Well, I made it. 2 weeks since the last time I looked at this blog (or any other like it). 2 relaxing weeks…which have led to this extremely long post. In that time, I managed to come up with this defense of our blog. But before I get into that, I'd like to lay out a few disclaimers:
- I believe that the Prosperity Doctrine which is taught by CBC, TCC, and many others is a false doctrine that is detrimental to the faith of those who attend. If I am wrong then I will be punished heavily (the Bible makes that very clear).
- Gossip is wrong. There is no excuse for gossip. I will not attempt to defend a gossip blog.
- If this blog is written out of anger, bitterness, or revenge than it is wrong. These are not the issues that I want to debate. The only way this blog works is if we are correct in the fact that CBC is harming the Gospel of Jesus through the false teachings from the pulpit. (I do not believe that everything taught at CBC is false, but there is enough there to make a strong case for __________….my lawyers advised that I remove this sentence. You get the point.)
- Not everyone or everything at these churches is wrong or bad. There are plenty of good people doing good things. Its unfortunate that they don't get any help from the pulpit.
- I didn't really spend that much time looking up a defense…more on that later.
So here it is; two weeks later this is what I came up with: 3 YouTube videos that are worth checking out:
The first is video montage called There's a sucker born every minute. It's funny for the first minute.
Then check out this completely unrelated parody of Lacey and Kameron's SYTYCD performance. It's only funny if you watch the show…which I do.
And finally watch this unfunny, but powerful video of John Piper on the Prosperity Doctrine.
Of course I didn't just use YouTube for my research, I also went to the Bible where I found out this:
Proverbs 13:5 "The righteous hate what is false"…
I am not going list every scripture that deals with false teachings, you should look them up for yourself, but the Bible is full of warnings against false prophets and teachings. That fact alone is reason enough for this blog, but lets continue.
I shall now read from Paul's 2nd letter to the Corinthians:
I'm actually not going to, I just wanted to fit in a Wedding Crashers quote, but I urge you to read 2nd Corinthians especially chapters 11 and 12 and this commentary on the same. Since you are not going to read it, I will sum up for you my understanding of these verses.
In 2nd Corinthians Paul is addressing the Church of Corinth and the Christians throughout Achaia (2 Cor 1:1).The Corinthian church had been infiltrated by false teachers and Paul wanted to address these issues. When Paul speaks of these false teachers he uses rather harsh language (2 Cor 11:13-15) and even "biting sarcasm" (2 Cor 11:16-21).
Note that he does NOT send this letter to the false apostles directly. He does NOT take 2 or 3 witnesses. He does NOT just ignore the teaching and let God be the judge. Instead, he sends this letter to the church and the people of the area. Paul is not concerned that the "non-Christian" people living in Achaia might see this letter, he is more concerned with addressing these false "super-apostles"…and he is not nice about it.
Furthermore, these letters are then placed in the Book that we want all non-Christians to read (hint: the Bible) and we hope that after they read these letters that they then believe in Jesus. I found a number of examples like this in the Bible where members of the church were publicly rebuked for their false teachings. There is nothing wrong with public rebukes, IMHO. And, based on the little research I did, I would have to say that a blog is an excellent way to rebuke a church for leading it's members away from Jesus…but NONE of that is what I "received" during my hiatus.
Here is the conclusion I came to regarding this blog:
We spend way too much time focusing on the negative side of Christianity.
This is why I didn't spend much time researching a "blog defense"…I feel (hope) I've moved on.
Yes, the crap that is spewed by PF each Sunday is offensive. Yes, the fact that they want to continue to grow their church which will only lead to them corrupting the minds of others is disturbing. Yes, the fact that they trade the work of Jesus on the Cross for the American Dream is flat out wrong. But you know what?
The Bible is replete with scriptures that point away from what City Bible Church, The City Church and many others teach. In fact, while I was looking up scriptures about false teachers, I found so many examples that say "Watch out for the trap of Prosperity". It's all over the Bible. This led me to this conclusion: If anyone who attends one of these churches wants to find the truth, it's out there. In fact it's all over the place. Prosperity with a Purpose is not a Biblical doctrine. Its not. That is why you see these preachers taking parts of verses and pairing them up with parts of other verses as they try to weave their web.
All anyone has to do is stop making IDOLS out of their CHURCH, their PASTOR, their Life and they will find the truth. Let me list a couple of scriptures just to help make my point:
1 Timothy 6:6-9… 6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
Matthew 19:21-23… 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Believe me, there are plenty of others that say the same thing. So what's my point?
During my "fast", I stopped listening to sermons by Frank, Judah, and Wendell, but I still needed to get my weekly sermon fix, so I started listening to a number of sermons by John Piper. The difference was huge. I listened to an 8 sermon set of Piper's called Light & Heat in which he encouraged us to be happy and satisfied in Christ. John Piper refers to himself as a Christian Hedonist, which at first glance sounds awfully similar to the Prosperity Doctrine that we hate so much. However, instead of talking about personal growth and gain he made this point (over and over):
God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him.
Yes, we should pursue happiness and joy, but we need to do so "in Christ". Happiness may be persecution; it may involve pain and hardship, but if we can begin to understand what we have in Christ, none of that will matter. We will still be happy, and God will get the glory for it.
Look at what the apostles went through; look at what Jesus went through. None of it involved "Personal Prosperity", but they understood that ETERNAL LIFE is far more valuable than anything that the world can do to us. How does the song go? "You're all I want, You're all I need, You're everything…everything."
If we really understood the value of Salvation, how would we live our lives? Would we pursue personal gain or would we spend our lives living for Christ?
Somewhere along the way I lost my joy. Christianity became a burden to me and I think it is all because I spent so much time focusing on the FALSE. False teachers, preachers, and doctrine. It weighed me down to the point that I wasn't able to enjoy Christ.
I want to give that side up. Feel free to carry on pointing out the sins of the church, but don't let it rob you like I let it rob me. I'm not quitting this blog, but I want to change the focus…which may result in quite a few less posts. I want to live a life that honors God. I no longer feel any responsibility to point out the errors of CBC…the Bible does that far better than I could ever do. I want my joy back. I want to show the world that I am satisfied in Christ so that He gets the glory.
John Piper read this quote from Blaise Pascal that really struck me:
Year of grace 1654, Monday 23 November, feast of St. Clement . . . from about half past ten at night to about half an hour after midnight, FIRE. God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob, not of philosophers and scholars. Certitude, heartfelt joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. God of Jesus Christ. "My God and your God." . . . Joy, Joy, Joy, tears of joy. . . Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. May I never be separated from him.
I'm not there yet, but that is where I want to be. This is what I want my heart to feel…Joy, Joy, Joy, tears of joy… Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. May I never be separated from him.
Hi, i just surfed in searching for interesting blogs on Spirituality, you have a cool blog. Do keep up the good work. I’ll be back even though i live far from where you live. its nice to be able to see what people from across the world thinks.
Warm Regards from the Other Side of the Moon.
On a related note perhaps you might find the following link interesting. Its propossing a theory and i’ll like to hear your take on the subject via comments. See ya…
Was
Jesus an Essenes ?
Bibby
Kerala, India
Good word, Pope. Welcome back.
“Year of grace 1654, Monday 23 November, feast of St. Clement . . . from about half past ten at night to about half an hour after midnight, FIRE. God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob, not of philosophers and scholars. Certitude, heartfelt joy, peace. God of Jesus Christ. God of Jesus Christ. “My God and your God.” . . . Joy, Joy, Joy, tears of joy. . . Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. May I never be separated from him.”
I’m not there yet, but that is where I want to be. This is what I want my heart to feel…Joy, Joy, Joy, tears of joy… Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. May I never be separated from him.
I say, “Amen.”
joebib
I don’t ascribe to John Piper only because Gregg Harris at HOFCC did/does tout to be in the same camp, and Gregg has some strange doctrines/principles/beliefs that I think are not right. Gregg would proclaim he was REFORMED and had a REFORMED church.. whatever..
We are Christians and labels and titles divide… do they conquer?? But WHAT do they thus conquer?
wow, JP, I second that amen!
living life: this is a round-about way to comment about Gregg Harris. A sheep farmer in NewZealand wrote this to explain how sheep learn to relate to their shepherd: When the lambs are young, they don’t know the shepherd’s voice, but they know their mums. So the little lambs follow their mums around while the mums follow the shepherd. After awhile of being with both mums and shepherd, they learn to recognize the shepherd for themselves and then they follow him directly.
OK, so Gregg and Sono are strong Christians with definite convictions. They gather a bunch of lambs around them. Fair enough. But as leaders, they are responsible to teach the lambs to learn the voice of the Shepherd for themselves and be weaned from them. I think in many cases that has not happened. Don’t know why.
But if you read John Piper, you will find him teaching people to get to know the Shepherd. It’s very refreshing.
RP said: “I no longer feel any responsibility to point out the errors of CBC…the Bible does that far better than I could ever do. I want my joy back…”
RP: Welcome back! Thanks for your openness and honesty with us. It sounds like you have a very needed break from the blog and maybe even a personal epiphany. I feel that some of your comments will still need clarification as time goes on, but good for you as you follow the leading of the Spirit to go deeper into the development of your personal relationship with Jesus. No matter how long it takes, in my opinion, getting one’s joy back is the most important thing in a Christian’s life!
I agree that nothing is worth losing our joy over because “the joy of the Lord is our strength.” No joy – no strength! I have found that God actually leads us many times through us following that which gives us the most joy in our spirits. The challenge, however, can be learning to discern between spiritual joy and emotional happy feelings. I want to encourage you to follow the Spirit in this new season of your life and whatever releases your joy and satisfaction in God.
Your comment reminded me…A couple of months ago when I was upset over some of the problems in the churches, the Spirit seemed to whisper to me that he had provided a way for me to be able to escape such “church” anxiety: his presence. Worship. Pouring out my heart. Enjoying him. Entering into the Spirit more. That will always be my escape – and my ultimate joy, too.
If you would indulge me: When you said that you “no longer feel any responsibility to point out the errors of CBC,” you might be experiencing the breaking off of some emotional co-dependency upon CBC. A part of co-dependency can be the feeling of over-responsibility toward that with which we have been emotionally linked. I know that I think that I am still working through some of that in my own life (not that you would have to, too!) and it’s been many years since I left. Piper’s resonating comment about the “joy, joy, joy, tears of joy!” speaks to me of deep emotional healing and release. Let the tears flow!
P.S. I am still struggling over what “gossip” is and what it is not…but your post is fabulous, RP!
JP,
I think you have come to a good place, and I would echo David’s comments about finding joy outside of what you do here (or in spite of here?). From what I’ve seen, you’ve got a great family and wonderful kids – I would imagine that they give you a lot of personal joy.
For myself, I do find some joy in discussing issues that stem from the criticisms of CBC and their ilk. Some of the longer threads about tithing I have thoroughly enjoyed, and the recent thread about Biblical inerrancy was fun and I learned a lot. This blog has become so much more than satire songs and criticisms.
As far as defining gossip, I think that you should ask people not to tell stories about CBC/CCC or other individuals unless they were personally involved, or the events are/were public knowledge. I guess you’ll just have to use your best judgment whether or not someone crosses the line on that.
Welcome back!
Well, I am fairly new to this blog, and when I first stumbled upon it I was amazed at the vast number of things, thoughts and thinking processes that were written in the blog that I have thought and think regarding CBC, et.al. I absolutely loathe the entire system that I/we have grown up in and wish that we could burn the entire thing down.
However, when I saw them objectified on virtual paper (the blog), I was amazed at how crass, harsh, vitriolic, personal, and caustic they sounded. It wasn’t the content, but it was the objectification of it…seeing outside of myself and my own situation. At the end of the day I believe it was is simply just not Christ-like nor Pauline.
While Paul may agree with all of it, (or at least some of it), I believe he would have to say NO to it for the simple reason that it seems to flow out of a heart-position that is not whole, healthy and filled with ‘joy’! If Paul was blogging at City Business Church he may say some of the same things…but, I think it wouldn’t feel the way most of the entries feel.
Maybe we are to suffer for Christ and not ourselves. We are to suffer for His sake and offense, not our own offenses (as real as they may be).
I think that the best way to negate the false is to be, do, and build the true…from the inside out.
So, I applaud your new-found joy, perspective, and ‘life’. May God continue to ‘reform’ you that you may truly be Reformed Pope.
KBS
(Karl Barth Simpson said: “However, when I saw them objectified on virtual paper (the blog), I was amazed at how crass, harsh, vitriolic, personal, and caustic they sounded. (Karl Barth Simpson said: “It wasn’t the content, but it was the objectification of it…seeing outside of myself and my own situation. At the end of the day I believe it was is simply just not Christ-like nor Pauline.
While Paul may agree with all of it, (or at least some of it), I believe he would have to say NO to it for the simple reason that it seems to flow out of a heart-position that is not whole, healthy and filled with ‘joy’! If Paul was blogging at City Business Church he may say some of the same things…but, I think it wouldn’t feel the way most of the entries feel.”)
KBS:
I have had the same reaction as you have, and I’ve commented on it in several of my previous posts. IMO, you are spot on with what you say about what our attitude should be, even if it is at times, a difficult one to maintain, and, “ay, (to quote the Bard’s Hamlet — out-of-context, BTW — as did FICM in another thread) there’s the rub,” isn’t it? That is, maintaining the fine line between the ability to recognize that something may be wrong, erroneous, or in excess, etc., without letting it infect our “attitude” with the same. I confess that in my youth, the line was usually blurred, and I had a hard time separating the two.
This is, I think, the danger that Solomon courted, alluded to in Ecc. 7:25b, and which ultimately served to bring about (one of) his downfall(s).
joebib
Its not that I disagree with most of what is said (albeit the tithing argument, or should I say ‘non-tithing’ argument is somewhat laughable in light of God’s unchanging nature, character, and ‘ways’…but I digress), its just that I am often reminded of the Lord’s warning to Judah after Israel was judged to not get happy about their fall.
At the end of the day what is occuring in the IC is a ‘candlestick removing’ judgment of the Lord and those with ‘ears to hear’ ought to really ‘hear’ more and ‘say less’. What I mean by ‘say less’ is not that we do not speak for truth, against corruption, etc., but that it flow out of an accurate heart position that is rooted in absolute love for the Brethren, the Bride, and the Body of Christ.
It is interesting that the roots of Bible Temple (and thus MFI) lie in the Latter Rain Movement (and even deeper the Pentecostal Movement) which carried the message that the Church of their day was corrupt, institutionalized, money-hungry, etc. In fact, that/our movement was continually criticized for being too critical of the status quo church/preachers of the day.
At the end of the day its quite a sad day to see the sun setting on a powerful movement that shaped many in their morning and noon hours.
[Comment ID #26987 Will Be Quoted Here]
KBS:
All that you talked about and described here were shared by me and my family thru the years. The transformation of Bible Temple into what it has become ranks right up on top of my list of the biggest heartbreaks and dissappointments of my entire life.
I (we) do attend church somewhere else but cannot allow myself to get close enough to bond with the leadership. Everything that goes on around us must be scrutinized and approached with caution or not al all. Quite a mark for a cbc like place to leave on anyone. Oh, what a testimony, huh!
BeenThere:
Diddo, Diddo, Diddo!!
I pretty much don’t attend CBC anymore (occassionally for easter, mothers day,etc), and I still haven’t found another church to go to because I am afraid I will have the same experience that I did at CBC. I am slowly getting over it and trying to make myself “try” other places, but my heart actually starts pounding harder at the mere thought of becoming part of a “community” of another church.
May I suggest one of the following churches:
Imago Dei Community Church
The Well Community Church
or perhaps The Evergreen Community
From what I hear, these churches are full of real people with real problems…just like you and me. That sounds rather refreshing doesn’t it?
Yes, Imago Dei is actually at the top of my list…the only thing that made me hesitate was its size (I’ve only heard that it’s big, I haven’t actually seen it). But I will probably check it out anyway. Thanks RP.
(pleasedreader said: “BeenThere: Diddo, Diddo, Diddo!!”)
When’s her new CD due for release? Oh, wait….
joebib
I’m curious about Mr. Harris’ church background: Did he used to attend BT/CBC before he started his home church and eventually h.o.f.c.c.? His teachings are the same stuff he’s touted all along (working for another person’s business = bad; working for self = biblical — all the while enjoying free work from his devoted volunteers), but now he’s advocating some other guy’s mantra about the ‘homeschool visionary daughters’ concept (stay-at-home daughters, promoted by Vision Forum/Phillips/Botkins).
When he’s asked pointedly about what he believes, after you’ve heard his statements from his own mouth from pulpits/seminars, he just tells you you’ve misunderstood him. He’ll even backpeddle and say he doesn’t believe that way anymore, but he’ll say it again at a later time. Did all these “leaders” take LSD or something in the ’60′s and that’s why their brains are fried?
Awesome stuff Pope…glad to hear you are turning over a new leaf. I left BT/CBC a lot sooner than you did and said “to hell with them” a long time ago. However, I must say that this blog is still great therapy. Although it started with a focus on CBC it needs to continue to call out ALL churches for their corrupt ways. I’ve been in Southern California for 5 years and been to at least 15 churches. They preach the same garbage down here that they do up there. This blog has been the only thing that I have seen (besides some 20/20 or Dateline news specials) that has questioned what these so called “Christian” leaders are doing. So although I have never been a huge fan of defending the blog, I believe in truth and justice and what places like CBC are doing to good-hearted people is despicable. The public has to continue to call them out for their wrongdoings.
On another note, I am taking the Oregon Bar this summer to become a licensed attorney up there in Portland. Cat knows who I am. If you all need some representation look me up.