Do Christians need Bible scholars? A response to Hungry on the Harbor
Posted on November 14th, 2007 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, Scriptures, David Mackin Writes: categoryQuestion: Do Christians need Bible scholars? Should Christians take time to read Bible dictionary articles and Bible commentaries or should they stick to the easier to read popular paperbacks? Would it be better for believers just to spend their time in prayer getting revelation directly from the Holy Spirit rather than actually studying the Bible? Join Hungry on the Harbor and I as we discuss these important questions:
Hungry on the Harbor asks: [When it comes to the Bible] what exactly is it that is supposed to be taught?
Hungry: We are to teach the whole Bible to the whole Church. In my view, each section of the Bible has some beneficial knowledge for Christians to help them live for Jesus Christ. A problem with many churches is the topical sermon approach: the pastor-king can select whatever he wants to put together sometimes casting a spell of false doctrine over an entire congregation. More challenging is expository preaching/teaching through the Bible. The plus is that it is a little bit more difficult for a preacher to concoct false doctrine that way, but the challenge is not to make it too routine.
Hungry on the Harbor asks: Has humanity changed so much that we need scholarly tools and 'Bible specialists' to tell us what the word of God says?
Hungry: Humanity is still sinful like it has been from the beginning of time. Yes, we need scholars and scholarly tools to help us interpret the Bible. Are they equal to God? No. Can the average Christian get edified from the Bible without them? Yes. But, how else would we know many things, e.g., that the social structure of ancient Israel (high priestly families, priests, Levites, congregation) was based on its temple purity system which saw the holies of holies as the most sacred of all places and everything away from it as moving in lesser levels of holiness? Thus, there was a religious justification for social stratification and the accumulation of wealth at the top of this social pyramid. Sure, the Holy Spirit could show this social fact to a sincere Christian, but have you ever heard of him showing someone this insight by revelation rather than study?
Hungry on the Harbor queries: Do you think God is pleased to see how complicated His word has become…
Hungry: If God is the author of His word, then to follow your logic, are we not able to say that it is his own fault that the Bible has become so complicated? ; ) The Bible is shown to be very complicated in some circles but does that mean that we run away and hide in our personal closets of anti-intellectualism? When I have a scholarly question, I go to a scholar for an answer. When I have a prophetic question, I go to a prophet for an answer. When I have a psychological question, I go to a psychologist for an answer. When I have a pastoral question, I go to a pastor for an answer. The trouble with the Senior Pastor cult is that too many senior pastors try to function in all of these realms themselves and they fail. We need every gift in the Body of Christ.
Hungry on the Harbor queries: …that once again the 'scholars' believe the average readers of the scriptures can't understand them enough to really benefit?
Hungry: Which scholar did you quote here to support your thought? Scholars are professionals just like any other profession. Just because they publish their articles using Hebrew, Greek, Latin, French and German terms in scholarly journals that most of us never read does not mean that they think that the average reader cannot benefit from reading the Bible! The challenge is that scholars should be willing to submit their ideas to the discernment of the average Christian reader just as much as the average Christian reader should be willing to allow his revelations to be critiqued by scholars. Paul did not leave anyone out when he said, “Test all things; hold fast that which is good.”
Hungry on the Harbor asks: Aren't we perpetuating the myth of hierarchical importance of a man?
Hungry: The undo exaltation of a human being can and does happen in all walks of life. Some people swear by their family doctor only to find out later that he received little or no training in basic nutrition while in medical school. Some Christians believe everything their pastor says over the pulpit even though too many read popular paperbacks rather than dig into deeper Bible reference works. Something is a “myth” only if it turns out not to be true. Why not read what scholars have to say and then, if you disagree with them, give your reasons? Isn’t this what good education is all about – even Christian education?
Hungry on the Harbor says: … which too often means [that we make the Bible say] what we want it to say.
Hungry: Everybody makes the Bible say what he or she wants it to say at times. Some do this more often than others, and we all have to guard against it. In an effort to avoid this kind of over-subjectivism is the reason why scholars submit their articles to their peers for critique both before and after publication. Unfortunately, I haven’t observed too much of this in the Senior Pastor cult. I remember once when a certain senior pastor had me read a paper he had written on Jeremiah. After I read it, I told him that, in my view, the paper left a lot of room for improvement. He never asked my opinion again. Why? It appeared to me that he didn’t really want constructive input, he just wanted a pat on the back.
Hungry on the Harbor writes: I used to think more 'scholarly' in my views, I remember about 8-9 years ago paraphrasing the entire book of 1 John… and writing all my gleanings down…I was so proud of myself.
Hungry: I would like to read your paraphrase of I John sometime. I’ll bet that it’s very edifying. May I ask, why do you think less “scholarly” in your views now? Maybe the Holy Spirit is emphasizing a different season in your life. I believe that he does this: at times, he calls us deeply into prayer and Bible meditation without any other books; at other times, he will call us to go to the library and read many articles or books on a certain topic. In my view, it all depends on what spiritual season we find ourselves in. I think it’s good that you wrote all or your thoughts down on paper. How do you know that the Lord will not want to use those gleanings in the future? You said you were so proud of yourself for doing so. One does not have to become proud through studying and note taking. Pride tends to come when we think that we don’t need the other gifts in the Body to balance and complement our own; also, when we think that we know all that there is to know about something. In I Cor. 8:1-3, verse 2 corrects or balances out verse 1c, the verse commonly quoted by anti-intellectual Charismatics.
Hungry on the Harbor says: The very best way to study the Bible is with a concordance and the Bible.
Hungry: Studying the Bible with a concordance is a good start, but if one limits oneself to that, many pitfalls await. I mentioned this in an earlier blog: the main Bible study method that one of my favorite Bible teachers in Bible college still uses is the concordance. He goes through various books of the Bible and looks up every key word in an English concordance and categorizes them. When this teacher first showed me this method, I was indeed impressed, but as I began to expand my study skills, I began to see its clear limitations if not dangers. Briefly:
(1) If you use an English concordance, e.g., Strong’s, you will miss many of the same Hebrew or Gk words that are simply translated differently. Using New Englishman’s Greek or Hebrew Concordance is better because they give you every place the Heb or Gk words is used in the text no matter how it has been translated.
(2) The concordance method by itself does not provide the student with the historical, grammatical or cultural background of the text. The simple fact is that we cannot understand the Bible properly without studying it in context.
(3) This method actually can give the student many false views of Scripture because it compresses worlds of meaning into a list of words. E.g. just recently I corresponded with one of my former teachers in Bible college about his published beliefs on tithing. In his last email to me, he said that I needed to go through my concordance on every verse in the Bible on tithing to try to get a more accurate picture of it. I have done that, and it was a start, but in my forthcoming book, I hope that I can demonstrate that just like going down one’s concordance will not get you to the truth about tithing, neither is it the complete answer for any other question a sincere believer might ask.
(4) The student is falsely taught to read back into the text (eisegete) the symbolic or metaphorical meaning from one reference in the NT that is said to “interpret” most, if not all, of the others. E.g., just because “leaven’ has a negative meaning in I Cor 5:8, it does not necessarily have that same meaning in the OT sacrifices that contained it. This is why, in my view, Kevin Conner’s book, The Symbols and the Types, contains some good insights, but since it was built on the concordance method, is more of an exercise in plays with similar English words rather than solid biblical interpretation which is available in scholarly Bible dictionaries and commentaries.
November 14th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Yikes!
With all due respect, I feel like you took many of my theoretical questions out of context and used them as sound bites to make your points…personally, I don’t feel like that is a ‘discussion’…:o)
I hope people read for themselves exactly what I posted and the spirit in which it was said…:o)
I am a simple person who believes that God the Father is more than able to communicate through His word and His Spirit to his children. Much knowledge often does nothing but puff people up making them proud and unbearable, without really helping them to love their neighbors as themselves, to do the work of the ministry, and to walk in a way that pleases God.
I also soberly take into account the clear warnings that Jesus gave, as well as those that can be found in 2 Peter, 1 John and well as Jude warning against the pervasiveness of false prophets ‘great swelling words’ in the last days. If I personally know the Word, in context, I will be less likely to be distracted from what is really important in the eyes of My Heavenly Father; loving Him and loving others.
Again, this is just my opinion…:o)
November 14th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Hungry on the Harbor said: I feel like you took many of my theoretical questions out of context and used them as sound bites to make your points…personally, I don’t feel like that is a ‘discussion’…:o) I hope people read for themselves exactly what I posted and the spirit in which it was said…:o)
Hungry…I apologize if I took your questions out of context. I do not want to take you out of context while I try to support the importance of context in Scripture! That would not be good. I also hope that people will read all that you wrote, too. So, I am deeply sorry if people might misconstrue your thoughts because of me! — Having said that, now is your opportunity to help me understand more specifically how I took you out of context and turn this into a discussion in the truest sense of the word, as you mentioned. I look forward to discussing these points with you on the blog. Again, my sincerest apologies…David
November 14th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Do cooks need cookbook scholars? No.
Do mechanics need repair manual scholars? No.
Do Christians need bible scholars? No.
One of the fundamental problems with the ‘religious / scripture expert’ paradigm is that it prevents discussion among believers, rather has believers turn to the ‘expert’ for the answer. How is that ‘working out the faith’ with fear and trembling?
At what point does the believer graduate from the tutelage of the bible scholar - and finally go out into the world with the gospel message conveyed in the bible? Seems to me the institutional church and the ‘bible scholar hierarchy’ never graduates anyone.
Bible scholars have turned believers into perpetual / life long students who never graduate, never take their education out into the world to tell the lost and needy about Jesus.
I’m reminded of a favorite old story, David:
November 14th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
I’m not upset, and apologies are humbly accepted….I’ll try to explain myself better, but as I said earlier I am a very simple person, and I get rather repetitive after awhile…I just don’t think life is a complicated as some would believe….:o)
My point in asking this question was that of course humanity hasn’t changed, but neither has God’s message. I just can’t picture Jesus sitting with a bunch of scrolls around his feet as he talked with fishermen and prostitutes. His message was simple and direct, and it changed lives. It is the same message today, it’s just harder to dicipher at times when we think that we have to know Greek and all the historical intricacies in order to live a Christian life. How exactly does knowing the previous information regarding the social structure being based on a temple purity system help us to love our neighbor?
I have no doubts Who the Author of scripture is…:o) It is man, not He, that has seen fit to reinterpret His word or try to make it so complicated that the ‘average Bible reader’ surely misses what he/she really needs to know to walk the Christian walk. Jesus knew what he was doing when He found the ‘new, fresh wineskins’ to pour his teaching into. People who were not drowning with preconcieved ideas and weighty understandings. Just simple, hard working laborers who would obey his gospel and share it.
That there should be any hierarchical importance of a man is a myth. Jesus said, “Call no man Father, for you have one in Heaven, nor call anyone Rabbi or Teacher, for one is your Teacher, the Christ” (Matthew 23:8-10) James even warned teachers, for they are under stricter judgement…(James 3:1)
I have no idea what you are referring to when you say ‘popular paperbacks’.
It is lamentable that this is true. But even subjecting an article or insight to peers for critique is no guarantee that it is spiritually solid. As you wrote further regarding Frank’s paper, we can too easily dismiss one’s opinion we don’t like, and take comfort in the approval of someone who thinks just like us. And there are too many who heap up for themselves ’scholars’ who share the same enlightmenents and think they have a firm handle on Truth…
I had my tongue in my cheek when I wrote this, my point being that just because I spent all that time studying–and, while it did encourage me and nourish my soul–it unfortunately also made me feel proud that I had spent all that time ’studying’. The pride did not help me at all….I haven’t necesarily completely rejected the ’scholarly’ view today, I just think that the most effective Christian life is to be lived, not studied…
Just my thoughts…:o)
*Whew* I’m feeling a little long–winded after all that, but for the sake of brevity, I’ll cut it short….:o) If this ‘discussion’ is to continue, could we please narrow it down to just one or two points?…:o)
November 14th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Well, I agree with David, ….and Sam. If there had never been any scholars to translate the bible into english, I’d likely hear a mass in latin and walk away as ignorant as when I entered.
I also enjoy reading things written by Christians who have gone before me
and whose testimony has stood the test of time. (John Wesley, Martin Luther and others)
Today, however, we tend to elevate someone with a ‘degree’ over others who do not have one. One of the things I have really enjoyed since leaving the IC is to hear what the Lord is doing and saying to common folks in a house church setting. An auto mechanic tells how Jesus spoke to him about how to do a difficult repair. A housewife relates how the Holy Spirit spoke to her to check on a child in the yard, and got there just in time to keep the child from running in front of a dump truck in the alley.
)
I’d rather hear the mechanic and the housewife over most televangelists in the world today! (it will be cheaper by far!
As far as “what should be taught”, I like Matthew 28:19-20. Jesus told the disciples to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU. (see John 14:23 )
In Acts 2:42, it is recorded that the believers were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching (doctrine). I’d like to see someone FOCUS on these areas! I did a book title search on “Apostles’ Doctrine” and did not come up with much. Where is a scholar when I need one?
In closing, is has been written that over 80% of the people living at the time of the Roman empire were illiterate. Why is it that people who could not read or write were able to set such a high benchmark for Christianity?
Something is missing, and I’d like to find it!
November 14th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Hungry/Harbor said: if this ‘discussion’ is to continue, could we please narrow it down to just one or two points?…:o)
Hungry: Thanks for your long and thoughtful response. I think you have a lot of good things to say. I’m satisfied. Why don’t we call it quits for now. Next time I’ll try not to be so overwhelming! God bless you!
November 15th, 2007 at 11:23 am
I think part of the problem has been and can continue to be that religious institutions like bible colleges or seminaries can become breeding grounds for only intellectual knowledge. How many professors now at seminaries across the country believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God? I have heard that a number of them say it is not. How do we justify sending our kids to these institutions if they don’t even believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God? These are the insitutions that are spitting out our “pastors”. I for one would rather trust His Holy Spirit to enlighten me on His Word.
November 22nd, 2007 at 8:05 am
Having again read through the responses here, as well as the thread that inspired Dave to start this one — the Recovering Legalist thread — I think I can perceive a straw-man deal forming here.
I’m still not seeing why there is (much less should be) disagreement with the view that we ought to engage in Spirit-led Bible study, in addition to consulting what others have said — which is what David (and I, on the other thread) has(ve) posited.
I read nothing in his remarks (or mine) that suggests we think we should scuttle the input of the Holy Spirit, which is being (over-?) stated by some.
So, not to offend by saying this, but, ummm, what’s the beef?
Did you folks read his remarks carefully? He mentions seasons of prayer for personal insight from the Holy Spirit, as did I, in the other thread.
If I’m reading you all correctly, the opinions being put forth by Samaritan, P-prez and HOTH, on the other hand, seem to pooh-pooh using the various biblical/exegetical/theological/linguistic study tools (except for a concordance), as well as referring to what others have said/studied, in preference for needing only
hysterical flashes of weirdness from my own imaginationpersonal illumination from the Spirit. Heh-heh.Seriously guys, if I’m wrong on that, forgive me. Please show me in your remarks where aren’t saying that, in so many words, and I’ll recant, but that is what I’m hearing from ya’ll.
And I’ll say it again…I’ve asked the Holy Spirit for insight into His Word more times than I can count, asking for revelation and illumination on the Bible, and He has graciously opened so much of it to me. And yet, I am still puzzled by so much of it. I don’t know it all. I assume I’m not alone in that position. I need to hear what He has said — and is saying — to others. Don’t you?
And pardon me, whatHEsaid, but it seems to me you are actually only in agreement with Dave (as well as myself), as again, he is/we are for: 1) personal study using various tools, 2) AND what others have said/studied, 3) AND the H.S.’s illumination, of which my man Sammy is keen on only the latter of these three. So, to me, you’re really disagreeing with Sammy.
I especially agree with your remarks regarding what regular joe’s have to say about what the Lord is saying to them through His Word. In fact, I love it, and I’m all for it, 100%, and I think we need a lot more of it in these Last Days. Just as long as it is within the safety of the circle of other believers. And not just our own particular clique. IMO, we need to compare our doctrinal constructs with that of others with different frames of reference — scholars and regular joes — especially those who have struggled with these same issues throughout history. It’s just too easy to back-slap one another into positions of mutually-held false doctrine. We need theological cross-fertilization.
Again, let me offer the biblical examples of those who studied what others had said, viz., Daniel studying Jeremiah, and Peter studying Paul (and yes, I know they were studying Scripture, but the principle is the same, IMO), that I posted in the “Recovering Legalist” thread before it got hijacked by the when-in-Rome thing. Heh-heh. These guys got direct revelation from God — the kind none of us gets — and yet they still checked it out with what God was saying to other believers. So, why do would we think we don’t need to do that as well?
________________________________
Sammy, Sammy, Sammy…I love you man, but I find myself looking for a strong cup of ethernet-espresso to send you in order to try and lift the sub-zero fog which has descended upon your cigar-tokin, whiskey-drenched brain! Maybe you had better switch to Nicorettes and near-beer, bro
Have you never heard of Jim Jones? Sun Myung Moon? David Koresh? Or those goof-balls down in Rancho Sante Fe — the Heaven’s Gaters — who offed themselves some years back while waiting for the celestial spaceship to escort them to heaven?
All these guys had one thing in common…..guess what it was? I have it on very good authority they were all overheard to chant the following, every morning at sunrise:
Or, at least, words to that effect
Now, if after they had gotten their respective
false doctrinesrevelations directly from the Holy Ghost, they had just taken the time to consult Luther’s “Larger Catechism,” Calvin’s “Institutes,” Kevin Conner’s “Foundations,” H.G.T. Shedd’s “Dogmatics,” or any topic under “David Mackin Writes,” they might just have seen the error of their ways, realized they were out there in goofy-land, and gave “the-Lord-told-me-to-do-it” thing a rest.IMO, the problem with HOTH’s position, sincere as it is, is that no one is an island unto themselves. We’ve all got a blind side. Show me one person who hasn’t. And just attempting to “hear” from the H.S. for oneself — no matter how you slice it — does make one an island unto themselves. God didn’t intend for it to be that way for believers. It’s just too dangerous. Paul said the very same thing when he said the head can’t say he doesn’t need the foot. It’s right there in 1 Cor. 12:14-25.
-joebib
November 22nd, 2007 at 10:31 am
I heartily agree that no man is an island, but as you already acknowledged earlier; It’s just too easy to back-slap one another into positions of mutually-held false doctrine. Why, if people always went back to the original text to compare notes/ideas/inspirations with the true Author, we wouldn’t even have a CBC blog! ‘Cause somewhere, someone would have been sure to set PF straight, along with all the other prosperity/false teaching clan…
I don’t mind teaching aids, or the insight of godly men whose consistant upright walk of love and concern for the lost proves to me that they know my Lord personally. My concern is when we lean on them solely without the balancing aid of Scripture…we too often look for ways to refute Scripture because we may not like what it says. If the Bible says something is ‘black’, and if we don’t like it, well, we will dig around in all those books or commentaries or do interviews until we finally find someone that says it’s ‘white’, then sit back in smug satisfaction; “There, see? I’m not the only one that thinks this, so it must be right!” The flesh is way too powerful to trust to listen to and obey the Spirit alone without interjecting a few personal, desirous illuminations. The Bible is so clear warning us against those who would lean too heavily on human ‘wisdom’;
1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge—
2 Peter 2:18
For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
My other concern is that we get so hung up on doctrine, theology, word meanings and historical applications that we may neglect the weightier matters; justice, mercy and faith.
I am glad for the passion many show for knowledge, but do they have the same passion for their wives/husbands? for their children? for the hungry, the naked, the sick, the imprisoned? Can we say, like Job, that we “Seek out the case I do not know”? (Job 29:12-17)DO we actively look for ways to help others or do we do a good deed or two and pat ourselves on the back? Job was a righteous man, and he didn’t even have the Spirit of God as we do today. Do we justify and sputter and stutter over all the ways Job’s culture and life was different than ours, or do we lift up examples of righteousness and desire to walk as they walked?
You see, when we stand before God and finally see clearly without the dark mirror, Jesus said He will welcome the good and faithful
) What we so loftily hold up as important knowledge can often be a distraction. I personally don’t think my Heavenly Father cares how much I know, (otherwise those pharasees and scribes would have been teacher’s pets 
) as He does how much I DO….
studentSERVANT.NOT that I think I am earning any Heavenly brownie points, I just think we try too hard at times to impress man with our great spiritual knowledge/discernment when we should simply be exhorting one another to obey the Lord while it is still called today…..:o)
November 22nd, 2007 at 11:57 am
I don’t even want to consider the thought of what we would do without the CBC blog (gasp!).
I agree with you 100%, HOTH. We need to learn to leave our a prioris on the shelf when we come to the Word. Let the Bible say what it says, and let the chips fall where they may. If our doctrinal feathers get ruffled, and our theological applecarts get overturned, well then, that’s the idea, isn’t it?
I’m not entirely sure why you’re pressing this point, as I’ve not read anyone in this thread say to look solely to men, to the exclusion of Scripture. No one here is saying it, nor has it been implied. Nor is anyone saying that we are to not love our spouses, the oppressed, live godly lifestyles, and so forth.
But, I understood the subject of this theme to be in reference to studying the Word of God, in an attempt to see what it really says.
Thus, in reference to studying the Word, I’m saying we would be wise to add the ministry of the Body to that of the Spirit and the Word.
Now, this is not my idea; rather it’s what Paul says in his First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 12:
as well as in chapter 14:
-joe
November 22nd, 2007 at 2:36 pm
I appreciate your verses answering this specific question…I have no issues with the ministry of the body, nor am I advocating that we all just meander along with a “just me’n’ Jesus” mentality. Jesus said that His followers would be recognized “by their love for one another”…there are alot of ‘one another’s’ in the New Testament…:o)
As I look at those previous verses, in context, *wink* I see that the purpose of Paul saying this is to encourage unity in regards to spiritual gifts. That there should be no ‘more important’ or ‘less important’ members of the body. In other words, “Do what you have been called to do, exercising those gifts that God has given you heartily, for the ultimate benefit of the gathering as a whole” I’m not entirely sure what it has to do with reading and studying the Word…:o)
I also take note of verse 14:26;26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for
)
arguingedification.So if we are to consider ’studying the word to see what it says’, What is the word? What is the purpose of the word? What is the benefit of the Word? I stumbled across a few more verses to ponder…
Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (we should proclaim the word of the Lord, not our own)
2 Corinthians 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation (It is for reconciliation–that would be between God and man)
Ephesians 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, (it cleanses us)
Colossians 4:3
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, (it is the good news of salvation we are to share with the world)
2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. (it is to be obeyed)
Is this why we study the word? Or do we just like to flex our spiritual muscles and try to impress…
)
Maybe you haven’t been around long enough…:o)
November 22nd, 2007 at 9:23 pm
joe: very well said; thank you very much!
November 22nd, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Hungry said: I personally don’t think my Heavenly Father cares how much I know, (otherwise those pharasees and scribes would have been teacher’s pets
) as He does how much I DO….
Hungry, I agree that obedience is everything but what I am trying to say is that God has called some to be teachers in the Body of Christ (I Cor. 12; Eph 4) and their “doing” is studying, researching, questioning, and instructing in many of the details of the Word. They are doing the Father’s will. Just because someone else is called to be an evangelist, prophet, apostle (church planting missionary), pastor, etc., in my view, does not take away from their legitimate ministry.
November 22nd, 2007 at 9:58 pm
david, not to change the subject, but did you get my email?
November 23rd, 2007 at 5:43 am
Forgive me for quoting you to yourself, Hungry, but this certainly seems to have been your issue, as well as what you were advocating, when you posted this comment in the other thread:
OOOPS!
Anyway, thanks for the
flip-floppingclarification and it only took, what? 4 posts? in this thread to say it, not to mention the what? 3 or 4 responses? in the Legalist thread, for a total of like, 8 posts, to finallyfess upmake yourself clear….that you would graciously allow others in the Body to perhaps have something that they might be able to share with you. I applaud your wisdom in accepting (finally) what Paul says is to be done:Now, HOTH, just so as to not give the wrong impression, I will type one of these…
;)
…just to show I’m having a bit of fun here with you.
All good? OK, swell.
Let us proceed, then.
You say:
Inasmuch as I’m sorta noticing this very thing in your comments, I would say that only you, sister, can answer that query.
I do love all the verses, though…six in one post. That’s good. I’m all for more Scripture.
Hold on a sec…I’m getting a call…be right back…
(”Hello?…hey dog, waddup, yo?…yeah…yeah…but…but…well…yeah, I could say that, but…aight…aight…aight…it’s your blog…aight…aight, yo, I’ll holla atcha later, K?…aight…aight…late.”)
Alright, here’s the deal…Performed Rope just called me…we’re pretty tight, you know — we’re on the Verizaon Wireless “Best Buddies” Plan — and made the following suggestion, with which I heartily concur:
HOTH, in the name of keeping the posting around here to a minimum, and saving valuable webspace, do you think you could see your way clear to “clarifying” yourself in a bit more timely and efficient manner? You know, just get right to the point without all the
pontificationposts?This would allow
us scholarsDave and myself, whoknow it allenjoy posting, toflex our spiritual musclespost more often andtry to impressschool the less scholarly posters on this blog. Like Samaritan.May be.
:O
-joe
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:31 am
May you choke on a turkey bone, Joebib!
November 23rd, 2007 at 7:51 am
*Sigh* I’m repeating myself here, but did you ever hear of the word Balance? It’s a pretty strong word, and one I feel is the most valuable when it comes to working out our salvation with fear and trembling…whenever I sense a leaning a little too heavily to one side or another, I simply add a little weight to the other side, so’s
A little law balances ‘greasy grace’.
OR,
A little grace balances ‘obey the law’.
Some attention paid to works balances dead faith.
OR,
we are saved by grace through faith balances legalistic works.
In the same token, too much reliance on the wisdom of men, which is foolishness in God’s sight, should be foolishness to us as well. We should listen to anyone that loves us enough to lovingly and gently share with us, but if it doensn’t hold up to having the light of Scripture shined on it, it should be discarded.
Understand? It’s simply not either/or; you argue your point, and I’ll argue mine and whoever wins is ‘right’. It’s clearly ‘both’, which is one of the most paradoxal points about our Heavenly Father and His Word, and I believe the primary reason there are so many different denominations in the church. We get so emotionally involved with our ‘arguement’ that we end up biting and devouring one another instead of earnestly striving for balance and unity…..
I hope I haven’t bitten or devoured anyone, and I certainly don’t think I have the only handle on truth, but obviously my time on this subject has expired. Ol’ JP always ends up coming out of the woodwork to snap at me…:o)
Blessings,
HOTH
November 23rd, 2007 at 8:07 am
Briefly skimmed your remarks, Joe (dial-up here) … suffice it to say “context” is everything … this is after all the “City Business Church” blog, a PARODY of City Bible Church where the right reverend Frank (3:16) Damazio presides with “It is not by grace that one enters the kingdom of heaven, but by tithing.”
If the model of a bible scholar is the example this blog is set up to parody, then the answer is no, we don’t need them - for as stated in the other (Legalist) thread, they have made a HABIT of going WAY beyond what is written in scripture, making it a mockery and making merchandise of people …
So are we talking about “the way it should be”, i.e., authentic apostolic teaching / order, or, are we talking about the religious products turned out from the schools / traditions of men brought up in institutional churchianity?
Note Joe, the other day I received an interesting email from a brother in Missouri, in response to one of my old tithe articles, wherein he observes that the church meetings today are more in the style of the “apostolic” meeting - the “one man show” - wherein whomever the ’set man’ is, pontificates and then collects the tithe … he observed that the church rarely has a biblical church meeting any more (of the Acts 2 and Acts 4 fellowship / breaking bread type meeting).
It caused me to think about whether or not I would willingly attend an authentic apostolic meeting and listen to the teaching … the answer would be yes - but must also note that I’ve never seen nor experienced such a thing before. Note that I have listened to a few men who claimed to be apostles, and a few who claimed to be prophets, and all of them preached the tithe and a host of other false doctrines that are standard fare of institutionalism … you know - build a building - worship on Sunday from 9-10 - tithe - choirs - ushers, etc.
Honestly, as often as I experience that, I have a check in my spirit, for clearly these men (and women) have sold out whatever truth they have to make money, etc. Not once has the Lord ever given me discernment that someone who claims to be an apostle really is …
So I suppose it comes down to the callings and gifts - the man who stands up in front of the church and preaches - which of the ‘biblical’ hats is he/she wearing? Apostle? Prophet? Evangelist? Teacher? Shepherd (Pastor)? All the above? And if the discernment of someone (like me or HOTH) who is spirit-filled and led is that they are teaching false doctrine, or are erring in the way of Balaam, or being spiritually abusive, then to whom are we to go but Jesus?
My question to you and Dave is, are you espousing an “ideal” Biblical apostolic condition? Or are you addressing churchianity today and suggesting that we need to meet with any body any where that we might be in fellowship / under teaching?
If you are espousing the ideal Biblical apostolic condition, can you point the way to a genuine God-appointed-and-anointed apostle in my area who is holding Biblical apostolic and spirit-led teaching meetings?
Context is everything …
Love you too, Joe. Cigars at my place at 7. 
Jack/Sam/Scrupe
November 23rd, 2007 at 11:59 am
Do Christians need Bible scholars? Yes
For those of you who think that Christians do not need Bible scholars - let me ask you one question: who translated the Bible for you? If Christians did not need Bible scholars then Christians should be able to go and dig up a manuscript and pray for the Holy Spirit to give them impeccable Hebrew and Greek reading skills. So yes, Bible scholars are important.
Secondly, Christians would not need Bible scholars if they were generally more learned. An atheist living in the 18th century would have better knowledge of the Bible, theology, philosophy than the average 21st century pastor. The fact is that most evangelical Christians I come across today can’t even read a commentary. They misuse concordances because they have no idea what they are doing. Furthermore, most Christians (most Americans really) do not understand literature period.
Someone commented earlier and said: “Do cooks need culinary scholars?” or something like that. My response is - all pastors and Bible teachers should have graduate degrees from credible universities, or accomplish similar studies at home (they key word there is ’similar’). I would not go to a heart surgeon who didn’t study scholarly medical material, so why should I go to a pastor who doesn’t study scholarly biblical/theological material?
Happy Thanksgiving!
November 23rd, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Ideally, there would still be God appointed and anointed apostles, teaching from the scriptures and by the Holy Spirit. Said apostles, would lead by example of service in humility - like Jesus, they would lay down their lives for the flock - they would go to the ends of the earth to search out the lost sheep.
Where are they?
As for the “Bible Scholar” - where is that ministry function / gifting in scripture? I count 9 spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:8-10) and 5 ministry functions (Ephesians - Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor/Shepherd, Teacher) - “Bible Scholar” is nowhere to be found.
Concerning the translator(s) of scripture (Hebrew and Greek to English) C.T.P., that should not be confused with the so-called Bible Scholar. We already have dozens of english language translations - some of which have been around for centuries. So what need is there of an expert to explain english language scriptures to english speaking believers?
As for the need of a human teacher - pray tell where Paul got his teaching? Remember, in Philippians Paul stated that all of his previous learning and creditentials were ’skubalon’ (i.e., BS - though the ‘nice’ translations say “rubbish”) compared to the knowledge of Christ Jesus which He gained from Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Even today the Holy Spirit is teaching and leading believers - and the Spirit’s leading is often out of the religious institutions of men. (see 1 John 2:27 and Revelation 18:4).
What I believe I have heard / discern in the gentle under-currents of this post, is the notion that the sheep need to submit to the teaching and leadership of men who are educated in the seminary schools / traditions of men. What troubles me about that is, how many self or institutionally proclaimed ‘Bible Scholars’ have departed from the true gospel and have run head-long into Balaam’s error? Clouds without rain, etc … Is the “Bible Scholar” who simply accepts the status quo of institutionalized religion, which bears little/no resemblance to the scriptures, really a ‘Bible Scholar’? Should such a man be followed - who knows but does not do the word?
It is well and good to discuss the ideals of scripture, but what of the application? If the case could be made for apostolic teaching and order, is there any Church today where scripture is not only preached and believed, but also practiced in apostolic fashion? Or are most/all of them sold out to institutionalism and traditions of men?
Don’t preach/teach the ideals of scripture, and then slip the sheep a counterfeit in the application thereof.
To that end, perhaps we should ask some very pointed questions.
Is Frank Damazio an apostle? Wendell? Judah? Such that they should be teaching and leading the true Church of Jesus Christ?
If “no”, what’s a believer to do - where is a believer to go?
I mean to point no fingers in this post - but am always frustrated by the idealistic positions / preaching, that is never applied. The old “bait and switch” of religion is really lame.
November 23rd, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Joebib,
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Work, family, holidays….
Anyway, you think I’m only in agreement with you and Dave? Please comment on my last point. The one about 80% or more of the population living in the Roman empire being illiterate. Illiterate means you couldn’t read or write, or use study tools. Yet those early Christians set a very high benchmark for our faith. The Apostles had to be stretched quite thin to minister to so many….what did those early Christians have that we seem to lack?
Also, who would have been a ’scholar’ in the early church? The apostle Paul certainly comes to mind, but Peter was a fisherman…some think he may not have been able to write(1 Peter 5:12). Yet Christ gave him the keys to the kingdom! (Matt. 16:19)
I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
November 24th, 2007 at 5:16 am
whatHEsaid–
I was just referring to your statement:
And yes, I believe I am in touch with the concept of what it means to be “illiterate.”
The short answer to your question is, IMO, that the Early Church enjoyed a deeper, purer, relationship with Jesus, as a whole, than most of us do today, partially — I repeat, partially — due to not having to labor under the burden of being cluttered with the accumulated baggage and trappings of 2000 years of institutionalization.
Stuff like jumbo-trons, light-shows, carefully choreographed song-services, water-down, biblically bereft “sermons” based on abstract — even carnal — concepts, and designer-conscious SPs who zoom back and forth between their campuses — and mansions — in luxurious modes of transport which cost their
financiersfollowers millions of their hard-earned dollar$……all of this make it well-nigh impossible for us to experience in our day what those zealous members of the Early Church had operating in their lives.[I could also mention the confusion fostered by the glut of never-ending
per--versions of the Bible that are continually beingvomitedreleased onto the market in our day by themoney-hungryentrepreneurial-minded owners of thesecularpublishing houses parent to companies that print the Bible. Which, for the most part IMHO, serve only to continue the enemy’s work begun in the Garden (see Gen. 3:1ff) of questioning, adulterating, watering down, and finally denying, as planned, the pure Word of God. The effects of this subtle tactic upon the average, non-studious believer of our day can scarcely be overestimated — and I had better get off this lest I pontificate any more.]Another factor that contributes to the greater authenticity of the salvation experience of the average member of the Early Church, to which you allude, is that those who joined their ranks were forced to truly count the cost of their discipleship before becoming a follower of Jesus, mostly due to the Roman and Jewish opposition of that time. I can find no evidence of the Apostles being interested in fostering a massive, seeker-friendly campaign. Quite the contrary (Acts 5:13).
Which is in stark contrast to our method of haphazardly responding to a tear-jerked altar-call, prancing down to aisle to the front of a massive, glitzy auditorium — spotlights a-swirling — and being magically pronounced a “Christian” after chanting — en masse — the latest version of “The Sinner’s Prayer.”
And while some heresy did gradually begin to creep in over those first centuries, the Early Church wasn’t saddled with the burden of having to deal with the plethora, the myriad of false gospels and cults — some say up to 5,000 in America alone — we must attempt to counteract, junk like Mormonism, JWism, Scientology, Moonies, et cetera, ad nauseam, which poison our efforts to present the Message of Jesus to the masses by the surreptitious addition to and/or omission of key points of doctrine and practice.
You mention illiteracy. I really don’t think it was as big a deal as might be supposed that the written canon of the N.T. — including (Sammy) the fine Epistle of James
— was not as yet completed. This is because the message of Jesus, the “Evangelium” — that is the Good News — moved throughout the Roman Empire mainly by kergyma — preaching — and in a very pure form that is nearly impossible to duplicate in our day. I say mainly because the written material for their Message was in the process of being produced by the various N.T. writers. But don’t forget they did have (probably an abundance of) O.T. written material (2 Tim. 4:13) with which to constantly refer, and which the Early Church apparently was in the habit of doing (Acts 17:11).
And don’t think they were limited to just Paul, as you mentioned, as their resident scholar. Remember, they also had the 12 Apostles, not to mention the 70, the 120, as well as the 500, all of which had the witness, and the pure doctrine, of Jesus, received firsthand from His lips, burning in their hearts.
Additionally, they had a fine cadre of “scholars” who traveled among the various local (house) churches, learned ones like Apollos (“mighty in the Scriptures”), Barnabas, who may have written the weighty Epistle to the Hebrews, the educated Luke, whose masterful use of the intricacies of the Greek language was second to none, Timothy, Titus, not to mention Aquila and Prisca, no doctrinal slouches themselves (Acts 18:26).
And those are just some of the more famous ones we know of that are mentioned in Scripture as being fellow-workers with the Apostles. Paul mentioned many others who worked in the spread of the Gospel — probably “apostles” as well — Andronicus, Junias, Urbanus, Tryphaena, Tryphosa, and Persis. And those are just the ones he mentioned in the Epistle to the Romans, alone.
There were undoubtedly many more.
Furthermore, they had the next generation of leaders who were soon to emerge, in the years and decades immediately following the Apostolic Era — men like Polycarp, Clement, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Papias, Origen, and so on — coming up through the ranks.
So you can easily see they were by no means lacking for scholarly input.
Now, I can’t prove it, but I am of the opinion that the Early Church might have actually had an even greater percentage of scholarly clientele in the ranks of their leadership than we do today, if you remember that, what — perhaps anywhere from 75% to 95% of modern leadership? — is tainted by believing in and preaching a false gospel.
Again, I realize we by no means have a corner on the market of heresy in our day, but it was dramatically less in that day. We’re talking several thousands compared to a handful.
Lastly, I would mention that Peter having the “Keys to the Kingdom” is precisely the point. Those door-openers appear to have been used quite effectively in Acts:
I have emboldened some of these “keys” which Peter, and the other Apostles used, those powerful, infallible instruments given to him directly by Jesus Himself.
Thus, he didn’t need to consult a theology book to make sure he was on the right track
I realize I have brushed the above with broad strokes, but hopefully it helps answer your question, wHs.
I trust you had a wonderful holiday as well.
-joebib
P.S. Some “short answer,” huh?
November 24th, 2007 at 6:57 am
Uh, having just read Joe’s post I’m gonna hafta change my position on whether or not Christian’s need Bible schoolers.
We do need Bible schoolers.
For them times when we got insomnia and need some mind-numbing reading marterial to puts us to sleep.
Joe, I tried 3 times to read your post above, and couldn’t make it - 2 paragraphs and !BANG! I was out like a light. With any luck, the imprint of the keyboard on my forehead will disappear before I hafta leave for shopping wit’ the wife.
I plan to stop at Office Max to get one of them soft-keyboards if’n yer gonna keep posting that kinda stuff, Joe.
‘Scrupe
November 24th, 2007 at 7:24 am
I know, dude. It was way too much. I couldn’t even get through it again just now.
I just didn’t want whatHEsaid to think I wasn’t paying attention to his comments (gasp).
Also, I hoped you would acquiesce — as you did — under the weight of all the drivel.
You can pick up one of those softie boards for under 30 bucks. Scored myself one last week trying to get through some of (former C-BUS-C frequenter) TS’s previous posts.
-joe
P.S. BTW, it’s readily apparent I’m no Bible
schoolerscholar. If I was, I’d obviously have a more avid readershipNovember 24th, 2007 at 9:16 am
Hey joe, I LIKED your comment. You said a lot succinctly — with proper punctuation and paragraph breaks even. Thank you for taking the time.
–aspiring bible schooler…..
November 24th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Unscrupulous man said:
Ok. I don’t think that we need Bible scholars every minute of our lives. I don’t think that the Chinese Christian living in a cave with only 5 pages of the Bible needs a scholar. But to neglect the intellectual development of the mind (love your God with all your mind…) is downright wrong and a withholding of worship from God.
There is no gift of “Bible scholar” - that is an anachronism my friend. There is a gift of ‘teacher’ - and I think that does it for me. Paul, could not have done what he did without his theological training.
Yes we do need experts of the English translations to explain them to the English readers because they are TRANSLATIONS - they are interpretations with biased agendas (the NIV has a biased agenda against women for example). There are a lot of problems with translations and experts allow us to revisit the texts in the original languages in order to help explain the English translations.
Just because the Bible is now in English doesn’t mean anything. Our culture is illiterate and lazy. Most Christians read the Bible like a science book or a modern history. Have you ever heard of the “Left Behind” books - that is clear evidence that most Christians cannot understand the Bible.
November 24th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I commend your insight, annie-girl, but it was too much. I just hate it when I go into the lecture-mode drone — the drool scene from Ferris Bueller comes to mind. Would you please grab me by the lapel and shake me soundly next time I start that?
Thanks, Craig the Phil. That nugget gave me quite a hearty laugh. Think I’ll forward it to Dr. LaHaye.
(My nomination for post-of-the-week, BTW)
-joe
November 24th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
I hope he didn’t get that doctorate from Northwest (:
Good to hear from you Joebib. I haven’t been on the blog in a while, but it is good to be back and to have found a topic where we sympathize with one another!
Later
November 25th, 2007 at 5:26 am
Are you inferring that if a person were to receive a(n) (honorary) doctorate from NU, that it would be somehow tainted? Laughable? Or, even a farce?
No, sadly, he got his D.Min. from Western Seminary — back when it was Western Conservative Baptist Theological Seminary — in Portland. And here I thought they were supposed to be a discerning bastion of orthodoxy.
I imagine it’s been a source of embarrassment for them ever since.
He was goofy enough back in the 70s when he was co-authoring marriage/counseling books with his wife, but he really didn’t find his true niche (read: go off the deep end) till he entered the prophecy arena. Proving yet again why simple pastors should leave the weightier matters of theology — including prophecy — to the scholars.
Oops. I suppose I have now gone and violated 1 Chron. 16:22. Don’t tell pope.
You mean I didn’t bring you into the light after our Inerrancy
debatediscussion on your blog? I coulda sworn I had you down for the count, especially after I had timed it for when you were on all those meds.(Reloading my Bible “verse-o-matic” rapid-fire rifle)
-joe
November 25th, 2007 at 8:24 am
I didn’t realize the mind was something to be “developed” so much as it was to be renewed with the mind of Christ …
There are so many questions/observations I have about this issue that leave me unsettled … for example:
Why is it some seek out the title “bible scholar” when Jesus says we are not to take or recognize one another by titles (call no man father or rabbi, etc.)?
Why is it that the title “bible scholar” is bestowed only upon men who have graduated an accredited bible school or the like?
Can someone be ’scholarly’ in the scriptures who has simply spent time in the ’school of the Holy Spirit’?
Why is there such emphasis put upon recorded scripture when the Bible itself records Jesus as saying “my words are Spirit” (John 6:63) and Paul says that it is the things of the Spirit that are taught (1 Corinthians 2:11-16) by the Spirit (1 John 2:27)?
What did the apostles teach? Scripture? The application of scripture? The Spirit? All of the above?
Does exclusive Bible focus come at the expense of the testimony of the saints, about whom scripture says: YOU are the epistle of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:3)?
In a healthy, balanced and mature Church, I believe the study of scripture is but one part of teaching and edifying the Body. The fundamentals of scripture - the milk - should lead to sharing and being nourished by the revelations of the Holy Spirit (that which Paul calls ’strong meat’ subject to discernment (Hebrews 5:14)) and of course studying the ‘epistle of Christ Jesus’ written in my brothers and sisters.
Somewhere, Joe joked about me being of the ’spirit-led-only’ crowd - and I could just as easily joke about him being of the ‘bible-led-only’ crowd.
Suffice it to say (and HOTH already said it), what I feel is missing is balance. If only because degreed bible-scholars have historically been appointed to lead the church and thanks to their teaching from scripture only, without the balance of the Holy Spirit and the testimonies / operative spiritual gifts of the saints, have led the church into the kind of error that produces a Tim LaHaye and “Left Behind”.
Don’t blame “Left Behind” on the church! Blame it on the “bible scholars” who taught LaHaye!
Sam
November 25th, 2007 at 9:02 am
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Well, there are some bad seminaries out there. But I blame the church for not recognizing error… there was a lot of criticism from other scholars but most people ignored that and bought into the market appeal of ‘end time’ fear.
Sam, I think you are right. There must be balance. And yes, someone can become a ‘bible scholar’ (which is not really a title) without going to bible college, but it is hard and requires lots of work. Most people just want the knowledge downloaded to them from the Holy Spirit - the easy American consumer way. Churches in denominations have a head start because they have academic standards, while non-denomers need to find good resources on their own.
For an example of a bible scholar who is quite balanced since he is a bishop too, check out N.T. Wright
November 25th, 2007 at 9:55 am
What I hear you saying CTP, is that the churches ignorance of scripture (no foundation) coupled with failure to discern has opened the floodgates to all sorts of false teaching (yeast) and wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Obviously I am not a ‘Bible scholar’, however, I do commune with the Lord and hear His voice, enough to know that a lot of what is taught in the religious institution is garbage. Like so many, I got to where I couldn’t stomach the tables of Isaiah 28 vs. 8
and left to find that table the Lord has set for me.
Having been led out of the IC 7-8 years ago, I’ve gone through many changes, one of the hardest of which has been loss of religious identity - specifically - worship leader or ‘prophetic voice’ (songwriter / inspirational author) … the Father has stripped all that from me and brought me to the place where I am content to be nothing more / less than a son - recognizing that the Father can at His good pleasure cause any of the various giftings or ministry functions to flow through me - or none at all.
So the entire discussion of whether or not we need so-called “Bible scholars” is irrelevant to me in a way - on the one hand, of course we need those body members who are blessed with scriptural insight. On the other, I find myself wondering why it is necessary for the body to recognize each body type by the function it performs, because it is a sort of ‘type casting’ and relegates a person to being something less than a son or daughter … Lord knows I used to feel that ‘type casting’ as a worship leader / guitar player. I mean - HELLO - I’m much more than a guitar player.
So there is a sense in which this thread is, mmm, kind of ego-centric in that there is an element of special recognition for one function of the body - the teacher / Bible Scholar … yet that is just one function - should we go through and recognize all the other body functions and make a determination whether or not those functions (and persons performing them) are necessary? Heaven forbid!
No doubt there is backlash … having been made a “son of hell” by so-called Bible scholars makes a body “once bitten, twice shy” - and like Joe has observed, my pendulum swung in the other direction and needs to come back to center. To be honest, I can’t listen to the teaching of a Bible scholar without feeling the tug of religious institutionalism - and wonder when the other shoe is going to drop … when will the ‘covering’ doctrine emerge? When will the ‘pay me’ because I ‘teach’ you doctrine emerge?
I’m in the peculiar place of having recorded a couple CDs, having once had a concert ministry, and the Father has told me to do it all for free - impressing strongly upon me the scripture “Freely ye have received, freely give”. So naturally I find myself wondering why my contribution to the body of Christ is something I do for free, while others, most notably the so-called Bible scholars, ask for / expect a payment?
It’s a tough and strange place to be in, Craig - and I really struggle with it at times - I suppose because I long to see more members of the Body giving freely - and not embrace the current system of imbalance.
Jack
November 26th, 2007 at 5:26 am
We all could’ve avoided a lot of ponderous drivel if you’d just’ve fessed up sooner, ’scrupey-doo.
When are you gonna get it dude? I’m always right.
BTW, you get yer concussion checked out yet? Cuz I got lots more of that mind-numbing material
-joe
November 26th, 2007 at 7:16 am
Well Joe, there must be a lots of folk reading yer bible schooler posts back here on account of not one store I visited had any of them soft keyboards! What a blogger do to protect hisself from boring-post-induced narcolepsy?
Anyways, we was shopping in Walmart for one of them singing Christmas trees - when I came around the corner, saw a display of Santa hats and had a epiphany! A good soft hat provides as much head protection as a soft keyboard, and it’s portable! So now when I see one of your long posts, I reach for my hat and start reading. It’s also festive!
So blather away Joe - blather away.
‘Scrupe
November 26th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Yes
Institutionalism is ubiquitous. I felt tugged to the ‘City Church’ institution and found that to be quite harmful. A particular style of worship music might also be something that can be institutionalized. From the negative side this can be a bad thing. But, as a critical thinker I try to avoid falling into the function of ‘Bible Scholar” or of “pastor” or whatever.
The church does not need a bunch of arrogant educated teachers. And neither do we need a bunch of uneducated teachers. This is the problem with most non-denominational churches. Not that I think denominations are God’s intention, but they do provide an accountability that non-denomination churches do not. I attend a Presbyterian church in Seattle. The pastor is a renowned ‘Bible scholar’ but also a great minister who challenges me to follow Christ. Intellect and faith are meant to go together.
November 26th, 2007 at 9:16 am
CTP said,
There is a third choice: humble educated teachers. It might be a bit of an oxy-moron
There’s nothing quite like listening to a teacher who knows the Lord so well — and His word — and is inspired by the Holy Spirit — that you say like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, “didn’t our hearts burn when He opened the Scriptures to us?” Would that there were more teachers like that!! I’ve heard it a few times, and it’s amazing.
November 26th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Joe,
Thanks for the response! I want you to know that I read the WHOLE THING! Some of that was really good. Some of that made me feel like the bald guy that found a comb laying in the street.
In any case, I appreciate Christ in you. You make me think, read the word, and that can’t be bad.
November 27th, 2007 at 5:05 am
Good point, anna. Do let me know if you ever do find one of those rare animals.
By the way, anna, thanks for the favor you did in inadvertently exposing Craig the Phil as espousing the dreaded Cartesian construct.
You may remember he attempted to malign me for doing the very same thing — in a sad, and unsuccessful, ploy to refute my position — in a previous noble discussion, in which I seem to remember you took part, as well. For those who didn’t see the whole sorry exchange, check out the “Does the Bible Contain Any Errors” thread. WGACA dude
BTW — and for the record — my points over there remain unanswered, as the opposition fairly withered under the mighty onslaught of Scripture
Whad I tell ya, Craigy? Sometimes it does seem to come down to only two options.
_______________________________
whatHEsaid —
Maybe it’s the onset of dementia, or perhaps I just need another caffeine fix, but I’m wondering just exactly what is meant by the comb analogy. Is it good or bad?
Thank you for the very kind remarks.
FWIW, there are a lot of posters around here in whom I also see Jesus (2 Cor. 3:3), and who drive me to the Word, as well
-joebib
November 27th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Oooh… dem are some fightin words!
(:
November 28th, 2007 at 8:40 am
joebib said: TW — and for the record — my points over there remain unanswered, as the opposition fairly withered under the mighty onslaught of Scripture
Joe, silence does not always mean lack of response ability; in my case, it is just a lack of time….
November 28th, 2007 at 9:20 am
Sam said:
Do cooks need cookbook scholars? No.
Do mechanics need repair manual scholars? No.
Do Christians need bible scholars? No.
Sam: Personsally, I would rather take my wife out to a restaurant with cooks professionally trained in the culinary arts…When I take my car in to get it fixed in a shop, I like to take it to a shop with certified mechanics…When I need to know what the Hebrew and Greek say in a given Bible passage, I confess, I feel the need to consult professional sources. To me, this kind of thinking just makes a whole lot of common sense. Please understand, as joebib and others have said, that by consulting scholarly sources, I do not disparage personal thoughts from believers. Unfortunately, however, volumes could be written on all of the misleading and quacky stuff coming from sincere believers. Yes, that can happen on both sides of the track: one of the early church fathers castrated himself when he took the words of Jesus literally: “Some have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God’s sake…”
November 28th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Dave, you are citing exceptional circumstances.
Though I have never had a cooking class and have never consulted with an expert, I am a pretty darn good cook, from no more than reading a recipe and following the instructions. Likewise, I’m a pretty fair mechanic and handyman without ever taking a class, but by simply reading a repair manual. Oh I’ve burned a few meals, finished a repair job with a part or 2 left over - but nothing I didn’t learn from and improve or couldn’t fix.
For the average believer, who loves the Lord and endeavors to walk in love, who has read the scriptures