A reader writes:
In 2006, my church (which is not affiliated with MFI) brought in the Eternity drama. There was much subsequent excitement concerning "results" as measured numerically. Personally, I wondered whether the numbers really indicated anything of spiritual value. But, I was not in a position to know, so I attempted to reserve judgment and observe subsequent events unfold.
Several months after Eternity, the senior pastor of the church, who had founded the church 18 years before, announced his resignation. As part of the process of calling a new senior pastor, the church put together a web
site describing the church to prospective candidates. The following quotes reflect some aspects of the state of the church, in the words of the leadership, almost a year after Eternity was presented.
In the "Evangelism Style" section:
"In 2006 [the church] hosted the Oregon-based 'Eternity' dramatic evangelism presentation. In the course of 3 weeks more than 15,000 people partook of the intense drama. Approximately 1,500 people made professions of faith. This was a departure from our relational evangelism."
In the "State of the Church" section:
"Up until 2002, growth in attendance and financial support was a given. As we approached consistent attendance (adults and children) of 1,000 we plateaued." (Comment: That plateau at around 1000 attendees continues to
the present time.)
In a section describing why the church is looking for a new senior pastor:
"Pastor [Doe] has chosen to step down as Senior Pastor to devote his time to his 'first loves': evangelism and missions." (Comment: He did not leave to any position related to MFI or Eternity.) In addition to these statements in the church's own words, I can attest that after Eternity, they started a New Believer's class and honestly seemed to be attempting to follow up with those people who "made professions of faith" during Eternity.
I am left with the following questions. Unfortunately, the situation is such that I would not get any straight answer (or even any answer at all) from the leadership of the church about these questions, so I am left to speculate about the answers. I have my opinions about the answers, but I'll leave it to others to form their own conclusions.
1. Attendance was about 1000 before Eternity. Then Eternity brought about 1500 professions of faith. That is 150% of the entire number of attendees of the church. There was sincere effort at follow-up of those people who made those professions. Yet, a year later, attendance at the church is the same as it was before Eternity. Why?
2. Several months after 1500 professions of faith were reported to have occurred in his church, the long-time pastor left to "devote his time to evangelism and missions." 1500 "professions of faith" didn't give him ample
opportunity to "devote his time to evangelism and missions" right where he already was? Why?
3. When the senior pastor position opened up shortly after Eternity had been there, did any MFI-affiliated pastors apply for the position? How much MFI recruitment goes on during these Eternity gigs?
How much money does shifty schefter charge churches to present his version of the Bible to them? It amazes me that the churches actually hand over money for it…
I’m not defending the Eternity play here, because I happen to think that “scare tactics” not the best way to win a soul to Christ. I do know the Lord has used the play to bring genuine conviction and conversion. So, even though I don’t agree with the tactics OR the fact that apparently this play is a stolen idea…I’m glad that souls HAVE been won.
I can only go by what happened post-Eternity at my old church. To his credit, Rick Snow was not into deliberate “sheep stealing” post-Eternity. MANY of the people who attended were brought by Christian friends/family who had heard the advertisements on the radio or had seen the fliers. In fact, churches would bring people in buses or vans.
Plus, another large number of converts were children, who are pretty much at the mercy of their parents as to whether or not they will be attending church. A lot of the kid conversions were children of current members, as well.
I’m thinking that the altar counselors were instructed to ascertain through conversation with the person if they were already REGULARLY attending a church and find out who brought them (if applicable). I don’t think follow-up with these people (those already attending another church regularly) was done as closely.
I am not a authority on the issue, but having gone to BT/CBC for a major portion of my life I know that what is produced there, eternity or what ever else does not nescessarily follow the scriptural model of things when it comes to presentation. What I mean is, say for instance in eternity, what happens is when the individual dies and goes to heaven there are these dark beings that come up out of the pit and drag them away. The word says that it is appointed to man to die and after that the judgement, from that point on it is relatively vague with respect to the process. We do know that those that Christ knows will enter his eternal rest not according to anything that they have done but entirely according to his grace, those that He does not know will be cast into everlasting fire were the worm does not die, everlasting suffering and seperation from God. Now I am not saying that eternity is a bad idea or evangelistic presentation but what I am saying it is produced for effect, stimulation-response, and that is what it achieves. In a nut shell it is pragmatic in nature and it’s success is based upon the number of professions (the effect) that it produces. The problem here is that these professions really have nothing to do with one coming to the Lord, it may have impact along the way or it may have impact to judgement because the whole point is that the Gospel is the power of God to salvation to them that believe, it is judgement to those who do not believe and they will be held accountable for rejecting it.
The bottom line here is that as Paul says in 1Cor One sows seed and one waters, both are nothing, it is God who brings the increase. Our job is to simply sow the Gospel and tend to it but we should not even worry about the increase it is God who will bring it. My question would be that since the Gospel is the power of God to salvation, the simple pure unadulterated, unobstructed Gospel, then what is wrong with just communicating that alone. IMHO big productions and bright lights just muddy the waters, if we keep it simple as is supported so many ways in the word of God, then He will bring the increase in his time according to his plan.
Hmmm … that sounds a bit like the scene from Ghost where the bad guy dies in the alley after being hit by an automobile. Do the dark beings make scary noises too?
good point, and yes in the play they do. They kind of chase em then throw them into the pit saying your ours now.
On eternity being copied or borrowed material, brownsvill spawned “heavens gates hells flames” and CBC wanted their own at the time, enter Ed Schetner, spelling?, and eternity was born.
Here’s how to spell my name:
http://www.edschefter.com/
Thanks for that correction.
While I’m sure that God uses the Eternity play to His own glory and the salvation of souls, there are some serious theology problems. For me the most glaring is that satan has so much power, owns souls (the devil character actually says it several times) and appears to be the ruler of the demons and even hell. I don’t know where one can find any of this in the scriptures. In fact I am certain that one cannot find it because it is not there. Even if one grants “poetic license” to put a drama together, this is giving the wrong message. As has been already pointed out, satan does not have the job of dragging people into hell. In fact God casts them into hell himself. It also appeared that satan was inferring that blood was required to pay him – satan – for sins. I hope that was not what was meant.
The second serious theological problem is the fallacy that free will equals the inherent ability to just “choose” God. Or as the Eternity Play says, the “power to choose” has been given to us. Where does this idea come from? The scriptures are clear, we are DEAD in our sins. There is no power in spiritual death. How does a dead person make a choice? If we just have to “make the choice” and God will instantly forgive and save us, then is God’s mercy a necessary mercy? In other words, is God obligated to save us when we “make the choice”? Does this not place all the power to be saved squarely in our own hands? God is just a salvation machine, ready to dispense salvation when you activate the “choice” button, as long as you do it in time… Does this not nullify God’s own assertion that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy?
There are other problems too, like babies in heaven, female angels, childhood conversions being valid even after a life of sin, and the list goes on.
I would have thought that a pastor, trained in theology and hermeneutics would be able to do a better job of presenting the Truth of scripture than this. Nothing personal Ed, but what were you thinking?
Ed wasn’t thinking. Ed was plagiarizing.
Most churches have fallen into being hypnotized by the huge crowds in the seats and the numbers that come to an altar. I believe the major problem with evangelism of today; its all about getting people to the church building, so the can get “saved”. Get out amoung the people, thats what Jesus did.
I agree with many of the comments here. Eternity was plagarized. “Scare tactics” are not typically effective (although Jonathan Edwards, the “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” author, seemed to be tied to authentic conversions and revival).
I was at CBC during several rounds of Eternity and prayed with many people at the altars. Nearly without exception, the people I prayed with (and those I met later in follow-up meetings) were already saved, were Christians that were “weak” (as if we all aren’t weak) and struggling and “recommitting” their lives at the Eternity play. A total waste of time in terms of truly reaching lost souls. So, I could absolutely relate to the pastor who wanted to flee a church that believed Eternity (or things like it) constituted its evangelism and missions efforts, and work through other means to take the Good News to unbelievers.
Help Me Understand, I’m with you. Jesus hung out with people, he related to them. If you look around the world, it’s easy to see that THAT is what still really works.
Help Me Understand and My Little pony have hit another nail on the head. The corporate pragmatism of alter call numbers and big crowds at events have been substituted for the real heart of evangelism – personal relationships with people. The church exists to make disciples who in turn go out and make converts who need to be discipled and so the cycle continues. Other than Pentecost, I do not see any event based evangelism in the NT.
Of course I still believe we can use any method that brings glory to God and relates the Truth of the Gospel, but there doesn’t seem to be any real substitute for doing what Jesus did.
So instead of asking what Jesus would do, let’s just do what Jesus did…
Oh geez, now I suppose we’re going to go into the whole Election vs. Freewill, Predestination vs. Foreknowledge, Calvin vs. Arminius, Supralapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism thing.
Goody goody gumdrops. Never mind that the debate hasn’t been resolved in 2,000 years.
What’s next?
Immersion vs. Affusion? (vs. Aspersion?)
Full Inspiration vs. Partial Inspiration?
Verbal-Plenary vs. Dynamic?
Cessation vs. Perpetuity?
Pre-Mil vs. A-Mil? (vs. Post-Mil?)
How about Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib? (vs. Mid-Trib?) (vs. Pre-Wrath?)
I can hear the jingling of spurs and rattling of sabers even now.
Thanks a lot, calvainist.
-joebib
Spurs and sabres? I thought the calvinists liked a good crackling fire…
Don’t worry, I’m satisfied with my previous debating efforts, I’ll let it go.
As for what is next, it seems like we know Jesus as the Way, and believe Him to be the truth, but we seem to come up short when trying to live the Life. I must admit I’ve taken comfort in reading about the struggles others go through, and have been honest enough to write about here. It helps me realize I’m not the only one who seems to be stuck in the mud.
Patience and perseverance are two words that turn up frequently in the NT.
Is it possible we need them so we don’t give up on ourselves?
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I have been to these mass evangelism meetings so many times I can not count them. Are they bad? I dont know if they are good or bad. I think it boils down to what a person believes how people are born-again, saved or whatever word we want to use.
I do not believe saying the sinners prayer at an altar necessarily saves anybody. Can it? Sure it can. But, how do you know? I think we know that people have been convertaed, won, saved, born-again or whatever. When they have been added to the church and they themselves are not being discipled and in the process of reaching and discipling others.
There is such a false Gospel message being preached through our pulpits in america, we are producing mental believers without any real repentance. Seems to me it cost Jesus everyting for man to be brought back into a relationship with Him. It seems it costs me nothing. Just a quick prayer at an altar…I dont think so.
i find it interesting that as christians we have so much time to sit a debate if some one was truely saved. i think i saw someones comment about someone rededicaing their life as a waste of time. be it for from us the tell someone getting right with God that we have more important things to do. lets stop wasting time discussing silliness and take the gospel to the world. I am sure people dont reject the gospel because they say a baby in heaven or a female angel. while i do agree theology is extremely important , i think God cares more about us reaching the lost the debating who is allowed to be an angel.
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Why r we wasting time…great! Go out there and reach the lost. Get to know your waiters/waitresses at your favorite restaurant. Always tip them well. Share your faith after you’ve gotten to know them. Offer to pray for any needs they have and provide practical help when applicable. Same with the folks at your workplace, your neighbors, your hair stylist, your family.
Just don’t rely on a play to do the work you’re too lazy or pre-occupied with “church” business to do. That’s my opinion.
NOTE: I’m not someone who’s picked apart the Eternity play. I believe genuine conversions happen there. Still, scare tactics that lead someone to go down the aisle and pray a prayer are not the best way to share the Gospel.
Just curious…why the post now after this topic was ended 6 months ago? You must be wasting time, as well, to weed through all the posts on a site that you OBVIOUSLY do not agree with and then to resurrect a long-buried topic.
We recently had the Eternity Play at Church of Revelation and I’m not a part-time believer. I know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your transgressions and mine. I know that He shed His blood to save you and me. Through this play over 1,000 lost souls line up outside our church doors, and over 700 gave their life to Christ. Now. We weren’t looking to populate our church. Trust me. We have a large congregation. I give the glory to God. But our mission is to populate the Kingdom Of God. To reach the lost souls in our community. There was such an over flow that many had to be turned away due to the capacity allowed in the building. We are having Pastor Ed, and Eternity back at our church on July 17,18, and 19th. Praise God….. Ezekiel said that the sheperd is going to be held accountable for the sheep in the presence of God. If Pastor Ed is doing something unrighteous trust that God is not a has been God, nor a man that He shall lie….So trust that God will rectify or vindicate. Be encouraged Jesus is the truth, the light and the way….Amen. Can we agree?
19th Dec 2010. had to share the gospel to people who did not know how to read or write. First timers to a church. 100 over. Incorporated part of Eternity and part of Heavens Gates and Hells Flames. Kept it very simple. 20-25mins. For the first time in their life, they knew that there was a place called Heaven and a place called Hell. Thanks to ideas from both dramas. Thank God for the internet. we targeted 200 souls. 300 attended. 15 mins preaching on Luke 19 (rich man and Lazarus) followed by drama. The preaching was taken from PreachtheWord.com ABC of Hell.
I just repeated the exact words of our Lord Jesus. No addittion no subtraction.
27adults understood the message (1st timers) 50 teenagers understood the message. They wanted Jesus in their hearts. A simple prayer and a major follow up in 2011. These were people who heard the gospel for the 1 st time. Gods gives opportunities. Lets use it. Thank you for Eternity and HGHFlames drama.
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Correction on the Scripture.
It should read Luke 16
Those are the same thing, buddy. Eternity is just a rip off of Heavens Gates…I sure hope you didn’t pay anyone for the right to use parts of both.
Sadly, in both of these plays the Power of the Gospel is buried under a message of fear. Glad you could scare some people into your pews…sad for them though.
no one was paid, no one was scared. it was a simple message that Jesus Himself preached (about 2 real persons and 2 real places) period.
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I think there’s a fine line between scare tactics and grace. Jesus did both. He not only spoke of the love of God, but also said things like “Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Hades.” Perhaps it was a different time, or maybe people today only think about their eternal fate when they have to. All the same, even those who walk with Christ should not only love, honor, and cherish their relationship with God, but also walk out their faith with fear and reverence, knowing that God is mercy and grace, but also Justice.
That said, if I was going to try and give people a good look at hell from a well-read perspective, I’d try out “23 minutes in hell”. I was at a presentation at a church in McCall, Id once, and he was pretty convincing as well as biblically sound.
pjd, I’ve heard the 23 minutes in hell. It’s on youtube. Yes, it was scary, but what I liked about it was his emphasis on the idea that hell is the complete absence of God.
There is no light, because God is light.
There is no love, because God is love.
There is no water, because God is the fountain of living water.
There is no mercy, because God is mercy.
and on and on….
We often don’t realize what God provides to us humans on the face of the earth, until we think about what those things are and what a place without them would be — that would be hell.
You know, from what I have learned from the Bible on it’s own, sans the sages and buffoons that say they have spent time in heaven, hell, in God’s presence etc…, what they say is entirely insufficient to what it is really like. If God through the Bible describes heaven as a place so wonderful that we cannot even comprehend it, I cannot even stand to think how terrible hell will be.
One thing I think I can say for certain, every sense will be fine tuned, the brain will most likely be functioning at 100% with overdrive and every sensation will be maximized to such a excruciatingly awful state that anything we can imagine here on earth with respect to suffering would be something to be desired. It bothers me to think what Hell will be like. (Even my description here will not do the true reality justice)
It is true that it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of a angry God!
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Even his “philosophy” concerning demonic influence and dominion was interesting. I asked, during the Q & A, why he saw demons torturing people when the Bible clearly states that Hell was in fact created for the devil and his angels. His response was something along the line of “The earth was seeded to man to take dominion over, but man seeded his authority to the devil, “the prince and power of the air”, through Adam and Eve’s sin. Thus, as the Bible describes hell as being a part of the earth, we can see that it in fact may be that the demons have a semblance of authority in Hell until Hell itself is cast into the lake of fire at the end of time.”
Interesting theory.
A huge hole in the theory is the fact that when Christ exercised His authority over demons they did not want to go to the abyss. For example the demons that tormenting the Gadarene demoniacs wanted to be cast into a herd of swine. The abyss, everlasting darkness and torment was not a place demons desired to be. Also, there is simply no passage where anyone is being tormented by demons beyond life. I think the closest we get to a relevant view is the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man is in a place of suffering and separation but there is no indication of demons at all, or anyone else other than those on the others side of a impassable abyss, Lazarus was in the place of comfort in contrast to the darkness and suffering of the other side.
The play ought to have a disclaimer stating that what is being portrayed is theoretical and not in line with scripture.
Robert said, “The play ought to have a disclaimer stating that what is being portrayed is theoretical and not in line with scripture.”
Maybe the pastors of the Churches we have problems with their doctrine could do the same? Kinda like the “Snake Oil” products that make outrageous claims only to say in the fine print that “these statements have not been approved by the FDA”?
Or as the fair haired City Attorney said, “It is law until someone takes the City to court and proves that it isn’t.”
“You really need to fatten the Church coffers even though it is unBiblical.” Well, maybe that wouldn’t keep people from giving anyway–after all, they have a conscience don’t they? Some choose to believe the lie. I did, as did every blogger on this site.
So true! From my experience so much of church/play/conference alter calls are just Christians returning to their faith. Very few “original” commitments to God come from alter calls. I’ve seen numerous people over the years go down for every alter call, for every event, every week. In fact a majority of big churches are just Christians recycling themselves through various church doors. Upset with one place onto another, searching for the same thing that doesn’t exist at any of the dozens of churches they go to year after year. Reaching new souls from the grasp of the world is something that is not happening often in American churches today. Eternity is just a microcosm of what’s wrong with most churches today. Great message, horrible execution.
You know how people are truly changed and brought to repentance in Christ? When those who do believe in God, get real and down in the trenches and live among the sinners of our world. You know how many Christians I know who only have a handful of non-believer friends? Most Christians only associate with their own kind, which takes away any ability to reach those who don’t believe. If a Christian wants to reach someone they have to work, play, and just live along side those who have no connection to God or church. Letting a non-believe know you serve God, but are still as normal as they are can make a huge impact on someone’s life. People of the world, with no church history or affiliation respond to friendship and service, not preaching and Bible verses. Churches today are just country clubs and members only gathering places for insecure, underachievers to feel important. I know most people like to think their church is the best because they feed the homeless, have a great outreach/small group ministry, or a powerful youth group that draws hundreds if not thousands of kids each week, but if people are really honest with themselves they will realize that most churches are a failure. They fail to achieve the Biblical goal of being Christ’s bride. They fail to be hospitals for the sick. I have been a faithful church member for many, many years and I see the same thing over and over again, year after year. The reality is a majority of churches just plain miss the mark.
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I think the overall point was much like prison. The larger, stronger inmates always beat up and torture the weak ones. Basically, the idea was that they had limited authority because they were the larger inmates. What he said he saw were some demons that were torturing people, and some that were themselves in a state of agony because of their conditions. Essentially, some were worse off than others, but all were still suffering. Anyway, that’s what he said he saw.