Havis writes: "…tithing is a part of my covenant relationship with God. Covenants are made and confirmed with tokens. Jesus brings his blood to the covenant and I (being of the seed of Abraham) bring the 10th part of my blessing to Jesus as Abraham brought his 10th part to Melchizedek. I say it, over and over, again and again, I do not tithe because someone has constrained me and told me that I must tithe. I tithe because I want to. I love tithing. I have faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me." (June 8, 2007)
To say that tithing is a part of your covenant relationship with God since you are a son of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ is, at first glance, an admirable admission. After all, should not all believers follow in the footsteps of Abraham, the father of the faith? It is also admirable when you say that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me."
Havis: I would like to submit to you a few thoughts:
(1) You say that in your covenant relationship with God, “Jesus brings his blood” and “I bring the tithe.” This gives the impression that your covenant relationship with God is not based solely on grace through faith in the blood of Christ, but on a mixture of Christ’s blood and your tithe. I know you say that you tithe voluntarily, which implies that it is not a covenant condition, but it still sounds dangerous to me.
(2) You say that you tithe since you are a part of “the seed of Abraham.” It is true that Paul calls all believers the sons and daughters of Abraham by their faith in Jesus Christ. However, not one NT writer ever connects being the seed of Abraham with tithing. As RP has asked you: do you also consider circumcision as part of your covenant relationship with God since it was the sign of God’s covenant with him?
(3) When you tell us that you have "faithfully and lovingly tithed for more than 45 years. It is one of the most pleasurable things I do in life me,” I think it’s good that you’re sharing, but I feel you need to consider not becoming like the Pharisee who went to the temple and was so proud of his tithing record (Luke 18:12). Jesus says that our giving should be in secret (Matthew 6:1-4).
(4) In another post, you raise the question of the everlasting covenant and its relationship to the Abrahamic and New Covenants. In my view, all previous covenants, along with all of their “tokens,” have been fulfilled and abolished in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant in his blood. I think that the Book of Hebrews makes this very clear. To imply that tithing was a part of the everlasting covenant before Genesis 14:20 has no scriptural support.
(5) I agree with you that Jesus is the new high priest of the New Covenant in the order of Melchizedek. The New Covenant was sealed by his own death on the cross as our Passover sacrifice and demonstrated by his resurrection from the dead as our Firstfruits offering. In his death and resurrection, therefore, Jesus himself fulfills and abolishes every sacrifice and offering of the OT system including the tithe, which, among other things, was a part of the heave offering system given to the priests.
Hebrews 7 shows that Christ's priesthood is superior to all previous priesthoods. Yes, Christ is in the order of Melchizedek but the author of this chapter never identifies him as Jesus in the flesh or as an OT Christophany. Instead, the author uses terms of similitude: "like" or "as" Melchizedek.
There have been so many Christians fascinated with the identification of Melchizedek down through the centuries that a Melchizedek cult was formed. Because such speculation, condemned in kind by Paul in the Pastorals, had ran amuck, the Church, in an official way, stopped such guessing about this king-priest of Salem. Such speculation is not essential to the Gospel and can divert Christians from keeping their focus on its proclamation to the world.
Hebrews 7 uses tithing to show the inferiority of Aaron, Levi as well as Abraham to Melchizedek as a prototype of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant in his blood. Thus, to agree with what Paul said: "In all things that Christ should have the pre-eminence."
Even though
Hebrews 7 describes the priesthood of Christ as according to the order of Melchizedek, I have been unable to find any NT writer who applies Melchizedek, or his order, to any Christian pastor/leader or believer. I recently mentioned this point to a major pro-tither. He side-stepped the issue and said that all believers were a part of the Melchizedek priesthood. That sounds good since all believers are called "kings and priests" by the NT (as Melchizedek was a king-priest), but such a broadening of the Melchizedek priesthood, among other problems, creates the question: Why can't every believer get a part of the Church's tithe booty!?
Because of this, I think that we are on safer ground to say that the order of Melchizedek only applies to Jesus Christ and his unique birth ("without father or mother"), death and resurrection ("lives in the power of an indestructible life").
From these biblical facts I conclude, at least so far, that pastor/leaders have no NT basis to claim to be a part of the Melchizedek priesthood, and, therefore, they have no NT right to lay claim to the tithes of God's people in trying to use Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek as their precedent.
Abraham's one-time tithe of war booty to the king-priest of Salem cannot be set up as a regular giving pattern for NT Christians because (as many on this blog have faithfully pointed out):
(1) It was a one-time tithe;
(2) Abraham used other people's money and goods to pay the tithe;
(3) It was a voluntary tithe and not a compulsory one; and
(4) The truth that all of the NT writers wanted believers to recall from Abraham's life was his faith/trust in God since none mention his tithe to Melchizedek except in
Hebrews 7 and that was never to command Christians to tithe but simply to say that Jesus and his New Covenant is superior to all OT personages and institutions.
I am glad, Havis, that God has blessed your tithing over the years. I do not want to take such rejoicing away from you. Nevertheless, since none of the arguments from Melchizedek or his priesthood prove that Christians are obligated to tithe, I must encourage you to continue to tithe voluntarily and privately. As Paul said to the Christians in Rome about contentious issues that were not essential to the Gospel:
"Let them keep it between themselves and God" (
Romans 14:22).
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September 21st, 2007 at 7:37 am
Glad (?) to see that Havis is still with us. He does try to keep the pot stirred.
David;
A great rebutal. Your perspectives, scriptural refferances and words are well placed. Thank you for your wisdom.
pl
September 21st, 2007 at 8:58 am
pleasedreader said: A great rebuttal. Your perspectives, scriptural references and words are well placed. Thank you for your wisdom.
pleasedreader: Thank you for your kind words. I feel encouraged by them since what I posted will be part of the book that I am presently writing against the mandatory tithe. I will be adding more Bible references to the material later; I held off on adding most of them into this post to save a little time. Blessings!
September 21st, 2007 at 4:38 pm
David,
Thanks for posting this rebuttal of tithing. You make very good points that make it easy to see through this false doctrine. I found your insights on Melchizedek to be especially interesting. Of course you know the mormons have a ‘melchizedek priesthood’ in their pecking order of authority. It is interesting how false doctines imitate one another, the tentacles of tithing are also squeezing the financial life out of the followers of mormonism. They have got to keep buying land and building temples! Oops! Am I talking about CBC or mormons?
September 21st, 2007 at 6:29 pm
My daughter-in-law told me the other day that she and my stepson (they are mormons)are behind twelve thousand dollars on their tithes. She said they try to stay current but have gotten behind several times ( another time it was eight thousand). They are a young couple with small children and just getting started in life. She said how hard it was to keep up but at the same time she wants to please God and do what is right. I could see that they are in great bondage and under a great deal of pressure because of this. It makes me sick. The Mormon Church is taking advantage of them because they want to please God!
Just thought I’d give a real life example of the “tenacles of tithing squeezing the financial life out of the followers of mormonism.”
September 21st, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Rhema,
Sorry to hear of your family members carrying such a heavy burden. It makes me sad.
In my studies, I have slowly been changed in mind and heart. A lot of it comes from reading the gospels, and paying attention to what Jesus said and did. I love Matthew 6, where He tells us how to be rewarded by the Father. Verse 4, by giving alms in secret. verse 6, by praying in secret, and verse 18, by fasting in secret. Tithing doesn’t seem to matter to Jesus.:) I don’t think the ‘reward’ will be money, but an abiding presence
that He promises in John 14:23. What more could anyone want?
September 23rd, 2007 at 2:14 pm
When people tell me that we should continue to give the tithe to Jesus because he is the high priest after the order of Melchizedek. Then i ask them, he’s also the lamb of God, so does that mean we should still sacrifice animals on the altar?
I have a list of common tithing arguments and the rebuttal on my website, which is linked to my name above
September 25th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Incredible! i love those words, be blessed, we are no longer under the law, tithe has caused a lot of rapidly growith of churches that are compromising God’s standard with payments! Many churches have been established by ‘’i will get money'’ minds.What if there would be no tithing practise? Most of the churches would be there?. I am living East Africa where tithing is an order of the day or month! HOW CAN I CHANGE THE MIND OF THESE PEOPLE? they are real in the dark, they may excommunicate me
September 27th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
humphrey said re: tithing: rapidly growing churches…compromising…i will get money…how can i change the minds of these people…excommunicate me…
humphrey: thank you for sharing your concerns with us on this blog - all the way from africa! i want to assure you that many other brothers and sisters have feelings similar to yours about some of the imbalances and dangers of the prosperity doctrines. recently, a missionary friend of mine who is working in uganda, preached from the pulpit about some of the dangers and extremes of the prosperity doctrine. Soon after he made his remarks, a pastor sent him a note that his time was up and that he should sit down and end his message!
those who question the mandatory tithe and the prosperity doctrine are genuine spiritual and financial threats to those who promote them. it’s sad but true. many pastors feel that without their ability to use the Bible to “encourage” their congregations to tithe to them, that they would not be able to be financially supported in their ministries.
you ask how you can change the minds of these people. without puttin water on your godly fire, i want you to remember that it is not you who will be able to change anyone’s mind; it is the Spirit bearing witness to the Word spoken in love and humility that will bring change; this is not to say that you should not discuss the subject with others and ask the hard questions, but, as with all truth, it is ultimately the Spirit who is the revealer and the teacher.
if you feel that the Spirit wants you to try to communicate to others that they are not under the mandatory tithe and the prosperity doctrine has many flaws to it, something you might do is to compile teachings on the subject. e.g., if you go to the home page of this blog and look under Categories, you will find one named Tithing. you can use some of that material. there is much more than what i shared above. you can also find anti-tithing material widespread on the web. to open the discussion, you might just casually say that you threw a little paper together because you are interested in the subject, and would like their input and critique on it. admit that you are still rolling some ideas around in your head. sincerely asking for their critique puts you in a position of meekness and teachableness which many leaders like. while they are reading your points with an eye to “help you see the light,” the Spirit may just use your well-written paper to sow good doubts in their minds about what they believe.
if you want to be gentle in your approach, then you could us the “i feel confused” approach. instead of saying YOU ARE ALL WRONG, which would put anyone on the defensive, start with the verse that they claim supports tithing, then bring up another one that does just the opposite from the New Testament, and then say, “can you help me here? i feel confused about how these verses apply to us today.” how could God be saying contradictory things unless something changed with the the coming of jesus and his introduction of the new covenant.
if you genuinely fear that you might be disfellowshipped by pursuing this course, you may want to reconsider. by reconsider i do not mean that you change your mind about the subject, but simply look at it as agreeing to disagree about something. whether or not you will be able to do this with good conscience will depend at least on two factors: (1) do you feel that God has placed you in that fellowship and does not want you to leave? (2) how much giving/tithing pressure is coming across the pulpit and how public the pastor demands the congregation to be in terms of their giving and tithing. Jesus said to give our alms in secret (mt. 6:1-5).
i feel your pain and frustration, and i hope that my few words will encourage you genuinely to pray about what you are to do. i bless your love for the truth and your willingness to speak up! even if you are led by the Spirit not to confront your leaders at this time, i pray that you will compile an excellent tract or booklet on the freedom of the new testament believer, as God allows, and distribute it appropriately.
I leave you now with some of my favorite words from the apostle Paul: “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).
September 28th, 2007 at 11:30 am
My son just printed off an article titled “Are Mega-Preachers Scandal-Prone?” This is a “TIME” magazine article. You can get to the link through Yahoo News. Check it out “the world” is more than aware. What a sad witness! More validation as to what this blog is all about.
October 20th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
You all really need to get a life! And your suppose to be christians?
October 21st, 2007 at 7:26 am
I find it humorous how defensive people get about the “tithe”. Say you don’t believe in tithing and they act like you said you don’t believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Kinda makes you wonder what the foundation of their faith is?
October 21st, 2007 at 7:15 pm
I went to church this morning. It was pretty spooky. During offering time, they put this weird thing on the projector and made everyone say it together. It went something like this:
I will get a better job.
I will get refunds and rebates.
I will get checks in the mail….
on and on (about 20 things).
At the end, it said something like “because I give, I expect and anticipate to receive God’s blessings.”
I was so outta there.
I don’t tithe in an institutional church but I do give the Lord more than 10%. I invest money in people, not institutions. How many rich pastors can say that?
October 22nd, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Mike: I don’t understand what you meant when you said that you felt that all of us needed to get a life. I was the one who posted this response to Havis Gabbard and I haven’t heard back from him since. Would you mind explaining more exactly what you meant? Thanks.
—-
B.T. Beauty said: …I will get a better job.
I will get refunds and rebates….
B.T. Beauty: That sure is a beauty! It’s almost unbelievable. You’ve inspired me to see if Frank Damazio has anything like this in his book, 52 Offering Prayers and Scriptures.
I would love to use this material in my research on the tithe and/or on the prosperity doctrine. Could you tell me what church this was (date, time, name); and if you could remember the exact words, could you put them in quote marks for me?
This is a beautiful example of how the church is moving away from prayer and the simple gospel of Jesus Christ to the power of positive thinking and confessing, group manipulation, and New Age magic. Next, the pastor will be telling each member of the congregation to place color pictures of Mercedes Benz’ and investment properties on their refrigerators: the power of visualization - ofcourse, it’s all “for souls” and “the kingdom of God!”
P.S. Blessings on your investing in people rather than in institutional church monarchies run by rich pastor-kings!
P.S. I find it sad that one of the main prooftexts of the Positive Confession movement, i.e., Romans 10:8-10, is taken out of its salvation context and applied to material gain:
“But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.”
So far, it appears to me that the Positive Confession movement would rather have us read these verses this way:
“But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the secret word of magic we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, “I am Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead for your own material gain, you will be rich and prosperous! For it is with your heart that you believe and are made wealthy, and it is with your mouth that you confess and become a huge success.”
—-
RP: “…Jesus rose from the dead…” …concise and to the point! cuts right to the heart.
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:00 am
LOL.
Look out, now. You’re getting dangerously close to the heart of the matter (Luke 6:45).
-joe
October 23rd, 2007 at 6:03 pm
David Mackin,
This happened last Sunday at approx 11 am at:
Crossroads Worship Center
330 S. Main St.
Willamina, Oregon 97396
503-876-4424
Randall and Janine Long
Senior Pastor
revrl@wbcable.net
It was said during the offering. (Drumroll please) Here it is!
As we bring in tithes and offerings, we are believing the Lord for:
· Benefits
· Settlements
· Jobs or better jobs
· Raises and bonuses
· Resurrected stocks and bonds
· Sales and commissions
· Estates and inheritances
· Interest and income
· Rebates and returns
· Checks in the mail
· Gifts and surprises
· Finding money
· Bills paid off
· Debts canceled
· Royalties received
· Multiplication
· New businesses
· Clever inventions
· Increased buying power
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:06 pm
…and a one-way ticket out of Willamina.
October 24th, 2007 at 11:29 am
B.T. Beauty said: Crossroads Worship Center, etc.
B.T Beauty, Thank you very much for this information! It’s going right into my book. Fabulous!
P.S. I am open to receiving any more research from anyone else on this blog like this for my book, too!