Willow Creek & Bill Hybels repents?!
Posted on November 10th, 2007 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, David Mackin Writes: categoryHere is part of an interesting blog about the mega-church, Willow Creek, and its highly popular seeker-friendly ministry philosophy. This excerpt is from a blog hosted by the editors of Leadership Journal. If interested, look for Willow Creek Repents Part 2 on the same site:
…Having put all of their eggs into the program-driven church basket you can understand their shock when the research revealed that “Increasing levels of participation in these sets of activities does NOT predict whether someone’s becoming more of a disciple of Christ. It does NOT predict whether they love God more or they love people more.”
Speaking at the Leadership Summit, Hybels summarized the findings this way:
Some of the stuff that we have put millions of dollars into thinking it would really help our people grow and develop spiritually, when the data actually came back it wasn’t helping people that much. Other things that we didn’t put that much money into and didn’t put much staff against is stuff our people are crying out for.
Having spent thirty years creating and promoting a multi-million dollar organization driven by programs and measuring participation, and convincing other church leaders to do the same, you can see why Hybels called this research “the wake up call” of his adult life.
Hybels confesses:
We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own….
In Part II, Greg Hawkins responds to the question:
Is Willow Re-thinking its Seeker Focus?
Simple answer – no. My boss would say that Willow is not just seeker-focused. We are seeker-obsessed. The power of REVEAL’s insights for our seeker strategy is the evangelistic strength uncovered in the more mature segments. If we can serve them better, the evangelistic potential is enormous, based on our findings.
source: www.blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/10/willow_creek
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November 10th, 2007 at 9:34 am
At least they are willing to admit mistakes. Though when you’re spending millions of dollars on programs, you’re not running a church, you’re running a country club for religious people.
November 12th, 2007 at 10:39 am
Got a working link?
November 12th, 2007 at 10:50 am
HERE
November 12th, 2007 at 5:47 pm
I agree with Catalyst that at least Bill’s not afraid of admitting a mistake. At least he is rethinking what the next step would be based on his/their findings.
Even though they weren’t able to favorably document whether people were actually getting closer to God through interest-based groups, doesn’t necessarily mean this ‘method’ of getting together doesn’t plant seeds where they need to be planted and thus further the kingdom of God in some way. Gathering for a bike ride or archery lessons sure beats having to spend hours and hours around church related activities that may plump up a person’s SENSE of how spiritual they are even though the very act of being in church all the time has the same effect on a person’s spirituality as an ingrown toenail.
Frank actually invited Bill to guest speak at one of the annual MFI Leadership Pow Wows that we attended about 3 years ago. Everything about his speaking was so different than the typical fare offered at an MFI meeting. I found his ‘talk’ refreshing and his ’speech’ made alot of sense. He actually read his speech, turning the pages over as he read them one by one, and told what he learned from experience about why it’s important to have interests outside of church that are totally unrelated to church for the sake of health and relationship. He seemed to me like one of the more intelligent and useful leaders in the church in America at the time even if his style wasn’t one of blazing entertainment and dynamic Charisma. The fact he’s not afraid to rethink and regroup attests to his desire to accomplish something that works well for his church and the Church at large rather than lamely build a name and kingdom for himself.
Of course, he isn’t Charismatic and that could be one of the reasons he seems so intelligent. Not that all Charismatic leaders are unlearned, but lately the reputation for being unwise and of no earthly value seems to prevail in a large portion of society today when the word Charismatic is mentioned. So maybe I should have used the word ‘wise’.
But back to Bill, I got the impression that he’s a thinker, and not an embarrasment to the body of Christ. It’s hardly his fault his church is a mega church. People like to latch on to something successful (thus Frank’s invitation) and he lives in a big city so there are lots of people in his vicinity that probably like what he has to say. He and his team are probably just trying to manage all they have been given to the best of their ability.
But we never know really. Hopefully there won’t be any embarrassing news breaking stories about him in the future because we know that could happen. Look at Ted H. We hardly saw his descent coming till it happened since he was an expert at keeping his alter ego and deeds hidden.
sigh.
We do know that the one person who won’t spiral into a deviant decline is Jesus. Thank God for Jesus.
November 12th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
I have been active in Church work for nearly 50 years and am fascinated to hear of these findings.
Some years ago in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) I was a pastor in the then pioneering work of the Assemblies of God. Within the organisation we had a smaal group that was under the apostleship of the them Chairman of the Assemblies of God in South Africa. He recommended that his workers moove every 2 to 3 years and most did. One of our workers had a very evangelical bent and went independant. It was fascinating to watch as his church brought people to Christ rapidly but they would leave and join the Assemblies of God after growing in Christ. This pattern fits the research results of today’s Willow Creek term. When will we ever learn.
November 13th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Pastor Bill Stevenson said:
Maybe there are aspects of Pentecostalism that appeals to those who have passionate personalities. It’s all or nothing and could that be it’s because they have addictive bents? If it isn’t drugs or alchohol or whatever, then it’s religion.
When we immerse ourselves into the scriptures, which is a great thing to do if you want to know God better, we aim to please Him so much that we get religious about it. This filters into our Christian Culture which prevails world wide. It’s implied if not said that if you really want to be close to God and truly be used by God it has to look and sound like what prevails in the culture. The culture is a strong and irresistable force and to be accepted in the culture is then to be accepted in the beloved even though that’s not true according to God’s word.
No wonder people migrate over to the piece of culture that sounds loudest and touts that it is doing more for God (it’s perceived) than any other. After all, rumblings of prophecies and healings certainly have a pull.
The problem is, study or no study, this kind of culture is doing little to help the world today. It’s great for those who are in it, but what is it doing for the world’s perception of who God truly is?
My question isn’t when will we ever learn? It’s when will we realize that it’s not all about us being strong spiritual Christians, but it should be about making sure people don’t die and go to hell for eternity.
That’s why I feel that even though Bill and his study has determined his Christians in his non Pentecostal world are not deep enough in growth and strength personally, at least these people have had a chance to get a glimpse that God is relational, he cares about our human relationships outside the church setting and actually smiles upon that; and these people when their time on earth is through have had a chance to receive Jesus Christ as their Savior simply because they have gathered with other people who do know Jesus. What are they chances of these types attending a Pentecostal church or Assembly of God or whatever when they think those types of churches are for fanatics?
November 13th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
I find it very interesting, if my understanding about Willow Creek is correct, that Bill and his initial team started Willow Creek many years ago by giving their neighborhood exactly the kind of church that they wanted. They surveyed the community, took note of their specific likes and dislikes about church, and then built Willow Creek accordingly. I think that starting and building a church according to a community survey has its pluses (attracting crowds) along with its minuses (lack of personal growth in Christ).
To me, much of this could smack of people coming to Christ on their own terms, and when they are no longer getting what they came to Christ for - good feelings, soft messages, money, health, etc. - they drop out altogether. This shows that the people probably never heard the true simple gospel preached: repent of sin, receive forgiveness and carry your cross.
In one of the largest seeker sensitive churches in our area, which is a Foursquare Church, the three words that the senior pastor forbids being mentioned from the pulpit are: “sin” - “repent” - and “hell.” In my view, it is impossible to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ without mentioning at least the first two of these three words.
When I attended there, the sr. pastor told us that the next thing that the church growth speakers were recommending be dropped from the weekly services was worship!
“Good seeds” no doubt were sown at Willow Creek - as long as the true gospel of forgiveness of sins was preached. If it wasn’t and if sin was never addressed, then the people might be likened to the soil that received the seed, but not having root in itself, withered up and died (Matthew 13). I hope that this is not the case.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
As always David make much sense! I agree that we can’t mutilate the gospel by taking bits and pieces out. But the way the Christian culture today is caught up in having its own caste system and elitistic thinking (by those at the top and those who worship those at the top enabling the whole thing) I can’t see how that is helping the world see the true heart of God even if the cross and repentence from sin stay in focus. What I did like about Bill’s approach was that it WAS friendly and brought God’s friendliness to light.
The same thing has been said of Billy Graham crusades that people who never quite get grafted into the church tend to fall away. Yet it doesn’t negate those people got in touch with the Lord and remember that point in time their entire lives. Those crusades were/are full of the unadulterated Gospel.
But maybe what’s going on with Bill and all the huge churches today is could it be that the entire mega church system will collapse from sheer exhaustion, credit card debt or some other weakness that could lie at the foundation of any of them? Could God be reshaping his church for survival for the days ahead?
If so, maybe it’s the house-to-house people who have been onto something all along as far as being authentic and approachable. House-to-house never gets so large that it’s a huge money making racket or a platform for the pastor to become more powerful than the rest of the 5 fold ministries. And it’s a perfect forum to study the Bible together. Well, it’s how the Church started. Wouldn’t it be something if we go out the way we came in?
November 13th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
De-tox church group…are you still a member of the MFI? Can you tell us some or all of your story?
When I was with the Vineyard movement, John Wimber had Bill Hybels speak at one of his Vineyard conferences, too. When I heard him, I can understand what you mean by a more friendly approach to the gospel. I liked that, too, except if it drops off repentance/forgiveness of sins from being mentioned. I haven’t studied Bill Hybel’s messages over the years, so I have not way of telling for sure. I have just noticed that the general tendency of the user-friendly churches is not to mention sin, repentance or hell.
Some say that Billy Graham watered down the gospel over the years. Some claim that he started out preaching a pure gospel and then diluted it over time. Only a close viewing of his crusade messages would show for sure…
I think that many who don’t come to Christ the right way, as it were, have a tendency to fall away and not follow Jesus at all. Many are like a premature or still birth: unless properly nourished to a certain level of self-sufficiency of health, the babies will die. I, however, don’t have the stats on this. I would prefer to agree with you and, if I understand you correctly, say that all that are exposed even to a watered-down, user-friendly gospel will continue to serve the Lord. I need to read more studies and interview more people on this one.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
No, fortunately we are no longer associated with MFI. And I’ll tell more of our story sometime when I’m freer to tell it. Or if you have a way to my email feel free to email me and I can fill you in a bit.
I agree that we all come in through the same door, but I’m rethinking the ‘right way’. Yes, these that fall away from improper planting into the soil (not the church) aren’t a hopeless cause because this round of responding to God may have been one of the many seeds planted.
Wouldn’t you agree that it all works together. The same Holy Spirit who led them to the Billy Graham meeting or to a Seeker Friendly Bill Hybles service or event can also lead them to another opportunity where the commitment can be deeper. I think it’s a matter of the person coming to the ‘end of himself’ as it were, and it probably takes more than once to help that happen. God, who understands human nature better than any of us, is amazing in His patience and no doubt pursues us with His love in more ways than one.
I would think He would be watchful over the seeds the person has given permission to and wouldn’t say ‘you didn’t do it the right way so sorry’. I suppose that was my point in my post before this one, that the dogma of the Pentecostal types may damage the seed(s) more than the seeker friendly types planted would– it may take that person longer to come back around when they feel they’ve been Bible thumped rather than loved and respected.
These are all just thoughts I have as I’ve been processing my own path. Bible thumping from others has caused me pause, even though I am a Christian and I’m considering where I am now and where I want to be with the Lord with the remaining years I have left on this earth. I’m finding I dont want to be associated with those who have given the ‘world’ a picture of God that I don’t consider to be true anymore. Well, there you go, that’s PART of my story!
November 14th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
de-tox: thanks for sharing part of your story. i look forward to more of it in an email. i’ll contact you soon. thanks.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Sounds great David
I was reminded yesterday that Bill didn’t necessarily have a thrust for the interest based groups in his church, that was Ted Haggard. Even with Ted’s unfortunate demise because of his personal ‘outside interests’, I still think he was onto something about doing things with people outside of the church setting (my reasons given in former post) for the sake of relationship and to hopefully share the love of God and His plan of salvation.
Bill, though, was sort of forced into exploring outside interests because he either had a nervous breakdown or a heart attack and was encouraged by his doctor to take up a hobby outside of church so that he’d live longer! So he took up Rigatta Boat racing. His story to us that night at the MFI meeting was about how the boat, racing, and his crew, blew his world wide open and gave him a way to share Jesus one by one with his ship mates as they asked him questions all at different times.
Just thought I should clarify all that.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Dear Friends,
Sorry my denomination has caused you to assume that I believe that Pentecostals are superior Christians. Far from it. I have ministered in many countries and spoken in different denominations over the years and was commenting on something that happened within our group.
I believe the Bible is our only measure of spiritual matters and that the early apostles encouraged those who were saved to grow in Christ and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. In fact John spoke of three divisions of Christian, babes, young men and Fathers and encouraged all in the Love of God and one another. Pauls comments are more challenging, when, in 1 Corinthians he says, ” I can’t speak to you as spiritual but as carnal, as babes in Christ.” To those of whom he has already said, “You come behind in no spiritual gift.”
The baptism in the Spirit is a gift available to all the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2) Even Spiritfilled believers need to grow. It becomes a real tragedy when God’s children seek to prove themselves more correct than one another. We need to be no longer children and love one another with a pure for then shall all men know that we are His disciples.
Thank you all for your comments they are prayerfully received.
Regards Pastor Bill.
November 15th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Hi Pastor Bill,
And sorry on my part for lumping all Pentecostals in one box. I don’t post all the time but when i do it tends to be a thinking outloud session and alot of it is ‘could it be’stuff and trying to figure out what we can do to change what’s been going wrong for years. I’m sure i come off as thinking i know alot more than i do when i really just have a lot of questions in my current phase as a Christian.
[ My long posts probably drive the One-Liners crazy, but then again they probably don’t read ‘em
]
My (and the DeTox Church group’s) former church of many years happened to be an MFI church. MFI believes God wants us to use all the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12 today. I happen to agree with that simply because I can’t see God becoming a respecter of time if he’s not a respecter of persons. So my problem isn’t with your denomination so much (I used the words Pentecostal and Assembly of God to make a quickly understood reference) as it is with a common note of condescension I noticed in people’s voices in the MFI circle when speaking of those in the body of Christ who don’t believe in the gifts for today. I’m sure the superiority factor goes both ways, though, and those who don’t believe in the gifts for today roll their eyes at us.
This divisive condescension is what the body of Christ as a whole needs to get beyond. Condescension toward one another causes us to remain in the baby/carnal stage rather than growing into maturity. It’s roots are in pride I suppose and we all have it–that tendency to think our church is more important than their church etc. The church we now attend has way more fruit than the former church and it’s a challenge not to look down my nose at former church. Until I remember ‘oh ya, what am i PERSONALLY doing to further God kingdom?’ — that tweaks my perspective a bit.
It doesn’t help matters, though, when there’s an elitist mentality in pastor families that reveals itself in both subtle and blatent attitudes of the wives and children of the pastors(the pastors themselves are better at masking it) — in how people treat them and how they allow themselves to be treated (the royalty factor). Not all pastor families are like this but we see it here in some of the Northwest MFI churches. This tone of ‘we are better than’ spans beyond thinking they are better than those they serve(as in royalty is higher than), when it fans into the congregation who because of their worship of the pastor family believe that ‘our church is really more anointed of God than the one across town’. From comments on this blog it’s apparent the elitist mentality is a huge problem in these churches.
So when it’s subtly inferred that someone like Bill Hybels, who isn’t a Charismatic in the Pentecostal sense, is finally seeing the light I get a little defensive for him because at least he was trying something that seemed less condescending in tone and attitude which ultimately attracted more people.
My bad for going off on the Pentecostals though. I should have just said MFI since MFI is who we beg to differ with on this blog!
November 15th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
[ My long posts probably drive the One-Liners crazy, but then again they probably don’t read ‘em
]
I read em. They drive me crazy.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
as soon as i typed that i knew i’d set that up :-0
November 22nd, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Dear Friends,
I guess we are bacically asgreed regarding the need for growth in all parts of the Christian Church (I hesitate to use the term “the Body of Christ”) which seems to be some mystical organism that remains undefined outside of the word of God. Jesus never said, “I will build my body, or I will build my kingdom.” but plainly “I will build My Church”. even in the mess it is in the Church of Jesus Christ can be seen by all who seek it and her name is clearly not one given her by man. Our aim of a universal church was clearly not the aim of the apostles in the first century nor was it their objective to have “unity in diversity”. They saw the perfection of the saints and their growth as progressive while their chief aim was to win men for Christ.
In an attempt not to bore you with words I will bait you with comments.
What is the church Jesus is building as opposed to those men are building?
Food for thought from Pastor Bill Stevenson.
November 22nd, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Bill said: (I hesitate to use the term “the Body of Christ”)…
Bill, I’m not exactly sure where you are going with your entire comment, but I want to say that there are well over 25 different metaphors used in the NT to describe the followers of Jesus (garden, vineyard, branches, bride, army, etc.) Nave’s Topical Bible gives many of them under Church. In my view, each one gives an important aspect of truth regarding the people that God has called out to follow him. I really don’t understand why you would fret at my use of one of them, the Body of Christ as it is seen in I Cor. 12. I hope that you’re not trying to make the point - like so many denominations have over the years - that they have found the “true” title to the “true” church - which of course is whatever their founder wanted to call them from the NT….
November 24th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Sure David, there are various metaohors used to define the followers of Jesus in the word of God and not one without significance, but the latest use of this particular term “The Body of Christ” to define the universal Churc of our Lord is replacing the term Catholic once used by all denominations. I don’t believe that this is the intention of Paul who used the term when writing to Local Churches and reminding them that, as a local congregation they were the body of Christ and should show all aspects of it to the community.
No one likes to give very long answers here because of limitations. I would just suggest that we use the term “The Church today” to include those who perhaps do not agree with us in detail but truly love and serve our Saviour. No the Assembly of God, although used of many of the early churches is not God’s title for his people (some have indeed claimed this) but perhaps the term Christians of Acts is. The church is not a building or denomination but a group of people in fellowship with one another and God meeting for mutual benefit. But we must all aim to grow up into him (Jesus).
I only make comment to promote meditation.
Thanks David. Yours in Christ Bill.