSE YOUR POSITION. Again this is further proof that you cannot defend the charges you have made. If you can’t stand my heat get out of the kitchen. Anna made the statement I cannot go to Pastor Frank. She Balatenly violated the scripture which says if you see a brother overtaken in a fault go to him alone. She took her offence to others and you and you your fellow malcontents pick up her offence and make a public display out of it irregardless of what the scripture says. Now you want want credibility for your argument. You not only have violated the scripture have taken this supposed offence to the internet and made a public display out of the things that God said were to handle guitely and discretly.
I received you message concerning the way you would handle a dissertation on tithing from me. Here is the statement you made. Havis we will give you center stage…and then we will likely mock you. How pathetic and base your character go ahead and mock me . After all your kind mocked Jesus Christ . The more you say, the more you respond with such impassionate and gibberish statements, the more convinced I am that you and your bloggers are tools in the hand of Satan. The thief has come to kill, to steal and to destroy and so have you. Go ahead and block me if you wish and show just how small minded and pathetically little you are. You may block me but the vioces of reason, forgivenes and compassion will continue to resonate through our churches. My home church is a blessed member of MFI and we are grateful for the opportunity to fellowship with the wonderful ministers of MFI. You would do well to come aboard and join us for we will not come down from the wall we are building to engage you in your silly and petty criticisms.
One Mans Opinion
Havis
June 4th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
“You would do well to come aboard and join us for we will not come down from the wall we are building to engage you in your silly and petty criticisms.”
Newsflash, you were supposed to be building a hedge.
Shootin’ at the walls of heartache. Bang! Bang! I am the warrior.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Havis, in the time it took you to rant like that, you could have explained your position on tithing and written a detailed explanation as to how you would back that up with Scripture.
And why are you building a wall? Shouldn’t we be tearing down the walls that separate us as Christian brothers?
RP, you can add “tools in the hands of Satan”, “hypocrites”, and “Pharisees” to the list of names people have called you. You’ve got quite a score going!
June 4th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Havis please calm down. Didn’t you notice RP said you would not be blocked?…You appear to be able to rant with the best of them…If PF and company chose “not to answer fools…” why are you spending so much time with us??? I wonder what’s really bothering you so much?
Hmmmmm?
June 4th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Wow, that really was one of the better rants we have had on this blog. I think I may just post that.
Now Havis, what was my response to the request to block you?
You want me to block you to prove your point, but I'm not interested in that. I want you to be able to "have your say"…so much so in fact that I am willing to post your defense of tithe on the front of our blog. Now if the fact that I was honest about how we would respond bothered you, well…toughen up a bit.
You really wasted so much energy ripping an entire group of bloggers when it only should have been direct at one. Don't worry, you can get through this. Of course once you do, you might find that we are kind caring people who really love God and are just tired of the Pharisee's ruining God's church…which we've taken the time to document.
So, what say you, Havis? Up for the challenge? I'd like to expand that challenge to include discussing anything you want, not just the tithe, you pick the subject. Maybe you would prefer to write "The Top 10 Reason this blog is Un-Biblical". Send it over and I'll gladly post it. Just make sure it is semi-interesting and Bible based…you do own a Bible don't you? In fact, should anyone wish to join the blogging ranks, send in your thoughts. And Havis… you do realize that the answer to your question:
based on your statement:
is You. You Havis. You are like us in spirit…welcome to the blog.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Former inner circle member why don’t you identify yourself . Secrets are kept from enemies not friends. Its ok for you and yours to call names such as idiot etc but when someone applies biblical terms to you and yours they are accused of ranting and raving. You have not answered my question as to why Anna is touted as a source of info when she clearly violated biblical principleds of how to handle offence and you posted her comments seeking to give them them credibility and validation. I am no less convinced that there are character issues involved here. I hope former inter circle member is willing to get his/her life right with God cconcerning how the supposed offence has been handled rather than diverting to the issue of tithing.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Why am I building a wall? That is a question you should be answering Mr. Former Inner circle member. Sure we as Christians should be tearing down walls that is why I brought the wrecking ball. It is to help you to tear dow the wall you have built and continue to build up against Pastor framk, CBC, MFI, Dick Icerson and others. Why don’t you shift gears and move from the demilition crew to he construction crew. What do you hope to accomplich by offering a platform for disgruntled people to rip and tear at men and organizatons that are trying to advance the kingdom of God. Get over you hurts and disappointments and go preach the good news of the Kingdom if there is any good news still resident in you. I think you are hob nobbing with the wrong crowd. Do an about face and get a new lease on life you need it.
June 4th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Wow. That was a really, really impressive rant. Read what you just wrote, Havis. Yet you called us hateful and judgmental? Maybe we are. In fact I’m sure that most of us have been at some point. I’ll be the first one to admit that I have. I was pissed when I realized the blanket being pulled over my head by these men, to be perfectly honest. But wow. I’ve never in my wildest dreams conceived a post like that. It just begs one question.. What about the tithe?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Yes Havis, we can’t let you off that easy…
what about the tithe?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Havis sure flew fast past stage number two
And is teetering on the door of step four
Right now he’s alive, but once he’s past five
I don’t think we’ll see Havis no more.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
FICM, looks like they were actually directed at you…enjoy. Also, Havis seems to think this is your blog…just to make sure you know…we haven’t raised our price in the last 3 years. Both Catalyst and I would be willing to turn it over to you for a case of beer each. Just let me know.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Because I am strongly voicing my opinion does mot mean that I am remotely like you in spirit Mr. Former Inter Circle member. I am no more like you than Jesus was like the thieves and robbers that he drove out of the temple. You would like to try and make me like you. No thanks I have alrady been discipled. If I were offended at you or at CBC I would not be airing my gripes and posted them on a blog. I would have the decency to go to an offended or an offending brother in private and resolve the issue. I would not wash my so called dirty laundry in public and before sinners. I have voiced my strongest objections as to how this is being handled because it is a violation of scripture. If you are called of God he has committed to you the ministry of reconciliation not a ministry of condemnation. I am not condemning you I am taking issue wiyh you over the way that you are handeling offence. if we violate scripture we are comdemned already. Both you and I know that this not the way to resolve issues and to handle offense. This is not the Spirit of Jesus but rather this is the voice of unresolved offence and conflict. I sincerely pray that God will forgive all of you for the way this is being handled. I have no offence against your group I am simply coming to the defense of those whom I dearly love. This thing that you are doing is undeniably wrong and places you in violation of the scripture. I would love to give you my reason for this being the worst blog on the internet or my reasons for believing and teaching tithing but that might offer som credibility to what you are attempting to do. This I will not do. My coments and statements concerning what is being aired on this blog will always be negative because there is nothing good that can be said of the things that are aired here. This is a very negative and destructive blog and it is an enemy of the ministry of reconciliation. This blog a fosters and promotes the ministry of condemnation and it is shameful to all who believe and practice the ministry of reconciliation. Mr former inter circle member No I am not like you and those who areee with you. If I were you I would be seeking to be reconciled and to resolve the issues that lead to this unchristlike situation. I sincerly hope you find the place where true Spirit of Christ can flow out from you again
June 4th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Havis, I attempted to meet with Frank and he said he did not want to. He also says that he and I are reconciled:
What do you think I should do with that? I tried going to him, but was denied and at the same time he said he had no offense toward me and that we were reconciled…sounds to me like he doesn't think this blog is such a big deal. If he did, I'm sure he would do the Biblical thing and meet with me…right. So, help me out here. If PF isn't bothered, why are you so worked up?
June 4th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Never fear Havis is not going away someone has to be bold enough to offer to offer a voive of reason to counterbalance your madnes.
June 4th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
I am not worked up I’m just a voice of reason in the madness. it is you that is attacking others remain silent How about a Jesus Prayer. Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Then concenn yourself with the things God has for you. Believe me it works I have been there.
June 4th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
John Paul,
I have concluded that there are very few of us willing to stick our necks out and reveal unashamedly who we are. I have tried desperately to stay out of the fray and the nonsense, and you know that there is a lot of that on this blog. But, I have to admit that this “Havis” fellow/person is full of anger about this blog. Is this his real name? I don’t recall anybody by that name; but of course I didn’t know everybody in the church. I am still very fond of many, many people at CBC and PBC, and don’t hold a grudge; but I have to confess that I am so happy being involved with inner-city teenagers, young and old veterans at the Veterans Administration, and ordinary Methodists these days. I feel like I am surrounded by simple people, who either love God or don’t really understand religion at all, and who are “normal.” By that, I mean they don’t feel that every time they plug the coffee in they have to find a Scripture that supports it, and they are not bent on defending the church of God, because they are more interested in the God of the church. Ultimately, I think we either love God more, or the church more; it is a matter of devotion to what we believe in our heart of hearts is the most important of all.
I enjoy some of your respondents more than others, but regardless of how and why you started this blog site, I believe it has become a forum for genuine feelings. That can’t be all bad. Thank you.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:09 am
“Havis” fellow/person is full of anger about this blog. My name is Havis and you have litle if any spiritual discernment about my feelings. If you did you would underststand the cold hard facts as to how I really feel. This Blog is disgusting undermines the ministry of rerconciliation. Bloggers are engaging in the ministry of condemnation. Have any of you bloggers ever heard of the ministry of reconciliation. I am beginning to think that the ministry of reconciliation is foreigh to your thinking. Place the blame where it belongs statement are being made that show unforgiveness. Larry taylor makes this statement “I am still very fond of many, many people at CBC and PBC, and don’t hold a grudge but I am now among people who are “normal.” What is the undercurrant for this tatement. Larry you must feel in your heart that people at CBC and PBC are abnormal. Your statement By that, I mean they don’t feel that every time they plug the coffee in they have to find a Scripture that supports it. It would do us all well if each of us had more scriptural support for what we do and say. Doesn’t that statement insinuate that people at CBC and PBC are abnormal. i believe that statements like this are sure fire indications of unforgiveness. Statements such as I don’t hold a grudge but I am now among people who are “normal.” are not statements of loving forgiveness. Jesus said from the abundance of your heart your mouth speeks. Unforgiveness is a sin and it separates us from God. I sincerly pray that this is not the case with many who use this blog but I suspect otherwise.
June 5th, 2007 at 5:45 am
Havis,
My pastor’s wife got offended with me and refused to speak with me for 6 months. I tried going to her many times, but was told by her husband not to or she would completely cut me off from her life.
3 months into things we had an appointment for reconciliation. She decided to go shopping with her daughter instead of showing up. Her husband and I still met, but he and I had no problems.
FINALLY, after 6 months she agreed to meet and “forgave” me.
(All I was guilty of by the way was expecting her to keep her word.) It was not real forgiveness. The relationship is still not restored.
A few months ago I wrote a very heartfelt apologetic letter. I have not heard a word. These are people that have a worldwide ministry and frequent CBC.
Please don’t assume that folks here have not tried the reconciliation route. Most of us have and have been shut down. It’s hard to reconcile when leaders refuse to recognize that they have sinned too.
KM
June 5th, 2007 at 6:40 am
OK…wow, where do I begin?
Havis has directed a lot of anger my way, and I may take a moment to address some of his points, but I can’t help but wonder if he’s just mixing us up. My feelings aren’t hurt because I realize he’s very sincere about protecting those whom he loves in Christ.
Havis and others have questioned me about who I am and what axe I have to grind. So I want to make it clear for everyone why I’ve stayed anonymous and independent of the authors of this blog so far.
1) I didn’t want this blog to be about me vs. CBC. If I had true offenses towards the leadership there, it would be my Christian duty to forgive them and try to reconcile. But I don’t have any personal offenses, I simply object to the teachings of that leadership, the most prominent is the teaching of tithing and faith prosperity which I believe is in error. If I identify myself on this blog, those involved can simply write me off as “bitter” about something and stop listening.
2) I have friends and family still in MFI circles and it would make it “awkward” for them if I were to publicly condemn the teachings of those that they look to for leadership. I still love these people and I don’t want this to become about me vs. them. Most MFI’ers have been duped by these false teachings and are sincerely loyal to the leaders there (I was just like them for years) and it is not my place to rip them out of the place God has them. Each person has to have their own journey to the truth of God’s Word.
3) Running a blog like this is a messy business. I have enough responsibility in real life! Besides, I’d hate to pull an Esau and trade away my peace of mind for a couple of cases of beer! (And I love my beer!) The Mortons do a much better job at the humor thing and so I contribute when I can. For a long time, I’ve considered starting my own web site or blog to write about these things, but the motivation for me has to come from having something worthwhile to say that isn’t already being said here.
4) The final thing is that I wanted my objections to tithing to be based on what I read in the Bible. I didn’t want people to think it was just my opinion, and for anyone who has been reading here awhile, you know I’m not the only one who has come to these conclusions about tithing. It has nothing to do with who I am or my credentials, but what the Bible says. I chose the name Former Inner Circle Member because I was crazy deep into their system for over a decade and I did it all. The only way I could have been more involved was to actually work for them full-time. But it’s not important when it comes to exposing the lies about the tithe.
Well, those are my reasons. If you think they’re lame excuses, be sure to point out why and maybe you can convince me to trade my anonymity for a beer sometime.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:48 am
Havis sounds angry.
Me thinks he was a bottle fed baby.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:00 am
PS. Anyone who stays up until 12:09 am and has this many spelling errors, just might possibly be a little tipsy.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:00 am
Havis,
You talk about the ministry of reconciliation. But the only Biblical reference to that I know of is in 2 Cor. 5, where Paul talks about reconciling sinners to God through the truth of the Gospel. I think I have heard Dick Iverson teach on this, but I’m not sure.
What I have seen for myself is the works of men like Dick Iverson and Wendell Smith who claim to have this ministry.
Let’s look at their publishing pages at: http://www.citychristianpublishing.com/authors.htm
These same pastors of reconciliation defended a pastor who was removed from his church for unethical behavior after the church board followed the Biblical format for resolving offenses and confronting a brother in sin. Pastor Wendell “Reconciliation” Smith then went so far as to threaten legal action against the members of said church. He then removed aid from local food banks who were affiliated with this church. I suspect that this church no longer has an affiliation with MFI.
Does this sound like the works of reconciliation and generosity to you?
Please feel free to give me an example of how these men have pursued reconciliation in the church. I’d love to hear it.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:04 am
Hey Havis,
I find your comments disturbing. You have become what you dislike - a name calling blogger who rips on Christians who are doing what they think is right. Welcome to the club.
Please don’t give us your opinions, give us scripture. Your words are NOT sharp like a two-edged sword, they are not even a flashlight shining light on darkness. Your words are defensive of a system we know all too well. A system that is broken and unscriptural. What I don’t think you understand, is that you are like so many others who tell us we are wrong but are unwilling to show the scriptures of why we are wrong in our beliefs (not confusing the beliefs with the methods). In my personal experience, you are just like the pastor of the church I left (MFI of course). You avoid the real issues.
Please, don’t insult our intelligence since there are many readers here who don’t post and you leave a bitter taste in our mouth even though we don’t agree with vitriolic nature of a lot of the comments from the bloggers here. You come here and confirm the reasons we left MFI churches and why many are still leaving.
So please, answer why tithing is scriptural from the Bible…don’t answer by pointing to these bloggers and say tithing is OK because they are uneducated. We aren’t stupid; I read Wendell’s “prosperity with a purpose” and found the reasons for tithing to be WRONG. Maybe you have some insight on the issue.
I hope you stop defending and offending men (that’s not what it should be about) and defend your stance on a subject. There are many interested to hear you out, if you ignore the more “spirited” comments.
Regards,
Craig
June 5th, 2007 at 7:49 am
Reformed Pope said
Former Inner Circle member said:
and
Craig said:
I hear crickets chirping…Havis’ silence in regard to ACTUALLY answering (using the Bible to back up his points) is deafening.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:15 am
Havis Said: “Its ok for you and yours to call names such as idiot etc but when someone applies biblical terms to you and yours they are accused of ranting and raving.”
Who wants to go back and count how many names and incredibly harsh and negative adjectives Havis used when addressing RP and FICM? Every other sentence was infused with them. On top of which, he apparently thinks Biblical “terms” are the same thing as actual scripture.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:27 am
I do not understand this guy. Wow. Quoting Scripture to justify everything you do isn’t finding Scriptural support for your actions, it’s called TWISTING SCRIPTURE. If you think that you have a Scripture that applies to turning on the coffee maker, well then you, my friend, have twisted Scripture because there is no Scripture that directly applies to a coffee maker in the Bible. You see, dearest Havis, things being Scripturally supported means that Scripture PROPERLY APPLIED supports that action, not that you can apply some random Scripture to what you’re doing to justify it.
A classic example of this would be the verse where Jesus says, “Give, and it will be given back to you, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over…” to apply to a financial situation. If one were truly scholarly and knew that context is the most important thing when interpreting any kind of literature, be it sacred or profane, this scholarly gentleman would look into the verses surrounding it. He would see these verses talking about forgiveness and realize that Jesus was saying that if you give forgiveness, it will be given back to you. And thus, a sound doctrine can be formed that if you forgive, you shall be forgiven.
For someone who claims 46 years in the ministry, you sure do have a lot of anger and use a lot of childish name calling techniques, Havis. Not to mention to glaring spelling and grammatical issues that plague your comments.
June 5th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Havis,
Your point about my choice of words about people being normal: “Doesn’t that statement insinuate that people at CBC and PBC are abnormal…” is well taken. I respectfully retract my words; I did not mean to imply the meaning that you have drawn, and I could have chosen a better way of stating what I truly meant. Is that definitive enough for you? Perhaps my friend Jan Weinstein is right about the word, “normal,” when he says, “that it is simply a setting on a wash machine.” So, for the record, please accept my apology.
I do think people are too wrapped up in a form of hyper-spirituality, which includes feeling the need to quote scripture (often out of context) and bring God into every topic. You will perhaps consider me an infidel, or at least too liberal or secular. I will accept either label.
What I do object to is the manner in which you come across as judge and jury against so many people on this blog. As much as you object to people judging your heart, surely you don’t suppose that you understand theirs. You may think that you are simply defending the people you care about, and are trying to protect. Whether or not you are actually praying for people on this blog, your words are unequivocally harsh and incriminating. If I were you, I would not second-guess another man who said that he held no grudge against anyone; some day you may find that he meant exactly what he said.
June 5th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Dearest Mr. former inner circle member I am amazed at your lack of insight. You are at it again making false assumption as to why my imput has several errors. Could it be a lack of key borad skills? Could I have a problen with my vision after all I am in my late sixties. For your personal info I graduated college with a A in creative writing. Enough said. Am I to understand that those of us who quote scripture to you, which conficts with your pre-concieved ideass, are twisting the scriptures to fit our own belief schemas. I would need ro rise early and too stay up late in order to develop your level of expertise in slanting and twisting the scriptures. Virtually every church in the U.S. and around the world use the same ideas and scriptures for teaching tithing and has the same problems that you have pointed out concerning CBC and PBC. Both you and I know this is true. My question, Why the sense of urgency in makeing this an burning issue with pastor Frank and CBC? When you make this an issue specifically with pastor Frank and CBC and you exclude references to others who are doing the same thing I question your motive. I will now use your own words. You see, dearest mr. former inner circle member, things being Scripturally supported means that Scripture PROPERLY APPLIED supports that action, not that you can apply some random Scripture to what you’re doing to justify it. You would do very well to apply those thing you demand of me to yourself. On a more serious note. If you were to take the issues that you have with pastor Frank, CBC, PBC, MFI, etc. and universally apply them to others you would al least seem fair in your criticisms. Don’t you think that this would make your agurments more valid and eliminate the possibility of being viewed as having a personal vendetta.
Poet Robert Frost: Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, And sorry I could not travel both. I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.
The Christian road less traveled is the road of forgiveness. Dearest Mr. former inner circle member and dearst Havis. if we both take the path of the road less traveled (the rosd of forgiveness) it will make all the difference for us. Dearest Mr. former inner circle member are you willing take the road lees travelled.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Larry Taylor Apology Accepted: I have no judgement for you and I hold no preconcieved ideas as to the state of your spiritual relationship with God. God is your master and my master and before him you and I will either stand or fall. I am outspoken and firm in my convictions (not mad) offended and hurt people need to choose other means of aring their gripes. Someone once sad if you are not apart of the problem or apart of the answer stay out of the situatio. Hundreds if not thousands of people have been involved unnecessarily in this situation and that is what makes it so very, very wrong.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Wow, this is an amazing post. There are so many directions that a response could take. It is sad that as a pro-tithing Christian, I have to have Havis on my “side.” Unfortunately, he makes us “pro-tither” look bad. Just so you know, Mr. Havis, you getting an “A” in Creative Writing means nothing. I got an “A” in Spanish and I can’t speak a lick of it now. I have a very simple answer to your grammatical problems-type your posts in Microsoft Word and then it will spell check and grammar check your document and then you can copy/paste it into the blog.
And for the record I also had Larry Taylor for a teacher and I thoroughly enjoyed his teaching. He was a fair and respectful teacher. In fact when I was doing my senior research project it was on an aspect of theology that he didn’t agree with and was (at that point) doing his doctrinal thesis on the other side of the issue and yet he looked at my research paper with unbiased opinion and gave me one of only two “A’s” in the class. Thank you Larry for being a teacher of class and integrity.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Wow,
Can’t believe that I actually find some of my old favorite people in this blog! Hi LT !
BTW: I am still in the system (CBC member and faithful attendee).
The reason why I read and join with this blog, because I want to be an open-minded christian, be real and honest, not to be ashamed or intimidated for being confronted that somehow our church and leaders are not perfect and they do mistake.
There are so many things that I disagree with CBC, with the leaders, with their ideas & teachings, with church politics, etc. Once, I went to a district pastor and discussed about these issues. And I expressed to her that I actually have been praying for the past 5 years if I should leave CBC, but I never received any confirmation in my heart that I should dismember myself from CBC. I understood that my dissatisfaction of the church will not be a valid reason to leave the church, I knew that if dissatisfaction was the main reason to leave a church, then I will always find dissatisfaction in other churches as well. To me sticking with CBC is not a matter of loyalty to an establishment or to its leaders, but it’s more like practicing of my personal conviction, and being an “individual” rather than a “group”. For instance, I think that I could be a democrat christian in the midst of republican group, and I could be a secular-educated, liberal-minded christian in the middle of conservative group.
I have to thank LT, Larry Asplund and Ken Ross They are inspirational people, thanks for your dedication at PBC and allowing students to think for themselves and giving so much room to grow instead of dictating them what to do and what to believe.
I also appreciate this blog, for helping us to be real, honest and courageous to face the fact that we are all human, and we are in need of His grace.
Indepedent thinker
June 5th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Dear Havis et.al.,
This forgiveness thing has been on my heart and mind for several days. I have asked the Holy One to search me, and open up the Scriptures to me regarding this. I am willing to have the scalpel of the Word in the hand of the Lord applied to my heart. I know I have far to go regarding understanding, for we all see through a glass darkly — we know only in part.
BUT, to paint everyone with the same broad brush “Oh, you just need to forgive” is incomplete at best. I can only forgive to the extent that I have been personally offended or injured. If I hold in my heart anger, revenge, a desire for judgment and sentencing — then I need to forgive. Anger, revenge and judgment are not mine to hold or to mete out. These belong to God alone, and personal forgiveness relinquishes my right to them. I am willing to do that, and with God’s grace I do/will do.
HOWEVER, if a Christian is in sin or error — and that sin or error leads to deception or destruction in the lives of others, my observation of that requires a response. If anger, revenge and judgment are my response, then I need to repent as above. But my forgiveness of the person does nothing to absolve them of their sin or error, does nothing to warn them of the response of the Lord, and does nothing to protect or warn those who are being deceived / destroyed.
That is why the prophets, John the Baptist and Jesus were perfectly correct to proclaim, “Woe to you ______________ (fill in the blank: shepherds, priests, Pharisees, etc.) This was not a matter of personal injury or broken relationship. They were warning of the response of God with the hope that repentence would stay His hand.
FURTHERMORE, if a Christian sins or is in error in a public way, ie, from the pulpit, then it removes the situation of personal injury or p