Ok, on to Divorce. Le's see what Matthew 5:31-32 has to say on the subject:
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matt 5:31-32)
Seeing as how this scripture falls closely on the heal of the "eye gouging" verse how do we interpret it? I'm not sure…let's look at what is said about Divorce in the other Gospels:
2Some Pharisees came and tested him [Jesus] by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
3"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
Mark just complicates things for me…first we see that "the Law" written by Moses permits divorce, but then Jesus says "No. No Divorce for you" (and in this scripture he doesn't even give an out for "marital unfaithfulness"). So, who/what do we follow? The Law of Moses? The words of Jesus that say that we must follow that Law (Matt 5:19)? Or the teachings of Jesus in Mark that we just read? Let's skip ahead to Luke:
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery". (Luke 16:17-18)
It seems a little contradictory if we are to take Jesus exactly at His words here in these 3 scriptures. Let's break it down:
- 1. There is a Law that says you can divorce,
- 2. Nothing will ever "drop out of the Law"
- 3. Jesus says Divorce = Adultery
- 4. Audltery is a sin
…hmmmnnnn…I guess he isn't really creating a new Law disallowing divorce here, He's just saying if you get divorced you are breaking another Law, but go ahead…by the way, the punishment for Adultery is death by stoning…who's first?
In looking closer at these verses, it appears that in Matthew 5 Jesus says divorcing a woman causes her to become an adulterer (not the man) and the rest of the verses deal with re-marrying. Sounds like women are getting a raw deal here…this might make Jesus sexist…I'll let our resident feminists make that call though.
Here is another thought. If we are supposed to gouge out our eyes and cut off our hands if they cause us to sin, couldn't we apply that scripture to our spouses? Wouldn't it be better to sever a marriage if it were causing us to sin than for our "whole body to go into hell"? Maybe I'm just playing word games here.
To sum up what my interpretation of these scriptures are…I don't. I don't know what to do with all this…go ask a Bible scholar.
My personal opinion on divorce has always been this: God will not be pleased with you if you get a divorce…and God will not be pleased with you if you have a miserable marriage and only stay together because you are afraid of divorce.
Sounds like a lose, lose situation for those women affected by domestic violence.
I think Bible Temple used to have a rule that no man who got a divorce could be an elder. Or if you married a divorced woman you couldn't be an elder. …something like that… Anyway, this is always one of those tricky areas of the Bible that people tend to interpret just to fit their own lives. Unlike homosexuality, divorce is negotiable with God.
My dad abandoned my mom when I was 13. I’d been raised in B.T. my whole life. Then they abandoned us because we didn’t have the perfect lives anymore and my mom was an outcast. So my teenage years were spent alone with no help from any church because of our situation. I met my husband who took advantage of that and abused me for years before I went to a shelter. Now I’m divorced and a survivor of domestic violence…and lately I’ve thought of going back because I can’t make it on my own.
And there is no one from B.T. (or any other church) who has helped me or my mother survive or who has treated me like a person. I live with my 3 beautiful children in a hopeless financial situation. So you people tell me…how do I tell my children that God cares about them when there is no proof? Those “perfect” Christians like Judah Smith and B.T. leadership don’t give a rip about divorced women like me…and I’m not sure right now that God does either. But I serve Him anyway. Why?
Because I’m not ready to give up. Because I want to believe that God loves us divorced people too. I think it is very sad that the people who have showed us the most compassion are non-Christians. I’ve heard many stories of B.T. imperfect or divorced people being ostracized by B.T. leadership. I hope they read this and are ashamed. I hope someday they take responsibility for all the lives they destroyed.
Wow!
1st: Reformed Pope, your whole argument about the contradiction is way off base. Let me break it down. Divorce is wrong (almost always) and to leave a wife to get a newer model is really wrong. The “Law of Moses” did not say that Divorce was not a sin. It said that Divorce was allowed via a certificate. This is Jesus being very consistent with how he handled the law.
Not only is Murder a sin but so is Anger!
Not only is Adultery a sin but so is “looking” (covet)
Not only is Divorce a sin but so is marrying someone with a divorce
He has not contradicted the law he has said that the law did not go far enough just like the rest of the sins.
2nd: B.T. Beauty, I am soooooooo sorry for how you feel about church. I hope you can realize that is not how it should be. Funny you bring up Pastor Judah, I go to City Church and both my wife are divorced and we (gasp) got together in adultery. We have had no problems becoming leaders in the church. Not because they think adultery is alright, but because that is not who we are any longer. CC also owns a womens shelter and I have personally heard both Pastor Wendell and Gini address Domestic Violence.
Maybe you can leave Portland and make a move to Seattle and see it done correctly with out hurt? I don’t know what God is telling you these days but when we lived in PDX there where reasons we never went to BT. But that being said CC IS NOT a carbon copy Seattle remix of BT. I am glad P. Wendell is on the MFI Board so that he can continue to help MFI with change. So many doctrines of our church would have been heretical to the old BT. For example women Pastors.
I personally don’t think it’s the church’s place to get involved in divorce situations beyond marriage counseling. It would be pretty presumptuous for anyone in leadership to cast judgment on someone in such a difficult predicament, it should really be between God and the couple. It’s impossible for someone else to truly understand and see what’s going on between a couple considering divorce.
When it comes to safety concerns for those living in domestically violent situations I believe God sees the circumstances and judges accordingly. I don’t necessarily have scripture to back this up, my apologies for that, it just seems that given the loving, gracious and caring attributes that are displayed throughout the Bible God wouldn’t turn His back on a helpless situation.
It is sad to know that sometime the church marginalizing people based on what they feel fit. No one deserve to be marginalized in the church, no one should be rejected to find God’s grace. My boyfriend is reluctant to go to church because he thinks that the church tend to make it hard for people to find GOD & set so many regulations to be a perfect “Christians” per se which I think just to get approval from other people regarding our spirituality.
Honestly, I decided long time ago that I will not let anyone judge my spirituality. I don’t care how pastors or church leaders regard my spirituality, what I know I hope I’m becoming a better person every day, and living my life reflecting God as he always been, compassionate and merciful God.
[Comment ID #27728 Will Be Quoted Here]
Dear BT Beauty:
My heart weeps for you and your situation. But, I wish to offer you hope thru this little example.
This wonderful godly woman in her nieve youth married this man with whom she bore and raised four children. After thirty years of marriage her husband took up with some fluzzy from the church they attended together for twenty years os so. Ms fluzzy was a friend (?) of the woman and often sat by her in church. The following divorce totally devastated the woman. But, because of her strong faith in God and her continuing service to God and her church she never lost hope that she was still in His hands.
About ten years passed. God is now restoring her to her happiness. She will soon wed a pastor and missionary. Together they plan to continue their lives together as pastors and missionaries. This is the life she deserves and fulfills her in heart and spirit. What a wonderful finnish to what was once an awful time in her life. She never gave up hope or her faith that God would provide her with the needs in life. Today, she is a very happy person. She never gave up hope!!!!
I offer this that you may find some strength and hope in this short story.
God loves you too, as He loves her . He showed her. He will show you.
Stay in there. Don’t give up!
God bless you.
The husband who divorced her for that fluzzy now lies in his bed most of every day slowing dying and wasting away. Guess what! She gets to nurse him
Thank you for your kind words and stories. As for moving to Seattle, that’s where my ex is moving to from Florida. He doesn’t know where we are. So that’s out for now, thank you!
I’m not saying anything bad about City Church. I’ve never been there. I did, however, grow up with Judah and Wendy. They didn’t share their stuff (like toys) and were pretty spoiled. So I’m going on past experiences.
I do know B.T. and do hold them responsible for the way they’ve treated people over the years.
Divorce holds a stigma with most Christians that continues today. I think it is no greater sin than any other. We, as a Christian body, must separate the action from the person. We, as a Christian body, need to deal with each case individually in divorce and not judge just based on the word “divorced” itself.
[Comment ID #27733 Will Be Quoted Here]
Independant Thinker Said:
“Honestly,…dada…….dada….dada.” I am so in agreement with your stance and thinking here. Your thoughts are a reflection of my own heart in regards to what people think. Sometimes I get so frustrated with the behavior churches and some pastors. I frequently have to take time with my Lord and ask Him what I am supposed to think and what am I supposed to do. I ask Him to please help me understand. It is too difficult to accept all preachers say.
I have been an indepentent thinker all of my life. Not always appreciated by church leadership. But I think it is a gift from God and Keeps me strong
when needed in the face of so much confusion.
And back to you. Stay strong!!
Pleasedreader,
glad to know that I am not alone!
Thanks,
IT
With all due respect, nothing ’causes’ us to sin. How cruel God would be to punish us for sin that was really somebody else’s fault. Sheesh….
Malachi 2:16
…the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence…
Personally, I know that if I were not a Christian I would have left my sometimes ‘miserable marriage’. But no matter how badly my husband treats me, Jesus suffered more. Not that he treats me terribly–he’s a selfish man, just like I am a selfish woman, and quite often our mutual selfishness causes strain and pain. That is unfortunate, but knowing how God feels about divorce, I choose not to take the easy way out of the sometimes difficult and challenging covenant I made in front of several hundred witnesses almost 20 years ago.
Besides, how can we learn long suffering (which, by the way, means “to suffer for a loooooong time”
) if we are never challenged over a period of time such as a life-long marriage? How can we learn to love the unlovely if we are not faced with such a person regularly? How can we learn peace if we are not faced with having our feathers ruffled? How can we learn to be self-controlled if we get our own way all the time? “Course, our spouses never have to put up with us….*wink*
No fifty year marriage milestone I have ever witnessed has ever said that it has been fifty uninterrupted years of marital bliss. Every marriage struggles through some pretty vigorous challenges, and if it is stuck through, instead of abandoned, there are rewards that can never be found in successive spousal replacements. Oh I know, “my marriage is the exception”–I don’t know, I think when we stand before God, our feeble excuses will be revealed for just that, pathetic attempts to justify our disobedience to God’s will.
When it comes to abuse, physical abuse, if a husband were to smack his boss, or slug a co-worker, or assault any other person, he would go to jail. It is illegal to accost another person violently. My husband knows without a shadow of a doubt that if he ever hit me, he would go to jail and I would pursue any and all charges available. I grew up in an abusive home–physical, verbal, sexual…I didn’t have a choice when I was a helpless child…I do now.
BT Beauty – I so much understand feeling like giving up. Part of the God Promise fed to us from the pulpit is the happy ever after fairy tale. I have concluded God never promises the white picket fence, he just promises to be with us while we live in the crap.
Please contact CamasFriends@CamasFriends.org which is the Friends Church (Quaker) in Camas WA. If there is a woman pastor still there (the first name Caryl), tell her your story. You will find a kindred spirit and someone that knows what you are going through. Trust me, she will understand.
I do not go to that church, nor have kept in touch with that woman. (hope she is still there) We simply crossed paths briefly when she was transitioning to that church and my faith is God was renewed by our brief encounter. If you hear her story you will understand what I am talking about.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE…
DO NOT GIVE UP! DO NOT GO BACK TO THE ABUSE! YOU DESERVE TO KNOW REAL LOVE.
To Was There Witnessed That…
I understand your attempt to give BT Beauty hope, however, I sincerely feel
your story of the now happy women marrying a pastor/missionary, is misguided. It supports the incorrect message that a woman’s happiness and success is directly connected to “Marriage”. It makes singles or unhappy married people feel that God doesn’t love them as much as the happy married people.
I don’t want to negate that one persons happy life, I just want to say “bunk” to the connection that happiness equals marriage or that God’s final sign of blessing is marriage.
When we find ourselves in the muck and choked with loneliness, it’s not time to dream about “some day my prince will come”! It is time to face who we are alone, learning to depend on God alone. It’s time to find the diamond inside ourself, the strength of God in us, we have no idea is there.
A divorced, abused woman with children needs to know God’s ultimate blessing is for her to find the strength to make it through the day and still delight in her children. The blessing she will see from God is her ability to buy groceries and pay the rent based on her own accomplishments, not due to the “man” that she marries. The goal she should be looking forward to is evidence that her children are emotionally healthy, stable adults.
To look for marriage as the answer and proof of God’s love causes the view of present day life to be blurred.
Please help me stop the myth that marriage is the ultimate reward from God!
Statistics prove there are just as many divorced Christians as non-christians. Didn’t all those divorced christians think on their wedding day they found god’s answer to prayer and proof of His love?
[Comment ID #27747 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well, I think WasThereWitnessedThat was merely trying to show BT Beauty one example of hope…
I didn’t read where WTWT specifically said this exact same thing was what she needed, or that marriage equals happiness. Just that their previous marital situation was very similar.
Still though, since she has been so miserably failed by some of the most important men in her life, I think she might perhaps find that meeting a good man some day, through whom God can use (in one way) to manifest His love to her, to be the start of a wonderful post script to her sad story. And, it wouldn’t hurt her kids to find a godly dad, either.
BTB—
My heart also goes out to you…as has already been said here, please don’t give up. Your Father sees your situation and He WILL take care of you.
I know from personal experience that tremendous comfort can be found from reading the Scriptures, and allowing them to sink into my brain, and then into my spirit:
“9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for AT THE PROPER TIME WE WILL REAP A HARVEST if we do not give up.” (Galatians 6:9)
“26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. ARE YOU NOT MUCH MORE VALUABLE THAN THEY?” (Matthew 6:26)
Another thing I do, BTB, almost as a trick for my emotions, is that when I start to feel overwhelmed by life is to sing from the Psalms…it’s truly AMAZING how, in just a few minutes, my spirit is lifted and I find strength when I do this. Praising God and singing to Him really does help, in an almost magical way.
I’m not sure about what friends you might have in your life right at the moment, but I do know that there ARE people HERE who DO care about you and all the junk you have gone through.
I’m praying for you.
joebib
Oh really? Thanks for that, I had no idea. Of course that’s the same term Jesus used in Matt 5:29…but thanks for nitpicking.
I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic or not here…I’d like to think so, but just don’t know with you Hungry…If you aren’t being sarcastic then I feel very sorry for you…I don’t think God created marriage so that we can understand “long suffering”, but whatever gets you through the day, I suppose.
To clarify my “opinion” for you, all I am saying is that I’ve seen plenty of people live in misery (as it sounds like you do now) because they don’t want to get divorced…they reach a point in their lives where they quit working on their marriage and decided to just co-exist because “that’s the Christian way to do things”.
But, as we have seen here in Matthew, Jesus clearly gets to the heart and is not as worried about appearances. Let me try to offer my opinion again in a slightly different way.
You have heard it said that “God hates divorce” but I tell you that anyone who quits working on their marriage has committed divorce in their hearts already.
[Comment ID #27749 Will Be Quoted Here]
Dear Jobib:
Thank you for your response to the previous commentaries. You said it far more elequently than I could have.
Yes, my purpose was to show that there is hope, to someone who needed hope, by that example, thru Christ in the darkest of life’s situations.
Another short story of hope: ( oh, no! )
As a kid and young adult I grew up in the worst possible conditions which included absolute poverty with a drunken, abusive, wife beating parent. Every day was frigtening when ever he was home. His absence brought peace and relief.
But in all of this we had an Ace, that is a God loving, praying, mother. In all the circumstance in that home, she always prayed for a better life for her children. Thru her faith we were given hope, someday things will be better.
Most of us are aware of that precious old movie, “The Wizard Of Oz”. It’s theme song, “Some Where Over The Rainbow” was always a favorite song to sing in troubled times. As a troubled teen, that song became my theme song and gave me hope. One day I came to the end of myself. I declared, “Some Where Over The Rainbow” there is a better way of life and I’m going to find it!!
At mid-teen years, with a small amount of “borrowed” money I was hitch hiking to where ever. Didn’t really matter. Anything else would be better.
But along the way, God made a path to follow. Along the way I made some very wrong choices and many difficulties had to be faced. But I still had that same “Ace” as before,and God answered. Inspite of my dicisions, God kept me. By His mercy and grace he continues to gude my way.
Today, following God’s ways and keeping him at the center of life, I have a good life. This includes a marriage to a most wonderful wife and two adult children. End of story? No! Still a long way off.
The point of all this is to offer hope to all who trust in God. No matter what your circumstances are, thru Him, they will become better.
I’m in agreement with Pope. I, too, was wondering at first if HOTH’s remarks weren’t sarcastic. Having re-read her comments a coupla times, I think she was being serious.
I think your hermeneutic, HOTH, is a bit jaded. I seriously don’t wish to offend, but I do feel for someone who views marriage as something the Lord created in order to help us learn the meaning of “miserableness,†“selfishness,†“difficulty,†or any of the other negative ways you describe your marriage.
In fact, He did it for just the opposite reason — see Genesis 2:18-25.
Paul teaches us that marriage is intended to mirror the mutual agape-love between Christ and His Church (see Ephesians 5:22-32). Not the world’s love, which is based solely on fickle emotions, chemical attraction, or fleeting good looks, but rather a love based on the decision, and the will, to seek the best good for someone else.
joe-b
James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
The whole point of Jesus’ sermon is not to mutilate ourselves, but to examine our HEARTS, as out of our hearts spring the issues of life…no amount of external constraint-whether it’s the law, or self mutilation, or threat of hell an change the “HEART” of a person, our behavior reflects what we really are in our heart…like the rebellious toddler being forced to sit down who says, “I may be sitting on the outside, but I’m standing on the inside!!”
I’m fairly certain we are on the same page here, it’s just a little wrinkled.
Much of the rest of your comment displays the ‘entitlement’ mentality that has so confused much of Christianity today. We really seem to think that we have the ‘right’ to live our lives free from any difficulties, stress, pain, etc….
What DOES God say to do with a difficult spouse?
(1 Corinthians 7:10-16)
Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
Wow. It seems like God cares more for the salvation of our unbelieving spouse than He does for our comfort…unless our lives are at stake? Duhh!
)
Take note of the ‘buts’ in the previous section. God always holds up an ideal, or His will, yet seems to make an allowance, knowing what stiffnecked and rebellious people He is dealing with. (As when Jesus told the pharisees Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of your heart, but in the beginning this was not so)
I doubt there is a family in this generation who has not been touched by divorce–whether their parents, grandparents, siblings, or themselves. So, just because it is so common, we should just accept it and promote it and pursue it whenever our mate is mean to us? I’m sorry, but I will not. I am just simple minded enough to believe in the ideals of God’s word.
Have you read the story of Abigail? She herself called Naban a scoundrel and a Son of Satan…gee…I wonder if he was just mean to everybody else, or did she possibly suffer a bit as well? It makes for an interesting read (1 Samuel 25) how God eventually rewards her for her character.
Romans 8:18
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Heaven forbid we should have to suffer any in this present time…
Don’t worry, you wouldn’t offend, I can agree to disagree amiably. And, I am not describing my marriage with those words, either. I have a pretty good marriage, although it’s not perfect, since it is the union of two flawed people whom God is still working on. I am also perfectly aware of the reason for marriage. You forgot Song of Solomom in your example…A beautiful analogy of the love of God for His bride…if you interpret it that way…:o)
However, if every marriage were ‘made in heaven’, how do YOU explain the number of divorces? Surely you are not so naive as to think that in every single case of divorce in the last century the very life of somebody was at stake? That without fail, every individual divorce was due to a drunk or an alcoholic spouse sending his/her mate to the hospital for reconstructive surgery? Or that only adulterers get divorces? I’m certain you know better than that…Hmmm….that thought is very similar to the arguement that has caused millions of babies to be killed in this country–”the life of the mother may be at stake”….they’re right I suppose, it would be a shame to have to sacrifice for any life other than your own…
Could it be that God holds marriage up as an unbreakable covenant so that if we are unfortunately enough to get a ‘bad one’ we could know that He can empathize because His Bride has been adulterous to Him? That He understands our pain as He yearns jealously for our love and we willfully and rebelliously walk our own way? Or, so we could know that we walk in His shoes with our efforts to love someone who rejects us?….just a thought…
Hebrews 4:14-16
Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Dear Hungry,
I hope your life starts to improve soon. No one needs to be as miserable as you are.
-RP
Dear RP,
Misery is a choice. I do not choose it.
I hope your vision improves soon, it makes getting through life’s difficulties and hardships alot easier…and does not leave a bitter aftertaste….*chuckle*
HOTH
ok
(Hungry on the Harbor said: “…You forgot Song of Solomom in your example…A beautiful analogy of the love of God for His bride…if you interpret it that way…:o) “)
Good point, and yes, I do interpret it that way. You have several good thoughts in your post, and I think we are seeing things from essentially the same position.
I also think you make some valid points in your reply to RP about the bottom line which God wants for all of our lives, and I appreciate your belief in holding to a higher standard concerning the plethora of divorces in our day — the great number of which much surely grieve the Lord.
HOTH, I’m glad you’re marriage isn’t as miserable as it seemed (to me) you were implying it was in your previous post.
Didn’t mean to jump to a wrong conclusion.
-joebib
I have noticed that we tend to approach biblical passages from our modern points of view. As such, when we read Matthew 5, are we reading the Bible with our own marital presuppositions in mind?
Has anyone really studied what the original context was for this passage? What was marriage like then? Were men and women equals, or were women still considered men’s property? How many marriage partners could one have either at a time or sequentially? What was Jesus saying in that context? Was he speaking in a Jewish context or a Roman context?
Then we need to analyze marriage in our own context. It is a civil right, a religious rite, or both? Our institution is usually based on equals, but Jesus seems to presuppose that marriage is not. Is this prescriptive of all marriages, or simply descriptive of marriages in his historical context?
Finally, how to the two contexts — ancient and modern — relate to each other? What do we take from one context and apply to the other?
I’m not asking these questions to be difficult. I’ve been told in sermon after sermon that divorce is bad, but usually that conclusion seems to be based on a cursory reading of the Bible. I’d just like to see someone address this topic or these types of questions in a more in-depth manner. Any thoughts?
Go for it.
Dave Mackin – I notice you have not commented on this subject. I am curious about your Biblical view on divorce as it relates to practical everyday life in 2007.
I’ve heard that the definition of an expert is; “somebody who takes something simple and makes it difficult“…..:o)
Fortunately for me, I did not grow up in the church, so I don’t feel the need to have every scripture verse scrutinized, I just read it, believe it, and trust that God wants even the most spiritually illerate person to ‘get it’. He hates divorce. It doesn’t matter who or how many have done it before, He hates it. He has held up a clear ideal, in several places in scripture, it’s up to us to obey, even when it is hard.
Besides, Whom should we be seeking to learn these ‘difficult concepts’ from?
)
Psalm 25:4
Show me Your ways, O LORD;Teach me Your paths.
Psalm 25:5
Lead me in Your truth and teach me,For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day.
Psalm 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD;Therefore He teaches sinners in the way.
Psalm 25:9
The humble He guides in justice,And the humble He teaches His way.
Psalm 25:12
Who is the man that fears the LORD?Him shall He teach in the way He chooses.
Psalm 27:11
Teach me Your way, O LORD,And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
……….and the list goes on……:o)
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
The problem seems to be, I don’t think we really want to know the truth, since if it was a snake it would bite us square on the nose….
‘course, that’s just my jaded two cents…*wink*
[Comment ID #27735 Will Be Quoted Here]
That’s wierd, she gets to nurse him? Sounds dysfunctional to me. I understand we need to turn the other cheek but he’s her x and he committed adultry. Why the heck is she nursing him? I would say she needs to pray for him and ask God to forgive him for his trespasses and ask that he might be turned back to God but to nurse him.? That doesn’t sound right to me.
Hungry, I understand your heart desires to do the right thing. You think this will bring you closer to God. You are putting so much emphasis on being good and doing whatever is right no matter the cost. I caution, from experience, your approach to Bible is dangerous. It is binding and constricting. It is somewhat like the way the young men who flew the planes into the world trade center use the Koran. If we literally take scripture to apply it in this way, then we will be poking out our eye when we see a bill board while driving down the street.
Was There Witnessed That … did you mean the fluzzy got to nurse him??? or his ex?
[Comment ID #27751 Will Be Quoted Here]
That’s right. And if you are the only one working on the marriage and the other is not willing…you are abosolutely right, just to coexisit together is wrong. We are not to just coexisit but to adhere (cleave).
I think leaving is more than just packing your bags and heading out the door. The kind of attitude that says me, me, me needs to be addressed. Sometimes that kind of pressure (the address) is too much for the “its all about me” person and they start acting out. And if the unbeliever leaves Paul says let him leave we are not under bondage in such cases.
I was just talking to a person who’s spouse constantly used manipulation in the marriage by saying things like, “I’m going to leave”, “your not my soul mate”, “I’m going to go find my soul mate”. One day they said “I’m going to leave” and the other spouse said OK, I release you, go. The manipulative spouse was stunned. They frantically drove to the persons work and said, I’m leaving, I’m going to go live with my parents in such and such state. They said, OK go, I think you need to go. Sad, sad, sad. Now they are trying to tell the person they are causing the children to suffer because they won’t reconcile.
I really believe if everything they were telling me were true, they were under no bondage to stay in such a marriage. Mind you they were married for ten years, their roles were a mess. The one spouse simply released the other person.
[Comment ID #27730 Will Be Quoted Here]
[Comment ID #27772 Will Be Quoted Here]
We do need to break the scriptures down, research and put things in their historical settings. Greek can have several different meanings as does English, however Greek and Hebrew tend to have more. Scripture can be eaisly misintrepreted if not researched. I agree with tireasis we need to do a little more digging… ourselves. It is our responsibility and yes the HS will enlighten us HOTH I totally agree with you on that.
However I do not beleive in being a “layman” (someone who lays by a lake). I perfer to dig, the word really can come to life when you do a little more. It keeps you safe from false doctrines and from following man made doctrines.
[Comment ID #27776 Will Be Quoted Here]
OK I get it now…I misunderstood. I thought the ex was nursing the ex. But now the fluzzy gets to nurse the ex. Got it.
I have read every post here. I find this an extremely interesting subject. Though I have not commented further, I thank all of you who have tried to encourage and uplift me.
I thought if I served God all my life that I would be blessed with a heavenly marriage. I think it is very misleading of the church to promise things from God (to naive people who want to believe)that can’t be guaranteed.
I believe Christians in general have been the biggest contributor to causing divorce. That is why divorce among Christians is so high. By misleading people into thinking that if they follow God everything will be okay, we have perpetuated the very problem we have been trying so hard to avoid.
BT Beauty “By misleading people into thinking that if they follow God everything will be okay, we have perpetuated the very problem we have been trying so hard to avoid. ”
I AGREE 100% !!!! THE PULPIT IS PROMISING “THE AMERICAN DREAM” AS IF IT WERE GOD’S PROMISE. NOT JUST WITH FINANCES, BUT WITH THE WHOLE PACKAGE, BEAUTIFUL FAMILY, PERFECT KIDS, TOTAL HEALTH. WHEN LIFE TURNS OUT TO BE DIFFICULT WE BLAME OURSELVES OR GOD. THAT MESSAGE IS IN THE BACKGROUND OF PEOPLE’S MINDS WHEN THEY SEE OTHERS GOING THROUGH HARD TIMES TOO, BY WAY OF FEELING PROTECTED, “THEY MUST HAVE BROUGHT IT ON THEMSELVES’.
GOD PROMISES TO BE WITH ME THROUGH WHATEVER, BLESSING OR TROUBLES. THAT IS THE ONLY PROMISE I CLING TO ANYMORE.
So I know this makes me the most ridiculous (and possibly annoying) person but I just can’t seem to keep myself from saying this:
“fluzzy” is not a correct spelling option for the word floozy. Here are three options that are:
floosie, floosy, floozie
Those are all linguistically acceptable — fluzzy is not.
Aaaaaaagh–I hate myself for this too!
[Comment ID #27779 Will Be Quoted Here
The fluzzy won this prize. The ex, has now moved on and lives a happy life.
[Comment ID #27804 Will Be Quoted Here]
O.K.
Thanks for correcting my misguided grammer. This is gettihg more difficult than expected. I will try to make more clear. So get ready.
The floosie or floosy or floosie, but not fluzzy, that stole away the male-ex(the bad ex) from the female ex(the good ex) is in the dubious position of having to nurse the male ex at the end of his days. The female ex has now moved on and has a happy life. Now do you have it?
WOW!! This makes me realize just how bad I need to get a real life.
WTWT means that the woman has to nurse, as in take care, of the old geezer. Duh. Some people are such morons.
Fluzzy means
(1) “Sleeping when you have the flu” as in I don’t feel so well so need to catch a few z’s
(2) “what someone with a speach problem calls a person named Susie.” as in Fammy’s aunt Fuzzy is visiting her Fister.
Yeah, this is fun for me.
I am a nerd.
[Comment ID #27810 Will Be Quoted Here]
ginning
How funny. In a sarcastic pose at correcting yourself, you apologized for your “grammer” (instead of your grammar). You also left words out of the post, making your point less, not more clear. I got your point from the beginning (no need to get into Annoyed’s style of saying DUH and calling people ‘such morons’ on what I presumed to be a site for Christians). I’m merely pointing out the danger of rude sarcasm for a really humble and apologetic correction. There are so many tools for avoiding such embarrassing mistakes anyway– especially if one wishes to get ugly without looking foolish.
Hey all –
Well, I haven’t been able to read all the comments on this post, because I think my contacts would suck all the life out of my eyes if I tried. So if someone has already said this…
There is a lot of talk about the context in which divorce is discussed, the language, and the setting. Well, my husband and I were dangerously close to divorce two years ago – I had moved into an apartment and we both were just ready to move on. One night I sat down and cried to God, and asked Him to show me what I was supposed to do. Well, I felt very convicted, and I opened my Bible and read passages about marriage and divorce. Here is my conclusion, which lead to my marriage reconciliation and subsequent parting with the WOF church we were attending that had played an integral part in drawing us apart:
Marriage is a symbol. It is a symbol of union between God and His church, between Christ and His Bridegroom. It’s true – there are biblical grounds for divorce – but ultimately, if both people in the marriage are believers, they voluntarily entered into a covenant with God to be a symbol of Him and His church. That is why God hates divorce – because He would never divorce His church. Marriage is a symbol of God’s devotion to His people.
It took every ounce of energy that I had left in my soul to reconcile with my husband – after reading my Bible, I knew that if I loved God and truly believed in Him, that I would be obedient to fulfill the covenant that I entered into. I had to believe that if I was faithful to Him, He would restore my brokenness. At the time, I did not reconcile with my husband because I wanted to be with him again – it was because I knew that the symbol we represented was too important to throw away. God is faithful and loving to His people. Being obedient to God is more important than the justification for divorce that the world shoves down my throat. It’s not about me – it’s about Him. He is what makes me whole – not my husband. My marriage would not work until I took my husband off of the pedestal that is reserved only for my God.
I was not a victim of domestic violence, adultery, or abuse – those situations are unique in their treatment. I had a selfish heart, which is no reason for divorce – and is usually the #1 reason most divorces happen.
Two years later…my marriage is not perfect, and it never will be, because I am not perfect and neither is my husband. But it’s purpose remains the same…it is symbolic, and it is a covenant. I would encourage anyone considering divorce to seek wise counsel from couples who have been married for many years – and to read the Bible – the answers are pretty clear.
Ok, I’m done. Great discussion – I love this blog.
Has anyone listened to Joseph Web’s sermons on Divorce and Remarriage? They are very good. A mp3 download can be found herehere.
[Comment ID #27825 Will Be Quoted Here]
Duh ! I feel like such an uneducated twit (sp)
Everyone should just forget it. I am sorry to have caused more confusion and annoyance with my neurotic obsession with fluzzy (seriously though, it’s like fuzzy with an l thrown in–and that is a silly sounding non-word). But now that I say it over and over to myself, it is growing on me.
Excellent post, Kara, thanks for sharing….:o)
Your obedience WILL be blessed, as God desires it far above our shallow religious sacrifices…
BT/CBC– not allowing divorcees to be elders.. Ron Smith…
Then there is Jerry McKinney.. he was divorced.. They had this policy that a person could not have more than “1 attendant” at their wedding if there was divorce.. yet he married Gini Smith’s sister and Tami had the line up of attendants and junior attendants and whatever else to make up her own army…. double standard now, double standard back then.
Through the hard times of marriage isn’t it more meaningful to stay together to work it out if you know you can leave? It seems the feeling of being “stuck”, would bring on depression or worse, “numbing out” would prevail so much more for people with the view that God would hate them if they feel unable to fulfill a role or expectation?
Not if your “spouse” is beating the snot out of you. Time to grow hairs on your chest and LEAVE.. don’t walk, RUN.. and call the police on the way.
Divorce is one of the most devistating things that happens in our society. According to our scriptural teachings God does hate divorce. So call it sin if you will. Even so, it is not an unforgivable sin! Remember,our God is full of grace and mercy to forgive. There is no need for anyone to go through life filled with guilt and self persecution because of it.
I have cause to ponder.
Is it really the act of divorce or the breaking of the sacred vows taken before God resulting in divorces that greives Him most? Are broken vows the real sin? If there is guilt, is it properly placed?
I’m not trying to troll by bringing up a different topic, but this is one of my major issues with churches. They say god hates gay relationships, and the bible says god hates divorce,
So if gay people should have to try to live in straight relationships, then shouldn’t christian couples have to stay married even when they don’t want to be together any more? But does that happen?
The last church I was at, the pastor was divorced and after 10 years of preaching got married to someone in the church.
During one of his many political sermons he gave against gay marriage, the topic of born-that-way-into-sin vs. lifestyle choice inevitably surfaced. He said if people are truly born gay, then (like an alcoholic) they should just “quiet the longing of their flesh”.
But honestly, shouldn’t he have to as well? Shouldn’t he have to go back to his first non-christian wife and quiet the longing his own flesh? Which makes me wonder: what would a church do with a christian pastor married to a non-christian wife?
When a man and woman come together in marriage and make a covenant vow before God, God acknowledges their vow and makes them one (sex does not make them one, otherwise fornication would not exist). If the couple decides to divorce and remarry another, Jesus said this is adultery (Mt. 5:32; Luke 16:18). In God’s eye, it is adultery because they are fornicating outside of their covenant vows. The couple cannot annul a covenant vow made before God, they can only violate it. (Job 22:27; Jer. 44:25; Ecc. 5:1-7)
If someone divorces their spouse, they should first seek reconciliation when possible. If they cannot be reconciled, they should remain single and NOT remarry. (1 Cor. 7:10-11). They are bound to this as long as their first spouse lives (Rom. 7:3).
The real concern is for those who do remarry. I believe this is a salvation issue, because God said in his word in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, that adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. A disciple of Christ cannot remain in their sin and think they are serving the most high. Remember the parable of plucking out your eye if it causes you to sin. It’s better for you to loose one member of your body than to be thrown into hell. If someone remains in their sin, Jesus will say to them “I never knew youâ€, because they worked lawlessness (or refused to do what God said to do). It doesn’t matter if they are a minister or a lay person; you cannot excuse your sin with “service to God†and think you will inherit eternal life. It’s only when someone leaves an adulterous relationship is when God’s forgiveness comes.
Many will balk at this teaching for a number of reasons and excuses:
1. “God knows my heart.†“A man’s own folly ruins his life, yet his heart rages against the Lord.†(Pr 19:3)
2. “I’m burning in lust, and it’s better for me to remarry.†The scripture referenced is 1 Co. 1-9, and it is being used out of context. It is addressing single couples, not divorced couples.
3. “God wants me to be happy, so I need to be remarried.†No, God would rather you be in hardship with obedience, than comfort with continual sin.
4. “I can remarry because Jesus will forgive my sins.†Jesus will forgive those who turn from their sins, and not remain in them. You can only repent from adultery, when you confess your sin and leave the relationship. Can a homosexual couple repent while still maintaining their lifestyle with each other? No. What if they are joined in a “civil union�
5. “I’ve started a new family, so I cannot leave.†This is difficult position to be in, but listen to Dr. Joseph’s Webb sermon listed on my previous post. (response too long)
6. “Everyone I know will condemn my decision to leave my current family.†Jesus said following him may divide the family (Mt. 10:34:39)
7. “Divorce is so common, it cannot be that bad.†“Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.†(Mt. 7:13). Does God change his word based upon societal norms?
8. “My kids and I have been abused, so I need a divorce.†It’s unfortunate if abuse comes into play, but it doesn’t give you grounds to remarry. You should separate for the sake of you and your family, but pray that the partner will be reconciled.
9. “My pastor is divorced, and he’s a man of God.†Jesus said that not everyone who serves him is his disciple. See Mt. 7:21-23. Also, pastors who remarry divorces couples are part of the problem at hand.
10. “God is after love, not something that would harm a family.†Love is interceding for those who walk astray. What is worse, 2 people going to hell forever, or a family breaking up under biblical conviction?
11. “What if my spouse cheated on me?â€. Again, listen to Dr. Joseph’s Webb sermon listed on my previous post. It will cover the Matthew exception clause (response too long.
-Kevin
You were on a pretty good roll until this comment…When Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, and He told her to go and get her husband, she told Him that she didn’t have one. He agreed, and then said that she had in fact had FIVE husbands. (John 4:17-19)
If the Lord acknowledged that she could have five husbands, then at whatever point He had met her along the way littered with husbands, He would not have told her to leave her latest husband. A marriage is a covenant, and after one covenant is broken, and you make another, you are still sinning to break the new covenant. That’s why in the old testament, where it is talking about marriage and divorce, it says that if a woman is divorced and remarries another, then is divorced from her next husband, or her second husband dies, her first husband is forbidden to remarry her, because it is an abomination.(Deuteronomy 24:1-4)
When we are forgiven from our sins, we start fresh with a new slate. If we are on our sixth marriage when this happens, we start from that point on, and do not divorce again. No place in scripture does it tell you to go back and ‘fix your sins’, on the contrary, we are to look forward and press on toward the upward calling of Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hungry on the Harbor,
Please show me any scripture in the Bible where God will “forgive” your covenant vows.
Concerning Deuteronomy 24:1-4, this not a commandment from God, it is a commandment from Moses who “suffered you” because of your hard hearts. Please reread Matthew 5:27-32, Matthew 19:3-12, and Mark 10:1-12. In these scriptures, you will see Jesus tell the Pharisees that Moses wrote you these commandments, not God.
God doesn’t ‘forgive’ our covenant vows, He forgives our sins, which we commit by breaking those covenants and committing adultery against Him, not man.
Please read the story of Hosea and you will see God’s incredible hatred of sin, followed by mercy and a patient pursuing of His stiffnecked people….God does not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It is their choice……..but they will not be able to say it was God’s fault when they reap eternal consequences from poor choies…
Hungry,
I understand that God can forgive the sin of divorce if there is true repentance, but what about the original covenant they made before God? Does the new covenant that they make with their new spouse override the old one? If so, please show me in the Bible where this is so? Also, why does Jesus call this adultery?
Also, concerning the woman at the well… we do not know for certain if this woman is a long standing divorcee, or a widow of 5 men, and was in an adulterous relationship at the time. We assume she is divorced… If it’s the former, then Jesus is correct in calling them “husbandsâ€. If it’s the later, Jesus is still technically correct calling them “husbandsâ€, because that is what society calls a man when he is bound to a woman. In this case, I don’t think Jesus affirmed their covenant by calling them what he did. But others may disagree… Either way, this is too vague of a scripture to justify your position on. There are mountains of other scriptures that state otherwise.
Okay, here is a question for all you smart asses…I mean people. (Oops). What if someone makes a marriage covenant with someone based on lies? Does that invalidate the contract?
For example, my illegal immigrant ex and his illegal immigrant girlfriend tricked me into marriage so they could get their citizenship. They knew I was a Christian and wouldn’t take marriage lightly. I stayed for years because I had made a covenant.
How’s that for a question? Answers, please…
A new covenant nullifies any old covenants. A quick study of a covenant will show that if a covenant is broken, by making a new one you cannot ‘fix’ it, it no longer exists. The new one breaks the old one, that is why a divorced person is to remain single; to hopefully reconcile the as yet unbroken covenant, as once they are remarried, the new covenant cancels the old, and they can not go back to the old without breaking the new.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.â€
Hebrews 8:12-13
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.†In that He says, “A new covenant, †He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
The covenant that has been broken by divorce is not with the spouse, but with God. When David lusted after Bethsheba, then committed adultery, he then brought Uriah home to cover up his mess. Uriah was too honorable to lie with his wife while a battle was going on and his friends were dying, so David sends him up to the front line to get killed.
Later, when David is convicted, he cried out, I have sinned against the Lord–not Uriah, not Bathsheba, and not his child who died on his account. Every sin we commit is against the Lord, and we have broken covenant against HIM, when we disobey and divorce, not against a spouse.
BT Beauty— Ignore these oafs here who seem to be implying that you lost grace or favor or status or something by leaving the creep in your life.
You did the right thing. I am proud of you for finally being able to do it. Many women don’t and end up dead, their children also.
Hold your head high BT Beauty. You ARE a 1st class citizen in the Kingdom of God. No back seat for you ANYWHERE.
I just want to echo this sentiment. You absolutely did the right thing, BT Beauty. Jesus is proud of you.
However, if people wonder why Christians get a bad name. Here is an example.
This website purports to answer Biblical questions. And here is one regarding abusive relationships.
According to this Christian website, it is okay to divorce a man if he is sleeping around, but not if he is beating you.
Ridiculous.
BT –
Well, I am not God, and no one here is. So no one here can judge you and decisions that you have made. Your situation is similar to a few other people in my life – and my heart goes out to them. A few questions that run through my mind are:
If you marry someone who is not Christian (even if the claim to be – hence the lies) was a covenant even possible in the first place?
If a spouse is being abused – is that a form of abandonement, that would be a biblical grounds for divorce?
An continuously abusive relationship is obviously not healthy and is not a proper representation of Christ’s love for the church. I would seriously question whether to follow the advice of someone that claims you must stay bound to a damaging marriage to an unbeliever. My decision to reconcile with my husband is totally different that your situation – I had a spouse that was willing to reconcile and we never abused eachother. We were just selfish – which I think covers the majority of divorces in the church. Divorce is a horrible thing when it tears apart a family that is capable of serving God together in a loving, respectful way. God bless -
I personally know KevinL, and he would never tell BT Beauty to stay in the abusive relationship. He and I both believe the scriptures are clear on that (she can leave).
I believe BT Beauty is absolutely right for leaving that relationship and shaking the dust off her feet, for the record. I also think the church has failed her by judging her and not supporting her (spiritually, relationally and financially).
I believe getting remarried after divorce is adultery, not because I want to believe that, but because I think that is what Jesus was saying in the Gospels. It is a hard position to take, since people I love and cherish are divorced and remarried.
If that makes me an ass or an oaf then so be it. If you want to talk about the scriptures that make us come to a different conclusion than you, by all means I am open to do that. I would love to be wrong on this issue. If you want to pass judgment and call names, then feel free to do that as well. It’s a free country.
I think that Kevin’s comments are right on the ball. When Jesus talks about divorce – he says what he means, and he means what he says. It is pretty clear. I was ready for divorce – then I read what Jesus had to say about it, and I thought – “Crap. I know better now.”
It is not about ‘living in misery’ or ‘unhappy bondage’ as some have suggested. It is about fulfilling your promises to the best of your ability and making sacrifices that are still nothing compared to what Jesus did for us. God will reward the faithful – and he has blessed me with a healed heart and to this day I believe that our reconciliation was the Holy Spirit giving us self-control – a fruit of the Spirit. Through the whole experience, I am stronger for it.
Marriage is something that needs to be treated very seriously by believers. But it’s not. Proof:
When I moved out and was seriously questioning the WOF church my husband and I attended – I made my concerns very clear to my husband (who was also the youth pastor), his family, and the church. Well, he went up for prayer during a ‘miracle service’ one night, and a ‘prophetess’ told him, in front of witnesses, that God said I was being like Lot’s wife, and that he was not to look back for me. I was being disobedient.
Churches are saying this crap! No wonder marriage/divorce is ‘no big deal.’
CRAIG__
Your answer was wise, and rang about as close to the truth as one can get. Most of us, especially those of us who are compassionate, DON’T want to believe that those they love are in adultery. It is those who will serve and believe G-d even above their personal preference and trust His wisdom over their human wisdom who show real strength. It is not the easy, judgmental position to take, but the difficult one. These are truly cherished people to us, and those who claim otherwise are the ones in unscriptural judgment; only G-d can judge the heart.
Hungry,
It is true that God can make an old covenant obsolete with a new one; such as what happened on the cross. A covenant can be made between either two parties in the sight of God (e.g. between Jacob and Laban) or between God himself (e.g. the nation Israel and God). In the case of marriage, “covenant vows†are made between the man and woman (e.g. to love, honor, and cherish…. til death do you part), and God honors this and make the two one, providing both are not in covenant from another spouse. If it was not this way, and marriage was a covenant made between the individual and God, then why does Jesus call divorce and remarriage adultery? Shouldn’t the new covenant replace the old?
A person cannot ‘commit adultery’ unless they are in fact married. That is the covenant. The adultery has already (usually) happened if someone divorces. The covenant is damaged at that point, but not broken, that is why it is still possible and preferable to reconcile.
Once a new marriage is made, a new covenant is made, and the old one is obsolete. By leaving a marriage and ‘becoming one flesh’ with another, (1 Corinthians 6:16) you have canceled out the first covenant. You can’t be ‘one flesh’ with more than one person. (1 Corinthians 7:15)
To, Living Life and Catalyst…THANK YOU! I needed to hear that God loves me too even though I’m divorced.
Which gets me thinking about divorce and remarriage…why should I save myself for marriage and then be tricked into marriage by an evil man and then (because he tricked me ) lose all chance of ever knowing what love between a man and woman is like? Would God condemn me like that for something that was not my fault but something that happened because, in my innocence, I was trying to follow the Lord?
What I’m trying to say is that I believe God wouldn’t do that. There must be some exceptions to this “no remarriage” thing, even if it’s through forgiveness only. Otherwise, God would be a cruel and unkind God.
[Comment ID #27831 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow that is awesome, what a great testimony.
[Comment ID #27885 Will Be Quoted Here]
I got it Hungry even if kevin didn’t.
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Yeah, oh my gosh, what the heck! I think your forgiven, your forgiven, I forgive you.
Great dialog, I wish to be as eloquant but probably won’t be. I thought adultry was a term used only if you were married. If you are not married it’s called fornication.
So sexual intercourse outside of marriage you are considered a fornicator and if you are married and you have sex with another person other than your spouse, (or if you look on another in your heart) you have committed adultry.
So if you’ve fornicated before marriage, can you then marry? If you’ve looked on another person in your heart with lust before your married can you then marry? So why wouldn’t it be the same for a divorced person. Paul says it’s better to marry than to burn.
I would say if a person is truly repentant, and wants to have a sexual relationship with another they should get married. Other wise your going to be fornicating.
God forgives our sin of adultry, just as much as he forgives our sin of homosexuality, or lust for control, or sin of pride or sin of fornicating.
However I am aware that Paul also says it would be better to remain single, and I can understand that also.
Hello,
Marriage and divorce what great topics but also very hard to find answer.
I think it is very unsettling to point out what the Bible actually says regarding marriage and divorce, although there are few scriptures pointing that “God hates divorce”, etc, etc…
But don’t you all think that most of our discussion point of view comes from covenant theology (sounds familiar?)
I think, before “marriage” was institutionalized and acknowledge in Judeo-Christian tradition, the union of man and woman was already part of human civilization. The Bible reflects the intention of God for this union, but I believe that God’s intention is not imposed in this fallen world; that’s where Jesus Christ is stepping in & providing grace for human imperfectness.
I think, it is our default to always “wanting’ to do the right thing -> in order to get some kind of approval for our action -> so then we will have some kind of safety -> that our action is not against the majority…blah,blah, blah
My point is, who are we (as Christians) make ourselves as judge to say what is sin and what is not? Who is sinner and who is not?
The Jesus that I know, He came as a servant not as a judge, he did not condemn but welcomed and affirmed that we are forgiven.
So what did Jesus mean then when he said divorce and remarriage was adultery?
[Comment ID #28042 Will Be Quoted Here]
Please don’t let this be a permanent diversion from the topic at hand, but I had to reply to that last post:
The fact that Jesus was a servant certainly does not mean that He condones sin; G-d is ever righteous, and “does NOT wink at sin” (my caps). Furthermore, Christians do *indeed* have the right to judge good from evil, practicing wisdom and discernment– that is, in fact, a Scriptural command and pretty indispensable advice. The kind of judgment in which we are NOT to indulge is that reserved only for G-d– determinations of which only HE is capable, such as who can be saved, and upon whom He will have mercy. It’s very important to know the difference and to quote IN context, not conveniently out (a quick path to both confusion and heresy). If indeed you are a Christian, please don’t get sucked into the mere parroting of the world’s excuse to sin. The extent of their knowledge of the Word of G-d, and the limit to which the average unbeliever is able to study or ‘quote’ the Bible seems to be, “Don’t judge! Yer bible says don’t judge!”
Correction: meant to say “the world’s BIGGEST excuse to sin.”
[Comment ID #28050 Will Be Quoted Here]
I looked up “commit adultry” in the Greek dictionary of the NT and it comes from 3431/3432 – a (male) paramour; fig. apostate: – adulterer. In Matthew 5:27 it is used in the active voice ie. adultry.
In Matthew 5:32 “commit adultry’ comes from 3429, in the complete Word Study Dictionary it states “Moichatai, The phrase, “whosoever marries a dismissed woman” (a.t.), refers to an innocent woman unjustifiably dismissed by her licentious husband and not having been given a bill of divorcement clearing her of extramarital sexual sin (see Matt. 5:31 and Deut. 24:1-4). She must bear upon herself the presumed and assumed guilt of an adultress because of the action of her husband! My (!)
Maybe it helps a little bit when we look things up, then we won’t have a heavy hanging over our head.
I think you need to look things up!!
[Comment ID #28054 Will Be Quoted Here]
Why do you always use G-d and not just spell out God. It reminds me of my Mother when she used to cuss…that G-d so and so.
anna —
For one possible answer, you can cut and paste this to your browser:
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:2nL-vd_-P_0J:www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/spellgod.htm+why+use+G-d+for+God%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=21&gl=us
joe
G-d is in keeping with the ancient Hebrew tradition of spelling errors.
Remi says:
Please don’t let this be a permanent diversion from the topic at hand, but I had to reply to that last post:
The fact that Jesus was a servant certainly does not mean that He condones sin; G-d is ever righteous, and “does NOT wink at sin†(my caps). Furthermore, Christians do *indeed* have the right to judge good from evil, practicing wisdom and discernment– that is, in fact, a Scriptural command and pretty indispensable advice. The kind of judgment in which we are NOT to indulge is that reserved only for G-d– determinations of which only HE is capable, such as who can be saved, and upon whom He will have mercy. It’s very important to know the difference and to quote IN context, not conveniently out (a quick path to both confusion and heresy). If indeed you are a Christian, please don’t get sucked into the mere parroting of the world’s excuse to sin. The extent of their knowledge of the Word of G-d, and the limit to which the average unbeliever is able to study or ‘quote’ the Bible seems to be, “Don’t judge! Yer bible says don’t judge!â€
Wow You guys are amazingly smart!
Don’t you all think this will be such a great discussion too?
The case on “judging” good and evil? judging others? how much privilege or “right” are endowed to us to judge sin/sinner? what is tolerance, did Jesus actually teach about tolerance or not? does it mean we condone sin if we reserve our judgment? am I parroting the “world’s biggest excuse of sin” if I reserve the judgment/pointing finger and focus on establishing my faith and becoming a better person so I can be an example what it means to be Christian?
No I don’t believe tolerance is a word used in the bible, however forebarence is. Tolerance is a secular term. Those who define the terms rules. As Christians we need to beware.
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sorry joe don’t know how to cut and paste to my browser. Thanks anyway. I know how to put it on my desk top though is that close?
«Don’t you all think this will be such a great discussion too?
The case on “judging” good and evil? judging others? how much privilege or “right” are endowed to us to judge sin/sinner? what is tolerance, did Jesus actually teach about tolerance or not? does it mean we condone sin if we reserve
our judgment? am I parroting the “world’s biggest excuse of sin” if I reserve the judgment/pointing finger and focus on establishing my faith and becoming a better person so I can be an example what it means to be Christian?»
Dear Mr. Independent:
Are you actually asking a question? Are you actually asking a question? Are you actually asking a question? LOL Or preaching a mini new-age sermonette?
In all sincerity: Yes, the judgment question is and would be a great topic. As for the rest of your post, simply doing a word search with a good concordance (let the Holy Spirit Himself teach you from His Word before relying too heavily on commentary books– those can be good too, though) would go a long way with understanding the concept of judgment. I’m glad you are indeed a Christian and are trying to be an example. So should we all be. It can often take some time to strain out the brainwashing as ‘scripture’ of worldly philosophy and just accept the unadulterated truth of G-d’s Word.
No one has asked you to ‘point fingers’ or do anything else dramatic, dear IT. Correction is usually reserved for those older and more seasoned in their walk with G-d, and then only when they are led of the Spirit and can do so in love (not the harsh sense of holier-than-thouness that you seem to misinterpret as judgment). As I said, *study* if you really want answers; Strong’s concordance is most complete and is now even online. You won’t find much in most regular versions on ‘tolerance’– the world really tries to interpret ‘tolerance’ to mean ‘acceptance of any ungodly lifestyle’, anyway– but there’s plenty on loving your neighbor. Personally, I find it impossible to understand how ANYone could willingly allow anyone he/she loved to forgo the love of G-d, choosing the kingdom of Heaven over the kingdom of Hell and darkness… that’s wishy-washy Christianity: unwilling to stand for anything, no discipline, no commitment. I got news for you, too– Our Lord J-sus was no wimp. All the folk spouting their ‘original’ “I like your Christ but not your Christians” neither know Him, His character, or that which He espoused. None of us will ever measure up to the Christ, of course, and it would be foolish for our faith to be encouched in the perfection of the yet fallible church rather than in the Christ of that church.
Kind of you to say we’re smart; I believe, though, that we’re all just trying our best to live for the Lord with as much sincerity and fruitfulness as we are able while we’re here.
I think I understand where you’re coming from, dear brother, but there are LOTS of things to focus on besides ourselves. Indeed, we are to be first G-d centered, then others-honoring (‘centered’ here may not be the best word to use). If you’ve lived and ministered as long as I have and spoken to as many people as I have, I’d be really surprised to find that you *haven’t* heard the ‘don’t judge’ excuse to sin being as parroted as it is. Repeating the phrase, unfortunately, makes it no less true, my friend. Furthermore, I have often found that those shouting for peace and tolerance for everything (not really every ONE) are some of the least peaceful and certainly least tolerant (especially for Christians and the innocent) people that there are. No pointed accusations against YOU, you understand– this is genuinely a general observation: but I would like you to think about that, if you would.
I always believe it’s better to gain some actual insight– especially if it’s G-d’s heart on an issue– than to win the argument. I don’t want to bicker, insult, or have the last word, necessarily. You’re most likely a great person and you may very well end up far ahead of me in the kingdom of G-d. This isn’t a contest for any of us; we should all be holding each other up, encouraging (another good word study on this topic!) each other, sharpening each other and building each other up. Encouraging, I just have to insert here, is as in “unto good works,” not unto perversion and the ‘tolerance’ thereof.
Many of us may come across more harshly than we mean to (and even that’s not always the fault of the person, but of the limited communicate accurately through the mere printed word over bandwidth), but we must resist the temptation to JUDGE each other’s hearts by ultimately filtering (most likely based on past hurt and personal experience) every statement into personal attack.
Keep thinking independently, brother, but only of the world, not of the Truth (and no, I’m not asking you to take my version of it, but to study it for yourself until it becomes real and alive to you). Keeping a firm backbone to the common trendy philosophies of the day; or even what we have come to believe are our ‘own’ sacred knowledge (deified wisdom bestowed upon ourselves from our positions of self-deification) is what will require the greater fortitude.
Peace to you.
corrections of typos (sorry– I’m an obsessive editor):
…limited ABILITY TO communicate accurately;
…IS our own ‘sacred’ knowledge
And for the record: All my comments are strictly as a lifelong philosopher– general observations about a few things I’ve come to perceive as true of people (or even truth) in general. None of my comments (truly) are pointed at anyone in particular (indeed, I know none of you in particular), especially all present company, all of whom I respect.
I feel led, at this time in particular, to caution that we do not become embroiled in bitterness and the spread of such. The sowing of discord and bitterness among brethren and even the spirit thereof can be particularly insidious. The carriers thereof may not even realize that they have been steeped in it– and are infusing it through the church body wherever they go.
BT, my heart breaks for what you have suffered. I am fairly new to CB (about a year and a half), but I don’t know ANYone here who wouldn’t treat you with the utmost love and respect, including Pastor Frank. Would you please give us another chance? I personally would be so honored to get to know you and worship with you in the latest Beth Moore Bible study (starting Sept. 12!); I’ve known the L-rd for decades, but have experienced more inner healing than I ever imagined possible from these studies. For real– I will be the FIRST to throw my arms around you and let the love of Christ that I feel even now begin OUR recovery to wholeness: when you hurt, we hurt– we are ONE body.
[Comment ID #28130 Will Be Quoted Here]
anna–
Hold the LEFT click button on your mouse down while dragging the cursor across said text. This will highlight the text. Then, RIGTHT click that highlighted text and “copy” comes up. Then, RIGHT click “copy.” Now guide your cursor up into the long box (that has the current webpage address in it) at the top of the page on your screen, and RIGHT click it once the cursor’s in there. “Paste” comes up. RIGHT click “paste.” The selected text will now appear in the box. Now hit “enter” or LEFT click your “refresh” or “go” button. You should then be re-directed to that site.
Hope that helps.
joe
So joe if I do this what will happen? Will I be able to cut and paste parts and pieces of text that I am addressing without having retype what the other person has written? I’m a little lame at this and obviously confused. I mean I can follow your directions OK I just want to make sure what this will accomplish.
anna — there’s an easier way: highlight the text you want to copy like joe said. Then press the Ctrl and “C” keys (that stores the text in your temporary memory). Then go to where you want to type. When you are ready to paste the text, press the Ctrl and “V” keys and !!voila!! the text is inserted.
If you really want to get fancy, highlight the quote when it’s in your typing box and then click the “b-quote” button above the typing box. That will mark it as a quote.
Have fun!
grace,
just plain “anna”
anna Litical–
yeah, the “other” anna’s way is easier. Go for it
joebib
Did it work?