Super Surplus…or something
Posted on October 8th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Pastor Hank, Sermons categoryIan, recently wrote in this comment in regard to Frank Damazio's sermon series about the "Surplus Anointing"
So-far the surplus message has been really great! The whole premise of the surplus series is to get the blessing of God in someones life, so that they can be a blessing to those around them (and NO that does not always mean monetarily). I think it could be taken out of context and called "prosperity teaching". But there hasn't been anything of the likes. I think the world is filled with oppressed and poor people and that we are in many ways oppressed and poor ourselves. However, as God brings us out of our depravity and into freedom He wants to use us as instruments to bring His healing and freedom to others. This is what I've been getting out of the surplus messages so far
Ian, I really (and honestly) appreciate you writing in and telling us how you have enjoyed Frank's sermon series on the "Surplus Anointing".
There are a couple of issues I have with this series. First, Frank frequently says "You can't give what you don't have" and makes it sound like we (Christians) are unable to help others until we receive a special anointing (surplus) from God. And it is only then that we will be able to help others.
Personally, I believe that we all received the "Surplus Anointing" when Christ died on the cross for our sins. This is all the Surplus we will ever need. If we decide to wait until we receive "more than enough" to start helping others we will likely never do anything.
Here is a better sermon for you:
Christ gave you all you need through Salvation now go help others. Don't sit and think you aren't good enough, or don't have enough, God's grace makes you good enough and gives you more than you need. When you fully understand "grace" you realize that you are instantly a "Super Surplus Person".
Another problem I have with many of PF's sermons is that he rarely tells you HOW to do the things he wants you to do. Mostly, he just hypes you up on WHAT he wants you to do.
Yes Frank, we all want MORE, we all want to HELP others, we all want SURPLUS, but HOW FRANK…HOW do we get it? Interestingly enough, in this series, he actually tries to tell you . Listen to this.
In order to receive this "Surplus Anointing" Frank wants you to:
-
Stretch
-
Reach
-
Pick up your mantle
-
Breakthrough
-
Ask
-
Dig a New Well
-
Stretch
I am not making any of that up. Seriously. This is Frank's idea of "Biblical Instruction"…generic and random words that sound nice, but don't actually mean anything.
Frank, you want me to "Stretch"…stretch what? And after stretching I am supposed to "Reach"? I guess that makes sense, stretch first that way you won't pull any muscles…thanks.
Then "Pick up my mantle"…what the hell is that? Is it a Surplus mantle? Wait…surplus mantle(?)… now I'm talking crazy. This is getting confusing.
Ok, "Breakthrough"…that sounds nice, I think I'll try that…but wait…what am I breaking through…ok, how about I just "Ask", I can do that. I'll "Ask" for the "Surplus Anointing", but if that doesn't work then what? Uh…lets see… "Dig a New Well"…um Frank….WTF…I live in the city and if I start digging any wells I'm gonna get in trouble…this better be worth it.
In all honesty Ian, can you tell me HOW to get this anointing? It sounds nice, not Biblical, but nice. So how IAN, how do I get this anointing.
By the way, Frank does tell you what an anointing is in his 9/30/07 sermon, I don't have time to get into that, I'm busy looking for a shovel.
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October 8th, 2007 at 1:46 pm
JP, sorry man, I tried to listen to them - I really did. But I couldn’t get past all the “Maybe you’s” in the first 5 minutes of the first sermon - I just kept thinking about Jesus instruction about prayer - not to be someone who likes to fill the air with many words, but to be short and sweet … he sounded like a huckster - circus salesman to me.
Based on the title alone, I did have a couple thoughts … Jesus didn’t need ’surplus’ to feed the 5000 - just a couple fish and loaves - so He gave out of little … likewise the widow who fed Elijah for 3-1/2 years, out of enough oil and grain to make just 1 meal (1 Kings 17:7 to 18:1).
These are not examples of surplus giving, rather, of sacrificial living … the widow had no reason to believe that after making a meal for Elijah that there’d be any lift for her and her son … likewise the people who received of the fishes and loaves - the boy who gave the loaves and fishes to Jesus - gave out of little.
Near the end of John 3, and in Luke 11:13 (?), it says that the Father gives the Holy Spirit without measure for the asking … so why all the mumbo jumbo about how to receive - just ask and trust the Father to give, and when it’s time for you to dispense with the measure of the Spirit that is in you, you’ll have enough to give such that it doesn’t run out … for crying out loud, do we equate the indwelling Holy Spirit with gasoline? How many MPG do we get with the Spirit anyway?
Reminds me - on the way home from mom-in-law’s a few weeks ago, there was a reader board at the Lutheran church that said “Running low on the Spirit? Stop in for a fill up” … I thought about doing just that if only because I wanted to see how they’d “dispense” the Spirit.
You know - IF this sermon series means to imply that we run out of the Spirit sometimes, does that mean gifts, like speaking in tongues, cease to operate if you use it too much and run out of Holy Spirit fuel? The whole topic just seems to be contrived to me, bro.
How’s the new job?
October 8th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
The Sermon series is surplus and the message is about the surplus anointing, but if being a supersurplus is better than just being a surplus why not call the series Supersurplus or the message be about how to recieve the Supersurplus anointing?
Why is the anointing, a noun, being defined by scriptures talking about being anointed?
How come in the message we are told that if we have this anointing WE can destroy the works of the devil based on 1John3:8 ? When in this passage it says that it is Jesus who destroys the works of the devil, not us.
What about the minus people and believers in the bible. The widow with Elijah who was going to use her last resources to make a cake and eat it with her son and then die, but when she was obediant she sacrificed in faith and God met her? What about the widow in the gospels who gave her last two mites as contrasted to the pharisees who gave more and were surplus people but Jesus commended her? What about the Macedonians who gave out of their deep poverty? What about Abraham giving his only son to God on the alter ready to sacrifice him, and Hannah giving her only son Samuel to Eli to be a priest unto God?
The assumption is made that speaking in tounges is always a part of being baptized with the Holy Spirit and is available for all believers, but Paul in 1Cor 12:29,30 is asking a redudant question- “Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak in tonges? Do all interpret?”
It is not about how much you got, because all believers have Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but what are you doing with what you do have.
Follow Jesus and not man, but if you do insist on following a man then follow a man as far as he follows Christ, no futher.
Jeremiah Johnson
October 8th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
I don’t know what “surplus anointing” means. They really need to create a book to define this jargon.
October 8th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I’m sure Frank is working on that book…and by Frank I mean one of his cronies.
October 8th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
I could be wrong, but I think the surplus anointing is anything you give over 10%.
October 8th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Where was that assumption made in this thread, Jeremiah?
October 8th, 2007 at 6:34 pm
It was made in Franks message on the Surplus anointing 9/30, about the baptism of the Holy Spirit
October 8th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
I don’t know why people assume that Jeremiah - that tongues is *the* sign of the baptism … I experienced the word of knowledge/wisdom (which can’t operate without the Holy Spirit) LONG before I ever spoke in tongues … that teaching has caused SO much heart ache for believers …
October 8th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
I too finally got around to listening to the message. For me, it’s very difficult to articulate why it’s “off.” I mean, all the verses are there, and the basic truth that if you are filled with the Spirit, then you will be able to pray for people and resist the devil and all that.
I guess what it comes down to for me is basic desire. Do I desire to have a surplus and look good and have everybody “wow” at my great anointing and have a mantle and all that? When I listen to these types of sermons, that’s what I hear: Don’t you want all this great stuff??? And so my imagination soars about how great I will be. And my will is pumped to go get it from God.
Oh, yeah. God. Frank will deny it, I’m sure, but the end result of these sermons is that God is a means to an end. Maybe Frank doesn’t intend it to come off that way, but truly, so many of his sermons over the past few years have been the same thing in different packaging. Today it’s surplus. Before it was faith, or honor or whatever.
And so people are encouraged to stretch, reach, press, ask, move to new levels, break through, dig wells, whatever — for what? PF gets people excited with stars in their eyes to do the great stuff. But what about the end of Hebrews 11 about those who were alone and tortured. They were commended because they had a different goal in mind: God Himself for His own worth.
October 8th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
I think I found someone who is experiencing this surplus anointing. Check out this link–(if I screw this up just go to fox23.com and type in ORU and look for the lawsuit–its posted on the website, make sure you read the details):
Some Oral Roberts professors are suing and are claiming misuse of funds:
The Roberts’ home has been remodeled 11 times in the past 14 years
Mrs. Roberts spent $39k at one clothing store in less than a year
Daughter used university jet for senior trip to florida and bahamas at a cost of $30k
and there’s the claim of Mrs. Roberts sending text messages to male students in the wee hours of the morning
there is more so please read for yourself
I think they were guest speakers at the Breakthrough(?) conference held at City Bible Church this past year. Maybe they should have them for a Breakout (of jail) conference soon.
October 8th, 2007 at 8:59 pm
guess I forgot to close the link
October 9th, 2007 at 6:07 am
It’s a nice change from black type, mindgames. A stunning blue on my PC.
October 9th, 2007 at 6:59 am
It’s not an assumption, it’s actually what is taught at CBC about the “baptism” of the Holy Spirit. They believe that you MUST speak in tongues as proof of your baptism experience. They believe the baptism is a separate experience outside of the Salvation experience. This seems to be contradictory to the idea that the Holy Spirit is given to all believers. (Ephesians 1:13,14) Or as others pointed out, the obvious rhetorical question by Paul that implies that not everyone has the same gifts. The idea that you need “more” of the Holy Spirit is silly, if we have the same Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, how much more do you need? (Romans 8:11)
There was a long discussion about this on Doctrine Talk recently.
The reason why PF can’t tell you how to get more of the “anointing” is because it is based on flawed theology. He can’t back up his ideas because they are built on things that don’t exist. Trust me, I was in that hamster wheel for decades, and I was never told how to get more anointing.
October 9th, 2007 at 7:45 am
Hey FICM - these 2 scriptures really blessed my understanding of God’s gift of the Holy Spirit:
No limit … just ask the Father for more.
Why, those kinds of scriptures might just put Frank out of business.
October 9th, 2007 at 7:52 am
Thanks, ‘Scrupe! It’s funny how we forget the obvious Scriptures like those two. I’m definitely putting those two in my arsenal for when people start talking nonsense about the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand, I know that the proponents of the CBC way of thinking will use Luke 11:13 to validate their idea that you can get “more” of the Holy Spirit. Then again, we may have finally answered the riddle on how to get more! Just ask!
October 9th, 2007 at 8:40 am
Hmmm … I notice that I wrote “just ask the Father for more” which is of the mindset that He gives a little of the time or hasn’t given me all of it … yet the word “more” appears in Luke 11:13.
On looking more closely at Luke 11:13, FICM, I think the word MORE really means that the Father is ready, even eager to give us the Holy Spirit when we ask - not that He dispenses a little at a time so we have to go back to Him continually with requests for more …
The verse isn’t about giving more of the Holy Spirit, rather, it is a comparison of us human fathers who know how to give good gifts to our kids and our Father who is a much better Father and therefore MORE willing (and able) to give the best gift: the Holy Spirit. The term “more” is used in comparison of the fathering ability of God compared to the fathering ability of men, NOT used concerning the Holy Spirit as if it is dispensed one precious drop at a time …
Ahhh … feels good … yet another weed uprooted and thrown on the burn pile … we’ve got ALL of the Holy Spirit …
October 9th, 2007 at 8:54 am
The concept of anointing was never really explained to the congregation in the WOF church that I attended. The word was thrown around often, mostly in connection with the Pastor (as God’s anointed one). Unless I had consulted my Bible, I would have assumed that ‘anointed’ was a word only connected to Pastors and certain people that had some type of authority based on some hierarchy. Of course, this was in a setting where tongues was considered to be evidence of one’s salvation - at least, the initial evidence. So there was this unspoken, yet highly implied assumption that those who had never spoken in tongues did not have the Holy Spirit and could not have any anointing from the Lord.
In many WOF churches, I think the concept of anointing is used along with other tactics to convince the congregation that the Pastor or leader has some type of authority that they must listen to, or else they are not listening to the Lord. This creates an atmosphere where the congregation assumes they are crippled in some way - and they need the leading, teaching, and prophecies of their Pastor/Leader to become the Christians that God wants them to be. They will accept almost anything he or she says. Not to mention the fact that these leaders can ‘distribute’ gifts and anointing in some way.
I don’t know if anyone agrees, but I think this concept is one of many that are used to control people and make them think they are lower than other believers in some way. The more ‘anointing’ someone has, the more important they present themselves to be. Why do we, as believers, insist on elevating men and demoting God?
October 9th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Of course you didn’t…. this is spfd’s NEW doctrine… you must go back and get on the hamster wheel yet again to get “more annointing”…
October 9th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Reformed Pope, you said “Christ gave you all you need through Salvation now go help others. Don’t sit and think you aren’t good enough, or don’t have enough, God’s grace makes you good enough and gives you more than you need. When you fully understand “grace” you realize that you are instantly a “Super Surplus Person”.”
I don’t believe that the surplus message has to do with sitting there and thinking you aren’t good enough. A main scripture being used in the series is John 10:10 in which Jesus is telling His disciples that “the thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that THEY might have life, and have it to the full.” This scripture and the scriptures preceding are many times used as “salvation” type scriptures. However, if we look at it in context, what is the “THEY” Jesus is referring to? He is referring to people who are a part of His fold, His sheep. People who are already believers! He is saying that there is another measure of life for those who have already found salvation. “Sitting there and feeling bad about yourself” would not be what Jesus is talking about in this scripture. You are RIGHT, salvation is all that is necessary to move out and help people. However many people don’t live in the abundant salvation we are provided with. Life has stolen from them, circumstances have stolen from them, the church, in many ways, has stolen from them…etc… And there is this type of Christianity which is plaquing our churches and cities, it’s a defeated and dull Christianity. And where it flourishes, it is being persecuted more than ever. There are christians all over the world, including people in CBC, who are stuck in mediocrity and the measure of grace and salvation in their lives is lacking. Not to say that it isn’t enough to go out and help people, but a grander revelation of what we have been given and ARE being given, could release us into being able to help ONE more person, TWO more people, and so-forth. I admit, that I myself could step out and receive a fuller level of abundance in my life. Not to say that God wasn’t giving it to me, but that in my own flesh (character/sinfulness) I’ve limited what I have received.
sorry for the poor structure of my comment
Those scriptures talk about how God gives the Spirit, not how we receive it? Could the amount of something in our lives be limited, not by how much we are given, but by how much we choose to recieve? I don’t necessarily agree with all of CBC’s teachings on the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”, just a thought on it.
October 9th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Ian,
Playing games with semantics is not a good recipe for building healthy doctrine. Differentiating giving vs. receiving is not a good strategy for justifying the “more” theology.
Let’s take an every day example. Suppose I bought a tithing book from you on Ebay (for research, I swear!). Now suppose we arrange for me to pay via Paypal. I make the deposit to your Paypal account and as far as I’m concerned the transaction is over. It’s up to you to take that money out of your account, if you wish, and do something with it. You’ve already received it and there is nothing more that I can do to make you put it to use. If you send me an email asking for more, I’m going to tell you off since I’ve already paid you.
How do you think God feels when He’s already deposited the Holy Spirit in our hearts and yet we constantly pester him for further payment? Isn’t He most likely to say that you’ve already received the fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit when you chose to believe?
To continue these word games that imply that you must receive something in order to bring change into your own life and the lives of others is a distraction from simply doing those things that bring change. When I was child, I was told to clean my room. I did not then ask my parents for special powers to clean my room, all that I needed to do the job was already given to me. If I failed to do the job, I had only myself to blame. Too many Christians use this “receiving” mentality as a crutch or even an excuse to put off doing those things they should simply be doing anyways.
Jesus told us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, etc. Yet do we do these things? *first to raise his guilty hand for slacking*
My point is that rather than teaching and leading others to obey the words of Christ, PF spends a ridiculous amount of time on vague instructions regarding a quasi-spiritual experience that has no value in making real change in people’s lives.
October 9th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
I think you just hit the nail on the head.
-joebib
October 9th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Scrupe,
Your description of the ‘paypal account’ that wasn’t being drawn on made me think of 2Peter 1:3&4. “Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that by them you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”
Notice the past tense “has granted” used 2X. So how do we get the divine nature? Read on through verses 5-12. My dear departed brother, Theo Johnson thought that verses 5-12 were a list of the ‘keys to the kingdom’ that Jesus gave to Peter in Matt.16:19. Another little clue to this is found in Luke 11:52, where Jesus describes a ‘key’.
Peace
October 9th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
…Can’t we all just get along? Ian…if you’re gonna stay up to write comments…we better see you in class in the morning! : )
October 10th, 2007 at 6:30 am
Eh, that was FICM
The paypal analogy is too deep to have come from ‘Scrupe. 
October 10th, 2007 at 7:45 am
Ian said:
What scripture was that? Here is one to chew on when you are reaching out for your surplus anointing:
October 10th, 2007 at 8:16 am
i didnt say that silly. that was “joe”
October 10th, 2007 at 8:18 am
My bad…
I do think it is cute how PBC students are on here.
October 10th, 2007 at 9:15 am
“In order to receive this “Surplus Anointing” Frank wants you to:
1. Stretch
2. Reach
3. Pick up your mantle
4. Breakthrough
5. Ask
6. Dig a New Well
7. Stretch
****Sounds to me like a primitive backwoods redneck exercise routine.****
October 10th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Just do not stretch over backwards if you are a girl, or forward if you are a plumber
October 10th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Sure, the Holy Spirit is in us, giving us all that we need. But it’s definitely our decision to take it. “We can’t give what we don’t have.” We’re not perfect. We need more in our lives. I need more joy, love and peace in my life to start with. As we grow in our faith, we are changed more and more into the likeness of Jesus Christ (hopefully).
When we realize we aren’t perfect, we can begin to take more of what God is giving us. It’s like holding out a gift to someone, but them not taking it. God’s still holding it out. And we still have to take it.
I like how Donna Lasit describes the anointing: The Holy Spirit going with and empowering you.
I think the Surplus messages have been great. It’s all about giving to others out of the abundance of what God has given to us.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Matt,
What you are doing is taking the incorruptible gifts of God and replacing them with the corruptible things of this earth when talking about surplus anointing. It is a severe mistake. Why do we need to preach so much on the material things of this world that are here today and tomorrow are gone?
I went to the city church and thought all this stuff is OK until I realized all that talk about material blessings got me looking for my next job, my next check, my next “level”, and then Christ is forced to share the stage with the next “fill in the blank”. The bible calls this covetousness. We are commanded to have our minds on the things above, not on the things below.
Jesus said to pray for food and clothes, and don’t worry about anything more since that’s what the heathen do. Why does the church focus on “provision” so much when Jesus told us not to? I’ll tell you why, covetousness…they covet your tithe. If they get you thinking about provision, and getting more for the “surplus anointing” they get the first 10%.
Like it or not, that’s the truth.
Don’t be one of the many that follow them.
October 10th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
I’m sorry. I think you confused me.
I’m not talking about any earthly things here. I’m talking about spiritual things.
October 11th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Matt, Ian or Anyone…
Can you give me 1 Christ-like attribute to the above statement?
Can you give me one legitimate scripture that makes that statement?
Can you give me one example of a Biblical figure who applied that theory to their life?
October 11th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Personally, I think Jesus with the loaves and fish is a good example. Jesus asked the disciples what they had and they gave Him everything. Once He had it, He multiplied it and there was a huge surplus left over.
I’m quite certain they didn’t waste it, but gave away all the extra to those in need. (No, the Bible doesn’t specifically say that, but I personally doubt that Jesus would tell them to throw it all into a lake.)
If they hadn’t had anything, sure, Jesus could have created something from nothing, but we can’t. We’re not God. At least, I’m not.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:41 am
Matt, Personally, I think that is the exact opposite of the statement “You can’t give what you don’t have”.
In the story of the loaves and fishes Jesus fed 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish…he gave what they didn’t have. If I were to apply that story to my life today I would have to say that it doesn’t matter what you have…if you are willing to give from the little you do have, God can turn it into a huge miracle.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
October 11th, 2007 at 11:58 am
If the little they had was enough, then why did God have to turn it into a huge miracle?
October 11th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
?
Wow…you are really missing the whole point. Did Jesus say to his disciples, “Well, I’d like to feed these people but we can’t give what we don’t have”? No. He said “You give them something to eat”.
His disciples had the “surplus anointing” attitude of “you can’t give what you don’t have” that is why they said to Jesus “”This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”(vs15) to which Jesus replied: “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”(v16) This is where the disciples used their knowledge of the “surplus anointing” and told Jesus, sorry “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,”(v17). They had the mindset that they could not give what they did not have, there was no way in their limited minds that Jesus could feed that many people with such little food. So Jesus, who in all likely was testing their faith said, “Bring them (bread/fish) here to me”. Had the disciples understood that they already had a surplus I imagine they could have fed the 5,000 themselves, however they lacked faith and so Jesus had to take over.
And here is the point:
You, by yourself, are nothing. You can never have enough, you can never have surplus. However, You + God is everything. You + God is all the surplus needed. In my opinion, if you are looking for Surplus then you must still be looking for God.
So, had Jesus said to his disciples, “Before we can feed these people I am going to need you to Stretch yourself, Reach out, Breakthrough, Pick up your mantle, and Dig a new well (which would have taken them well past dinner to accomplish) then you (Matt/Ian/Frank) would be right…however since Jesus said “You give them something to eat,”…you are wrong.
This, of course, is all just my opinion. What say you to that?
October 11th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
I am still looking for God! And I’ll never stop! I don’t believe I’ll ever have all that God wants to give me!
October 12th, 2007 at 12:44 am
Instead of giving us a homework assignment someone should have given FD one. After the first message the other two were repeats. I guess he can’t give what he doesn’t have.
So if I’m hearing him right people with bad marriages, problems with kids, depression, etc, are not super surplus people and cannot give to others. Why are these pastors always putting a bad light on people with problems? Don’t we all have them in one form or another? I learned the hard way that if I wait until I get my crap together so I can help someone else its going to be too late. Those are the times I had to stretch, press, reach, ask, thirst, and dig a new well. The times I thought I didn’t have what it took to meet someone elses need. I didn’t. But when I stepped out in faith and did what I thought God was telling me to do he gave me the strength and the grace to do it.
October 12th, 2007 at 2:00 am
What Jesus said after the feeding of the 5000 is instructive. Jn. 6:26&27.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not becuase you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God has set His seal.”
So what was He talking about? What is the food that endures to eternal life? Maybe John 4:31-34 tells us…Jesus tells the disciples that He has food to eat that they don’t know about. Then He explains, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to accomplish His work.”
The problem I see with the prosperity gospel is that it focuses on getting goodies from God, and then displaying them to show that you are in tight with Jesus. It doesn’t work. If you want to be tight with Jesus, you have to do what He says. John 14:23, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word: and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.” I have met a couple people with a relationship like this, and they changed my life. I’m not too interested in goodies anymore, I want Him.
October 12th, 2007 at 2:29 am
Matt, maybe you should read the story of the feeding of the five thousand again. Try John 6
1-Jesus asked the disciples what they had and they had nothing , they pointed out that a boy had five barley loaves (barley was used as animal feed and only the poor people ate it, so it was a poor insignificant gift from a minus boy) and two fishes.
2-12 small baskets- check the greek- of leftovers (enough perhaps for each disciple to eat after ministering themselves) is not a huge surplus compared to what 5,000 men had eaten, not counting women and children.
3- The disciples did not give the leftovers away to those in need because everyone left full.
This boy’s insignificant gift, given to God, brought about a significant miracle and produced a little surplus. But not a supersurplus where the 5,000 could have left with all of the loaves and fishes that they could carry or sell.
Another side note- the boy came with 5 loaves and two fish and left with no loaves or fish, but he was one of the crowd who ate and got full. But if he would not of given his 5 loaves and 2 fish he could have had, I say at least two meals for himself. No record of Jesus giving anything special to the boy afterwards, no 100 fold return or insider trading tips. Just a cool story to share with his friends about Jesus.
We are all spiritual minus people, like the boy, and Christ is the one with more than enough, so we point other people to Christ and not oursleves. “He must become greater, we must become less.”
“Godliness with contentment is great gain.”
When is the last time you saw adds for a Contentment Conference? Who would show up? How would you market the thing, ” Not satisfied with the little contenment you got? Come to our Contentment Now Conference and get More, More, More. $95 dollars for two nights of contentment like you never imagined. Pastors get in for $85 and businessmen for $25.”
If you have Jesus then you have all that God wants you to give, we just need to know Him more and more and learn of Him and be led by the Spirit.
October 12th, 2007 at 7:49 am
If the Lord dosen’t do it. We are and he can’t get the glory… We are all standing around tooting our own horns.
What I have noticed is, all the talk about man and nothing about what the Lord is doing.
Is the Lord adding to the church daily or, is it man?
Is the Lord feeding the poor and hungry, or is it man?
Is the Lord writting a book, or is man?
Are we intrested in what God can do, or what we can do for God?
What a bunch of sad saps hanging from the end of your pitiful ropes.
October 12th, 2007 at 9:23 am
I’m really confused by this point of view. You seem to be implying that God should be doing everything. It is fine and dandy to give God praise and credit for Salvation, changes in our lives, His love and presence in our lives, etc. But what does God actually do here on earth to fulfill the commands he gave to us? He told us to feed the hungry. He told us to heal the sick. He told us to preach the Gospel. He told us to make disciples.
The Lord can’t add to the Church if no one shares the Gospel.
Unless God creates miracles on a daily basis to feed the poor, it is the workers in the soup kitchens and street missions who are doing this.
Last time I checked, the last thing God actually wrote was the 10 commandments on a tablet of stone. Everyything else has been written by the hand of man.
I know God can create the Universe in a word, but our job on earth isn’t over until He ends it.
Waiting for God to do stuff instead of us just obeying His commands to do stuff will never bring Him glory. If I do the will of the Father, it brings Him glory.
“For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. ”
“for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.”
“In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. ”
“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if people claim to have faith but have no deeds? Can such faith save them? ”
“Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. ”
“Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. ”
“And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. “
October 12th, 2007 at 9:59 am
There’s something real peculiar about comparing the ’surplus’ anointing and Jesus feeing the 5000 on 5 loaves and 2 fishes …
Not long ago, CBC faithful endured a multi-sermon sermon series on giving - the ‘faith harvest’, or whatever it was. Essentially, everyone is challenged by PF to dig deep, give extravagantly, etc. Clearly the source of supply for the bounty of CBC is the bank accounts of men.
But the loaves and fishes - 5 and 2 - not much at all to feed 5000. Jesus gives thanks for it, blesses it, and 5000 are fed from what would have normally been just enough food for 2-3 peopel.
So if the loaves and fishes example is applied to CBC and the offerings there, what if PF passed the plates (or buckets?) and they came back with a total of $5 and change.
PF would give thanks for the fiver and change, and then would hand it back to the congregation to to take what they need from it, whereupon after everyone has taken their need, the buckets would be FULL of leftovers for PF.
There is NO comparing the loaves and fishes and feeding the 5000 to this idea of surplus anointing / giving - the idea behind them both are at opposite ends of the spectrum. One is from the supernatural provision of God out of scant offering - the other giving out of great wealth …
Remember when Jesus observed the widow pitch in her 2 mites? He also observed many who gave out of their wealth - and he was not at all impressed with that. It was the woman who gave all of what little she had that is remembered in scripture.
So, with such Biblical examples of the loaves and fishes and the widow’s mites, where does this surplus anointing / super surplus thing come from?
I listened as far as his scripture reference, Psalm 23 and “thou anoint my head with oil and my cup runneth over” … gee, could oil be symbolic of the Holy Spirit, and the cup of drink a metaphor for the living water that Jesus gives? The Father gives the spirit - I just don’t get how it can be interpreted to mean anything else?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:47 am
Good points, Sam.
-joe
October 14th, 2007 at 9:27 am
FICM said; “for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.”
“In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Great Scripture’s
I’m just saying, yes the Lord uses us, Yes the Lord works though us.
It just seems that there is alot of bragging going on.
If he could talk using a Jack ass or a burning bush I’m sure he can use us no matter who we are.
a lot of what I read here are Christians in competition with each other. trying to prove who is the smartest, most clever, oh so witty.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Where are our rewards? In heaven or have we already received them here from man?
Why don’t we all unite and start praying together for change? For the Lord to expose those who are teaching false doctrine.
I’m all for the power of prayer.
Is there anyone else here that would join in to pray?
The end times are close, these are the very things Jesus warned us about just before he comes.
It has been fun, but don’t you think we have been called to something higher that this?
October 14th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
October 14th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
Speaking of prayer, how many of you took up the burden and are praying for Ozzy Osbourne for salvation? I read this article in the newspaper this morning.
Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne are doing some housecleaning.They are selling art furniture and collectibles from their homes.
A portion of the proceeds will benefit the Sharon Osbourne Colon Cancer Foundation.
Pray! ———maybe the next time we read about him he will be singing praises to the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
October 14th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
According to a new report from CBS News, Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind behind the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, has converted from Islam to Christianity. The news magazine 60 Minutes will air a special report about the Supermax prison where Yousef is being held this weekend …
thought it was interesting. read the entire article here …
October 18th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
I commend you on your comments matt finally after reading such comments osmeone who really knows what its all about>
Praise God my brother Praise God
October 22nd, 2007 at 7:33 pm
you guys just really hate everything, eh?
October 23rd, 2007 at 8:19 am
GlobalC.
No we don’t hate everything. The issues here not about hatred. What we see here is people expressing themselves because of negative experiences, hurt and pain caused by church leadership who have gone so far off the track of what church is supposed to be.
Could be something like this:
Doors of what was once a house of worship where people gathered together under a common banner to seek. honor and come in to the presence of God, for whatever the reasons, have been opened to all sorts of worldly devices.
In some “places” , they have replaced persuing Godliness and holiness with the persuit of power over their people, status among denominational peers and personal accumulation of wealth.
Or kind’a like this:
Worldliness and unholiness in =====God and holiness out.
What’s left behind? A lot of negative experiences, hurt people with spiritual and emotional pain, much of which was brought on by leadreship who have forgotten what a Godly calling is about. ( a servant comes to mind here ).
No! This blog is not a display of hatred. It ia a place where people can share their thoughts and air out their needs to talk and discuss the issues
that are important to them. I think it is a good thing.
Thank You for listening (reading)
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
no, not really.
i just see a lot of people pointing fingers with the motive of making fun at someone else’s expense or turning others against a leader.
and its definitely not out of love.
October 24th, 2007 at 7:46 am
Global:
You know, I think can see now where you might come up with your thinking and comments. I haven’t seen you post until just recently. If I came in on this blog recently too, I think I would perceive the same picture, especially reading postings of the past few days. They are becoming a major turn off. ” A blog divided against itself………..!
In its beginning it was so much fun with good sincere people sharing of thoughts and understanding of other’s need to express themselves.
Now it seems like the muckrakers and dirt slingers and malcontents have pretty much changed the focus of what it used to be about. That’s sad!