I've decided to take a break…I think you get religion points if you call it a "fast" so lets do that…
I've decided to "fast" from this blog for a couple of weeks. I've taken a fair amount of criticism over the past couple of weeks (thank you MMI) and while none of it has convicted me to STOP blogging, it has given me a few things to think about…I mean pray about. The first question would be "Is the blog an Idol to me" and the second is "What responsibility do I have in regard to the gossip that happens here?"
I have been praying about this rather heavily for the last few weeks and don't feel God has said anything to me in regard to it. While I think this blog has done some wonderful things over the past 2-3 years I want to be sure that I haven't gotten so involved that I can't see the truth of what is happening.
I felt the best way to do this was to take a short break, read up what on what the Bible has to say about Blogging (should be a good post when I get back), and see if I hear God give me any direction.
Ok, As I am writing this, I just pulled up the comments on our site and saw that Phil had this to say:
I hope you keep this blog going!
That's funny…many people would take that as a sign from God…but I see it for what it is…a sign from Phil. Thanks Phil, I'll let you know what I come up with in 2 weeks.
But before I go, I did want to reiterate a solid comment that was brought up earlier by FICM in regard to CBC/MFI's emphatic teaching on Tithe:
Is there any definitive works or books on the subject available from CBC or MFI related churches? Is there some book or document that spells out what they believe on the topic? You'd think that something so fundamental to the way they run things would be their biggest seller at their bookstore. If they are truly convinced of what they believe, shouldn't it be easily available to the public? But I only find hints of it in their book titles. Does anyone know which of their books is the best one on the subject? I'd gladly buy it just to see how they justify it. JP, I know you've had many conversations and emails with the leaders at CBC – did they ever give you any materials to reference?
It seems strange to me that for someone who went there for over a decade I couldn't point someone to book or leaflet on the tithe.
I hadn't thought of that before, but I think it is a valid point…for all the preaching they do on tithe and with all the books they write you would think it would be easy for us to find something spelling out what they believe…but we can't and they don't…Anyone want to take a stab at why?
It might detract from “The Making of A Leader” sales?
Well, if my vote still counts for anything around here, I like the blog.
The bloggers aren’t too bad either.
Carry on.
If I did the link above right, it links to City Publishing where Frank has a book out (3rd on his list) on how to preach before an offering so as to raise the offering amount.
Maybe if you didn’t post 100 times over the weekend, you might not be so burnt out.
I personally think the blog is very helpful and there is wisdom here that is most definitely needed. I like this watch dog very much and appreciate the good work you do here. Thank you!
I also enjoy parody, but I think there is a distinction between plain ole meanness and parody. When they come up, the direct insults and digs make us all look bad, and that is certainly not Biblical. I dig integrity and I believe we can agree to respectfully disagree.
Just my 3 cents.
I hope you’ll keep up the good work here!
He’s just bummed by “the Spurs in 4″.
To answer my own question, the only book I know of written by an MFI leader is by Kevin Conner. (Thanks, David!) Although I’m sure we could find more by other non-MFI authors, it puzzles me that with so many MFI leaders and teachers who emphasize the tithe, that they haven’t written a book about the subject specifically.
http://www.anchordistributors.com/ProductInfo1.aspx?item=215049
His personal web site is here: http://www.kevinconner.org/
For those that don’t know, Rev. Conner has close ties to Dick Iverson who pastored Bible Temple (before it became CBC under Frank, who incidentally married Conner’s daughter Sharon) and started Portland Bible College. Iverson used many of Conner’s works as curriculum for the school. Unless I’m mistaken, I can find no evidence that Rev. Conner has a Theological degree or accreditation, but he appears to have “studied” at Southern California Theological Seminary.
I still have some of my books from my year at PBC and I dug up my copy of “The Foundations of Christian Doctrine”. Guess what? Not a word on tithing!
Reformed Pope, I have to echo Catalyst’s comments: You’ve been working this blog like crazy lately AND defending it on other blogs as well. Take a break. But I do remember the early days when this blog was more satire than heated discussion. I also remember commenting way back then that we should be careful not to include topics that could be considered unfounded slander. The line between healthy criticism and gossip can be a razor’s edge at times. Deciding what comments cross that line can be tough and taxing upon you and other moderators. Some detractors would define ALL of this site as gossip, but I beg to differ. Maybe during your time off you can decide where to draw that line. Email me if you want to chat about it.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Unless I’m mistaken, I can find no evidence that Rev. Conner has a Theological degree or accreditation, but he appears to have “studied†at Southern California Theological Seminary.”)
Based upon earlier posts you’ve made I understand your thinly-veiled point to be that if/since KJC has had no apparent formal training, viz., a degree from an accredited institution, ergo his teaching has no merit.
Well then, KJC would apparently be in good company, inasmuch as neither did Joshua, Samuel, Job, David, Amos, Mark, John, Peter, etc., possess any formal academic training. Interestingly, that fact didn’t seem to keep the Holy Spirit from choosing those men to write their respective books.
Would you care to comment on the lack of academic credentials of Jesus?
May I offer some more questions for your consideration?
1. Does the B.A., Chr. Ed., M.A., Bib. St., and soon-to-be-added Th.D., Sys. Theo., behind my name mean that I am more intelligent than someone with no letters behind their name?
2. What, then, do those appended letters prove?
3. Do those 24 letters mean that I am inherently better than someone with no abbreviations to place after their name?
4. Do those 24 letters mean I am more deserving to be heard than someone else?
5. Do those 24 letters give me the magical right to hold forth on all matters pertinent to Christian Education and Biblical Studies?
Answers:
1. No.
2. Not much, except perhaps that I’ve spent an incredible amount of time, effort, energy, and sweat, not to mention an awful lot of money pursuing something, which after having obtained it, frankly, doesn’t really give me the sense of satisfaction I thought it would.
3. No.
4. Maybe, only insofar as those letters PRESUMABLY imply I’ve spent some time in research in said areas.
5. Not even.
Let us suppose, hypothetically, that someone, perhaps even yourself, comes along who enjoys no formal academic training in those areas that I do, and you proceed to offer your opinion or perhaps make an observation in one of those areas. Would I be justified to sneeringly dismiss you out of hand, automatically concluding that you have nothing of value to say…that you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to those subjects? That I already know it all?
Let’s face it…degrees are nothing more than a piece of paper — not even sheepskin anymore — endorsing someone’s opinion about someone else, nothing more.
Someone says: “You’ve obligingly jumped through my hoops, and so now, in my opinion, you are reeeeally something. I therefore give you my permission to hereafter append these letters to your name in all written communication, formal or otherwise.”
You’ve heard the crude comparison, I presume, that has been made about opinions and…well…you know. How everyone has one and they all stink?
Kevin Conner — or anyone else for that matter — having an “accredited” degree or not matters not a pfennig to me, nor should it to you.
“Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were marveling, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus” (Acts 4:13 NASB).
The elitist snobbery of modern day Pharisaism proves nothing as to the erudition of a person, nor to the academic value of their teaching.
Bottom line: what matters most is the level of learning, “spiritual” more than natural, that has been attained by the person offering their opinion or teaching to others.
If that person has “been with Jesus,” then I want to hear what they have to say.
joebib
If you do decide to quit/leave/go/whatever, someone is going to have to prepare a parody of “Ye Shall Go Out With Joy.” That song was the mandatory service closer whenever another of Pastor Iverson’s elders left to go start a new church.
…and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands
I hate that song. Pseudo-jewish music. Yuck.
Why can’t ya send ‘em out with something cool like Louie Louie, Wild Thing, Smoke on the Water?
Joebibstudent,
Careful with that gun in your hand, it’s likely to go off!
I made the point about Conner not being “lettered” for what I felt was a valid reason. I appreciate your viewpoint, and I do agree that is possible to learn from the Bible and from the Holy Spirit about the things of God. However, if formal learning about these things were of no value, then the idea of Bible colleges and seminaries would have no merit. If we take this concept to its extreme conclusion, we could also do away with the idea of pastors and teachers within the church because, after all, everyone has the same opportunity to learn from the Bible and Holy Spirit, right?
Just as there are those who are mature in the faith who can teach us things, there is great value in learning about OT and NT Church history from those who know it better. Having a formal system in place that gives us an indication of an individual’s dedication to that learning is a valuable measuring stick for their opinions on the Bible and on doctrine. Accredited learning is a valuable service to the Body of Christ, because it brings maturity to others, and just as important, it protects the Body from heresy.
Rev. Conner has written many books and taught in many churches and has had a world-wide impact on many other pastors and leaders, including MFI. So who says he got it all right? Who is holding him accountable to good doctrine? So many have placed their trust in this man’s teachings, and while most of it is good doctrine, there are some aspects of his teachings on certain subjects that I question and even some that I think are way off (like tithing). If someone is going to teach me a great deal about a topic, and if I am to trust them with my learning, I want to know that they did more than just read about the topic on a regular basis. I want to know that others have verified their knowledge and credibility as a teacher. Balk at that if you want to, but think about that the next time you go to the doctor or to the dentist. Is your soul any less important?
Jesus was God. I can’t imagine a higher credential than that. The Disciples studied under the most credentialed teacher in history in an intern program for 3.5 years. They passed their practical exams when they walked on water, healed the sick, and raised the dead. For their written exams they authored and published the definitive works on Christianity. They have the most esteemed letters of any doctoral program: “Apostle”.
1. No, letters do not make you more intelligent. But an intelligent person can remain as ignorant as a dumb person if they are unwilling to be taught by others.
2. “Letters” say that they are a credible authority on that subject. People can have a reasonable assumption that you know what you’re talking about and that you have something worthwhile to say on the topic.
3. Inherently better in every way? No. But better than someone who hasn’t studied rigorously for 4-8 years? Who has also passed the examination of those who went before them? Definitely!
4. I don’t think “deserving” has anything to do with it. But as Proverbs says, “only fools despise wisdom and instruction.” If you don’t wish to learn from someone more educated than yourself, I pity you.
5. There is nothing magical about being a faithful student to Bible study, church history, and sound doctrine. Practical and methodical study of any subject always leads to good results. Your desire to nullify that fact doesn’t make it any less true.
There are dangers with your viewpoint, and the first is one of anarchy. If anyone and everyone all have equal and valid opinions on doctrine, then there is no standard or guideline for us to measure the validity of any one opinion other than our own. This is the equivalent of having no doctrine at all! Second, if we fail to judge leaders and teachers by the standards of their peers or those greater than them, we allow them the opportunity for error and false doctrine. Without correction, these mistakes (even if “honest”) can do irreparable harm to the Church.
[Comment ID #26747 Will Be Quoted Here]
For my friend Locutus:
It’s not a syllable for syllable replacement, but close enough for your generic hebrew sounding song …
You get a pat on the back
And then a boot up the ass
As Frank and his staff
Are laughing behind you
Break out the bub-bl-y
We thought he’d never leave
‘Cause now we’ll get some peace
Don’t let the door you leave thru hit you in the ass
The door you leave thru hit you in the ass
The door you leave thru hit you in the ass
When you leave CBC
© ‘Scrupe
JP
just wanted to comment on and thank you for all the time and effort you put into your blog. i have enjoyed many gut-splitting laughs thru it over the past couple of years. everybody comes to a time when they need to pull away to rest and regroup from whatever they are doing. maybe this is your time. hope you don’t stay away for too long.
also, i am hopeful that many of the unpleasantries and negative personal agendas that have been appearing lately might fade away. i have noticed that several of the previous bloggers have stopped sharing their thoughts.
doesn’t suprise me. what was a lot of satirical silliness (and seriousness) and fun was becoming no longer fun.
anyway, i wanted to share with you that i think you have done a great service to a great number of people thru your expose’s about what has been happening to what used to be Church(that’s with a capital C). you have stated it well how it has been brought down to nothing more than a church(that is with a small c), with no spiritual significance.
anyway, thank you. go away and rest for a while. hope you will return.
Uh oh…help me. I’m trying to stop…resistance is futile! My first parody here. Call this wishful thinking.
To the tune of the above mentioned song…..
The fires of hell be quenched
The snow begin to fall
Because the powers-that-be have said no more tithe required
Each jaw be dropped
And all the folks in the pews
Will crap, will crap their pants.
The folks in the pews will crap their pants
The folks in the pews will crap their pants
The folks in the pews will crap their pants
No more mandated tithe!
City Bible teaches- Give and you will Get
City Business teaches- Work and you will get
City Blble teaches that no church is perfect, and so there
fore do not expect a perfect church, look for the good.
City Bible asks it’s members not to read the blog for there is error there, it is not perfect. Interesting that there is not the same spirit of grace
extended to the error of gossip on the blog as there is
to the unbiblical teaching coming from the pulpit at City Bible.
hummmm
…And all the theives on the hill will clap their hands
[Comment ID #26756 Will Be Quoted Here]
Now, that’s funny.
joebib
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Having a formal system in place that gives us an indication of an individual’s dedication to that learning is a valuable measuring stick for their opinions on the Bible and on doctrine.â€)
It is ONE way which CAN (not yelling here…just can’t figure out, among other things, how to use italics in my posts) be used to measure someone, but by no means is it the ONLY way, nor even necessarily the BEST way.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Accredited learning is a valuable service to the Body of Christâ€)
Again, part of what you say is true. Having an education from a formally accredited institution/seminary CAN provide a service to the Body, but it just as easily can create a problem. If you don’t think so, look back at my response to you on June 6, under seminary/schmeminary where I, perhaps a bit sarcastically, detail the intellectual trap/downward slide that I have personally witnessed certain seminaries/seminarians fall into.
While in many places the Scriptures do herald the benefits of knowledge (e.g., Hos. 4:6), “knowledge†alone and by itself is not necessarily a surefire safeguard from anything — “knowledge makes arrogant†(1 Co. 8:1, NASB), or as the KJV quaintly puts it, “knowledge puffeth up.†Rather, it is the accurate application of it: “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding (Pro. 4:7, KJV).
And while we’re at it, since when is learning/education obtained via an ACCREDITED institution any more valid than getting it from so-called UNACCREDITED sources? True “accreditation†actually means nothing more nor less than the fact that the accrediting association, be it regional or national, has been authorized by – wait for it – the U.S. Department of Education (!) to endorse this or that particular institution with their very own “merit badge,†because, in their opinion they offer, among other things a sufficient amount of secular classes in their curriculum like “Introduction to Macro-Economical Theory,†“Changing Earth Eco-systems,†“Sub-Saharan Culture and Expression,†and “Algebraic Structures,†or life-changing “religious†classes like “The History of Ethics,†“The Validity of Atheism,†“The Dynamics of Islam†(actual names of accredited college courses) etc., and whose 5-member-accreditation-committee graduated from similarly accredited institutions and were similarly indoctrinated studying similar courses.
No offence intended, but your insistence on someone having matriculated from an “accredited†institution with their rigid, pedantic requirements seems somewhat humorous, given your view on the similar abuses of the IC.
Look, I’m obviously all for formal learning, else, why would I (continue to) devote so much time, etc., to it? But, having said that, we must also keep in mind the words of the Preacher in Ecc. 12:12: “Of the making of many books there is no end, and in much study there is weariness for the flesh.â€
I can hear you say “everything he said must be fit into the framework of his a priori: ‘under the sun.’†I know, I know.
Still, within those parameters, the statement does apply.
What I’m saying is that formal, accredited education is not, nor SHOULD IT BE the gauge by which we judge the validity of KJC or anyone else’s ministry. Again, see Acts 4:13, KJV.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Accredited learning…brings maturity to others, and just as important, it protects the Body from heresy.â€)
Again, not necessarily true. Though it CAN provide maturity, and even perhaps protection, many times it does NEITHER, and sometimes even accomplishing the opposite.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Rev. Conner has written many books and taught in many churches and has had a world-wide impact on many other pastors and leaders, including MFI. So who says he got it all right? Who is holding him accountable to good doctrine? So many have placed their trust in this man’s teachings, and while most of it is good doctrine, there are some aspects of his teachings on certain subjects that I question and even some that I think are way off (like tithing). If someone is going to teach me a great deal about a topic, and if I am to trust them with my learning, I want to know that they did more than just read about the topic on a regular basis. I want to know that others have verified their knowledge and credibility as a teacher.â€)
Excellent point. However, to answer your concerns, it must be the Bible which says he got it right, or didn’t, as the case may be. He is to be held accountable by the written Word. His teaching, at all and every point, is ever to be held up against the backdrop of the Inspired Scriptures, coupled with the Holy Spirit’s inner witness as to what is being taught (Rom. 8:14). True, not all of his stuff is infallible — which I have personally heard him admit to more than once, BTW. And personally, I’m with you on his tithing position (as well as perhaps one or two other minor items
) as being a tad heavy-handed. But, how did you and I come to that conclusion? By filtering what he has said through the Word.
Additionally, his doctrinal positions should be, and the last time I checked, WERE subject to scrutiny by his leadership peers, including KRI who, on one occasion at least that I can remember personally expressed to me his difference of opinion with KJC in several areas. I’ve also heard him do this, albeit diplomatically, even from the pulpit of BT back in the day on Glisan.
Also, if any of Bro. Conner’s hearers, if joe-average-Christian sitting in the front row at CBC isn’t checking him out – as I’ve often heard KJC exhort his listeners to do, BTW — in the Berean fashion (Acts 17:10-11), then shame on joe. Surely you can recall the many times over the years when he said that any of his stuff which you don’t happen to agree with should be “put on the shelf.†Or, when he used to say that his listeners shouldn’t put him on a “pedestal†lest God should have to knock him off to teach us not to exalt man.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Jesus was God. I can’t imagine a higher credential than that. The Disciples studied under the most credentialed teacher in history….â€)
Exactly my point, friend. Show me where He had (or needed) ACCREDITED credentials from a nationally-endorsed accrediting institution. Chapter and verse please.
FWIW, a similar aspersion as the one cast at KJC can be seen directed at Christ when He taught in the synagogue in Mk. 6:1-4. His listeners, including, I presume, the local elders, demanded to know “where†He got His message. They took offence at Him precisely because he was just an uncredentialed carpenter.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “…in an intern program for 3.5 years. They passed their practical exams when they walked on water, healed the sick, and raised the dead. For their written exams they authored and published the definitive works on Christianity. They have the most esteemed letters of any doctoral program: “Apostleâ€.â€)
Again, exactly proving my point. The Disciples/Apostles didn’t need no stinking accreditation from the Sanhedrin, the University of Israel at Jerusalem, nor from the Rabbinical Schools of Hillel or Gemaliel. The only credential they had, which agrees with your own admission, BTW, was that of the visible fruit of righteous acts as a manifestation of their spiritual lives. Something which no amount of formal, accredited education could ever be capable of supplying.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “There are dangers with your viewpoint, and the first is one of anarchy.â€)
Come now, that’s a bit of a leap, isn’t it? Surely you don’t think that by having an uncredentialed person teach we will be led into “anarchy?â€
Anyway, do you really believe that PF or any other MFI pastor would allow for even one minute “a state of lawlessness and disorder†to arise at CBC or their respective church? Methinks “the velvet glove†would come crashing down, posthaste.
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “If anyone and everyone all have equal and valid opinions on doctrine, then there is no standard or guideline for us to measure the validity of any one opinion other than our own. This is the equivalent of having no doctrine at all!â€)
As I said, whether it be KJC, PF, KRI, or even a lowly, wanna-be scholar like joebibstudent
ALL teachers, preachers, pastors, etc., are to be held accountable to the Word, and to the manifestation of the Fruit of the Spirit in their lives (Mt. 7:15-20).
(Former Inner Circle Member said: “Second, if we fail to judge leaders and teachers by the standards of their peers or those greater than them, we allow them the opportunity for error and false doctrine.â€)
As I pointed out above, this should already be taking place, and AFAIK, is. And if not, that is, if everything they say is being blindly accepted as incontrovertible Gospel truth, then that’s their – that is, those who aren’t doing this—bad, not the person teaching it. Unless, of course, the minister/teacher allows no possible censure of whatever it is they’re saying. Again, AFAIK, KJC is not guilty of this. If he is, if you have proof of this, I would be glad to know of it.
However, it doesn’t give us the right to cast aspersions at someone’s qualifications if the above is not being done.
(Uncocking gun, placing it back in holster, pushing away from the keyboard
)
joebib