A post from JoeBib
Posted on September 22nd, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others categoryjoebib sent in this article for discussion last week. I've been so busy that I haven't had time to get it up until now (sorry). Here is what he had to say:
I came across this article about "world-famous" polygamist Warren Jeffs, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between all of the mind-control and intimidation that went on in his camp, and what takes place — though hopefully to a lesser degree — in many IC churches today.
What those poor women went through is almost unbelievable. I hope the guy gets the book thrown at him.
joebib
*UPDATE*
I fixed the link. Here is the correct link to the story.
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September 27th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
What a disgusting piece of work Jeffs must be! How could anyone marry off a 14 year old girl to one of her cousins? It sounds like he would be right at home with the taleban.
The whole article underscores the need for an overhaul in the way we think about church leadership. Anyone who seems hungry for a title like ’senior pastor’ or ‘apostolic leader’, a ‘prophetic annointing’ etc, should read carefully what Jesus says in Matthew 23:10, “And do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is Christ.”(NASB) A good rule of thumb for someone who wants to speak for the gospel, “He must increase and I must decrease”.
September 30th, 2007 at 10:18 am
Joe said ” couldn’t help but notice the similarities between all of the mind-control and intimidation that went on in his camp, and what takes place — though hopefully to a lesser degree — in many IC churches today.”
So why do “we” continue to attend these churches and send our kids through their mind-controlling educational programs? Isn’t the fact that it goes on at all enough to walk away and want nothing of this, or anything slightly related to this? Perhaps one thinks a “little bit of control isn’t going to hurt” but isn’t that somewhat like being “a little bit pregnant” or a “little bit dead”?
October 2nd, 2007 at 2:31 am
Norella–
I’m sure parents are hoping for the best when they place their kids in these programs, and just because they may recognize some areas where they are in disagreement with the IC, they probably figure it’s no big deal.
However, AFAIK, the whole Jeffs thing is not the same IC stuff that most of us here are/have been involved with. Sounds like it was more of a Jim Jones/David Koresh type of thing, where you live in the “church” compound, eat all your meals together, etc.
Also, I think it’s partially because there’s that aspect of human nature which subconsciously desires the security and safety of being involved in something with very strict parameters and clearly outlined borders — I know I feel better in an atmosphere that has rules and regulations.
This is just a personal observation, and I could be wrong, but I’ve seemed to notice that those of us who are in our 40s and up appear to be more at home in places like that than the younger ones who are in their 20s and 30s do.
Why? Who knows — maybe it’s because of all the wildness, rebellion and questioning of authority we collectively went through in the turbulence of the 1960s and 1970s that makes us yearn for the more overt stability which the IC provides. When the whole wide world as you know it — politically and socially, ethically and religiously — gets turned upside down, it’s bound to leave a lot of deep-seated insecurities.
-joeb
October 4th, 2007 at 7:11 am
Jodent -”Also, I think it’s partially because there’s that aspect of human nature which subconsciously desires the security and safety of being involved in something with very strict parameters and clearly outlined borders — I know I feel better in an atmosphere that has rules and regulations.”
I couldn’t agree more. My husband was raised in an extremely strict home and coming to the structure felt “normal”. But as Bruce Cockburn, my favorite poet musician, would sing “the trouble with normal is it always gets worse”.
For myself it was the lack of boundaries as a teen that prompted me to come to Jesus, and then be immersed into the legalism. I tried to get attention from God by being really good and always having the best “attitude”.
I marvel that even at the ripe old age of forty twelve I am still affected on a deep emotional level by things that happened as a teen and young adult.
I also marvel that my relationship with Jesus is even more precious and consistent than when I was in the church. I think having all the voices coming at me, telling me who I should be and what I should do and how I should feel, actually distracted me from having a rich personal connection with Him.
One might also contend that it’s a matter of integrity, or lack thereof, to continue in an church institution when you see harmful practices? If we stay there, Is our integrity compromised for security?
October 5th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Is that ever the truth! More and more I recognize myself being manipulated, as it were, by what I went through, or perceived, as a youth. And I thought I was the only one
Again, you’ve really hit the nail on the head. What are you…some kind of mind-reader? You got one of those plants from Gilligan’s Island growing in your back yard?
-joeb
P.S. Look, sans-parasol…”jodent” sounds suspiciously like rodent, and I’m just not going to put up with that. Don’t make me start posting jokes about how many pills one must take at 52 just to get out of bed.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
Joe, should I count the gin-soaked golden raisins (9 per day) I take for arthritis? Otherwise, a min. of 10 pills every morning. Praise God for ibuprofen and aleve.
October 5th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
It is cultish crap. They all use the same stuff, if you don’t do this you are going to miss it. GOD HATES IT!!
October 6th, 2007 at 8:05 am
Jo-gerble, jo-”ham”-ster, some rodents are cute,
… sans-parasol…. a rarely used word, “sans”. When I was at CoCos on Halsey I asked for sans onions on my hamburger and got extra. I gave a really big tip anyway.
October 6th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
I say no, just so long as you keep them to a max of no more than, say, 27 per day, and you’re not seen chugging them from a brown paper bag
Myself, I take anywhere from 10-18 total pills every day, the amount going up incrementally, depending on how far I ride. Among them are 6 huge, greenish-brown, seaweed-like, horse-pills my wife gives me. She says they’re vitamins, but then again, that’s what they told Barry Bonds when his skull started to grow, and Floyd Landis when he was overheard growling in his sleep…
Amen. Especially after a 3-hour bike ride on a 5-inch wide leather “saddle.” I’m too much of a gentleman to tell you the term cyclists call these torture-devices, but it rhymes with “bass” and ends with “-hatchet.”
I’ve noticed the red 500 mg. generic Tylenols from Wal-Mart have a nice flavor. Kinda sweet.
-joebib
October 6th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
I remember once I was at that same Cocos on Halsey stuffing my face with a patty melt when the whole church was supposed to be going through one of those mandatory, 3-day fasts for Presbytery. One of the waitresses there who went to BT spotted me, and I about had a heart attack, as I just knew she was going to snitch me off.
For the next 2 days, every time the phone rang I thought it was gonna be FD giving me the bad news…just as he had expected all along, I was a sinner
joebib
October 8th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Wow did we come from the same family? I literally went through the same stuff for the same reasons.
October 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Yeah I think I was the waitress.
October 9th, 2007 at 1:08 am
It’s a good thing you’ve hidden your true identity by going by the clever moniker of a-lit, or I might have to think up some serious payback for all the mental anguish I went through.
I think tipping off the Feds that you’ve cut those “Do Not Remove Under Penalty of Law” tags off of your mattress should just about do it
-joebib
October 9th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Didn’t you come into Acapulcos Los Arcos at happy hour also?
October 9th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Sorry, a-lit…doesn’t ring a bell/
When I lived in Portland, Rose’s Cafe was quite the place to eat. Quite a few of the BTers could be seen there on Sunday after morning service. I swear, their cinnamon rolls were one foot across. Now, sadly, I hear they are all closed
However, let me just say that I should be given a share in the profits from The Original Taco House, both the one on 82nd and the one on Powell. I was absolutely crazy for that place. I ate there at least 3 times per week when I lived in PDX. Seriously, that’s no exaggeration. The “El Picador” was my favorite. I used to order it before it was even listed on the menu.
-joeb
P.S. Every time I hit PDX — maybe once per year — the absolute, very first thing I do is go to Taco House for an El Pic. My wife hates them…she just sits there, shaking her head, and watches me eat them
October 9th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Hey Joe bib, Rose’s is still in operation on NW 23rd. Not in the original place off Everett, but down a ways (maybe closer to Lovejoy?). Anyway, I had breakfast with my sister there just a few months ago. And yes, they still offer their cinnamon rolls.
As for the El Pic — I used to eat them when I was much, much younger. Now I figure that it’s probably about 200 grams of fat per plate, and my arteries can’t afford it.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Yeah right Joebib, you admitted to trying to ferment the grape juice. Rose’s was good I always had to share those meals, very large indeed.