Is the Prosperity Doctrine really just fraud?
Posted on June 20th, 2007 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryI stumbled across this article in yesterday's Washington Post about a fortune teller (Uwanawich) who was convicted of theft for promising to stamp out curses for her clients. The facts of the case reminded me of certain a Malachi 3 obsessed pastor.
Here are the facts:
Authorities say Uwanawich, 63, defrauded vulnerable middle-aged women by persuading them to hand over tens of thousands of dollars to crush devastating curses.
The relationship began in December 2004 at Lakeforest Mall, when Uwanawich approached the woman, who was depressed, and handed her a flier promoting her psychic powers.
During meetings at Uwanawich's apartment, the woman, who is of Chinese descent, was told she and her family had a curse that dated to the building of the Great Wall of China. Evidence of the curse came in the form of an egg Uwanawich cracked in front of the woman that had blood and hair and smelled horrid.
I'm not saying the similarities are exact. But I know pastors who speak of curses, promising great wealth if you tithe and calamity if you don't. So what's the difference?
Of course, you could never convice a prosecutor to go after a pastor for promising great wealth. But I wonder if a CBC member who tithed and didn't receive financial blessings, if they could sue for fraud?
Anyone want to try?
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June 20th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Frank will be OK as long as he doesn’t change his name to Ugottatithe.
The key seems to be that Uwanawich (U-Want-A-Witch) was promoting HER powers. Frank promotes God’s powers. In the one case, the woman’s powers failed, in the other, God’s powers failed. So, Frank, is insulated from liability, and as long as he can come up with the occasional person with a testimony that the prosperity doctrine works, I can’t see how he could be convicted of fraud.
June 20th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Ha! I’m glad you picked up on the name? (Uwanawich) I’m convinced that’s the only reason the story got in the paper.
And you’re right, Frank is promoting God’s powers, not his own. I think the real difference is this woman doesn’t really believe in her powers. While I think that Frank, for all his faults, truly believes God will bless those who give him money. And thus, while it may be horrible advice, it probably doesn’t rise to level of Fraud.
That said, I think I’m going to stop calling it the “prosperity doctrine” and start calling it the “prosperity scam”.
June 20th, 2007 at 10:07 am
Frank cannot believe that the bible is with out error and also truly believe what he is preaching. He is to smart for that. Frank knows what he is doing. And while it might not be fraud it is not ok either.
I do feel cheated and lied to and wish I could get my tithe back. Than we could give it to worthy causes like Darfur.
http://www.savedarfur.org/content
June 20th, 2007 at 10:09 am
In any other venue, I’m sure it would be considered an investment fraud.
What I don’t get Justin, is how in the heck are ministers able to convince people (myself once included) that giving to them, or to a church building fund, is the same as giving to God?
Often they point to the Abraham - Melchizedek example - so - do these guys who are demanding a tithe mean to put themselves on the same level as Melchizedek? I mean, IF I ever came face to face with the living, breathing Melchizedek IN THIS LIFE, I’d give Him the whole kittenkaboodle! But Frank, Wendell, standing IN THE PLACE OF Melchizedek and demanding a tithe be paid to them?
Even if for the sake of argument we assumed that Malachi 3:10 still applied, we could STILL make the case for God being robbed because people are giving their tithe to a man, and not God / Melchizedek.
I’d really like to know how they construct a case for them being the representatives of Melchizedek, such that paying them is the same as paying Melchizedek. IF Melchizedek came out to collect from Abraham, is it too much to ask that Melchizedek come out to personally collect the tithe form us, IF indeed it were still required?
Oh well. I think the tithe horse is dead. And the prosperity scam is SOS, different day.
You married yet?
Sam
June 20th, 2007 at 10:48 am
[sigh] Samartan, I apologize to you if I don’t seem real eager to jump into a forced awkward intimate situation that people like to call marriage.
June 20th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Your mom paid me to ask.
June 20th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Hmm.. pay for protection. Sounds like anothing organization I know. Oh yeah, the mafia. Interesting, if you add 2 a’s to MFI you get MaFIa. Coincidence? I think not.
June 20th, 2007 at 7:19 pm
So if we crack open the big egg on the butte we’ll find horrid smelling blood and hair?
June 21st, 2007 at 9:08 am
I imagine smashing it open and watching all the tithes come spilling out, like a giant piggy bank.
June 21st, 2007 at 1:10 pm
I really have to laugh with a belly splitter when I read this stuff. Reminds me of a family who attended Bible Temple, and then that other place, for a number of decades. One lady who had been there form the very beginning, since she was about two years old, was unmercifully and very coldly fired from her job teaching at the school after fourteen years. She was a licensed teacher and was totally dedicated to those kids. She was a very faithful tither all her life. I guess the problem came after her husband had his fill of all that “bunk” up there and refused to tithe on his income anymore. She continued to do so faithfully to the very end. She and three generations of her family were at the very foundation of the beginning of the church, sacrificing and giving finances way beyond any tithe marker. The did it because they love God and to contribute to helping lost people find Him for themselves. Anyway, none of that counted To Frankie and his bunch when they realized how much money they were getting, or should I say, not getting. Folks, all who go there, believe it when I tell you that your tithing record is monitored on a regular basis. Now, all of that being said, is not a bit funny. This lady had never known what it was like to betrayed untill that time. She will hurt for a long time because of it.
This kind’a is:
That family had inherited a sizable amount of money and were being thoughtful about how much, if any, should go to the church. Well the answer came soon from the CEO and his yes men when they took their action. Well, lets put it this way. By that action, Frankie just kissed some 20 grand goodbye. And the family, consisting of three generations, is totally greatful to have departed that place. The dark and sinister methods will live on in their memories.
” God, help the blind who remain there, to see”
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:15 am
pleasedreader,
I know the situation you are talking about. It is true. You left out the aged widow who served the school in the parking lot directing traffic in the morning rush. It was her joy seeing the children and parents in the mornings….she was cut off! About 6 weeks later, PF drove up in a new SUV.
Here is what I see; “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:13 pm
This is in regard to the ex-teacher and 50+years servant to that which was once a great Church, but has become a dreadful place.
At the time that dastardly deed was committed by PF and his cronies,one of the student mothers confronted pf and ask why he did that. All pf would say was, “you have to see the whole picture”. That was all he would say. No more comment was forth coming. Shows great godly compassion, doesn’t it!! That lady immediately removed her kid from the school.
That story does have a happy ending though. In spite of the pain incurred, that teacher moved on with her life and has become very happy in her Public School teaching position. She no longer lives under the tremendous stress and pressure she knew back then. They called it “ministry”. Looks more like “shmministry”
She and her family now go to a different(real) Church, which is full of cbc refugees, and are happy there. But, the mention of cbc or anything mfi creates a very negative chill. With rare exception, their trust in church leadership is nil. But they do love their pastor.
God’s grace and mercy be upon all of you.
But God knows. He has blessed her many times over since then.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:46 pm
I heard she was chosen to be let go becuse they had enough money to survive instant loss of income more so than any other teachers on staff…. who knows. I know there was more than one of her fellow teachers wondering why they did not “fire” the teacher who was the worst teacher on staff…
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:35 am
The answer at that time was obvious. The other teacher’s family was well established in that place for years. They were financially well to do and were big givers of money to the “cbc cause.”
Now, if you was frankie, which one would you have chosen to keep?
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:26 pm
It’s funny that this has come up again. People are actually talking about my mother. I had written in about this a couple of years ago. Anyway, it’s true that she was let go from CCS about six years ago. Three weeks after the school year had begun, the principal walked into her classroom after school one day and told her that “they” were going to have to let her go due to budget cuts. She asked him, “Why me?” and he responded that “they” felt that she was the most financially set out of all the teachers there. She was told that she could work the remainder of the week, but she told him absolutely not. Of course she was distraught over this as she had attended that church basically her entire life. To make it worse, her family was one of the first thirteen original members. What als made things bad was that she had given up her teaching career and retirement benefits through the public school system all to work at the church school. And for what? To be treated like ****. But, it was her “ministry”, or so she thought.
A couple days after the “firing” both my parents went into the principal’s office to ask him why this had happened. He didn’t have any real answers but that “they” knew that she would be financially ok unlike others at the school and that she had been talking about retirement. Since when is this their decision??? We had also heard of parents who had spoken to the idiot leader of that church and his response was that she didn’t attend the church anymore, and he brought up the financial thing again. (At this time, my parents had left CBC and began attending another church.)
Due to all of this, my mother fell into a depression for awhile. After about a year, she decided that she wanted to start exploring teaching positions in the public school system and did in fact obtain a job. Doing this has been the best thing she has ever done and she only wishes that she had done it sooner. She talks about how she is respected and treated like a teaching professional and that it is so nice to not have to be forced into “serving” at church conferences, like the teachers at CCS used to (still do) have to do. She hasn’t been happier.
So as you can see, in the long run, her being fired has been the best thing for our family. Me, personally, am so glad to be out of that cultish, brainwashing place and glad to be in the real world now.
So that’s the story. I just wanted to share what exactly happened since so many are writing in about this subject.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:27 pm
I just can’t believe the way that people are treated there…
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:43 pm
lucygirl has the best stories.
June 25th, 2007 at 6:46 am
Lucygirl’s Mother was stung by the group she trusted with her whole existence. She certainly learned a huge lesson but has moved on now to a much better and happier way of life.
Oh, yeah! When all this happened, the “dragon lady of legaleze” of Portland Attorneys somehow got wind of this atrocious situation. She was chomping at the bit hoping to get an opportunity to her representive in a descrimination law suit. She knew there was much money to be made here.
But, the said mother chose to believe the scriptures that talk about God knowing all of this and His judgement will be the final and acceptable in all of this as far as she is concerned. She counts her blessings instead.
June 25th, 2007 at 6:49 am
Sounds like the besr solution and maybe the finally to all this
June 25th, 2007 at 6:57 am
Don’t you think there is a duty to hold the leadership accountable in order to prevent future abuse? If she had sued the church, they would likely think twice about randomly firing someone in the future.
June 25th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Class action, anyone?
June 25th, 2007 at 3:08 pm
According to a small group I visited a few weeks back, The people who gave more to the kingdom of God will live in a mansion (yes, this word was actually used) in heaven and those who gave less will live in a small barn. What? Are they saying there will be economic heirarchies up in heaven too?
June 25th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
You know PR, it’s all for good, like it or not. I have become convinced that God will let people chase their tails for as long as they want. For the person who sinks everything into the ‘prosperity doctrine’ and just reaps the wind - they learn that men are greedy and liars - and that if they had sought the Lord for themselves, or bothered to study the scriptures, they could have been spared the hard lessons of ignorance and blind following …
Sooner or later the person who constantly seeks to satisfy itching ears, their heart is still longing … in a sense, the abundance of falsehood is good because it teaches us the precious rarity of that which is worth keeping.
Wisdom is indeed worth more than gold or silver.
Sam
June 25th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Dear IgfCBC — Welcome to the blog.
You may be attending CBC, and you may not agree with their doctrines, but as has been said here before, if you do not agree with their doctrine of tithing and back it up with regular checks, you will not get to do anything in the church other than warm a seat.
June 26th, 2007 at 1:43 am
Ha, ha, well, at least it is a way to avoid ‘burnout’.
If you sign up for the whole enchilada, they will have you running in circles going to endless meetings, hosting people for conferences, etc….go, go, go, do, do do!!!
They really could use a couple of people who spend time in contemplation, listening to the Lord. Who knows, maybe someday they will even get more than 10-15 people to visit the prayer center on a regular basis. (most who do visit seem to be foreign students) Lets see, 10-15 people out of 2500=.6% of the population up there spends any time at the ‘prayer center’! I wonder if that is a reflection of leadership prayer life?
June 26th, 2007 at 8:05 am
Speaking of prayer, a great subject by the way, I pause to ponder about whatever happened to the good old days when two to three hundred poeple gathered before and after regular Church services just to pray and invite the Holy Spirit to come into their worship services. Is that of no significance anymore? Surely, back in those days it was the most significant part of each service. To those of that time, remember how wonderful and life fulfilling it was.
Oh well, choose you this day who or what you will serve(paraphrased!
June 26th, 2007 at 8:31 am
I remember when pre-service prayer was required for PBC students, and people regularly gathered in Ivy Hall for it. In the transition to the domes, some of that was lost, since they made the decision to do it in the main sanctuary, which is awkward for both members and guests. Throw in the wackiness of the Renewal movement and a lot of people got turned off to it, I think. It’s a bit weird to see a bunch of people on the floor yelling and moaning!
So do they still do this?
June 26th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
whatHEsaid:
There ARE people there who pray and listen to the Lord. Unfortunately, if they hear something, there is no one to tell. (Well, you can tell your DP, but you will get zero feedback nor will you see any response). BTDT. It’s a hard place to be an intercessor.
FICM:
No. My friends still there tell me that the prayer opportunities are pretty much prescribed.
June 26th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Anna, I’m curious about something. What does DP stand for? The reason I ask is because there is a cultic group in Christianity which you may have heard of called the International Churches of Christ (AKA: ICC for short or Boston Movement) which uses the term “DP” (short for”Discipleship partner”). I’ve never heard the term used from outside the ICC group and am wondering if City Bible has instituted mandatory discipleship partners as well? The ICC (which is an offshoot from the mainline Churches of Christ) has received MUCH criticism for the amount of control it exerts over its members. 4 out of 5 members finally leave due to utter breakdown and exhaustion at all the demands (tithing, special monetary contributions, mandatory number of visitors brought, mandatory attendance to every meeting, being told who to marry or date, where to live, etc) placed upon them. When they leave this movement, they are told they are going to hell because they’re leaving God’s church.
June 26th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Hi FormerACCM, wow ICC sounds like a place to stay away from!
No, DP simply stands for District Pastor. CBC is divided into 12 districts (last I heard). Some districts are geographical and some are specialized (like youth or ethnic). Since nobody (hardly) has access to the senior pastor in a mega-church, the DP is the person to go to if you need to contact the leadership.
June 26th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Whew! Thanks for the clarification. It’s good to know that CBC hasn’t gone THAT far! Still, it seems pretty impersonal when the church is so big that you can’t even get to know your senior pastor!
June 26th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
We got to know our new Pastor since we departed that place,aka. CBC.
It’s great. He is a wonderful Godly man. Very people and membership oriented , always takes time to talk.(for a change)
June 26th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Hi Anna, I fully realize that one must be a ‘tither’ in order to even be an intercessor at CBC. Never the less, saying “there is no one to tell” is a bit too bleak of an outlook. I find opportunities to encourage and pray for people, and speak what the Holy spirit tells me. It is easy to tell when you have hit the mark, as people have tears in their eyes and thank you for your time and concern.
I no longer subscribe to the ‘leadership’ theory held at CBC, so I don’t care too much if they don’t listen. I have come to respect the ‘Little Way’ of St. Therese, sharing small things. I have only read about this St. recently, but it fits right in with what I learned elsewhere. (Theo Johnson, and Healing Touch Ministries) So much of the megachurch is about the ‘big’ event or conference, the big gathering of people etc..I find the Kingdom of God is about being obedient in the little things that He tells you to do, and then having the joy of His fellowship.
To close, I want to say I have really enjoyed your insights and comments!
You have a way of boiling things down to their essence that is clearly a gift from the Holy Spirit. The Kingdom could use more writers like you.
June 27th, 2007 at 5:07 am
(pleasedreader said: “Speaking of prayer, a great subject by the way, I pause to ponder about whatever happened to the good old days when two to three hundred poeple gathered before and after regular Church services just to pray and invite the Holy Spirit to come into their worship services. Is that of no significance anymore? Surely, back in those days it was the most significant part of each service. To those of that time, remember how wonderful and life fulfilling it was.”)
I, too, fondly remember those long ago times in Ivy when seems like there were closer to 600-700, maybe more I reckon, praying and seeking the Lord. And yes, it sure did seem to be the highlight of the service; for me and my family it was, anyway.
And to answer your question, pr, I’ll tell you what happened to those “good old days:” they got trampled underfoot in the mad drive to become “seeker-friendly,” which today’s mega-church/purpose-driven-espousers will tell you is exactly what the unbeliever DOESN’T want, much less need, even though 1 Cor. 14:24-25 says differently.
Tozer puts it like this: “We must not imagine ourselves commissioned to make Christ acceptable to big business, the press, the world of sports or modern education. We are not diplomats but prophets, and our message is not a compromise but an ultimatum.”
and again,
“… a quasi-Christianity is achieving acceptance by compromise. It is DICKERING with the unregenerate world for acceptance and…it is OFFERING CHRIST AT BARGAIN PRICES TO WIN CUSTOMERS. The total result is a conglomerate religious mess that cannot but make the reverent Christian (and I dare say Christ) sick in his heart.” (emphasis and parenthesis mine)
But, and if, these said “seekers” are not actively sought, even pursued, and then, once lured within our doors, duly stroked so as to acquire from them their guilt-induced tithes/offerings, how would we ever pay for our ever-expanding, over-priced cathedrals and dramatic productions? Which in turn, were constructed and financed in order to lure more money-laden lemmings into the doors in the first place. Ah, yes, the perfect “vicious cycle.”
joebib
June 27th, 2007 at 7:21 am
Dear Jobib:
I think you have said it well about the end of that wonderful era gone by. I know there are many readers and writers here that did not experience that time as we were privileged to have. It must have been a great time with the Lord for what else could have drawn so many people constantly, but the Holy Spirit. The Church then was forever bulging at the seems, even with two and three services a day. I am totally perplexed when pondering what happened to have caused the transition from what was then to what is now. I truly believe it began with the move from the old Bible Temple facility to that place upon the hill. With that came “pride.”
We all know what the Bible says about that. Witness: The old church that sought after God so zealously has fallen. Witness: That bunch that runs the show up there now can’t even keep it half full. Witness: All of those seats that have been removed from the back at cbc.(small letters). I remember hearing from the pulpit there about how they planned to evangelize(?) the wealthy. Looks like that plan didn’t work out quite as hoped.
I heard someone say a short time ago,” I think the Church has left a place they should not have. It is a place we need to return to. That is a house of worshipping and praising og God above all other things.” I agree!
June 27th, 2007 at 7:32 am
That’s because a business sees you as a tool to reach their bottom line. It’s all about profit and loss. If they see you as a bad tool, they’ll replace you with another.
June 27th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Well said indeed!
June 27th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
I remember a prophecy there about 10 or more years ago saying that their candle stick was going to be removed. Makes me wonder when I look back from then till now. Do ya think the light is getting dimmer?
June 28th, 2007 at 7:40 am
Do I think the “Light” is getting dimmer? Surely I say to you, I think the “Light” that shined so brightly within the Church of then, has long ago been cast out and replaced by an artificial light (doctrine) more suitable to the needs of that church of now.
You know. Maybe we all should repent from our crticism of “that place” and instead pray that repentance would be sought by the executive branch of “that place.”
NAAAAAAAA!!!!! That wouldn’t be any fun, would it?
June 28th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Well said about the light, pleased. You also said,
Criticism is one thing; rebuke and reprove is another — and it is biblical. If repentance is needed, the Lord will gently tell His children. If they do not heed, He will speak louder and louder until it is public.
And I don’t think it’s a choice between rebuke or pray. We can do both. Actually, if we ARE doing both, the rebuke will be less likely to get nasty or personal.
grace
June 28th, 2007 at 12:26 pm
anna said:
“If they do not heed, He will speak louder and louder until it is public.”
The idea of that actually makes me sad and a little bit scared for those people still there that I love. I actually had that thought earlier today for the first time — that it would take a public scandal for anyone on the inside to begin to question things. And that is so sad because there is so much pain and heartache caused in that.
June 29th, 2007 at 2:57 am
(anna said: “Criticism is one thing; rebuke and reprove is another — and it is biblical. If repentance is needed, the Lord will gently tell His children. IF THEY DO NOT HEED, HE WILL SPEAK LOUDER AND LOUDER UNTIL IT IS PUBLIC.”) (emphasis mine)
Would to God this could actually take place, but I’m not so sure.
Which brings up an interesting idea. At what point DOES or WILL the Lord intervene and bring said public attention to bear?
Seeker-friendly, purpose-driven, money-oriented mega-churches with grotesque facilities and monstrous budgets — filled with what Bro. Dave M. observed to be mostly Cappuccino-sipping Christians wearing dressy shirts (untucked, of course) — seem to be taking over the ecclesiastical world as we know it.
So, I’m wondering: how many times have we seen the leadership of these churches lovingly approached/confronted by well-meaning, but probably naive, believers in their fellowships, or, by other concerned pastors/ministers, and yet who have still continued in their ways?
I mean, haven’t we all observed the fact that God, despite our pleas to the contrary, doesn’t always step in and remedy bad situations, punish leadership and instill corrective measures? In fact, I have usually seen Him allow these situations to continue, year after year.
By way of example, I haven’t witnessed God making any radical changes of late to the Dispensational, Pre-Trib-touting crowd, and that falsity has been duping people for what, over 175 years or so, to date? They’re as strong as ever, which if you doubt, take a look at the nearly 70 million copies which their manual, LaHaye’s “Left Behind Series,” have sold. Outpacing Bible sales in many places. That’s a lot of souls whom the Lord is, in effect, allowing to buy into that swill.
Or what about those churches/denominations that spend so much of their time/effort decrying Charismaniacs, Healing, the Gifts of the Spirit, etc? Next Sunday morning, why doesn’t the Lord simply send in one of His true prophets to blast forth with a few Words of Knowledge directed at the pastoral staff, and perhaps at one or two key players in the congregation. Maybe even heal a few cripples, all the while speaking in tongues. And then, once he has their undivided attention, proceed to change their doctrine, point by point, in one fell swoop? Now, that would be great, wouldn’t it?
On the contrary, these churches — whose Senior Pastors apparently while away their spare time [not like those silly, first-century Apostles (Acts 6:4) who by prayer and Bible study, “turned the world upside down” (Acts 17:6, KJV)] writing more and more best-selling books — are currently slated to outnumber traditional, conservative churches by the year 2113 (heh-heh, just a guess).
Pastors of small, unenlightened (read “biblically-modeled”) local churches then madly rush to their local Bible bookstores to gobble these books up, willingly getting in line to sip the Jonesian kool-aid of the emerging church movement, and which their parishioners then scramble to read and leave conspicuously placed on their coffee tables.
In my view, the Lord usually only steps in when hearts are open to His voice (cf. Ps. 95:7-8), when consciences are attuned to the wooing of the Spirit (Rom. 8:14), and leadership is continually checking their doctrine against the Word (Acts 17:11b). It’s been my experience that until His people do this, God allows them to retain their closeminded ways, something along the lines of the principle seen in Rev. 22:11.
YMMV
joebib
June 29th, 2007 at 6:35 am
Dear Jobib:
You certainly have my Amen, Amen and Amen to your view stated in your last paragraph of your comment above. You stated it well.
Isn’t it amazing just how simple the truth of the Gospel really is!
aka, Billy Graham, “Repent of your sin, accept Jesus as Lord, and be saved from eternal damnation.” Pretty simple. His whole life was dedicated to that simple teaching. If someone was keeping score on how many people were truly “saved” thru or during his campaigns, I think he would have a very long sheet. Oh yeah,! He never used that coersive method of “tithing by guilt.” It was always the free will offering Quite successful I’d say.
June 29th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
I see many comments throughout this blog about the great ole days…
WAKE UP FOLKS!!!!
I was there in the Ivy Hall praying with humble heart, believing that God would bless me. It felt very good and it felt cozy. I felt God was with me in unique and personal way. I had sincere desire for the spirit of the lord to annoint me to preach the gospel to the poor, to break the chains, set the prisoners free. I expected to live happy ever after.
When my life was ever after, but not as happy as I expected, I faced a crisis of faith. I totally re-evaluated top to bottom my belief of bible and God. I came through it with certainty that there is a loving God. Much, but not all, of my experiences were “real”. BUT, the PROMISE I believed in, which I heard from the pulpit, was “AMERICAN DREAM”.
WAKE UP! The tree was planted back then by pastor Iverson. The promises over the pulpit were seeds of the american dream and prosperity. It just was not as obvious to those of us who were not looking for it. People were being fired for stupid reasons, feelings were being hurt. The staff and leaders said horendous things. They were excommunicating people. They were making people confess in front of the congregation “during prayer” they had sex with their fiance’.
The fruit is off the same tree. Iverson just happened to be softer toward individual people than Frank. He knew politically who to keep happy, not just monitarily. The seeds were being planted. The fruit is off the same tree.
You say you remeber Ivy Hall??? I remember when Ivy Hall was the sancturary and there was a building plan to build the new sacntuary with the purple carpet. There was a service where they had all the men stand up and they were “challenged” to give an extra $1000 each above their tithe and trust God to provide. This was several years ago when $1000 was a months wage for most. The guilt was huge for any that did not participate.There was always a project that needed extra money. I fell into it with everyone else. Once I sold a car, and instead of paying toward the loan on the new car, I gave the cash without identifying who I was into offering. I was expecting God to fix my financial problems because I, as the saying goes was “Giving out of my need”, a prosperity hoax. I thought since I “gave it in secret, god would bless me openly.”
You remember a prophecy from 10 years ago, I remember prophecies from 25 years ago… they are all repeated over and over and over. Every new year’s eve service for 25 years you could count on hearing a prophecy about “change is coming”.
Why are all these “false” churches of all denomonations able to continue? Because people who were of the same mind set WE were when WE started going are still exist. People are looking for connection to other people and god. Always have, and always will.
I just go crazy when I read people saying how great it was. Life would have been great where ever you could find so many friends and warmth and cozy. It was youth, stupid youth.
I’m challenging us to keep some reality with our memories.