Monthly Archives: June 2007

A defense of the tithe.

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So, Havis responded (by email) to a comment he recieved from Craig (I don't think he realized that it actually went to us and not Craig but whatever). This is what he has to say. For the record, I have not read it yet but it looks like he is trying to defend the tithe (I hope he does a good job). I'm going to bed now and tomorrow I will read it and let you know what i think. 

Craig:

You are right it is unchristlike for me to make those off the cuff remarks and they will cease immediately.   I do not care a whole lot what these non tithing bloggers think of me.   I do care for the wonderful ministries of PBC, CBC, MFI and Atlanta City Church.    For the future, I will refrain from making off the cuff remarks.

Gen 9-14 God continued to Abraham, "And you: You will honor my covenant, you and your descendants, generation after generation. This is the covenant that you are to honor, the covenant that pulls in all your descendants: Circumcise every male. Circumcise by cutting off the foreskin of the penis; it will be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male baby will be circumcised when he is eight days old, generation after generationâ€"this includes house-born slaves and slaves bought from outsiders who are not blood kin. Make sure you circumcise both your own children and anyone brought in from the outside. That way my covenant will be cut into your body, a permanent mark of my permanent covenant. An uncircumcised male, one who has not had the foreskin of his penis cut off, will be cut off from his peopleâ€"he has broken my covenant."

Abraham is a precursor not only for his natural seed but also for his spiritual seed.

The Messae:  Gal 3:8  A will, earlier ratified by God, is not annulled by an addendum attached 430 years later, thereby negating the promise of the will. No, this addendum, with its instructions and regulations, has nothing to do with the promised inheritance in the will.

Gal 3:28 & 29   In Christ's family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ's family, then you are Abraham's famous "descendant," heirs according to the covenant promises.

Eph 2: 11.  Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)– 12.  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13.  But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14.  For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15.  by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

What is ment by foreigners to the covenants of promise

Forget about the law and look at tithing from a covenant standpoint. Tithing was always a part of Abraham's Covenant relationsghip with God and he pased it on to his seed

Ge 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

If the tithe of Abrahan to Melchizedek was a single incident and it was never to be repeated how did Jacob the grandson of Abraham come the the knowlwdge of tithing.

As for your question concerning Circumcision

Quoting Craig: My question is, if we are not required to circumcise and perform animal sacrifices (like Abraham did for His faith covenant 400 years before the law), why would we continue with the tithe?

We are not require to sacrifice animals because Jesus fulfilled the law of animal sacrifice.  He was the one time perfect sacrifice.

Ge 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Both tithing and circumcision do not have their roots in the law but in the everlasting covenant.

Circuncision is a N T truth if you understand that the O T act of physical circumcision was Abraham's precursor for N T heart circumcision.

Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

According to Paul in I Collosians 2:10.  and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
11.  in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
12.  having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

The covenant of circumcision has been invoked upon us through the act of water baptism.  (circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, having been buried with him in baptism,  also raised with him through faith.

If you are sincere in receiving the truth of tithing you must look at the covenants of promiase and not at the law.

The real issue in the O T was not penile circumcision but heart circuncison. It is the forehin of the heart that separates us from God.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Both tithing and circumcision are not law issues the are covenant issues.

What If

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Frank Damazio just wrapped up his sermon series titled "Windows: Heavens Treasures". As with all good sermon series these days, each one had a catchy title that began with the letter P…I am amazed at how God is constantly using alliteration to speak to today's pastors, who knew He was so clever… The 5 P's were: Provision, Presence, Providence, Preview, and Promotion.  I blogged about the first few sermons here.

After listening to all 7 sermons I realized that I had heard these same ideas before, in fact I was actually able to find a video of them posted on You-Tube…check this out, it's a real short (30 second) clip and then we can continue. Btw, I just took hours of preaching and boiled it down to one 30 second commercial (I should get paid for this, but I don't. I offer it as a free service).

This is basically what PF's whole series boiled down to…What IF? In each of his sermons he told you what could happen IF you would just "throw open the Windows of Heaven" …

Quick Side Note Here: For all you CBC supporters out there, are any of you willing to come to the defense of your Pastor for the fact that he spent 7 weeks preaching on ½ of a verse? ½ of a verse? Now I don't know a ton about proper hermeneutics, but I'm pretty sure that's a no-no. He  used ½ of Malachi 3:10 which, nicely enough, says exactly what it is that he wants to preach about…throwing open the windows of Heaven…He reads that part of the scripture and then goes on to tell you what HE thinks about it…for 7 weeks. Can you see why I would be concerned with this?

According to Frank, if you "throw open the Windows of Heaven:" then God will essentially bless you. But my question is How? No, not how will he bless me, how do I throw open those windows? After listening to all 7 sermons I honestly couldn't tell you. The one and only point that I can recall Frank making is to give money to the church (naturally). Other than that there wasn't any substance. He did have everyone pray that the windows would open above their life and he also had people act out opening the pretend window right above their heads (I've been learning about Word Faith teachers lately (thanks Craig) and I think PF might be one…actually he's  more of a "Charade Faith" teacher…you know…with the Funnels and Tunnels and now the Windows and stuff…I'll have to think about that some more). My point is, he might as well had people running out and buying Powerball tickets…

But hey, now that a few CBC'ers are starting to come out of the woodwork, does anyone want to tell me what they got out of the series? Despite our sarcasm here, I really am curious to hear if people actually received…no… learned something (anything).

Another tangent:

Do you notice how a lot of churches push "receiving' something as opposed to "learning" something? You can "receive" a warm fuzzy feeling, but that doesn't really mean anything. My question: What did you learn?

Anyway, if anyone else wants to chime in on "What If", I'd love to hear. By the way, when I finally figure out how to "throw open the windows of heaven" I'm getting a pet elephant.

Long Live the Blog for God!

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Have you ever thought about the blogosphere and the sovereignty of God? Even though we may use the blogosphere imperfectly at times, and even though we may be still learning how to express ourselves on it with love and compassion, could it be that God is fed up with the many senior pastors and preachers who have isolated and insulated themselves from genuine accountability, true team ministry, and constructive input from God’s people? Could it be that by having the power to hire and fire their staff at will, and, thereby, surround themselves with a group of Yes Men who are too afraid of losing their jobs to confront them, and ignoring the wants, questions and needs of God’s people in the congregation, that God has said, “Enough is enough!?”

Is it possible that God has given the blogosphere to his people so as to give them a tool that they can do an “end run” around such totalitarian control, personal gain and cover-ups done “in the name of the Lord?”  Is is possible that God is sick of those senior leaders and preachers that have forgotten that they are not to live as “lords over God's heritage, but as [good] examples to the flock” of love, humility and a moderate lifestyle (I Peter 5:3; I Timothy 4:12 cf. Matthew 20:25)?! Could it be that the men and women who have left behind their calling to be “servants of all” (I Corinthians 9:19; Matthew 20:26-28), and have, instead, chosen to exploit God’s people to support their lifestyles as kings are now going to be called into public account through the same technology by which they sell their own churches, ministries, sermons, books and CDs to the public?  

Might it be that God himself is using such technology not just as a small mouse inside the castle wall but as a lion who will roar – and roar again and again – until the castle walls come tumbling down and truth, honesty, freedom, humility, and transparency are again earmarks of God’s leaders? If used properly, the blogosphere can help to confront the pulpit-kings, who have barricaded themselves like Medieval rulers in their high towers, intimidating and controlling believers from behind closed doors. 

If I'm not mistaken, we will be seeing more and more pastors come out against such blogs, particularly the blogging of their own church members. Nevertheless, the blogosphere can help to decrease the power and effectiveness of leader-kings, which, at times, tend to be distorting the “God’s Word” in order to cast spells of personal agendas over God’s people, turning the Gospel Pulpit into a weekly propaganda machine. The blogosphere is here to stay. There are “nearly 60 million blogs…online” (discovermagazine.com). Even if we may stumble as Christians in our attempts at first to use this new information technology, may we use this new tool of freedom and expression daily, powerfully, and wisely! 

Long live the Blog for God!
P.S. Fortunately, not all Christian leaders fit the above descriptions! 

A God-fearing Stripper

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Our favorite Portland newspaper, Willamette Week, has a fun article that analzyes the lives of two Portland strippers, Zoe and Matilda.

Zoe's life is of particular interest. She volunteers at her church Living Hope and first started stripping as a way to pay for her highschool graduation.

The day she found out about graduation dues, she drove aimlessly around Portland, where she kept an apartment in her 1973 Mercedes convertible, which she'd emptied her savings account to buy. A regular churchgoer, she remembers asking God for guidance. Then she drove by the Sugar Shack, a strip club in Northeast Portland that she says would later come under fire for dancers pulling "extras" with customers.

If you read the whole article, you understand how Zoe got into stripping. It hasn't exactly been a picture perfect life. But her Faith seems genuine.

But she does feel conflicted at times: "I work Saturday night, get a couple hours of sleep, and get up and go to church all day Sunday. And there are times when I'm sitting at church and I hear things that make me feel it would be nice to find another way to make money.

"God paid for us with his son's blood, so we measure value by what someone is willing to pay for something, whether it's materialistic or human flesh or whatever. And it's easy to do that when you're a dancer, to put value on what other people are willing to pay you. If you have a bad night, it's easy to walk away feeling empty, whereas my morals tell me I shouldn't get my values from my job but from God."

Jesus Walks with her.

Doctrinetalk.com Again

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I finally got around to adding Doctrinetalk.com to our blogroll. I know I wrote about it earlier, but I wanted to once again suggest that everyone check it out. It's just like us…without all the bitterness.

Craig has some great insight and I think you will enjoy reading he has to say.  

In Defense of Attending City Bible

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A reader comments:

I am still in the system (CBC member and faithful attendee).

The reason why I read and join with this blog, because I want to be an open-minded christian.

There are so many things that I disagree with CBC, with the leaders, with their ideas & teachings, with church politics, etc. Once, I went to a district pastor and discussed about these issues. And I expressed to her that I actually have been praying for the past 5 years if I should leave CBC, but I never received any confirmation in my heart that I should dismember myself from CBC.

I understood that my dissatisfaction of the church will not be a valid reason to leave the church, I knew that if dissatisfaction was the main reason to leave a church, then I will always find dissatisfaction in other churches as well.

To me sticking with CBC is not a matter of loyalty to an establishment or to its leaders, but it's more like practicing of my personal conviction, and being an "individual" rather than a "group".

I have to thank LT, Larry Asplund and Ken Ross They are inspirational people, thanks for your dedication at PBC and allowing students to think for themselves and giving so much room to grow instead of dictating them what to do and what to believe.

I also appreciate this blog, for helping us to be real, honest and courageous to face the fact that we are all human, and we are in need of His grace.

Interesting. 

I tend to think that by attending CBC, you are implicity supporting their "prosperity doctrine". But I appreciate the ability to think for yourself and that's about the most I can hope for.

That said, I think dissatisfaction is a perfectly good reason for leaving a church. The whole, "you willl always find something wrong in a church" mantra,  is just a manipulation tool used by "bad" churches to keep you from leaving.

Judah Smith’s Mistaken Love

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Teapot,

Per your request, I listened to Judah Smith's sermon titled "Mistaken Love" and will now share my thoughts:

It was way, way, way too long. You failed to mention that it was an hour plus sermon…and I also would have appreciated you mentioning that I could skip the first 20 minutes of it because he didn't have a single useful thing to say during that time.

He did however mention that everyone should enjoy when his wife speaks because she is so good to look at every single minute. Now Judah, I understand what you are trying to do here which is compliment your wife (a wise thing to do, albeit slightly over done by EVERY SINGLE YOUTH PASTOR IN AMERICA), the problem is that you also spend so much time preaching on purity that it seems slightly odd you would encourage young people to check out your wife. I realize this was not his intention, but still…it left me wondering.

Mistaken Love is the appropriate title for this sermon. In it Judah tried very hard (and very long) to tell us why it is important to "be good" because we love God and each other, and NOT because we have to. This, in itself, can be a great and powerful sermon. I really wish I could say that Judah got this right. Unfortunately, this was probably the most disturbing sermon I have heard in quite awhile.

Judah starts by discounting "grace" in saying that so many of his youth think "Grace is Grease…it can get you out of anything" and then goes into the reason we NEED to be so good is out of love for God (and by goes into, I mean takes 45 minutes talking about seemingly nothing before getting to his point…lots of stories…lots of voices…I still love his voices).

Judah is right, we should "Be Good" because of our love for God, but he fails to tell us WHY we should love God. Which is because He sent His Son to die on the Cross bearing our sins, so that when we screw up…and we all screw up…we don't have to suffer the consequences of our sins (hell) because Jesus covered them for us. And on top of it all He doesn't demand anything from us other than belief in Him, because He knows we can't handle it…you see the real point should have been: WE CAN"T BE GOOD ENOUGH…but we don't have to be, Grace really is Grease. It really will get you through all your mess ups. That is a powerful message.

But Judah doesn't seem to want to talk about the Grace of God and I would guess that could be because of one or two reasons:

One:

Judah doesn't really understand the Gospel of Jesus and despite the fact that he could spout off the same things I have just said, it isn't real to him (I lived this way for many many years. It's one of the reasons I blog). He knows Jesus saved him, but he still needs to "do the right thing" so that he can feel worthy of the Love of God. Judah, Jesus loves you, regardless of anything you might do. He will always love you, and you know what? HE died for you, while you were still a sinner. He didn't wait for you to change, He didn't dangle salvation in front of you like a carrot; baiting you to be good so that you could earn His love, NO. He just loves you.

or Two:

Judah is afraid that if he preached the true Gospel that everyone would realize it has nothing to do with how much you read your Bible, how much you Pray, how big your youth group is, how many conferences you get invited to…we are all the exact same: SINNERS. And damn it Judah, there is only one thing we can do about it. Accept the gift that Christ offers. (Judah, by the way, tells everyone these same things…but yet he still misses the point)

Judah may realize that being a "Holy Man of God", like he so often claims to be, doesn't mean anything. Judah is a sinner just like the rest of us (it only takes one sin to be a sinner). The true Gospel is offensive, it tells us that God was the one who chose us and we had nothing to do with it. It makes us powerless, despite what we may want to do, despite how good we may act, despite how many times we shower, it is entirely up to God. God chose me just like God chose Judah…it is very humbling, imho.

Judah completely misses the point in the 1 hour and 10 minutes of preaching where he is real close yet so far away. He ends by listing things he doesn't do, which to no one's surprise were: Going to R-Rated movies, Drinking, and Whistling at Pretty Girls as they walk by (he seriously used that as an example). He claims to do all these things because he: loves God, loves his wife, loves people, and loves little Billy.

Ah yes, little Billy. Judah used Billy in 2 of the 3 examples: Imagine if little Billy sees you walking out of an R-Rated movie. Maybe God has released you to see R-Rated movies, maybe the sex in movies has no effect on you, but imaging walking out and seeing little Billy (who's dad got him hooked on porn at the age of 11). What are you going to say to little Billy? See you on Sunday?

Also, Judah doesn't drink. You may call that legalistic (personally I prefer to call it religious, but whatever) but Judah says it's holy. And it's because he loves little Billy. Here, as best as I can remember it, is what Judah had to say about drinking (to be read in your best southern accent):

"People say to me, Judah, Why don't you drink? Jesus turned water into wine and you've been trying to turn it back to water ever since. Well I say…Shut up… Shut up."

"People say, Judah, is it ever Miller time for you? Is ‘this Bud' ever for you? And I say NO, because what happens when little Billy comes over. What do I tell him? Billy, do you want to try some Budwiser? Would you like some Miller time?"

Honestly, this sermon was the most religious – non religious sermon I have ever heard. Judah just doesn't quite get it and sadly I imagine there were a number of young teens listening that thought he had nailed it. Now all they have to do is figure out how to love God.

To sum up, Mistaken Love left this reviewer…cold.

Your Monday Morning Bitterness

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The blog Monday Morning Insight has linked to David's recent post and offers the following analysis:

Repent, Pastor Frank! 
I agree with Perry Noble when he says that he doesn’t pay attention to his blog critics; but what if the blog in question is one that is specifically set up to bring down your church and your ministry?  How should you respond.  Case in point. What would you do if you were Pastor Frank?  Ignore?  Confront?  This type of thing is starting to do major damage in many churches.  Don’t underestimate the power of the rouge blogger.  (By the way, I don’t know any of the situation of this church, or this blogger… I just use this as an instance to make you think about what you’d do if this type of thing happened in your church.

QUESTION:  If you were Pastor Frank, how would you respond?  Or would you at all?

The comments underneath the blog post are fantastic. As you all know, if you criticize the church, you are bitter and angry and hateful and kick puppies and root for the Lakers and like spam.

Repent, Pastor Randy! (name changed)

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vroom asked:

"What exactly do you think he [Pastor Randy (name changed)] should repent of?"

vroom, If I understand things accurately, I think that Pastor Randy should repent of:

(1) not telling his church that he does not believe in the same doctrine of biblical inerrancy posted on his own church's website (maybe he's changed his mind since he last talked with me and gave me that distinct impression);

(2) his unbiblical doctrine of the "Faith Harvest Offering" which makes Christians earn God's favor through financial offerings (the support for which one of Randy's staffers gave to Reformed Pope but still without a source even after receiving a request for it!);

(3) the false teaching of the mandatory tithe, which is not taught in the New Testament for believers;

(4) operating the local church like a one-man show, promoting himself, his ministry, his books, his CDs at the expense of others being overlooked – not operating a true team ministry;

(5) steering the local church's Bible college away from genuine academics by firing two of the most academically-oriented staffers; making it more of a pool of free volunteers to support his own vision; 
(6) forming an association for senior pastors and charging for their membership – which really should be a non-monetary and free fellowship of brothers in Christ;

(7) making too much money from the local church (reliable sources tell me he makes over $200,000/yr salary + benefits + guest speaking honorariums + royalties from his side business/ministry) 
(8) being the only one supported by the local church to have a retirement plan (per one of the elders of the church); who made this decision? the senior pastor? the elders? the people? 
(9) preaching too much about money and thus ignoring most of the other parts of the Bible; actively promoting the false gospel of financial prosperity;

(10) extending his own ministry via a simulcast network instead of sending out pastors to plant their own churches in those areas and "sharing the pulpit" with other men instead of being the continuing central focus and celebrity; continuing, with each simulcast campus extension, to be more aloof and removed from the people who pay his monthly bills; 
(11) turning the church into a high-tech theatre for Christian entertainment with the platform being the central focus of the drama rather than the people themselves who deserve to share the Word, prophesy, move in the gifts, carry each other's burdens, and pray for one another during the weekend services and not just in their marginalized, small groups. 

(P.S. Obviously, these points of concern can apply to many others in the ministry as well. Please let me know if I do not have any of my facts straight, and I will make it right. I plan to send this posting directly to Randy so that those who are concerned about me gossiping behind someone's back will have their concern addressed.)