Adivce from a recovering legalist
Posted on November 13th, 2007 by catalyst into the Comments From Others categoryWe get letters, lots and lots of letters:
My name is G.E., I am a recovering legalist.
I attended PBC from 1979-1981. I did not attend church at Bible Temple but I did end up in 1984 with a Bible Temple Affiliate/Franchise – Living Hope Fellowship, pastor Jess Strickland now in Aloha OR. After many years of trying to fit in and be part of the leadership team, I found myself rejected and very bitter and hurt. It took a long time to recover and I am still recovering, but I have found a place of grace in my walk with Jesus and in ministry. I eventually left Living Hope in 1993 and wandered for a bit and then found myself right back in the same system with another MFI church. After more hurt and abuse I almost did not make it through but thank God I have been free from the MFI "set man" pastoral system for about 8 years now. There are several things that helped me in breaking free and recovering and I am sure that you know these resources but I thought maybe if you wanted to recommend them on your blog it may help others.
The first is a couple of books 1. "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen. This book was a great help to me to understand that it was not my fault. 2. " Tired of Trying to Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen. For years I thought there was something wrong with me because I was not able to follow the program or measure up to the approval of the pastor.
The second are the teachings of Frank Viola of Present Testimony Ministry (www.ptmin.org ). I was given a booklet he wrote called "So who is your covering" and God used it for me to expose the whole pastoral covering deception and the fallacy of the "set man/one man pastor" principle that MFI churches teach and practice. His perspective and insight on leadership, church and especially home churches has been a blessing over the years.
The third and perhaps the greatest influence on my life is a relatively unknown author – Steve McVey ( www.gracewalk.org). Through his book "Grace Walk" I began my journey to shed the old doctrines of religious bondage and truly begin to discover and live in God's grace.
November 13th, 2007 at 6:49 am
I’ve never been in ‘leadership’ in the church, but I’ve had the same experience. I have also read the same books!
I have David Mackin to thank for some of the reading material.
I also found a teacher/shepard who helped a lot. He is gone now, but his material is still available at www.healingtouchministries.org Theo Johnson was a real change….someone who had been in ministry for 20+ years and gave it all up to teach small groups in his home.
Freedom in Christ is so sweet, and walking with Him is what makes the difference in life.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
I appreciate you giving me my very own post, but I’m afraid I don’t see the relevance. I am not legalistic. I’m just a very single minded person…
I only have one Pastor, Jesus Christ my Savior. I do not elevate any man, I do not conform to Political Correctness (not even when cloaked with Christianity), I do not chase after whatever fad the church thinks is fresh and new. I do not expect that the world or carnal or religious ‘christians’ will like me, Jesus said “If they hated Me, they will hate you”.
I simply read and believe the Bible. It is a star, which leads me to the Savior (2 Peter 1:19) It is a light to my path and a lamp. (Proverbs 6:23) It is a discerner of my thoughts and the intents of my heart. (Hebrews 4:12) It is a mirror, revealing to me what I am and what I need to change. (James 1:23) It is cleansing water (Psalm 119:9-11)
I don’t spiritualize it, I don’t attempt to intellectualize it, I don’t rationalize why it doesn’t really mean what it says, I just read it and believe it. If I don’t understand what it says, I ask the Author, Who often sees fit to give me understanding. If not, I remember that I am just a child, and there may be many things that I cannot understand yet, but when I see face to face, I will then have complete understanding.
I don’t seek out other’s regurgitation of scripture, commentaries, lexicons, I trust that the Holy Spirit, Who has been promised to me and dwells in me, will guide me into all truth and bring to remembrance Jesus’ words that I need for life’s short vapor.
If that is what you call legalistic, well, then maybe I am….but it’s not fair to change the definition of a word…:o)
November 13th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
GE said:
I bet this booklet is a perfect antidote if you’ve read and live by “Undercover” by John Bevere, one of the favorites of the MFI elite. I truly believe this ‘undercover’ doctrine is at the heart of the endtime deception mentioned in the Bible when it says even the ‘very elite’ will be deceived. Who would have thought there would be such a double meaning to the world ‘elite’ in the church when that verse was first written!?
Thanks for sharing GE!
November 13th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
de-tox church group wrote: I bet this booklet is a perfect antidote if you’ve read and live by “Undercover” by John Bevere, one of the favorites of the MFI elite.
de-tox…thanks for mentioning this! i’ll have to get it and include it in my research against the local church temple/pastor-king system of over-control and kingdom building.
—
Hungry on the Harbor said: I don’t seek out other’s regurgitation of scripture, commentaries, lexicons, I trust that the Holy Spirit, Who has been promised to me and dwells in me, will guide me into all truth and bring to remembrance Jesus’ words that I need for life’s short vapor.
Hungry…Apart from the legalistic issue, when I read these words, I felt really bad inside. I can maybe say more later, but I just want to share with you right now that I also believe that the Holy Spirit is our teacher. Jesus says that he leads and guides us into all of the truth.
Nevertheless, the Indwelling does not take away from the fact that one of the most essential ministries in the Body of Christ is the teacher (Eph 4:11-12; I Cor 12:28, etc.). You said that you don’t read commentaries or lexicons. I understand that they can be pretty boring at times, too. But, your reason for not reading them was because they were a “regurgitation of scripture.” What did you mean by “regurgitation?”
I agree that we need to feed from the Word directly, but this does not mean that Bible commentaries are useless. I agree that the more devotional kind, e.g., Matthew Henry, Jamieson/Faucet/Brown, etc. tend simply to repeat what is already found in the text. But the more scholarly commentaries, e.g. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, the Interpreters’ Bible Commentary, The new Bible Commentary, etc. are invaluable in understanding the Scriptures because they bring light from history, customs and language that most of us would never have the time or the ability to research.
I am not saying that I agree with whatever I read, but to neglect commentaries, in my view, is to neglect much of the rich heritage of the Church. Friend, I’m sure you’re aware that we would not even be able to read the Bible in English if it weren’t for lexicons, and the linguists that write them, which divide up certain Hebrew and Greek words more into their original contextual meanings. If you want to find some examples of how some Christians interpret many texts of the Bible in misleading ways, I’d recommend, Exegetical Fallacies by D. A. Carson.
Without scholars writing commentaries and without linguists writing lexicons, I dare say, if it is possible, that we would have many more cults in the world today. Please reconsider your opinion on this one.
November 13th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
I agree. But what exactly is it that is supposed to be taught? The scriptures. Doctrine. The life of Christ and His sacrifice. How to live a godly life. Even a light perusal through the epistles show clearly and concisely what is to be taught. Peter, James John and Paul taught practical living knowledge and doctrine.
Has humanity changed so much that we need scholarly tools and ‘Bible specialists’ to tell us what the word of God says? Do you think God is pleased to see how complicated His word has become that once again the ’scholars’ believe the average reader of the scriptures can’t understand them enough to really benefit?
Aren’t we perpetuating the myth of hierarical importance of a man? We don’t want to have pastors or priests elevated, but we want some spiritual giant to regurgitate to us what the Bible ‘really’ says…which too often means, what we want it to say…..:o)
If what you say is true, what about those who can’t afford all these special tools? Are they doomed to live an ‘incomplete’ or less rich Christian life? Do you really think that Jesus didn’t know what He was doing when He went and found the fishermen, tax collectors, prostitutes to share His teachings with? He understood clearly that “knowledge puffs up, but love edifies” The scholars, Pharasees and scribes’ deep knowledge of the scriptures didn’t seem to help them much…
I used to think more ’scolarly’ in my views, I remember about 8-9 years ago paraphrasing the entire book of 1 John by going through my handy dandy Strongs Concordance and my Zodhiates Complete Word Study Dictionary and writing all my gleanings down…I was so proud of myself…:o)
The very best way to study the Bible is with a concordance and the Bible…
But that’s just my opinion…:o)
November 14th, 2007 at 5:19 am
I think it is just fabulous how you study the Word for yourself, HOTH.
I believe daily, personal Bible study by believers in Jesus, along with time spent in His presence, is one of the best things we can do. I’m thinking of that verse from Psalms: “Thy word have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee.”
It’s always been interesting to me how so little actual Bible study is done by the saints, and yet is so terribly needed in modern Christianity. I don’t know about you guys, but I’m seeing false doctrine all around me, every day, especially in the churches, from those who are proferring themselves as leaders and true believers in Jesus Christ. Bible study, especially in these last days is, IMO, just an absolute necessity to safeguard us from error. Now I’m thinking of what Paul said to Timothy……“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.”
Also this passage:
It’s pretty scary to me that it is God Himself that allows this delusion to come, all because they did not love His Truth.
However, I must say that I agree with Dave here. Some of the most blessed thoughts/truths I have encountered were by reading what God has said to other believers. Not to mention reading other’s opinions have helped me to find out that some of my previously held views were erroneous.
I believe the Lord has designed it that way, so that we do not become an island unto ourselves. Compare the application in Isaiah 65:8a. Regardless of how many times I have asked Him to open the Word to me — and I know He has — still I know that I have not learned it all, and I suspect I’m not alone in that assessment. We definitely need each other.
Peter advises this as well, when he commends his readers to Paul’s writings in 2 Pet. 3:14-16. Of course, I realize he is, strictly speaking, referring to Scripture, but the principle seems to me to be the same. Daniel also does this when he refers to consulting the writings of Jeremiah in Dan. 9:2.
Now, on the other hand, I’ve known people, many of them way smarter than me, who are always telling me about some great book they are reading on a biblical topic or concept. And the next week, they are reading something else, someone else’s book. And these are not bad books in and of themselves. Very good reading. I’m just saying I notice they don’t ever seem to get around to reading — much less studying — the Bible itself. It is there that we find the Words of Life.
So there is definitely a balance.
-joebib
November 14th, 2007 at 8:05 am
I’m not so sure that we can be taught (learn) to live a godly life. Teaching and learning affects the realm of the mind, perhaps even the habits of the flesh as controlled by the mind, but isn’t that all more or less “burnishing the cup” or “whitewashing the tomb”?
Even if we were successful to cram our heads full of the scriptures, doctrine, knowledge of Christ Jesus and we learned to conduct ourselves in godly fashion (whatever that is), well, does that change what is inside of us or are we still “full of maggots and unclean things”?
Teaching and learning that begets change, is spiritual. I don’t think men can teach spirit, after all, it is written:
Note the emboldened scriptures above. The Holy Spirit teaches, not men. The natural man can’t receive spiritual teaching, only the spirit of man can receive God’s revelation.
I keep getting the image of Peter, fishing ALL day and catching nothing, only at the end of the day after putting away the nets to have Jesus show up and say “cast your nets on the OTHER SIDE of the boat” whereupon Peter and his crew hauled in a big load of fish. To me, Bible study seems a lot like Peter’s fishing expedition. We can read scripture after scripture and none of it would make an impression on the reader unless the Holy Spirit directs God’s revelation to our spirit.
So for me, it is more important to be in spiritual communion with the Holy Spirit – to keep my ears attuned to the Father’s voice – than to have a daily regimen of reading scripture. Oh to be true, I enjoy perusing scripture, but rarely does my learning and growth come from that source. It is from the internal work of the Holy Spirit that I grow. It is from surrendering to Christ Jesus that He lives in me more effectively. The scripture reading? Yes, it can change the flesh by disciplining our minds and redefining our habits – but – I can’t help but wonder at the futility of our meager efforts when real change is accomplished by the Holy Spirit teaching our spirits directly.
And Joe, who gave us the wonderful posts on John 1, parts 1 and 2, said:
Your next assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to answer the question “what is truth” (hint: John 14:6). For extra credit, you can answer the question “what is prophecy” (hint: Revelation 19:10).
Sam
November 14th, 2007 at 9:46 am
That is so true–to a point. Paul clearly advocated disciplining the flesh when he confessed to buffeting his body and bringing it in to subjection–why? “So that when he has preached to others, he should not be disqualified” Obviously he appreciate the gravity of not only the message he was spreading, but also his responsibility to not be a hypocrite or to compromise (put at risk) his calling. “I strive to be without offense toward both God and man.” (Acts 24:16)
Again, if we are not to learn from the scriptures, why were the epistles written? Maybe they are a just waste of onion skin and should not be included in the Bible? Why were the Beareans commended for diligently searching the scriptures to be certain that what Paul and Silas were preacing was true?
Indeed, the scriptures, per say, do not save us, but the living Word, which is Jesus Christ, saves us when we believe on Him. However, in following our Lord, it is our responsibility, as it was the Bereans, to make sure that we have a good knowledge of the One we are following; to walk as He walked (1 John 2:6) by observing his ‘biography’ if you will, and of those who also walked closely on His heels, and listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit He sent to us to be our guide. (and yes, sometimes the HS speaks through the writings of others, but our primary gleanings should be His Own historical, prophetic, corrective, instructional, and inspirational word.)
Now Truth, is not just the opposite of a lie, or falsehood, but is also clearly defined in many places in scripture as a ‘way of right living or walk’ (1 Kings 3:6; Psalm 26:3; Jeremiah 7:28), or ‘the commandments of God’ (Psalm 119:142; Psalm 119:160; Malachi 2:6) That is why Jesus could be the only rightful sacrifice for our sins, because he was the ultimate Truth, who fulfilled each and every requirement and obeyed every command that God gave to humanity. As His children we are to walk the same way now that we have the power to do so.
So perhaps the verse you noted could be written, “I am the Way, (the only path to Heaven) the Truth, (I have walked according to God’s perfect design, so follow Me) and the Life (All who follow Me will recieve eternal life) and no one comes to the Father except through Me. (under the cloak of My righteousness)”
Just my thoughts…
)
November 14th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Hungry: I appreciated your recent comments very much. I have responded to them in an article on the blog. Blessings.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:06 am
A good observation, but, isn’t it strange that the man who “buffets his body” so that it does nothing to offend the people to whom he is preaching, also says this:
Let’s examine:
“I became Jewish for Jewish people”
Really? I thought Paul said “no one is justified by the law”, and in comparing the law and the gospel of grace he likened it to being offspring of the bond-woman or the free woman. Likewise, IF a person allowed himself to be circumcised, that the gospel was then of no account?
Having received the gospel, but then willingly becoming ‘Jewish for the Jewish people’ sounds like someone striving for the approval of man - for God certainly did not require Paul to be Jewish.
Likewise, becoming like a gentile, who lives as if the law was of none accord, just to gain an inroad with the gentiles to present the real gospel - which is Christ and Him crucified.
These things make me wonder whether the behavior of our flesh is of any lasting concern? It sounds as if Paul wasn’t buffeting his flesh to bring it under control to appease/please God, as much as he was doing it to gain a foothold with men for the gospel. And I guess that makes sense, in as much as God has told us to put our flesh to death (take up our cross) and where we fail to do so in this life, God has scheduled for each of us the eventual death of our flesh.
In the end, does it matter whether our doctrine is correct? Does it matter if we can recite volumes of scripture? Does it matter if we have the appearance of living a godly life (whatever that is)?
Why I observe these things, has to do with the friends the Lord has surrounded me with … recovering drug addicts and alcoholics, aging rockers, sometimes coarse in their expression of opinion … I simply love these guys and they know it … the average Christian who saw me hanging out with them, would probably pitch a fit over my language at times, that I am just hanging with my friends, enjoying a good cigar and glass of wine … surely someone would say “that’s not living a godly life” - and I guess I’d have to disagree with that assessment - for aren’t we told, in the end, that off all the characteristics we use to evaluate one another, that the greatest enduring characteristic is LOVE? (1 Corinthians 13)
This to me, is the outward sign of a godly life:
We put so much emphasis upon beating our bodies and minds into whatever our perception of “a godly life” is - typically through an attempt of the flesh to obey scripture as law - yet when we’re done / think we’ve arrived - we croak. That all seems so vain / futile to me.
I mean, when we can boast “God, I stopped drinking, smoking, swearing, philandering, for you” - does God give kudos, or, does He mourn, wishing instead that we had simply listened for Him, been His friend, and loved one another?
Guess I don’t think anyone can attain a godly life through right doctrine and scripture.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Sam: So, am I to understand you to say that Christians show God’s love the best by smoking with those who smoke, drinking with those who drink, swearing with those who swear, etc.?
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Sam said: Having received the gospel, but then willingly becoming ‘Jewish for the Jewish people’ sounds like someone striving for the approval of man - for God certainly did not require Paul to be Jewish.
Sam…As I understand the ministry of Paul, he became “all things to all men” that he “might win some.” In my view, he was not pleasing man, he was pleasing God because he was attempting to win others to Christ including his own people, the Jews.
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Sam said: In the end, does it matter whether our doctrine is correct?
Sam: In my view, No and Yes. No in the sense that it doesn’t take deep doctrine to be saved. Simple repentance and faith are all that are required. But, yes, in the sense that Paul many times exhorted Timothy to maintain sound doctrine centered in the gospel and ethics of Jesus Christ: Why? because there are “deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons” I Timothy 4:1. Timothy was not to teach any other doctrine, I Tim 1:3. Fornication, sodomy, kidnapping, lying and perjury were “contrary to sound doctrine” I Tim 1:10. Paul told him to gave attention to doctrine, I Tim 4:13. There are many other verses showing the importance of doctrine in the Pastorals. (Some say that they Pastorals were written not by Paul but by one of his disciples, but that is fodder for another time.)
November 14th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
You do not understand.
Having a good cigar, glass of wine or bourbon, and the occasional use of a slang word are not issues of holiness to me. Nor are they issues I use to judge whether or not someone is holy, or living a godly life. These I believe, are social values that many religious people have imputed to spiritual values.
Take drinking. Jesus drank wine and made wine. If we make it an issue of holiness or living a godly life, do we mean to imply that Jesus was wrong or perhaps even unholy or ungodly by his actions?
Smoking. It’s only been a social (and health) issue since discovering in the 60’s that it causes cancer. Before that, it was the social norm, and many enjoyed smoking in moderation, which I enjoy.
Now suppose I am with my friends, we’ve had a nice supper, and they retire to the deck with a drink and a cigar. In ‘becoming all things to all people’ in order that one might win some to Christ, is there any harm in indulging in something that is not a sin? Or might that person by his self-imposed piety in fact offend his friends by not joining them for such an indulgence?
Most believers I know would avoid the whole situation altogether - thereby sending the message that they’re too good or aloof to hang out with people who make them uncomfortable.
I’m of the opinion, that Jesus, in walking this earth, became ceremonially unclean at times. Like when he raised the dead … aren’t there laws that render a person who touches the dead as ceremonially unclean for a period of time? Commonly, we say that Jesus knew our sorrows, hardships, bore our sin, etc., yet, on the flip side, we often we have difficulty imagining the humanity of Jesus.
Do you suppose Jesus ever heard his followers tell any samaritan jokes?
Did Jesus ever turn to Peter and say “pull my finger”?
If ever we were to venture “outside the camp” and “go out” unto the multitudes with the gospel, we are assured of becoming unclean, because we will come in contact with those who are unclean. So what! The churchy notions of “this is good, that is bad, touch this, don’t touch that” are all useless - even rooted in the law. I wonder if believers realize, that pious / puritanical behavior is a turn off to many who might receive Christ Jesus? Our unwillingness to get a little dirty (sometimes) clearly conveys that we are putting ourselves above those who are unclean.
So, for Paul, in becoming like a gentile, to win some gentiles, do you suppose he ever ate bacon? Though it was probably uncomfortable to him - a jew by birth - the passage suggests that he did what was ‘unclean’ for him to reach gentiles.
A cigar, drink, a little slang - has no affect on my salvation - does not trouble my conscience at all - does not affect my faith.
Wish believers wouldn’t get their panties in a wad over such insignificant issues as what we eat or drink.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Samaritan said:
Ha! Maybe this is the problem with all the uptight Christians, their panties are always in a wad!
I do think that a fear of being unclean is at the root of most Christians’ reluctance to get out there and mingle with the people. And at the root of that is pride. We all have it in one form or another. Pride keeps us enshrined in our protective layers; pride keeps us lazy; pride makes us want to take cover when others discover our weaknesses.
If we could all just give it a rest (all the religious garbly gook that makes us so stupid) and start thinking of who God has near us and bravely take a step out of our prayer closets (yet another shrine) to love them in whatever creative way the Holy Spirit leads us, just maybe we can show the world, one person at a time, the true heart of God as we all discover Him together. I dare say it won’t be in church meetings.
November 15th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Sam,
Great comments! I too have struggled with this predicament. Is it ok to act like a sinner to win them over? I guess my answer would be, what is the fruit? Have you seen one of your friends come to know Christ through your friendship? I have really been trying to reach out to my neighbors and have played poker with them and tried to stay away from drinking and smoking (more out of personal preference) and tried to make sure they realize that I love them and God loves them for who they are. It’s been going on almost three years and so far nothing has happened. I have got them to come see some of my performances at our church drama productions, but so far no fruit (that I can see). So how do we judge whether this is working or whether it’s ok? I think by the fruit. Jesus hung out with “sinners” - prostitutes and tax collectors - which were the lowest of the lows in those days, yet He affected them. Their lives were changed and transformed because He was their friend. Oh how I pray the same for my friends who don’t know Christ. God help us!
November 15th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
FPBCPres,
Wish you had said “is it OK to hang out with sinners to win them over?” But I know what you meant.
There is a group of guys whom I’ve known through a music recording forum for 4-5 years. We’ve recorded a CD together - talked via BBS and phone for years - exchanged holiday gifts - helped each other when there were pressing financial needs, etc. We’re all in our early 50’s, settled … a few months ago, we met for the first time on the east coast. The vacation was a year in the planning - we rented one of those 5 bedroom beach houses on stilts - so we all had our private space - while we turned the living room into a jam/recording studio.
In the build up to the week, the guys talked about what we’d do besides music - mostly harmless stuff - golf, movies - there would be beer and liquor - cigars - and about all that I had no objection. When one of the guys joked about renting “porn” videos, I told them if thy did, to count me out - turns out they were just being mouthy …
So during the week, it was just a bunch of regular guys, who loved music and had a lot of love and respect for one another, hanging out and having fun. I enjoyed a few great quality cigars, a few beers, and lots of good conversation with the guys … eventually the conversation did open up, on their leading, to talking about God. The discussion was fairly intense - not because there was argument, but because the guys were expressing their disappointments, frustrations and outright disgust with organized religion, particularly catholicism which the guys had experienced in childhood …
I had no expectations of converting them or leading them in the sinner’s prayer - only in just hanging out with them - enjoying their company - loving one another. Yeah, it kinda broke my heart to be on the receiving end of their blasting - but I know it’s not so much about God as it is about those who claim to represent God on earth … so all I could do, was listen, empathize, and love ‘em.
You know Prez, one thing that the Lord showed me that helped a lot, was just looking at the time-line for Peter - from the time he started following Jesus, to Peter’s confession “you are the Christ, the Son of the living God … it was about 2 years. Peter had seen Jesus heal people, raise the dead, walk on water, feed the multitudes, and STILL it took a revelation from the Father before Peter could understand that Jesus was the Messiah - the Son of God.
So salvation isn’t instant - sometimes it takes years and years - the reason for which the Father gave us patience / forbearance I suppose …
I was thinking about the whole “getting dirty” or at the very least doing something that makes us uncomfortable to be ‘jesus in the flesh’ for sinners … in the story of the good samaritan, he likely became ceremonially unclean in treating the man’s wounds - and it was the fear of becoming unclean that likely prevented the priest/levite and rabbi from stopping to help the man … their sense of religious duty prevented them from showing compassion for the wounded man …
Luke 11:34 says the samaritan “bandaged his wounds” - I suppose the man was bloodied - and blood contact - at least for a woman on her period - was cause for being ceremonially unclean … so the samaritan got down and got dirty for the sake of the wounded man … not sure where it is in Leviticus (?) about blood contact - but I’m pretty sure it’s in there.
There’s another thought I have, Prez, that I’ve expressed here before, though admittedly it’s unorthodox and make some folks uncomfortable. But that’s a view of Matthew 25:31-46 … Jesus receives the love of sheep for “these brother’s of mine” as if it was love expressed directly for Jesus … your friends - my friends - are they seeing and experiencing Jesus in us? Is God affording them an opportunity to be judged as “sheep” because they have loved us, as brother’s of Jesus?
I think maybe it’s pretty normal for some folks, to first begin to respond to Jesus in us - to feel the love of Jesus through us for them - and eventually they respond - hopefully with revelation from the Father that what they are seeing / experiencing in and trough us, is God’s son. I’m pretty certain that you have, like I have, asked the Father to make you a “Jesus with skin on” for your friends. And in hanging out with them, on their turf/terms, introduces them to an approachable and understanding Savior … unlike the IC, which seems to send the message that “you need to get yourself cleaned up before you can approach God” …
At any rate - I hope you don’t struggle with it, Prez - what you are doing is just the same as Jesus did for us. He didn’t set up in an ivory temple and call men to himself - he went to them.
If you need any recommendations for a good cigar, just ask.
Blessings bro! Sam
November 16th, 2007 at 8:47 am
I love your heart Sam
November 16th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Sam,
On to your great comments. I wholeheartedly concur! Wasn’t that easy. You know I think that the organized church has to often strayed away from “controversial” things, rather than facing them head-on. Jesus hung out with “sinners”.
Yeah I guess I could have used better phrasing with my words. Ashton and Arturo Fuentes for me.
I remember my senior message at PBC was titled “Smelling Like Sinners”. In the message I related that I had worked with the program Stitches and specifically the Asian kids that they reached out to. We went to a certain apartment complex once a week and hung out with those kids. I called them “my Asians”. These kids definitely had a special smell to them. They stunk to say the least. Whenever I got back to the dorms my lovely flannel jacket had an odor that was something akin to urine+smoke+unwashed kids. One time I went to take it off before I got to the dorms in fear that “certain” leaders would think I had been smoking, when the Holy Spirit totally convicted me. He said to me, “That is what I smell like.” Oh my. I was totally convicted and determined that I would do whatever I could to “smell like sinners.”
So if it takes lighting up an Ashton to show my friends that I care about them or drinking a little “brewski” then I’m okay with that.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Prez,
For some reason, I’m prompted with this scripture:
Not sure the context applies exactly - but there seems to be a message that whenever and wherever we “go out amongst ‘em” - that the things of the enemy (that old serpent) and the things he concocts to poison us, won’t have any effect on us - assuming of course that we’re IN His name and we’re armored up …
Montecristo’s, Choiba’s and Romeo y Julietta’s for me. Will have to try an Ashton.
November 16th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
ditto
November 17th, 2007 at 2:25 am
ditto.
Sam is indeed a good guy.
Most of the time, that is
-joe
P.S. Just don’t make him go nuclear.
November 17th, 2007 at 6:39 am
More like El Kabong, Joe.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:10 pm
Legalism means strict, often too strict and literal, adherence to law or to a code. Theol. the doctrine of salvation by good works.
In many churches where the pastor (false apostle, false teacher of the law) is the dictator-their perceived reality of truth is searching the scriptures to find fragments/passages that they LOVE to convert the Old Testament Tithing law (burnt sacrifices) into MONEY, so they can make merchandise of their follower’s souls. These churches do a lot of babbling outside of scriptures.
Don’t you just love the one about the “little old lady who gave all she had,” I’ve heard many false teachers of the law say she was “more blessed for giving all she had.” This is a lie. No where in that passage (Mark 12) will you find she was more blessed, nor did it endorse the Old Testament tithing. Jesus was using this little old lady as an example of how those stiff neck legalistic butt heads took advantage of people!
In the beginning of this chapter Jesus is speaking in parables, about servants of men. How the master/husbandmen are greedy and treacherous and how they send the servant away empty and shamefully handled. This chapter goes on to talk about Mark 12:33 how we’re to love God with all our heart, understanding, all our soul, strength and to love our neighbor (not just our church group) to love others as our self -this is WORTH MORE THAN all whole burnt offering and sacrifices (tithes). And later Jesus talks about, “Beware of the scribes” (doctors of the Jewish LAW). Could this also mean preachers who preach we’re still under the tithing law? Jesus clearly said in His’ doctrine, Mark 12: 38:
“Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, 39And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: 40 Which devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.
41And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
No where in the text does it state we are under the law of tithing and no where in the text does it indicate that the poor widow was more blessed. Jesus was merely using the widow and the servants as examples of how people are mistreated by man - and legalistic authorities.
November 19th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Karen, very well said! touche!
November 21st, 2007 at 6:25 am
First let me say hello to all. I just picked up this thread on this morning and some ways I was touched and others very disturbed. The true heart of the matter (in my opinion) concerning this is the old/new cliché, “What Would Jesus Do”.
By all means, I believe in the word where it says become all things to all men that you may win some, but what does that truly mean? Does that mean to corrupt your values (personal or Spiritual) to be like them. I am not saying to shoo them of like a pesky persistent fly, but where do you draw the line when reaching out to unbelievers?
Should a recovering alcoholic have to return to the bar scene, be tempted by the passions of the environment to reach someone trapped in the throws of the night, or do we leave that to someone who didn’t struggle with such even though its our friends?
Yes, I do agree that today great percentage of the organized church is trapped in legalism, and many people are hurting because the strictness of all the “do not do this” and many are turned away because of this.
Yes Jesus ate and drank with the tax collectors and prostitutes but even after doing all this those who followed him in that day after listening to the master first hand turned away after all he did to reach them (John 6). After reading this tread and studying biblical reference I came up with three truths.
#1. I reality, a lot of the things that people do in this world are wrong whether we want to admit it or not. The bible is very specific when it comes to sin, and its fruit and we are to apply this aspect to every area of our lives.
#2. Most of the time we recognize our sin to be just that, especially those of us that who are sensitive enough to hear from the Spirit of the Lord. The problem comes where we want someone to validate our sin as ok, so we can feel as if it’s acceptable.
I think a quote by Andrew Bonar says it best,” I looked for the church and found it in the world. I looked for the world and found it in the church”. We want to be friends of this world and not be “set apart”. Refer to Jesus as he teaches in John 15. He went as far as to say that since he took us out of the world it would hate us.
I look and I ponder this deeply… Why Lord? It’s because you are not part of this world or follow after the coded lifestyle of sin in your natural man, since we are now a new man (no gender there).
You can also refer to Romans 12:2, “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” When we conform to something, we look or become just like it….not God’s perfect will for us.
#3. Finally, we must listen to God and what He wants. Not what our friends, relatives, or even someone on this thread (to include me). Personal holiness needs to become a priority in our lives, by seeking after Him in every aspect of
November 21st, 2007 at 6:56 am
Onestar:
Would you please define “holiness” for me?
I ask because in the past, my personal definition of holiness had a lot to do with “touch not, drink not, say not” - you know - rules of the flesh. But in rethinking that, I can’t say that is a biblical definition of holiness - rather - I’ve come to believe after reading contextual use of the words ‘holy’ and ‘holiness’ in scripture that it is simply in reference to something or someone that is ’set apart’ for the Lord’s use, as in “it is holy unto the Lord”.
Jesus was “set apart” (holy) unto the Father, yet he was sent into a world rife with sin. Of course He did not sin, but certainly through His contact with the world, became ceremonially unclean. He also drank wine and made wine - and said “it is not what goes into a man that defiles him” so clearly drink or smoke can not defile a man in spiritual terms.
As for smoke, well, it’s a stretch, but ever read in the OT where God is satisfied with the “aroma” of a burnt offering? How is God taking a nose-hit from a burnt offering any different than a man enjoying a cigar?
Anyhow - all I’m suggesting is that perhaps believers should do a re-examination of the notion of “holiness” - that perhaps our personal definition is not biblical, but rather has gotten tangled up with legalistic rules: don’t eat, don’t touch, don’t toke.
Sam
November 21st, 2007 at 8:05 am
Sam,
I can give you profound words of wisdom but the thoughts of my finite mind wouldn’t be able to come close to what was written/inspired from above. The best definitions of holiness are described in God’s Word.
James 1:19-27 describes the process of holiness the best in my opinion.
It even cautions those who refuse the path of holiness even after they have seen what it means to be holy.
It reads, “19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it–he will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”
Dare not call James legalist, for he and those with him moved against the grain concerning spreading the message of the Christ.
Also, the pursuit of personal holiness is a process. It doesn’t mean that you will be perfect for no matter how hard you try, you will miss the mark somewhere. As children of God we are to be obedient to what the voice of the Father would say, that’s where personal holiness is surely developed.
Refer to Hebrews 12:9-17
“9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. 12 Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13 “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. 14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.
By the way, you said
Samaritan said:
November 21st, 2007 at 6:56 am
Jesus was “set apart” (holy) unto the Father, yet he was sent into a world rife with sin. Of course He did not sin, but certainly through His contact with the world, became ceremonially unclean. He also drank wine and made wine - and said “it is not what goes into a man that defiles him” so clearly drink or smoke can not defile a man in spiritual terms.
Jesus never became ceremonially unclean… Yes, even though he had contact with the woman who had an issue of blood, touched the daughter of Jabirus and raised her from the dead, and became a curse.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
In fact, it was him becoming this curse that freed us from the law, therefore freeing us from a lifestyle of legalism if we so choose.
You also said,
As for smoke, well, it’s a stretch, but ever read in the OT where God is satisfied with the “aroma” of a burnt offering? How is God taking a nose-hit from a burnt offering any different than a man enjoying a cigar?
All I can say to this is again, it seems as if you are seeking vindication for why something should be considered ok. That would be just like the hippies, and the cocaine addict saying, “Hey it came from the earth and God gave us all the plants to use”. I don’t know…. Search your heart on this and find the true intent of the matter.
Hope I answered your questions clearly enough.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:12 am
Onestar,
I think that from your comments you are suggesting that smoking and drinking are a sin and that they defile us. Is this the truth? If it is not then I apologize. If it is then please show me in the scripture where it says that we may not drink and smoke. As far as my research goes, it only says do not get drunk. If God says don’t do something and I do it, that is a sin. For example “Don’t commit adultery.” If I commit adultery, I am sinning. Thanks for your time.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:31 am
FormerPBCPrez:
I am not saying that. However, I will say this. On the walk that I am on, I know that even the appearance of me doing things that “seem” worldly (smoking, drinking, etc.) can hurt my witness, so I choose not to do them. Instead I show sincere concern to those who are struggling by showing love, and caring for their needs.
Let me ask you this. Why do you smoke or drink? I mean really the real answer. You will probably tell me that it relaxes or relieves you. Take a true evaluation of the situation and tell me if you wanted to stop right now, go cold turkey, could you do it without looking back? The answer is probably no. Another reason why I distance myself from these things, I have spent my life combating (and winning) over enough addictions, don’t need to add something else to the pot of my “past”.
Someone reading this blog wish they would have known now what they knew then concerning their future and alcohol/drug dependence. After losing their family and all the heartache hindsight is always 20/20.
This again goes back to my previous text concerning the disciplining of the Father. Let Him correct you and move with your convictions of such, for he shall truly correct those whom he love. Follow the voice oh His Spirit, that’s all I’m saying.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:44 am
Onestar,
Thanks for responding. The only reason that I will smoke a “stogey” or drink a class of wine would be because someone asks me to. I actually don’t think it relaxes me and a true evaluation of the situation is that I don’t really care for it that much. I honestly could go for the rest of my life without either and I would be totally fine. For example in the last year I have smoked a total of 2 stogeys, no cigarettes, 2 beers and I think maybe 1 glass of wine. So if you consider that an addiction then yes I am addicted.
Also I have thought many times about my “appearance” to other Christians. Not wanting to cause them to stumble, yada, yada, yada. However, Jesus didn’t really care about offending the religious of His day. In fact if you did some historical research you would find that most of the things He did were to “tweak” the religious mindset. To show them how legalistic they had become and that they had turned away from relationship. He didn’t care about their legalistic mindset and did not have a fear of man and neither shall I.
Let me ask you another question. If Jesus were here today where do you think He would be? Where do you think He’d hang out? I for one do not think He would be in very many churches, He would be hanging out at the bar with sinners. He would be hanging out in the garages of His neighbors drinking a beer and watching the game while maybe playing some poker. And yes there would be the “leadership” from the local church there criticizing and asking how He could do that. As for me, I want to be where He is.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:50 am
Thanks for replying, Onestar. Though I haven’t made up my mind about it, I am aware of debate concerning the inclusion of James in the volume of God-breathed scripture.
Paul for example, noted that James was a Judahizer writing “when certain brother(s) from James” (Galatians 2:12) came, Peter withdrew from his contact with the (unclean) gentiles … before James followers came on the scene, Peter ate with the gentiles (is that bacon on your breath Peter?) and was not concerned with whether or not they were “of the circumcision” … Until James came along and pressured Peter, Peter was walking in God’s revelation to him concerning “clean and unclean” (Acts 10:10-17, Acts 10:28) … so in effect, Peter turned his back on the revelation of God to follow the legalism of James.
Some are of the school of thought that James does not belong in the God-breathed canon of scripture - and one Messianic Rabbi friend of mine says that James was not accepted for inclusion in scripture, originally …
There is more in James that is in conflict with the gospel of Jesus and as presented by Paul.
As for Jesus and ceremonial uncleanness - pray tell how He touched a dead person, or leper, and did not become ceremonially unclean under the law of Moses?
You don’t equate ceremonial uncleanness with sin, do you, Onestar?
Sam
November 21st, 2007 at 10:04 am
First let me say…..Wow. Second…. seriously, are we having this conversation?
FormerPBCPrez let me address you first. Your smoking rate doesn’t reflect most that are in your situation, and no, I would not call you an addict. Also, if Jesus were here today He would be in the very thick of it, winning the world one soul at a time. Not a question in my mind about it.
Yes we are like Jesus and have the power that was given to Him by the Holy Spirit….However; we don’t posses the tenacity of our maker. How many times have you sinned this year? Heck, I will even take this month? (Of course rhetorical questions) I don’t think you could tell me if you tried. Jesus, the creator lived and walked for 30+ years and fell not. So as far as being in the thick of it… Leave me out of the strip club ministry, just one unclean or dirty thought concerning one would be enough to call sin.
Again this takes me back to telling you to follow your own convictions. If you are satisfied with how your Father sees you where you are, by all means, you are an adult and make your own decisions, just as I am. We (and those closely linked to us) will live with both the rewards and consequences of everything that we do in this life.
As for you Sam……
Brother.
Is the book of James an approved part of the 66? I can hardly believe your previous post. The scripture you presented in Gal. is one of the greatest things about God, His love, and infinite wisdom. Even though James was afraid of what the circumcised might do, and strayed to legalism, God still used him to do great work in the body of Christ.
Secondly, the scripture doesn’t say he ate everything the Gentiles ate. It says he ate “with” the Gentiles, you know at the same table, at the same time. Does the scriptures speak of the disciples going back to James and correcting him as well? I didn’t check but will…. Even if it doesn’t, does that mean that it didn’t happen? I would have to believe if Peter was publicly called out, there would be no reason for me to believe the same didn’t happen to James once they met up later.
Finally, observe the following scenario:
Since Peter was turned back to legalism let’s cut his book out of the bible as well… wonder what your friend the Rabbi would say about that. He may say the same; at this point it wouldn’t shock me. Just because the writer had flaws that doesn’t mean we can cut his book from the bible.
In fact, Paul said in Romans 7 he struggled with doing the right thing. It reads,
“14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body F27 of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. ”
Since Paul screwed up, I got an idea, lets cut his books out as well now we have well, let me see….2 books (joking estimate) of the New Testament left. Since Moses, David… shall I continue? You get the point.
Follow God and His grace. I guarantee He has showed some to you lately!
November 21st, 2007 at 10:06 am
By the way Sam…
If Jesus was unclean for ceremony then… there is no grace for you. Refer back to my previous post about Jesus becoming a curse to answer this.
November 21st, 2007 at 10:33 am
Onestar,
I am definitely not saying that I don’t sin, thank God that His mercies are new every morning. What I am saying is that as believers we need to be showing the “light” of Jesus to a dark world. And for too long they have shied (sp) away from that. I also know my limits and would you find me in a strip club or a porn convention, no. But thank God someone is. I know that I can minister to my neighbors and show them the love of Christ, not by criticizing them for having a beer, but showing them that having a beer doesn’t make any difference. What makes a difference is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. If I can show them that, then I have succeeded.
November 21st, 2007 at 10:42 am
FormerPBCPrez:
I hear ya, and I don’t bring condemnation and neither does Christ. I will also say that in the future you views, perception, and values may change. For I have been where you are, and now I am where I am
.
star
November 21st, 2007 at 10:43 am
Onestar - you categorically stated “Jesus never became ceremonially unclean…” yet acknowledged that he touched the woman with blood (unclean), Jairus dead (unclean) daughter, etc.
The law states:
Lev 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcass of an unclean beast, or a carcass of unclean cattle, or the carcass of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
That’s just the first of many scriptures stating the one who touches anyone or anything that is unclean, becomes ceremonially unclean.
How can you say therefore that Jesus never became ceremonially unclean? Are you suggesting that Jesus was exempt from the Law of Moses BEFORE the work of the cross was completed or the new covenant put in place?
The prescription for dealing with things unclean is among other things, ceremonial washing of the flesh and clothing, and to put the one who becomes unclean out of the camp for a time/period of cleansing. The writers of Hebrews even notes in Hebrews 13:12-13 that Jesus was put outside the camp - in fact, went there willingly.
Hebrews 13:12-13 KJV Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. (13) Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Concerning the inclusion of James, you might find this LINK interesting - about 3/4 of the way down the page, it says this about James:
November 21st, 2007 at 10:48 am
Well Star,
I guess we can agree to disagree. May God bless you this Thanksgiving and may your witness draw people to Him.
Blessings,
Prez
November 21st, 2007 at 11:04 am
You do the same Prez, and may God bless you and yours as well
Star
November 21st, 2007 at 11:14 am
Sam:
The easiest way to answer this is for you to refer to my 2 previous posts. However, let me say this. Jesus fulfilled that which was required of the law, and was not bound by it. So, did he live the law or become the ultimate sacrifice so you and I didn’t have to follow it?
You decide.
By the way you avoided my entire last post entirely. Just because a “man” thinks that a book should be cut doesn’t mean God will allow it. That’s just like saying,
I don’t agree with this love thing Jesus said so lets cut it out and live it up.
I don’t agree with this love thing Jesus said so lets cut it out and live it up.
November 21st, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Actually, I read your post(s) and simply noted that you did not answer my question directly. Your answer concerning whether or not Jesus became ceremonially unclean seemed an emotional / religious answer to me, for scripture clearly defines what acts cause a person to become ceremonially unclean and elsewhere it records that Jesus did those very things. So clearly, holiness is not about “don’t touch, don’t drink”, etc.
Perhaps your answer would be different if you understood that ceremonial uncleanliness wasn’t a permanent condition. For example, touching a woman with a case of blood or a corpse rendered a person ceremonially clean for the duration of the day or at the most several days. The person rendered ceremonially unclean simply had to wash his/her body, wash or burn their clothes and wait out the period of uncleanliness, after which the person was once again clean. Obviously, ceremonial uncleanness is not sin.
Funny how the OT practice of ceremonial washing mirrors NT practice of baptism with water - even today though we are cleansed by the blood of Christ, we are still commanded to wash our feet with water … but our bodies do not need washing … what’s that all about?
That I believe is symbolic of the fact that once we are IN Christ, we are no longer of the world - He’s effectively lifted us out of the world. To look at it another way, we walk above sin now by the blood of Christ - but because we still trod this earth, where sin abounds, we still come in contact with sin / unclean on occasion - and need to wash up where we have been contaminated. Symbolically, our feet are where we still come in contact with the world, hence foot washing …
I have no problem imagining Jesus on occasion becoming ceremonially unclean as he ministered / came in contact with the sick and sinners … it is after all the picture of taking our burden upon himself … and IF we are going to be like Jesus in this life, then we are also going to come in contact with those who are sick and sinning - and we may even stumble in the process - but we are cleansed of it by the blood and an occasional foot washing …
Anyhow - much ado about an occasional brewski and stogie. You asked Prez:
That was very presumptuous, onestar. I’ll tell you why I do it. I like it. And, there have been a couple times when with religious folks the Spirit prompted me to order a beer to tweak their tighty-whities. And when the religious person I was having lunch with pointed at the beer in my hand, stood and cried out “THAT’S EVIL” the Spirit prompted me to say “Jesus said “it is not what goes into a man that defiles him” - are you calling Jesus a liar?”
I believe you also said it would affect your witness among Christians or cause them to stumble? Really? Why not view it as something to challenge their religious hangups? And why do we need to witness to Christians anyway? I thought we were to go out into the world - where drinking and smoking is quite common! As for why I drink or smoke: I enjoy it - and only do it on infrequent occasion. As for the potential of imbibing or smoking invalidating your witness (among believers), the opposite may be true among the unsaved! Can you imagine the witness of a Pat Boone type would have at a biker bar?
Several of my friends smoke and drink. It does me no harm to join them, in moderation - in fact, helps to establish a measure of trust so that the gospel might be shared. Or, I could just suggest an alternative - sitting around the campfire, making smores and singing Kum Buy Yah.
Now as for James - I didn’t give you my opinion - I said I was undecided. What I offered was the opinion of a few modern Bible experts, and later the history of the modern canon. It wasn’t until 400 years after Jesus crucifixion that the epistle of James included in the modern canon. There’s a reason for that - men led of the Spirit and closest to the time period of Jesus were not inclined to include it among the canon of scripture. And I simply noted one of the incongruities I’ve seen …
So long, onestar. Have a nice holiday.
PS - have you ever wondered why it is the religious pitch such a fit over alcohol and tobacco, but have no quams with caffeine, trans-fats, chemical preservatives, etc.? Does the one pollute the body where the other doesn’t?
Sam
November 21st, 2007 at 3:10 pm
I drink because good wine, good beer and good liquor taste good. I also drink because it helps me forget about things like Dennis Dixon’s knee and the Duck’s basketball team losing to the Gaels by 11.
November 21st, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Damn you Locutus…you don’t kick me while I’m down, you wait till I get back up…
The minute I decide to move on to supporting Duck’s Basketball they go and lose to St. Mary’s…F’ing St. Mary’s.
November 21st, 2007 at 5:05 pm
I wasn’t kicking you, I was sharing my testimony.
November 21st, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Gaels? Sounds like a women’s team. Is it?
November 21st, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Even worse. Catholics.
November 23rd, 2007 at 4:56 am
To quote you, Sam, “Your next assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to read the following:”
I’d say that “saving” one’ self and one’s hearers would come under the heading of “godly” living,” wouldn’t you?
(Again quoting you) “For extra credit, you can answer the question:”
Answer?
Shall I go on? Cuz there’s like a zillion or so more verses I could supply
Seriously though, Sammy, I just want to say that for me, I find the more I immerse myself in His Word, and make it a part of my psyche, the more likely I am to remember (even subconsciously) and obey it, and thus attain a bit more holiness — conformity to His Image — each time I do.
Sigh.
Sammy, you touchy-feely/I’m-led-of-the-Holy-Spirit-so-anything-goes type guys are always forgetting to study…oops, sorry…read your Bibles.!
Remember this one?
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.
4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children,
5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. (Titus 2:1-5, NIV)
Dude, snuff out that Montecristo and pick up that Bible, or — forget Quick Draw — I just might have to sic Underdog on ya. K?
-joebib
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:25 am
El Kabong can totally kick Underdog’s arse, Joe.
I agree and appreciate what you said, Joe, and know those scriptures - however, my intent in the statements above is, and perhaps I should have said: “ABSENT JESUS (or ABSENT THE GRACE OF GOD IN CHRIST), Guess I don’t think anyone can attain a godly life through right doctrine and scripture” and likewise “I’m not so sure that we can be taught (learn) to live a godly life.”
What I’ve written should also be examined in light of Paul’s lament - (don’t have my Bible here at mom’s house to find it for you) - “who shall save me from this wretched body of sin … for what I want to do, I don’t, and what I don’t want to do, I do” …
What I hear Paul saying, and I resonate with in my own life is, no matter how hard I try to apply the rules of the flesh for godly living, my flesh still has a mind of its own - no one, short of shedding their body via death, has ever beaten sin. Leaving Jesus out of the equation, which was my jist in the statements above, what good is a head full of scripture, whipping the flesh into obedience, having right doctrine? The pharisees had that and yet weren’t they referred to as “viper’s brood”, etc.?
The other consideration Joe, is a seldom quoted passage that reads something like “nothing beyond what is written” - a passage oft ignored by the super-charismatics, latter rain, 3rd day crowds … Google suggests it’s 1 Corinthians 4:6-7 or thereabouts. If the “sola scriptura” crowd were really “the scriptures only” and applied “nothing beyond what is written”, how might that affect their notions that a cigar or shot of whisky is bad? Certainly there is nothing in scripture that says they are evil - on the contrary - scripture says nothing that goes into a man can make him unclean. There is also ample evidence of making and drinking wine, so clearly it’s OK.
So, using the scriptures, and only the scriptures, and refusing to impute social values or ever-changing moral values as precepts of scripture or a “cleanliness is next to godliness issue”, can you or anyone else demonstrate that smoking a cigar or enjoying a glass of wine / beer / short is sinful / ungodly?
Locutus is sure to love my grammar and punctuation this morning - but it’s the best I can do coming down from a tryptophane high, using dial-up and on only 1/2 cup of coffee.
Jack
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:32 am
I like to enjoy a glass of wine every once in a while. Sometimes I’ll have two, but never more than three, because I know it is sin to be sloppy drunk and bare your nakeness. Some reason it was ok for the patriarch Noah.
Remember how Noah’s daughters plotted to get him drunk…so they could get pregnant by their own father…that’s really strange, but then this chapter was written by a man guided by the holy spirit. I wonder how the daughters would have ex