16 Comments To This Post

1. Brian K said:    
   November 7th, 2007 at 3:08 pm

   yeah, I saw this come up on Fark.com the other day.

   I clicked into the comments (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=3186314) just to see what a non-religious forum had to say. Actually I was kinda surprised.

   To save a bunch of scrolling, here’s a few I thought were interesting/funny:

   There are few things I find more hypocritical than “prosperity gospel”.

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   How rich is TOO rich? like.. are we talking a 6 figure salary here or what?

   If your life is about making/having money or things, then you are doing it wrong.

   
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   Ya hit it on the nail. It was exactly what I’ve learned in high school, and then realized that it was not really the Gospel that Jesus spoke about. It was when my profs at my alma mater pointed me to the practices of the Early Church

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   The early Christian church was home to a bunch of socialists. It was awesome. That died out though as the church leaders gained more power.

   
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   The prosperity gospel falls into the trap of telling people to love Jesus because he will make you rich instead of loving Jesus becuase Jesus loves you.

   I think this is where the Religious Right comes from.

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   And once again tithing is 10% off the top. That’s gross income, not net. Please people, don’t force us to audit.

   
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   But just in case one person reads this with the right mind, not all churches run like this. My church is nearly a mega church with multiple locations, HD projection screens, and dozens of people on staff. A former big 5 CPA auditor oversees our finances and I have no doubt that we pay our staffers less than what they’d earn on the “outside.”

   Easily a third of our budget goes to external programs. I bawled like a baby after watching our church present a check to a crisis pregnancy center that bought them an entire 4D ultrasound machine. I’m pretty far from a sign-waving, blood-throwing, mouth-foaming anti-abortion activist, but it was really cool to see that some of my money was gonna give some knocked up girls a chance to make a more informed choice.

   —————–

   “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:24)
   

   Actually the “eye of a needle” was a special gate that had a low opening intended to only allow entry to short animals, specifically sheep (a economic mainstay of that regional agrarian society) and block taller animals (i.e. camels). So it was a livestock handling device that would have been well known to Jesus contemporary listeners. A tall animal such as a camel or donkey could pass through the “eye of a needle” if it would get down on its knees.
   It is often suggested by Bible scholars that what Jesus was suggesting was that the rich would need to “get down on their knees” to enter The Kingdom of Heaven. Many presuppose that this would be something difficult for a prideful wealthy person to accept and would be well received by the primarily poor followers of Jesus at that time.

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   Just to confirm my suspicions I did a little research… Sen. Grassley is a member of a group called The Family which, among other things, organizes the National Prayer Breakfast. So one christian sect is using government power to go after other christian sects. Wow, this has never happened before…

   /oh wait, it’s been happening for 2K years

   —————–

   I was going to sign in and tell them they were all bitter, but then I remembered I was at the wrong site.

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2. Reformed Pope said:    
   November 7th, 2007 at 3:14 pm

   This is so much fun. Where do we send our letters?

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3. whatHEsaid said:    
   November 7th, 2007 at 3:42 pm

   How about video clips of a certain someone asking for $$$ to “retire the debt” on the Rocky Butte campus?:)

   We could all gather our info and have a “Forward Together” campaign…forward it to the Senate and IRS.

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4. Pam Hogeweide said:    
   November 7th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

   i see you guys haven’t lost your snarky edginess around here. fabulous to see you boys still hacking away.

   and this story, for real? i gotta check this out and spread the word. can you imagine the implications if churches lose their tax-exempt status? I’m not sure if that’s a positive or negative in general, but for sure it sucks that religion hucksters f*ck it up for good and honest clergy. Argh. Sorry, not even back on your site for a minute and I’m already swearing.

   You guys bring out the f bomb in me, and for that, I thank you.

   see ya around the blogosphere. I’ll try to stop by more often. Even though I’m not a megachurch refugee or a CBC survivor. I consider myself a recovering evangelical.

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5. Reformed Pope said:    
   November 7th, 2007 at 5:11 pm

   Pam, its so good to hear from you…even though we have to sensor your comments.

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6. anna said:    
   November 8th, 2007 at 9:53 am

   um, RP… that would be censor — didn’t your mama teach you to spell?

   Anyway, I’m actually surprised that ORU is not being investigated, considering the recent questions about their spending and fundraising. Makes one wonder if SPFD received training in more than a Master’s there.

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7. anna said:    
   November 8th, 2007 at 9:56 am

   edit: apologies to your mama. I’m sure she taught you fine… you were probably flicking boogers at catalyst and not listening.

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8. FICM said:    
   November 9th, 2007 at 7:16 am

   I saw another news story about this today, and another interesting factoid dropped out:

   The luxurious ways of some of America’s top evangelists have come under scrutiny on various fronts recently. Iowa Sen. Chuck Grassley announced a Senate investigation this week into whether six celebrity preachers violated their organizations’ tax-exempt status by living lavishly on the backs of small donors.

   The Robertses are not among the six. But those targeted include three members of the ORU Board of Regents: Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn.

   http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/oral_roberts_spending;_ylt=AuTgvmV2Yrc0xQpq31chgjADW7oF

   So the investigations of ORU, the Roberts’, and these mega-church preachers are all intertwined! Who knew?

   This does not bode well for churches on the “prosperity” band-wagon. They could be next on the investigation list.

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9. At Least I'm Free said:    
   November 9th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

   So when do they get around to the National Prayer Center and whats been going
   on up there since its inception. Just hope he’s not on that committee as well.

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10. No longer afraid said:    
    November 9th, 2007 at 10:22 pm

    What about a pastor in Boise who lives in a certain 1.4 million dollar house.
    Sounds out of touch with his congregation? Just a bit –of course you can
    always lay off your hard working staff members to make ends meet.
    Oh yea –you just did that. Hope your loans are not going to default
    these days with rising interest rates.

    We’re onto you boys and nows your time to come out of the dark –that is
    the IRS light.

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11. North by Northwest said:    
    November 9th, 2007 at 10:26 pm

    North By Northwest wants to know why your precious Frank just came down here
    recently and begged borrowed and ??? money for a grand new cause–
    something about a dream of reaching–getting–having $$1,000,000.00
    for what the attendees at the meeting weren’t quite sure what for.

    Ok picturing Dr.Evil and his attempt to hold the world hostage for
    one million……dollars$$

    Thanks for the import but no thanks. We understand perfectly now
    how this blog came about and commend you for it! More to be said later………

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12. Capital-Cult -Clone said:    
    November 9th, 2007 at 10:46 pm

    What is wrong with ORU? We see nothing unusual whatsoever with the
    Roberts –of course we are used to the same exact behavior here in
    Idaho.

    We’re quite content with leaders being treated like ‘The Royal Family’–
    after all they’re special–or think they are.
    We give standing ovations for buildings never built—offerings for
    disaster relief that never leaves the city —watch them drive
    luxury cars so we can feel good–give till it hurts–make excuses
    for not paying bills locally–watch our pastors take their extended
    families to Hawaii –Coloroado and all over the world actually
    and feel happy that we got to give to ‘the fund’

    Of course they should wear designer apparel and never have to shop
    at a Target –they are annointed and their kids are and their kids
    spouses and other family members. We don’t mind buying our
    clothes at St. Vincents –any minute now our lives will look just like
    Ken and Connie’s.

    Of course people here are starting to lose their houses –but no problem
    we live to serve–our first family that is–they’re special and up above
    all of us –and everyone we know.
    That is they tell us that on a weekly basis. They’re special!

    So what if our numbers go down and the debt goes up.
    Hey it worked for ORU all these years–why not us? If all else fails
    Frank can bail us out.

    So whats all the fuss about?

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13. Reformed Pope said:    
    November 10th, 2007 at 8:08 am

    North By Northwest wants to know why your precious Frank just came down here
    recently and begged borrowed and ??? money for a grand new cause–
    something about a dream of reaching–getting–having $$1,000,000.00
    for what the attendees at the meeting weren’t quite sure what for.

    While I haven’t listened to the sermon yet, I would guess by it’s title that we’ve already blogged about it here, here, & here.

    The sermon NxNW is refering to is Windows preached at the Capital Christian Center a few weeks ago…I can’t wait to hear it.

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14. De-Tox Church Group said:    
    November 10th, 2007 at 8:45 pm

    What NxNW is referring to was not the Windows sermon preached at
    CCC cult–gee sorry we missed it! (do you have a link to that?)

    This foray into million-dollar fund raiser greatness happened at the
    sister-church (not by their choosing of course) Family Worship something located in a little farming community in Idaho -where the income level is middle to low –think lots of migrant workers.

    Instead of bringing them an offering or some help from the BIG CITY
    CHURCH - which should have been the case –he was there to share the dream. His dream that is.

    Rumor has it that little split off church –pledged over $10,000.00 of their hard earned money –not to help them build a church building - not to buy a high tech sound system to record these sermons -which they don’t have yet.
    Not to further the gospel. And not to help the poor in the community.
    No!! They get the priveledge to be a part of ‘Frank’s Milliondollar Campaign’
    When we asked those present ‘now what exactly is that money going for?’
    They didn’t really know! But by golly they get to be part of the dream.

    So whose kingdom are they building anyway?

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15. De-Tox Church Group said:    
    November 12th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    RP Said:

    The sermon NxNW is refering to is Windows preached at the Capital Christian Center a few weeks ago…I can’t wait to hear it.

    So do tell what you think of Windows when you have a chance. We’re still reeling over the fact that some of the innocent folk at the new little church in Caldwell (that left Capital Christian much to the chagrin of KGW because he thought it was in too close of proximity to CCC and it would effect the tithe no doubt) thought Frank was coming to help bring the two churches closer together (since Capital was accusing the Caldwell church of being a source of their financial woes) rather than hit both churches up for a huge offering to further his satelite church ministry. These people can pledge plegdge pledge but that doesn’t mean you can actually squeeze the water from the stone.

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16. De-Tox Church Group said:    
    November 12th, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    Sorry– if that last post was hard to read, simply ignore what’s in parenthesis and then it will flow better. then go back and read the 2 sentences inside the ( ) because that is what lies at the heart of why Frank, as the head honcho of MFI, should have been there in the first place–to do his job as an effective and caring leader.

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