Question & Answer Time
Posted on October 17th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others categoryFrom time to time we have people stop by our blog here and ask some basic questions as to who we are and what we are doing. Recently, Scott, made this comment:
Who started this website? I'm just curious. Has City Bible Church become "all about the money"? Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time? How do you know? How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC? Thanks in advance for answering my questions.
Well Scott, here are the answers to your questions:
Who started this website?
Catalyst & Reformed Pope Morton
Has City Bible Church become "all about the money"?
I wouldn't say "ALL about the money", but prosperity (in a modern day American sense of the word) is very important to them.
Does pastor Frank really talk about tithing all the time?
I believe the current ratio is 1 in every 4 sermons is on giving money to the church (not necessarily on "tithing" but certainly on giving money to CBC). Remember, they speak on "Faith Harvest" every November through January, so there is ¼ of the year's sermons right there. Does that qualify as "all the time"?
How do you know?
The sermons are posted online and sadly, I listen to a large number of them.
How many times did you (the creator/creators) attend CBC?
Lets see, I personally attended BT/CBC from 1993-2003 so let me break this down.
10 years of weekly Sunday Morning sermons = 520 Sunday Services
10 years of weekly Sunday Evening sermons, I probably attended every other Sunday = 260 Sunday Evening Services
5 years of weekly Youth Group Sermons = 260 Wednesday Night Services
4 years of Weekly Chapel during High School = 208 Monday or Friday Morning Services
7 years of bi-monthly cell group (formerly Life Group) meetings = 182 small group services.
3 Years of Summer Camp (1 full week and 2 half weeks…I was kicked out halfway through the last 2 years I attended camp) = 30 Camp Services
6 years of Winter Youth Conferences (First as Conquest then as Generation Unleashed) = 54 Conference Services
3 years of Presbytery Services = 20 Prophetic Services
and
10 years of "special" prayer services, conferences, dramatic productions, weddings, etc. = 50 services
For a grand total of 1,584 times that I have attended CBC…that, by the way, is enough times to attend one service every day for almost 4-1/2 years.
I am so embarrassed.
For further research on the subject click here, here, here, here, and here. You should also read all "Faith Harvest" posts, and finish by reading all the posts in the Pastor Hank and Sermons categories.
I hope I have been of some help.
RSS feed for posts
October 17th, 2007 at 11:14 am
It truly is amazing how much of my life I wasted at that church.
October 17th, 2007 at 11:42 am
No kidding. Multiply that by 7 and the Morton Children have wasted multiple lifetimes at that place.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
And here I thought your names were Justin and Johnpaul. What was your mama smokin’ that she named you Catalyst and Reformed Pope?
October 17th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Sorry. I wrote my answer in the other section. To make it easy for Scott, here is my .02:
CBC has an unhealthy emphasis on money, image and other things besides the Lord Himself.
Pastor Frank does not talk about tithing “all the time.” However, he has written a whole year’s worth of blurbs that combine the giving of tithing as conditional to God’s blessings. These are read aloud by the whole congregation in unison before every offering. He has published these blurbs in a book for sale to other pastors with the promise that it will boost their $$ intake.
Correction: The declarations that Frank wrote for the pre-offering pledge may not make God’s blessings conditional on tithing. However, they DO link Scripture and giving in such a way that it seems conditional. Each blurb begins with the words: “As I give in today’s offering…” So you can see how someone may infer that.
In addition, he devotes a month or more per year to preach on finances — tithing and “faith harvest.” And also, he continues the policy that no one may volunteer for the church in any capacity unless they are documented tithers.
I am not one of the website creators, but I know these things because I was a member for 25+ years. I now visit occasionally to see my friends, and sadly, things have not changed.
Does this answer some of your questions?
October 17th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
[…] Read the rest of this great post here […]
October 18th, 2007 at 10:31 am
Let’s not forget that all CBC employees are required to tithe, even though their income is derived from tithing members. This amounts to nothing more than an involuntary pay cut of 10%. Even the Levites weren’t required to tithe, since the tithe of the Israelites was their income. Apparently, PF forgot to read that part of the Bible.
I also spent over a decade in CBC, and because I volunteered in several capacties, I was often there for 3 services on Sunday, in addition to all of the other things that RP mentioned above. Before I left I stopped tithing completely because I realized I spent way more than 10% of my time working at the church for free. (Time = money!) It pains me to think how much better my life might be if I had been using that time to further my education or career, or maybe even talk to girls who were interested in dating someone who was not a youth pastor. (My dating life is just fine now, thank you.)
On a related note, when I mentioned to a pastor that I was struggling to find work and pay my bills, the first words out of his mouth were, “Are you tithing?” I realized I was going to get no help or sympathy so I stopped talking about it. That was one of the many moments where the lights came on and I began to see CBC for what it really was.
The fact that this blog exists after two years is proof enough that the whole point of this is valid. If the blog was just a bunch of silly lies made up in revenge, it wouldn’t last. They (CBC) continue to give the boys material to write about, some of it so ridiculous that it’s hard to believe that people still willingly hoodwink themselves to be a part of their so-called “church”.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Speaking of which…Frank wrote a new prayer which he talks about in his latest sermon. He titled this prayer…honestly…I don’t know if I can really write this…I’m laughing so hard right now…ok…he titled it:
“The Surplus People Stretchabily Prayer”
yup, the Surplus People Stretchabily Prayer…hysterical. Is he also writing a pilot for a saturday morning cartoon? Sometimes, I just love Frank so much…he makes writing this blog a joy.
Thank you Frank, I know you did that one for me.
October 18th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Your commentary brought this to mind:
One of the comments (a real redflag back then) I remember most was someone quite familiar with his former church in Eugene, Or. said,”Frank has some very unique was of raising money.” Didn’t mean a whole lot thruoghout that conversation, but the light went on. Shortly after his arrival to cbc and was set in as the “king-pastor” it became apparent that person knew him well.
Wasn’t long before his own fundraising programs began to unfold. “Faith Harvest” was born. During one of his “teachings” on giving, giving, giving…., he introduced his version of the “mandatory tithe.” He said from the pulpit, and I quote, “If you do not tithe here, maybe you should go somewhere else”
I couldn’t believe he could have the audasity(sp) to make such a statement. What a great message to send to the flock, especially those struggling financally or who were not members of that then forming rich man’s club. For me that was the second red fiag. That one finally got me looking at what was most important to the leadership there. It didn’t take me much more time to make my final exit. After 25yrs I shook the dust of that place off my sandels and walked away into my freedom without looking back.
I guess I am just a simple person. The simple gospel is good enough for me.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:48 pm
I have a really tough question for you about the CBC leaders. Do you think they were boxers or briefs?
October 21st, 2007 at 8:56 pm
BT Beauty…. what about Thongs??
October 22nd, 2007 at 5:46 am
Eh, be they folders or wadders?
October 22nd, 2007 at 6:53 am
“A wrong is done to the word of God when in the same sermon an equal or a longer time is devoted to [fund-raising] indulgences than to God’s word.”
“They are the enemies of Christ and of the people who, on account of the preaching of [fund-raising] indulgences, bid the word of God be silent in other churches.”
“…if the granting of pardons, which is an affair of little importance, is celebrated with a single bell, with single processions and ceremonies, then the Gospel, which is the most important thing, should be preached with the accompaniment of a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.”
source: Martin Luther, church reformer, The Ninety-Five Theses, 1517; theses nos. 54, 55, 53 quoted from Documents of the Christian Church, ed., Henry Bettenson, Oxford Universtiy Press, p. 189
October 22nd, 2007 at 7:26 am
CBC leadership in thongs? The thought of that is like the thought of my parents having sex…eeeeewwwwwww!
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:18 am
Excellent piece of research, Dave.
Luther definitely is the most quotable of the Reformers. Sometimes reading Calvin, Zwingli, the later Puritans like Owen, and even Whitefield and Wesley, one gets the feeling these guys are all but dead inside, and are in need of an immediate transfusion before they keel over.
But not with Luther. Sometimes outrageous, but never boring, you know the Word just absolutely burned within him, and even if you don’t agree with what he says, you know for sure he was prepared to die for what he believed. I love the guy.
-joebib
October 23rd, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Joebib, I always enjoy your contributions, but I just gagged over Calvin described as “all but dead inside.” Read the following from the Institutes (Bk.1,ch.2):
“For until men recognize that they owe everything to God, that they are nourished by his fatherly care, that he is the Author of their every good, that they should seek nothing beyond him–they will never yield him willing service. Nay, unless they establish their complete happiness in him, they will never give themselves truly and sincerely to him.”
John Piper did not invent Christian hedonism!
I love the guy.
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:14 pm
October 31 is Reformation Day… Celebrating Martin Luther… Growing up Lutheran.. note was made of it and we always sang on that ” Sunday”…
A Mighty Fortress Is Our God
Text: Martin Luther Trans. by Frederick H. Hedge
Music: Martin Luther Harmony from The New Hymnal for American Youth
Tune: EIN’ FESTE BURG, Meter: 87.87.66.667
——————————————————————————–
1. A mighty fortress is our God,
a bulwark never failing;
our helper he amid the flood
of mortal ills prevaling.
For still our ancient foe
doth seek to work us woe;
his craft and power are great,
and armed with cruel hate,
on earth is not his equal.
2. Did we in our own strength confide,
our striving would be losing,
were not the right man on our side,
the man of God’s own choosing.
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is he;
Lord Sabbaoth, his name,
from age to age the same,
and he must win the battle.
3. And though this world, with devils filled,
should threaten to undo us,
we will not fear, for God hath willed
his truth to triumph through us.
The Prince of Darkness grim,
we tremble not for him;
his rage we can endure,
for lo, his doom is sure;
one little word shall fell him.
4. That word above all earthly powers,
no thanks to them, abideth;
the Spirit and the gifts are ours,
thru him who with us sideth.
Let goods and kindred go,
this mortal life also;
the body they may kill;
God’s truth abideth still;
his kingdom is forever.
October 23rd, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Reformed Pope, Unscrupulous man, samaritan, Joe bib, Mark444 is this all the same person. Not trying to be smart alec but writings are the same?
October 23rd, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Please, I am way better than those all those other guys…if you can’t tell us apart, leave. I’m serious.
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Sorry to offend you. I will leave
October 24th, 2007 at 2:13 am
My thoughts, exactly. What a maroon.
(Opening door…)
“Out you go….”
-joePope
October 24th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
And don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.
October 24th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Just to make this clear…
My name is Johnpaul Morton. I only post as Reformed Pope.
I am not any of those other guys.
October 25th, 2007 at 3:04 am
First of all, let me commend you on your insight in regard to my contributions. I just wish all the other unenlightened folks on this blog had your good taste.
Now, in regard to Jean Cauvin, aka John Calvin — and I’m staring at my well-worn copy of his Institutes as we speak (type) — there is no doubt he has many wonderful things to say, and I refer to his commentaries often. And, there’s no denying he was possessed of an extremely powerful mind, and was a scholar second to none.
It’s just that when he does say something, I envision it’s being spoken in a trance-like monotone, with his eyes only half open, dryly droning on and on and on. What those with ADHD call “ponderous drivel.”
Now, in regard to the Squire of Wittenberg, when you read his stuff, it seems his teeth are clenched in anger, and his brow is dripping sweat. Or, that he is giddy with joy and emotion, writing with tear-filled eyes.
I see him as an excited Rottweiler, pulling furiously at his chain, while I picture Calvin as a proper French Poodle, nose in air sniffing snobbishly.
That’s all I’m sayin.
Hey, I just think it’s cool that there’s someone else out there who has read Calvin. Which, if more posters did, we’d have a heck of a lot less…well….
Oh, never mind
-joebib
October 25th, 2007 at 4:05 am
Thanks for the much-needed clarification, Johnpaul.
For you to be included in the company of worthies like Sam, ‘Scrupe, and Mark (John) 444 is quite an honor.
In fact, S-UM-J444 is my personal hero, inasmuch as he is, by my count, the “C-BUS-C Posting Champion” with over 1300 insightful and thought-provoking comments — and counting. I discount “Anonymous,” as I assume he/she is several posters combined.
The question begs itself — where does he get the time? Don’t you think he merits one of those plastic Little-League trophies, or maybe a nice red ribbon?
Now that I think of it, would it be too much to ask for the blog moderators to hop on down to Freddies (do they still call it that?) and buy a huge white cardboard sheet, upon which every poster’s name would be recorded?
Colored stars could then be awarded for wittiest posts, most insulting posts, most naive poster, most blog IDs, most Scripture references in a post, most posts with pleas for forgiveness, most posts with profanity, and so on. The winners in each catagory could be given, oh I dunno…
– Free passes to GU gatherings,
– JS-look-alike spiked toupees, complete with matching glasses,
– Greyhound bus tickets (one-way) to MFI conferences,
– CDs of the Surplus Anointing Series — with appropriate “Parental Advisory” labels,
– “Do Not Tithe For One Month” coupons (self-dissolving upon handling),
– Wallet-sized snapshots of their favorite Senior Pastor.
Anything would be nice. Wadya think? All in favor?…I do believe the “ayes” have it.
(Back on topic)
But for anyone to confuse we two, RP — which, BTW, is not only a compliment to me, but an insult you — is just plain comical. You’re much better looking
All I can say is that there are apparently people around here who post before having their coffee.
-joebib
October 25th, 2007 at 5:43 am
Joebub, did yo mama drop yo on yo head? Insightful? Don’tcha mean inciteful? 1300? Mang, I really needa get a life!
To be true, the people I love and admire, are the seekers and questioners - who dare to put feet under their convictions and leave a church that is in error, and to seek out a fellowship where there is love, honor, respect, equality … people who are hungry for the Lord … those are people I want to be around. Conversely, the people who irritate me the most, are those who would attempt to dissuade seekers from pressing on or try to knock them off their path to Christ. Lord knows we’ve seen plenty of folks come to this blog with criticism and with the intent of shutting it down.
For JohnPaul and Justin, though this be a parody blog, countless important issues have been discussed here, errant doctrine exposed, the power-hungry and greedy have been exposed, brothers and sisters who once thought they were alone in what happened to them at an MFI church have been brought together where there has been affirmation, validation, empathy, perhaps even some healing.
I have to believe that they will be found faithful - not hiding their convictions to fit in with the masses, thereby being luke-warm, but who because they acted upon their convictions, helped many brothers and sisters shake off the bonds of religious slavery, and simply walk with the Lord. Oh, and they had fun while doing it.
As the 2 boys often say: “Good Times”. Yes, indeed.
October 25th, 2007 at 7:17 am
Or…we are here to have a good laugh…either way, should be a good time.
Can I go as Judah Smith for halloween? This is way to much fun.
October 25th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
RP asked:
Yeah, but Halloween where? Gen Church? (Halloween IS on a Wed night) No one else would know who you were, even if you wore a big sign.
October 25th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Joebib,
I can’t take too much credit for having read Calvin as I’m just starting the Institutes. But say, Luther sounds great! What would be your recommended short list of Luther must-reads? Should I bum off my mom her requested Mother’s Day present “The Bondage of the Will”?
October 26th, 2007 at 1:49 am
Getting Reformed–
You can find most of Luther’s major works here:
http://www.godrules.net/library/luther/luther.htm
I enjoy most all of his letters, of which there are about 500, or so, extant. Also, his Preface to Romans, which is considered a classic, is excellent, “the Babylonian Captivity Of The Church,” the Larger Catechism and Table Talk. His sermons are also good, and provide a wealth of biblical material for study.
Alright, I can’t resist…check out what he says here, in his first known letter:
Not a bad motto. He goes on…
Profound stuff, coming from someone who was only 23 years old when he wrote it.
Later, in answer to Pope Leo X’s order to recant his previous statements, notice Luther’s attitude in responding to the man who had the power to sentence him to death — which he later did:
[Hey Reformed Pope…guess he forgot that “touch not the Lord’s anointed” part, eh?
]
Can you imagine someone saying this to the SP of an IC? :O Makes some of the stuff we post around here seem pretty lame, doesn’t it?
One last quote:
:) You gotta love this guy.
Anyway, GetRef, be advised that some of his stuff is a bit intimidating to get through, depending on who did the translating from the German, as some of it comes out rather wooden in English. You may find it helpful to have Oxford’s Dictionary nearby, Unabridged Edition, of course — which no student should be without — oughta run you only about a thousand bucks.
And, yes, bum “The Bondage of the Will” (under $10 at Amazon) off your mom.
-joe
October 26th, 2007 at 5:34 am
Joe,
When I first moved from Seattle to the midwest, I became friends with the pastor of the Lutheran church here, who is spirit-filled and preached about the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts to his congregation, who threatened him over it.
He often preached what his congregation thought was radical, even blasphemous and a few times said they were starting to reach for their brick-bats, torches and pitchforks, when he cited the source as Luther and they had to back down.
Never could understand how he remained there - he was a genuine brother and that was an awfully faithless / religious church.
Sam
October 27th, 2007 at 3:48 am
Yeah, I think so, and just to make sure you do…”say hello to my lil frien”
Perhaps “inciteful” would be more accurate — as well as to the point — as I recall feeling a bit incited a time or two at some of your posts before I got to know where you were coming from
One of my profs at PBC was Bill Scheidler, also an Elder at BT, and he had come out of the Lutheran Church, MS. He still had an old picture of him from his seminary days, studying at his desk, decked out in full beard, with cigarette and beer in hand.
You’d have to have known the guy to appreciate the humor in that. LOL
I’ve often wondered at what Luther and Wesley would feel at what the Lutherans and Methodists have become. Probably turning over in their graves, and that at a fairly high rate of speed.
-joebib
October 30th, 2007 at 10:48 am
Aside from the topic, have you guys heard about the recent news about CBC? Heard that they are going into different direction with City Christian Publishing. Rich Brott was oust. Not too sure whether they are closing the department but reliable news that publishing’s staffs were also being lay off.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
smt, Thank you for sharing about City Publishing, Your post inspired me to tell a possibly related story from my past. I have posted it as an article on the blog. Blessings to you.
November 20th, 2007 at 12:23 am
I attended Bible Temple from the age of 5 until I graduate High School in 1976. . . Sunday Mornings. . Sunday Nights. . Thursday Nights. . Youth Nights. . Youth Camp. . Family Camp. . Home Groups. . how many hours do you think that adds up to?
I have many good memories of my childhood at BT and unfortunately many painful memories as I never conformed to the “Bible Temple” mold of what a Christian young person should be. I was harrassed by the youth leader at that time for not being what he thought I should be.
I left and never looked back. . my parents eventually left and have had a fulfilling christian life at a smaller church where they are truly appreciated for who they are.
I didn’t serve the Lord for many years after BT. . . rediscovered my relationship with the Lord in my 40s. It pains me to hear what CBC has become but frankly it doesn’t surprise me because I know PF and many of the other leaders of CBC from way back.
I am glad I stumbled upon this blog . . I will pray for those left at CBC and hope that one day their chains will be broken and find real freedom in Christ. I have forgiven those who hurt me. . .life is too short to be angry and some humans are not worth that kind of pain.
Blessings to you. . I think people need to hear the honest truth
November 21st, 2007 at 8:43 am
kmarie, thank you for sharing part of your story with us; we hurt with you and the abuse that you received esp. from your youth pastor; i’m very thankful to hear that you did not throw the baby out with the dirty bath water but came back to find Jesus a kind person; i hope that we hear from you again because i agree with you that “people need to hear the honest truth!” many blessings to you! - David
November 21st, 2007 at 8:56 am
RP wrote: …for a grand total of 1,584 times that I have attended CBC…that, by the way, is enough times to attend one service every day for almost 4-1/2 years.
RP, thanks for the calculations; they help us get and perspective!
i have come to call the obsession of certain local churches with meetings the institutional disease of “Meetingitis.”