Divorce - Matthew 5:31-32
Posted on August 10th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Uncategorized, Reading Matthew categoryOk, on to Divorce. Le's see what Matthew 5:31-32 has to say on the subject:
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matt 5:31-32)
Seeing as how this scripture falls closely on the heal of the "eye gouging" verse how do we interpret it? I'm not sure…let's look at what is said about Divorce in the other Gospels:
2Some Pharisees came and tested him [Jesus] by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?"
3"What did Moses command you?" he replied.
4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."
5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
Mark just complicates things for me…first we see that "the Law" written by Moses permits divorce, but then Jesus says "No. No Divorce for you" (and in this scripture he doesn't even give an out for "marital unfaithfulness"). So, who/what do we follow? The Law of Moses? The words of Jesus that say that we must follow that Law (Matt 5:19)? Or the teachings of Jesus in Mark that we just read? Let's skip ahead to Luke:
It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery". (Luke 16:17-18)
It seems a little contradictory if we are to take Jesus exactly at His words here in these 3 scriptures. Let's break it down:
- 1. There is a Law that says you can divorce,
- 2. Nothing will ever "drop out of the Law"
- 3. Jesus says Divorce = Adultery
- 4. Audltery is a sin
…hmmmnnnn…I guess he isn't really creating a new Law disallowing divorce here, He's just saying if you get divorced you are breaking another Law, but go ahead…by the way, the punishment for Adultery is death by stoning…who's first?
In looking closer at these verses, it appears that in Matthew 5 Jesus says divorcing a woman causes her to become an adulterer (not the man) and the rest of the verses deal with re-marrying. Sounds like women are getting a raw deal here…this might make Jesus sexist…I'll let our resident feminists make that call though.
Here is another thought. If we are supposed to gouge out our eyes and cut off our hands if they cause us to sin, couldn't we apply that scripture to our spouses? Wouldn't it be better to sever a marriage if it were causing us to sin than for our "whole body to go into hell"? Maybe I'm just playing word games here.
To sum up what my interpretation of these scriptures are…I don't. I don't know what to do with all this…go ask a Bible scholar.
My personal opinion on divorce has always been this: God will not be pleased with you if you get a divorce…and God will not be pleased with you if you have a miserable marriage and only stay together because you are afraid of divorce.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:25 am
Sounds like a lose, lose situation for those women affected by domestic violence.
August 10th, 2007 at 8:29 am
I think Bible Temple used to have a rule that no man who got a divorce could be an elder. Or if you married a divorced woman you couldn't be an elder. …something like that… Anyway, this is always one of those tricky areas of the Bible that people tend to interpret just to fit their own lives. Unlike homosexuality, divorce is negotiable with God.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:05 am
My dad abandoned my mom when I was 13. I’d been raised in B.T. my whole life. Then they abandoned us because we didn’t have the perfect lives anymore and my mom was an outcast. So my teenage years were spent alone with no help from any church because of our situation. I met my husband who took advantage of that and abused me for years before I went to a shelter. Now I’m divorced and a survivor of domestic violence…and lately I’ve thought of going back because I can’t make it on my own.
And there is no one from B.T. (or any other church) who has helped me or my mother survive or who has treated me like a person. I live with my 3 beautiful children in a hopeless financial situation. So you people tell me…how do I tell my children that God cares about them when there is no proof? Those “perfect” Christians like Judah Smith and B.T. leadership don’t give a rip about divorced women like me…and I’m not sure right now that God does either. But I serve Him anyway. Why?
Because I’m not ready to give up. Because I want to believe that God loves us divorced people too. I think it is very sad that the people who have showed us the most compassion are non-Christians. I’ve heard many stories of B.T. imperfect or divorced people being ostracized by B.T. leadership. I hope they read this and are ashamed. I hope someday they take responsibility for all the lives they destroyed.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Wow!
1st: Reformed Pope, your whole argument about the contradiction is way off base. Let me break it down. Divorce is wrong (almost always) and to leave a wife to get a newer model is really wrong. The “Law of Moses” did not say that Divorce was not a sin. It said that Divorce was allowed via a certificate. This is Jesus being very consistent with how he handled the law.
Not only is Murder a sin but so is Anger!
Not only is Adultery a sin but so is “looking” (covet)
Not only is Divorce a sin but so is marrying someone with a divorce
He has not contradicted the law he has said that the law did not go far enough just like the rest of the sins.
2nd: B.T. Beauty, I am soooooooo sorry for how you feel about church. I hope you can realize that is not how it should be. Funny you bring up Pastor Judah, I go to City Church and both my wife are divorced and we (gasp) got together in adultery. We have had no problems becoming leaders in the church. Not because they think adultery is alright, but because that is not who we are any longer. CC also owns a womens shelter and I have personally heard both Pastor Wendell and Gini address Domestic Violence.
Maybe you can leave Portland and make a move to Seattle and see it done correctly with out hurt? I don’t know what God is telling you these days but when we lived in PDX there where reasons we never went to BT. But that being said CC IS NOT a carbon copy Seattle remix of BT. I am glad P. Wendell is on the MFI Board so that he can continue to help MFI with change. So many doctrines of our church would have been heretical to the old BT. For example women Pastors.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:51 am
I personally don’t think it’s the church’s place to get involved in divorce situations beyond marriage counseling. It would be pretty presumptuous for anyone in leadership to cast judgment on someone in such a difficult predicament, it should really be between God and the couple. It’s impossible for someone else to truly understand and see what’s going on between a couple considering divorce.
When it comes to safety concerns for those living in domestically violent situations I believe God sees the circumstances and judges accordingly. I don’t necessarily have scripture to back this up, my apologies for that, it just seems that given the loving, gracious and caring attributes that are displayed throughout the Bible God wouldn’t turn His back on a helpless situation.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
It is sad to know that sometime the church marginalizing people based on what they feel fit. No one deserve to be marginalized in the church, no one should be rejected to find God’s grace. My boyfriend is reluctant to go to church because he thinks that the church tend to make it hard for people to find GOD & set so many regulations to be a perfect “Christians” per se which I think just to get approval from other people regarding our spirituality.
Honestly, I decided long time ago that I will not let anyone judge my spirituality. I don’t care how pastors or church leaders regard my spirituality, what I know I hope I’m becoming a better person every day, and living my life reflecting God as he always been, compassionate and merciful God.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Dear BT Beauty:
My heart weeps for you and your situation. But, I wish to offer you hope thru this little example.
This wonderful godly woman in her nieve youth married this man with whom she bore and raised four children. After thirty years of marriage her husband took up with some fluzzy from the church they attended together for twenty years os so. Ms fluzzy was a friend (?) of the woman and often sat by her in church. The following divorce totally devastated the woman. But, because of her strong faith in God and her continuing service to God and her church she never lost hope that she was still in His hands.
About ten years passed. God is now restoring her to her happiness. She will soon wed a pastor and missionary. Together they plan to continue their lives together as pastors and missionaries. This is the life she deserves and fulfills her in heart and spirit. What a wonderful finnish to what was once an awful time in her life. She never gave up hope or her faith that God would provide her with the needs in life. Today, she is a very happy person. She never gave up hope!!!!
I offer this that you may find some strength and hope in this short story.
God loves you too, as He loves her . He showed her. He will show you.
Stay in there. Don’t give up!
God bless you.
The husband who divorced her for that fluzzy now lies in his bed most of every day slowing dying and wasting away. Guess what! She gets to nurse him
August 10th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Thank you for your kind words and stories. As for moving to Seattle, that’s where my ex is moving to from Florida. He doesn’t know where we are. So that’s out for now, thank you!
I’m not saying anything bad about City Church. I’ve never been there. I did, however, grow up with Judah and Wendy. They didn’t share their stuff (like toys) and were pretty spoiled. So I’m going on past experiences.
I do know B.T. and do hold them responsible for the way they’ve treated people over the years.
Divorce holds a stigma with most Christians that continues today. I think it is no greater sin than any other. We, as a Christian body, must separate the action from the person. We, as a Christian body, need to deal with each case individually in divorce and not judge just based on the word “divorced” itself.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Independant Thinker Said:
“Honestly,…dada…….dada….dada.” I am so in agreement with your stance and thinking here. Your thoughts are a reflection of my own heart in regards to what people think. Sometimes I get so frustrated with the behavior churches and some pastors. I frequently have to take time with my Lord and ask Him what I am supposed to think and what am I supposed to do. I ask Him to please help me understand. It is too difficult to accept all preachers say.
I have been an indepentent thinker all of my life. Not always appreciated by church leadership. But I think it is a gift from God and Keeps me strong
when needed in the face of so much confusion.
And back to you. Stay strong!!
August 10th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
Pleasedreader,
glad to know that I am not alone!
Thanks,
IT
August 10th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
With all due respect, nothing ’causes’ us to sin. How cruel God would be to punish us for sin that was really somebody else’s fault. Sheesh….
Malachi 2:16
…the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence…
Personally, I know that if I were not a Christian I would have left my sometimes ‘miserable marriage’. But no matter how badly my husband treats me, Jesus suffered more. Not that he treats me terribly–he’s a selfish man, just like I am a selfish woman, and quite often our mutual selfishness causes strain and pain. That is unfortunate, but knowing how God feels about divorce, I choose not to take the easy way out of the sometimes difficult and challenging covenant I made in front of several hundred witnesses almost 20 years ago.
Besides, how can we learn long suffering (which, by the way, means “to suffer for a loooooong time”
) if we are never challenged over a period of time such as a life-long marriage? How can we learn to love the unlovely if we are not faced with such a person regularly? How can we learn peace if we are not faced with having our feathers ruffled? How can we learn to be self-controlled if we get our own way all the time? “Course, our spouses never have to put up with us….*wink*
No fifty year marriage milestone I have ever witnessed has ever said that it has been fifty uninterrupted years of marital bliss. Every marriage struggles through some pretty vigorous challenges, and if it is stuck through, instead of abandoned, there are rewards that can never be found in successive spousal replacements. Oh I know, “my marriage is the exception”–I don’t know, I think when we stand before God, our feeble excuses will be revealed for just that, pathetic attempts to justify our disobedience to God’s will.
When it comes to abuse, physical abuse, if a husband were to smack his boss, or slug a co-worker, or assault any other person, he would go to jail. It is illegal to accost another person violently. My husband knows without a shadow of a doubt that if he ever hit me, he would go to jail and I would pursue any and all charges available. I grew up in an abusive home–physical, verbal, sexual…I didn’t have a choice when I was a helpless child…I do now.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
BT Beauty - I so much understand feeling like giving up. Part of the God Promise fed to us from the pulpit is the happy ever after fairy tale. I have concluded God never promises the white picket fence, he just promises to be with us while we live in the crap.
Please contact CamasFriends@CamasFriends.org which is the Friends Church (Quaker) in Camas WA. If there is a woman pastor still there (the first name Caryl), tell her your story. You will find a kindred spirit and someone that knows what you are going through. Trust me, she will understand.
I do not go to that church, nor have kept in touch with that woman. (hope she is still there) We simply crossed paths briefly when she was transitioning to that church and my faith is God was renewed by our brief encounter. If you hear her story you will understand what I am talking about.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE…
DO NOT GIVE UP! DO NOT GO BACK TO THE ABUSE! YOU DESERVE TO KNOW REAL LOVE.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
To Was There Witnessed That…
I understand your attempt to give BT Beauty hope, however, I sincerely feel
your story of the now happy women marrying a pastor/missionary, is misguided. It supports the incorrect message that a woman’s happiness and success is directly connected to “Marriage”. It makes singles or unhappy married people feel that God doesn’t love them as much as the happy married people.
I don’t want to negate that one persons happy life, I just want to say “bunk” to the connection that happiness equals marriage or that God’s final sign of blessing is marriage.
When we find ourselves in the muck and choked with loneliness, it’s not time to dream about “some day my prince will come”! It is time to face who we are alone, learning to depend on God alone. It’s time to find the diamond inside ourself, the strength of God in us, we have no idea is there.
A divorced, abused woman with children needs to know God’s ultimate blessing is for her to find the strength to make it through the day and still delight in her children. The blessing she will see from God is her ability to buy groceries and pay the rent based on her own accomplishments, not due to the “man” that she marries. The goal she should be looking forward to is evidence that her children are emotionally healthy, stable adults.
To look for marriage as the answer and proof of God’s love causes the view of present day life to be blurred.
Please help me stop the myth that marriage is the ultimate reward from God!
Statistics prove there are just as many divorced Christians as non-christians. Didn’t all those divorced christians think on their wedding day they found god’s answer to prayer and proof of His love?
August 11th, 2007 at 3:28 am
Well, I think WasThereWitnessedThat was merely trying to show BT Beauty one example of hope…
I didn’t read where WTWT specifically said this exact same thing was what she needed, or that marriage equals happiness. Just that their previous marital situation was very similar.
Still though, since she has been so miserably failed by some of the most important men in her life, I think she might perhaps find that meeting a good man some day, through whom God can use (in one way) to manifest His love to her, to be the start of a wonderful post script to her sad story. And, it wouldn’t hurt her kids to find a godly dad, either.
BTB—
My heart also goes out to you…as has already been said here, please don’t give up. Your Father sees your situation and He WILL take care of you.
I know from personal experience that tremendous comfort can be found from reading the Scriptures, and allowing them to sink into my brain, and then into my spirit:
“9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for AT THE PROPER TIME WE WILL REAP A HARVEST if we do not give up.” (Galatians 6:9)
“26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. ARE YOU NOT MUCH MORE VALUABLE THAN THEY?” (Matthew 6:26)
Another thing I do, BTB, almost as a trick for my emotions, is that when I start to feel overwhelmed by life is to sing from the Psalms…it’s truly AMAZING how, in just a few minutes, my spirit is lifted and I find strength when I do this. Praising God and singing to Him really does help, in an almost magical way.
I’m not sure about what friends you might have in your life right at the moment, but I do know that there ARE people HERE who DO care about you and all the junk you have gone through.
I’m praying for you.
joebib
August 11th, 2007 at 8:05 am
Oh really? Thanks for that, I had no idea. Of course that’s the same term Jesus used in Matt 5:29…but thanks for nitpicking.
I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic or not here…I’d like to think so, but just don’t know with you Hungry…If you aren’t being sarcastic then I feel very sorry for you…I don’t think God created marriage so that we can understand “long suffering”, but whatever gets you through the day, I suppose.
To clarify my “opinion” for you, all I am saying is that I’ve seen plenty of people live in misery (as it sounds like you do now) because they don’t want to get divorced…they reach a point in their lives where they quit working on their marriage and decided to just co-exist because “that’s the Christian way to do things”.
But, as we have seen here in Matthew, Jesus clearly gets to the heart and is not as worried about appearances. Let me try to offer my opinion again in a slightly different way.
You have heard it said that “God hates divorce” but I tell you that anyone who quits working on their marriage has committed divorce in their hearts already.
August 11th, 2007 at 8:31 am
Dear Jobib:
Thank you for your response to the previous commentaries. You said it far more elequently than I could have.
Yes, my purpose was to show that there is hope, to someone who needed hope, by that example, thru Christ in the darkest of life’s situations.
Another short story of hope: ( oh, no! )
As a kid and young adult I grew up in the worst possible conditions which included absolute poverty with a drunken, abusive, wife beating parent. Every day was frigtening when ever he was home. His absence brought peace and relief.
But in all of this we had an Ace, that is a God loving, praying, mother. In all the circumstance in that home, she always prayed for a better life for her children. Thru her faith we were given hope, someday things will be better.
Most of us are aware of that precious old movie, “The Wizard Of Oz”. It’s theme song, “Some Where Over The Rainbow” was always a favorite song to sing in troubled times. As a troubled teen, that song became my theme song and gave me hope. One day I came to the end of myself. I declared, “Some Where Over The Rainbow” there is a better way of life and I’m going to find it!!
At mid-teen years, with a small amount of “borrowed” money I was hitch hiking to where ever. Didn’t really matter. Anything else would be better.
But along the way, God made a path to follow. Along the way I made some very wrong choices and many difficulties had to be faced. But I still had that same “Ace” as before,and God answered. Inspite of my dicisions, God kept me. By His mercy and grace he continues to gude my way.
Today, following God’s ways and keeping him at the center of life, I have a good life. This includes a marriage to a most wonderful wife and two adult children. End of story? No! Still a long way off.
The point of all this is to offer hope to all who trust in God. No matter what your circumstances are, thru Him, they will become better.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:53 am
I’m in agreement with Pope. I, too, was wondering at first if HOTH’s remarks weren’t sarcastic. Having re-read her comments a coupla times, I think she was being serious.
I think your hermeneutic, HOTH, is a bit jaded. I seriously don’t wish to offend, but I do feel for someone who views marriage as something the Lord created in order to help us learn the meaning of “miserableness,” “selfishness,” “difficulty,” or any of the other negative ways you describe your marriage.
In fact, He did it for just the opposite reason — see Genesis 2:18-25.
Paul teaches us that marriage is intended to mirror the mutual agape-love between Christ and His Church (see Ephesians 5:22-32). Not the world’s love, which is based solely on fickle emotions, chemical attraction, or fleeting good looks, but rather a love based on the decision, and the will, to seek the best good for someone else.
joe-b
August 11th, 2007 at 9:58 am
James 1:14-15
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
The whole point of Jesus’ sermon is not to mutilate ourselves, but to examine our HEARTS, as out of our hearts spring the issues of life…no amount of external constraint-whether it’s the law, or self mutilation, or threat of hell an change the “HEART” of a person, our behavior reflects what we really are in our heart…like the rebellious toddler being forced to sit down who says, “I may be sitting on the outside, but I’m standing on the inside!!”
I’m fairly certain we are on the same page here, it’s just a little wrinkled.
Much of the rest of your comment displays the ‘entitlement’ mentality that has so confused much of Christianity today. We really seem to think that we have the ‘right’ to live our lives free from any difficulties, stress, pain, etc….
What DOES God say to do with a difficult spouse?
(1 Corinthians 7:10-16)
Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
Wow. It seems like God cares more for the salvation of our unbelieving spouse than He does for our comfort…unless our lives are at stake? Duhh!
)
Take note of the ‘buts’ in the previous section. God always holds up an ideal, or His will, yet seems to make an allowance, knowing what stiffnecked and rebellious people He is dealing with. (As when Jesus told the pharisees Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of your heart, but in the beginning this was not so)
I doubt there is a family in this generation who has not been touched by divorce–whether their parents, grandparents, siblings, or themselves. So, just because it is so common, we should just accept it and promote it and pursue it whenever our mate is mean to us? I’m sorry, but I will not. I am just simple minded enough to believe in the ideals of God’s word.
Have you read the story of Abigail? She herself called Naban a scoundrel and a Son of Satan…gee…I wonder if he was just mean to everybody else, or did she possibly suffer a bit as well? It makes for an interesting read (1 Samuel 25) how God eventually rewards her for her character.
Romans 8:18
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Heaven forbid we should have to suffer any in this present time…
August 11th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Don’t worry, you wouldn’t offend, I can agree to disagree amiably. And, I am not describing my marriage with those words, either. I have a pretty good marriage, although it’s not perfect, since it is the union of two flawed people whom God is still working on. I am also perfectly aware of the reason for marriage. You forgot Song of Solomom in your example…A beautiful analogy of the love of God for His bride…if you interpret it that way…:o)
However, if every marriage were ‘made in heaven’, how do YOU explain the number of divorces? Surely you are not so naive as to think that in every single case of divorce in the last century the very life of somebody was at stake? That without fail, every individual divorce was due to a drunk or an alcoholic spouse sending his/her mate to the hospital for reconstructive surgery? Or that only adulterers get divorces? I’m certain you know better than that…Hmmm….that thought is very similar to the arguement that has caused millions of babies to be killed in this country–”the life of the mother may be at stake”….they’re right I suppose, it would be a shame to have to sacrifice for any life other than your own…
Could it be that God holds marriage up as an unbreakable covenant so that if we are unfortunately enough to get a ‘bad one’ we could know that He can empathize because His Bride has been adulterous to Him? That He understands our pain as He yearns jealously for our love and we willfully and rebelliously walk our own way? Or, so we could know that we walk in His shoes with our efforts to love someone who rejects us?….just a thought…
Hebrews 4:14-16
Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
August 11th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Dear Hungry,
I hope your life starts to improve soon. No one needs to be as miserable as you are.
-RP
August 11th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Dear RP,
Misery is a choice. I do not choose it.
I hope your vision improves soon, it makes getting through life’s difficulties and hardships alot easier…and does not leave a bitter aftertaste….*chuckle*
HOTH
August 11th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
ok
August 12th, 2007 at 12:05 am
(Hungry on the Harbor said: “…You forgot Song of Solomom in your example…A beautiful analogy of the love of God for His bride…if you interpret it that way…:o) “)
Good point, and yes, I do interpret it that way. You have several good thoughts in your post, and I think we are seeing things from essentially the same position.
I also think you make some valid points in your reply to RP about the bottom line which God wants for all of our lives, and I appreciate your belief in holding to a higher standard concerning the plethora of divorces in our day — the great number of which much surely grieve the Lord.
HOTH, I’m glad you’re marriage isn’t as miserable as it seemed (to me) you were implying it was in your previous post.
Didn’t mean to jump to a wrong conclusion.
-joebib
August 12th, 2007 at 6:21 am
I have noticed that we tend to approach biblical passages from our modern points of view. As such, when we read Matthew 5, are we reading the Bible with our own marital presuppositions in mind?
Has anyone really studied what the original context was for this passage? What was marriage like then? Were men and women equals, or were women still considered men’s property? How many marriage partners could one have either at a time or sequentially? What was Jesus saying in that context? Was he speaking in a Jewish context or a Roman context?
Then we need to analyze marriage in our own context. It is a civil right, a religious rite, or both? Our institution is usually based on equals, but Jesus seems to presuppose that marriage is not. Is this prescriptive of all marriages, or simply descriptive of marriages in his historical context?
Finally, how to the two contexts — ancient and modern — relate to each other? What do we take from one context and apply to the other?
I’m not asking these questions to be difficult. I’ve been told in sermon after sermon that divorce is bad, but usually that conclusion seems to be based on a cursory reading of the Bible. I’d just like to see someone address this topic or these types of questions in a more in-depth manner. Any thoughts?
August 12th, 2007 at 8:05 am
Go for it.
August 12th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Dave Mackin - I notice you have not commented on this subject. I am curious about your Biblical view on divorce as it relates to practical everyday life in 2007.
August 12th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I’ve heard that the definition of an expert is; “somebody who takes something simple and makes it difficult“…..:o)
Fortunately for me, I did not grow up in the church, so I don’t feel the need to have every scripture verse scrutinized, I just read it, believe it, and trust that God wants even the most spiritually illerate person to ‘get it’. He hates divorce. It doesn’t matter who or how many have done it before, He hates it. He has held up a clear ideal, in several places in scripture, it’s up to us to obey, even when it is hard.
Besides, Whom should we be seeking to learn these ‘difficult concepts’ from?
)
Psalm 25:4
Show me Your ways, O LORD;Teach me Your paths.
Psalm 25:5
Lead me in Your truth and teach me,For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day.
Psalm 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD;Therefore He teaches sinners in the way.
Psalm 25:9
The humble He guides in justice,And the humble He teaches His way.
Psalm 25:12
Who is the man that fears the LORD?Him shall He teach in the way He chooses.
Psalm 27:11
Teach me Your way, O LORD,And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
……….and the list goes on……:o)
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
The problem seems to be, I don’t think we really want to know the truth, since if it was a snake it would bite us square on the nose….
‘course, that’s just my jaded two cents…*wink*
August 12th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
That’s wierd, she gets to nurse him? Sounds dysfunctional to me. I understand we need to turn the other cheek but he’s her x and he committed adultry. Why the heck is she nursing him? I would say she needs to pray for him and ask God to forgive him for his trespasses and ask that he might be turned back to God but to nurse him.? That doesn’t sound right to me.
August 12th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Hungry, I understand your heart desires to do the right thing. You think this will bring you closer to God. You are putting so much emphasis on being good and doing whatever is right no matter the cost. I caution, from experience, your approach to Bible is dangerous. It is binding and constricting. It is somewhat like the way the young men who flew the planes into the world trade center use the Koran. If we literally take scripture to apply it in this way, then we will be poking out our eye when we see a bill board while driving down the street.
August 12th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Was There Witnessed That … did you mean the fluzzy got to nurse him??? or his ex?
August 12th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
That’s right. And if you are the only one working on the marriage and the other is not willing…you are abosolutely right, just to coexisit together is wrong. We are not to just coexisit but to adhere (cleave).
I think leaving is more than just packing your bags and heading out the door. The kind of attitude that says me, me, me needs to be addressed. Sometimes that kind of pressure (the address) is too much for the “its all about me” person and they start acting out. And if the unbeliever leaves Paul says let him leave we are not under bondage in such cases.
I was just talking to a person who’s spouse constantly used manipulation in the marriage by saying things like, “I’m going to leave”, “your not my soul mate”, “I’m going to go find my soul mate”. One day they said “I’m going to leave” and the other spouse said OK, I release you, go. The manipulative spouse was stunned. They frantically drove to the persons work and said, I’m leaving, I’m going to go live with my parents in such and such state. They said, OK go, I think you need to go. Sad, sad, sad. Now they are trying to tell the person they are causing the children to suffer because they won’t reconcile.
I really believe if everything they were telling me were true, they were under no bondage to stay in such a marriage. Mind you they were married for ten years, their roles were a mess. The one spouse simply released the other person.
August 12th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
We do need to break the scriptures down, research and put things in their historical settings. Greek can have several different meanings as does English, however Greek and Hebrew tend to have more. Scripture can be eaisly misintrepreted if not researched. I agree with tireasis we need to do a little more digging… ourselves. It is our responsibility and yes the HS will enlighten us HOTH I totally agree with you on that.
However I do not beleive in being a “layman” (someone who lays by a lake). I perfer to dig, the word really can come to life when you do a little more. It keeps you safe from false doctrines and from following man made doctrines.
August 12th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
OK I get it now…I misunderstood. I thought the ex was nursing the ex. But now the fluzzy gets to nurse the ex. Got it.
August 13th, 2007 at 11:30 am
I have read every post here. I find this an extremely interesting subject. Though I have not commented further, I thank all of you who have tried to encourage and uplift me.
I thought if I served God all my life that I would be blessed with a heavenly marriage. I think it is very misleading of the church to promise things from God (to naive people who want to believe)that can’t be guaranteed.
I believe Christians in general have been the biggest contributor to causing divorce. That is why divorce among Christians is so high. By misleading people into thinking that if they follow God everything will be okay, we have perpetuated the very problem we have been trying so hard to avoid.
August 13th, 2007 at 11:52 am
BT Beauty “By misleading people into thinking that if they follow God everything will be okay, we have perpetuated the very problem we have been trying so hard to avoid. ”
I AGREE 100% !!!! THE PULPIT IS PROMISING “THE AMERICAN DREAM” AS IF IT WERE GOD’S PROMISE. NOT JUST WITH FINANCES, BUT WITH THE WHOLE PACKAGE, BEAUTIFUL FAMILY, PERFECT KIDS, TOTAL HEALTH. WHEN LIFE TURNS OUT TO BE DIFFICULT WE BLAME OURSELVES OR GOD. THAT MESSAGE IS IN THE BACKGROUND OF PEOPLE’S MINDS WHEN THEY SEE OTHERS GOING THROUGH HARD TIMES TOO, BY WAY OF FEELING PROTECTED, “THEY MUST HAVE BROUGHT IT ON THEMSELVES’.
GOD PROMISES TO BE WITH ME THROUGH WHATEVER, BLESSING OR TROUBLES. THAT IS THE ONLY PROMISE I CLING TO ANYMORE.
August 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
So I know this makes me the most ridiculous (and possibly annoying) person but I just can’t seem to keep myself from saying this:
“fluzzy” is not a correct spelling option for the word floozy. Here are three options that are:
floosie, floosy, floozie
Those are all linguistically acceptable — fluzzy is not.
Aaaaaaagh–I hate myself for this too!
August 13th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
ll Be Quoted Here
The fluzzy won this prize. The ex, has now moved on and lives a happy life.
August 13th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
O.K.
Thanks for correcting my misguided grammer. This is gettihg more difficult than expected. I will try to make more clear. So get ready.
The floosie or floosy or floosie, but not fluzzy, that stole away the male-ex(the bad ex) from the female ex(the good ex) is in the dubious position of having to nurse the male ex at the end of his days. The female ex has now moved on and has a happy life. Now do you have it?
WOW!! This makes me realize just how bad I need to get a real life.
August 13th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
WTWT means that the woman has to nurse, as in take care, of the old geezer. Duh. Some people are such morons.
August 13th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Fluzzy means
(1) “Sleeping when you have the flu” as in I don’t feel so well so need to catch a few z’s
(2) “what someone with a speach problem calls a person named Susie.” as in Fammy’s aunt Fuzzy is visiting her Fister.
August 13th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Yeah, this is fun for me.
I am a nerd.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:05 am
ginning
How funny. In a sarcastic pose at correcting yourself, you apologized for your “grammer” (instead of your grammar). You also left words out of the post, making your point less, not more clear. I got your point from the beginning (no need to get into Annoyed’s style of saying DUH and calling people ’such morons’ on what I presumed to be a site for Christians). I’m merely pointing out the danger of rude sarcasm for a really humble and apologetic correction. There are so many tools for avoiding such embarrassing mistakes anyway– especially if one wishes to get ugly without looking foolish.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:15 am
Hey all -
Well, I haven’t been able to read all the comments on this post, because I think my contacts would suck all the life out of my eyes if I tried. So if someone has already said this…
There is a lot of talk about the context in which divorce is discussed, the language, and the setting. Well, my husband and I were dangerously close to divorce two years ago - I had moved into an apartment and we both were just ready to move on. One night I sat down and cried to God, and asked Him to show me what I was supposed to do. Well, I felt very convicted, and I opened my Bible and read passages about marriage and divorce. Here is my conclusion, which lead to my marriage reconciliation and subsequent parting with the WOF church we were attending that had played an integral part in drawing us apart:
Marriage is a symbol. It is a symbol of union between God and His church, between Christ and His Bridegroom. It’s true - there are biblical grounds for divorce - but ultimately, if both people in the marriage are believers, they voluntarily entered into a covenant with God to be a symbol of Him and His church. That is why God hates divorce - because He would never divorce His church. Marriage is a symbol of God’s devotion to His people.
It took every ounce of energy that I had left in my soul to reconcile with my husband - after reading my Bible, I knew that if I loved God and truly believed in Him, that I would be obedient to fulfill the covenant that I entered into. I had to believe that if I was faithful to Him, He would restore my brokenness. At the time, I did not reconcile with my husband because I wanted to be with him again - it was because I knew that the symbol we represented was too important to throw away. God is faithful and loving to His people. Being obedient to God is more important than the justification for divorce that the world shoves down my throat. It’s not about me - it’s about Him. He is what makes me whole - not my husband. My marriage would not work until I took my husband off of the pedestal that is reserved only for my God.
I was not a victim of domestic violence, adultery, or abuse - those situations are unique in their treatment. I had a selfish heart, which is no reason for divorce - and is usually the #1 reason most divorces happen.
Two years later…my marriage is not perfect, and it never will be, because I am not perfect and neither is my husband. But it’s purpose remains the same…it is symbolic, and it is a covenant. I would encourage anyone considering divorce to seek wise counsel from couples who have been married for many years - and to read the Bible - the answers are pretty clear.
Ok, I’m done. Great discussion - I love this blog.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Has anyone listened to Joseph Web’s sermons on Divorce and Remarriage? They are very good. A mp3 download can be found herehere.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:25 am
Duh ! I feel like such an uneducated twit (sp)
August 14th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Everyone should just forget it. I am sorry to have caused more confusion and annoyance with my neurotic obsession with fluzzy (seriously though, it’s like fuzzy with an l thrown in–and that is a silly sounding non-word). But now that I say it over and over to myself, it is growing on me.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Excellent post, Kara, thanks for sharing….:o)
Your obedience WILL be blessed, as God desires it far above our shallow religious sacrifices…
August 14th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
BT/CBC– not allowing divorcees to be elders.. Ron Smith…
Then there is Jerry McKinney.. he was divorced.. They had this policy that a person could not have more than “1 attendant” at their wedding if there was divorce.. yet he married Gini Smith’s sister and Tami had the line up of attendants and junior attendants and whatever else to make up her own army…. double standard now, double standard back then.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Through the hard times of marriage isn’t it more meaningful to stay together to work it out if you know you can leave? It seems the feeling of being “stuck”, would bring on depression or worse, “numbing out” would prevail so much more for people with the view that God would hate them if they feel unable to fulfill a role or expectation?
August 14th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Not if your “spouse” is beating the snot out of you. Time to grow hairs on your chest and LEAVE.. don’t walk, RUN.. and call the police on the way.
August 15th, 2007 at 7:00 am
Divorce is one of the most devistating things that happens in our society. According to our scriptural teachings God does hate divorce. So call it sin if you will. Even so, it is not an unforgivable sin! Remember,our God is full of grace and mercy to forgive. There is no need for anyone to go through life filled with guilt and self persecution because of it.
I have cause to ponder.
Is it really the act of divorce or the breaking of the sacred vows taken before God resulting in divorces that greives Him most? Are broken vows the real sin? If there is guilt, is it properly placed?
August 15th, 2007 at 9:26 am
I’m not trying to troll by bringing up a different topic, but this is one of my major issues with churches. They say god hates gay relationships, and the bible says god hates divorce,
So if gay people should have to try to live in straight relationships, then shouldn’t christian couples have to stay married even when they don’t want to be together any more? But does that happen?
The last church I was at, the pastor was divorced and after 10 years of preaching got married to someone in the church.
During one of his many political sermons he gave against gay marriage, the topic of born-that-way-into-sin vs. lifestyle choice inevitably surfaced. He said if people are truly born gay, then (like an alcoholic) they should just “quiet the longing of their flesh”.
But honestly, shouldn’t he have to as well? Shouldn’t he have to go back to his first non-christian wife and quiet the longing his own flesh? Which makes me wonder: what would a church do with a christian pastor married to a non-christian wife?
August 15th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
When a man and woman come together in marriage and make a covenant vow before God, God acknowledges their vow and makes them one (sex does not make them one, otherwise fornication would not exist). If the couple decides to divorce and remarry another, Jesus said this is adultery (Mt. 5:32; Luke 16:18). In God’s eye, it is adultery because they are fornicating outside of their covenant vows. The couple cannot annul a covenant vow made before God, they can only violate it. (Job 22:27; Jer. 44:25; Ecc. 5:1-7)
If someone divorces their spouse, they should first seek reconciliation when possible. If they cannot be reconciled, they should remain single and NOT remarry. (1 Cor. 7:10-11). They are bound to this as long as their first spouse lives (Rom. 7:3).
The real concern is for those who do remarry. I believe this is a salvation issue, because God said in his word in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, that adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. A disciple of Christ cannot remain in their sin and think they are serving the most high. Remember the parable of plucking out your eye if it causes you to sin. It’s better for you to loose one member of your body than to be thrown into hell. If someone remains in their sin, Jesus will say to them “I never knew you”, because they worked lawlessness (or refused to do what God said to do). It doesn’t matter if they are a minister or a lay person; you cannot excuse your sin with “service to God” and think you will inherit eternal life. It’s only when someone leaves an adulterous relationship is when God’s forgiveness comes.
Many will balk at this teaching for a number of reasons and excuses:
1. “God knows my heart.” “A man’s own folly ruins his life, yet his heart rages against the Lord.” (Pr 19:3)
2. “I’m burning in lust, and it’s better for me to remarry.” The scripture referenced is 1 Co. 1-9, and it is being used out of context. It is addressing single couples, not divorced couples.
3. “God wants me to be happy, so I need to be remarried.” No, God would rather you be in hardship with obedience, than comfort with continual sin.
4. “I can remarry because Jesus will forgive my sins.” Jesus will forgive those who turn from their sins, and not remain in them. You can only repent from adultery, when you confess your sin and leave the relationship. Can a homosexual couple repent while still maintaining their lifestyle with each other? No. What if they are joined in a “civil union”?
5. “I’ve started a new family, so I cannot leave.” This is difficult position to be in, but listen to Dr. Joseph’s Webb sermon listed on my previous post. (response too long)
6. “Everyone I know will condemn my decision to leave my current family.” Jesus said following him may divide the family (Mt. 10:34:39)
7. “Divorce is so common, it cannot be that bad.” “Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Mt. 7:13). Does God change his word based upon societal norms?
8. “My kids and I have been abused, so I need a divorce.” It’s unfortunate if abuse comes into play, but it doesn’t give you grounds to remarry. You should separate for the sake of you and your family, but pray that the partner will be reconciled.
9. “My pastor is divorced, and he’s a man of God.” Jesus said that not everyone who serves him is his disciple. See Mt. 7:21-23. Also, pastors who remarry divorces couples are part of the problem at hand.
10. “God is after love, not something that would harm a family.” Love is interceding for those who walk astray. What is worse, 2 people going to hell forever, or a family breaking up under biblical conviction?
11. “What if my spouse cheated on me?”. Again, listen to Dr. Joseph’s Webb sermon listed on my previous post. It will cover the Matthew exception clause (response too long.
-Kevin
August 15th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
You were on a pretty good roll until this comment…When Jesus was talking to the woman at the well, and He told her to go and get her husband, she told Him that she didn’t have one. He agreed, and then said that she had in fact had FIVE husbands. (John 4:17-19)
If the Lord acknowledged that she could have five husbands, then at whatever point He had met her along the way littered with husbands, He would not have told her to leave her latest husband. A marriage is a covenant, and after one covenant is broken, and you make another, you are still sinning to break the new covenant. That’s why in the old testament, where it is talking about marriage and divorce, it says that if a woman is divorced and remarries another, then is divorced from her next husband, or her second husband dies, her first husband is forbidden to remarry her, because it is an abomination.(Deuteronomy 24:1-4)
When we are forgiven from our sins, we start fresh with a new slate. If we are on our sixth marriage when this happens, we start from that point on, and do not divorce again. No place in scripture does it tell you to go back and ‘fix your sins’, on the contrary, we are to look forward and press on toward the upward calling of Jesus Christ our Lord.
August 16th, 2007 at 9:06 am
Hungry on the Harbor,
Please show me any scripture in the Bible where God will “forgive” your covenant vows.
Concerning Deuteronomy 24:1-4, this not a commandment from God, it is a commandment from Moses who “suffered you” because of your hard hearts. Please reread Matthew 5:27-32, Matthew 19:3-12, and Mark 10:1-12. In these scriptures, you will see Jesus tell the Pharisees that Moses wrote you these commandments, not God.