Book Review: Wendell Smith, Prosperity With a Purpose
Posted on August 23rd, 2007 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, The City Church, David Mackin Writes: category“I believe The City Church in Seattle has a gift and ministry of giving to the body of Christ. We have been blessed with more than enough! But there are two reasons we have been blessed. One is that we ask every member of our church to tithe. Therefore the blessing of God and the open windows of heaven are always functioning among our people. There is no curse upon us. Secondly, we are blessed because our church keeps giving money away. Each year we give away over 20 percent of our church’s income.” Wendell Smith, Prosperity with a Purpose, The City Church, Kirkland, Washington, 2005, p. 214
Wendell Smith's book is dangerous. Both solid biblical exegesis and balanced biblical theology are missing. Instead, Wendell devotes many pages to an overly-simplistic list of key words and verses that mention financial prosperity, e.g., "riches," "wealth," "silver," "gold," "gems," "firstfruits," "hundredfold," "lands," "luxury," "bankers," "thousand," "tithes," "money," etc. (pgs. 73-123). (Wendell’s friend, Frank Damazio, uses the same technique in Releasing Financial Provision, pgs. 331-378.) Using such lists, and the total numbers of their occurences in the Bible to prove a point without exegesis and theology is not only lazy but a wrong and immature use of Scripture. It would be similar to saying that Jesus is not interested in the Church since he only uses the word "church" (ekklesia) two times in the gospels (Mt. 16:18; 18:17).
Wendell also lists out quotes in favor of wealth not only from Christian sources but also pagan ones e.g., Euripides and Aeschylus, Greek playwrights, Thucydides, the Greek aristocrat, and Confucius, the Chinese philosopher (pgs. 271-285). In response to the hard questions about Christians and wealth, it is noteworthy that Wendell addresses some of them, but his responses are too short and superficial (pgs. 261-270).
The theme of book can be summed up in one phrase: more money, more ministry. In my view, the book is really Wendell’s personal testimony of how he has accumulated at The City Church, as one of Wendell’s relatives told me: “more money than he knows what to do with.”
Is the wealth of The City Church, all due to the blessing of God? Not necessarily. The King County/Lake Washington area, where The City Church is located, is one of the wealthiest areas in the country. Bill Gates, the richest man in the world, lives on Lake Washington. In 2005, the median household income in King County was $58,370. Out of 3,141 counties or county equivalents in the nation, King County ranks as approx. the 105th richest county according to median household incomes (census.gov).
Let’s do church income by the numbers: Pick a wealthy location to plant a church, require all of your church members to tithe, strongly encourage all of your members to give many, many offerings above the tithe, and Voila! Millions of dollars!
In light of this fact, and not just “the blessing of God,” Wendell can tell in his book how more than once someone in his church wrote out a check for $1,000,000. In light of this economic demographic, people have to realize, that just because a church’s income is in the multiplied millions, it does not necessarily mean that it is because they are preaching the “truth” about prosperity or because they are “obedient with the tithe so that the windows of heaven are opened” for them by God.
Besides demographics, the other critical factor as Wendell himself admits as a reason for such wealth accumulation, is that Wendell asks (requires?!) all of their church members to tithe, as well as to give offerings above their tithe. Someone on this blog posted that Wendell does not allow any of the members of The City Church to counsel with anyone on church staff unless they are known to be a faithful tither. If true, can you imagine the kind of pressure and expectation that such an unbiblical practice places upon all of the members of The City Church to tithe?! If accurate, are we to deem such manipulative practices appropriate because they are producing such a large revenue stream? If only because they are producing "results," have we become pragmatists, worshipping at the altar of the “whatever-works” philosophy of John Dewey, rather than Christians following Jesus to the foot of the cross? Do the "ends" of more ministry justify the "means" used to raising more money for it?
The Mormons have used the same fund-raising techniques of the mandatory tithe and additional offerings for many years. They have accrued the same result: millions of dollars to build their many meeting houses (called “stakes”) and temples debt-free! Is the material prosperity of the Mormons a clear indication that God himself is “blessing” them and directly helping them to take their message of salvation by good works all around the world?
My warning to those leaders and Christians who do not know the Bible very well and inwardly long for all of the benefits that wealth (mammon) can bring is not to look only upon the surface of lists of Bible words and verses along with the high-income numbers in The City Church and in other prosperity churches and try to follow suit. Dig deeper in the Word.
I fear that too many Christians will forget the fact that king Solomon had all the wealth that The City Church has and much more, and it was not because he always walked with God or tithed but because he developed lucrative international commerce in his wealthy corner of the world, and, even more critically, because he raised the mandatory taxes on the people of Israel to benefit his own temple state.
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August 23rd, 2007 at 11:38 am
So I used to tithe faithfully and give an extra 10% to missions in the 1980s at BT. How come the windows of heaven never opened up for me?
That is a BOLD statement to say the “open windows of heaven are ALWAYS functioning among OUR people”… or should I say egotistical, closed circle. ..
That’s okay. I do not want to be part of his circle anyhow.
But SPWS is HOW old? 54? 55? Has he not learned in all those years that all inclusive statements are NEVER true??
He is one of those who fudges on “years in ministry” and other numbers games. Go ahead… add up his years and count them out.. the actual number falls short of what he claims. I have decided he counts partial years and all other sorts of manipulations to pad his numbers.
THUS—– can we believe ANY numbers he spouts about?
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:03 pm
I’ve always said the mafia makes alot of money too. Should we pattern our lives after them? And they have loyal -unquestioning subordinates. Sound familiar?
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
PRECISELY! i love the fact that they think that their millions are due to “god’s blessing”. as if blessing = wealth and wealth = blessing. gross. thousands of pastors under the same blessing in, oh let’s say tri-cities or some other boondock area, will never see millions.
can you say pyramid scheme? it’s too bad you can’t report churches to the bbb for overpromising returns with no delivery. hahahahahahaha. that was a joke
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:10 pm
oh yah, and does this mean that you are CURSED if you don’t tithe (ie. fill wendell’s pockets)?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:08 am
I used to be Mormon - so one other thing to note as far as tithes and why the church is so wealthy - LDS members must fulfill certain temple endowments and ceremonies to enter into the highest level of heaven, the celestial kingdom. In order to enter the temple, you must have a ‘temple recommend’ from your local ward’s (congregation) bishop. In order to get this recommend you must be a tither. You cannot just go to the temple whenever you want - you have to be ‘worthy’ to enter, and must first be interviewed and given a slip of paper from your bishop that states you are worthy to enter.
So, no tithe = no celestial kingdom, the highest level of heaven. And reaching that kingdom is one of the most important aspects of being in the LDS church. The church is very wealthy because all members must tithe to enter the temple. Oh, you also get married in the temple - so to get married you must be a tither.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:26 am
I did a little digging in the Word to see what I could find. This is just a small sample to give a different slant to what is repeatedly preached in the prosperity movement churches and TBN.
Matt. 22:19-21, Jesus speaking, “Show Me the coin used for the poll tax. And they brought Him a denarius. And He said to them, whose likeness and inscription is this? They said to Him, Caesar’s. Then He said to them, Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.” Notice a clear division here between money and the things of God.
Revelation 2:9, Jesus speaking, “I know your tribulation and your poverty(But you are rich) Another clear contrast between spiritual riches having nothing to do with ones worldly situation.
Acts 8:20, Peter speaking, “May your silver perish with you because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!” It does not get any clearer than this!
Acts 3:6, Peter speaking, “I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene–walk!”
Question….if people of means were selling houses and lands and laying the money at the apostles feet, (Acts 2:45, 4:35) Why didn’t Peter have any to give?
August 25th, 2007 at 4:05 am
Insightful, excellent post, Dave — one of your best, IMO. All very good points. Can't wait for your tithe book to be done. I will gladly kick in for the cost of having a copy shipped directly to the homes of a few SPs I know
joe
August 25th, 2007 at 11:32 am
Kara: Thanks for sharing about your LDS background. In the book that I am presently writing against the mandatory tithe, I want to parallell LDS and Prosperity messages/theology to show Christians that there is little difference, etc. Since you have a LDS background, would you be interested in doing some LDS research for me in the area of tithing? ‘just wondering…
August 27th, 2007 at 5:58 am
Hi David,
Send me an e-mail and we can discuss. Hopefully I can point you in a good direction.
Kara
September 10th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Wendell writes excellent things. I appreciate my brother in Christ. What kind of a web site is this that I stumbled on last night. Bashing each other, how biblical is that! We love Wendell and are thankful to see how God is using him and bringing healing into his life.
September 10th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Heaven forbid anyone would bash another…I know you would never stoop to that level, Terri. God knows we need more Christians like you.
-I am bitter
September 10th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
There is a bit of ambiguity in that statement. Terri might have meant, “Wendell writes ABOUT excellent things,” in which he would be referring to particular theological content. Or, he might have meant that, “Wendell writes excellent things (like books, Christmas cards),” and in this case Terri was probably referring to a particular object. Either way, I strongly disagree because Wendell does not write about excellent things, in fact, he writes about a capitalist faith and a Christian science anthropology while leading a consumerist/customize-your-faith church. I would also argue that he doesn’t write excellent THINGS/objects either since I have read his books and realized that he is an awful writer (which is probably why no publisher except for “City Publishing” will publish his work).
Secondly,
I think our brother Terri just forgot to place the “?” at the end of this sentence because it is definitely missing. So I’m just assuming that was asking a question, which, I will respond to by stating that this website is a blog. Is that too vague? Specifically, this site is a refuge for those of us that are still recovering psychologically and emotionally from our indoctrination from nice “brothers in Christ” like Wendell.
September 10th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
If this site is a refuge for those of us that are still recovering psychologically and emotionally from our indoctrination from nice “brothers in Christ”, then why do I feel revictimized everytime someone like Terri Mcnellis stumbles on here and accuses me of being bitter and unforgiving? She wants to know why we are still rehashing things 24 years later. You can’t re-hash something if you were not allowed to hash it in the first place. When these things happen the first thing the leadership does is tell everyone not to talk about it ( that would be gossip) and to forgive and move on so as to not get into bitterness. This is just another way they use scripture to control people. translation: I can commit any kind of abuse or sin against you. You have no recourse except to make sure that you forgive and move on as soon as possible. I have no obligation to you whatsoever. If you complain or come against me in any way I will lable you as unforgiving and bitter and teach others to do the same.
Like c.t.p. said Terri this blog is supposed to be a refuge. If you feel no compassion for people who have been abused by church leadership and your loyalty lies with the Pastors that have commited the abuse for God Sakes please leave us alone and let us talk to the ones that do.
September 20th, 2007 at 11:48 am
rhema survivor: I want to take this opportunity to thank you so much for sharing your comments with us on this blog. When I read your words, I identify a person who really knows what they are talking about concerning spiritual abuse. Your point about the need of having people be free to question, doubt, confront leaders and express their inner feelings is very sound psychologically, emotionally and spiritually. Thanks for sharing your excellent contributions with the rest of us so that we can all benefit from them. Godspeed.
September 22nd, 2007 at 2:06 pm
I’m no theologian, but I’ve done my homework on Pastor Wendell Smith. One needs to take a good look at some websights before accusing or excusing him. One URL is:
http://www.anointed.net/Libraryroom/Revival/RichardRiss/questions/questionsl.htm
The end goal is Jesus is glorified. There is no doubt that we all will stand before God on judgment day and be arbitrated for our works. My prayer is that my pastor, Wendell, will shine on that day. That doesn’t mean that I agree with everything preached. I do know; however, that God doesn’t take pleasure in wickedness or the destruction thereof. If this means that Pastor Windell Smith loses all of his worldly possessions then so-be-it. It is his soul that matters and if, per se, God needs to strip him of his material wealth in order to save him then that will happen. I don’t consider it wrong to be wealthy and the Bible does teach to pay our tithes. But the true wealth is in the spiritual and not the material things of this world. Let me share with you this experience. Good and evil. I need to learn how to differentiate between the two. I woke up one morning from a bad dream. Feeling paralyzed, I could sense a demonic spirit hovering over me. I cried out to Jesus and the evil force left immediately. Jesus arrived and I could identify the peace of His presence. Suddenly I could hear Pastor Wendell Smith preaching the gospel. He had a stern look on his face. It was as if he was intent on ushering in the kingdom of heaven. I think the above URL confirms that Pastor Wendell is doing his part. On the critical side, and I’m really being fair, we all need to be watching less football and praying for the lost souls.
In closing, Hell is a real place. Millions of people are going there and Marilyn Hickey could be one of them. Jesus doesn’t want anyone going to hell. There is no rest, no fresh air, and the torments are forever. The question we all need to ask ourselves is, what must I do to not go there. Our pastors are at a greater risk because the devil really hates them just like he hates all who are created in the image of God. Lucifer will do anything to rock them to sleep or to decieve them in to teaching a false doctrine. There is nothing wrong with stating concerns about doctrines taught at The City Chruch. We need to stay in prayer for this church and the leaders that God will use it for His glory.
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:35 am
Mr. Makin: Thank-you for your encouraging words. I was beginning to feel like I was just wasting my time here. It was the same feeling I got in the abusive churches I was in. You see if it was just the leadership that had the problem I think a lot of us would still be in our churches trying to work things out. But like here anytime someone speaks out against the abuse of power there are others that will attack you accusing you of being bitter and unforgiving. If it hadn’t been for the people from Idaho telling me how much I was helping them by just confirming what they were going through I probably would have given up. If we let the ones that seem to be shouting the loudest about forgiveness take over this blog will become just like the churches it was set up to speak out against. Judging from the lack of comments lately I think it already has.
Like I said in my previous post: translation: I can commit any kind of abuse or sin against you. You have no recourse except to make sure that you forgive and move on as soon as possible. I have no obligation to you whatsoever. If you complain or come against me in any way I will lable you as unforgiving and bitter and teach others to do the same.
It appears that they have learned well.
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:08 pm
John Vian, I’m glad that you pray for your pastor. From your perspective, he’s doing a great job. Unfortunately, I have a different perspective, and therefore I grieve.
When I was young, Wendell was my youth pastor at BT. In later years, I knew him as a prophetic voice. His words always stirred my spirit. I have only heard him a few times in the last 4-5 years, but each time I was sad that now his words stir allegiance to local kingdoms and not to the King Himself. He has become a spokesman for Dominionism, the new paradigm of the prophetic / charismatic branch of Christianity.
I’m glad that the Lord has given you a burden for the lost. May you be blessed as you pray for His Kingdom and His will.
grace
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:24 pm
To Ann & Rhema Survivor
We all had to let you now that you are great and your posts have meant
alot to all of us living down here in both content and clarity. You speak
from your heart and we listen because we have the very same one –a little
bruised but better. We have all said we wish we could go to coffee with you
and maybe the Lord will allow it to happen.
So keep on and know that although we are sometimes silent from either
busyness or just allowing someone else to try to articulate what we’ve already
tried to say –we are with you! Sooner or later our voices have all got to rise
up and the sooner the better. Till then we see the cold non- undersanding
faces of our brothers and sisters still caught in the web.
September 23rd, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Never did I think that it would be the Pastor’s who are having the problem
with too much money –teaching prosperity till we puke and living lifestyles
of the Rich and Famous–celebrity factor included.
Aah and we think Britney is the only one affected by the media!
Comeon Dave Macklin I know you have passage to back this up=
something about Pharisees. How much more do we have to take of this
church gone wild video –its unbelieveable!
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:08 pm
No!!!! In my perpestive Pastor Wendell WAS doing a great job. Today I SOB and slober all over myself. You cannot serve God and mammon. If you had viewed the web sight, the date is 1996!!! This is the year 2007 and the message has changed. The City church has invited a Rabbi in support of this prosperity doctrine. I refuse to support that. Rabbi’s do not believe in Jesus!!!!! This is a clear message that the prosperity doctrine in more important than Jesus!!!! I have abandond The City Church because of it!!!!! And I’m sooooo torn up inside. My spiritual life has been ripped to shreds and at the same time taking heed least I fall into deception. My prayer is God will lay to waist the wealth of these people for HIS sake. I have to care, I have to weep, I have to rely on God for His sovern power, I have to empty myself out in humility and abandonment. I have to leave all aquaintances and walk away from this church that is drunk with a seducing spirit!!!!! That was not what God had intended from the start and Pastor Wendell knows this. He is not a stupid man. Just a little intoxicated.
September 23rd, 2007 at 10:03 pm
John,
I congradulate you for your allegiance with Jesus Christ and not man. If only the rest of us would wake up.
I left TCC about 1 year ago now and I feel a burden to tell the lost. I wish more would wake up from the financial drunkeness and see the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I also weep and pray for Wendell and family at the city church…but I am also speaking out!
God Bless,
Craig
September 24th, 2007 at 7:16 am
John Vian said: The City church has invited a Rabbi in support of this prosperity doctrine. I refuse to support that. Rabbi’s do not believe in Jesus!!!!! This is a clear message that the prosperity doctrine in more important than Jesus!!!! I have abandond The City Church because of it!!!!! And I’m sooooo torn up inside.
John: I feel so sad about what you have had to experience at City Church. The good news is that you have seen more light. Your remarks about Wendell remind me of Paul’s words to the Galatians: “You started out so well; what has hindered you from continuing to obey the truth?”
If you don’t mind, may I suggest that if you feel so inclined, that you read a book or two on how to be healed from spiritual abuse. (I’ve posted a list on the blog.) Also, in Jim Bakker’s book, I Was Wrong, he tells of how he discovered the error of his prosperity teaching when he was reading the words of Jesus while in prison. If I can be of any help to you, please let me know. I live in Vancouver.
By the way, one of the books I am planning on writing after my present project is one against the prosperity doctrine. You spoke of a rabbi coming to City Church to promote prosperity. Would it be possible for you to let me know how I might obtain any of this rabbi’s materials for my research? If this works for you, thank you.
Grace, peace and the love of the Father be with you, brother.
September 24th, 2007 at 10:19 am
John V.
We hear you and feel for you and know what its like to have your
spiritual world come crashing down believe me. Its akin to an earthquake
but as a survivor 2 yrs. haste–it will get better and you will see that it
the truth will set you free –however no one said it isn’t painful to see it at first.
The best book we’ve found is ‘Toxic Church’ look on amazon for it and when
the time is right for you to read let it open your eyes to this deception and how it all happened. It is step by step –like taking poison slowly. Another great one
is called ‘Twisted Scriptures.’ Remember it will get better –as you read through the archive of original posts here you’ll begin to understand city church didn’t grow out of a vacumn –see everyone’s experiences. Its the roots. Here’s to you getting well and helping others.
September 24th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Wow, John V. I misunderstood you. I apologize. You said,
How I identify with that! I know others have gone through that, too, and some have written books to help others. I did not find those books, but I did find healing in my “closet.” It is not instant, but it is sure.
There are those who say the answer is in forgiving and moving on. Perhaps. But my current question to the Lord is this: What is the proper response to those who hold the reins of leadership and then lead his followers into error?
It is true that I must leave judgment to the Judge. But there is Scriptural precedence that allows for sorrow, outrage, and intercession. Read Jeremiah. The Lord shared His heart over the state of His people and their leaders with him. The result: Lamentations.
I do not know the answer to my question. But I hold it in my heart until I hear the answer (Proverbs 2). As you continue to spend “closet time” with God, He will be who He is for you, and grace will be yours.
grace
September 25th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Thanks Anna. I’m doing as you have suggested. I will wait upon the Lord for He shall renew my strength.
The vision I shared was one of past tense. The vision of the future scares me to death. I’ll share it openly. “I saw the congregation of TCC looking for Pastor Wendell. They were upset at him because he taught that they could serve both God and money and still make it to heaven.”
I can only guess why they were not able to find their pastor. Either he was in the lowest depths of hell or else he repented and made it to heaven. I think we shall all morn when Jesus returns. We will not weep for ourselves but for the millions of lost souls that went to hell.
September 29th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Is the prosperity doctrine “off” enough that people will go to hell if they buy into it? According to John Vians vision it is. If so could someone please explain? Are people loosing their salvation over this?
September 29th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
The Boundaries book explains it better than any other Christian or non
out there –forgiveness is one thing –one side of the issue. Allowing
an abusive person –hence Pastor -Leader to again cross your boundary
is another thing.
Should we allow our brothers and sisters in Christ to continue to be abused
by these abusive pastors and churches? Have they made a change of
180 degrees and changed their ways –repented and making ammends to their victims?
No - its our responsibility to speak out and help those we can help
–even on a blog-to not fall astray — be lost or mixed up — decieved even if they sound like the most on track religious people out there.
September 29th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Not only has it carried on since our group -and the numbers grow daily-
has left –it has gotten worse –extremely worse.
We are preparing articles that will shock and amaze you at what the
so called prosperity doctrine is doing down here,
Look and really look and see who is getting prosperous—is it the
congregation or one family? I’ve yet to see any statistics of
true prosperity or income going up in one group–in fact do they ever even
take these studies or is it just Creflo Dollar buying Mercedes & the Rolls Royces.
So where are the pure in heart that shall see God?
September 29th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
0236Did any of you see the picture of Doug Cotton on the front page of the Aberdeen Daily World yesterday?
Harbor City Church to hold first services: Sunday Sept 29 at 10am. Pre-service prayer at 9:15am
Lois and I love the people of Grays Harbor and have a heart for our community,” Cotton said in the news release. “We believe that Harbor City church will be known for its love, its generosity, and its faith in God’s goodness.”
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Pastor Dublanko of the Cornerstone church belongs to the MFI ministerial assn. Doug’s church is three blocks from Cornerstone Church.
September 29th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
If all else fails you can start a new busness –I mean church.
When Tupperwear doesn’t work out than move to Avon. Its all the same.
So do they think people in Gray’s Harbor have amnesia? Wasn’t there
an article on this situation in their paper? What is going on up there?
September 29th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Wow, rhema. Good questions!
This is how I understand the Scriptures: I believe the prosperity doctrine falls under the category of II Cor 11:4 — a different Jesus, a different spirit, a different gospel. This passage refers mainly to the teachers, and ends with the phrase, “Their end will be what their actions deserve.” (v.15) {{{shiver}}}
As for the sheep — I think that depends on the individual. If a person totally loves Jesus, and follows the teaching out of a pure heart, it’s pretty hard to think that they will be damned. (I’m talking about those who are Christians already.) God looks at the heart.
In either case (shepherds or sheep), the Lord is patient and merciful. The Holy Spirit will always call for repentance in a variety of ways. And in the end, the Judge of all the earth will decide.
The interesting thing is sitting in a prosperity service (oxymoron). Watch and listen carefully to see what the focus is. Is it all Me-Me-Me? God exists to make me happy and prosperous? I was at CBC last month, and was so sorry to hear the transition from music to the announcements. As always, worship was great — a good opportunity to really pay attention to God. And then Marc gets up and says something along the lines of “God is here and wants to meet your needs.” Kind of true maybe, but it just totally shifted the focus and the whole spirit of the meeting fell flat. (Sorry Marc.) But it happens every time.
Anyway… sorry for a long answer to a short question.
grace
September 30th, 2007 at 1:30 am
Anna, what is wrong with saying that God is here to meet your needs? Didn’t he come to heal the brokenhearted, set the captives free, heal the sick etc? Most of us come to the Lord because we realize that we need a savior don’t we? I think in church when we are in those times of worship and people are really worshiping God that when someone decides that worship is now over and they need to move on to the next item on their agenda it wouldn’t matter what they said. At least you guys can get into worship.Where I’m going by the time the worship is over I’m ticked. Just about the time everyone starts to worship they change up or down or change songs or stop or start so much I feel punch drunk . After the first song or two I just give up.What ever happened to the worship team leading people into worship?
Anyway back to the prosperity doctrine. Could you give me the readers digest version of what it is? Any church I’ve ever been in since I got saved thirty years ago has taught on tithing so is that prosperity doctrine?
September 30th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Hi rhema,
This is from apologeticsindex:
I think it would be safe to include the tithing teaching with “seed faith.” At CBC they call it “Faith Harvest.”
I’m really sorry that I wasn’t more clear about my objections to the idea that God wants to meet our needs. As you said, it is His nature to care for His children and rescue the lost. What I was trying to point out was the focus. When we focus on Him, we gain a trust in His caring nature. But when we focus on our needs, then we can get demanding and selfish.
KWIM? grace
October 1st, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Jesus says that the road to heaven is straight and narrow and few there be that find it. And that the road to destruction is wide and many there be who go this way. Our salvation comes through faith in Jesus. He who hears the words of Christ and does them will inherit the kingdom of heaven. We all have a sin issue. We all must repent and turn away from our sins. (Walk in the light.) I can speak with experience, when I sin against God I become shipwrecked in my faith. Let’s not take our salvation lightly. Jesus wants a personal relationship with all of us. If anyone has questions then read the red letters of your Bible. (If you have the red letter edition.) There is little emphasis on the dangers of sin in most churches. Little warning has been given about sin that is not dealt with. The Bible is our road map. Pastor Wendell is correct when he says “know your Bible.”
October 5th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Toxic Church is good I’ve read it.
October 5th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
I remember the first pastor I heard teach on the prosper doctrine was Casey Treat? I’m not sure of the spelling but that was years ago. And then I think Kenneth Hagen teaches in a similar way. I think Hagen is really convincing because my Father-in-law just thinks he’s great!
Basically if you tithe you will be blessed if you don’t you won’t but it’s taken to a greater extream now. I believe it gets pretty cultish.
October 10th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Sounds more like a game show to me…”Time for Let’s Get Those Blessings with host Casey the Treat.” (Music begins) “Gimmee, Gimmee, Gimmee and you’ll get you some more…”
October 12th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Thanks for the tip annaLitical. I’ll be checking out that book, “Toxic Church.” I just ordered “23 Minutes in Hell” by Bill Wiese. Good book for learning scripture and a real eye opener to the dangers of rejecting Jesus’s sacrifice for our sins. Not everyone believes that Hell exist. I’ve found proof that it does on the Internet. Scared straight is okay but knowing the mercies of the Lord are new every morning is a bit more meaningful.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:15 am
John Vian said: I’ll be checking out the book Toxic Church.
John: Who is the author of Toxic Church? There is also the book called, Toxic Faith by Arterburn and Felton. Might these two titles have been mixed up? …Please let us know what you think of the book(s).
October 13th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Um, to answer your question David, AnnaLitical gave me the book’s name. The title is “Toxic Churches: Restoration from Spiritual Abuse” by Marc Dupont
About Toxic Faith by Arterburn and Felton, I’m going to have to wait before I get the chance to review it. From what I see it should be a great resource.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:42 pm
John,
Thanks for the Dupont reference! I’ll add it to my spiritual abuse bibliography. I hope to write a book on that subject, too, one of these days. Blessings!
October 14th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Any time David that I can be avialable for any information. In my discoveries, I’ve found that it’s more a spiritual warfare than outright human manipulation by other humans. Some of these people mean well but are under the influence of the wrong spirit. The prosperity doctrine stems from the roots of the Laodiceans, as though it seems. The fruits are the same and we all know that an apple tree cannot produce bananas, per se, to be polite.
What’s exciting is that we are living in the last days and God is pouring out His Holy Spirit upon all flesh. I have no doubt in my mind that there is going to be an awakening to a Jesus relationship as never before. In other words it’s going to be unprecedented that even the Shakers are going to be put to shame. God said in Isaiah 13:13 that He is going to shake the heavens and earth in His fierce anger. This is also a scary event but those who seek the Lord with all their hearts will be the rare men who are left. And they will be more precious than fine gold.
October 14th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Actually I was thinking Arterburn’s book “Toxic Faith”, sorry for the confusion. The book I acutlly read was “More Jesus Less Religion” moving from Rules to Relationship. Dave is right Arterburn and Felton wrote “Toxic Faith”.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
After helping to work with many people here get free from the Toxic
MFI church we were part of -still going I might add–we have found there
needs to be an order of steps in reaching them and thus helping them understand–what happened to me?!!
Its a process that can’t be rushed -much like trying to help a chicken
peck its way out of its shell —if helped it becomes too weak to survive on the
outside. Correlation -if you help people out of the syndrome too fast or before they are ready- they go right back in and can become worse -or more religious than ever!
We find it best to let them read ‘Toxic Church’ first and only if they are
out the door -even if it just happened —they can talk like they are leaving but its only when they ‘actually leave’ that they are free .
2. Toxic Faith is whats needed to heal your faith but we all found it most helpful about 2 yrs. into the process when you get past looking at the
church and cult like leaders t’han realise its YOU that needs healing or
more to the point –its your faith’ that needs healing.
Each journey may be personal but we can’t tell you how we watch others
go through the exact same process of healing –its not all pretty but very necessary. Hope this helps someone out there.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
At Least I’m Free - Question - you are still attending a toxic MFI church you have helped others get free from? If I am reading that correctly why would you help other get free and not leave yourself?
I have experienced what you commented on (it’s a process that can’t be rushed). I was free much sooner than other family members when we attended a dominion doctrine teaching church. The churches emphesis was spiritual authority (man being the authority and not God). Although they would say it was God working through man which gave them the authority.
I struggled internally with my conscious for nearly two years before my other family members felt free to leave. It was really hard. Because I had been involved in cult type activities before I starting following Christ it was difficult to distinguish between my past experiences and what I was experiencing in the church we were attending. There were many similarities in manipulation. I don’t think they would have seen it quite the same way.
Other family members would just shrug off the spiritual authority emphesis preached from the pulpit, but for me I was weak and could not help but feel I was being disobedient in ways if I didn’t do what they would say.
I was thankful I had friends who also attended and could see the manipulation and call it for what it was which validated my understanding of what was taking place. Of course we were the problem children. It finally freed me up internally and I could then shrug off the manipulation and see things clearly.
October 15th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Anna litical said: I was thankful I had friends who also attended and could see the manipulation and call it for what it was which validated my understanding of what was taking place. Of course we were the problem children. It finally freed me up internally and I could then shrug off the manipulation and see things clearly.
Yeah, Anna litical, Only after you guys got your spiritual teeth kicked in about a hundred times! ha ha…… We were all rooting for you guys knowing that if anybody could make a difference it would have been you and old dog with a bone.
How is old dog with a bone anyway? I think truth vs. loyalty flushed his bone down the toilet and forgot he ever had anything to do with church. He’s out there in the outer limits somewhere. I think he’s been taken captive. Or maybe he just got taken out by friendly fire.