A challenge for PBC…and Ben Windle
Posted on November 3rd, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Pastor Hank, Sermons categoryI want to revisit this, even though I already posted it once before…this time though, I'd like to issue another challenge with it. This challenge is for all PBC students who read this blog (and for Ben Windle).
Can any of you explain to me how Frank can get away with telling his congregation that Surplus is a good Bible word that means God wants us to have more than enough? Please take into consideration that when I run a Bible Word Search for "Surplus" I can't find any mention of the word in the NIV or the NKJV, and when I find mention of it in the NASB it is only in the following story from Mark 12:41-44:
The Widow's Mite
41And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums.
42A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.
43Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury;
44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on."
Please answer these question:
1. Does this scripture, with the word "Surplus" in it, support Frank Damazio's sermon series titled "Surplus"?
2. Does this scripture teach the opposite of what SPFD is teaching in his Surplus series?
3. What should you do about it?
Any good Bible College Student (or youth pastor) should be able to answer those questions…after all we are all searching for the truth….right? Wouldn't it be safer to say that Surplus is a Frank Damazio word that he has attached to the Bible to make it sound more believable?
Please help me understand how this all works. Thanks.
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November 3rd, 2007 at 7:05 pm
I’m pretty sure most PBC students are so far above this blog they won’t even comment. But who knows; perhaps there are a few going through theological puberty who just won’t be able to resist your taunting.
November 4th, 2007 at 6:43 am
First of all, this blog has been built on the support of PBC readers/commenter’s…please do not fool yourself any longer.
Second, by “taunting” you must mean “conclusively pointing out the errors of the head pastor at City Bible Church (that would be Frank Damazio for our new readers)” at which point you must be willing to praise any good Bible College student for their earnest search for truth.
Third, You couldn’t resist…
And finally (and seriously), As much as you may not like me or my demeanor, you must be willing to admit that I, at the very least, raise a valid point…is there a good counterpoint??? We won’t know unless someone steps up to the plate…come on Mr. Windle, sharpen your laptop and start commenting…
November 4th, 2007 at 7:58 am
JP, I’m surprised at you. Of course “surplus” is in the Bible - you just need to look up the synonyms for it. Here’s a Biblical example of surplus:
November 4th, 2007 at 11:05 am
If nobody answers these amazing and deep questions there will be no more fuel to feed this fire and a new hobby may be sought out by the webmaster.
November 4th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
For some reason this reminds me of a little jingle by Benjamin Franklin:
“If you wou’d not be forgotton
As soon as you are dead and rotten
Either write things worth the reading
Or do things worth the writing.
November 5th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
I think it was St. Francis that said, “there is no point in walking somewhere to preach if your walking isn’t your preaching.”
I found the CBC yearly financial report quite interesting…..
Income: $11,382,482
Spent: $11,741,788
Spent $359,306 more than they had.
Staff salaries & benefits: $5,946,338! A bit more than 52% of the total.
This is the guy preaching on “surplus”?!!!!
Of course there is no mention of individual salaries, or even how many people are on staff. Pretty slick.
Comments? I’m going to sign off for awhile, my stomach is upset….
November 5th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
If anybody answers the simple and obvious questions there will be no more fuel to feed the CBC fire and a new hobby may be sought out by the Senior Pastor.
November 6th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Any way we can get a copy of this online? The web site doesn’t provide it as far as I can tell, you have to show up and get one in the lobby. (Not an option for me.)
I started to write a long comment breaking down the expenses and how much each person had to tithe, etc. Then I remembered that some of the income & expenses were related to the school and PBC. Without knowing how much money actually came from tithes, the exercise seemed pointless. Does the financial statement actually break down the income and expenses by category? Are the schools included in these figures, or is it just the church?
November 6th, 2007 at 8:50 am
The last time I saw one of these printed statements (a couple of years ago), it was general in the extreme. It was not a financial statement, but a glossy ad for the church with a few numbers printed here and there. At the time I figured I would probably need a warrant to get a true statement.
November 6th, 2007 at 9:36 am
dumb question perhaps.. but who is ben windle?
November 6th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
He’s a “generation pastor” at the 217 campus.
November 6th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
I’ll post the numbers I have.
There are 3 ‘pie charts’ with some info also.
CBC Support and Revenue; Total=$11,382,482
Tuition and Educational Fees=$2,594,816
Other temporarily Restricted income=$842,026
Interest Income=$17383
Other Income=$124,643
General Support and Revenue=$7,803,614
CBC Expenses; Total=$11,741,788
Interest Expense=$639,808
Operational Expense=$4,527,659
Amortization and Depreciation Expense=$627,983
Staff Compensation, Benefits and Other Personnel Costs=$5946,338
Other Giving (included in General Support and Temporarily Restricted Revenues Above.) = $1,687,741
Mission Support Revenue=$691,266
Faith Harvest=$623,506
Taking Church to the people=$372,969
There are pictures of 61 people on the back with names and position titles.
Teachers at the the schools don’t appear to be listed.
Of course individual salaries are not listed….
Hope this helps! :0
November 6th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Who’s Ben Windle? Let me tell you a little bit about Ben Windle
Author, Pastor, Itinerate Preacher…sounds like he is the perfect guy to answer a few of my simple questions. What do you say Ben?
November 7th, 2007 at 8:18 am
Hmmm, $5.9M / 61 people = $96.7K each. Doesn’t that seem rather high? But that is the average, and not the median. I’m guessing the median salary is closer to $50k a year. Figuring in the fact that CBC employees lose 10% right off, that’s more like $45k/year. Which means there’s a group of elite few who bring up that average by being paid A LOT MORE. Now, I realize benefits cost money so you can tack on another 10k or 20k each, but doesn’t it seem like someone must be getting paid a lot here? I wonder who that is?
Also, 61 people. Sixty one. That’s 8 more than the roster of a pro football team. More people than will fit on an average church bus. That’s a staff member for every 30 people or so. Even for a “large” church this seems a bit excessive. But what is interesting is who is getting laid off lately: publishing staff! Which is really weird considering that book sales are probably bringing a big chunk of change for PF.
November 7th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Let’s check out CBSchool teacher’s saleries. This is evry close in accuracy.
Fulltime (anywhere from 8hrs. to 16hrs a day, sometimes 6 days a week)
$27,000 to $30,000/yr
-10% + for mandatory Tithes and other
-15% additional cost to cover their minimal health insurance
_____________________________________________________
Not Very Much: for one of the greatest ministries of the church
Compare that to the “higher-up” or the “low-down”leadership.
November 7th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Where’s the total showing how much CBC gave away last year…you know, to orphans in Uganda and stuff?
November 7th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
I honestly cannot see any specific numbers like that. My best guess is that they gave away what they received for ‘Mission Support Revenue’. $691,266.
They list missionaries sent out; Eugene and Joy Greco to Spain, Royce and Elizabeth Iverson to Uganda, and Joel and Kelly Kaylor to Japan.
No $$ amounts are shown as support for them.
It also mentions Ed and Heather Schefter were sent to plant a church in New York City.
I chuckled at Anna’s comment about needing a warrant to get any info…pretty likely true!
November 7th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
If you get tired of my comments about the “City Bible Church Annual Report 2007″, just tell me to shut up.
One more thing, the amount of debt the church owes IS NOT LISTED!
the only hint you get about it is the “interest expense”….$639,808.
Somehow I don’t think this report would pass a high school accounting class sniff test.
November 10th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Kinda late to the party here, but if $639,808 is the interest they paid, and the rate of interest they were paying was at 6.0% annually. It would mean they are paying interest on 10.6 million dollars. If the rate was 7% then that would mean they owe 9.1 million dollars. Not exactly ground breaking, but I remember hearing before “Forward Together” (which seems like it’s turning into “Backwards Alone”) anyhow, that they only had 7 years of mortgage payments left. Part of “Forward Together” was to pay off that debt. Apparently that hasn’t happened if they still owe in the 10 mil ballpark has it? On top of that I’ve heard they don’t even own the Vancouver Campus, they are just using it on a lease/option basis, and have the option to purchase it in 4 or 5 years or something like that. Imagine pouring 10 million dollars into a building you don’t own.
November 10th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
14311 SE Mill Plain Blvd. Vancouver, WA 98684, The address of the Vancouver Campus for City Bible is owned by KEMFOUND LLC, an Oregon Corporation. KEMFOUND LLC is owned by Thomas J Kemper. I heard they (CBC) spent 10 million dollars renovating this building. The interesting part is that it was sold to Kemfound LLC for 4.8 million the previous year. Talk about good tenants. Does this seem like a bad business decision or am I missing something?
November 11th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
As the song says: I can clearly now the rain is gone. I get it now after posting
how frank came to the farm community in Caldwell and asked -got over
a $10,000 pledge from these little people —if you could see the town and
the migrant community you would be sick like we were.
Its all starting to make sense now –run it like a business but not when the
dollar amounts are asked for in business financial statesments.
Reminds me of Enron when Bethany McClean of Fortune Magazine
asked Jeff Skillings CEO a simple question on their financial reports:
So How Does Enron Make their Money?
One thing led to another and before you knew it a Senate Hearing was in
in order.
Its all Smoke & Mirrors and they don’t think the rest of us can add or ask
questions.
So if you’re so into business Frank why did you go to a poor community
who could use your help –the pastor just got out of the hospital from
a critical condition to top it off.
Real businesses have to answer to their shareholders –which in this case is your congregation.
Enron has simmered down its time for Bethany McClean come & do a story on
you! CBC can you say mark to market accounting?
November 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Sola Fide Sola Gratia…thank you for your info…can you tell us where you got your information? Thanks!