Monthly Archives: June 2007

Altar Calls

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From FormerACCmember:

Is the TRUE Gospel message given during most MFI altar calls

I wonder about this. The general understanding most of us have (I'm guessing) of the Gospel is:

1. You are a sinner and you fall short of God's standards…you are under His Wrath.

2. There's no way you can ever be "good enough" through doing good works to earn God's favor. There is no way that the good things you do could ever outweigh the bad enough to "tip the scale" in your favor.

3. You EARN punishment for your sins (Wages of sin is DEATH).

4. Your payment for your sin is death…eternal separation from God in hell.

5. The GOOD news: Jesus, God in human flesh, paid the penalty of your sin by dying on the cross.

6. Furthermore, he conquered death by his resurrection from the grave.

7. If you accept what He did on the cross, receive Him as your Savior, and repent (have a change of mind and a willingness to turn from) your sins, you will be saved from the penalty of death and will live forever in the glorious place prepared for you with Him in Heaven. It doesn't mean you will be perfect here on earth. You will still mess up, and He forgives you because His blood covers ALL your sin!

Okay, that's what I assume most folks will agree on. In my past experience at an MFI affiliate, this message in its entirety is rarely presented. The altar call is usually at the end of the service and is topical…related to the sermon of the day(which, admittedly, were often good and relevant to holy living, but sometimes full of the prosperity ick).

Suppose the message was on a marriage. The altar call might go: " A first and foundational requirement for a good marriage is to have Jesus Christ as
the Lord of your life. You will never have a good marriage without Him. If you would like to receive Christ as your Savior, then please raise your hand/come down to front."

Maybe I'm nit-picking…but is that REALLY the Gospel? Yes, Jesus can heal marriages. But receiving Him as your "fixer-upper" isn't the same as
realizing you are a lost sinner in need of a Savior. Thoughts on this?

Going to Church to Watch TV

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A weekly alternative newspaper in Seattle called The Stranger reviewed 20 churches in Seattle.  Here are their thoughts on the City Church.

City Church, Belltown

2700 First Ave

Sunday services: 9:30 am, 11:30 am

www.thecity.org

How do you run a four-campus megachurch with just two pastors? Hold one service and simulcast the video at all the others.

That's the operating principle behind City Church, which has campuses in Belltown, University District, Issaquah, and Kirkland. Every Sunday, in other words, City Church's thousands of members get together… to watch TV.

This can, for obvious reasons, be disorienting for a newcomer. At Sunday's 11:30 a.m. Belltown service, it took me a few minutes to figure out that the woman onscreen (Pastor Gini, a slim blonde in a hot-pink suit with white piping) was not, in fact, in the room. Weirder still, the virtual pastors could see their audiences around the city. As in watch on monitors. As in, "Stand up, Belltown! I can see you!"

Like many megachurches, City Church's canon is Fundamentalist and dogmatic. They believe Adam and Eve existed, literally; they think God created the world in seven days around 6,000 years ago; they think Satan is real and lives in a fiery place called Hell; and you can probably guess how they feel about the gays.

City Church's Fundamentalism, however, probably isn't the reason most of its members have chosen to go there. It's a friendly, laid-back, nonchurchy environment (no band; no organ; and certainly no icky crucifixes)—the kind of church, in other words, popular among urban youth. When Pastor Judah, a beaming thirtysomething with heavily styled hair and hipsterish horn-rimmed glasses, made a particularly salient point (this Sunday's sermon was about Saul, who drew the wrath of God when he saved the spoils of battle to sacrifice instead of destroying them) half the room raised their right hands (yeah, like that) and shouted. "Come on, come on!" "Tell it!" "That's right!"

City Church is thus the ultimate intersection of religion and technology: A closed feedback loop between pastor and flock.

A much kinder review than this blog has ever given.

(Tip of the cap to vacationing Chris Snethen.)

Reverse Missionaries

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In an odd reversal, missionaries from poor counties are traveling to wealthy Europe to establish churches.

For centuries, when Europe was the global center of Christianity, millions of European missionaries traveled to other continents to spread their faith by establishing schools and churches. Now, with European church attendance at all-time lows and a dearth of preachers in the pulpits, thousands of "reverse missionaries" are flocking back, migrating from poor countries to rich ones to preach the Gospel where it has fallen out of fashion.

And why is it so popular in many European countries like Denmark:  

"There was no judging, no doomsday talk," Johansen said. "Ravi made it fun and practical. He was preaching ordinary stuff that everybody needs, not things that happened 2,000 years ago. He brought the Gospel to a level where it fit my life."

It's really that simple. Meet people where they are, not where you want them to be.

Paying to Pray

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A new website has been established by the International House of Prayer and God TV, called The Prayer Room. The site allows a person to join in prayer over the web anytime of the day.

And, as luck would have it, the organizers of The Prayer Room are offering a free three day trial.

We want to invite you to become one of the thousands that believe with us that God’s agenda includes Global Intercession. This includes touching those in secluded parts of the world with a stream of anointing. With this tool, which was once unknown and hidden is now open to all, the poor and hungry of the Earth.

As a special gift, we are offering a FREE TRIAL to our new High Quality webstream. We trust you will be blessed and encouraged as you join with us and thousands of others around the world, in Day and Night prayer.
 
Until He Comes,

Mike Bickle And Rory Alec

I suspect that when He comes, He is going to be pissed that Bickle and Alec were using His name to charge the poor to pray.

Christ and Him Crucified

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Raised from childhood in a mainline church, I heard all about the patriarchs. The stories of David and Goliath, Jonah and the whale, amused me. There wasn't anything we couldn't make out of popsicle sticks, craft paper and plaster of paris. Somewhere along the line, I learned that God was a harsh judge, sending punishment on people who were bad. Whether the concept of an angry and punishing God was expressly taught, I don't know, it's just the impression I was left with after several years of elementary Sunday School. Every time I got in trouble in public school or at home, I faced the consequences, but shrunk from the thought that God might be angry with me too. There were long periods in growing up where it seems like the only time I ever heard my name, was when an adult was summoning me to scold or punish me.

I was born with a heart defect. No, not a physical defect, but a wound to my very being that somehow prevented me from receiving the love of others. Mom wrote about it in my baby book – how I did not like to be held, kissed, refused to suckle, or receive any other sign of affection, and in later years I always downplayed anyones expression of love for me. From somewhere, condemnation was ringing in my ears which denied me the love and care of others.

If I could describe my first 40 years in a single word, it would be loneliness.

Despite my heart defect, I was blessed with a beautiful praying wife, who knew her husband well and by the Holy Spirit had discernment how to pray for me. Several years ago, we went to a conference and during a time of intercession, she was face down on the floor praying for my healing. I felt nothing. In fact, feeling nothing describes my relationship with Jesus for 40 years – except for the vicious cycle of feeling condemnation and guilt followed by forgivness and relief. Feeling loved by the Lord was unknown to me.

I joined Karen on the floor in prayer, face down, pounding on the floor with my fist, where I remember praying "I am NOT leaving without what I came for." The person at the microphone said "come to the cross" and at once I found myself in a waking vision, lying on my face at the foot of the cross. With the tips of my fingers, I reached out and felt the rough sawn beam, darkened from age, stained from use. I felt my way up the cross, following with my eyes, until I saw that which shattered my heart like a hammer: feet, nail pierced, broken and mangled, bloodied and filthy. A consuming weeping came over me and I cried out in Spirit "they're broken … broken …". I held the feet and was overcome with grief at their gruesome sight, when a pair of strong hands took hold of me from beneath my arms and lifted me up until I was looking directly into the face of the Crucified Christ. There was no mistaking the look in His eyes: it was love. He uttered just 2 words, which in an instant, healed my heart defect: FOR YOU.

How I regret those times, where like the soldiers, I have ignored the crucified Christ and instead contended with others over His garments. How shall we dress our personal Christ? Who shall wear His garments? How I wish I would find myself back there, at the foot of the cross, to know better the crucified Christ who endured such misery, for me.

Sam

A needed break

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I've decided to take a break…I think you get religion points if you call it a "fast" so lets do that…

I've decided to "fast" from this blog for a couple of weeks. I've taken a fair amount of criticism over the past couple of weeks (thank you MMI) and while none of it has convicted me to STOP blogging, it has given me a few things to think about…I mean pray about. The first question would be "Is the blog an Idol to me" and the second is "What responsibility do I have in regard to the gossip that happens here?"

I have been praying about this rather heavily for the last few weeks and don't feel God has said anything to me in regard to it. While I think this blog has done some wonderful things over the past 2-3 years I want to be sure that I haven't gotten so involved that I can't see the truth of what is happening.

I felt the best way to do this was to take a short break, read up what on what the Bible has to say about Blogging (should be a good post when I get back), and see if I hear God give me any direction.

Ok, As I am writing this, I just pulled up the comments on our site and saw that Phil had this to say:

I hope you keep this blog going!

That's funny…many people would take that as a sign from God…but I see it for what it is…a sign from Phil. Thanks Phil, I'll let you know what I come up with in 2 weeks.

But before I go, I did want to reiterate a solid comment that was brought up earlier by FICM in regard to CBC/MFI's emphatic teaching on Tithe:

Is there any definitive works or books on the subject available from CBC or MFI related churches? Is there some book or document that spells out what they believe on the topic? You'd think that something so fundamental to the way they run things would be their biggest seller at their bookstore. If they are truly convinced of what they believe, shouldn't it be easily available to the public? But I only find hints of it in their book titles. Does anyone know which of their books is the best one on the subject? I'd gladly buy it just to see how they justify it. JP, I know you've had many conversations and emails with the leaders at CBC – did they ever give you any materials to reference?

It seems strange to me that for someone who went there for over a decade I couldn't point someone to book or leaflet on the tithe.

I hadn't thought of that before, but I think it is a valid point…for all the preaching they do on tithe and with all the books they write you would think it would be easy for us to find something spelling out what they believe…but we can't and they don't…Anyone want to take a stab at why?

Does the Bible contain any errors? A dialogue…

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joebibstudent recently asked some very excellent questions about the subject of biblical inerrancy (see: "Seminary. Schmeminary."). As most know, biblical inerrancy is the belief that the Bible does not contain any errors including errors in the areas of science and history  ("in-" = without;  "errancy" = error).  Reformed Pope asked joebibstudent some very excellent questions that are also very well worth reading. Since I do not personally have the time to respond to each of joe's points myself, I sent some of joe's comments to a good friend of mine, Paul Seely, and wanted to share his responses to joe with all of you on the blog: 

joebibstudent: “If certain portions of the O.T. seem to possess higher moral relevance than others, that is something which should come as no surprise when we recognize that much of what was written therein was for time-specific, nationalistic, politico-historical circumstances.”
 
Paul Seely: So, these portions were inerrant but only for their own times. They are not  authoritative for us?  If not, how do you decide which are authoritative for us and which are authoritative only for their own times? 
 
joebibstudent: “Consider this, Dave, et al. Once you¹ve undermined the authority of God¹s Word by denying inerrancy, how do you know what to accept? I mean, what is true and what is false in the Bible? Where do you start? And more importantly, where do you stop?”
 
Paul Seely: Are your interpretations of God’s word inerrant?  If not, how do you know which interpretation to believe? Do you accept the Bible’s teaching that you should not wear a garment made of two different kinds of cloth (Lev 19:19). (Check the labels on  your clothes.)  If not, how do you know which other prohibitions in the Bible have no authority? Where do you start to separate those that have authority from those that do not?  Where do you stop? (The NT never negates Lev 19:19.)  
 
joebibstudent: “So what if some of the data — be it scientific, historical, herbalogical, astronomical, or archeological — doesn¹t add up to my fallen reasoning? I¹m prepared to take those points by faith, and commit all the problem passages, the seeming injustices, all of my questions and doubts, and what I don¹t know yet to the all-wise Creator Who will fill me in on all of it in that day when I no longer see things dimly through a glass (cf. Deut. 29:29).”
 
Paul Seely: Your doctrine of the absolute inerrancy of Scripture is not stated explicitly in Scripture. You can only get to it by employing your fallen reasoning.  
 
Further, it is not a question of scientific data not adding up to your fallen reasoning. If you are going to obey God, you must “Test all things “( I Thess 5:21, 22) This is the NT counterpart of the OT Deut 18:21, 22, which says if a person claims to have a revelation from God, you should compare the outcome of that claimed revelation to the empirical facts. (God is assuming in this passage that your “fallen reason” is adequately reliable to tell if the claimed revelation matches or is falsified by the empirical data.) If the claimed revelation does not match the empirical facts, it is NOT a revelation from God. 

Inerrancy & the Flood:
If you test the global Flood of Gen 6-9 by the empirical data, it is clear that if this claimed flood is dated anytime in the last 10,000 years, geology shows no evidence of such a Flood. Archaeology shows that many peoples around the world lived right through it—even in Mesopotamia. There are a number of other scientific data which falsify the claim that this Flood is a divine revelation. 

When you compare the biblical story of the Flood to the Mesopotamian stories, the theology in Gen 6-9 contradicts the theology in the Mesopotamian stories, and it agrees with the overall teaching of the New Testament. A Christian has every right to accept the theology as divine revelation, and every responsibility to reject the history because the empirical data falsify it. The history as such is the divinely accommodated “history of the times,” but according to the biblical test, it is not a revelation from God, and therefore not inerrant.

 
By refusing to test such things as the story of the Flood by the empirical data, “conservative” (conserving the tradition of the elders) Christians disobey God and have wound up in an imaginary world that brings no glory to God because it is a flight from reality. And when the children who are taught this extraordinary imaginary science discover via learning geology or anthropology or archaeology or glaciology or oceanography or some other science that this supposedly inerrant science is false, their faith will indeed be stumbled and even unto perishing.   
 
  
   

A Tithe Reply

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So…to sum up everything I've heard from Havis regarding our need to tithe it would be this (Havis or anyone, correct me if I am misinterpreting things):

1. Abram (soon to be Abraham) gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek (Gen 14:18)

2. Then some time later God makes a Covenant with Abraham and his seed(Gen 17 & Gen 18:19)

3. Then we find out in that Jesus is like Melchizedek (Hebrews 7)

Therefore since Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and since Jesus is Like Melchizedek and since we are the Seed of Abraham we are required to Tithe.

Now, if you don't think about any of this it actually sounds really good. Plus when you throw in a little bit of guilt ("Most people who argue with the Tithe are Greedy") and then a bit of manipulation ("95% of all churches teach the Tithe this way") it can really be hard to stand up to.

The problem is, when you decide to look closer, there are so many gaps that have to be filled in to make this all work. For instance:

Abram gave a tenth of the spoils of war to Melchizedek

  • 1) Abram…he wasn't even named Abraham yet
  • 2) Gave a tenth…No where does it say it was commanded
  • 3) Of the spoils of war…not of his crops or his possessions, but of spoils
  • 4) Abram gave the other 90% to Sodom (who has his city burned for being so sinful a short time later)

Then God makes a Covenant with Abram and his seed

  • 1) This Covenant did not happen directly after Abram gave to Melchi.
  • 2) This Covenant was all about Circumcision
  • 3) No where does it mention Tithing during the Covenant
  • 4) In between the time of Abram giving to Melchi. (Gen 14:18) and God making the covenant (Gen 17) we have Gen 15:9:

So the LORD said to him, "Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon."

So…it appears to me that it is quite a stretch to take Abram giving something Melchi and attach it to a covenant that has nothing to do with tithe 3 chapter later all the while ignoring all the instruction from the Lord in between. Furthermore this does nothing to discuss the fact that we have to take "giving to Melchi" and turn that into "giving to the church"…we have to take giving spoils of war and turn it into giving our income…all the while also ignoring all the other scriptures about the law of tithing in the Bible that the church doesn't want you to follow (Lev 27:31, Dut 14:28, Numbers 18:26-32, etc.)

Giving 10% is great. I fully support people giving 10% to the church, just so long as it is "not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

I think we've beat this thread to death, but what the heck: Havis can you show me how to connect Melchi to the Covenant thus requiring us to tithe?

One last thing before I go, Havis you mentioned that "Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the everlasting covenant." What then do you say to 1 Corinthians 7:19?

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Based solely on what you have said and this scripture I would have to come to the conclusion that Tithing is nothing and Not Tithing is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

I expect Havis to ignore me, that's usually what happens when you back someone into the corner.

10 Good Reasons to Tithe

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  1. Frank had to wear the same suit 2 Sunday's in a row.
  2. God promised to save 1000 souls IF we upgrade to High Definition Jumbotrons.
  3. Now that we're in NY and DC, we're opening a campus in Zurich.
  4. The franchise fee for Starbuck's has doubled in the last year.
  5. The boob church needs a roofectomy.
  6. With the expansion to other countries we need our own satellite.
  7. And a rocket to launch it.
  8. It takes a lot of clams to buy so many yes-men.
  9. Gini needs to see a podiatrist.
  10. We want to send Judah to finishing school.