Ousted Pastor Returns to Grays Harbor
Posted on July 10th, 2007 by catalyst into the The City Church category"Guess who's back? Back again. Cotton's back. Tell a friend."
As some of you may recall, several months ago Doug Cotton was removed from his church Christian Life Fellowship on charges of abuse. Many of Mr. Cotton's parishoners felt he behaved in an inappropriate manner, and they convinced the elders of CLF to remove Cotton from his pastoral position.
Mr. Cotton felt wrongly ousted and went to Minister Fellowship International, asking for their help. Wendell Smith, who is the co-chairman of MFI, threatened to sue the church if they did not re-instate Mr. Cotton.
The elders balked, and a reader offers this insight into what happened next:
Subsquently, Wendell held a meeting with the CLF elders. During the meeting he asked the elders to trust him. When it was pointed out that he threatened to sue the church and the elders individually, he admitted his threats were a bluff.
Now, according to this same reader, MFI is going to re-instate Cotton in a new church in Gray's Harbor.
I don't have a problem with Doug Cotton starting another church. If he can convince people to follow him, than so be it.
I do, however, have a problem with MFI backing an abusive pastor over the church elders and its members. I am rather surprised that some ministers continue to maintain membership in MFI, an association that puts power over accountability. (Yeah, I'm talking about you Bob MacGregor).
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Will Doug Cotton be able to convince the residents of Gray's Harbor that he's changed? Will anyone in MFI ever stand-up to Wendell Smith?
Stay tuned.
July 10th, 2007 at 8:05 am
That’s the beauty of MFI…they don’t work with churches, they only work with pastors. Who cares if one of their pastors is abusive, so long as he continues to pay his dues.
It’s like the Bible says: Loyalty and Money will cover a multitude of sins - Damazio 8:10 (and also found in the Gospel of Iverson).
July 10th, 2007 at 8:08 am
I actually LOL’d.
July 10th, 2007 at 9:34 am
A little competition is healthy for the body of Christ!
Why, I can hardly wait to hear what the local news paper will have to say about it!
Does this latest move have anything at all to do with the exaltation of Jesus Christ in / around Grays Harbor? Or is it just the exaltation of Doug Cotton and MFI?
July 10th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Wow! I guess we now know what Wendell meant when he said the elders actions would ‘certainly cause a church split’! Now MFI is starting a new church with Mr. Cotton as pastor in the same small town. That looks like a split to me.
July 10th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Well, maybe the silver lining here is that with SPWS’s boy back in a church in the Harbor, he’ll pony back up resources to help the poor, which he yanked previously. Yes, no?
July 10th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
I did not realize that MFI was in the business of starting churches.
Maybe SPWS having a fake doctorate enables him?????
July 10th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
I think the money comes from the general fund to pay the dues, so really the church is paying for the abusive MFI pastor in more ways than one, it appears.
July 10th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
By the way, has anyone looked at the MFI website and seen the fee structure that MFI charges monthly, a lot of money to pay for abuse.
July 10th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
This is at the bottom of the page of the MFI website under the bookstore link. And there is a DONATE NOW button you can push to start the process…
I hope this doesn’t take away from the tithes for CBC here
July 11th, 2007 at 6:29 am
I wunner when we’ll see “Ousted Pastor RE-Ousted”?
July 11th, 2007 at 7:55 am
On a different note…. on you-tube.. check out “cannonball baptism” it is too funny!!
July 17th, 2007 at 1:56 am
I know you guys a really shocked by all this especially since it just happened to you .But you really should go back a few years( oh yeah it was all swept under the rug!) when Portland Bible Temple and DI got GB out of town and then put a gag order on us so we wouldn"t gossip. Was he really sleeping with all those women or was I just listening to a bad report? Or how about TH that DI never confronted about his inappropriate sexual behavior towards members of his congregation?Or how about DC and the harbor pastors association that handeled the RH and LD split. Did anyone ever confront L about his control issues. After attening there I now refer to it as Stepfordstone. Oh yeah the church that R started is still going he"s just not there anymore. He got out of town when people started to catch on that he was sleeping with of bunch of his female followers!Again we were told not to gossip or pass on an evil report. So nowCLF! I guess thery even put that in the newspaper again forgetting to tell us what the offenses are that DC commited. Again DI and MFI seem to be in the mix. The other pastors were just snuck out of town in the middle of the night but they are so sure of themselves they are bringing back to town to do it all over again with their blessing of course! The other Pastors just moved on to other innocent victims .Does anyone else see a pattern here or is it just me? Us dumb sheep are always the last ones to know and the last ones to go!
July 17th, 2007 at 5:31 am
FWIW, I’d just as soon we not get into a discussion of the specific sins that specific pastors may have committed.
I’m allowing this comment, because it’s Rhema’s first. And because, I know firsthand that there are several instances of pastors covering up the for actions of their staff.
But if we’re going to discuss this issue, I’d rather it be about the larger issue of how Churches “cover up” for leadership, rather than the specific individual sins of individual pastors.
July 17th, 2007 at 6:41 am
My 2 cents - I don’t think this kind of comment should be allowed. Unless these matters are public record, it’s just gossip (even if true) and something we should avoid.
July 17th, 2007 at 6:45 am
Okay, well then maybe I’ll take it down. I wasn’t sure whether this crossed whatever hypothetical-constantly-moving line we have on this blog.
July 17th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Catlyst, you’re getting soft. Let’s just change the specific names to protect the innocent (us).
July 17th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
I’m sorry, I must be taking this all wrong. I thought that most of the comments I’ve read were very specific regarding names (Wendell Smith, Dick Iverson, Frank Demazio, Doug Cotton) also churches (City Bible Church, CLf).It sounds to me like you guys are being very specific. How do I know that what your saying isn’t just gossip? (there’s that word again)Of course a lot of what I’m telling you isn’t public record because we were taught to handle these kinds of things within the church. That’s my whole point. Its still the good ole boys club burying the truth in the streets. In Doug Cottons defence I still don’t know what he’s really done. No one seems to want to make that public so the majority of us outside of the inner circle still don’t know what he’s really been accused of. I see you guys don’t have a problem putting his name out there.’ Where are his accusers? Maybe I’ve got an anger problem because this kind of crap is sure ticking me off! Are you guys for real or not.? Are you truth seekers or just playing games too? You’ve opened the can of worms down here on this Harbor. A lot of hurting people have been waiting for justice for years. MFI and Dick Iverson seem to be connected to it all. That is all I was trying to say.
July 17th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Leave Rhema’s post up.
Did Rhema’s original post include names or just initials? The likelihood is that those people who know what the initials stand for already know the rumors/facts. The people who don’t already know the situations Rhema describes won’t be able to figure out who is who.
I think Rhema was trying to make the general point that for the past few decades there has really been a lack of good spiritual leadership in Grays Harbor. Doug Cotton’s leadership style at CLF was very much the typical MFI command-and-control, pastor-is-the-man-of-God-don’t-question-him style. That style is wrong every time it is tried in any church. I hope Doug Cotton now sees where he went wrong at CLF and has learned from it.
The current leadership at CLF seems to have a good, healthy style. The elders have learned and matured quite a bit through this whole ordeal. They are very open to new ideas and willing to have discussions — among themselves and with other members and attendees. They use a team-oriented approach, rather than a hierarchical model. They believe that church needs to be about genuineness in worship, Bible study, and community. No longer is church entertainment; it is participatory. Kudos to them for their efforts in trying to lead in a style that seems healthy, respectful of people, and in line with the egalitarian message of the gospel.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:51 am
You asked us how do churches cover up for leadership? This is how: A preacher comes to Bible Temple after ruining a chuch by sleeping with the women in it. Bible Temple takes him in and reforms him. He is sent to Grays Harbor where he takes over a home meeting with deticated christians. They form Rhema fellowship. The pastor sleeps with members of the congragation, people start asking questions and are told not to talk about it. Some leave and the congragation is told to disfellowship with them because they have been won over by Satan. Shhhhhhhhhh don’t talk. Shhhhhhhh don’t ask questions. Shhhhhhhhh if you talk about the leadership God will get you. You listen to your leaders and you don’t talk to the people who are your brothers and sisters. Shame on me shame on us. Preacher goes back to Bible Temple and serves as janitor and “becomes reformed.” Bible Temple sends him out to new church and he sleeps with more women. Ruins another church. God has enough and takes care of problem.
Does it sound like the Vatican protecting child molesters? With a priest doing as he wishes and being protected by the Pope. Former Inner Circle Member tells us not to talk about the situation “even if it’s true.” THAT is how they got away with it. We must ask questions! Who are these pentecostal popes and priests that are trying to run things? Are we the peasant soldiers in their crusades?
July 18th, 2007 at 6:15 am
Yes it does.
The more year hear about MFI the more it sounds like the mafia.
July 19th, 2007 at 1:01 am
I will tell you of a true situation dealing with M.F.I. and Doug Cotton. Back in September of 1995 a situation occured in a small church in a town about 20 miles East of C.L.F.. a new pastor needed to be brought in because the current pastor had to step down. Bob MacGregor who had been associated with that small church suggested to Dave Minor that a young upcoming pastor Paul Ridell was the one for the job. Well it was only a short time before pastor paul and pastor Doug put their heads together without approval of the existing eldership of the small church in question and Ridell sold the church (literally) to C.L.F. and Doug Cotton. When Doug Cotton was questioned about his motive for acquiring the building he said that it was the elderships decision and not his. These individuals sold that congregation down the river and scattered them to the four winds, or traveling the 20 miles to attend C.L.F. It was a decision made by one man without an eldership and the policies in place to protect the people. There was no regard for the people. There was only the money so that C.L.F. could expand their operation and to hell with that small independent church and it’s family that was displaced and relocated.
July 19th, 2007 at 3:54 am
The avowed BT policy used to be for KRI to publicly disclose this type of sin in leadership from the pulpit or Ivy Hall — I could name at least 3 specific people/occasions when this was done on 76th, back in the day. This was the biblical action to be taken, as seen in the following passages:
15 “And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17 “And if he refuses to listen to them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer. (Matt. 18:15-17, NASB, emphasis mine)
and again:
19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
20 THOSE WHO CONTINUE IN SIN, REBUKE IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning. (1 Tim. 5:19-20, NASB)
At that point, those of us at Bible Temple were admonished to not engage in further discussion — gossip — about it, which admonition was, again, biblical:
20…I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, SLANDER, GOSSIP, arrogance and disorder. (2 Cor. 12:20, NIV, emphasis mine)
15 But if you BITE AND DEVOUR one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another. (Gal. 5:15, NASB, emphasis mine)
Same thing when someone was dismissed from PBC…we were all told to not talk about it since the chastisement had already been doled out by leadership.
So, if by getting “swept under the rug,” getting “covered up,” or “burying the truth in the streets” you mean how the oversight didn’t REPEATEDLY ADVERTISE someone’s sin, or that they didn’t want people who heard about it to THEMSELVES SIN by discussing — gossiping about — it, then what’s the beef?
I fail to see the complaint, unless it is because of our frustration at not getting a chance to assuage our own conscience by verbally condemning another person.
Does any of us have a corner on the market in holiness?…in not ever sinning? Does not each one of us have all and sundry skeletons safely hidden from view in our respective closets, sins that we would be loathe for the enquiring minds of this world to find out about? I’m not talking about secret, damaging sin in LEADERSHIP that needs to be divulged as described above. I’m talking about personal sin in OUR lives, which, if we are believers, we have already wept over and confessed to the Lord, perhaps many times over.
In my view, no one has the right to hypocritically condemn another’s sin:
“A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face…Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; FOR I AM HOLIER THAN THOU. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.” (Isaiah 65:3-5, KJV)
Oh, yes, in my younger days I, too, used to do this, which reminds me of the saying, “When young men cry for judgment, old men plead for mercy.”
You see this same thing in John 8:3-11, when Jesus challenged the fellow-sinners of the adulterous women to proceed with the stoning if they themselves were sinless (Interestingly, Jesus alone had the right to stone her, as He was the only One there without sin). The fellow-sinners, convicted by their own consciences, began to leave, “the older ones first.”
Now, in regard to the above-mentioned incidents, if there was no public disclosure of the sin of someone in leadership, as the Timothy passage commands, then there would be a problem.
joebib
July 19th, 2007 at 8:17 am
I was talking about secret damaging sin that needed to be divulged. So what’s your beef.? I don’t even think I said make a public display of leaderships sin. But I do think that anyone involved in these churches has a right to have any questions answered so they are able to process and get some kind of closure . The reason this Blog exists and people are using this means to try to make sense of all this should tell us all something. I believe what I am pleading for is mercy. I don’t see any in this style of leadership. If you’ve ever been on the other end of these situations you would understand. There was no mercy. No compassion for people in the congreation that were giving there lives to these people only to be used for their own sexual gratification , lining their own pockets and using fear and intimadation to keep us from asking questions. This is just asking questions. A lot of us are still asking those same question years later because they’ve never been answered. Had they been answered I certainly would’nt find the need to be here taling to more holier than thou people llike you still perpetuating the problem. I’ve never gone public with any of this stuff until now since it seems to be already out there and there seems to be a whole lot of hurting people just trying to make sense of what has happened to them in these churches in question. Oh yeah aboout making things public , when my family had a closed meeting with Our Pastor at Rhema just wanting explanations for some of the things we were experiencing we were the ones that were publicliy disfellowshiped and people were told to stay away from us. It was months later that we found out that he had commited adultry with members of the comgration. Have you ever heard of watchmen on the wall?
July 19th, 2007 at 8:52 am
I am with you Rhema (mostly or totally?). Much of what you have “exposed” has been known about for years but never discussed, i.e. the gb having such sins. But as you said, it was quickly swept under the carpet. Another in the near same situation was db.
Lots of secrets in the olden days, and depending on what the person’s status was depended on how publically they were exposed or not exposed. In the olden days at BT I don’t recall EVER seeing a male up in front of the congregation asking forgiveness for his sexual transgressions, just the female.. interesting dealings then… and I still find that interesting that they did it that way.. EVEN that it was necessary at all to further humiliate anyone. Just my 2 cents.
July 19th, 2007 at 10:41 am
I see there’s still a war going on out there in christendom. I am just one more baby christian who had her legs blown off by the Rhema extremists.
I know for a fact there are so many more out there that the Lord is calling back. But the big question is???? Where is it safe to go get fed. The wolves have taken over the watering holes…har har! Unless you have walked in the shoes of a Rhema survivor, please don’t judge them. Most of us came into the church from the world, we don’t know how to play the church games. because the Lord is real to us. We would all like to see the leaders get real, and fess up the their con games. No I’m not bitter not even angry anymore. I feel sorry for the innocent lambs who are falling victim to the corruption in the churches today. Its taken 20+years to get my legs back. the Lord is faithful, don’t lose heart, take your eyes off of (man) Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus he is just and true.
Thank you Rhema survivor for you honesty and guts wish this blog could have been here 25 years ago
A lot of hurting people have been waiting for justice for years. MFI and Dick Iverson seem to be connected to it all.
July 19th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Sounds like someone is afraid of (being exposed)…lol if we have nothing to hide who gives a rip, we have all stuffed the crap far to long…
July 19th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
(living life said: “Another in the near same situation was db.”)
As I remember, DB’s sin WAS made public, and consequently, he was removed from his office, was he not? Furthermore, I even remember him later speaking of it, openly, to we students in class, candidly admitting how previously he had been under control by it, and so forth.
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(living life said: “Lots of secrets in the olden days, and depending on what the person’s status was depended on how publicly they were exposed or not exposed.”)
One would assume the family of the senior pastor to have gotten free passes in this regard. Yet, I was at the service when KRI’s brother got up in Ivy Hall and publicly confessed, and that not without tears. Thus begging the question of if his brother, the son of the founder of BT, was not spared this personal humiliation, would that be considered high enough status to admit your statement here is untrue?
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(living life said: “In the olden days at BT I don’t recall EVER seeing a male up in front of the congregation asking forgiveness for his sexual transgressions, just the female…”)
See above example. And, as I recall, NI was a dude
AFAIK, the woman/female in question made no public confession. Thus disproving your allegation of prejudice against females, no?
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(living life said: “interesting dealings then… and I still find that interesting that they did it that way.. EVEN that it was necessary at all to further humiliate anyone.”)
Yes, that must have been extremely devastating personally. Which is the point/result, after all, that Jesus was making when He instituted the practice (again, see Matt. 18:15-17, NASB). Are you taking exception to BT’s attempt to be biblical and obey the Word?
“16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed.” (James 5:16, NASB)
Also compare the application from 1 Tim. 5:19-20 (NASB), cited here (again):
“19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also may be fearful of sinning.”
Apparently, the Scriptures listed in the posts aren’t being read. If the Bible is accepted as authoritative, then one would assume these references would therefore make comments to the contrary unnecessary. If it isn’t, maybe we should resurrect our discussion on Inerrancy, after all.
No offence intended, just an observation.
joebib
July 20th, 2007 at 1:54 am
(Rhema survivor said: “I was talking about secret damaging sin that needed to be divulged. So what’s your beef?”)
I can’t speak to the DC situation, but GB is yet another whose sin WAS publicly divulged, as well as DB’s, NI’s, etc. My beef is that you seem to want to extract some sort of pound of flesh from various individuals, because you haven’t been given all the facts you feel you are somehow entitled to in regard to the details of their sins.
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(Rhema survivor said: “I don’t even think I said make a public display of leaderships sin.”)
Perhaps not in so many words, but was that not you who was lamenting the following?
“…DI got GB out of town and then put a gag order on us so we wouldn’t gossip.”
Doesn’t your desire to gossip about it amount to publicly displaying it? Or have you discovered a way to gossip silently/non-publicly?
—————————————————————————————
(Rhema survivor said: “But I do think that anyone involved in these churches has a right to have any questions answered so they are able to process and get some kind of closure.”)
I disagree. I see nothing in Scripture — nor that which would serve any practical purpose — which gives us the right to know salacious details in the lives of others who have sinned. Quite the contrary, when the Word describes sexual sins, it does so briefly and circumspectly (see Gen. 9:20-23, 19:30-38; 2 Sam. 11:2-4; 1 Cor. 5:1, etc.).
And since you mention it, if by “closure” you mean a chance to vent frustration by continuing to gossip about it, then I disagree with you again. I’m not sure what further questions need to be answered in a situation like this after it has been publicly revealed.
For example, are you wanting to know, “Who exactly did he do it with?” “Where were they when they did it?” “How many times did they do it?” Or even perhaps, “Did they employ the standard, missionary position when they did it?”
Obviously, questions like these would only serve to feed our morbid curiosity.
Seems to me the notions of “process” and “closure” have been largely foisted upon us by modern psychology in its unredeemed attempt to address the results of our sins, when all the while the necessary answers to life’s problems have already been provided in the Word.
IMO, the only “closure” we need is to go no farther than that which the Bible teaches:
1. All of us are sinners. Matt. 7:1-5; Rom. 2:1, 3:10, 3:23, etc.
2. Those who have committed certain sins should be publicly exposed. Matt. 18:15-17; 1 Tim. 5:19-20; James 5:16.
3. It is then commanded that those sinners so exposed are to be forgiven by their fellow-sinners, that is, the members of the congregation. 2 Cor. 2:1-7; Eph. 4:32; Col. 3:13, etc. Compare 1 Tim. 1:15.
And lastly, a liberal dose of the following should be applied:
“4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.” (1 Co. 13:4-6, NIV)
Compare also Phil. 3:13, and Phil. 4:8.
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(Rhema survivor said: “A lot of us are still asking those same question years later because they’ve never been answered. Had they been answered I certainly would’nt (sic) find the need to be here taling (sic) to more holier than thou people llike (sic) you still perpetuating the problem.”)
As I have said about your supposed unanswered questions, I disagree with the entire notion of further details needing to be given.
In regard to your charge about talking to me, you evidently misconstrue my point. If you could look inside my heart you would see that I’m in no sense “holier than thou.” In fact, would to God I was more “holy” than I am. I’m not even the holiest person in my home, for that matter
I would like to know the following, however: Do you seriously feel that because I seek to bring certain Scriptures to bear in this discussion, that I am “perpetuating the problem?”
Based upon what I read in your posts, it seems to me that is what you are doing, my friend.
Having said that, though, I do feel for you, Rhema survivor, and the continued pain you obviously experience from past hurts and injustices by leadership, all of which are regrettable. I pray that the Lord will, someday soon, heal you of them as He has promised He would.
“He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.” (Ps. 147:3, KJV)
joebib
July 20th, 2007 at 11:08 am
joebib said,”Having said all that , though I do feel for you…. “If that was true you would not have said all that. Oh yeah and thank you for all the spelling corrections .
July 20th, 2007 at 11:44 am
My beef is: Persons speaking into a situation without knowing what they are talking about. Even Jesus had to rebuke the Pharisees for there lack of mercy, compassion and love. As you might recall they crucified him! We can all correct spelling heck we have spell check…lol We do love the sinner and hate the sin, is it then necessary to allow the offenders to be placed in a new uninformed church to re offend. This seems to be the policy of MFI. Who is keeping watch over the sheep? Do we take a blood sucking weasel out of the hen house and stick him in another coop? Stop placing pastors with real known issues in a role of authority over baby Christians.
You don’t hand a thief a gun and let him manage the bank. when we sin against the whole congregation we should lose the privilege to lead….
July 20th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Joe Bib Student I don’t believe you feel for Rhema survivor. You are too wrapped up in showing how humble you are. Yes you are so wonderful with your bible smarts to bad you don’t have compassion, no offense intended, just an observation. I do feel for your lack of compassion Joebibstudent I truely do. Chirstians don’t be intimidated by a Pharisee like Joebibstudent. Would to God he wasn’t so self righteous. Feel free to correct spellling errors Joe. These people are hurting and want to talk to each other while people like you are trying to shut them up. Jesus was a revolutionary. He came to save the humble and the week from those who put themselves on pedestals. He was not afraid to question church leaders and politicians. Shouldn’t we follow his example? Christians, you are the church– dare to ask questions. The church leaders should be held accountable and we should not let them forget this.
July 21st, 2007 at 5:20 am
Ok, ok.
So it apparently offends Rhema, FHC, FSO, and perhaps others when I use “(sic).” Mea culpa, its just a habit — and the correct way to quote someone’s remarks, by the way.
I promize too try not two yuse it animore, k?
Oh, and one more thing…as far as lobbing the accusation/personal insult stuff goes (Pharisee, self-righteous, etc.), I, too, do it sometimes, especially if someone is trolling, which I’m not. But it does take things to a higher (lower?) level, and is a bit more mean-spirited than making grammatical corrections, wouldn’t you agree?
However good it makes us feel to dis someone, it really doesn’t address the point of our discussion, does it?
NTTABT in itself, necessarily, and if it makes you feel good doing it, then by all means proceed
Back on topic.
If the MFI leadership knowingly place unrepentant, non-confronted/-exposed pastors into these situations, then I agree with you, it is abominable. But, and if they are attempting to restore to ministry truly repentant men/leaders who have been dealt with biblically, it’s just what God Himself did in the Scriptures with men who had failed Him previously (see Abraham, David, Mark, etc.).
Of course, it goes without saying that these situations need to be very closely monitored, which I don’t know if this took place or not, nor for how long. And it is also a different situation if these people could be characterized as “predatory,” and if said leadership continues in this type of behavior, then of course, they shouldn’t be given any more chances. Period. AFAIK, that’s not the case here, but if it is, that’s a totally different deal.
One other thing that goes unmentioned here is the “other parties” involvement in said sexual misconduct. Yes, yes, I avow it is despicable for anyone in leadership to be doing this with members of their flock, and they definitely will be held accountable for it by God, no doubt — compare Rev. 1:20 with Heb. 10:31, and see James 3:1, as well.
But, what about those they “did it” with?
Were these minors who were manipulated into engaging in these actions, or were they adults?
Did they give their consent, or were they physically forced?
Did they make a conscious decision to engage in immorality, or were they drugged?
Were they not already aware of this person’s propensity — since they were previously exposed, publicly — to have done this type of behavior in the past?
Again, I am aware of the emotional relationship that exists between pastor and flock, and recognize the tendency of (immature) individuals to sometimes adulate their leaders.
Still, do you feel the people/women who did this stuff with their leadership will be somehow winked at by God for their part in these sinful acts?
Does their complicity in all this not matter?
Furthermore, wouldn’t you say it also affects the situation if any of them have previously had a PATTERN of this in their own lives?
I’m sure we’re all aware there are people in this world who find anyone in the spotlight attractive, and who “go after” them accordingly. Just look at politicians, movie/TV/media stars, athletes, and the like. I remember reading about one of the women former LA Laker Magic Johnson gave AIDS to, how she admitted she had “done it” with him, on an office desk I believe, not because she found him attractive, but rather because he was famous. I have a pastor friend, whose name many of you would recognize, who had this happen to him by a woman who was herself “predatory,” and who had a lengthy history of going after pastors and those in leadership, with quite a bit of fruit for her labors, as I recall.
I still don’t agree that giving vent to one’s hurts by continually regurgitating/replaying/repeating them over and over again, on this site, or in one’s spirit, to be the way to overcome them. More importantly, nor can support be found from the Bible to do so. To the contrary, it’s just the opposite from the instructions in the Word, and who knows better than God how we should deal with these things? FWIW, I personally have never really gotten over anything by holding on to past hurts/offences. It just served to keep me bitter, which is where the Enemy wanted me.
More to the point I was trying to make, what about the Scriptures? What saith the Lord? As happens too often IMO on this site, I haven’t seen anyone’s comments on how they’re attempting to apply the above-mentioned passages to this situation and to their respective lives.
Finally Speaking Out — If, as you charge, I had no feelings for the people involved in the matter at hand, consider this: do you really think I would continue to make myself vulnerable to attack by posting a view which I very well know precious few around here agree with?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I’ve read, the majority here at C-Bus-C — heck, even by their own admission, the mods — don’t seem to really believe that the plain teaching of the Scriptures, especially the OT, should trump any of this, which is one reason why I list so many verses. God couldn’t care less about my personal opinions if they’re not in alignment with His Word. And yet, interestingly, the “I thinks” and “I feels” appear to reign supreme in most people’s minds.
joebib
July 21st, 2007 at 6:31 am
Well Joe you’ve done it again. You have taken the victims and the people that are hurting and victimized them again. I haven’t stepped foot in a church in 25 years. I was afraid it would hurt my walk with God. Glad I didn’t after talking to you Joe. DI is responsible for putting GB among the sheep. A special punishment awaits hims. Poor G.B. set upon by all those lustful women in 3 or more churches–harlots.
July 21st, 2007 at 7:12 am
One more thing Joe–You ask “Were they drugged? Were they adults? Were they physically forced?” These people came out of the world having done may terrible thing in their past–they were trusting the church. I don’t care if the women were standing on their head nude waving their legs saying come and get it. He still shouldn’t have done it and they shouldn’t have sent him to another church. They didn’t know about G.B.’s propensity for fornication–only his family and D.I. knew. Most of these women were new christians and you want to ask if they were asking for it? Shame on you. I imagine if a child in the catholic church told you he was molested you would tell him to keep quiet and to stop wearing such tight pants.
July 21st, 2007 at 8:01 am
I nominate that for quote of the week. Hilarious.
July 21st, 2007 at 8:51 am
To joebibstudent: Hey Dick Iverson is this really you? I could swear I’ve heard all this before just like it was yesterday!
July 21st, 2007 at 10:07 am
How would you apply this scripture Joe Bib?
JEREMIAH CHAPTER 23, 1 thru 8.
Thy word we have hid in our hearts to be a lamp unto our feet…not to be used to beat the sheep into submission. We love ya Joe bib! We will pray for you Joe Bib! May the Lord open your eyes to the spiritual damage you continue to inflict in Gods Holy flock.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:22 am
* Jesus told us not to Judge. “Judge not, that ye be not judged,” No he did not. Read in its context, vs.2-5 goes on to refer to hypocritical judgment. A brother who has a beam in his own eye should not be judging the brother who may have a mote in his eye. In other words, you cannot judge another for his sin if you are guilty of the same sin. However if you take care of that sin you can help your brother.
The fact that His (Jesus’) whole ministry was a judgment against the Pharisees who wanted him to agree with their way of practicing Judaism. To the Pharisees he said to their face, “O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh” (Matt. 12:34). He stood up to them to their face and called them “hypocrites,” “blind,” “blind guides,” “whited sepulchres,” “serpents,” and a “generation of vipers.” (read Matthew 23 to find out who the real Jesus is, not the tolerant scrawny mild manner milksop that some portray). John 3:19-21 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” That’s judgment is it not?
Jesus in John 7:24 said to the people: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” so he is telling us to judge, and he is not contradicting himself elsewhere. Jesus said, “Beware of false prophets!” (Matthew 7:15) How could we obey and “beware” of “false prophets” unless we test them- that’s judging.
The apostles teachings are from Jesus and the spoke far more on testing and judging than even Jesus did, they named names (8 of them in the New Testament, as the prophets did in the Old Testament) and were correcting the church in their letters.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:26 am
Legalism
Yes Joe Bib
There are some groups that have right doctrine but are steeped in legalism. Legalism are laws that are unscriptural or biblical laws that are no longer to be practiced. They make ones walk heavy and the effect is having them lose their joy. They become toilsome, harsh and inflexible. The Pharisees couldn’t show mercy the heavier matters of the law because of their legalism although they knew the Scriptures well enough. Love and legalism don’t mix, love is flexible willing to yield. Love, grace and peace are a family they bring health and growth to an individual. While extra laws are a burden and often times bring bondage if not exercised by an individuals own free choice, legalism may not affect ones salvation as much as it will affect their spiritual growth. It certainly can affect their relationship to the Lord. churches that are orthodox in doctrine can fall under a pastor or leadership that goes beyond their God given authority and manipulate the congregation or individual members.
http://www.letusreason.org/Cults1.htm
July 21st, 2007 at 11:35 am
I am also a tired sad survivor of Rhema. I was also disfellowshipped. My mistake was in telling the pastor something the Lord had told me. I did what he told me to do and for my efforts was called a heretic. I realized after all the dust was settled the the pastor was scared. The Lord told me things that the pastor thought were secret. Several things, nothing that would have embarressed him, just enough to give him a hint that God knew all the secrets. I watched him be restored in love. Then sent out all better. What I did not see was all the rest of the hurting being restored in love. I did not see a public apology following the very public disfellowshipping of alot of people that did not agree with how some things were being done. That said, we can all quote scripture to prove our points. We should remember that God does not have any favorites.He loves all of us and the point that I think some are trying to make is that the leadership seems to forget that. Of course they would like us to remember that as far as it concerns them.
July 21st, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Hi,
Can someone from Rhema email me concerning the identity of GB and DB.
If GB is whom I am guessing, it may make things a little clearer.
My email is karimichelle7@aol.com
Thanks.
July 21st, 2007 at 6:13 pm
There once was a man named joebib,
His comments were ever so glib.
He must be a clone from the MFI zone,
Taken from Dick Iversons rib!
July 21st, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Gail Bryan, I dont know who DB is. Ive been wondering myself.
July 21st, 2007 at 9:05 pm
Thanks to those of you who responded. I kind of figured that might be the case and it does shed some light on the “extra” attention he gave myself and other young friends during PBC. So sad.
But it also frustrates me that Bible Temple was not more careful. GB was on campus all the time. That should have been more closely monitored.
Also, Pastor Iverson brought a young single pastor from NY to PBC while I was there who had committed fornication, to restore him. Great—nothing like young naive 18-22 year-old virgins to help restore a lustful man. As I recall he broke a few hearts. Good thing I had all of those rules to protect me, because the church certainly wasn’t protecting us. He went back and fell into sin again.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:27 pm
You guys were the ones being closely monitored KariMichelle. Thats what all those rules were for! For someone who is so into seeing people restored why din’t Dick Iverson and MFI do something for all the people whose lives were destroyed by these Pastors? Oh yeah now I remember…. If we don’t talk about it then it didn’t really happen and if it didn’t really happen then nobody had to do anything about it. Now I get it!
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:15 am
(Finally Speaking Out said: “They didn’t know about G.B.’s propensity for fornication–only his family and D.I. knew.”)
I’m calling you-know-what on you here, FSO.
Look, I was there at the service when KRI, with obvious personal difficulty, publicly exposed GB from the BT pulpit. Heard him start off by saying words very similar to, “I have something to tell you all which is very painful for me to say, as well as sad: Pastor GB has fallen into sin….” Don’t know about any of the rest of you old-timers who were also at that service, but I wept, as it was an extremely emotional, gut-wrenching moment. All I could think of was him, his flock, the person(s) actually involved, the damage which would surely be done to the Lord’s Name and to His Church by the enemies of the Gospel (2 Sam. 12:14; Rom. 2:24, etc.), GB’s wife and kids, and especially of Mark, with whom I was rather close in those days.
So, at the least, some 2,000, and perhaps as many as 3,000 people in attendance at that very moment were made aware of GB’s sin, in addition to however many people were attending his church at that time, a few hundred, I believe. Not to mention most, if not all of the pastors — as well as many of their respective congregations — of the other churches in his area that would surely find out what happened after he stepped down from being pastor of his church. Easily, several hundred more.
As we all very well know, and notwithstanding the plea of oversight, when sordid sins of this nature are committed by people, especially when these people who are doing the sinning happen to be members of leadership, fellow-sinners (read: Christians) verily knock one another over in lining up to repeat/discuss/gossip about it endlessly, over and over, and thus the circle of those who know about it increases geometrically.
So in a very short period of time, perhaps only a few weeks, the number has multiplied to literally several thousands of people who know about this person’s dirty deeds.
I say all this to address the naïve notion that what GB did was supposedly a closely-guarded secret, or some unknown thing carried on in a dark corner somewhere, unseen by enquiring minds.
Furthermore, according to the opinions/inferences voiced here by some, KRI is consistently being portrayed as almost a co-adulterer since he, naively perhaps, attempted to follow the biblical pattern of restoring several who fell in the ministry.
Yes, I agree KRI’s actions — however well-intentioned they were originally meant to be — must, in the final analysis, be viewed as not only unwise, but patently foolish. But, having said that, I’m convinced no one felt worse about it than he when someone whom he believed in fell (again) into the same, or similar sin — if you think otherwise, then you don’t know the man, nor his heart.
For which decision(s), I’m sure many of you will be relieved/satisfied to know, as in all things done by leadership in their respective ministries (as seen in the above-mentioned Jer. 23:1-8 passage), KRI will one day have to answer unto the Lord, perhaps severely:
3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. (James 3:1, NASB)
However, to make him out to be some sort of Pharisaical, insidious, co-perpetrator in the guilt of GB’s sins comes under the heading of “slanderous reviling” (look it up), IMO, is wrong, and violates the command of “speaking the truth in love,” as well.
joebib
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:19 am
This one’s better I think:
“I don’t care if the women were standing on their head nude waving their legs saying come and get it.”
lol
joebib
July 22nd, 2007 at 5:04 am
(Finally Speaking Out said: “Most of these women were new christians and you want to ask if they were asking for it? Shame on you. I imagine if a CHILD in the catholic church told you he was molested you would tell him to keep quiet and to stop wearing such tight pants.”) (emphasis mine)
1. I asked why no one had the political incorrectness (read: intestinal fortitude, otherwise referred to, colloquially, as “cajones”) to MENTION the issue of the women involved, and if they perhaps shared any complicity for engaging in adultery themselves. Period.
FWIW, if God were to ask me how I would attribute the matter of guilt, I would say GB should bear at least 75% of the responsibility, in comparison to the women he did it with. But, AFAIK, these women still made a conscious decision to sin as well, correct me if I’m wrong.
In seeking to take application from one of the few biblical passages speaking to this situation, Deut. 22, the only free pass to be found there is for those forced, and who then cried out, but not for naivete/gullibility.
2. Your example using the word “child” proves my point exactly. Were the women who committed adultery with GB “children?”
joebib
P.S. In our clamor to re-play these lusty episodes, something just occurred to me: Would the majority of females involved in all of this, those whose innocence is being defended, and abuse of rights decried, want all of us on this site to be re-hashing what must have ended up, after the public disclosure thereof, to be embarrassing, even terrible memories for them?
July 22nd, 2007 at 5:57 am
(Fox Hole Christian said: “May the Lord open your eyes to the spiritual damage you continue to inflict in Gods Holy flock.”)
Tommyrot, poppycock, and balderdash.
But, to answer the charge…
1. I’ve sought to bring applicable Scripture into this discussion.
2. I’ve brought up issues germane to the subject at hand, and which surely affect the attributing of guilt, which burden/privilege to do so has been so humbly undertaken by several around here.
3. I’ve resorted to reason (in the perhaps naive attempt) to cool the hot heads of my fellow-sinners, we who are ever-crying for the blood of other guilty sinners under discussion.
4. I’ve hoped to prick the conscience of my afore-mentioned fellow-sinners as to our own sinful condition, whose sin, BTW, is just as despicable to God, in hopes we could all just uncock our loaded pistols — even for a day — aimed at MFI, KRI, GB, DB, DC, WS, JS, et al, and remember the words of Christ in Matthew 7:1-5, and Matthew 18:21-22.
” ‘Off with their heads!’ I cried, till I knew it must needs start with mine.”
5. I’ve resisted, so far (I think) the ever-growing temptation to respond in kind to the mean-spirited name-calling carried on in here, which BTW, would give me immense pleasure.
So, explain to me again how I — in regard to points 1-4, at least — am “damaging” God’s Holy flock?
joebib
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:49 am
I too went to Bible Temple. I lived above the book store across the street. I was friends with Kevin Connor, played on Ken Malmens basketball team (great player), played racquet ball with Bill Sizemore and ate at pastor Iversons house. I believe the Iversons and the people of Bible Temple to be some of the most sincere Christians I’ve ever met. But when a man becomes a pastor he knows he will be around people with terrible problems. They are new to what is going on and so happy to have found God. They trust the pastor with all of their hearts and look up to him as a representative of God. A pastor can easily sway them into doing what he wants which is good if the pastor uses it to their best interest.
Dick made a terrible mistake when he first knew Gail had devastated the Idaho church he should have never sent him out a a pastor again. Reform him yes, but keep him a Bible Temple under limited access to women. When Dick sent him out two more times and Gail did what he did then Dick should have stepped down as head pastor.
Gail’s mea culpa came only after he got caught. We tried to keep it quiet for a while which we believed was best for the church. The women that were abused are not the ones at fault. It was the man with power over them. The people that need reformed and help are the victims. Many have left the church never to return. God weeps for everyone of them and they need to know they did something wrong and have some blame but ultimately it was the leadership which failed them from Bible Temple to Rhema.
The question isn’t what percent they are to blame but how do we get them to walk with god again? Some of you won’t go back to church. It wasn’t God’s fault. It was the people placed in charge of the church. God will deal with them in the end. Right now Joebib you are abusing the victims too. I don’t know if you are sincere or just having fun with them. If you are an adult Christian God expects more out of you than this.
The debate here should not be who is right or wrong, who has more knowledge of the bible, who can argue better, or who is the best speller. It should be how can we save lost souls that have been cast out by the very churches they thought would save them.
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:18 am
RHIGHT ON! MARK9:42 EVERY WELL SAID.
YOU HIT THE MARK.
NOTHING MORE TO SAY, AMEN, AMEN & AMEN!
THANK YOU!!!!!
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:44 am
Too bad you brought up bill sleazemore… he could be great fodder for the blog….. Except he fleeced the State of Oregon, not just Christians at BT
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:23 pm
I love our readers.
July 22nd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
(Mark 9:42 said: “I lived above the book store across the street.”)
So did I. When did you live there?
joebib
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:12 pm
oh my goodness. . Joebib. …. are you lance in disguise?
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:34 am
What? Don’t tell me you lived up there, too? Oh geez.
Lest more salvos are fired my way (”Oh, yeah, I remember that a - - hole. THAT explains his posts”), my identity will remain anonymous.
Hint #1: I used to go down in the middle of the night, pick the lock to the connecting door of the bookstore, and read by flashlight the books I couldn’t afford to buy.
Hint #2: While down there, I would also use the phone in Dick Andrew’s office to call my gf, because Warren Steele had put a lock on our dorm phone.
Bonus: Once tried to make wine — to be used for communion
— by setting out a gallon jug of apple juice on the roof of the bookstore. Probably would’ve worked, too, had not our dormleader found it after 2 days and poured it out.
joebib
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:44 am
I used to work for Bill. Was surprised to see him trying to do the political thing. I wouldn’t vote for him, not in a million.
joebib
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:09 am
(Mark 9:42 said: “The question isn’t what percent they are to blame but how do we get them to walk with god again? Some of you won’t go back to church. It wasn’t God’s fault. It was the people placed in charge of the church. God will deal with them in the end. Right now Joebib you are abusing the victims too. I don’t know if you are sincere or just having fun with them. If you are an adult Christian God expects more out of you than this.”)
I’m not abusing the victims, nor am I unfeeling toward those who suffered.
For the third time (is it?) I am asking certain questions.
I’m trying to point out these women gave their consent to adulterate, which no one here has the courage to admit.
I’m saying those who self-righteously judge GB and KRI for their sins are themselves sinning by violating Jesus’ command, as well as Paul’s.
Additionally, in the collective zeal to crucify GB and KRI, people are therefore making it OK to commit the sin of adultery, just as long as you were a woman who did it with GB.
How many ways and times do I have to say, “Yes, yes, yes,” I agree what GB was despicable, terrible and abominable, and he will be dealt with by the Lord? Does anyone here even carefully read what is posted? So many are biased by their emotions, that they read only what they want to see.
And yes, I sometimes respond with humor to deflect the negativity/harshness of certain posters.
(Mark 9:42 said: “The debate here should not be who is right or wrong, who has more knowledge of the bible, who can argue better, or who is the best speller. It should be how can we save lost souls that have been cast out by the very churches they thought would save them.”)
I merely tried to show many of the close-minded readers around here that I agreed with GB’s guilt.
Spelling, Bible knowledge, etc., of course, have nothing to do with it. I purposely list Scriptures because so many here obviously let their opinions, emotions and reason reign supreme. None of which matter in the slightest if they are not in alignment with the Word.
Witness your mere mention of BS. Instant attack.
Too many around here alashing out at pastors and leadership when they are in the wrong, which they often admittedly are, and then justify the venom they spew by saying, “Hey, we are merely pointing out their sins.”
Don’t believe me? Go back and read some (the majority?) of the posts on this blog. Precious little love, but a lot of vindictive bile, I reckon.
What’s completely lost of them is that they themselves sin by their hateful attitudes. They forget we are to “Speak the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15). Show me how just because someone is hurt they are allowed by God to attack those who’ve hurt them? Chapter and verse?
Felons in prisons justify the attacking of child-molesters, rapists, etc., because they are deemed more terrible then they are. But, in the eyes of a Holy God, the same fire is reserved for liars and thieves as for child-molesters.
Matthew 7:4-5
joebib
July 23rd, 2007 at 7:24 am
Too many around here alashing out at pastors and leadership when they are in the wrong, which they often admittedly are, and then justify the venom they spew by saying, “Hey, we are merely pointing out their sins.”
Boo Hoo…… Joe Glib
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:05 am
This is my last writing on this subject. You people who are hurting need to get off this blog. Joebib will continue to blame the victims and this is not healthy for you to hear. Scripture with some truth and a dose of poison will still harm you. These days there are many people like joebibstudent in church. They are there to confuse you and hurt your christian walk. Many people have recognised this and no longer attend church and they are stronger for it. Meet with other Christians study and read the Bible. The ideal is for you to find a healthy church but they are few and far between. Organized church is not for all. The longer you argue with people like Joe the sicker you will become. I urge you to protect yourselves and leave. Can’t you see the hatred contempt and ridicule he has for you? Do you think this is God’s spirit talking to you? No, quite the opposite get out now!
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:38 am
I see the truth in what you are saying…and I agree so long everyone, best of luck. see you in the other side. Looks like another wolf in sheep’s clothing.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 am
I kind of think this whole “I had sex with my pastor” thing is overblown. So you had sex with your creepy predatory pastor. Who hasn’t made a sexual mistake in their lives. It happens. You chalk it up as a minor youthful indescretion, promptly tell everyone within 20 miles that your loser pastor took advantage of you, and then you move on with your life.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:56 am
“One day, you’ll look back on all this and laugh, say we were
young and stupid…”
“We’re not that young”
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:02 am
Finally speaking out said:
It is sad you feel this way about church. After reading joebibstudents piece I can see why you feel that way. The hate he spews towards women and hurt Christian is not the church’s fault and God will deal with it. The ideal is going to church and yes their are joebibs there and they will stay there
unless people with your passion come in and root them out. They are a poison to all of us. If you feel you can’t go to church you can still serve God. I do agree you should get off of this blog because the enemy will only do you harm if you stay.
I agree that this is not about the sex. And people should get over that but it is about the abuse of power and the loss of trust. When new Christians come to church they trust the church leaders to show them how to be good Christians. It reminds me of teachers sleeping with their students. Even if the student is 18 and consensual it is still against the law because of the abuse of power.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:04 am
Except that it isn’t against the law. Most schools have policies against it, so the teacher will be fired but won’t be thrown in jail.
That said, I agree with you that the real issue here is abuse of power.
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Yeah! Key word: FIRED! 1cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the gentiles, that someone has his fathers wife. And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. For I on my part though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has commited this as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I am with you in spirit , with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved inthe day of the Lord Jesus. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerety and truth. I wrote in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler– not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders?Do you not judge those who are in the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. (like I’ve said Bible temple has created a haven to restore the wrong people) Is that enough scripture for you joebib?
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:07 pm
(Finally Speaking Out said: “The longer you argue with people like Joe the sicker you will become. I urge you to protect yourselves and leave. Can’t you see the hatred contempt and ridicule he has for you? Do you think this is God’s spirit talking to you? No, quite the opposite get out now!”)
Your insight is astounding. Why bother to hide my real motives any longer?
Yep…that’s it…run for your very lives.
Don’t risk getting “sicker.”
It’s true: I hate and have contempt for you all.
—————————————————————–
(Mark 9:42 said: “The hate he (uh…that would be me, joebib) spews towards women and hurt Christian is not the church’s fault and God will deal with it. The ideal is going to church and yes their are joebibs there and they will stay there unless people with your passion come in and root them out. They are a poison to all of us.”)
Wow…amazing.
joebib