joebib sent in this article for discussion last week. I've been so busy that I haven't had time to get it up until now (sorry). Here is what he had to say:

I came across this article about "world-famous" polygamist Warren Jeffs, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between all of the mind-control and intimidation that went on in his camp, and what takes place — though hopefully to a lesser degree — in many IC churches today.

Havis writes: "…tithing is a part of my covenant relationship with God. Covenants are made and confirmed with tokens. Jesus brings his blood to the covenant and I (being of the seed of Abraham) bring the 10th part of my blessing to Jesus as Abraham brought his 10th part to Melchizedek. I say it, over and over, again and again, I do not tithe because someone has constrained me and told me that I must tithe. I tithe because I want to. I love tithing. I have faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me."  (June 8, 2007)

To say that tithing is a part of your covenant relationship with God since you are a son of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ is, at first glance, an admirable admission. After all, should not all believers follow in the footsteps of Abraham, the father of the faith? It is also admirable when you say that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me." 

Havis: I would like to submit to you a few thoughts:   

(1) You say that in your covenant relationship with God, “Jesus brings his blood” and “I bring the tithe.” This gives the impression that your covenant relationship with God is not based solely on grace through faith in the blood of Christ, but on a mixture of Christ’s blood and your tithe. I know you say that you tithe voluntarily, which implies that it is not a covenant condition, but it still sounds dangerous to me. 

(2) You say that you tithe since you are a part of “the seed of Abraham.” It is true that Paul calls all believers the sons and daughters of Abraham by their faith in Jesus Christ. However, not one NT writer ever connects being the seed of Abraham with tithing. As RP has asked you: do you also consider circumcision as part of your covenant relationship with God since it was the sign of God’s covenant with him? 

(3) When you tell us that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me,” I think it’s good that you’re sharing, but I feel you need to consider not becoming like the Pharisee who went to the temple and was so proud of his tithing record (Luke 18:12). Jesus says that our giving should be in secret (Matthew 6:1-4).   

(4) In another post, you raise the question of the everlasting covenant and its relationship to the Abrahamic and New Covenants. In my view, all previous covenants, along with all of their “tokens,” have been fulfilled and abolished in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant in his blood. I think that the Book of Hebrews makes this very clear. To imply that tithing was a part of the everlasting covenant before Genesis 14:20 has no scriptural support.

I read the Lord’s Prayer awhile after leaving City Bible Church and it really shook me up. I, of course, had read this scripture while at CBC but it didn’t mean anything (they sort of teach to read scripture but not to ask any questions about it). It wasn’t until I was out that I spent time pondering what it was all about.

As I mentioned before, in many of these mega churches, prayer is really nothing more than a shouting contest judged in about 3 categories: Length of Prayer, Loudness of Prayer (aka “passion”), and Style of Prayer (obscure scripture references, tears, southern accents, ending every sentence with the syllable “a”. For example: Lord-a, please bless this Tithe-a…” stuff like that). At the end of a prayer meeting, although there is no official score keeper, you know if you won or not.

Unfortunately, there are always the prayer warriors (contestants) who have no Style or Substance and try to stretch out there prayer by using one of the following words for every 2 actual “prayer words”: Lord, Father, Savior, God, Father-God,  Jesus, Abba-Father (style points for that one), Jehovah, etc. The prayers end up lasting forever, but nothing is ever said. Anyway, this isn’t what I want to write about so I’ll move on.

This is the “Lord’s Prayer” as recorded in the 6^th chapter of Matthew:

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 

Here’s the problem, at CBC we were taught that if we didn’t ask for what we wanted we would not receive it.  We were taught that if we had enough faith we could have/do anything we wanted. Set your prayer goals as high as possible…of course there are scriptures to help back up all of these things and I don’t think they are necessarily wrong…but like every thing else there needs to be a balance and I believe that this scripture is that balance. Let’s break it down.

Our Father in heaven: I like the fact that Jesus said “Our Father”, I think it shows how much God loves each of us. Jesus is HIS SON, and he just as easily could have said “My Father” or just “Father” but instead Jesus chooses to show how God views all of us in saying “Our Father”…

Hallowed be your name: Here he gives honor to God, this is key I think. Let’s not forget who’s who in this life…We need God, He doesn’t need us.

Your Kingdom Come: I’m not entirely sure what He’s saying here, but maybe Jesus is saying “Let’s get this life over with so we can spend eternity together” or maybe He is saying “Bring your presence here to this earth”. Could be something else entirely, I don’t know.

Your Will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven: This is it. This is the key to the whole prayer (imo). Here, Jesus submits to God. He acknowledges that it is far better to have God’s will than your own will being done. And He does it prior to asking for anything personal. This is the important balancing factor to “Faith” Prayers and your “Name it and Claim it” Prayers. We must always be willing to submit to the will of God. More on that later.

Give us today our daily bread: Not a huge request here. He isn’t asking for a fortune, He isn’t asking for Power, He isn’t asking for a Miracle, He just wants His daily bread. To me, “daily bread” represents the simple things in life that we need to survive…and this is after already telling God that we need His will to be done. If God doesn’t want us to have our “daily bread” so be it.

Forgive us our debts: Equally important, actually, now that I read it. Our debts of course are our sins and we need God to forgive us…constantly. This isn’t a one time “sinners prayer”, this is a prayer that we should say over and over. We need God to forgive us as much today as we will tomorrow. I think this is one of the biggest problems with American Christians today, they seem to think that 1) God works for them and 2) that we need God’s grace when we first get saved and then after that it is up to us to prove our worth. This, of course, is backwards thinking. God is in control…we are nothing.

As we have forgiven our debtors: Yes, City Business Church, you read that right: We must forgive those who sin against us just as much as we want God to forgive us. We’ve had a lot of debate back and forth about forgiveness. This really is another post for another day, but real quick, here is the dictionary definition of Forgive:

1.              To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2.              To renounce anger or resentment against.
3.              To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

Part of the problem with the bloggers here is that they have been told that everything is their own fault. All their problems are their fault and not the fault of Church Leadership (or whoever). See Craig’s post on Doug Cotton’s last sermon for PROOF.  Many are just now realizing that the Church was wrong and it is not their fault and that is why so many are out venting here…I think this is the first step to forgiveness…unfortunately it can also be the first step towards bitterness…it’s a fine line people, please be careful.  Feel free to talk about and discuss your hurts, but there will come a time when you need to let it go.

And lead us not into temptation: This could be a whole other discussion, but let’s save it for later and just make a mental note that Jesus really did ask God to not tempt us. I find that interesting seeing as how many Christians want to blame Satan for every issue they have and maybe, just maybe Jesus is once again hinting at the fact that God is in complete control of everything.

But deliver us from the evil one: A great way to end your prayers. Deliver us from Satan. Though out this entire prayer, Jesus, keeps showing how much God is in charge. Yes, every Christian in the world will tell you that they know that, but how many of them act like they believe it?

Jesus does a great job of hitting some key points in a prayer and manages to do it in all of about 20 seconds of prayer time. He then gets back into discussing forgiveness (kind of a big point here) in the next 2 verses.

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14-15)

For as much grace as we receive from God, we need to be sure to pass it on to others.

There hasn't been a lot of blogging going on here lately, and I don't have much time now, but I thought I would share an email I recently received that touched my heart:

 In trying to find a friends, web address I stumbled across this. I use to go
to Rhema and Bible Temple and I know many of the names you mention.
I have to say that you are very bitter and I am sad for you. I'm wondering
what God will say to you when you stand before Him. I have a great peace at
night when all the lights are out and only He can see my heart. I feel sorry
for you.

 - Terri McNellis

The email subject line said : You are bitter. It's been such a long time since I last heard someone say I was bitter, I was begining to think this blog had lost all its power.  Thank you Terri, your kind words have restored my faith in the Christian Church.

Oh…and Terri, one last thing, a quote from Borat, "You will never get this, you will never get this, la la la, la la la".

Sam just shared some great thoughts on the Lord's Prayer, but I thought I would take a stab at it as well. I'm actually backing up a couple of verses and starting at Matthew 6:5 where Jesus gives a few more directions on how to pray. On a quick, semi-related side note, Craig linked to a great article on how Christians are taught to approach the Bible, it's rather fascinating…check it out.

Anyway, Matthew 6:5 says:

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

Anyone that has spent time in these MFI related megachurches will know what this is all about. My experience was that anytime there was a special prayer meeting someone would set up a microphone and people would take turns yelling prayers into it…lets pause and read Matthew 6:7

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

…so people would yell prayers into a microphone in front of everyone else, and let me tell you, the louder you were, the more passionate you were, and the longer your prayer the better a reception you would receive. People would say things like "Great Prayer" or "I was really moved by your words"…quite ridiculous in my book. This sort of praying leads to the creation of standard filler prayers such as:

Requesting a "Hedge of Protection", "Rivers of whatever (love, mercy, joy, etc)", the word "More", said over and over and over…I'm actually struggling to come up with more of these meaningless filler prayers…help me out…

For those of you who have been watching Big Brother 8 (greatest show on tv during the summer, btw) Jameka and Amber have given us plenty of those prayers…Amber even went so far as to say "God bless you God" on multiple occasions (I tend to think that God will bless God if God wants God to be blessed…but maybe He needs Amber to remind Him…I don't know.)

Another story I heard was, during the send off party for SPES and Family someone prayed that God would "give them Dove Eyes"…seriously, Dove Eyes…it's actually a reference from the Song of Solomon, but I'd say it is right up there with some of the best meaningless filler I have ever heard. Now that I think about it, the send off party may have been for Gareth Gilpin and family I don't recall…I guess we should check in on them both and see whose eyes most resemble that of a Dove…side story: Gareth was my first small group leader at CBC. I was an 8^th grade homeschooler trying to fit in and he made me feel very comfortable. Thank you Gareth, I've always liked you.

To get back on track, Jesus gives us fairly clear instructions on how to pray and it looks like this:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (Matthew 6:6)

(sarcasm alert) I interpret this scripture to say: "Pray in your room and God will reward you with Dove Eyes. Anyhow, this  post is already long enough…we'll save the Lord's Prayer for later.

God bless you God.

For the last few days, I've gone back to the former habit of spending some time reading scripture, praying and meditating when I first get up … it's something I did for a few years when the Lord first called me out of the IC, but not in the last 5 years as the habit just sort of faded away as being rooted in religion … it seems like I'm free to return to it now because I want to or am so called …

Anyway - I found myself wondering how or what I would pray for IF the Lord were to say to me "you may make one prayer request" … I couldn't decide what I would ask, however it did make me think about how I should ask, the answer to which prompted me to look at the Lord's prayer …

There I made a couple very simple observations.

The Lord's prayer is made up entirely of simple, direct declarations and directives.

Matthew 6:9-13 KJV  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.  (10)  Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.  (11)  Give us this day our daily bread.  (12)  And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.  (13)  And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

There are no question marks as I might expect to find after a statement such as "Lord, would you please give me some bread for today?" Instead, the prayer is a direct and emphatic declaration "Give us our daily bread" - in fact, in that statement, the prayer takes ownership of the bread by calling it "OUR daily bread" - it conveys a sense of entitlement, expectation. What I am struck with is, the baggar asks, begs, pleads; but the sons direct and expect.

Matthew 15:21-28 KJV  Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.  (22)  And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.  (23)  But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.  (24)  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  (25)  Then came she and worshiped him, saying, Lord, help me.  (26)  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.  (27)  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.  (28 )  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

In the passage above, the woman cried and pleaded like a beggar (vs. 22), Christ ignored her (vs. 23). In vs. 24 Christ basically says that He is sent for God's people - God's sons and daughters of Jacob. In vs. 25 she tries an almost formulaic approach - worship / begging followed by request. Again in vs. 26 Jesus reiterates that He is there for the children (sons and daughters) of God. Finally, in vs. 27 the woman makes a declarative statement, saying in effect "you are my master" and in so doing, though not an Israelite by birth, she is a son of God by faith in Christ. In vs. 28, Jesus responds to her as a daughter by faith and gives her what she has sought.

So, I find myself looking back upon my prayer life, at all the unanswered prayers, asked not as a son by faith, but as a beggar submitting a request to the Lord which He may or may not fulfill.

Have I been praying wrong?

How do you pray?

Sam