"Guess who's back? Back again. Cotton's back. Tell a friend."
As some of you may recall, several months ago Doug Cotton was removed from his church Christian Life Fellowship on charges of abuse. Many of Mr. Cotton's parishoners felt he behaved in an inappropriate manner, and they convinced the elders of CLF to remove Cotton from his pastoral position.
Mr. Cotton felt wrongly ousted and went to Minister Fellowship International, asking for their help. Wendell Smith, who is the co-chairman of MFI, threatened to sue the church if they did not re-instate Mr. Cotton.
The elders balked, and a reader offers this insight into what happened next:
Subsquently, Wendell held a meeting with the CLF elders. During the meeting he asked the elders to trust him. When it was pointed out that he threatened to sue the church and the elders individually, he admitted his threats were a bluff.
Now, according to this same reader, MFI is going to re-instate Cotton in a new church in Gray's Harbor.
I don't have a problem with Doug Cotton starting another church. If he can convince people to follow him, than so be it.
I do, however, have a problem with MFI backing an abusive pastor over the church elders and its members. I am rather surprised that some ministers continue to maintain membership in MFI, an association that puts power over accountability. (Yeah, I'm talking about you Bob MacGregor).
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Will Doug Cotton be able to convince the residents of Gray's Harbor that he's changed? Will anyone in MFI ever stand-up to Wendell Smith?
Stay tuned.
That’s the beauty of MFI…they don’t work with churches, they only work with pastors. Who cares if one of their pastors is abusive, so long as he continues to pay his dues.
It’s like the Bible says: Loyalty and Money will cover a multitude of sins - Damazio 8:10 (and also found in the Gospel of Iverson).
[Comment ID #27065 Will Be Quoted Here]
I actually LOL’d.
A little competition is healthy for the body of Christ!
Why, I can hardly wait to hear what the local news paper will have to say about it!
Does this latest move have anything at all to do with the exaltation of Jesus Christ in / around Grays Harbor? Or is it just the exaltation of Doug Cotton and MFI?
Wow! I guess we now know what Wendell meant when he said the elders actions would ‘certainly cause a church split’! Now MFI is starting a new church with Mr. Cotton as pastor in the same small town. That looks like a split to me.
Well, maybe the silver lining here is that with SPWS’s boy back in a church in the Harbor, he’ll pony back up resources to help the poor, which he yanked previously. Yes, no?
I did not realize that MFI was in the business of starting churches.
Maybe SPWS having a fake doctorate enables him?????
[Comment ID #27065 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think the money comes from the general fund to pay the dues, so really the church is paying for the abusive MFI pastor in more ways than one, it appears.
By the way, has anyone looked at the MFI website and seen the fee structure that MFI charges monthly, a lot of money to pay for abuse.
This is at the bottom of the page of the MFI website under the bookstore link. And there is a DONATE NOW button you can push to start the process…
I hope this doesn’t take away from the tithes for CBC here
I wunner when we’ll see “Ousted Pastor RE-Ousted”?
On a different note…. on you-tube.. check out “cannonball baptism” it is too funny!!
I know you guys a really shocked by all this especially since it just happened to you .But you really should go back a few years( oh yeah it was all swept under the rug!) when Portland Bible Temple and DI got GB out of town and then put a gag order on us so we wouldn"t gossip. Was he really sleeping with all those women or was I just listening to a bad report? Or how about TH that DI never confronted about his inappropriate sexual behavior towards members of his congregation?Or how about DC and the harbor pastors association that handeled the RH and LD split. Did anyone ever confront L about his control issues. After attening there I now refer to it as Stepfordstone. Oh yeah the church that R started is still going he"s just not there anymore. He got out of town when people started to catch on that he was sleeping with of bunch of his female followers!Again we were told not to gossip or pass on an evil report. So nowCLF! I guess thery even put that in the newspaper again forgetting to tell us what the offenses are that DC commited. Again DI and MFI seem to be in the mix. The other pastors were just snuck out of town in the middle of the night but they are so sure of themselves they are bringing back to town to do it all over again with their blessing of course! The other Pastors just moved on to other innocent victims .Does anyone else see a pattern here or is it just me? Us dumb sheep are always the last ones to know and the last ones to go!
FWIW, I’d just as soon we not get into a discussion of the specific sins that specific pastors may have committed.
I’m allowing this comment, because it’s Rhema’s first. And because, I know firsthand that there are several instances of pastors covering up the for actions of their staff.
But if we’re going to discuss this issue, I’d rather it be about the larger issue of how Churches “cover up” for leadership, rather than the specific individual sins of individual pastors.
My 2 cents – I don’t think this kind of comment should be allowed. Unless these matters are public record, it’s just gossip (even if true) and something we should avoid.
Okay, well then maybe I’ll take it down. I wasn’t sure whether this crossed whatever hypothetical-constantly-moving line we have on this blog.
Catlyst, you’re getting soft. Let’s just change the specific names to protect the innocent (us).
I’m sorry, I must be taking this all wrong. I thought that most of the comments I’ve read were very specific regarding names (Wendell Smith, Dick Iverson, Frank Demazio, Doug Cotton) also churches (City Bible Church, CLf).It sounds to me like you guys are being very specific. How do I know that what your saying isn’t just gossip? (there’s that word again)Of course a lot of what I’m telling you isn’t public record because we were taught to handle these kinds of things within the church. That’s my whole point. Its still the good ole boys club burying the truth in the streets. In Doug Cottons defence I still don’t know what he’s really done. No one seems to want to make that public so the majority of us outside of the inner circle still don’t know what he’s really been accused of. I see you guys don’t have a problem putting his name out there.’ Where are his accusers? Maybe I’ve got an anger problem because this kind of crap is sure ticking me off! Are you guys for real or not.? Are you truth seekers or just playing games too? You’ve opened the can of worms down here on this Harbor. A lot of hurting people have been waiting for justice for years. MFI and Dick Iverson seem to be connected to it all. That is all I was trying to say.
Leave Rhema’s post up.
Did Rhema’s original post include names or just initials? The likelihood is that those people who know what the initials stand for already know the rumors/facts. The people who don’t already know the situations Rhema describes won’t be able to figure out who is who.
I think Rhema was trying to make the general point that for the past few decades there has really been a lack of good spiritual leadership in Grays Harbor. Doug Cotton’s leadership style at CLF was very much the typical MFI command-and-control, pastor-is-the-man-of-God-don’t-question-him style. That style is wrong every time it is tried in any church. I hope Doug Cotton now sees where he went wrong at CLF and has learned from it.
The current leadership at CLF seems to have a good, healthy style. The elders have learned and matured quite a bit through this whole ordeal. They are very open to new ideas and willing to have discussions — among themselves and with other members and attendees. They use a team-oriented approach, rather than a hierarchical model. They believe that church needs to be about genuineness in worship, Bible study, and community. No longer is church entertainment; it is participatory. Kudos to them for their efforts in trying to lead in a style that seems healthy, respectful of people, and in line with the egalitarian message of the gospel.
You asked us how do churches cover up for leadership? This is how: A preacher comes to Bible Temple after ruining a chuch by sleeping with the women in it. Bible Temple takes him in and reforms him. He is sent to Grays Harbor where he takes over a home meeting with deticated christians. They form Rhema fellowship. The pastor sleeps with members of the congragation, people start asking questions and are told not to talk about it. Some leave and the congragation is told to disfellowship with them because they have been won over by Satan. Shhhhhhhhhh don’t talk. Shhhhhhhh don’t ask questions. Shhhhhhhhh if you talk about the leadership God will get you. You listen to your leaders and you don’t talk to the people who are your brothers and sisters. Shame on me shame on us. Preacher goes back to Bible Temple and serves as janitor and “becomes reformed.” Bible Temple sends him out to new church and he sleeps with more women. Ruins another church. God has enough and takes care of problem.
Does it sound like the Vatican protecting child molesters? With a priest doing as he wishes and being protected by the Pope. Former Inner Circle Member tells us not to talk about the situation “even if it’s true.” THAT is how they got away with it. We must ask questions! Who are these pentecostal popes and priests that are trying to run things? Are we the peasant soldiers in their crusades?
Yes it does.
The more year hear about MFI the more it sounds like the mafia.
I will tell you of a true situation dealing with M.F.I. and Doug Cotton. Back in September of 1995 a situation occured in a small church in a town about 20 miles East of C.L.F.. a new pastor needed to be brought in because the current pastor had to step down. Bob MacGregor who had been associated with that small church suggested to Dave Minor that a young upcoming pastor Paul Ridell was the one for the job. Well it was only a short time before pastor paul and pastor Doug put their heads together without approval of the existing eldership of the small church in question and Ridell sold the church (literally) to C.L.F. and Doug Cotton. When Doug Cotton was questioned about his motive for acquiring the building he said that it was the elderships decision and not his. These individuals sold that congregation down the river and scattered them to the four winds, or traveling the 20 miles to attend C.L.F. It was a decision made by one man without an eldership and the policies in place to protect the people. There was no regard for the people. There was only the money so that C.L.F. could expand their operation and to hell with that small independent church and it’s family that was displaced and relocated.
The avowed BT policy used to be for KRI to publicly disclose this type of sin in leadership from the pulpit or Ivy Hall — I could name at least 3 specific people/occasions when this was done on 76th, back in the day. This was the biblical action to be taken, as seen in the following passages:
15 “And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17 “And if he refuses to listen to them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. (Matt. 18:15-17, NASB, emphasis mine)
and again:
19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
20 THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN SIN, REBUKE IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning. (1 Tim. 5:19-20, NASB)
At that point, those of us at Bible Temple were admonished to not engage in further discussion — gossip — about it, which admonition was, again, biblical:
20…I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, SLANDER, GOSSIP, arrogance and disorder. (2 Cor. 12:20, NIV, emphasis mine)
15 But if you BITE AND DEVOUR one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another. (Gal. 5:15, NASB, emphasis mine)
Same thing when someone was dismissed from PBC…we were all told to not talk about it since the chastisement had already been doled out by leadership.
So, if by getting “swept under the rug,” getting “covered up,” or “burying the truth in the streets” you mean how the oversight didn’t REPEATEDLY ADVERTISE someone’s sin, or that they didn’t want people who heard about it to THEMSELVES SIN by discussing — gossiping about — it, then what’s the beef?
I fail to see the complaint, unless it is because of our frustration at not getting a chance to assuage our own conscience by verbally condemning another person.
Does any of us have a corner on the market in holiness?…in not ever sinning? Does not each one of us have all and sundry skeletons safely hidden from view in our respective closets, sins that we would be loathe for the enquiring minds of this world to find out about? I’m not talking about secret, damaging sin in LEADERSHIP that needs to be divulged as described above. I’m talking about personal sin in OUR lives, which, if we are believers, we have already wept over and confessed to the Lord, perhaps many times over.
In my view, no one has the right to hypocritically condemn another’s sin:
“A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face…Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; FOR I AM HOLIER THAN THOU. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.†(Isaiah 65:3-5, KJV)
Oh, yes, in my younger days I, too, used to do this, which reminds me of the saying, “When young men cry for judgment, old men plead for mercy.”
You see this same thing in John 8:3-11, when Jesus challenged the fellow-sinners of the adulterous women to proceed with the stoning if they themselves were sinless (Interestingly, Jesus alone had the right to stone her, as He was the only One there without sin). The fellow-sinners, convicted by their own consciences, began to leave, “the older ones first.”
Now, in regard to the above-mentioned incidents, if there was no public disclosure of the sin of someone in leadership, as the Timothy passage commands, then there would be a problem.
joebib
I was talking about secret damaging sin that needed to be divulged. So what’s your beef.? I don’t even think I said make a public display of leaderships sin. But I do think that anyone involved in these churches has a right to have any questions answered so they are able to process and get some kind of closure . The reason this Blog exists and people are using this means to try to make sense of all this should tell us all something. I believe what I am pleading for is mercy. I don’t see any in this style of leadership. If you’ve ever been on the other end of these situations you would understand. There was no mercy. No compassion for people in the congreation that were giving there lives to these people only to be used for their own sexual gratification , lining their own pockets and using fear and intimadation to keep us from asking questions. This is just asking questions. A lot of us are still asking those same question years later because they’ve never been answered. Had they been answered I certainly would’nt find the need to be here taling to more holier than thou people llike you still perpetuating the problem. I’ve never gone public with any of this stuff until now since it seems to be already out there and there seems to be a whole lot of hurting people just trying to make sense of what has happened to them in these churches in question. Oh yeah aboout making things public , when my family had a closed meeting with Our Pastor at Rhema just wanting explanations for some of the things we were experiencing we were the ones that were publicliy disfellowshiped and people were told to stay away from us. It was months later that we found out that he had commited adultry with members of the comgration. Have you ever heard of watchmen on the wall?
I am with you Rhema (mostly or totally?). Much of what you have “exposed” has been known about for years but never discussed, i.e. the gb having such sins. But as you said, it was quickly swept under the carpet. Another in the near same situation was db.
Lots of secrets in the olden days, and depending on what the person’s status was depended on how publically they were exposed or not exposed. In the olden days at BT I don’t recall EVER seeing a male up in front of the congregation asking forgiveness for his sexual transgressions, just the female.. interesting dealings then… and I still find that interesting that they did it that way.. EVEN that it was necessary at all to further humiliate anyone. Just my 2 cents.
I see there’s still a war going on out there in christendom. I am just one more baby christian who had her legs blown off by the Rhema extremists.
I know for a fact there are so many more out there that the Lord is calling back. But the big question is???? Where is it safe to go get fed. The wolves have taken over the watering holes…har har! Unless you have walked in the shoes of a Rhema survivor, please don’t judge them. Most of us came into the church from the world, we don’t know how to play the church games. because the Lord is real to us. We would all like to see the leaders get real, and fess up the their con games. No I’m not bitter not even angry anymore. I feel sorry for the innocent lambs who are falling victim to the corruption in the churches today. Its taken 20+years to get my legs back. the Lord is faithful, don’t lose heart, take your eyes off of (man) Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus he is just and true.
Thank you Rhema survivor for you honesty and guts wish this blog could have been here 25 years ago
A lot of hurting people have been waiting for justice for years. MFI and Dick Iverson seem to be connected to it all.
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Sounds like someone is afraid of (being exposed)…lol if we have nothing to hide who gives a rip, we have all stuffed the crap far to long…
(living life said: “Another in the near same situation was db.”)
As I remember, DB’s sin WAS made public, and consequently, he was removed from his office, was he not? Furthermore, I even remember him later speaking of it, openly, to we students in class, candidly admitting how previously he had been under control by it, and so forth.
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(living life said: “Lots of secrets in the olden days, and depending on what the person’s status was depended on how publicly they were exposed or not exposed.”)
One would assume the family of the senior pastor to have gotten free passes in this regard. Yet, I was at the service when KRI’s brother got up in Ivy Hall and publicly confessed, and that not without tears. Thus begging the question of if his brother, the son of the founder of BT, was not spared this personal humiliation, would that be considered high enough status to admit your statement here is untrue?
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(living life said: “In the olden days at BT I don’t recall EVER seeing a male up in front of the congregation asking forgiveness for his sexual transgressions, just the female…”)
See above example. And, as I recall, NI was a dude
AFAIK, the woman/female in question made no public confession. Thus disproving your allegation of prejudice against females, no?
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(living life said: “interesting dealings then… and I still find that interesting that they did it that way.. EVEN that it was necessary at all to further humiliate anyone.”)
Yes, that must have been extremely devastating personally. Which is the point/result, after all, that Jesus was making when He instituted the practice (again, see Matt. 18:15-17, NASB). Are you taking exception to BT’s attempt to be biblical and obey the Word?
“16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.” (James 5:16, NASB)
Also compare the application from 1 Tim. 5:19-20 (NASB), cited here (again):
“19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning.”
Apparently, the Scriptures listed in the posts aren’t being read. If the Bible is accepted as authoritative, then one would assume these references would therefore make comments to the contrary unnecessary. If it isn’t, maybe we should resurrect our discussion on Inerrancy, after all.
No offence intended, just an observation.
joebib
(Rhema survivor said: “I was talking about secret damaging sin that needed to be divulged. So what’s your beef?â€)
I can’t speak to the DC situation, but GB is yet another whose sin WAS publicly divulged, as well as DB’s, NI’s, etc. My beef is that you seem to want to extract some sort of pound of flesh from various individuals, because you haven’t been given all the facts you feel you are somehow entitled to in regard to the details of their sins.
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(Rhema survivor said: “I don’t even think I said make a public display of leaderships sin.â€)
Perhaps not in so many words, but was that not you who was lamenting the following?
“…DI got GB out of town and then put a gag order on us so we wouldn’t gossip.â€
Doesn’t your desire to gossip about it amount to publicly displaying it? Or have you discovered a way to gossip silently/non-publicly?
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(Rhema survivor said: “But I do think that anyone involved in these churches has a right to have any questions answered so they are able to process and get some kind of closure.â€)
I disagree. I see nothing in Scripture — nor that which would serve any practical purpose — which gives us the right to know salacious details in the lives of others who have sinned. Quite the contrary, when the Word describes sexual sins, it does so briefly and circumspectly (see Gen. 9:20-23, 19:30-38; 2 Sam. 11:2-4; 1 Cor. 5:1, etc.).
And since you mention it, if by “closure†you mean a chance to vent frustration by continuing to gossip about it, then I disagree with you again. I’m not sure what further questions need to be answered in a situation like this after it has been publicly revealed.
For example, are you wanting to know, “Who exactly did he do it with?†“Where were they when they did it?†“How many times did they do it?†Or even perhaps, “Did they employ the standard, missionary position when they did it?â€
Obviously, questions like these would only serve to feed our morbid curiosity.
Seems to me the notions of “process†and “closure†have been largely foisted upon us by modern psychology in its unredeemed attempt to address the results of our sins, when all the while the necessary answers to life’s problems have already been provided in the Word.
IMO, the only “closure†we need is to go no farther than that which the Bible teaches:
1. All of us are sinners. Matt. 7:1-5; Rom. 2:1, 3:10, 3:23, etc.
2. Those who have committed certain sins should be publicly exposed. Matt. 18:15-17; 1 Tim. 5:19-20; James 5:16.
3. It is then commanded that those sinners so exposed are to be forgiven by their fellow-sinners, that is, the members of the congregation. 2 Cor. 2:1-7; Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13, etc. Compare 1 Tim. 1:15.
And lastly, a liberal dose of the following should be applied:
“4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.†(1 Co. 13:4-6, NIV)
Compare also Phil. 3:13, and Phil. 4:8.
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(Rhema survivor said: “A lot of us are still asking those same question years later because they’ve never been answered. Had they been answered I certainly would’nt (sic) find the need to be here taling (sic) to more holier than thou people llike (sic) you still perpetuating the problem.â€)
As I have said about your supposed unanswered questions, I disagree with the entire notion of further details needing to be given.
In regard to your charge about talking to me, you evidently misconstrue my point. If you could look inside my heart you would see that I’m in no sense “holier than thou.†In fact, would to God I was more “holy†than I am. I’m not even the holiest person in my home, for that matter
I would like to know the following, however: Do you seriously feel that because I seek to bring certain Scriptures to bear in this discussion, that I am “perpetuating the problem?â€
Based upon what I read in your posts, it seems to me that is what you are doing, my friend.
Having said that, though, I do feel for you, Rhema survivor, and the continued pain you obviously experience from past hurts and injustices by leadership, all of which are regrettable. I pray that the Lord will, someday soon, heal you of them as He has promised He would.
“He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.” (Ps. 147:3, KJV)
joebib
joebib said,”Having said all that , though I do feel for you…. “If that was true you would not have said all that. Oh yeah and thank you for all the spelling corrections .
My beef is: Persons speaking into a situation without knowing what they are talking about. Even Jesus had to rebuke the Pharisees for there lack of mercy, compassion and love. As you might recall they crucified him! We can all correct spelling heck we have spell check…lol We do love the sinner and hate the sin, is it then necessary to allow the offenders to be placed in a new uninformed church to re offend. This seems to be the policy of MFI. Who is keeping watch over the sheep? Do we take a blood sucking weasel out of the hen house and stick him in another coop? Stop placing pastors with real known issues in a role of authority over baby Christians.
You don’t hand a thief a gun and let him manage the bank. when we sin against the whole congregation we should lose the privilege to lead….
Joe Bib Student I don’t believe you feel for Rhema survivor. You are too wrapped up in showing how humble you are. Yes you are so wonderful with your bible smarts to bad you don’t have compassion, no offense intended, just an observation. I do feel for your lack of compassion Joebibstudent I truely do. Chirstians don’t be intimidated by a Pharisee like Joebibstudent. Would to God he wasn’t so self righteous. Feel free to correct spellling errors Joe. These people are hurting and want to talk to each other while people like you are trying to shut them up. Jesus was a revolutionary. He came to save the humble and the week from those who put themselves on pedestals. He was not afraid to question church leaders and politicians. Shouldn’t we follow his example? Christians, you are the church– dare to ask questions. The church leaders should be held accountable and we should not let them forget this.
Ok, ok.
So it apparently offends Rhema, FHC, FSO, and perhaps others when I use “(sic).” Mea culpa, its just a habit — and the correct way to quote someone’s remarks, by the way.
I promize too try not two yuse it animore, k?
Oh, and one more thing…as far as lobbing the accusation/personal insult stuff goes (Pharisee, self-righteous, etc.), I, too, do it sometimes, especially if someone is trolling, which I’m not. But it does take things to a higher (lower?) level, and is a bit more mean-spirited than making grammatical corrections, wouldn’t you agree?
However good it makes us feel to dis someone, it really doesn’t address the point of our discussion, does it?
NTTABT in itself, necessarily, and if it makes you feel good doing it, then by all means proceed
Back on topic.
If the MFI leadership knowingly place unrepentant, non-confronted/-exposed pastors into these situations, then I agree with you, it is abominable. But, and if they are attempting to restore to ministry truly repentant men/leaders who have been dealt with biblically, it’s just what God Himself did in the Scriptures with men who had failed Him previously (see Abraham, David, Mark, etc.).
Of course, it goes without saying that these situations need to be very closely monitored, which I don’t know if this took place or not, nor for how long. And it is also a different situation if these people could be characterized as “predatory,†and if said leadership continues in this type of behavior, then of course, they shouldn’t be given any more chances. Period. AFAIK, that’s not the case here, but if it is, that’s a totally different deal.
One other thing that goes unmentioned here is the “other parties” involvement in said sexual misconduct. Yes, yes, I avow it is despicable for anyone in leadership to be doing this with members of their flock, and they definitely will be held accountable for it by God, no doubt — compare Rev. 1:20 with Heb. 10:31, and see James 3:1, as well.
But, what about those they “did it” with?
Were these minors who were manipulated into engaging in these actions, or were they adults?
Did they give their consent, or were they physically forced?
Did they make a conscious decision to engage in immorality, or were they drugged?
Were they not already aware of this person’s propensity — since they were previously exposed, publicly — to have done this type of behavior in the past?
Again, I am aware of the emotional relationship that exists between pastor and flock, and recognize the tendency of (immature) individuals to sometimes adulate their leaders.
Still, do you feel the people/women who did this stuff with their leadership will be somehow winked at by God for their part in these sinful acts?
Does their complicity in all this not matter?
Furthermore, wouldn’t you say it also affects the situation if any of them have previously had a PATTERN of this in their own lives?
I’m sure we’re all aware there are people in this world who find anyone in the spotlight attractive, and who “go after” them accordingly. Just look at politicians, movie/TV/media stars, athletes, and the like. I remember reading about one of the women former LA Laker Magic Johnson gave AIDS to, how she admitted she had “done it” with him, on an office desk I believe, not because she found him attractive, but rather because he was famous. I have a pastor friend, whose name many of you would recognize, who had this happen to him by a woman who was herself “predatory,” and who had a lengthy history of going after pastors and those in leadership, with quite a bit of fruit for her labors, as I recall.
I still don’t agree that giving vent to one’s hurts by continually regurgitating/replaying/repeating them over and over again, on this site, or in one’s spirit, to be the way to overcome them. More importantly, nor can support be found from the Bible to do so. To the contrary, it’s just the opposite from the instructions in the Word, and who knows better than God how we should deal with these things? FWIW, I personally have never really gotten over anything by holding on to past hurts/offences. It just served to keep me bitter, which is where the Enemy wanted me.
More to the point I was trying to make, what about the Scriptures? What saith the Lord? As happens too often IMO on this site, I haven’t seen anyone’s comments on how they’re attempting to apply the above-mentioned passages to this situation and to their respective lives.
Finally Speaking Out — If, as you charge, I had no feelings for the people involved in the matter at hand, consider this: do you really think I would continue to make myself vulnerable to attack by posting a view which I very well know precious few around here agree with?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve read, the majority here at C-Bus-C — heck, even by their own admission, the mods — don’t seem to really believe that the plain teaching of the Scriptures, especially the OT, should trump any of this, which is one reason why I list so many verses. God couldn’t care less about my personal opinions if they’re not in alignment with His Word. And yet, interestingly, the “I thinks” and “I feels” appear to reign supreme in most people’s minds.
joebib
Well Joe you’ve done it again. You have taken the victims and the people that are hurting and victimized them again. I haven’t stepped foot in a church in 25 years. I was afraid it would hurt my walk with God. Glad I didn’t after talking to you Joe. DI is responsible for putting GB among the sheep. A special punishment awaits hims. Poor G.B. set upon by all those lustful women in 3 or more churches–harlots.
One more thing Joe–You ask “Were they drugged? Were they adults? Were they physically forced?” These people came out of the world having done may terrible thing in their past–they were trusting the church. I don’t care if the women were standing on their head nude waving their legs saying come and get it. He still shouldn’t have done it and they shouldn’t have sent him to another church. They didn’t know about G.B.’s propensity for fornication–only his family and D.I. knew. Most of these women were new christians and you want to ask if they were asking for it? Shame on you. I imagine if a child in the catholic church told you he was molested you would tell him to keep quiet and to stop wearing such tight pants.
I nominate that for quote of the week. Hilarious.
To joebibstudent: Hey Dick Iverson is this really you? I could swear I’ve heard all this before just like it was yesterday!
[Comment ID #27227 Will Be Quoted Here]
How would you apply this scripture Joe Bib?
JEREMIAH CHAPTER 23, 1 thru 8.
Thy word we have hid in our hearts to be a lamp unto our feet…not to be used to beat the sheep into submission. We love ya Joe bib! We will pray for you Joe Bib! May the Lord open your eyes to the spiritual damage you continue to inflict in Gods Holy flock.
* Jesus told us not to Judge. “Judge not, that ye be not judged,†No he did not. Read in its context, vs.2-5 goes on to refer to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. In other words, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin. However if you take care of that sin you can help your brother.
The fact that His (Jesus’) whole ministry was a judgment against the Pharisees who wanted him to agree with their way of practicing Judaism. To the Pharisees he said to their face, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh†(Matt. 12:34). He stood up to them to their face and called them “hypocrites,†“blind,†“blind guides,†“whited sepulchres,†“serpents,†and a “generation of vipers.†(read Matthew 23 to find out who the real Jesus is, not the tolerant scrawny mild manner milksop that some portray). John 3:19-21 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.†That’s judgment is it not?
Jesus in John 7:24 said to the people: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.†so he is telling us to judge, and he is not contradicting himself elsewhere. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets!†(Matthew 7:15) How could we obey and “beware†of “false prophets†unless we test them- that’s judging.
The apostles teachings are from Jesus and the spoke far more on testing and judging than even Jesus did, they named names (8 of them in the New Testament, as the prophets did in the Old Testament) and were correcting the church in their letters.
Legalism
Yes Joe Bib
There are some groups that have right doctrine but are steeped in legalism. Legalism are laws that are unscriptural or biblical laws that are no longer to be practiced. They make ones walk heavy and the effect is having them lose their joy. They become toilsome, harsh and inflexible. The Pharisees couldn’t show mercy the heavier matters of the law because of their legalism although they knew the Scriptures well enough. Love and legalism don’t mix, love is flexible willing to yield. Love, grace and peace are a family they bring health and growth to an individual. While extra laws are a burden and often times bring bondage if not exercised by an individuals own free choice, legalism may not affect ones salvation as much as it will affect their spiritual growth. It certainly can affect their relationship to the Lord. churches that are orthodox in doctrine can fall under a pastor or leadership that goes beyond their God given authority and manipulate the congregation or individual members.
http://www.letusreason.org/Cults1.htm
I am also a tired sad survivor of Rhema. I was also disfellowshipped. My mistake was in telling the pastor something the Lord had told me. I did what he told me to do and for my efforts was called a heretic. I realized after all the dust was settled the the pastor was scared. The Lord told me things that the pastor thought were secret. Several things, nothing that would have embarressed him, just enough to give him a hint that God knew all the secrets. I watched him be restored in love. Then sent out all better. What I did not see was all the rest of the hurting being restored in love. I did not see a public apology following the very public disfellowshipping of alot of people that did not agree with how some things were being done. That said, we can all quote scripture to prove our points. We should remember that God does not have any favorites.He loves all of us and the point that I think some are trying to make is that the leadership seems to forget that. Of course they would like us to remember that as far as it concerns them.
Hi,
Can someone from Rhema email me concerning the identity of GB and DB.
If GB is whom I am guessing, it may make things a little clearer.
My email is karimichelle7@aol.com
Thanks.
There once was a man named joebib,
His comments were ever so glib.
He must be a clone from the MFI zone,
Taken from Dick Iversons rib!
[Comment ID #27245 Will Be Quoted Here]
Gail Bryan, I dont know who DB is. Ive been wondering myself.
Thanks to those of you who responded. I kind of figured that might be the case and it does shed some light on the “extra” attention he gave myself and other young friends during PBC. So sad.
But it also frustrates me that Bible Temple was not more careful. GB was on campus all the time. That should have been more closely monitored.
Also, Pastor Iverson brought a young single pastor from NY to PBC while I was there who had committed fornication, to restore him. Great—nothing like young naive 18-22 year-old virgins to help restore a lustful man. As I recall he broke a few hearts. Good thing I had all of those rules to protect me, because the church certainly wasn’t protecting us. He went back and fell into sin again.
You guys were the ones being closely monitored KariMichelle. Thats what all those rules were for! For someone who is so into seeing people restored why din’t Dick Iverson and MFI do something for all the people whose lives were destroyed by these Pastors? Oh yeah now I remember…. If we don’t talk about it then it didn’t really happen and if it didn’t really happen then nobody had to do anything about it. Now I get it!
(Finally Speaking Out said: “They didn’t know about G.B.’s propensity for fornication–only his family and D.I. knew.”)
I’m calling you-know-what on you here, FSO.
Look, I was there at the service when KRI, with obvious personal difficulty, publicly exposed GB from the BT pulpit. Heard him start off by saying words very similar to, “I have something to tell you all which is very painful for me to say, as well as sad: Pastor GB has fallen into sin….” Don’t know about any of the rest of you old-timers who were also at that service, but I wept, as it was an extremely emotional, gut-wrenching moment. All I could think of was him, his flock, the person(s) actually involved, the damage which would surely be done to the Lord’s Name and to His Church by the enemies of the Gospel (2 Sam. 12:14; Rom. 2:24, etc.), GB’s wife and kids, and especially of Mark, with whom I was rather close in those days.
So, at the least, some 2,000, and perhaps as many as 3,000 people in attendance at that very moment were made aware of GB’s sin, in addition to however many people were attending his church at that time, a few hundred, I believe. Not to mention most, if not all of the pastors — as well as many of their respective congregations — of the other churches in his area that would surely find out what happened after he stepped down from being pastor of his church. Easily, several hundred more.
As we all very well know, and notwithstanding the plea of oversight, when sordid sins of this nature are committed by people, especially when these people who are doing the sinning happen to be members of leadership, fellow-sinners (read: Christians) verily knock one another over in lining up to repeat/discuss/gossip about it endlessly, over and over, and thus the circle of those who know about it increases geometrically.
So in a very short period of time, perhaps only a few weeks, the number has multiplied to literally several thousands of people who know about this person’s dirty deeds.
I say all this to address the naïve notion that what GB did was supposedly a closely-guarded secret, or some unknown thing carried on in a dark corner somewhere, unseen by enquiring minds.
Furthermore, according to the opinions/inferences voiced here by some, KRI is consistently being portrayed as almost a co-adulterer since he, naively perhaps, attempted to follow the biblical pattern of restoring several who fell in the ministry.
Yes, I agree KRI’s actions — however well-intentioned they were originally meant to be — must, in the final analysis, be viewed as not only unwise, but patently foolish. But, having said that, I’m convinced no one felt worse about it than he when someone whom he believed in fell (again) into the same, or similar sin — if you think otherwise, then you don’t know the man, nor his heart.
For which decision(s), I’m sure many of you will be relieved/satisfied to know, as in all things done by leadership in their respective ministries (as seen in the above-mentioned Jer. 23:1-8 passage), KRI will one day have to answer unto the Lord, perhaps severely:
3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1, NASB)
However, to make him out to be some sort of Pharisaical, insidious, co-perpetrator in the guilt of GB’s sins comes under the heading of “slanderous reviling” (look it up), IMO, is wrong, and violates the command of “speaking the truth in love,†as well.
joebib
[Comment ID #27234 Will Be Quoted Here]
This one’s better I think:
“I don’t care if the women were standing on their head nude waving their legs saying come and get it.”
lol
joebib
(Finally Speaking Out said: “Most of these women were new christians and you want to ask if they were asking for it? Shame on you. I imagine if a CHILD in the catholic church told you he was molested you would tell him to keep quiet and to stop wearing such tight pants.”) (emphasis mine)
1. I asked why no one had the political incorrectness (read: intestinal fortitude, otherwise referred to, colloquially, as “cajones”) to MENTION the issue of the women involved, and if they perhaps shared any complicity for engaging in adultery themselves. Period.
FWIW, if God were to ask me how I would attribute the matter of guilt, I would say GB should bear at least 75% of the responsibility, in comparison to the women he did it with. But, AFAIK, these women still made a conscious decision to sin as well, correct me if I’m wrong.
In seeking to take application from one of the few biblical passages speaking to this situation, Deut. 22, the only free pass to be found there is for those forced, and who then cried out, but not for naivete/gullibility.
2. Your example using the word “child” proves my point exactly. Were the women who committed adultery with GB “children?â€
joebib
P.S. In our clamor to re-play these lusty episodes, something just occurred to me: Would the majority of females involved in all of this, those whose innocence is being defended, and abuse of rights decried, want all of us on this site to be re-hashing what must have ended up, after the public disclosure thereof, to be embarrassing, even terrible memories for them?
(Fox Hole Christian said: “May the Lord open your eyes to the spiritual damage you continue to inflict in Gods Holy flock.”)
Tommyrot, poppycock, and balderdash.
But, to answer the charge…
1. I’ve sought to bring applicable Scripture into this discussion.
2. I’ve brought up issues germane to the subject at hand, and which surely affect the attributing of guilt, which burden/privilege to do so has been so humbly undertaken by several around here.
3. I’ve resorted to reason (in the perhaps naive attempt) to cool the hot heads of my fellow-sinners, we who are ever-crying for the blood of other guilty sinners under discussion.
4. I’ve hoped to prick the conscience of my afore-mentioned fellow-sinners as to our own sinful condition, whose sin, BTW, is just as despicable to God, in hopes we could all just uncock our loaded pistols — even for a day — aimed at MFI, KRI, GB, DB, DC, WS, JS, et al, and remember the words of Christ in Matthew 7:1-5, and Matthew 18:21-22.
” ‘Off with their heads!’ I cried, till I knew it must needs start with mine.”
5. I’ve resisted, so far (I think) the ever-growing temptation to respond in kind to the mean-spirited name-calling carried on in here, which BTW, would give me immense pleasure.
So, explain to me again how I — in regard to points 1-4, at least — am “damaging” God’s Holy flock?
joebib
I too went to Bible Temple. I lived above the book store across the street. I was friends with Kevin Connor, played on Ken Malmens basketball team (great player), played racquet ball with Bill Sizemore and ate at pastor Iversons house. I believe the Iversons and the people of Bible Temple to be some of the most sincere Christians I’ve ever met. But when a man becomes a pastor he knows he will be around people with terrible problems. They are new to what is going on and so happy to have found God. They trust the pastor with all of their hearts and look up to him as a representative of God. A pastor can easily sway them into doing what he wants which is good if the pastor uses it to their best interest.
Dick made a terrible mistake when he first knew Gail had devastated the Idaho church he should have never sent him out a a pastor again. Reform him yes, but keep him a Bible Temple under limited access to women. When Dick sent him out two more times and Gail did what he did then Dick should have stepped down as head pastor.
Gail’s mea culpa came only after he got caught. We tried to keep it quiet for a while which we believed was best for the church. The women that were abused are not the ones at fault. It was the man with power over them. The people that need reformed and help are the victims. Many have left the church never to return. God weeps for everyone of them and they need to know they did something wrong and have some blame but ultimately it was the leadership which failed them from Bible Temple to Rhema.
The question isn’t what percent they are to blame but how do we get them to walk with god again? Some of you won’t go back to church. It wasn’t God’s fault. It was the people placed in charge of the church. God will deal with them in the end. Right now Joebib you are abusing the victims too. I don’t know if you are sincere or just having fun with them. If you are an adult Christian God expects more out of you than this.
The debate here should not be who is right or wrong, who has more knowledge of the bible, who can argue better, or who is the best speller. It should be how can we save lost souls that have been cast out by the very churches they thought would save them.
RHIGHT ON! MARK9:42 EVERY WELL SAID.
YOU HIT THE MARK.
NOTHING MORE TO SAY, AMEN, AMEN & AMEN!
THANK YOU!!!!!
Too bad you brought up bill sleazemore… he could be great fodder for the blog….. Except he fleeced the State of Oregon, not just Christians at BT
I love our readers.
(Mark 9:42 said: “I lived above the book store across the street.”)
So did I. When did you live there?
joebib
oh my goodness. . Joebib. …. are you lance in disguise?
[Comment ID #27274 Will Be Quoted Here]
What? Don’t tell me you lived up there, too? Oh geez.
Lest more salvos are fired my way (“Oh, yeah, I remember that a – - hole. THAT explains his posts”), my identity will remain anonymous.
Hint #1: I used to go down in the middle of the night, pick the lock to the connecting door of the bookstore, and read by flashlight the books I couldn’t afford to buy.
Hint #2: While down there, I would also use the phone in Dick Andrew’s office to call my gf, because Warren Steele had put a lock on our dorm phone.
Bonus: Once tried to make wine — to be used for communion
— by setting out a gallon jug of apple juice on the roof of the bookstore. Probably would’ve worked, too, had not our dormleader found it after 2 days and poured it out.
joebib
[Comment ID #27265 Will Be Quoted Here]
I used to work for Bill. Was surprised to see him trying to do the political thing. I wouldn’t vote for him, not in a million.
joebib
(Mark 9:42 said: “The question isn’t what percent they are to blame but how do we get them to walk with god again? Some of you won’t go back to church. It wasn’t God’s fault. It was the people placed in charge of the church. God will deal with them in the end. Right now Joebib you are abusing the victims too. I don’t know if you are sincere or just having fun with them. If you are an adult Christian God expects more out of you than this.”)
I’m not abusing the victims, nor am I unfeeling toward those who suffered.
For the third time (is it?) I am asking certain questions.
I’m trying to point out these women gave their consent to adulterate, which no one here has the courage to admit.
I’m saying those who self-righteously judge GB and KRI for their sins are themselves sinning by violating Jesus’ command, as well as Paul’s.
Additionally, in the collective zeal to crucify GB and KRI, people are therefore making it OK to commit the sin of adultery, just as long as you were a woman who did it with GB.
How many ways and times do I have to say, “Yes, yes, yes,” I agree what GB was despicable, terrible and abominable, and he will be dealt with by the Lord? Does anyone here even carefully read what is posted? So many are biased by their emotions, that they read only what they want to see.
And yes, I sometimes respond with humor to deflect the negativity/harshness of certain posters.
(Mark 9:42 said: “The debate here should not be who is right or wrong, who has more knowledge of the bible, who can argue better, or who is the best speller. It should be how can we save lost souls that have been cast out by the very churches they thought would save them.”)
I merely tried to show many of the close-minded readers around here that I agreed with GB’s guilt.
Spelling, Bible knowledge, etc., of course, have nothing to do with it. I purposely list Scriptures because so many here obviously let their opinions, emotions and reason reign supreme. None of which matter in the slightest if they are not in alignment with the Word.
Witness your mere mention of BS. Instant attack.
Too many around here alashing out at pastors and leadership when they are in the wrong, which they often admittedly are, and then justify the venom they spew by saying, “Hey, we are merely pointing out their sins.”
Don’t believe me? Go back and read some (the majority?) of the posts on this blog. Precious little love, but a lot of vindictive bile, I reckon.
What’s completely lost of them is that they themselves sin by their hateful attitudes. They forget we are to “Speak the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15). Show me how just because someone is hurt they are allowed by God to attack those who’ve hurt them? Chapter and verse?
Felons in prisons justify the attacking of child-molesters, rapists, etc., because they are deemed more terrible then they are. But, in the eyes of a Holy God, the same fire is reserved for liars and thieves as for child-molesters.
Matthew 7:4-5
joebib
Too many around here alashing out at pastors and leadership when they are in the wrong, which they often admittedly are, and then justify the venom they spew by saying, “Hey, we are merely pointing out their sins.â€
Boo Hoo…… Joe Glib
This is my last writing on this subject. You people who are hurting need to get off this blog. Joebib will continue to blame the victims and this is not healthy for you to hear. Scripture with some truth and a dose of poison will still harm you. These days there are many people like joebibstudent in church. They are there to confuse you and hurt your christian walk. Many people have recognised this and no longer attend church and they are stronger for it. Meet with other Christians study and read the Bible. The ideal is for you to find a healthy church but they are few and far between. Organized church is not for all. The longer you argue with people like Joe the sicker you will become. I urge you to protect yourselves and leave. Can’t you see the hatred contempt and ridicule he has for you? Do you think this is God’s spirit talking to you? No, quite the opposite get out now!
I see the truth in what you are saying…and I agree so long everyone, best of luck. see you in the other side. Looks like another wolf in sheep’s clothing.[Comment ID #27292 Will Be Quoted Here]
I kind of think this whole “I had sex with my pastor” thing is overblown. So you had sex with your creepy predatory pastor. Who hasn’t made a sexual mistake in their lives. It happens. You chalk it up as a minor youthful indescretion, promptly tell everyone within 20 miles that your loser pastor took advantage of you, and then you move on with your life.
“One day, you’ll look back on all this and laugh, say we were
young and stupid…”
“We’re not that young”
Finally speaking out said:
It is sad you feel this way about church. After reading joebibstudents piece I can see why you feel that way. The hate he spews towards women and hurt Christian is not the church’s fault and God will deal with it. The ideal is going to church and yes their are joebibs there and they will stay there
unless people with your passion come in and root them out. They are a poison to all of us. If you feel you can’t go to church you can still serve God. I do agree you should get off of this blog because the enemy will only do you harm if you stay.
[Comment ID #27296 Will Be Quoted Here]
I agree that this is not about the sex. And people should get over that but it is about the abuse of power and the loss of trust. When new Christians come to church they trust the church leaders to show them how to be good Christians. It reminds me of teachers sleeping with their students. Even if the student is 18 and consensual it is still against the law because of the abuse of power.
Except that it isn’t against the law. Most schools have policies against it, so the teacher will be fired but won’t be thrown in jail.
That said, I agree with you that the real issue here is abuse of power.
Yeah! Key word: FIRED! 1cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the gentiles, that someone has his fathers wife. And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. For I on my part though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has commited this as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I am with you in spirit , with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved inthe day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerety and truth. I wrote in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler– not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders?Do you not judge those who are in the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. (like I’ve said Bible temple has created a haven to restore the wrong people) Is that enough scripture for you joebib?
(Finally Speaking Out said: “The longer you argue with people like Joe the sicker you will become. I urge you to protect yourselves and leave. Can’t you see the hatred contempt and ridicule he has for you? Do you think this is God’s spirit talking to you? No, quite the opposite get out now!”)
Your insight is astounding. Why bother to hide my real motives any longer?
Yep…that’s it…run for your very lives.
Don’t risk getting “sicker.”
It’s true: I hate and have contempt for you all.
—————————————————————–
(Mark 9:42 said: “The hate he (uh…that would be me, joebib) spews towards women and hurt Christian is not the church’s fault and God will deal with it. The ideal is going to church and yes their are joebibs there and they will stay there unless people with your passion come in and root them out. They are a poison to all of us.”)
Wow…amazing.
joebib
Catalyst should read the Aberdeen Daily World. It is against the law to sleep with a student even if they are 18 and one of the coaches there is finding this out. He will be doing some jail time and is out on bail now
[Comment ID #27327 Will Be Quoted Here]
Completely and disgustingly off topic…but…
Interesting:
Not sure I agree with this… Seniors should be fair game…
Joebib,
There is a huge difference between wanting details about sin and stating matter-of-factly what a person did while he or she was in charge.
If a pastor was involved in physical and verbal abuse of staff members, participated in angry tirades with increasing frequency, made sexually suggestive comments to staff members and members of the congregation, lied to his board of elders (his bosses), used fear and manipulation to pit the elders against each other, tried to wrest control of the church away from the elders by setting up his own board of staff elders (without congregational approval) for the purpose of job security, took advantage of church finances, did not show up for work, and did not consistently prepare his own sermons, is this enough for the church board to fire the pastor?
Most people do not need a blow-by-blow account of what happened, but they do need enough information to realize that the pastor suffered from bad leadership characteristics and control issues.
Now let’s say that MFI tried via threats and lawsuits to keep this pastor’s track record from becoming public, and they now want him to pastor a church again.
People need to know what happened in the past so that they do not fall victim to the same person in the future. I believe that people can change, but that does not change the fact that people in visible, public positions also must be held accountable for their actions in public.
No one here believes that they are better than any of these fallen pastors. We are all imperfect, but we also must be willing to know enough to realize that failed leaders need to earn trust and respect back from their communities. Trust and respect are not simply bestowed overnight by MFI.
[Comment ID #27337 Will Be Quoted Here] From what the newspaper says, even a ‘catch & release’ could cause trouble.:)
I do think a different standard should be applied when some one is in a “power over” position. This is why the Clinton/Lewinski stink was so intricately investigated. She was a white house intern, Bill was her boss.
I think he got off VERY LIGHTLY. For a person in a position of power/trust
to use that position for financial gain, sexual favors, or to abuse the people in their sphere of influnence is disgusting. The way people in power operate today in this country, in politics, religion and business, makes me have great admiration for the French Revolution.
about what tiresias said: FINELY! Someone with some sense! Thank-you that’s all I wanted to know, and all any of us from down here have been trying to say.
[Comment ID #27342 Will Be Quoted Here]
tiresias — I agree with you 100% in what is a reference, I think, to the DC situation. Very well — and compassionately — stated.
Still unbelievable to me is how the (MFI) oversight responded to this situation, if I have followed all the facts correctly, since it is hearsay to me. I can only hope that MFI did not have all of the facts, or was not told the whole story about what went on there, and thus didn’t think it was as serious as it really was. It’s also quite possible they thought the version they were getting from the local elders, as is often the case in these matters, was jaded or exaggerated, and being pastors, allowed their hearts to rush in to defend to a fellow pastor under attack.
You’ve heard, I assume, the saying, “Better ‘tis to err on the side of mercy, than judgment.â€
Another possibility must be allowed: they simply failed (refused?) to see the reality of it, and were in a sort of denial, which I truly hope was not the case.
100%, that is, until you say this:
“No one here believes that they are better than any of these fallen pastors.”
If you will forgive me for saying so, I think you are being a bit too generous in this characterization. If you will kindly go back and read some of the above remarks, as well as others under different posts, I think you will find a few around here appear to be losing the battle in properly seeing the “specks” in other’s eyes due to the “logs” in their own. Too severe (spiteful?) in their self-righteous clamor for wanting the heads of the guilty, in my view.
Crying “off with their heads!” for the sins of others who are evidently trapped in their behavior patterns, which action they surely wouldn’t want us, much less the Lord, to take against their own sins when they are all finally made public (see Luke 12:1-3). Especially since some of them may indeed have crossed the line of biblical injunction touching these issues:
26 Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger.
…29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear.
…31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. (Eph. 4:26-32, NASB)
Matthew 7:1-5, as well, must ever be our guide in our perspective towards other’s actions.
A personal illustration:
About a year ago, my son, who was in the PBC student leadership at the time, called me and was just really upset about some stuff/motives he perceived to be going on in CBC/PBC, layoffs, etc. He went on and on telling me all about it, you know, the stuff we all feel and say when we think we see injustice, or bad attitudes, or even perhaps outright sinful practices taking place in our church, letting our emotions and mouths — see James 3:5-12 — get the better of us
I patiently listened to what he had to say, letting him vent for about 15 minutes, until he was finally done.
I then quietly asked, “So, son, what about YOUR attitude in all this?”
Somewhat taken aback, he said, “What do you mean?â€
I suggested, from our imagined perception of what the Lord’s viewpoint might be, that though what he was saying could very well be true, that there may in fact have been serious problems that desperately needing correcting, the fact was, that God now had TWO problems He needed to deal with: 1) what may, or may not have been going on in the church/college, and 2) my son’s resultant attitude towards it.
Thankfully, I got him to calm down, he listened to the advice of his father (gotta love that) and began the process of changing his heart-attitude. Within a day or so, he was able to see the situation more in line with the way the Lord would have him to.
The tenor of Scripture is that all who are appointed (read: other leadership) to be involved with disciplining leadership for their sin should have a humble — almost hesitant — attitude in approaching the matter:
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. (NASB)
and again:
19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.
20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. (1 Tim. 5:19-20, NIV)
I love David’s heart-attitude toward his king, the sinful Saul, how his heart “smote†him for what he had done in the mere cutting of the corner of Saul’s garment (1 Sam. 24:5), even though it was God’s avowed plan to eventually remove Saul from being king over Israel. David was careful in “touching†the Lord’s anointed (cf. Ps. 105:15).
A heart which, in reference to the Saul incident, God said was “after” His Own (Acts 13:21-22).
joebib
My apologies. I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me.
you’re sick joebib.
[Comment ID #27296 Will Be Quoted Here]
I find myself in agreement with Cat — his view on the OT notwithstanding
There are posters here who delight in magnifying the sins of others, and seek to make them worse than their own.
[Comment ID #27355 Will Be Quoted Here]
Perhaps.
More to the point, however, is that several of you continue to refuse to obey God’s Word.
So, I’m asking you, Rhema, Fox Hole Christian, Finally Speaking Out, Mark 9:42…
Can you, will you forgive GB, KRI, et al, for their sins — just as Christ has forgiven you??
I hope you will take the time to read Matthew 18:21-36, and especially verse 36, before you answer.
joebib
joebib,
Did Rhema, Fox Hole Christian or Finally Speaking Out, ever say that they haven’t forgiven?
Sometimes one person’s sin can have a lingering affect, result or consequence on other people for years. Just because they talk about the sin and their anger or frustration at the injustices done doesn’t mean that they haven’t forgiven and it’s a bit pompous of you to assume that instead of asking them.
Joebib,
None of us care about the sexual things you are hung up on. What we are upset about is DI sending a known predator of women to our church and two others withoug letting us know his problem–period.
I agree with Finally Speaking Out. Dick Iverson set up MFI to protect the pastors. His attitude was “to hell with the congregation and if we are caught discredit them.
joe glib
Read my posts … where are you getting your information?
Fox Hole Christian said:
July 19th, 2007 at 10:41 am
I see there’s still a war going on out there in christendom. I am just one more baby christian who had her legs blown off by the Rhema extremists.
I know for a fact there are so many more out there that the Lord is calling back. But the big question is???? Where is it safe to go get fed. The wolves have taken over the watering holes…har har! Unless you have walked in the shoes of a Rhema survivor, please don’t judge them. Most of us came into the church from the world, we don’t know how to play the church games. because the Lord is real to us. We would all like to see the leaders get real, and fess up the their con games. No I’m not bitter not even angry anymore. I feel sorry for the innocent lambs who are falling victim to the corruption in the churches today. Its taken 20+years to get my legs back. the Lord is faithful, don’t lose heart, take your eyes off of (man) Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus he is just and true.
Thank you Rhema survivor for you honesty and guts wish this blog could have been here 25 years ago
A lot of hurting people have been waiting for justice for years. MFI and Dick Iverson seem to be connected to it all.
Fox Hole Christian said:
July 19th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Former Inner Circle Member on July 17, 2007 at 6:41 am said:
My 2 cents – I don’t think this kind of comment should be allowed. Unless these matters are public record, it’s just gossip (even if true) and something we should avoid.
Sounds like someone is afraid of (being exposed)…lol if we have nothing to hide who gives a rip, we have all stuffed the crap far to long…
Fox Hole Christian said:
July 20th, 2007 at 11:44 am
My beef is: Persons speaking into a situation without knowing what they are talking about. Even Jesus had to rebuke the Pharisees for there lack of mercy, compassion and love. As you might recall they crucified him! We can all correct spelling heck we have spell check…lol We do love the sinner and hate the sin, is it then necessary to allow the offenders to be placed in a new uninformed church to re offend. This seems to be the policy of MFI. Who is keeping watch over the sheep? Do we take a blood sucking weasel out of the hen house and stick him in another coop? Stop placing pastors with real known issues in a role of authority over baby Christians.
You don’t hand a thief a gun and let him manage the bank. when we sin against the whole congregation we should lose the privilege to lead….
How would you apply this scripture Joe Bib?
JEREMIAH CHAPTER 23, 1 thru 8.
Thy word we have hid in our hearts to be a lamp unto our feet…not to be used to beat the sheep into submission. We love ya Joe bib! We will pray for you Joe Bib! May the Lord open your eyes to the spiritual damage you continue to inflict in Gods Holy flock.
Fox Hole Christian said:
July 21st, 2007 at 11:22 am
* Jesus told us not to Judge. “Judge not, that ye be not judged,†No he did not. Read in its context, vs.2-5 goes on to refer to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. In other words, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin. However if you take care of that sin you can help your brother.
The fact that His (Jesus’) whole ministry was a judgment against the Pharisees who wanted him to agree with their way of practicing Judaism. To the Pharisees he said to their face, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh†(Matt. 12:34). He stood up to them to their face and called them “hypocrites,†“blind,†“blind guides,†“whited sepulchres,†“serpents,†and a “generation of vipers.†(read Matthew 23 to find out who the real Jesus is, not the tolerant scrawny mild manner milksop that some portray). John 3:19-21 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.†That’s judgment is it not?
Jesus in John 7:24 said to the people: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.†so he is telling us to judge, and he is not contradicting himself elsewhere. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets!†(Matthew 7:15) How could we obey and “beware†of “false prophets†unless we test them- that’s judging.
The apostles teachings are from Jesus and the spoke far more on testing and judging than even Jesus did, they named names (8 of them in the New Testament, as the prophets did in the Old Testament) and were correcting the church in their letters
Fox Hole Christian said:
July 21st, 2007 at 11:26 am
Legalism
Yes Joe Bib
There are some groups that have right doctrine but are steeped in legalism. Legalism are laws that are unscriptural or biblical laws that are no longer to be practiced. They make ones walk heavy and the effect is having them lose their joy. They become toilsome, harsh and inflexible. The Pharisees couldn’t show mercy the heavier matters of the law because of their legalism although they knew the Scriptures well enough. Love and legalism don’t mix, love is flexible willing to yield. Love, grace and peace are a family they bring health and growth to an individual. While extra laws are a burden and often times bring bondage if not exercised by an individuals own free choice, legalism may not affect ones salvation as much as it will affect their spiritual growth. It certainly can affect their relationship to the Lord. churches that are orthodox in doctrine can fall under a pastor or leadership that goes beyond their God given authority and manipulate the congregation or individual members.
http://www.letusreason.org/Cults1.htm
Fox hole Christian said:
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:38 am
I see the truth in what you are saying…and I agree so long everyone, best of luck. see you in the other side. Looks like another wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Finally Speaking Out on July 23, 2007 at 9:05 am said:
This is my last writing on this subject. You people who are hurting need to get off this blog. Joebib will continue to blame the victims and this is not healthy for you to hear. Scripture with some truth and a dose of poison will still harm you. These days there are many people like joebibstudent in church. They are there to confuse you and hurt your christian walk. Many people have recognised this and no longer attend church and they are stronger for it. Meet with other Christians study and read the Bible. The ideal is for you to find a healthy church but they are few and far between. Organized church is not for all. The longer you argue with people like Joe the sicker you will become. I urge you to protect yourselves and leave. Can’t you see the hatred contempt and ridicule he has for you? Do you think this is God’s spirit talking to you? No, quite the opposite get out now!
.
your sick joe bib…..lol
joebib,
As you well know forgiveness is one of the first lessons we learn in these types of churches. People are so damned afraid not to because God might strike them dead or the bitterness will destroy them that they will forgive even if they don’t know what they are forgiving. That goes along with the other teaching about not asking questions so you won’t fall into gossip. Looks like you’ve still got it all covered thirty some years later. I got on this blog to talk to others like myself who have suffered under this legalistic type of leadership hoping to find some empathy and understanding but instead find myself arguing with another one of the good ole boys himself. Instead of wasting you’re time on us why don’t you go volunteer at a local crisis clinic or womens shelter or better yet you could move to New York and talk to the victims of 911! Heck there are plenty of other victims that haven’t heard this crap before. I’m sure they’d all really benefit from such a kind compassionte caring person like you. You see I know because I was on my way to becoming just like you but I just couln’t make myself drink the koolaid! We’ve all paid a high price for our freedom ,given up a lot and someone like you certainly isn’ t going to talk us back into the same bondage again. I understand why you must defend your position. You’ve probably worked hard and built your whole life around this hierarchy. Heck if you haven’t made it clear to the top I’ll bet you are at least one of the head toilet scrubbers by now. Its a high price to pay for truth joebib and most of us on this blog have paid dearly. I can see why you are so protective of leadership ;to see it any other way would be very painful for you.
[Comment ID #27363 Will Be Quoted Here]
Read the 12th and 17th comments (by Rhema) to the original post. Or the 19th (by FSO).
More? Read on:
“Maybe I’ve got an anger problem because this kind of crap is sure ticking me off!”
“Who are these pentecostal popes and priests that are trying to run things?”
“Don’t be intimidated by a Pharisee like Joebibstudent. Would to God he wasn’t so self righteous.”
“blood-sucking weasel”
“we’re waiting for justice”
“The longer you argue with people like Joe the sicker you will become…Do you think this is God’s spirit talking to you? No, quite the opposite” (so…you’re saying I’m the spirit of Antichrist?…wow)
“A special punishment awaits him” (KRI)
“Sleazemore”
etc.
Statements that fairly drip with love. Does this sound to you like the words of those who have truly “forgiven from their hearts” (Matthew 18:35)??
So, who is to say, then? I mean, can we continue to re-hash, re-hearse, re-peat, re-tell, re-describe, and re-post the sins of the guilty and still claim to have forgiven them? Can we justify repeatedly calling out their names?…continuing to bring it all back to our collective remembrance by (again) decrying their terrible sins, and (again) describing whom (those dirty sleazebags) did what with whom, where they did it, the names of the churches involved, over and over again, hoping, even yearning for the day when they will pay, and pay dearly for what they have done, and then add that, oh, by the way, we love them?
What does God’s Word say? The definition of true, biblical love is detailed in 1 Cor. 13:4-5. (Quoted from various translations):
“Love…keeps no record of being wronged” (New Living Translation)
“Love…doesn’t keep score of the sins of others” (The Message)
“Love…takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]. (Amplified)
“Love does not remember the suffering that comes from being hurt by someone.” (New Life Version)
If this love and forgiveness are seen in the above posts, I’m not seeing it.
But, wait. I’m sick
You be the judge.
——————————————————————————–
(Rhema survivor said: “Heck if you haven’t made it clear to the top I’ll bet you are at least one of the head toilet scrubbers by now.”)
Not quite. I’m actually shooting for head greenskeeper…hopefully within six years. That’s my schedule.
(Rhema survivor said: “I can see why you are so protective of leadership”)
Chinch bugs, you know. Manganese. A lot of people don’t even know what that is. Nitrogen.
joe
thank-you joebib for demonstrating for everybody what happens when people ask qustions in thes types of legalistic,authoritarian, hierarical churches.(cults) MAY THE FARCE BE WITH YOU!
Back onto the topic of our good friend Doug Cotton, apparently he preached at City Church a week ago on The god of Breakthrough, a sermon title that has also been used by every other MaFIa pastor at least twice in the last year.
Anyone listen to it?
It’s here:
http://www.thecity.org/message/the_god_of_breakthrough/
I just listened to it, don’t waste your time. It seems like I heard it 100 times when I went to the city church.
I find it interesting he is preaching to the city church just after being fired for fits of rage. I guess what the bible says on leaders doesn’t matter so much…as long as they keep the tithe checks rolling in.
But it appears city church never believed his firing was justifiable (nor did MFI, et al)… so stands to reason spws would share his platform with him. Maybe spws feels he needs to support spdc in his endeavor to get a building of people to support him.
Maybe a supporter from a lingerie or or sporting store would suffice?
[Comment ID #27257 Will Be Quoted Here]
Was GB corrected from the BT pulpit only as far as you know?
(anna Litical said: “Was GB corrected from the BT pulpit only as far as you know?”)
anna, your question could be taken a couple of ways. What is it you’re wanting to know?
joe
You wrote GB was exposed in front of 2 to 3 thousand people at a BT meeting? Was he also exposed at a Rhema Fellowship meeting?
I guess I don’t understand why he was exposed from the BT pulpit, beings he was pastoring at Rhema Fellowship. What sort of accountability did he have to BT? It is my understanding that MFI stood for Ministers Fellowship International, I thought MFI was a helps ministry to pastors, to build relationally. Why did BT correct GB I guess is my question. What sort of jurisdiction did they have over Rhema Fellowship or GB?
GB left Idaho in shame after having sex with women in his church. He came to Bible Temple and DI who reformed him and sent him to a little church called Rhema fellowship. DI didn’t let the congregation know about his past because he was “reformed.” G.B. had sex with four women in the church. He went back to Bible Temple and DI who reformed him again. he was then sent out by DI to another small church. They didn’t tell them his past. He seduced more women and devastated the church. DI sent a known predator out twice and didn’t warn the congregations. GB made a tearful confession a bible temple about Rhema. There was never one made about Idaho or the Church after Rhema. They probably would have reformed and sent him out again but he had a heart attack and died.
Greviously, there were two pastors here on the Harbor that had sex with women in the congregations they pastored and both were affliated with MFI, GB and RH. Both had committed sexual sins prior to coming to these churches and men in leadership knew, DI and LD. Both of these men were chrismatic GB and RH.
Now we have DC, who has a power problem, the local elders try to bring correction and he is sent out again to start a new work and is endorsed by MFI.
Do you think looking good has anything to do with this, how about money and what about power?
You would think someone would get a clue. Seems like it’s high time these things are discussed.
[Comment ID #27403 Will Be Quoted Here]
I have described above how GB was exposed (the first time to my knowledge) from the pulpit at BT, before the official advent of MFI, or at least in its very early stages, when it was merely a loose affiliation of like-minded churches (about 32 at first, as I recall), most of which had been more or less sent out by BT, and was not yet the monolith it has become in our day.
I remember this was BT’s standard policy in regard to any pastors/churches who were, or wished to be, affiliated with BT, and who had came to KRI to resolve problems of this type. It was also practiced in regard to leadership within BT, and family members of KRI.
There were quite a number of former pastors and leaders who used to come to BT in those years, sometimes for similar sins, other times just for general problems, and sometimes for no other reason than simply because of pastoral burnout, whatever. Oftentimes they stayed, and eventually ended up on staff at PBC, became elders, or district pastors, or deacons/homeleaders/undershepherds, or were simply integrated into the general congregation.
I think this was just an honest attempt by KRI/BT to try and see these people become restored biblically, and to take application from passages like 1 Timothy 5:19-20, Galatians 6:1-2, 2 Timothy 4:11 compared with Acts 15:37-39, James 5:16, as well as Psalms 37:23-24 and Proverbs 24:16. And which, the flesh and human nature being what they are, didn’t always work out as planned.
Following the belief that all confession in general is good for the soul, when I was at PBC the faculty/administration came to us students and asked us all to divulge to leadership/counselors any on-going or previous sexual activities/sins, even if it had been done prior to becoming Christians.
They also counseled us to tell our fiancés/fiancées about all past sexual acts — although I recall there being some debate about this, as some of the leadership felt this would be going too far, and thought it necessary to inform him/her only if there had been a previous marriage, or an out-of-wedlock pregnancy.
joe
Joebib its sounds victim just like all the women that were preyed upon.
Joebib says:
DI integrated some of the pastors with sexual sin into the church as Portland Bible College Staff, elders, deacons, homeleaders and district pastors. Can you see over a long period of time what might happen as more and more people with sexual sin are brought into leadership?
Joebib showed the results here:
These were young men and women sent out by their parents and they are told to divulge every sex act they ever committed to some, not all leaders, who had sexual hangups. Even sins before you were saved when god made you white as snow and born again, no longer to dwell on pasts sins. My past sins are washed away by the blood Jesus shed for me.
I agree that if you are getting married you should let the person know if you’ve been married before or have had a child out of wedlock. But the rest of what happened to those bible students gives me the creeps.
Aberdeen Daily world on July 25, 2007:
The Aberdeen school board has agreed to lease the empty Alexander Young elementary school to Harbor City Church for $3000 a month s
tarting in September. The lease will run through July.
Note the name of the church.
Finally Speaking Out,
Perhaps Joebibs asked this question already, I rarely read his comments they’re too long. But have you tried talking to Dick Iverson specifically about these issues?
I just wonder if you have and been rejected or whether you don’t think it’s worth it.
MFI and/or wendell must be footing the bill.
How BORING is a church named City Church… Takes not much in the way of brains to create that name. Makes all these churches sound like a demonnation with city church in or as their name. HAHAHA… and they claim to all be independent churches.. What a crock
(Finally Speaking Out said: “These were young men and women sent out by their parents and they are told to divulge every sex act they ever committed to some, not all leaders, who had sexual hangups. Even sins before you were saved when god made you white as snow and born again, no longer to dwell on pasts sins. My past sins are washed away by the blood Jesus shed for me.
I agree that if you are getting married you should let the person know if you’ve been married before or have had a child out of wedlock. But the rest of what happened to those bible students gives me the creeps.”)
Yeah, it kinda gave me the creeps at the time, too. I, as was my habit in those days, which was that of trying to generally go against whatever it was that the PBS leadership was wanting me to do, told my counselor that I had already confessed ALL my sins to the Lord, and HE was the only one who needed to know about ‘em. Didn’t score many brownie points that day
joebib
I began to attend Rhema in 1978 proceeded to attend PBC for two years,
returned to Grays Harbor and spent another 14 years Rhema/CLF.
In the year 2000 I really wanted to basically end my life. I had some awesome experiences with God during this time, but CLF progressively focused on Doug and not Jesus. What saved my bacon was going out of town to Christain Conferences and Church Meetings. Many of these meetings were experiencing what they call the “The Toronto Blessing”
I also have read some awesome books/websites that have turned my broken world into a very healed life.
Book Revolution in the Church – Michael L. Brown
Dreaming with God – Bill Johnson
Apostles/Prophets and the coming moves of God by Dr. Bill Hamon
Releasing the prophetic Destiny of a Nation Dutch Sheets/Chuck Pierce
http://www.revivaltown.org (Has some awesome Links)
www. freshfire.ca (Signs and Wonders)
Lets Turn the Light On Bright for Grays Harbor
Sincerely,
Saved by Grace
I see from reading the web site for City Church of Seatle that We will be able to join the ( ON LINE ) City Church via the World Wide Web soon. Don’t have to attend a physical church any more, just check in on the Internet and of course pay your tithes on line. Oh and volunteer too.
Sounds like the perfect set up… no real relationships no responsibilities and all the pay offs.
Church in my Jammie’s….. lol….. what a joke!
I agree, I have a friend who just recently starting getting God TV. She lives in a remote location and started watching. Well she figured it was going to be simlar to TBN etc. Come to find out, it’s programming is nothing like TBN. Excellent ministries like Kim Clement, Rick Joyner, you can catch prophetic conferencs at the “Airport Vineyard”, men like John Paul Jackson. Not your normal christian programming. You can get God TV via direct TV. The ministry started in Europe.
She (my friend) starting going to conferences at “Gate Way church in Idaho”. We just went to Portland to be refreshed by Kim Clements prophetic voice. He was sick with food poisioning and wasn’t able to be there. However the prophetic anointing was in that place and we were blessed by another ministry, the guys name was Bob and he was from California. That’s all I know because we couldn’t hear when he pronounced his last name.
I am extreamly encouraged by what God is doing in his people. I truly believe although some may feel this blog is negative, I find it refreshing. Were challenged to think, voice what God has put in us, and be real.
We need Godly anointed leadership in the body of Christ and I don’t think it’s going to look the same as it has always been.
I see us some where in the future and we look much better than we look today!!!
A word of encouragement to you Portland. It was spoken ironicllay (Kim being sick) that Portland was going to be a city of healing. There were many people who where being healed of breathing problems last Friday night (7/20/07). I being one, only I got mine half way to Portland, I kid you not it lifted and has not returned since last Friday. Praise God.
I don’t know what God has for the Harbor but in my spirit I hear a sound of warriors. I hear a people who are ready to take back what the enemy has stolen, even from angry men, I hear an ekklesia speaking out, who are willing to go to the mountain. We don’t need DI, LD, DP, DC to go to the mountain for us, we can hear from God.
I don’t think we need to be in bondage anymore or fear that we aren’t good enough, smart enough, or anointed enough to hear from God. However somewhere in the back of my mind I’ve been told enough “not to touch God’s anointed”, or that I can be struck dead for even thinking these things!! Or that I have a spirit of Jezebel, or I’m one of the sons of Korah who’s going to be swallowed up by the earth! The other one is I’m committing spiritual adultry if I attend another church. Yes it’s real, someone was told on the Harbor that he was committing spiritual adultry for attending another church. Sadly he went to CLF, I don’t think he is attending church anymore. The one that really got me was that I cannot question authority. Talk about dying inside I was twisted inside and out. This is the kind of stuff that has been put on us and I want it off me!
Hey Joanna Reibel–I know you! We were at PBC the same time and I was just thinking about you. My email is karimichelle7@aol.com if you care to chat, and I can tell you who I am there. I’m sorry that things got so hard for you. I can relate as can most here.
Pretty interesting the way some of the leadership in the MFI churches are pushing the “authority” thing, and pushing it big. Like the thing anna lit mentioned about the person from Harbor.
When I was going to BT, I remember FD (before he became sp) going out teaching/preaching at other churches, and he would tell them that back at BT, they had no real problem if you wanted to leave there to attend another local church, where you felt more comfortable. I recall him saying their policy was “submit or split,” and that if you felt like you had to leave, then it was pretty much “Well, OK, may the Lord bless you then.”
But now, sounds like some of them have abandoned that and gotten into trying to resurrect a sort of modern-day version of the whole Ortiz/discipleship movement from the 70′s. That teaching was all the buzz back then, and spread like wildfire in local churches everywhere, especially when the New Wine guys in Florida — Simpson, Prince, Mumford — started endorsing it.
I was friends with some believers in that movement, and they were being pretty severely controlled. The leadership would tell them to consult their spiritual authority (usually an undershepherd/homeleader) before buying a car, or even an appliance, to clear it with them before enrolling your kid at a particular school, before you went out of town on a trip, and so on.
When they finally got out, quite a few of them ended up spiritually ruined due to the shock of not being able to handle the freedom after coming out from under that severe structure. It was just really sad.
joe
(catalyst said: “Perhaps Joebibs asked this question already, I rarely read his comments they’re too long.”)
ur loss.
try ritalin.
jb
[Comment ID #27437 Will Be Quoted Here]
So this submit or split thing, don’t you find that a bit intimidating? I mean if you split then you might be labled. If you have an “A” type personality and don’t give a rip your fine. So where are these MFI pastors picking this up at?
Could this be one of the anger issues DC is having with his elders? They are not “submitting” or agreeing with his actions so off he goes not dealing with his stuff. Starting a new church, come on! Return to your first love, Jesus, and be restored to your brothers. Whats more important. Sounds like keeping your power base open and starting a new church.
I have been in a few services with DB, and he is not a in your face kind of guy. Now he may have been religous in the past, I don’t know what he was like at Rehema Fellowship I never atteded the church, but I have heard from past members, and it sounds like he was. However that doesn’t mean he hasn’t woke up and is seeing what they’ve been into.
OK I’m just going to say it. For those of you who attend industrial church. Form and Function. First of all where is the scriptures does it talk about a pastor “stepping down”. Is that in the scriptures????? I don’t think so. This is a form that doesn’t exsist in the NT church. So you have DC “stepping down”, “stepping down” from what? A position, an office?
If DC was an elder, which I think he was, and the elders mutually submit to one another, and the other brothers in the “ekklesia” DC possibly could be corrected and restored. What is he loosing? Nothing. A position, an office? This has got to be about money and power why else would they be starting a new church?
The scripture that was quoted by the leaders from MFI used I Tim. 5:19 Do not receive an accusation aginst an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. I believe that was established.
It seemed to me MFI leaders were using this scripture to say that this was not done (there were not two or three witnesses to his anger outbursts). In other words there were no witnesses. Or are they thinking the only witnesses that are qualified are the uppers.
I just think the whole way things are handled in industrial church is crazy. Lets face it big church = big business. It’s not about the Lord and His glory, it’s about DC and his glory, MFI and their glory. Please we are not stupid sheep!
And as far as I am concerned it is about Truth vs. Loyalty. The uppers sell out the truth for their loyalty (which = money which = power which = looking good which = being right which = my agenda). How many times have you been told to lay down your own agenda. Come on DC, MFI, lets see you lay your lives down for your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
i couldnt agree more
“I was friends with some believers in that movement, and they were being pretty severely controlled. The leadership would tell them to consult their spiritual authority (usually an undershepherd/homeleader) before buying a car, or even an appliance, to clear it with them before enrolling your kid at a particular school, before you went out of town on a trip, and so on.
When they finally got out, quite a few of them ended up spiritually ruined due to the shock of not being able to handle the freedom after coming out from under that severe structure. It was just really sad.”
IF YOU ARE IN A CHURCH LIKE THIS THEN DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GET OUT!! LEAVE–RUN FOR THE DOOR.
I attended a church that had some similarities to many of the posts above. I can remember such fantastic comments like, “If you leave this church to attend another church then you are going backwards in God because we are further along in the truth.” I remember when I was considering attending PBC and the pastors of my church didn’t think any of their young people should have to leave the church to go to Bible College. I was told several times that if I were to go to PBC I was–get this–going in rebellion. Can you imagine going to PBC with all its rules and regs out of rebellion? I didn’t go that year but eventually went later. My home church expected that I had to come back but after a time at PBC I knew it was time to leave. The mindgames and control nearly wiped me out. I needed help bad but didn’t know where to turn. It took several years of wandering around before I was able to go to church again, but thank God I did not get into that atmosphere. Jesus died for you–not so that you would end up miserable and under someone else’s control–but so that you would have life. God wants to fill us with love, goodness, joy….not all this other garbage. Don’t fall for the mindgames!! Love the Lord with all your heart!!
If you are in a controlling or legalistic church, please leave, get some help and find a healthy church–there are some out there.
this is mfi flexing their muscle shutting up the sheep before we catch on .If no one follows they are out of a job and god might have to put someone in charge who truely has a heart for his people
mindgames said:
If you are in a controlling or legalistic church, please leave, get some help and find a healthy church-there are some out there.
For those of us on the harbor would you mind telling us where? lol!
(anna Litical said: “So this submit or split thing, don’t you find that a bit intimidating? I mean if you split then you might be labled. If you have an “A†type personality and don’t give a rip your fine.”)
Yes, absolutely, the whole scene was very intimidating for me when I was there, and even afterwards. It took me years, for example, to totally get over the shock and feeling of rejection I experienced from being booted from PBC (which I related a while ago under a different post).
And talk about intimidation! Shortly after my time at PBC, when I relocated to another BT affiliated church in another state, and grew a beard, I would shave it off whenever any of the BT guys would come to town to preach or teach, just so they wouldn’t think I had gone into rebellion or something. And then start growing it again the following Monday morning as soon as they left. Can you believe the kind of influence they had over — and need for approval they engendered in — us (former) students?
Thank God, when I was finally freed from that whole guilt-scene, I suppose it could best be described as an “epiphany†of sorts, a entire shift of paradigm. The realization that in order to please the Lord, I needn’t be under some sort of fallacious version of the OT legal system, and all that went with it, e.g., mandatory tithing and IC attendance, Sabbath- (Sunday-) keeping, dressing a certain way at church, and so on. HIS acceptance was all that I needed.
joe
I was talking to one of the elders wives from clf and she told me that dc seemed to be repentant and willing to do whatever the elders wanted him to do to make things right. That is until mfi got involved. After that his whole attitude changed. My husband also talked to someone else from clf and very close to dc who said that dc did have an anger problem and was willing to do whatever it took to work on it but the elders didn’t care they just wanted him out. He said that’s when he decided he was leaving with dc after he saw that it didn’t matter what dc did to resolve it they just wanted him out . He saw it as an inside takeover. Maybe if mfi had just stayed out of it there might have been a different outcome.
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I had one son who attended PBC for three years. When he left he was very dishartened with the church. He never really got into all the details of what went on there but we saw him become very cynical. There was alot of pressure to look good and so he charged alot of money on clothes while he was there.
It couldn’t be just a nice shirt and a nice pair of pants, it had to be brand name clothing. Clothing a starving bible college student couldn’t afford and we couldn’t afford either.
I’ve been around BT since 84 and it is very sad to see what it has become. Here on the Harbor it has left it’s mark and it has not been all good. I really see God waking us up. When I left industrial church I was so hungry for the word of God, for good relationships, a family.
The leader at the last industrial church I attended spoke about almost nothing but spiritual authority in relation to the kingdom of God for six years! Towards the end he almost never preached or prepared sermons from the bible. There was no participation from the body, no moving of the Holy Spirit. What is going on out there?
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I agree, that was why I had asked Joebib what jurisdiction BT had over Rehma Fellowship. Why did MFI get involved, because DC was affliated with MFI, soooo?
I thought biblically any corrections should be up to the local ekklesia, or “church” (for you truth vs. loyalty). So could it be DC tattled to his MFI group. Sounds like offenses to me. Question is why, if DC was so submissive and willing to do whatever his brothers asked him to do, why is he now starting a new church on the Harbor? I mean how many more new churches do we need to start on an offense again.
I think it is far more important to mend his relationships first, I also think maybe the CLF leadership needs to make more effort to see this accomplished. I mean has it even been a year yet? History wins, this is not going to be easy for him or his congregation nor the congregation at CLF. And if they play the old “oh we forgive each other game”, what a sham, God isn’t going to be pleased!!
Naw I think its all about power and money. DC lost his power base and then he wanted it back. I’ve seen this before. This eldership has walked together for years, they know one another. This is definantly an unresolved offense and a church split.
I wanted to repeat this post in this section, too:
RE-WRITE YOUR CHURCH CONSTITUION AND BY-LAWS!
There’s lots of concern about what the people of this congregation or others can do to prevent ongoing abuse and not have their legitimate concerns quashed by an outside organization that only gets the pastor’s point of view -like maybe the MFI.
One of the critical keys to protect the people is to RE-WRITE THE CHURCH CONSTITUION AND BY-LAWS! This will be tricky with MFI churches because, at last reading, they do not allow any pastor to join their fellowship who does believe in senior pastor “rule.â€This probably means, although not necessarily, that the church constitution in pastor-king churches is stacked in favor of the senior pastor. It certainly is at City Bible Church!
Such re-writing should be a section on checks and balances of power, the limitations of the senior pastor’s authority, and what will be done to remove him and upon what basis. This must be specific. I have just recently been involved in helping an MFI church reign in their senior pastor through just this method. I remember what Tom Cruise said in the movie The Firm about how corrupt power hides behind their lawyers.
I recommend that ICF and any other local church that does not have constraints on the powers of the senior pastor to read their present church constitution and find out what it would take to re-write or amend it to put more checks and balances into it to protect God’s people from ongoing abuse from those in powerful positions.
RE-WRITE YOUR CHURCH CONSTITUION AND BY-LAWS
David Mackin
What Crap!
If they don’t get a pay check maybe they will cut the crap! Laws, by laws, church constitution. Give me a brake! Kick the bastards to the curb that don’t cut the mustard…. I’m sick of reading this shit… When are you chickens going to stand up for yourselves and stop being victims?
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Understand what you are saying however it’s the way the game is played in these churches. When you are a “501C3 corporation” you are actually a state church and you have to play by the rules of the state. That includes by-laws and incorporation papers. It’s a business and that’s the way they are run. Unfortunately the church isn’t a family anymore. That’s why I’ve been saying form and function. If you form as a business you have to operate as one.
Para church ministries probably operate better in this system than the local church.
So Dave is right, this is the best way to play the game if you want to play it the state way.
I appreciate David Mackin addressing the individual church government’s that have been established on MFI philosophy. However, there is another form of church govenment here in Aberdeen, WA. that needs to be addressed. I believe it is called the Gray’s Harbor Minister’s Association. Some positive things for Jesus have been established by this group in the past. They actually as a group agreed not to married a couple if they had not been through pre-marital counseling. This really wasen’t a bad idea, but rather positive. However, now this group seems to be silent regarding Doug Cotton starting a new church. I have only heard second hand information. That is one pastor is for it, another no comment, while another says its a really bad idea. The pastors are not in agreement.
This really causes a lot of confusion in Aberdeen’s Christian Community.
I believe the head of the group is pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church and Doug Cotton’s bother Wayne is involved in the leadership of this church.
Is this group of leaders going lead the church of Gray’s Harbor in this situation? I am still waiting to see if they ever respond to the situation.
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You don’t understand what I am saying! your 501C3 corp….. can not run without money…. If the Christians sitting in the pews stop paying their tithes to ALL of these churches we are talking about they will have to close the doors. Bottom line…. Money….stop financially supporting abusive authorities in our churches period!
When we don’t speak up or keep tithing, we are in a sense agreeing to the arrangement
Anna says;So Dave is right, this is the best way to play the game if you want to play it the state way.
Ya they are all right, there’s nothing going on here, people don’t have anger problems that attend church, or sexual perverts don’t really hide among us.
Gee Whiz Guys we are all one big happy family. In fact don’t we all love and adore each other. I’m sure we recognize one another, if I could just get another good look at the back of your head I’m sure I’d know you.
Gosh I think I want to join your clubs. How can I sign up and where do I pay my dues? “TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADERS”
THATS JUST IT I DON’T WANT TO PLAY THE GAME!
legal-smeegal! this stuff just translates into more “legalism” for me! Just trying to beat them at their own game. It won’t ever work. You know why because it’s a HEART ISSUE that’s why. People get the truth if they want to. You don’t have to be a PHD to get your point across with normal caring people! Walk away and warn other innocent people to do the same!
What an amazingly sad state of affairs is reflected by this latest series of posts in this BLOG! It is not just the people being talked about (MFI, Doug Cotton, CLF, etc.), but everyone talking about them.
From what I gather, this CBC site was designed as a means of satirical commentary and even ‘judgment’ on the institutional church. There is very little satire, but plenty of sarcasm (which is not satire). There is little humor, but alot of bitter name-calling and vitriole. FROM EACH SIDE OF THE COIN.
Makes me think that the ‘church’ world outside of the ‘institutional church world’ is just as screwed up as the institutional church world themselves.
You guy/girls are all full of crap, both religious and non-religious crap!
And you sir, are a pretentious a-hole.
See what I mean!
Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I’m being repressed!
King Arthur: Bloody peasant!
Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That’s what I’m on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn’t you?
I actually thought that was kind of funny.
But whatever… anyway, your point is taken and let’s try to stay on topic.
[Comment ID #28155 Will Be Quoted Here]
LOL
My point is that NO one is being helped by this, no one or ‘system’ is being changed by this, but all are being infected with more the same nasty stuff that is the source of all the dysfunction in the institutional church.
I am reminded of C.S. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters and the dialoge between Uncle Screwtape and neophyte nephew (wow, nice alliteration) Wormwood. The advice from the Senior demon turned to the war (set in the 40′s during WWII).
When asked by Wormwood if he should have people against or for the war, Uncle Screwtape said that it didn’t matter either way, as long as people were fanatical about their view and stance.
It struck me that the Doug Cottons and MFIs and ICs of our world are ‘fanatically obsessessed’ about their way of doing ‘church’, networking, etc., and this BLOG is becoming just as ‘fanatically obsessed’ about countering them.
Could it be that both may end up in the same ditch of the blind but for different reasons?
Didn’t both churches called CBC start out with right and accurate motivations and desires to see ‘truth’ win out in the world?
And you can protest this bizzare union, but ‘me thinketh thou protesteth too much’.
Karl Barf Sinipson
Thats just it you have missed to point!
I always thought there was something courageous about fighting for freedom — whether spiritual or temporal.
If we follow KBS’s advice, we would learn to call complacency success. Freedom from tyranny would be too much to ask for. We should just quietly leave a tyrannical, despicable, and unbiblical church system and not warn anyone else. After all, we shouldn’t look out for anyone else. We just need to retreat and call ourselves healthy for it.
That mindset makes me sick. The true kingdom of God is not quiet or complacent. It is time for the real church to speak out in word and deed. Real, healthy Christians have opinions, and they should never shy away from stating them. The lying, anger, control, manipulation, etc., that seems so prevalent in many MFI churches (and others) is not of God. It is our duty at this time (and always) to speak out against those corrupting influences.
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Thank you! Very well said.
living john 15: The Grays Harbor Ministers association is probably going to do the same thing they did when Rod Hill split from Larry Dublancos church (Stepfordstone). In fact Doug Cotton was the speaker so he knows the drill. Get both congregations together in one location and then have Doug Cotton and his old elders “forgive” each other , hug and then be blessed as they each go their separate ways. End of story. Oh yeah, if anyone has a problem with that, that’s because you are bitter and unforgiving!
If you don’t like it Barf Simpson get off the blogone blog!
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Comparing this blog to C.S. Lewis?
Now, that IS satire!
(I’m up way to late preparing for a radio progam, and now laughing so hard I might wake others!)
Dan Wood
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Can I get an “AMEN!”?
[Comment ID #28228 Will Be Quoted Here]
AMEN!
Uh…no. We just say that cause it makes us look better.
Look here is the way it is. You all are upset at Bible Temple/City Bible Church/Dick Iverson/Frank Damazio for misrepresenting the truth of Scriptures and manipulating the ‘church’ through their heresy, control, and guilt.
Most of you have had first-hand personal experience of the above mentioned wrongs. Most of you have left CBC/Bible Temple as a result of the above mentioned wrongs.
NOTE: I would probably agree with most of the analysis of the institutional church given by most of you. There are many true things being said, but, sadly, there is little TRUTH here.
Here is my analysis of most of you here: YOU ARE ALL BECOMING USELESS AND ARE NOW ACCOMPLISHING NOTHING WITH THIS BLOG EXCEPT TO CONTINUE TO FEED THE VERY DSYFUNCTION OUT OF WHICH YOU CAME.
You do not realize it but you have become CO-DEPENDENT on CBC/Bible Temple/Dick Iverson/Frank Damazio. You are still there!
My advice, unsolicited and free: Shake the dust off, cut the umbilical cord, shut the BLOG down, remember Lot’s wife, and then after you get healed, join or start a healthy community.
You are welcome.
(Especially you DAVID MACKIN-What are you doing posting here!? You have so much to give, don’t let the good you have leak out through this decay-filled sieve)
(Pilgrim’s Progress type analogy:)
Travelers relied on a well-worn path through the mountains. An explosion created a split in the path, and there was no safe way to cross. Some travelers were going so fast, that they were unable to stop in time and fell into the deep ditch.
After this happened a few times, the survivors climbed out of the ditch and continued on. A few survivors decided to go back and post signs of warning. Then they searched for a new way through the mountains, hoping they could go back and help others form a new path.
~~~~~~~
Now KBS would tell us to tear down the signs and just let the unsuspecting travelers discover the ditch for themselves. Gee, hopefully they will survive and be able to keep going.
Karl Barth Simpson wrote: Especially you DAVID MACKIN-What are you doing posting here!? You have so much to give, don’t let the good you have leak out through this decay-filled sieve)
KBS: First, thank you for the compliment and the encouragement. I presently do use other venues to share my thoughts. The other day, when Joebibstudent commented on this blog that he was looking forward to giving my upcoming book against the mandatory tithe to some of the senior pastors he knows, I felt very pumped. Thanks, joe! Nevertheless, when I read your words “especially you DAVID MACKIN…”, I felt punished like a parent would try to use guilt to shame their eldest child. I do not feel superior to anyone on this blog.
To respond to your question as to why I post on this site: One of the reasons I post here is because I have been very surprised – if not shocked – by the number of active CBC and MFI members who regularly read this blog. Two months ago, I accidentally ran into two of them at a local department store. They may not all post articles or comments, but they read the blog! In my view, part of the reason that they read this blog is to have a private venting mechanism for their own thoughts and feelings that they have to “stuff” because of the dictatorial and oppressive environments of MFI-type churches.
If I’m right in this, I would credit the blog for providing such a healing potential for believers. In my view, one of the first things that anyone has to do to be healed from any form of abuse is to get in touch with -and openly express – their true feelings. As we know, MFI-type churches do not encourage the expression of personal feelings.
I am very grateful to the administrators of this blog who have given me the opportunity to share some of my thoughts with a much wider audience than I would otherwise be able to interact with at the present time since I have not had the time to build my own website/blog as yet. Either way, my heart is to try to bring the Father’s love and true spiritual freedom in Christ to all who want or need it. I cannot speak about the motives or hearts of others on this blog.
I take your excellent point about co-dependency seriously. Nevertheless, just because I participate on this blog, does not mean that I agree with all of the ways that people communicate on it. I try to avoid things like profanity, name-calling, sarcasm, ridicule, etc. because, generally, I do not feel that they lead to healthy or effective dialogue.
Just because others don’t follow the same guidelines, I don’t feel is reason enough for me to withdraw from the blog. If you would indulge me: I had a Christian brother tell me just the other day that the main reason he personally comes to the blog is to read my postings along with those of Tom Sparks. I’m not trying to say anything by that except that, in his case anyway, he doesn’t get into some of the other stuff.
I have not been able to find a perfect church or a perfect blog as yet because as soon a I walk through the door of a church or post one of my own comments to a blog, I have released to that environment my own sinful baggage.
It sounds like a lot of people who have come out of these cults have been harmed and are now concerned another cult is being born in aberdeen wash. The question is. Should we in the congregation be involved? I say no. That is up leaders in the true church. From reading past writings i agree that if we but forgive God will step in and handle the situation.
[Comment ID #28369 Will Be Quoted Here]
Who is the “true church”? Aren’t we all the One True Church? Aren’t we all the Body of Christ? If one member suffers, we all suffer. Who are these alleged “leaders” that you speak of? How do you define who is a leader capable of interceding on behalf of the body of Christ? What credentials must one have to speak up for those who are being deceived? This all seems at best like an attempt at vagueness to shun responsibility for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and at worst complicity in the abuse of Christ’s Body. This attitude disgusts me. The idea of sticking your head in the spiritual sand is pure cowardice and disgraceful.
God will step in and handle it? How does He do that barring some physical miracle? If we are the Body of Christ, are we not his mouth for speaking? Are not his hands to bring healing? Are we not the strong arms that bring both protection and punishment? Are we not the very instruments of Divine justice within and among ourselves?
Who here has ever had a tooth with a painful cavity? Have you ever said, “Tooth, I know you have an infected bleeding hole that is need of repair, but for the sake of the rest of my body, I am going to ignore the pain and treat you as if you will take care of yourself.” Eventually, you will go crazy from the pain, and your whole body will be affected even more – perhaps spread infection or rot your other teeth, and prevent you from eating and keeping the rest of your body healthy. No, no one would be so careless as to neglect a hurt and wounded body part and assume that someone else is going to take care of it for you. You’d try to do something yourself, or go to a doctor.
This web site may or may not be agreeable to you, but more people have been enlightened and freed through this than by “proper” means. Besides, when has it ever been “proper” to challenge church authority? There will always be people who complain about it no matter how much you tiptoe around issues. It’s nice to have a place where we can call stuff for what it is.
Wasn’t Jesus the one who said, “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off!”? If corrupt pastors cause the Body of Christ to fall into sin, shouldn’t we cut them off?
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LOL!
Darn, and here I thought we were sort of a free-form group therapy for people who have been trampled by uncaring pastors and their enablers.
That, and a clarion-call of warning to people who might fall into the trap that those pastors lay.
Oh well, I guess I’ll just go on being:
“USELESS AND ARE NOW ACCOMPLISHING NOTHING WITH THIS BLOG EXCEPT TO CONTINUE TO FEED THE VERY DSYFUNCTION OUT OF WHICH YOU CAME.”
just to upset the enablers who want to stifle free speech and criticism of the false god of pastor-worship.
Actually, your posts are one of the reasons I keep coming to this blog. There are several people who post very learned, scripture-based posts here, and I do learn a lot from those posters.
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FICM, that was elegantly stated, almost to the point of prose.
Bravo!
There is a very large difference between healthy dialogue on issues that have personally hurt us, and the giving free reign to venting unhealthy responses to those hurts. No where in Scripture are we told that we overcome our real hurts and woundings by pouring out our hurts on those who hurt us EVEN if it in under the guise of ‘warning’ against dangers and exposing theological heresy both doctrinal and practical.
Instead we should all do what David did when he heard that Saul had been killed: He sang the song of the bow, celebrated the good that Saul did, and in so doing avoided the hidden poisons of verbally killing his legitimate enemy.
If all dialoguing here would take some time and ‘sing the song of the bow’, they might be able to truly dialogue about the theological issues in such a manner that might be able to be heard above the reactive hurts.
Unless we can build a better ‘church’ we are no better than those who have built the last one. We will never build the better one if we are still tainted by the very hurts that have driven us to leave the institutional church.
My point regarding you David Mackin, is that the temptation to ‘expose’ the ‘truth in love’ may be too great here when in fact it is not really ‘truth in love’, but true hurt-based recollections of the past that only continue the vicious cycle of hurt and dysfunction.
Reforming Heathen said: Actually, your posts are one of the reasons I keep coming to this blog.
RH: Thank you for your kind words; they really encourage me.
Karl Barth Simpson said:
Excellent points KBS, I said the very same thing a while back, both in regard to the fallacy of trying to overcome our hurts by attacking others, and the example of David and Saul. Glad to see we’re on the same page, brother.
Yes, precisely.
-joebib
David Mackin said:
Thank you, Dave, for the kind words, glad I could help motivate you.
Also, thanks for that email (subject: “a compliment”) you sent me the other day. I am planning on giving you a reply next week (we’re leaving for Tahoe this morning for an extended bicycling vacation) as I have a few private questions for you, but suffice to say your words, as well as what the other brother said, were encouraging.
Which is why your insightful posts carry the weight they do.
Which is one of the reasons I come here, as well as to see what’s daily being fomented among those on the cutting edge of sarcastic/sardonic Christianity
It’s just really too bad Tom felt compelled to leave, as his biblical knowledge, insight and wisdom are sorely missed, more than people realize. It’s all too easy — and common — to encounter those with a grocery-list of emotion-laden complaints about the never-ending stuff that offends and ticks them off…I can read stuff like that on literally hundreds of other blogs all day long.
At the risk of sounding obsequious, let me say that to have the chance to learn lessons and glean insight from those of you who have had a mature, vibrant walk with the Lord for decades, as well as who have been involved with ministry and know both sides of the coin, not to mention your exemplary lives, is just invaluable.
All the more reason why YOU need to post more around here, brother Dave
-joebib
I love being on the cutting edge…now that’s a compliment.
I agree too. I like to hear about the wonderful things that are happening to our brothers and sisters. No one likes to hear about the pain and suffering of others. If we bring our pain to god he can put it under the blood. Please people can we just talk about the goodness of god. Along with joebibstudent and dave Mackin that is why i come to this blog also. If we would only listen to church leaders like MR. Mackin, Dick Iverson Wendell smith, we would be better off. Yes if you are wondering i do attend Bible Temple, so i am somewhat biased. Keep up the good work dave.
Then go visit: http://www.christianmilquetoast.com
Telling people what they can and can’t talk about, that they can only talk about what is acceptable to you, is the very type of religious control and overlording that people here have fled from.
Are you that blind, frodo?
joebibstudent wrote: It’s just really too bad Tom felt compelled to leave, as his biblical knowledge, insight and wisdom are sorely missed, more than people realize.
joe: I passed your kind remarks on to Tom and he sincerely appreciated your words of encouragement. He asked me to give you the address of his website: http://www.fpmin.com.
Have a great vacation.
Tom has a blog on his site why don’t you guys go over there. and kiss each other’s rear’s frankly your making me sick.
My guess is: David Mackin is….. Joe bib and Tom. lol
Sounds like you want us to sit at you frodo and mackins feet so we can but learn the wonders of god. My god joe get off your knees and show some dignity. I’m afraid you are going to propose to Dave at any second. The visual scares me to death. Dave, quit encouraging him.
Tell you what, after the people that I criticize are dead and buried, I won’t speak a word against them.
How’s that?
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You’re very welcome. Thank you for teaching me and opening my mind.
Thanks, you made me LOL.
-joebib
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Glad I could be of help.
FWIW, one of the definitions of “cutting edge” is as follows:
“The position of greatest importance or ADVANCEMENT; the LEADING position in any MOVEMENT.”
I have emphasized these words to show the inherent idea of progress.
When progress ceases, the following word may come into play:
back·wa·ter (bkwôtr, -wtr)
n.
“A place or situation regarded as isolated, stagnant, or backward.”
Hopefully, RP, this blog will strive for the former and not become the latter, perhaps through the branching out into other, though related, areas of discussion, much like your Matthew 5 thread, for instance.
YMMV
-joebib
I’m amazed after 24 years you are still talking about all this like it was yesterday. Move on people and let God be God!!! Have Jesus deal with your bitterness and unforgiveness. There are no perfect churches and if there was as soon as you (we) came it wouldn’t be perfect anymore. We had something very hurtful happen to us when standing up for righteousness. We have moved on, forgiven and let go. We pray blessings on those involved. Rehashing it all doesn’t help (by the way I was there)…all it does is open the wound and cause it to fester. I know all the people involved even to the person who didn’t know DB, I know who that was. What happened to the integrity of peoples hearts? What happened to the part of God’s armor that has to do with peace? I go to bed each night looking forward to what God has for me tomorrow. It’s peace that surpasses our understanding. It’s healing, it’s refreshing and one walks in God’s favor, abundant life and truly blessed. I pray that you find such.
Exactly that is what our brother bryan counted on. You are right on. We don’t need to go after these people, they will die someday and our problem is solved. It is not up to us. What can we do anyway. We are few they are many. Doug, Rod, Gail, Tom please forgive us.
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Wise words, indeed.
-joe
I would like to add an additional comment. As for Doug (and his wife) who I’ve known since high school. He is an upstanding man one with much integrity. A man of God!! He is simply very black and white. He has a prophet mentality or personality. (In fact I’ve prophesied next to him and the words were comfirming…Bill Whalen included.) I know the personality well. My husband has it and oldest son. Sometimes it may grate on you but our personalities (mine is compassion) grates on them, too. We need to accept others that are different. We love Doug (and his wife) and wish them great success in doing what God has for them. I wish CLF great success too. People respond to different ministries. All can draw people into God’s kingdom. I know that’s what my brother’s television station is for on the Harbor.(channel 20) So let’s just all get along! I would absolutely love Wendell to sponsor a church here in Alaska or BT or Doug for that matter. Bring a good church up here. We need it!
They started off with 32000 soldiers but 22000 were afraid. that left but 10000 to carry on.That number was pared down to the 300 who defeated the Midianites. Thank God for the 300. Thank God for the brave Catholic victims that have now exposed 10000 abusive priests and still counting. Thank God they weren’t silenced by church apologetics. How many of us would have been with Gideon and the 300 or the brave Catholics who fought back against corrupt leaders? my guess is not very many. I’m sure Falwell, Jim Baker, Haggard, Jim Jones etc. were very nice men too and in their youth did great works for God, but i’m glad they were exposed. It’s comfortable to live in apathy where where we can live out our life in relative peace. It would be a lot easier to say ” Let’s not rehash this” ” lets move on people” “forgive and forget” ‘get over it” Apathy, oh sweet apathy, neither hot nor cold, it’s just right, like baby bears porridge
Dear Finally Speaking Out…isn’t it living life with a good report? We had a pastor up here that lied and spoke evil about everyone else what’s the greater sin? Isn’t it better to let go and let God deal with the problem? The people that we ran into…we stood for righteousness and exposed them. They basically told us to get lost. I could stew about it. Let it intertwine with my heart and be miserable. I’m very content and happy because I’m letting God deal with the people. God is pouring out His blessings upon us because we did what was right. I could have a disqust and hate for them but you know that would only hurt me and they would go on their merry way and win for that matter. By the way I know who you are FSO and I appreciate you greatly. You were a great brother to me! I always knew that you were thoughtfully looking out for me while I was at BT. You are welcome to visit up here, ya know? God’s not done with you, ya know.
Where at in Alaska? I visited Kethican long ago
Palmer near Hatcher’s Pass…P.S. I thought DC was your friend, brother
I find it hard to believe that FSO is BS… cause BS in real life seems to be full of bull and rather embarrassing how he has treated fellow Christians and all his political misdealings.
Gosh, what happened to restoration…which all Christians should walk in.
While I was in Portland, he would watch out for me and protect me. I knew if anyone treated me bad he would have come to my rescue. Even when I was dating my husband…if anything had been wrong…he would have stood up for me. Are we talking about the same person? Yes, I know he messed up a bit. Does that label have to stay with one for life? I think not.
I would rather think the best of a person and error on that side. When I stand before Christ at the end of my life, I certainly want God to say good stuff about me. I was just thinking that I had this web site figured out…I guess I’m still figuring.
I understand forgiveness and second chances…but I don’t understand why people think it is wrong to report a crime and to seek out punishment for that crime if the person who committed it is a religious leader. Again–sexual molestation is a CRIME. Being rude, offensive, misleading, dishonest, etc–while those things are bad they are not crimes and I have no opinion on whether they should be exposed…but molesting a child is not excusable. It is a crime punishable by law and no one should be exempt from that.
Terri:
Years ago an investment banker in my hometown was awarded the local citizen of the year award. A short while later, news broke that this upstanding citizen had actually embezzled funds from some of his clients. He was disgraced and formally charged. He expressed his regret, served time in prison, and has by now returned to society.
Was he sincerely sorry for what he did? I believe so.
Do I forgive him for what he did? Yes.
Will I ever forget his name and what he did? No.
If someone asked me today if they should invest their money with him, what would I say? No, they shouldn’t.
My points:
First, there can be more than one side to a person.
Second, some people on this forum may be bitter and unforgiving. Others have perhaps already forgiven. Others, still, may be somewhere in between. Forgiveness is something we should all strive for.
However, the past, maleficent actions of many pastors should never be forgotten. The ongoing discussion serves as a warning not just to people in those pastors’ current congregations, but to all Christians. Perhaps the authority structures (if there are any besides the theocracy of the pastor) in those churches should consider more stringent forms of accountability to compensate for a pastor’s past areas of weakness. Doing so is not unforgiveness, it is wise. Prudence dictates that taking a few preventative steps now is much better than remedying future abuse after it has already occurred.
Terri: It is nice to hear your loyalty to the ones you love and care about. However your harshness and indifference to the ones they have abused concerns me.
In order to judge a situation rightly you must hear both sides. It is amazing to me that without exception people like you never ask a person that “sounds” bitter and unforgiving what happend to them to cause them such pain. You say that your gift is compassion. I don’t think so. If it is, it is selective. Because the church is full of people like you, hurting people have never had a voice. I have found a place here where I am heard and others care about what happened to me even if it was 24 years ago. To me that is the love of God.
So Rhema survivor did you read all my comments. It seems like you focused on one thing. I understand what hurting is all about…but holding onto things and continuing to talk about them doesn’t hurt any one but you.
By the way, since I was there, I probably know who you are. And I probably know many of you. So is the definition of abuse – “not done the way you wanted.” I know what Gail did, but Doug isn’t in the same category at all…I’d stake my life on that fact. (I was also thinking that you all need to listen to Joel Osteen for a while.) Anyway back to the subject, how can holding onto something be good for you. You all say that you are experts at the Bible (let’s see even critical of everything Frank says) but where is that in the Bible. (By the way being compassionate doesn’t mean that all sense of right and wrong and the what the Bible says is thrown out the window.) So you found a place where you all can talk about things…then why is there slander in this web site. You can’t stand Gail, Dick, Wendell, Doug, Bill and whoever…so is my brother in that group – he brings people together and helps them – oh, ya, isn’t that biblical. When you are filled with gratefulness, did you know there is no room for a critical spirit. (I’m sure you can find all sorts of fault with that part)
My heart is pure to what I’m trying to say. I’ve gone through some tough things but like I said I have CHOSEN to move on and pray blessings on all the people that have wronged me. Guess what, many of those people have come to us and asked forgiveness. You say, you’ll never forget…I do agree with that part…but I also don’t need to dwell on that. It’s much easier letting God do what needs to be done. I know of a lady here that couldn’t keep her mouth shut about everything that happened. Guess what, she died last year.
You can tear apart everything I have said. That’s fine. Have fun with it. But because of the path that I have chosen, I am happy, content, and fulfilled. I hope you all have a good life, really. It’s the time of year to put a moose in the freezer, run a dog team w/ my Iditarod friend, and enjoy my family. Alaska is worlds away and I love every minute of it!
I agree with Terri . You people need to stop talking about the abuses in the church or GOD WILL KILL YOU. signing off Wend (i mean mark 9:42)
This is, by far, the most ridiculous-stupid-funny thing that anyone has posted on this blog.
EVER. (Including the bad spelling rants by City Church interns.)
RP, if you ever do another blog post of the year in review, you MUST include this comment.
Obviously, you do not wish to move on with your life. You’d rather cut well meaning, sincere Christians. You are critical of everybody and everything.
I thought about you while running one of the dog teams today and I just felt very sad indeed for all of you. One of the dogs I put into the team was a yearling…I put him next to his brother today. His brother is just coming off a pulled leg muscle. We weren’t even out the driveway when the well dog was running exactly like his brother. I had to stop the 4-wheeler and move the dog to run next to a 4 year old dog who has ran in many Iditarods and was a finished. He immediately ran to his full potential and so did the dog that is coming off the strained leg muscle because I did the same and put him next to a more mature dog. I had an awesome 10 mile run. The slowest dog will ruin a team but when they are all harnessed together with the best it produces great results. You can all laugh at me and criticize me all you want…not sure how godly that is…but obviously I must have hit a nerve for all of you to respond and lash out. By the way, I don’t need to hide behind fake names…my last name was Gill before I was married and I choose to walk in a more excellent way. Bless all of you, I mean that…I do indeed hope that one day your hearts will be soft.
But as for me, I love Bible Temple, CLF, and the City Church. And esp. the men and women behind the names. I hope the best for Doug…his wife was a bridesmaid in my wedding. I chose to walk upright!
There’s a real common theme of hypocricy in the comments of those who oppose this blog. For instance:
We have heard nothing but critical comments coming from Terri….well critical and weird (was anyone else confused by her dog story?).
Terri my dear, you have been equally critical of us as we have been of CBC et al. This does not bother me at all, you are welcome to your opinion and we are glad that you choose to share it with us…however…you do need to know that at the very least (the absolute very least) you are just as bad as we are (by your own standards)…if it turns out that you are also wrong…well…we’ll let your dogs decide what to do about that.
Thanks for sharing.
I was going to respond to you Terri but my clock just struck 8 o’clock. All i could hear was cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo. It confirmed what i was thinking. I took my dogs out today for a walk too. The young one by my side, tugging to be set free to run and the old one in his fourwheel Jeep stroller, only wanting to lounge while i pushed. I didn,t think of you even once. Man, after reading this I sound like you. I guess prescription drugs can be as dangerous as those off the street huh Terri.
You win! You are the rudest. Hope your happy.
I apologize Terri. The real winner is you
I wish I could talk to you all face to face. You people are way above me.
I’m done…you have left me crying. I’m so sorry that I found this.
I’m all for forgiveness and sweetness and light. It makes one’s life a tiptoe through the tulips (right next to Joel Osteen).
But that is not the point. As one goes whistling off into the sunset feeling all wonderful about how they have forgiven person A and person B — well, person A is still preaching a false gospel to immature Christians, and person B is still abusing his uninformed or naive flock.
Over and over in the gospels it says, “Jesus sat down and TAUGHT …. ” In Acts 2 is says, “they continued in the apostle’s doctrine …” There is a very strong emphasis in the NT on importance of doctrine; it determines paradigm. The NT is actually quiet harsh in regards to false teachers.
Paul did not refrain from naming names, and the NT is full of warnings against certain behaviors and how to respond to those who live in habitual sin without repentance.
So forgiving person A and person B may be personally rewarding, but it leaves many in danger of future deception and abuse. How is that good?
Thanks guys! this was the funniest yet….made me crack up tonight! lol
Sorry Terri…..after reading all about your wonderful life… I just have to say. My life turned out better…lol the Lord has also blessed me and probably everyone here…have you noticed how you feel the need to boast about yourself as if your more worthy than the rest of us? I lived in Alaska too. That place is nice to visit but man talk about behind the times… I don’t envy you a bit..
by the way your brother’s tv station needs something worth watching on it…bore you to tears, just an observation I tried to watch it a few times.
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God killed her because she couldn’t keep her mouth shut? I’ve heard a lot of comments on this sight, but that comment really ticks me off! I had a pastor tell my husband that my son was killed in a car accident because of something he (my husband) must have done!!! You know what that pastor got cancer of the mouth!! Literally!
I think I better join the local health club and take Dave Minors advise and see Terri on the ends of the bar bells. Oh by the way I’m going to go clean my bathroom now very, rigorously.
Terri said;
I go to bed each night looking forward to what God has for me tomorrow. It’s peace that surpasses our understanding. It’s healing, it’s refreshing and one walks in God’s favor, abundant life and truly blessed. I pray that you find such.
pee-yew!
What makes you better? Because your walking upright now? and how were you walking before? On all four’s?
This is the same exact attitude the church has had.
You need to move on, the Lord isn’t a respecter of persons.
You need to try some thing new. This didn’t work years ago and wont work now. and we are not going to go away or keep our mouths shut as long as the leadership is misleading the Lords Flock! We will speak out.
your out of line here!
We are not bitter, but we are sick of being judged by judgemental, holier then thou people who think they are better some how. Gees Get Over Yourself! get off your high horse, where is your mercy? You’re the one who is mean spirited! We are going to be bumped off if we don’t keep our mouths shut? That is a perfect example of the crap you have bought into.
I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut, I wiil keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut , I will keep my mouth shut, I will keep my mouth shut…………………………
Could someone please pray this curse off of me?!!!!
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Curse? I’ve been waiting for the cancer and boils to break out after Terri’s comment about “the woman who died for not keeping her mouth shut”. I felt like it was close to a curse. That’s why it ticked me off so much.
When I heard that the pastor who got cancer of the mouth (the one that made the comment that my husband must have done something to cause my son to die in his car accident). Sinner that I am, it crossed my mind that he might have been smitten by God for what he said. However my husband reminded me, he smoked cigars.
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Awww I miss the interns. They had much more imagination, and they didn’t cry as much.
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Came across this while looking for a teaching by Frank Damazio.
It has been our experience with MFI in Australia to do the same thing disregard the truth and put the leaders up as never being abusive.
Its always the people who are wrong.
A very well respected member went to the head of MFI only to be betrayed by taking sides.
Gods does justify when we trust Him for the outcome
I was in WA last month to visit family and remembered the CLF situation in Gray’s Harbor. Did some googling tonight and came across this:
The old web site is no more, apparently for sale.
The church still shows up in searches, but Google maps shows it a Foursquare church now.
http://gbiz.org/Washington-Yellow-Pages/Aberdeen/Grays-Harbor-County/Christian-Life-Fellowship/3605380111/index.htm
Meanwhile, Doug Cotton’s new church, “Harbor City Church” ( http://harborcitychurch.org ) survives.
Strange, ain’t it?
justin,
over the past few years, I have visited your site and have been impressed with your dogedness (sp) to expose those who you feel are less ingenuous in thier behavior. I am certain that there are and have been many folks who have felt wronged by those at CBC or shocked by the behavior of those in self proclaimed authority. Challenging these people is healthy and I am very impressed with your tenacity (sp). Live long and prosper. Never shut up
)
Thanks, Marlene. I really appreciate the vote of confidence.
I genuinely enjoy writing this blog. Sometimes I feel like I repeat myself and say the same things over and over again. But as long as people keep reading, then I’ll keep writing.
Thanks so much for the support.
-Justin
by the way, I know ALL of the people that you speak of here on your blog, VERY WELL…:)) what would you like to know?
)
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I don’t mind if you repeat yourself. This has been a great blog – an opportunity to say the things that are not acceptable at home, or in the church. To be honest about one’s inhibitions and concerns – without worrying about what others will say or how they’ll condemn or not. It’s the strangest thing – that one needs to find that in a fellowship of people who don’t even know each other… yet those who can relate. I think that’s a brilliant thing, and a great help to many out there – even beyond the ones who post. Goodness, it took me a couple years before I wrote my first post. People have probably guessed who I am, but I’m growing in the Lord, am finally “loving” being a follower of the Lord, and am doing NONE of this (or whatever I do) for show or to follow the crowd. It’s the most peaceful, joyful, contented, and secure feeling. I’m serving Jesus, because I want to serve Jesus, and because He first loved me. So many other reasons, but I know, that I know, that I know… my name is written in the Book of Life.
‘Scrup,
You are correct. Back in 2006, Doug Cotton left (or was forced to leave, for good reason) CLF. He then went to his City Church friends and complained. They set him up with Harbor City Church in Aberdeen, which his faithful from the CLF congregation started attending.
The remainder of the CLF congregation tried to make a go of it, but the board of elders suffered from indecision, inexperience, and ineptitude. They had to seek counsel from a friend — the director of the local Foursquare district.
Through a series of events, the CLF congregation ultimately voted last year to become a Foursquare church.
So, CLF no longer officially exists and in its place is Grays Harbor Foursquare Church. But this isn’t a completely new church — as if CLF disbanded and this is a new venture. It was a pretty smooth transition, and most of the remaining CLF’ers have continued attending the Foursquare church.
Thank you for the update, Tiresias. I hope there’s been healing and that the Foursquare affiliation is going better than the MFI deal did.
You didn’t elaborate on the indecision and inexperience comment, but I imagine all the saber rattling from the MaFIa bunch probably rattled them good. Cotton obviously had a cult following who no doubt created distension … and the elders probably felt some obligation to try to make everyone happy, which was no-win for them. Every person who left CLF for Cotton’s church a blow for them …
When I was a kid, the church I attended had a great pastor who loved the Lord. One old lady complained to the elders for months, until finally the Elders convened a meeting to talk about multiple reports they were getting about the pastor. They went to executive session, asked the pastor to leave, and one by one the elders told the same complaint, each saying that they were sworn to confidence about their source. God bless my old man, an elder, said “BS – we’re in executive session – the identity of the complainer and specifics of the complaints will be disclosed or we won’t entertain them” … one by one, the elders went around the room and identified the SAME person making the complaint – a bitter old woman who was known for stirring up trouble. With that, they dropped the matter.
It always amazed me how dysfunctional that all was – their sense of privacy protected the complainer at the expense of the pastor. It could have just as easily gone the other way, as seen in the CLF situation.
If anything, the church should be relational – people seeking to cultivate healthy relationships – no gossiping and all that – and as scripture indicates, where someone is not endeavoring to live at peace with the brethren, bringing witnesses into the mix to help resolve the situation, amicably and honestly.
Eventually, the bitter old woman got the congregation riled up against the pastor and he was ousted. Personally, after having experienced that sort of thing when I was first saved, done to the man who had led me to the Lord, I had hoped that CLF would have prevailed in their action with Cotton – that the congregation would have banded together …
But apparently the Lord uses such situations to do a little weeding …
I am glad to see the congregation is worshiping under the Foursquare banner … and hope for their continued healing and blessing.
Yes, going through all that we did was a horrid expereince.
The church (CLF), after Doug Cotton’s firing, tried to change the government to more of an elder led format. It was a tough transition, as it is with any church that has the supreme leader mentality. It was becoming a reality. Then politics ensued. They (CLF Elders and Fousquare District pastors), put us on a sabbatical with the promise of dealing with the governmental situation upon their return. We were told our job was safe as lead elders, only to, behind our backs, decide to go denominational and remove us from our position. A few vocal folks didn’t want an eldership led church-and so gained leadership position and changed it back to the senior pastor format. Foursquare saw an opportunity to get a franchise in Grays Harbor and pulled some very disappointing strings to get it. The retired Foursquare pastors who came in to give us a supposed “break” for three months, ended up taking the church, even though they insisted to us privately they would NEVER do so. Behind the scenes they manipulated and told different stories to different people. In the end Foursquare got their franchise and the former CLF is oblivious to what happened behind the scenes. In my opinion they were sold a load of crap. And they bought it. Again, in my opinion, t’s all about money & power, it has nothing to do with God’s blessing or anointing. After we were forced to resign, (we were offered a position, but they didn’t know exactly what it was or what it paid) they gave us three months’ severance pay to keep us quiet, but honestly, I would have traded the money for some resolve and reconciliation. I mean would you really want to work for people who went back on thier word to you when you needed them most and had no confidence in you? I need to make sure and say that we were grateful to the folks that gave us the help- most of them had no idea what really went on and loved us. IT was very nice of them. We had nothing else to go on, I was planning on staying at the church the rest of my life. But in the end the leadership apparently felt they did the right thing, even though it devastated us. I haven’t heard but from a couple of them since that time. We served the Lord in that congregation for over 11 years, we lost our ministry, our friends and what felt like our family- All because we decided to stand up for what was right and put an end to abusive pastoral authority. We just were part of the ripple effect of that type of problem. People asked me if I would do that again, and I can honestly say, of course, Jesus doesn’t want his sheep being abused. I don’t regreat one bit of the decisions we made as a group to keep people safe from harm.
If I would have known the price my family and were going to pay for it, I might have done some of it differently. Not sure what, but I certainly NEVER want to go through that again. I have been very naive to the ways of church politics. After seeing what really goes on behind closed doors with MFI and Foursquare, I want NO part of it. Oh my. The stories I could tell you. yikes!
I hear that is normal after a church goes through a crisis like CLF did that there a lot of knee jerk reactions. That they look for a savior and someone to get them to feel safe again, so I’m sure that this was never as personal as I took it. I just happened to be in the position of one of the leaders that was visible, so I got the brunt of it. It doesn’t really make it feel any better.
I don’t look at church like I used to. It was a real lesson in the danger of putting people up on a pedestal. I didn’t even want to go to church for awhile. Now my family and I go out of town, 45 minutes away to a church that is more team orientated. They seem to have a healthy and safe place for us to just go and listen. I don’t know if I will ever get back into leadership in the church, it’s the hardest thing I have ever experienced emotionally. I love ministering, but I don’t know if I will ever put myself in a position of getting the crap beat out of me in the name of Jesus again. Maybe time will help, but after two years and no resolve, I think I will just stick to loving Jesus and trying my best to love others around me.
I do a podcast now with my wife and we try and reach the un-churched with the message of the gospel. We went from talking to a couple of hundred a week at the church to over 9000 a month worldwide. I guess you don’t have to have fancy church buildings, elder boards and big budgets to spread the faith. hmmmm.
Now I wonder if posting this on the blog I will get a letter from an attorney? I am a little gunshy these days.
Rick
No. But you do need broadband.
Thanks for the update, Rick.
Rick sounds like we went through the same thing. the stories we can share I am sure. Blessings to you! how can I listen to your podcast?
It’s on Itunes, search for Take Him With You, or you can go to our archive- http://www.takehimwithyou.com/archive
It would be really nice to talk to someone about it all. I guess I’m evil for not being one of the “good ol’ boys” or because I tell the truth about what happened I’m bitter. gee whiz.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Hey Rick, If you read the post back at the beginning at this thread you will see that the same thing happened to us at the hands Doug Cotton and his eldership. I don’t know if you were part of his eldership at the time but like the old saying “What goes around, comes around.”