A lot has been said lately on this blog about angry pastors. Why are there so many angry pastors today? I believe that one of the main reasons why some of the pastors in MFI-type churches have problems with anger is because of their own leadership philosophy. As Thinking Right asked: “…or could it be it’s just a philosophy of leadership…?”
With their top-down, senior-pastor control, pastor-as-king approach to ministry, whenever a person gets in the way of helping them to accomplish their goals, pastor-kings naturally get angry. (Don’t all of us feel frustrated or even angry when others regularly upset our plans or goals?)
I have observed that pastor-kings are extremely goal-centered and task-oriented. They are much more project-driven than they are people-persons. One senior pastor (whose name I won’t mention) gets so upset at the people in his congregation sometimes that, according to one report, his own staff has to keep him away from the people as much as they can. Another senior pastor (whose name I won’t mention either) got so angry at one of his trustees for questioning his borrowing money from the bank for the church’s building project that the trustee told me that he saw a very different person look out at him at that moment of anger – one very different from the kind of man the congregation normally saw.
Generally speaking, pastor-servants do not have the tendency to get angry like pastor-kings because they have different ministry goals. Their goal is simply to love God's people and help to meet their spiritual needs. Pastor-kings, on the other hand, are driven by their ambitions. Their inner goal is to capture, brainwash, manipulate and use as many people as possible; to get as many “giving units” "under" them so that they can fulfill their ministry dreams and visions. Whether they meet the people's spiritual needs is really secondary.
If anyone seriously doubts, esp. those close to or inside of the inner circle, or does not fit into "their vision" – which they falsely promote as "our vision" – they will simply put things into motion to make the doubter feel so uncomfortable that the doubter will leave the local church. In this way, pastor-kings try to eliminate their personal sources of anger rather than repenting of why they get so upset.
James says, "For man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires" (James 1:20, NIV). Paul says, “Love is….not self-seeking, [it is] not easily angered…” (I Corinthians 13:5, NIV). I find it interesting that Paul connects “self-seeking” with being “easily angered.”
What other run-ins have you (or others) had with pastors getting really angry? Why do you think that they got so upset? How did their anger make you feel?
Since the SP position is ‘spiritual’ wherein the SP is supposed to be anointed, mouthpiece of God, working by faith and the spirit, I imagine they expect to be surrounded by people who believe in, support and encourage the pastor’s vision. Wouldn’t be surprised if the based that somewhat on the scripture which says Jesus went into a town, but could do no miracles there, due to unfaith.
So perhaps the anger is in fact a kind of blaming – when the SP can’t get it done, surely it is not the SP’s fault, rather, it is the fault of the unbelievers who have robbed him of the power/anointing to do the job. So, the unbeliever, being in the way of the work of the spirit the SP has set out to do, is met with all the wrath reserved for the devil in spiritual warfare. Lord knows I’ve seen a few outbursts from Paul Crouch on TBN for those who have dared disagree with him!
…
Dave I worked with one such pastor with an anger/control issue for a couple years – in one meeting of the worship committee on which I was a candidate for membership/chairperson, we were talking to this stanch traditional pastor about the youth who wanted something more contemporary. He was ashen, and said he did not care about what the youth wanted, that they could just learn to love tradition like everyone else. As we were talking, I sat opposite him and kept an eye on him as he was literally becoming red, clenching his teeth, and panting in a great effort to keep it under control …
As I watched him, the Lord gave me a brief vision used to teach me – in the vision, I saw the pastor hunkered down in a foxhole surrounded by sandbags – only the very top of his green helmet could be seen. Suddenly he jumped up and sprayed machine-gun fire over the heads of everyone, then just as suddenly dove back into his foxhole.
And I thought to myself “it’s gonna take a grenade to get him outta there”.
Suffice it to say it was that barely concealed seething anger of his that caused me to withdraw my name from consideration for worship committee chairperson.
The other part to the story is, a day or 2 later he called me into the office and told me that my nomination for the worship chair, made by the church president, would not be a unanimous vote because I was “contemporary” and the church was more “traditional”. The pastor, who was best buds with the elections officer, must have pulled some strings because the official nomination never did come through. So I figure the pastor torpedoed that, and in doing so undermined the church president.
…
I’ve shared before that I went to a non/anti-charismatic church all my life. It was there I received the baptism with the holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, which I shared with much joy with my pastor. Thereafter, I got up to speak at the podium and the pastor stood behind me, unlike anyone else who had ever spoken from the podium; I always wondered if he was afraid that I might speak in tongues so he moved into position to remove me if needed. It was weird and oppressive. We talked often before my baptism, afterwards his countenance towards me changed and he scarcely said more than ‘hello’ to me after that.
I think they’re just trying to rule by their own might, with an overinflated view of their own spirituality and authority.
“And I thought to myself ‘it’s gonna take a grenade to get him outta there.’ ”
Thanks, Sam… you made me LOL
joe-b
Pastorus Rex??????????????//////
[Comment ID #28070 Will Be Quoted Here]
Kind of sounded like a club.
Samaritan said: As we were talking, I sat opposite him and kept an eye on him as he was literally becoming red, clenching his teeth, and panting in a great effort to keep it under control … Sam: Thanks for sharing your experience. Your above description makes me think of how pastors know that the Scripture condemn "outbursts of anger" so they try as hard as they can to control their emotions so as to set a "good example" for the flock. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work. Sad about the kids. It sounds like this guy was out of touch and knew that his salary came from pleasing the adults that had not kids (an older aged church?) rather than the kids and the parents that had kids in the youth group. In my view, you hit the nail on the head when you connected control with anger: "anger/control" issues. When pastor-kings feel that they are losing control of things in the church, they get angry. The whole concept of seeing leaders as pastor-servants rather than pastor-kings has revolutionized my view of what it means to be a Christian leader.
Sounds like a former/future pastor that I know of.
ANNA— hows about if you do not copy entire posts.. kinda redundant and boring.. perhaps just pick out highlights or refer to previous post…. and a BEAR to scroll through
I think you hit the nail on the head, Dave.
Anna, I think what “living life” is saying is, that Samaritan is boring enough in 1 post, without doubling the boredom by quoting the whole message.
The behavior of the angry pastors sound like my Mom…. It’s all in the family… a dysfunctional one.
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Yeah I’ve thought abou that only I don’t know how to do it. Help me out.
anna—highlight the part you want to copy, alt-C, come down here, click the b-quote box, alt-v, click the b-quote box again, return. and type away
From a book I’m currently reading, “A self-righteous stand and a disdain for others seem to go hand in hand. A recognition of our faults, aids us to be forgiving of others.”
The Lord’s prayer instructs us, “And forgive us our debts as we also have forgiven our debtors.” (Matt. 6:12)
Sweeping ones faults under the rug to present a “zero defects” image will surely cause an absence of God’s presence in your life. No wonder there is so little demonstration of God’s power and presence in what passes for ‘church’ nowdays.
[Comment ID #28140 Will Be Quoted Here]
I agree.
Openness and honesty are in very short supply in most churches.
It is becoming clearer to me that today’s “prosperity gospel/megachurch”
is really a reflection of American corporate culture. The high riding CEO with the huge salary and bonus package has become the model of the pastor of our large churches. It has bothered me that the label of ‘pastor’ only occurs once in the whole of the bible…and that there is no job description listed. It has become the perfect vehicle to write ones own job description, along with a huge salary and benefits package that come at the expense of all who work for you.
Today, the business CEO who can evade the responsibility of paying retirement benefits to thousands of former employees is thought of as a financial genius. Since our political process has been purchased by our corporate giants, the congress has given them the means to do so.
How different is that to constantly preaching that tithing will ensure financial success, only to find at the end that a few at the top have made off with the goods?
Instead of being a reflection of God’s Kingdom here on earth, our churches are a reflection of the upper end of our society.
In 1 Samuel chapter 8, there is a description of what happened when Israel wanted a king to judge them. When Samuel was displeased about it and prayed to the Lord, the Lord said to Samuel, “they have rejected Me from being king over them.”
Piercing insights, WHS. And true.
-joe
It seems like there is a lot of anger here and not forgiveness. col3:7 but now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath,malice,blasphemy.filthy communication out of your mouth. To speak about the chosen of god is a sin. God will judge in the end if we but keep our hearts pure. We bring shame upon the house of god if the unsaved read this. Our thoughts should be pure and holy. I have read some of Remi and she seems to have found this inner peace. May god bless each and everyone of you.
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With pastors who have committed transgressions, I feel that restoring them to their former position is possible, but only if the following conditions are met:
1. A true confession of their misdeeds, including published disclosure about the misdeeds.
2. A true repentance of their misdeeds.
3. Apologies and restitution to those people who were injured by their misdeeds.
4. Professional counseling, not church counseling by people associated with the person being counselled.
5. A vote of confidence from a supermajority of the membership of the church, at least 80% required for re-instatement.
6. Re-instatement for a trial period not to exceed 6 months, followed by a re-evaluation.
7. An oversight committee to review everything that pastor does for the remainder of their term, with formal re-evaluation every year.
Given the strictness of the above criteria, most pastors who are used to running amok would never stand for such close scrutiny, so I doubt many would attempt re-instatement under such draconian provisions.
You might wish to review this:
(Matthew 5:21-26)
21 You have heard that the ancients were told, “You shall not commit murder†and “Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.†22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, “Raca,†shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, “You fool,†shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
23 If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.
25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, in order that your opponent may not deliver you to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you shall not come out of there, until you have paid up the last cent.
Frodo Said:
How interesting that you two agree, seeing as how you’re both the only people that spell god “G-d”.
isn’t that special?
Anyway… Carry on!
It is a shame some need to resort to verbal abuse and mockery when others do not agree with them. May gods peace be upon you.
[Comment ID #28352 Will Be Quoted Here]I think I do owe you a patient explanation of why I post here. A couple of the things you said put a ‘blip’ on my radar. Do you think John the baptist was out of line to call the Pharisees a “brood of vipers”? They thought of themselves as God’s chosen at the time.
You said that writing here brings shame on the “house of God”. I really don’t think God lives in a house..(see Acts 7:48) He lives in believers. As far as shame goes, what about behavior like that of Swaggart, Haggard, and Baker? Just who is it that has turned American Christianity into a spiritual version of the ‘weakest link’? Should we just let it go on without comment….like our Roman Catholic cousins did? It did not work out too well for them.
In the Old Testament, only a few people ever got to experience the Holy Spirit. Kings, Priests, Prophets, and Judges, and no one else. The time of the ‘annointing’ of a few is now past. In the New Testament, ALL have access to the Holy Spirit and the Father in Heaven. It is far past time to quit putting people on platforms and calling them pastor. It is each ones responsibility to develop a relationship with the Father of Lights through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. In Matt. 23:10, Jesus tells the disciples not to be called a ‘leader’. (NASB) We only need one leader, and we are all brothers and sisters.
Am I angry? I don’t think so. I am weary of ‘status quo’ Christianity. I’m tired of the disrespect shown the body of Christ. I’m excited to see a new day, where everyday people move in their giftings in the course of everyday life. You can try it! You don’t need permission.
[Comment ID #28356 Will Be Quoted Here]
Why are you so bitter and unforgiving? The S, H & B stories are old news they happend years ago why drag them them out again. We as Christians need to forgive.
Betty
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haha!
indeed, but isn’t it sad how truthfulness is a lost art with most chr-st-ans?
May G_d’s honesty and the forgiveness of the B=tty be upon you.
The story of Lucifer is also an old one. As a Christian, don’t you think it’s time you forgave him?
May I be so bold as to say;
Ephesians:4:31 Stop being mean, bad-tempered and angery. Quarreling, harsh words, and dislike of others should have no place in your lives. Instead, be kind to each other tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God has forgived you because you belong tp Christ.
May his love shine in your hearts today!
Betty
To Frodo and Betty and all of you others that seem to be stuck on this forgiveness doctrine. HOW CAN I MISS YOU IF YOU WON’T GO AWAY?!!!!!!
Cat and RP: Can we get an FAQ page or something about bitterness and forgiveness?
In the meantime, I propose that we adjust the Scriptures to reflect forgiveness:
Maybe we can change verse 5 to say, “And forgive such people and welcome them back into your lives and your church in positions of leadership.”
Ya think?
grace
[Comment ID #28363 Will Be Quoted Here]
I agree, except for the part about changing the scriptures. That is a dangerous thought.
Betty
Catalyst said:Anyway, the above comment is about the 500th comment this blog has received telling us we’re bitter. It doesn’t work anymore. They need to come up with something else.
They did. They call it unforgiveness. And it did work. It keep the clf thread off on rabbit trails and got it shut down because people are defenseless against it . The same way it dominates the outcomes of situations in our former churches. No matter how you chose to handle it (by “acting” contrite and trying to reason wiith them, or getting angry and telling them what you really think) it always ends up the same way. I believe this is an unbalanced if not false doctrine being used to control and manipulate the people of God and always ensuring “power over” for the people operating in it.
I was joking to make a point. Those who know me know that I reverence the word of God.
So what part are you agreeing with then?
Oh
Gosh honey, I’m so sorry. I guess that’s the problem none of us know each other. I agree with the scriptures 2Tim3: 1-5. Especially 4 & 5 Where it says= They will betray their Friends; they will be hot headed, puffed up with pride, and prefer good times to worshiping God. They will go to church, yes, but they won’t really believe anything they hear. Don’t be taken in be people like that.
What point are you trying to make?
Betty
The bible says we must suffer for christ. Even though we are mistreated by our leaders WE MUST be obedient even unto death.
OK. You’re whiners. You’re wimps. You’re ugly. You smell funny. Pick one.
Why, if any of you had any kajole’s, you’d kick the likes of Doug Cotton in his nether-region for doing that little ‘anger number’ on you. Surely there’s some alpha males at CLF … let the big dogs rough DC up a little and he’ll learn to check that anger crap. Do unto others’, right? It works both ways …
That anger and manipulation/control crap comes from the world, so, give him a response worthy of the world. Knock some sense into him.
[Comment ID #28372 Will Be Quoted Here]
It’s Kool-Aid drinkers like you who end up victims in tragedies like Waco, Texas. Imagine if a few devout and wise men had simply stood up to David Koresh and called him the nut that he was, hundreds of lives could have been saved.
God save us all from such complacency!
Overall, I’m still amazed and perplexed at how so many Christians who are willing to gloss over blatant abuses of power within the church to achieve a false sense of unity. It makes me truly ill.
Thanks, Betty. You’re right, we don’t know each other. But I’ve gotten to know some people a little better through this blog.
I was trying to say that when people — especially leaders — are continually (longterm) exhibiting nonChrist-like behavior (like the description in 2Tim, the Word of God tells us to turn away from them.
We can forgive them until the cows come home, but we are not to put them back into positions of authority over God’s children.
….. and frodo: “obedient even unto death” to the leaders? I thought that loyalty is for God and Him alone. (That phrase is a quote from Hebrews about Jesus, who was obedient to His Father.)
Reforming heathen I being the least amongst you have forgiven satan. If i have forgiven surely you could too. I must prepare for a lecture i am giving this weekend talk with you later.
[Comment ID #28360 Will Be Quoted Here]
Read this:
1 Corinthians 5:11 (New International Version)
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
People who have never apologized for their actions are not going to be at my table.
[Comment ID #28377 Will Be Quoted Here]
How very noble! Too bad God isn’t as forgiving as you are. He plans to throw Satan and all his followers into a burning lake of fire. Maybe you should talk to God and remind Him about how we’re supposed to forgive everyone. I’m sure you could convince Him since you’re “the least”.
I’m all for forgiving repentant people, but abusive pastors who refuse to acknowledge their sins against their own flock need to be kept out of power.
[Comment ID #28377 Will Be Quoted Here]
Sigh.
Yet another person on the internet with far too much time on their hands.
[Comment ID #28373 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’m not sure if reverting back to violence and barbaric stances would be the answer. I do see there MIGHT be a problem. But don’t you think we are just getting to riled up about opinions here. just because there are accusation being made doesnt mean they are true.
Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish arguments which only upset people and make them angry. 2tim 2:23
Betty
Betty, I’m buying you a sarcasm detector for Christmas.
[Comment ID #28388 Will Be Quoted Here]
That literally made me laugh out loud!
If you guys would care to read the clf blog you’ll see that there were some there that were doing the same thing. Always bringing everything back to the topic of forgiveness. Don’t let these guys waste anymore of your time. Believe me you’ll get nowhere with this. I think it might even be the same people, they’ve somehow changed their names!
FICM and reforming heathen Ecclesiastes 7:9 says Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools. Betty b had a valid point.
I think it is safe to say that it took a long time for anyone on this blog to get angry about what was going on in their churches/lives. Probably even years.
[Comment ID #28395 Will Be Quoted Here]
My answer to Frodo from now on is Proverbs 26:4
“Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.”
[Comment ID #28394 Will Be Quoted Here]
I agree.
Putting them on “Ignore” right now.
I doesn’t take me any time at all to get angry at these emotionally abusive “under the guise of scripture” religious pain in the butts.. Please don’t apologize for having normal human emotions. They are so emotionaly constipated it makes me sick.
Betty,
You asked me, “Why are you so angry and bitter?” You did not answer my question about John the baptist calling the Pharisees a ‘brood of vipers’,
so I’m not going to answer yours.
I hope you can recognize Christ like behavior when you see it. Matthew 21:24-27.
[Comment ID #28405 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’m sorry whathesaid, I didn’t see your question. As I went back and read your comments that question was asked of frodo.
As far as Christ like behavior I do recognize it when I see it. I haven’t see it from most of the bloggers on this sight.
To: FICM
I would rather not enter into your sarcastic world It doesnt seem Christian to me
I prefer to do as the apostle Paul writes in Eph 4:31 & 32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
and be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
chapter 5 : 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor (jesting), which are not convvenient; but rather giving of thanks.
Betty
[Comment ID #28406 Will Be Quoted Here]
How about trying a modern translation with words that portray the original meaning in modern English:
“Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.”
Sarcasm is none of those, you silly English kahniggit!. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time! (in an outrageous French accent)
Dangit! Now look, I’ve answered in folly! But it’s so much fun!
Maybe Mrs. Benny Hinn was right – they all need spiritual enemas!
So, Fox Hole Christian is also Betty B.
Boy.
People with multiple IDs suck.
To whom it may consern;
It’s easier to regurgitate christian catch phrases on forgiveness, anger etc.than to have empathy for others. I went under the name of Betty B. to show the rest of you how silly and upsetting these phrases can be. We have forgotten as a christian community to feel for others. We would rather show how smart we are, tell what book we are writing, what radio station we will be on or what speech we are going to give than to be relational to other people. Maybe the rest of you don’t need to show how important you are but you’re all important in the body of Christ. The outrage you’ve shown in the last two days over the stupid comments of Betty B. have shown me that there is still hope for us yet. Don’t be ashamed to be outraged at pastors who mistreat the flock and don’t be afraid to call for their resignation. What is happening with D.C. is a slap in the face to god.
Still Fighting the Good Fight.
Fox Hole Christian a.k.a. Betty B.
[Comment ID #28408 Will Be Quoted Here]
I got the idea from Dan Wood
[Comment ID #28388 Will Be Quoted Here]
FICM – I’m always confused whether it is sarcastic or sardonic? Can you help?
When it comes to multiple IDs, Dan Wood is an amateur.
[Comment ID #28409 Will Be Quoted Here]
Very clever Foxhole christian a.k.a Betty B. It sure exposed the B.S. that some people spew on this blog.
[Comment ID #28411 Will Be Quoted Here]
You say “to-may-toe”, I say “to-mah-toe”.
Sarcasm is for friends. Sardonicism is for enemies. I guess it all depends on whether or not you think I consider you a friend! haha
[Comment ID #28394 Will Be Quoted Here]
lol
So who did you think I was? Joe bib? Doc? or mabye Dan Wood? I mean word in time….lol
Such easy targets…lol… to fun!
FICM I’ll take the book if there is such a thing if not lets write one…lol
You might be an easy target too if you weren’t hiding in a foxhole for the last thirty years. Come out and fight like a man! Ha Ha Ha so funny! a bunch of gutless wonders dukeing it out on a blog! (myself included)
FICM said:
Good point. We are never told in Scripture to forgive Satan.
Yes.
-joebib
P.S. I’ll ask again FICM, are you Former Inner Circle Member?
[Comment ID #28421 Will Be Quoted Here]
Yup, that’s me. Sorry for the confusion, it’s just easier to type.
Eh, I was just thinkin’ how funny it would be to do a few Celebrity Death Match segments of ‘pastor vs. pastor’ or ‘pastor vs. blogger’…
Judah vs. Dougie
Doug Cotton vs. Dan Wood
Wendell Smith vs. Reforming Heathen
Why, entertainment like that might even draw Locutus out of hiding.
‘Scrupe
Imitation is the highest form of flattery!
Joebibstudent I did not say” the bible orders us to forgive satan” I said “I have forgiven satan. The bible does not command me to brush my teeth, but i do, others may decide not to. How did you come to the conclusion that i said the bible tells us to forgive satan?
Imitation is not always the highest form of flattery. I saw a very large women in the mall recently. Two men were walking behind her doing a mock walk that was not flattering. We can make blanket statements but they are insensitive.
Samaritan: You were wondering the difference between sardonic and sarcastic. They are actually synonyms, both meaning scornful, derisive. mocking, cynical.
Sardonic is named for a bitter plant from Sardinia which causes fatal laughter-like convulsions.
So be careful when being sarcastic or sardonic. Beside being very unchristlike you could cause some innocent person to go into convulsions and die laughing.
s
[Comment ID #28420 Will Be Quoted Here]
yes, this is true, darn I should have held out longer. Betty was having such fun, with her counterfeit Christianity.
You see I the fox do know how to play the game too. But its not real and your fooling nobody.
Its a way for Christians without power to hide. They have a form of it. We are the ones on the front lines in this army of God. Yes its a spiritual battle
but there comes the time to stand up and be counted.
I think that’s what the Lord is telling us here.
This is just practice.
We are being called out each one into the real world, real names, and real churches. To stand up to this Tomfoolery.
Get your fatigues on guys!
We are in a battle for souls!
Satin will use us against each other if we let him.
The Lord ultimately did win the battle
But its not over and we are all important parts, lets stop
arguing and stick to the issue at hand….
Leaders that should not be leading!!!!
Fox
I honestly believe that joe,dave,frodo and Mr. wood are completely out of touch with the common man. I do not think they do it on purpose. It is the same vibes I get with some pastors. I know more than you. Yes you probably have feelings but I don’t want to hear them. Their condescending remarks are pathetic. The glad handing is embarrassing; Hey dave great article. Wow nice one Gee you are wonderful. None of you can relate to others. You have been puffed up in your own knowledge. You are all probably very nice people but unrelational. I know you can come back with a witty dandy to show how hurtful this is. After a period of time pastors become like you. I have forgiven them for their ignorance and I forgive you. Take this as instruction or go your merry way.
Yes, they do.
I believe false I.D.s are the equivelent of intellectual cowardice.
If you can’t make a point under your own I.D., make up an alias.
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“What is happening with D.C. is a slap in the face to god.”
Oh BULL!
What D.C. did to his staff, the Elders and the members of his church was a slap in the face of God!
When a pastor makes the church about THEMSELVES rather than God, what bigger INSULT to God IS THERE?
[Comment ID #28409 Will Be Quoted Here]
Sorry, I misread that.
Let me reiterate, any pastor who abuses anyone should be removed from that position, and should NOT be allowed to return to a leadership positon unless there has been a prolonged course of action to correct that misbehavior.
And for any other church to establish that person in another church in the immediate area of their former church, well, that action is intended to destroy the first church, and there is no other reason for it.
[Comment ID #28446 Will Be Quoted Here]
FICM, Reforming Heathen needs one of those sarcasm detector’s for Christmas, too.
Sam
[Comment ID #28440 Will Be Quoted Here]
I think you’ll need to re-read some of the posts before concluding that I am of the same mindset of joebib and frodo. I don’t know which poster is Dave, so I can’t comment.
What I think needs to happen (and to be seen by those inside and outside the church) is, in no order of priority):
1. Follow scripture in dealing with abusive leadership.
2. Show that we (the church) own up to our mistakes and make attempts to correct them and prevent repeats.
3. Make sure that people are not harmed because we sweep things under the rug.
4. Make every effort to help people heal from the hurts caused by the church.
5. Demonstrate forgiveness in the process (but to not confuse forgiveness with ignoring justice, protection, and correction).
That’s where I’m coming from, and I think that’s where most of the people on here are coming from.
How we do all of that seems to be the challenge.
It seems that these problems repeat themselves, in part because we (the church) do not deal with these things publicly.
Had Bible Temple/City Bible Church/MFI warned Rhema Fellowship about Dave Bryan’s past, he might not have done it again at Rhema. Had they warned the Sequim (WA) church about the situation that occurred at Rhema, he might not have done it again there.
You see, it seems that it is precisely the failure to follow scripture that allows this to repeat.
The Catholic church has learned this at great human and financial cost. Lives have been wrecked because abusive priests were sent from parish to parish without warnings of their past abuse.
This seems also to be the pattern of MFI.
Dave Bryan was sent out from Portland, abused women in Idaho, brought back to Portland for “rehabilitation,” sent out from Portland, abused women in Hoquiam, brought back to Portland for “rehabilitaiton” and then went to Sequim and did it again.
A pattern? Yes!
Poor leadership? Yes!
Following bibilical guidlines? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
SO, that’s where I’m coming from.
Dan Wood
Oh man… you got your names wrong.. it was NOT Dave Bryan but his father, Gail Bryan….
What people are outraged at Dan is the fact that Dick Iverson from BT would send a pastor with a history of adultry to not one but two churhes knowing of his past and then set up mfi to protect future predators. Plus to have an mfi church bankroll an ousted pastor who was disciplined by his local church. It stinks. Some people are crying ENOUGH,when is it going to stop. Why are some people on here doing everything they can to change the true story to forgiveness? We forgive you abusive pastors, now quit preaching.
[Comment ID #28425 Will Be Quoted Here]
I’m not hiding. I probably monitor this site closer than our esteemed moderators thanks to my self-diagnosed OCD. However, the reader demographic seems to have shifted in a way that leaves me in the strange position of having ample material for my “passionate social commentary”, but few who would appreciate my comedic stylings. Thus, the prolonged periods of forced silence from Locutus. Well, that and I don’t read my Bible, so I never have anything to say.
Indeed. Things have gotten pretty serious ’round here. Just miss your one liners, big guy.
[Comment ID #28454 Will Be Quoted Here]
Sorry. My mistake. Change all those references to Gail and the point remains the same.
Thanks for the quick correction.
Dan Wood
here’s what i love about this blog…the people who write this:
The bible says we must suffer for christ. Even though we are mistreated by our leaders WE MUST be obedient even unto death.
Isn’t if funny that in the protestant religion, no one is allowed to protest anything anymore?
In other news: little boys in Palestine are barely alive and because of the dire economic conditions they are forced to feed from piles of trash that come full of animal intestines and half empty soda bottles. you can read about it in the NY times and think about them next time you tithe that $1,000,000 check to your pastor…maybe you can ask them to fly you out their in their private jets, or alteast give you a ride to the airport in their lexus.
or atleast try to think about them next time you throw away all the extra food from your “after service BBQ’s”
I’m not bitter, I’m just plain upset. (you could say a righteous anger)
James Did you know that in the 50s Israel offered to pay for the construction of homes for all the palestinians if other Muslim countries would take them in. Yes their was lots and lots of free space that these Muslim brothers could have given, but they chose to bar them from crossing their borders for political reasons. To shine a bad light on Israel ,and to carry out Hitlers plan ” The Final Solution.: The extermination of the Jews. Think of that when you send money that goes to the suicide bombers.
James 1:27: I couldn’t agree more! It seems like some here like to spend their time criticizing HOW one speaks out against the injustices they or others have suffered instead of condemning the people that do such things. It seems like our time would be a lot better spent discussing the real issues instead of whether someone “sounds” bitter or unforgiving.
Rather than talk about angry pastors, why don’t we talk about the stupid sheep who keep going back for more abuse?
MARK 9:42!!
What in the world are you talking about? What is your point! “Israel offered to pay for the construction of homes if other Muslim countries would take them in”
That was somehow noble!!??
“Uh, we are taking your land and house away from you, but if you can find some other land somewhere, we will pay to build you a house on it.”
Maybe I didn’t scroll up far enough, but the stupidity of somehow indicting ‘other Muslim’ nations for the present situation of Palestinians is amazingly ignorant at best, and maliciously arrogant at worst.
THERE WAS LOTS OF “FREE SPACE” WHERE THEY WERE LIVING AND HAD BEEN LIVING FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS!
By the way.
Shouldn’t we have a blog entitled ANGRY BLOGGERS? There seems to be more of them than ANGRY PASTORS.
Dear Mark 9:24…I think the point that I was trying to make is that the poor are still suffering. I also think it’s unfair to say that all the money would go to “suicide bombers” because I dont think that all Muslims are suicide bombers.*
And to Simpson; I agree, we should have a blog entitled ANGRY BLOGGERS…i’ll be the first to blog about all the things that make me angry (that’s not to say I’m unforgiving)…
I just want to end with this because maybe someone somewhere will read it someday and make an effort to understand why I’m sad…
Matt 25
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
I could be wrong, but I think He means Muslims too.*
(gentle reminder: the sheep and the goats were both metaphorically considered ‘Christians’)
*Just my opinion
karl barf simpson If anyone is a stupid fool its you lamebrain uh if your land is stolen and you come back later to reclaim it and the thieves are laying around your property and uh you kick uh their butts off of what they stole , That is too bad idiot. It was called uh uh uh the dispora uh look it up.
left the a out. Diaspora
Int the bible God gave the Jews the land of Israel . He later told them they would lose the land and be taken away as slaves. They were dispersed among all the nations. God also said they would regain their rightful land someday. In 1948 a miracle happened. Israel became a nation again, just as God promised. They lived side by side with the muslims. Finally all the countries around them rose up to kill them . It didn’t work . During the six day war ounumbered 100-1 the Israelis , by a miracle of God defeated the armies. If you are a jew hater karl barth simpson please don,t stand next to me when you attack them. I wouldn’t want to get your ashes on me if God gets mad.
FICM said:
No problem, I was just noticing a similarity between how the “two” of you post.
I actually thought you had left the site since I hadn’t seen any posts under your longer name since you weighed in on the GB/DC/Ousted Pastor thing a few weeks ago. Glad you’re still around.
-joeb
Someone made the mistake of using son, Dave Bryan’s name in place of Gail Bryan. Does anyone know where Dave Bryan is?
I remember him from PBC as a very kind and gentle person. He seemed to be outside the games.
[Comment ID #28545 Will Be Quoted Here]
I was buddies with his roomie Danny Brown, so I used to hang out in their apartment quite a bit. I remember him in a generally positive way, although I think “very kind and gentle” may be a bit much. Just my opinion…Dave was about a year behind me at PBC, so YMMV.
There’s a picture of him in the Alpha yearbook in gymshorts doing a handstand, and that’s how he struck me…as more interested in sports, sort of a goof-off, who, in common with many guys that age, also had a bit of a smart-mouth, to boot. Of course, he wasn’t the only one
I would’ve never guessed he would become a SP. Mark was definitely more the leader between the two.
Dave and Cheryl (née Allen, sister of Steve) are pastoring in Yuba City, CA at Glad Tidings Church.
-joebib
[Comment ID #28471 Will Be Quoted Here]
Absolutely!!
According to Dave Minor’s bookd “Released From the Trap” 2001 –
How to Handle Anger Righteously – 1. say “God I’m Angry!”, 2. Work (clean your house or your car rigorously) 3. Get a Hobby. 4. Exercise. Dave actually said he would see his ofenders on the ends of his barbells.
Maybe Doug, Dicky and Wendell should try some of Dave’s out-patient techniques.
Did you ever notice how clean pastors cars and houses can be?
Eh, what do you think the interns are for?
Samaritan said:
September 6th, 2007 at 10:46 am
Did you ever notice how clean pastors cars and houses can be?
Eh, what do you think the interns are for?
you are exactly right. I like how us parents are supposed to give up all parental control , let our children live at a church or someone elses house and then pay the church several hundred dollars a month for our children to do have relationships and work for someone else. I also like the new accountability group my daughter just joined. What ever happened to kids being accountable to their own parents? It feels like the church sometimes is out to steal the heart of my child. If I want my kid to attend military school I’ll send them to one. What ever happened to kids serving in their own families and neighborhood, learning from their own parents and relatives? Why has the church taken something that should be happening in normal life and made another program out of it ?I believe it was created for all of those pastors kids that are being brought up in the church because thats where their parents are eight days a week. They don’t realize the rest of us all have jobs and lives on the outside and that our kids should be participating with us “where we live.”
[Comment ID #28568 Will Be Quoted Here]
My daughter did a Master Commission. The pastors wife thought the kids could be worked to all hours of the night. She felt like they should be able to function on 6 hours of sleep a night and be able to work 12 to 13 hour days sometimes 15 to 16.
When my daughter came home for break I had to take her to the doctor because she was sick and was really tired. The doctor said she wan’t going to get any better unless she slept.
On top of it they laid alot of emotional stuff on her for not being able to cope well on a day to day basis.
I can’t believe I sent her to that!
[Comment ID #28572 Will Be Quoted Here]
Maybe that’s just me being a Mom, only then it was come on buck up girl! Sick person that I was.
Hey “Mom”, sounds like it bore wisdom and good fruit, even though the process of getting there was painful.
When it is the church telling us to do something, we do it without using our common sense? I too have noticed that i will do things without questioning if it comes from the clergy., Things we would not do outside the church. After all someone had to take the job of pastor. That does not make them wiser than us, or know what is best for our children. Examles are Jim Jones. Falwell , Haggard etc. Do you think that churches have become big buisness and should not be set up like they are? Maybe god wanted the believers to meet together to worship him and not have someone we pay. Maybe our tithes should be brought to the meetings to help the less fortunate of our local believers and the extra to help other communities of believers. That would be attractive to non believers and they might want to join us. I never thought i would be saying this but reading all of you i am starting to ask questions. Is the local church set up wrong? Are we in the early stages of a move by God to rid ourselves of all these bad leaders? Will there be an underground church of Gods people ? Will the established churches persecute these people because they feel threatened? I don’t know anymore.
[Comment ID #28576 Will Be Quoted Here]
I don’t know if I’m buying into you yet. On the other hand you think he might be getting a clue?
Joebibstudent… okay, I can’t help it, after three months of blogging, I’m still trying to figure out who you are!
We were obviously at PBC at the same time, I was perhaps a year or two in front of you. There are other things in common, such as knowing the Modralls, Tami and her family and many more.
Not willing to reveal my identity to everyone on the blog, however, have you heard the Patsy Cline song, “hey Joe, you put on your dancing shoes and dance the blues away”?
[Comment ID #28598 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well, isn’t that part of the fun around here…trying to figure out who everyone else is? Geez, even getting the gender right is in some cases an accomplishment.
I admire (and secretly envy) the intrepid ones who have the courage to post under their real names
The only one I am really sure of so far is that Finally Speaking Out is actually Bill Sizemore…secretly posting here in a pathetic attempt to garner enough grass roots support to finally get elected to some kind of public office, probably Dog-Catcher. From there, on to Governor.
-joebib
No-U–
Guess I’m too dense to figure out the Patsy Cline reference. I never have been much of a country music fan…as you may have guessed by now, I’m more into “Parental Advisory” Rap, you know, 50 Cent, the degradation of women, etc.
Are those thinly-veiled hints as to who you really are?
1. “Hey Joe” by Hendrix.
(OK, so you’re a black dude with a huge ‘fro and a slight heroin problem. Either that, or you’re Joe Livesay.)
2. “Put On Your Dancing Shoes” by KC and the Sunshine Band.
(Ummm…you’re a skinny white dude, secretly wanting to be a black dude, and partial to pastel polyesters. Or, a renowned Bible teacher with a thick Australian accent. Wait!…that was “Boogie Shoes!”)
3. “Dance The Blues Away” = Van Halen, no?
(Valerie! Is that really you? And you lost those 30 pounds blogging here, right? Oh, no! Wrong song again!)
4. Now I’ve got it…a combination of the above: “Blue Suede Shoes.”
(Elvis does live!)
-joe
P.S. Now, that would be fun…giving out clues as to our real selves.
Joe-
I pick number one…
Clues from everyone would be really would be fun. Unless you give clues and then they still can’t guess who you are… another invisible sheep in the crowd.
So many people during that period that I knew “of” but not genuinely. I had my circle of friends, with a few cross overs. The rest I knew through gossip… I mean, reputation, oops make that “concerned prayer requests”.
Hey Joe!
-c
Well if FSO is Bill S. then I need to ask him how Debbie is? I hung out with Smale and Vincent and we would go over to Debbie’s house from time to time and skip HS.
You would be surprised who knows who on here. I’ve stayed in one of the bloggers home, my children know some of you or have known you, you have led my children.
The thought comes to mind we do live in community and it’s alot smaller than what we think. That’s why to me it is important that we encourage one another to deal with the problems we face in our chruches.
For some it may not be the battle we are to fight right now, but we can be of encouragement to one another and pass on what we have learned from the experience we’ve gained from previous battles.
I don’t know all the battles that are going on specifically say with CLF or DC. I know many of the people that go to CLF and am friends with quite a few now and who have attended in the past. I care about those people, including Doug. My heart is, get it healed our community has gone through enough of this silly crap. It is time we deal with the problems.
My children and grandchildren are growing up on the Harbor. I have cynical children because we didn’t know how to deal with this stuff back then. To me it is crucial. My grandchildren are going to go to school with your grandchildren or children.
No-Umbrella said:
September 8th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Joe-
I pick number one…
Clues from everyone would be really would be fun. Unless you give clues and then they still can’t guess who you are… another invisible sheep in the crowd.
Like foxhole said earlier: If I could just see the back of your head I’m sure I’d recognize you! Ha ha ha……
Well I know I used to wait on one of you back in 1983 at Coco’s on Halsey. Not a bad tipper however there was some of the PBT crowd (big groups) thant liked to come in on Sunday mornings that would always stiff me. Guess they had given everything to the church that morning.
No Umbrella –
So, your first name begins with “c” eh? (writing that down…)
A further clue to me: In PBC, I would sometimes slide my shirt collar and tie all the way up, tight under my chin, and then wiggle my Adam’s apple up and down, which would make my tie flop around quite a bit. I remember whenever I did it in Romans class, as soon as Frank would notice me doing it, he always lost his train of thought. Heh-heh.
Another time, I raised my hand and said, “Frankly, Frank, I’m rather appalled at Paul’s frankness here.” He just gave me that blank stare.
-joe
So Rhema, just wondering here, don’t get mad and start in on me, K? — trust me, you’ll be sorry…I haven’t had my coffee yet
But, did you ever go to the illustrious PBC?
And, hows bout you, anna-L and Sam?
If so, what years? Clues please.
-joebib
Joe, I am not now, nor have I ever been in any way affiliated with CBC/PBC or any other MFI church. Once I did hear Frank preach on ‘gate churches’ in Kansas City at a prophetic conference hosted by the KC Metro church there (Bickle/Cain and Co). Hi sermon was forgettable, but I remember him pointing out his 4 intercessors whose job was to pray for him continually. That always stuck with me as puffed up and weird.
JP and Justin referred to one of my tithe articles in an old post here which showed up in my site stats, so I just had to see what City BUSINESS Church was all about – thought Damazio 3:16 was a hoot and started reading / posting.
Anyway – this is my trademark song, Joe. Cats in the Kettle. I’ve opened a couple concerts with it – the church youth always dig it, but the blue haired old ladies usually hyperventilate.
Sam (Jack Helser, http://www.lordyouare.com)
Samaritan said:
Thanks for the reply, Sam.
Yeah, that strikes me in much the same way.
Unfortunately, the fact is, I see that as the veritable defining quality of most of the “famous” ministries out there nowadays, which I’m convinced is not at all what the Lord really wants, nor is even vaguely related to what He intends to ultimately manifest in these Last Days through His anointed servants.
To quote an overused phrase — which the twenty-somethings are so fond of doing, as ones who are soooooo ancient, and possessed with all sorts of experiences from years and years ago
— “back in the day” when I was an eager little beaver in seeking to please men, I used to sort of do the washing-of-the-feet-of-the-master-by-the-grateful-servant thing, you know, to minister to the man of God, along the lines, I fancied, of Elisha to Elijah, and Gehazi to Elisha. Used to go out on preaching forays with some of the old BT guys, SPFD included, when he was still a lowly PBC teacher. All of which did very little for my spiritual growth in the Lord, but was sure something I took a great deal of carnal pride in at the time. FWIW, he always struck me that way — from day 1.
To tell the truth, and I hesitate to even breathe these words — as the very walls seem to have ears
— but frankly, (no pun intended, I swear!) I’ve always kind of wondered what the big deal was about said person. His doctrinal prowess always seemed to me to be rather substandard — we students were able to mess him up in class quite easily with the simplest of questions — and his material appeared to be nothing more than a cleverly repackaged parsing of the stuff of his previous mentors — LF, KRI, and his illustrious father-in-law. I about fell over when I heard — from him no less! — that KRI had wanted him to take over BT.
I’ve wondered for a lot of years about the KC crowd…Mike Bickle, Rick Joiner, Bob Jones, et al. I’ve hit their respective websites numerous times, searching and reading, signed up for their emails, trying to get a feel for their ministries, and I still really just don’t know how to take them.
Me, too. I laughed quite heartily at that when I first logged on to this site, as well as at the “don’t send us your tithe” part. I thought, “these guys sound just like me…gotta check this out!”
–joe-b
Don’t take them at all, Joe.
They’re dominionists – an attitude that has infected a lot of the so-called prophetic movement.
At 51, I’ve found simple peace in being content with the portion the Lord has given me … I really don’t get the take-over and rule the world attitude I’ve encountered in the KC (Bickle, Jones, Joyner, Cain, Jackson) crowd, and the MFI crowd. Awhile back, I reviewed a Judah sermon, in which he said something like “we are not here to fit in, we are here to take over”. God help the person who is looking for Jesus who gets sucked into religious kingdom building instead.
Sam
Joe-
I figured out who you are… don’t think you’ll remember me. I don’t think we were at PBC at the same time (graduated 76). We had a few friends in common, but that was our only contact. I was heavily involved with Singles Group while under Malmins and had contact with PBC’ers through that. My last name was the same as Patsy but spelled with a K. I married a close friend of Scott M. (though we’ve since lost touch)
I blog because I am trying to reconcile who I was 25-30 years ago with who I am today, and somehow this blog is helping me be certain I took the road intended by the Divine Design.
Love your humor, if not your theology …
CH was CK
clarification..
Lost touch with Scott, not my husband. Been married 22 yrs.
joebib said: and I hesitate to even breathe these words — as the very walls seem to have ears — but frankly, (no pun intended, I swear!) I’ve always kind of wondered what the big deal was about said person. His doctrinal prowess always seemed to me to be rather substandard — we students were able to mess him up in class quite easily with the simplest of questions — and his material appeared to be nothing more than a cleverly repackaged parsing of the stuff of his previous mentors — LF, KRI, and his illustrious father-in-law. I about fell over when I heard — from him no less! — that KRI had wanted him to take over BT.
Joebib just go through your own posting and when you get to the word FATHER-IN-LAW stop and really think about these deep spiritual matters and you will see how simple it all really is. All of us dumb sheep are told that God has placed these people in these positions when in fact Dick was just giving his SON-IN-LAW a job! I also have a friend that went to bt and dated Frank Damazio, Bill Sizemore and others that were climbing the spiritual ladder back then. She said she was dropped time after time as they moved on to other girls that would “help” them realize their spiritual aspirations.
Rhema, you said ” I also have a friend that went to bt and dated Frank Damazio, Bill Sizemore and others that were climbing the spiritual ladder back then. She said she was dropped time after time as they moved on to other girls that would “help†them realize their spiritual aspirations.”
That is oh so true.
The women dated often also had to be classified as “woman of loveliness” which usually meant they shopped at Nordstroms and had a nice figure. I found it pathetic at the time, that when a new cutie came into BT, the “men of god” with obvious leadership potential were all goo-goo over her. The spiritual state of the woman had very little to do with attraction.
That is why they had the nickname PORTLAND BRIDAL COLLEGE!
No-Um —
Ok, I figured you out with those all-too-easy clues, and YES, I remember you! Can’t remember your better half, though.
However, if you’ll read the small print at the bottom of the page, you’ll find I can’t simply take your word for it — you’ll have to provide proof you’ve truly figured me out — as I don’t think you have. You may reach me here at my wife’s email…
(FSO, FHC, LL, M9:42, RS…you will kindly forget what you are about to read)
…jfblodi@sbcglobal.net. Operators are standing by…
Whatever happened to PC? I can’t for the life of me remember if she got married or not. Please tell me it wasn’t to a blond guy! BTW, they gave her the wrong last name in the YB. You gave me that clue so as to throw me off the trail as to having the same last name as her…nice touch
Also, if you don’t mind me asking, how and what is SM doing? Still at CBC? And speaking of him, how are D and GG doing? He still in business with GL? Remember him? He always had us sing “Come Thou Fount” whenever he led worship.
I could go on like this all day. Show’s you how long I’ve been out of that loop.
Also, just to satisfy that which enquiring minds absolutely must know, on the same page, did W ever stay with that gal he left E for?
(Clearing throat)…Ummm…No-Um (sister CH, that is)…let me just say that, verily, tis your loss indeed that your appreciation for my humor extends not to my (His, actually) theology.
But, fear not…there’s still time. The mods haven’t banished me yet
-joebib
I don’t know what I’ve stumbled upon, I’m trying to figure it out. At first it sounded like a whole bunch of hurting and bitter people. Now I’m not sure. I still pick the route of a good report! I agree that there are angry men which does hurt people but there are also pastors that lie…I’m not sure which is worse. To lie and slander others is what we have run into in Alaska…it’s part of their resume. Unfortunately there are no perfect pastors either. I do believe that being humble is the only thing that keeps pastors and their people together and what keeps friends together. In fact it is what restores friends. We need to give people the benefit of the doubt…isn’t that what being a Christian is all about. I would also like to say that if Finally Speaking Out is BS. I just want to say hi Big Brother…thanks for watching over me and protecting me while I was at BT.
You and your wife are welcome to visit us in Alaska. My hubby and I are finishing up building are home by ourselves out of pocket. It is gorgeous if I don’t say so myself. If you want the Alaska experience…we’ll take you fishing etc. You know me by my maiden name (TG). I hope you are being blessed richly. God did have his hand on you, ya know!!
[Comment ID #28372 Will Be Quoted Here]
Obedient to WHO?
David,
Your entire post on the difference between the pastor-king and the pastor-servant should be posted on the front door of every church on earth, kind of in Martin Luther style. Or at least in the pastor’s office just to remind him/her of the choice constantly before us as Christians on what motivates us to serve God. I say ‘us’ because the choice is for all of us not just the leader types.
Having attended a church of pastor-king/queen and now one of a pastor-servant, the difference amazes us every time our current pastor opens his mouth. We’ve heard about how he treats people, too, and even though he’s very blunt and honest, the love is obvious. It’s been healing to say in the least. The damage done by the pastor-king and queen is deep almost to the point of shipwreck, however, so we are extremely gun-shy of the dear pastor-servant while we enjoy his weekly teachings from afar. Someday we may be well again, hopefully. We are better than we were though–thanks to the few patient Christians among us and this blog (which has helped us from the beginning of our ‘transition’).
I never went to PBC, but I’ve known many who have, including family members. I have family members who were close to leadership at one time or another. I lived in Portland in the 80′s and for some reason God always puts this one person in my path and they happen to be on this blog. Also my husband has been involve with PBT in one way or another since 1971.
Soapbox, etc. wrote: David, Your entire post on the difference between the pastor-king and the pastor-servant should be posted on the front door of every church on earth, kind of in Martin Luther style…
Soapbox: Thank you for your kind words. I plan to put it into a book someday. I am so happy that you have found a safe flock of which to be a part. From my experience, being gun-shy in a new church at first is only normal and natural when one comes out from underneath a Pastor-King/Queen system. (Thanks for the “queen” part of that, I overlooked it!). As trust is built in various practical and relational ways, I have found more freedom and trust are able to being built.
Nevertheless, because all leaders are still human, I would encourage you to keep the lines of communication completely open, esp. when it comes to the church’s finances. In the scholarly literature, what I have termed the Pastor-King/Queen system is referred to as the system of church government of the “monarchical bishop.”
I agree with you: the Church needs less self-serving monarchs and more genuine servants. Blessings on you, friend.
I have to laugh because i don’t blame you for the ‘etc’. I was listening to DeathCab for Cutie the day I posted first and was going to post with the DCfC name but thought of trademark violations so came up with SBfC with the added pie for good measure… ho hum details for sure. but later i did say to myself ‘what an eyeroller’!
I will keep that in mind for the future if I ever get out of the ‘go the other way when you see the pastor in the hall’ phase. Fortunately this church has elders who are not employed by the church and that helps. The pastor has indicated often from the pulpit how he hates the ‘build your faith by giving money to ME’ thing and emphasizes prayer instead. The atmosphere there is open enough if something fishy started happening people could challenge it and not even be shunned (there’s a concept!) and maybe even listened to. So, so far so good. But you are right, this isn’t heaven yet.
I think it’s great you are writing a book and look forward to reading it!
It’s finally here!
Frontpage of the Daily World, “Pastor Doug Cotton’s ‘Harbor city church’ to hold first services”
“Lois and I love the people of Grays Harbor and have a heart for our community.” Cotton said We believe that Harbor City Church will be known for its love, its generosity and its faith in God’s goodness.”
Remember now, Sunday Sept 30, at 10 am. Pre-service prayer at 9:15
See y’all there!
We’ll be watching from afar!
I heard over four hundred people were there. I wonder how many still remain at clf.
After this Sunday I’ll bet Doug Cotton is “cured” of his anger problem. What does he have to be angry about now? ha ha ha. TAKE THAT CLF! Get rid of me will you! I’ll show you! Does four hundred supporters look like I have a problem? he he he.
There once was a man named Doug Cotton
Whose anger will soon be forgotton
He was left in the lurch
When they kicked him out of his church
But now he’s back home, and that’s rotton!
[Comment ID #28363 Will Be Quoted Here]
I like what you say about forgiveness Anna. Jesus is willing to forgive even the most hardest of hearts. The following URL is a good example of God reaching out to someone whom most decent people abhor.
http://www.jesus-is
savior.com/Basics/men_who_rejected_jesus_christ.htm
Oops. Try
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/men_who_rejected_jesus_christ.htm
Rhema: You said
There was a young man named Doug Cotton
Whose anger will soon be forgotten
He was kicked out of church
and left in the lurch
And now he’s back home and that’s rotten.
You could have said
And now he’s back home but he’s BOUGHTEN
And that’s rotten! har har
There once was a man named Doug Cotton
Who abused his church and they fought him
He was run out of town
But now he’s come round
Just doing what Wendell Smith taught him!
Is that because MFI bought him?
Or cuz there’s so many people who sought him?
He forming a “Love Church” for crying out loud, he “loves” the people of Grays Harbor! There going to have a church of Love – ! Maybe he should try getting things right with his family first and love them!
What a crock!
I think its all of the above Rhema.
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You expect that kind of stuff from people like Ozzy – but what about leaders who are “Christians”. I think they have a higher standard to follow.
By the way that web sight does a number on your eyes!
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Could it be that his congregation,
finally stood up and fought him?
Peace
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There is still hope for Oz his still alive!
Blessings (:
John Vian: If that website is an example of God reaching out to someone we are all in trouble! I don’t think we Christians realize how whacko we come across sometimes. Following someone all night in their tour bus and then busting in on them to give them a religious track could come across as a little weird to anyone. I might have told them to F off myself. Just because he didn’t jump through the hoop is no reason to create a website telling everyone he’s condemned to hell. I think Jesus would be grieved about that, not gloating about it on some website. I think Foxhole is right. He’s still alive so there is still hope. They should be asking for prayer for his salvation instead of taking pleasure in the fact that he is going to hell.
What was the point you were trying to make anyway? Boy I hate these rabbit trails!
A mean old coot named Cotton
Left his parish all distraughten
The elders at last
Booted his ass
Perhaps it’s a case of McNaughten’s?
Rhema: You nailed it again in the case of Ozzy! I came to the same conclusion; I might have been ticked if someone had been stalking me for miles and then shows up in the middle of nowhere when I am trying to relax.
I would go further……..we all should take up a burden for Ozzy and pray for his salvation and see what God will do. God wants everyone saved!
The point is, if the man who cared enough to hand Ozzy a track, we as christians should care enough to be praying for not only the rock stars but for these pastors also. It’s like God has been dealing with me about leaving The City Church, perhaps. I’m not sure. I could stay and witness to others, or I could leave without showing any concern whatsoever. The problem with staying is I have to listen to a watered down version of the Gospel. I have another church I’ve been attending and I can always get more sermons on the Internet. I’ve already accumulated thousands of good Holy Ghost convicting sermons. The Spirit of God is beginning to move in me, as though it seems. Something is happening to me and I’m beginning to get this burden for the lost souls. I chewed out one of the care pastors at The City Church because he supported the fact that a rabbi was teaching at a prosperity seminar. Come to find out he knew very little about Rabbi Daniel Lapin. I mentioned the fact that Mr. Lapin is very critical of the New Testament and doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah. I got accused of being a Jew hater. Easily disputed and a very weak accusation. One question we must all ask ourselves before ever departing any church. What does God want me to do? Anybody who is living in Christ can make the difference in the hearts of fellow believers. Nobody is exempt. I commend the man who handed Ozzy a track. It takes a brave soul to do something like that and any so called christian should never criticize another for doing as they feel led by the Holy Spirit.
John,
I totally agree that we should pray for these pastors, but that was not the point I was trying to make. If these pastors are self-centered, arrogant, and bad examples of godly men, then they should be rebuked, not put in positions of leadership and held up as good examples of disciples of Jesus.
You said,
I tried that for years. The problem is that to be in the system, you have to give tacit approval to the system. If you begin to dissent, you are quietly approached and eventually shown the door. “Unity” trumps biblical principle.
Also, there is a third choice to your dilemma. You can leave, and still be concerned, talking with those you have relationship with and continuing to pray for the pastor and the church. In fact, if you are known to be a lover of God and one who hears His voice, the act of leaving makes quite a loud statement — as long as you tell people why.
You are walking in a difficult place. May you find grace.
anna said:
Yes, brother. We’re praying for you.
-joebib
An Unscrupulous Man said:
October 4th, 2007 at 6:05 am
A mean old coot named Cotton
Left his parish all distraughten
The elders at last
Booted his ass
Perhaps it’s a case of McNaughten’s?
I’m sure it was a case of McNaughten’s at first. But after last Sunday when over four hundred people showed up I think he’s probably switched to champagne!
That’s the problem with these MFI pastors. Any victory is short lived. There are too many other willing victims out there.
Gee, I wonder why only 2% of Christians share their faith…Oh yeah, when they do even “Christians” chew them out. Gimme a break. I wish Christians would realize only the Gospel is going to change the world. It is the power of God to those who are saved and the aroma of death to those who are perishing.
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!â€
I say that faithful servant’s feet are beautiful, not cursed. I’m sorry for being disgusted, but I can’t believe what I just read. I guess we should be angry with the Apostles for bothering people so much to get killed. What a shame to Christ they were…why didn’t they just do “friendship evangelism”, or “preach the Gospel and use words when necessary”?
I wish there were more Christians like the one who preached the Gospel to Ozzy.
I’ll bet God was really “ticked” at that guy, too. Ticked that he had the unmitigated gall to interrupt Mr. Osborne’s “relaxation” to try to share the Good News that the very God of this universe allowed sinful men to nail His Beloved Son to a cross of wood 2000 years ago in payment for Ozzie’s sins, just so he wouldn’t have to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. Yessiree, he’s definitely an insensitive jerk.
In fact, I’ll bet the Lord God is probably right at the point of joining Rhema in a rousing, collective, “F-OFF!” to the idiot.
As do I, Craig.
-joebib
I think what tics God off more then anything is that we humans have a whole lifetime to get right with Him. Yet we continue to choose living in sin because of the instant gratifications than to turn away from them and follow Jesus. We procrastinate and think everything will be okay because we are living in a period of grace. Then, before we know it, we die in our sins.
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I could be wrong, but I don’t think Sam is referring to the distilled MacNaughten’s. He’s referring to the M’Naghten rule, otherwise known as the insanity defense.
I’ve just joined the Doctrine Talk websight and was reading some of the stuff out there. I went in and started praying and the burden has lifted. Thank you Jesus!! It’s like a ton of weight taken off my shoulders. I’m going to check out Mars Hill this Sunday with a clear conscience that I’m staying in God’s will. Thank you Jesus, and I thank everybody’s input. This has been a great support for me.
John V said – It’s like God has been dealing with me about leaving The City Church, perhaps. I’m not sure. I could stay and witness to others, or I could leave without showing any concern whatsoever.
You could be a puritan, or a seperatist. I tried to be a puritan for years, it didn’t work. I finally chose to be a seperatist. It is really a battle to deal with people who have been so ingrained with the system they are involved in.
As long as you have people who are willing to support them they will continue, period. You have to leave the “City Churches” and pray from afar to stay a healthy Christian as far as I am concerned. You will just contine to battle internally, you are just a peon as far as they are concerned. They won’t listen to you unless the Holy Spirit breaks in. You will be a trouble maker in their eyes.
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Yeah John! The Lord will deal with all of this.
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annaLitical:
If you’re around this weekend, I would love to visit with you live about some of the background stuff you have mentioned on this board. I think you and I could help fill in some missing pieces of the puzzle for each other.
We know a lot of people in common (I grew up in Montesano).
I’m just down the Satsop from you at 681 Monte Elma Rd. (The old Sutherby place)
I’ll be working on my barn this weekend and would welcome just about any excuse for a break!
I hope you can stop by. Mr. A is also welcome.
Dan Wood
We’ll be gone Saturday but maybe Sunday afternoon I’ll talk to Mr. A.
Yeah , that website about Ozzy was just dripping with the love of God for sinners. I’m sure any unsaved person reading it will feel how loved they are and how much we Christians care for their souls. I thought that website was disgusting.
I didn’t like the website myself. I thought there was a lot of strange stuff on there. I was specifically talking about the guy who followed Ozzie to share the Gospel. I wish there were more Christians who did that.
Hey D. Wood are you going to be around next weekend? We could not get away last weekend.
I think I’ll be around. More likely Saturday than Sunday.
Dan didn’t see your post until today. I want my husband to come with me and we are juggleing. I work weekend part days and week nights and starting next week half days. Looks like for us next Saturday late afternnon or evening if that works for you?
Evening looks better
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Alright