A Tithe Reply
Posted on June 9th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Tithe categorySo…to sum up everything I've heard from Havis regarding our need to tithe it would be this (Havis or anyone, correct me if I am misinterpreting things):
1. Abram (soon to be Abraham) gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek (Gen 14:18)
2. Then some time later God makes a Covenant with Abraham and his seed(Gen 17 & Gen 18:19)
3. Then we find out in that Jesus is like Melchizedek (Hebrews 7)
Therefore since Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and since Jesus is Like Melchizedek and since we are the Seed of Abraham we are required to Tithe.
Now, if you don't think about any of this it actually sounds really good. Plus when you throw in a little bit of guilt ("Most people who argue with the Tithe are Greedy") and then a bit of manipulation ("95% of all churches teach the Tithe this way") it can really be hard to stand up to.
The problem is, when you decide to look closer, there are so many gaps that have to be filled in to make this all work. For instance:
Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek
- 1) Abram…he wasn't even named Abraham yet
- 2) Gave a tenth…No where does it say it was commanded
- 3) Of the spoils of war…not of his crops or his possessions, but of spoils
- 4) Abram gave the other 90% to Sodom (who has his city burned for being so sinful a short time later)
Then God makes a Covenant with Abram and his seed
- 1) This Covenant did not happen directly after Abram gave to Melchi.
- 2) This Covenant was all about Circumcision
- 3) No where does it mention Tithing during the Covenant
- 4) In between the time of Abram giving to Melchi. (Gen 14:18) and God making the covenant (Gen 17) we have Gen 15:9:
So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon."
So…it appears to me that it is quite a stretch to take Abram giving something Melchi and attach it to a covenant that has nothing to do with tithe 3 chapter later all the while ignoring all the instruction from the Lord in between. Furthermore this does nothing to discuss the fact that we have to take "giving to Melchi" and turn that into "giving to the church"…we have to take giving spoils of war and turn it into giving our income…all the while also ignoring all the other scriptures about the law of tithing in the Bible that the church doesn't want you to follow (Lev 27:31, Dut 14:28, Numbers 18:26-32, etc.)
Giving 10% is great. I fully support people giving 10% to the church, just so long as it is "not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."
I think we've beat this thread to death, but what the heck: Havis can you show me how to connect Melchi to the Covenant thus requiring us to tithe?
One last thing before I go, Havis you mentioned that "Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the everlasting covenant." What then do you say to 1 Corinthians 7:19?
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
Based solely on what you have said and this scripture I would have to come to the conclusion that Tithing is nothing and Not Tithing is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
I expect Havis to ignore me, that's usually what happens when you back someone into the corner.
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June 9th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Man, I am gone a day and look what happens. I aked honest questions to Havis, and his answers were not biblical. I agree, if someone wants to give 10%, go for it…nothing wrong with that.
The biggest problem is how these tithe grabbers say “we do not preach the law” but the most quoted scripture when asking for the tithe (at the City Church anyway) was Malachai 3 - you are cursed with a curse and open the windows of heaven. That scripture was directly tied to the law given to Moses. Tithe grabbers want to have it both ways, but they are on thin ice and very thin scripture.
Havis did his best, and I applaud him for his effort and balls for doing it here. He just does not have good biblical reasons for pulling the offering Abram gave to the covenant. Even if he did, the tithe the grabbers ask for is nothing like the offering Abram gave.
The last thing I will say on the subject is how they commonly say “how are the preachers supposed to live if we don’t tithe”. My answer is, if you preach the true Gospel, the people will take care of them. That’s what my pastor does - he preaches the true Gospel and repented from aksing for tithes. The only problem is he doesn’t live in a huge house, he drives a civic, he doesn’t have a vacation house on the beach in Hawaii - the list goes on. What I am saying is he preaches the gospel for Jesus, not filthy lucre and Jesus feeds him and clothes him and he is happy with his wages.
Preach how we can get rich by tithing and this sripture applies to you. For the record Havis didn’t say this, my former MFI church did.
Peace
June 10th, 2007 at 6:47 am
Hi Craig,
Who says preachers are supposed to be paid, in cash?
Consider the 12, then the 70 (some versions say 72) whom Christ sent out. With nothing but their clothes and sandals - they went without provision at all, met a stranger when they got to where they were going who gave them a place to sleep - were told to eat the food in front of them - then moved on to the next place as the Spirit led them … that is the essence of “go into all the world” … what preachers / ministers do today has nothing to do with the great commission - all they’re doing is basically hosting 1 meeting of the local believers per week - everything else they do could be boiled down to believer’s ministry or body ministry if you will … in fact, the one man pastor show has enabled congregations to remain babes in Christ by relegating all ‘religious service’ to one guy - yet there’s not a thing a pastor / preacher does that could not be done for free by the assembled body of Christ through the Holy Spirit. Well, there is 1 thing, and that is perform a state marriage (clergy credentials required).
I still trouble over the scripture “freely ye have received, freely give” … what are those guys doing selling the gospel? Aren’t Paul’s words (1 Cor 9) filled with admonishments to be like Paul, work a side job, not take money for the gospel so as not to hinder the gospel? And the words of 1 Cor. 9 echo the command of Christ to the 12/70 that they are NOT working for a wage as so commonly translated, but MEAT. They don’t own homes, but stay with whomever will give them a place to sleep.
I should think that it would be clear: IF a person wants to own house and home, cars, and other material things, then they need to get a job and earn an income for those things. BUT if the person wants to serve Christ ‘full time’, there is but one Biblical example, and that is of the 12/70/72 (apostles and disciples) who did NOT receive a salary at all.
One of the scriptures that has always piqued my interrest, is 1 Cor. 9:14 … so many translations say that the person who preaches the gospel is to make their living from the gospel … which of course we economy minded Americans think: LIVING = SALARY. But having looked at that verse in eveyr translation, and in the Greek (Annotated KJV with Strong’s Greek), the GREEK word that is translated into LIVING (a noun), is really a verb.
It’s a subtle twist on the scripture that totally alters it’s meaning.
Personally, given what Paul has said in the entire chapter, I believe the gist / spirit of 1 Cor. 9:14 is “don’t just talk the walk, walk the walk” or “practice what you preach”. For example, there is an element of community, sharing and selflessness in the gospel message. So, the one who “goes out into the world” preaching, would be teaching selflessness, sharing, community, good works as part of the ‘gospel message’ - and the one who goes out with NOTHING is demonstrating by their living example as well as their words, true gospel sharing. Then as others hear and put into practice the gospel message, they will share and supply the need (for food, drink and shelter) of the disciple/apostle.
Writing up a job description, creating an official position in an institutionalized church, setting salary and benefits, etc., is foreign to scripture. The way the church works these days, is an unscriptural adaptation by and of our culture.
Anyone who takes money for preaching the gospel is disobeying scripture (freely ye have received, freely give; and of course Paul, in 1 Cor. 9).
It is something I feel very strongly about, having been involved in various aspects of music ministry since I was 16 (now 51). The Father’s call on me has always been to do so freely. Even when we received love offerings, we gave them away to the area food banks. I can not, because of the Lord’s words ringing in my ears and resonating in my Spirit, take money for preaching the gospel / ministry.
Could it be that there is no power (signs and wonders following, etc.) in ministries today, because they take money for it? Simon the Sorcerer was rebuked for trying to buy the anointing, could that be God’s rebuke of ministers who are trying to sell the anointing?
Peace to you to, bro. These are indeed heavy things, but I gotta tell you, at least from my perspective, I can’t receive the preaching / teaching of a paid minister for the simple reason that he/she is disregarding Jesus command concerning charge nothing - give freely.
The Church would be MUCH BETTER OFF if it had never let mammon / money in the door, but rather, let grace and the gospel, be completely free.
June 10th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
That is a very poor reply in support of tithing indeed. One only has to look as far as Malachi 3, and Jesus lambasting the Pharisees (Mat 23:23, Luke 11:42) to see that tithing is well supported in Scripture. Jesus says, “These you ought to have done”… and yet you still raise questions?
I totally agree with Samaritan that the church is too obsessed with money, and that too many preachers and “workers of God” use their spiritual gifts and God-given authority for personal gain… it is undeniable that this is the ‘Achilles heal’ of the western church.
However, there needs to be a balance… the Levites in the OT were supported by the whole nation… the purpose of the tithe was to pay their living, and any other temple expenses. There is nothing in the NT to change this. Read 2 Cor 11:8 “I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you”. So Paul worked on the side, when he had to, but that was only for a season… you must take the whole of the NT as an example, not just one slice.
How about the Apostles that devoted themselves “continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word” (Acts 6)… no mention of a secular job there. In fact they drew up a “job description”, and appointed others in a more administrative role… which for a budding church by now well into the tens of thousands would clearly be a full-time role. Obviously the verses that talk about nobody lacking anything, also implies that those that were given the responsibility of teaching and pastoral work, were provided for. What about the priests and elders talked about all through the NT, surely when they were appointed over whole cities, they would not have had time for a job.
So I think, as much as there is corruption in the hearts and theologies of many in the church, and yes we should have the right heart when we serve, and not expecting an earthly return. But you cannot deny all the scriptures in the Bible on God’s provision, and our part to play in that. Read 1 Tim 5:17, clearly states that elders and those that labor in the word and doctrine are deserving of their wages.
As much as it is a nice thought that a pastor and those who do the work of God full-time should earn their own living, or otherwise should live off the generosity of those they minister too, but not having anything of their own… it is not the way the Bible teaches us, and to me is very disrespectful to those who are following that call from God on their life, and therefore disrespectful to that call and the One who gave them the call.
Yes we should freely give, because Christ has freely given to us. This is a general command to all believers, and above our tithes at that!! So before we point the finger at others who seem to be doing the work of the Lord and taking money in return for personal gain, we should look at ourselves, are we living a generous life? Giving money to the work of the Lord, giving freely of what we have, not counting it as our own, but freely distributing to those believers who have need?
Please don’t get me wrong, I do not aspire to be paid by the church, and I’ve seen plenty of abuse of ministry and money in the past… but lets not go to the other extreme where we limit people’s opportunity to sow into good soil (which is probably half the problem normally) and reap according to the generosity of their heart! Tithing was supported by the NT church and has been all through church history, and its funny how in the age we now live in of hyper-consumerism, that Tithing comes under the biggest assault. Sure lets stay away from those who misuse the gift of God on their life, or the position of authority which God has given them… the Bible talks about special punishments for them at the Judgement, however lets let God do the judging, and we do the obeying bit, which is to be generous, and support those who God has placed in rightful authority over us (which includes, but is not limited to, tithing). If God has placed you in a church, then you give your tithe as unto the Lord, and so-be-it that the Lord has decided to use that tithe to support the work of the Church.
This to me is the right, balanced view.
June 10th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Has someone hung an “Idiots Welcome” sign recently?
June 11th, 2007 at 10:23 am
I see that Havis is ignoring the Pope’s post here, but posting the same questions over again in others. The question of whether the NT says to give 10% or 100% is obviously not going to be resolved with him. So how about another question? This blog used to be about CBC and their practices.
So Havis: let’s pretend that your law of tithing is in full effect. What do you think about CBC’s practices in that area. I direct your attention to this post, and wait for you to duck the question:
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blog/2005/02/16/titheor-else/
June 11th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Mark,
I am confused by your post, you quote scriptures written to people bound by the law. In Malachi the preists were bound to tithe by the law, and that is why there was the cures (the curse of not following the law). In Matthew the Pharisees were still under the law. You use these to defend the tithe. Are we under the law of the tithe?
Regards,
Craig
June 11th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Are you serious?
Perhaps you should go and study the linkage between OT and NT before you start making any further comments. Grace is a higher law, so it supercedes the Mosaic law, however most Christian scholars agree on one thing, that certain aspects of the OT pass through the cross and find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ. So if Jesus Christ commended the Pharisees for tithing, and Paul supported it… I dont know what more you want to talk about?
You mentioned the curse… Do you realise that there has always been “a law”? God gave Adam and Eve a commandment… they broke it, thus the curse of sin. That curse still haunts us today, if grace abolished all law and meant there is no standard by which we must live, then I’m sorry, you have been lied to!
I’m sorry, this is basic stuff… I’m going to move on now. I hope I haven’t upset the ‘apple cart’ too much.
God Bless!
June 11th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Yes, Mark, Craig is serious and quite correct.
Have you ever noticed that Jesus words in Matthew 23:23 are in the past tense, as it would be from someone who knew that the law was about to be superceded by the covenant of grace?
It isn’t like Jesus did not know how to issue a command in the future tense, consider his words to the woman caught in adultery: “go, and sin no more”.
The other thing about Matthew 23:23, Jesus CLEARLY attributes the tithe to the law, by grouping ‘mint, dill and cummin’ to other elements of the law. Hebrews 7 also attributes the tithe to the law, and specifies that it is to be collected by Levite priests in accordance with the law.
So, with the Levite priesthood being abolished, the temple store house destroyed, the end of animal and grain/fruit sacrifices, the tithe ceased to apply. Further, the scriptures state clearly that the law is cancelled for them who are IN Christ.
You are welcome to tithe Mark, but IF you do, I pray it is because you are led by the Spirit to do so, AND, that you are joyful in doing it. If you are tithing because you believe it is the law, please spend some time studying Galatians, and whether you are the son of the bond woman, or free woman.
The sons are free.
Sam
June 11th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
I think you completely and totally missed the point of what he said, Mark. You should probably take a few deep breaths, read his post again, and then try to respond to it accordingly. However, your post contains a few points that I’d like to refute.
1. To say that Jesus commended the Pharisees for tithing is a severe twist of Jesus’ words. He was contrasting their meticulous tithing of even the smallest things all the while ignoring the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy and faith.
2. I’m sorry, but your statement that Paul supported the tithe cannot be accepted without some Scriptural evidence to back it up. The burden of proof lies on you for making the statement, not on us to refute your wild claims.
3. Craig never claimed that there has not always been “a law,” so your baseless attack and attempt to belittle him was superfluous and beside the point. However, I do find it interesting that you’re basically saying that we’re still under the Law because Adam and Eve were under “a law”.
Maybe instead of Craig reading up on OT and NT linkage you should do a little reading up on covenants. What you’re basically saying (albeit unintentionally, I’m sure) is that the New Covenant is not all-encompassing, so we’re under the New Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. If “the curse” of Malachi is still enforced upon us, then we must keep all of the Law.
If you were to read into the context of the infamous curse of Malachi 3, then you would understand what Craig was trying to say, that the Book of Malachi was written to Priests ministering under the Mosaic Law. If the curse still applies to us today, then we must still be under the Mosaic Law and therefore responsible to fulfill it all.
I realize you said you were done here, so I don’t expect a response to this. God bless.
June 11th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Hey Mark,
I re-read my post to see what I wrote to upset you, but I think you mis-undersand my point. I don’t think all the OT is void, but the law is…and specifically the tithe. Nice couple of swipes at me though I guess I touched a nerve
Are you on the church payroll?
Anyway, happy trails.
June 12th, 2007 at 11:01 am
Hey all -
I found this blog while doing some research on tithing. I recently have felt convicted about tithing, because I have been doing something…because everyone I know that is a Christian has said it is what you are supposed to do. My husband and I always tithe - and our church states that all members should tithe 10% of their gross income to the church, and to the local church only. Anything else is ‘offerings’ and should come after the tithe. I have heard this from every church I have ever attended. Why would I think anything different?
Well, my heart-felt conclusion is that the pressure on church members to tithe is a huge misunderstanding/manipulation of scripture. In fact, I feel that the call to Christians in the subject of spiritual giving and community in 2 Corinthians/Acts is radical - awesome. I feel liberated from tithing out of requirement, and I look forward to distributing my resources according to how God leads me. Unfortunately, this will not go over well with others, I suspect. This will not be the first time that I will be told how disobedient I am, because I read my Bible.
I understand Mark’s frustrations - the truth is always hard to swallow when you think you have always had it. I have come out of Mormonism and just last year painfully parted ways with a highly Charismatic church - both because what I read from the Bible does not match the doctrine from the mouths of the leaders. It is hard to accept truth amid so much peer pressure. But it is possible.
Thanks for the insight -
Kara
June 12th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Hi Kara,
Your story sounds very familiar to mine. I left a Charismatic church too, and when I questioned the tithe I was accused of being selfish, greedy and rebellious. Not much fun.
I agree with you about Mark, it is difficult to hear what you are taught is wrong. I had a really hard time when I started to discover my Charismatic church was not biblical in some of their teachings. It is an abrasive thing to go through. I guess this is why God gives grace to the humble.
June 13th, 2007 at 10:15 am
In my “devotions” today, I ran across this passage:
Which then reminded me of this one:
What can we otherwise conclude from this than that because we are the Children of God through Abraham we are exempt from the “Temple Tax”!
This brief passage also gives us a glimpse into the life of Jesus. According to Mosaic Law, Jesus was not required to tithe because he was a carpenter and not a farmer. Secondly, he lived so poorly that he had to perform miracles to raise cash. And finally, Jesus made it clear he and Peter were under NO OBLIGATION to pay the tax, but he did it willingly so as not to offend people.
If Jesus taught his disciples it wasn’t necessary to tithe, then why should we?
June 13th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Another one…
I’m also reminded of the story of the Prodigal Son.
If this is the portrayal of God the Father that Jesus gives to us, how dare anyone describe God as the ultimate tax collector?
Does this sound like Father God who demands tribute from us when we pray for our needs? Or is God the kind Father who give us all things we need regardless?
June 14th, 2007 at 4:31 am
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “What can we otherwise conclude from this than that because we are the Children of God through Abraham we are exempt from the “Temple Tax”!
This brief passage also gives us a glimpse into the life of Jesus. According to Mosaic Law, Jesus was not required to tithe because he was a carpenter and not a farmer. Secondly, he lived so poorly that he had to perform miracles to raise cash. And finally, Jesus made it clear he and Peter were under NO OBLIGATION to pay the tax, but he did it willingly so as not to offend people.
If Jesus taught his disciples it wasn’t necessary to tithe, then why should we?”)
All good points, FICM.
joebib
June 14th, 2007 at 7:17 am
It’s crazy. There are so many gaps in the tithe debate. Who knows even why it is actually still debated. People are scared to let go, especially pastors are scared to let go. Mainly because they can’t imagine living on a personal budget based on others freewill gift, and also because their humongous church mortgages need some stability in a systematic requirement of giving.
Anyways, besides that, in response to Mark’s comments above: As long as their is a God there is going to a law. Hello Mark! We are not saying that everything written from Genesis through Malachi should be ignored. It’s obvious you didn’t read the blog very well, because you don’t follow the tithe law how God required it to be followed.
June 16th, 2007 at 7:31 am
I would like to add to the list of Abraham/Melchisedek complications. After returning the remaining 90 percent of the spoils to the original owner (king of Salem) , Abraham said I will not keep to a shoe of that stuff. God through the prophet Amos chapters 2 and 8 jumps all over the shoe oath of Abraham saying that the poor are having silver taken from them.
Parallels of the manna to the fruit of the land. Both had a suppliment of ‘flesh’ to go with the main course of bread. Both had a tenth part to put in storage, (pot and storehouse). If you put money in storehouse then you must be willing to put money in the manna pot as well. The admonition to ‘forbear’ in the thirty pieces of silver prophecy, is that looking at the tithe doctrine?
The first place God mentions the tithe in the first person is when He speaks to Jacob in a dream, saying remember that vow. Well that vow is saying ‘tithe’. Their response to God saying vow/tithe is ‘lets go, our father only wants our money’. Just what is God saying here?
June 16th, 2007 at 11:51 am
OOPS!! Not ‘king of Salem’ but ‘king of Sodom’.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Ye who jump upon the “shoe oath”, jump instead upon “freely ye have received, freely give” (Matthew 10:8), and “So what is my reward? It is to spread the Good News free of charge. In that way I won’t use the rights that belong to those who spread the Good News” (1 Cor. 9:18), and “therefore the sons are free” (Matthew 17:26).
Seems like there’s an operative word in these verses, but I just can’t seem to lay hold of it … it’s on the tip of my tongue … somebody, help me out here …
;) Sam
June 17th, 2007 at 9:16 am
JUMP!! I think its jump!
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:39 am
I have a question. In the book of Acts, people of means were selling their possessions and laying the proceeds from the sales at the apostles feet. (Acts 2:45,4:34-35)
Why is it that Peter said in Acts 3:6, “I do not possess silver and gold”?
Why did’nt he drive around in an expensive chariot and live in luxury? Could he have had a different outlook than our leadership today?
July 2nd, 2007 at 4:35 am
Reminds me of the story, probably apocryphal, of the conversation between one of the Popes and an advisor, when they were discussing the above account in Acts 3:
Pope: “We have come a long way since those early days. With her billions of dollars of assets, Mother Church can no longer say, ‘Silver and gold have I none.’ ”
Advisor: “Yes, the situation certainly has changed…for neither can she any longer say, ‘In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, Rise up and walk.’ ”
joebib
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:57 am
False Apostles are very greedy, where there’s a false apostle, you’ll see a cunning greedy, prideful person… He so cunning, that he’ll have you convinced that he cannot lie. Yet, he’ll speak with a fork tongue, and manipulate others into being false prophets all for his gain. The Bible indicates they teach doctines of devils, scary, this is a good reason to understand the difference between a FALSE apostle and a TRUE apostle!
The false apostle’s tactic is FEAR (God didn’t give us a spirit of fear) and mystic manipulation. They drawn men unto themselves.
Every service they’ll slap you in the face with the OT Malachi verse. Making you think it means your weekly pay check when it doesn’t mean that at all. (Tithes had to be carried out using specific methods-NOT a weekly pay check). Tithes had to be a burnt offering, using specific intricate methods. God loved the pleasing aroma. Tithes were given ONCE a year, and something every THREE years:
Deu. 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns…
They’ll convince you they deserve double honor, which in the Bible has nothing to do with money. They preach a DIFFERENT Jesus, a Jesus that doesn’t love everybody and who didn’t pay the price in full for our sins. That you must tithe, or you’re cursed with a curse. They do not understand the difference between the OT and the NT promise. They do not want to understand it, because this would mean they are wrong for robbing people of their money.
This one of their favorite twisted scripture to get your money:
Acts 5:2With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet…
The false apostle will leave out the rest of the chapter, just to convince you he is entitled to what ever he asks from you.
The Fellowship of the Believers
42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods…
The false apostle will leave out the part about how they: they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
July 24th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Sounds very familiar, Karen! Unfortunately, I’ve heard and seen far too much of everything you described! Thank GOD He set me free from all of that, brought me out of the darkness and into His marvelous light!!! Sounds like you can say the same?!
July 25th, 2007 at 6:00 am
Yes, its a scary thing to fall into the clutches of a false apostle. The Bible is so TRUE about how they teach doctrines of demons. As you’re trying to get out from their bewitching powers the evil spirits will creep into your dreams. Good thing we have the truth right there in the Bible to set us FREE…we don’thave to let them make merchadise of our souls and slave to them….