What are you thankful for?
Posted on November 21st, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Pastor Hank categoryJust when I thought I had seen every comment out there, James goes and says this:
All religion, spirituality, and any “just causes” set aside, you are really doing an impressive job at ruining this man “Frank Damazio’s” life. Good luck with everything.
I don't quite know what to say about that….so I'll move on to address another comment from Frustrated:
Let’s say for the sake of argument, that you are right. Frank Damazio is a cheater. He steals and manipulates. He focuses way too much on tithing and leaders and minimizes the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Allow me to set the record straight. I, Johnpaul Morton, do NOT (let me stress the word NOT)…I do NOT believe that Frank Damazio is a cheater. I do not believe that he Steals. I do NOT believe that he does anything illegal. I happen to believe that Frank is deceived. I believe that Satan has worked his way into the American culture so much that he has many pastors (PF et al) believing that God wants them to be wealthy. Their eyes are blind to the truth and they have been distracted from teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This does NOT mean that they cheat or steal. People CHOOSE to give them money of their own free will.
Pastor Frank Damazio of City Bible Church in Portland, OR is not an evil person…he just happens to be mislead. Please pray for him.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
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November 22nd, 2007 at 4:43 am
In answer to the question Pope posed, I find myself being more thankful the older I get. And not just more thankful for things, but also thankful for more stuff. But the thankfulness does seem to center in three areas.
You hear this a lot — often in jest — but I am thankful for my health. I turned 50 this year, and despite the nagging suspicion that at any minute, I’ll awaken from this dream and find I’m really only 23, I see another person looking back at me in the mirror, and he doesn’t look as good as he used to, not that he used to look all that good in the first place. Who is this old guy, anyway? And, even though my body seems to hurt more frequently — and in more places it never used to — than when I was younger, I really can’t complain physically. I hesitate to say “God has blessed me with good health,” because I’ve known wonderful Christians, with better lives and more faith than me, who’ve had to handle the burden of disease or poor health, some of whom have even died, and yet I seem to live a relatively healthy life. I guess all I can say is, “Why me, Lord?”
I’m thankful for my family, that I even have a family. My children are all alive and doing relatively well, and don’t hate me, even after all the years of lectures and I-told-you-sos. Who, thankfully, and for the most part, didn’t do what I did, but rather did what I said to do. I have been blessed with a wife whom I don’t deserve, and who is the best person I know. She picks up after me, and prays for me every day, and when I come home from work and tell her I had a rotten day, she says she’s sorry, and I can see in her eyes that she means it. She knows all my flaws, all my hypocrisies, all the things I try to keep hidden. And loves me anyway. I don’t even know why God has given her to me, unless it’s just that he wanted me to experience His love in person.
But, most of all, I’m thankful for my salvation, or better put, God’s salvation in my life. I shudder to think of where I would be, and what I would be doing, without Him choosing to reach down and save me. Each year the atonement of Jesus for my sins gets more precious to me. I love all those big, theological words — election, justification, imputation, impartation, ransom, remission, redemption, regeneration — that the Bible says He did for me. The little ones, too, like love and grace and mercy. The idea that the Creator of this whole universe, Almighty God Himself, would take the time to look down at me, and see inside of me to what I really am, beyond the veneer, beyond the holy-looking appearance which I put up to fool the world around me, and love me in spite of it all. And then make the decision — knowing What it would cost Him — to put all that junk and filth upon His own sweet Son, to pay my debt, and sacrifice Him in my place, for my dirty sins.
After over 30 years, it still blows my mind man.
Happy Thanksgiving all.
-joe
November 23rd, 2007 at 2:00 am
I appreciate you clearing that up. I didn’t come to that conclusion on my own though so perhaps you should make that clear in all your other posts as well. This is a post that will bring change, not just cause people to disrespect CBC, PF, and maybe even in turn Christians and all churches. I neither disagree or agree with this post. That is a first for me on this blog.
With that said, I would like the opportunity to share what I am thankful for.
1) God’s grace, mercy, and unconditional love: From the day I was saved to the life I live now, to the life I’m going to live, I would be no where or have nothing if it were not for these things. I am thankful that this is who God is. I am thankful because I would never be able to earn them. I am thankful that God is all I need.
2) People God has placed in my life: My family and friends are amazing. They bless me so much and I can’t thank God enough for each one of them.
3) Where God has placed me: this includes PBC, my hometown, and my future in Africa. These are the places I know God has (or will) place me and am deeply grateful that God has given me such a privilege. I couldn’t imagine a better school than PBC, it has brought me so far and changed me so much for the better. I love my home town and church and it is definitely home, it is where I fit perfectly. I can hardly fathom that God would allow me to venture off to Africa and have the opportunity to bring hope to those people.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reflect and share. I would be interested to hear what you are thankful for Johnpaul Morton.
November 25th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
“I happen to believe that Frank is deceived. I believe that Satan has worked his way…so that he has many pastors believing that God wants them to be wealthy. Their eyes are blind to the truth and they have been distracted from teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
I happen to believe this is a pile of ‘Christianese’ bullsh*t.
I am so tired of using ‘acceptable’ words like “deceived” “distracted” “blinded to the truth”… blah blah blah. It’s all just a way to avoid making someone ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
Deceived? Hardly. Willfull is a better word. What’s worse? Stealing or manipulating? I happen to believe preaching lies is worse than if he stole money straight out. And the truth is… if what we see is the “fruit”… I shudder to think what’s going on under the surface. There are things no one even knows about.
The TRUTH is… there is not a step of the journey to which their conscience and the Holy Spirit does not bear witness of their actions, whether they are righteous or not. Their hearts may be “hardened”, but hardly “deceived”. And if they are in such a state, it is because it has been “chosen”. REPEATEDLY. The apple’s been taken off the tree a few hundred times.
I usually love your posts Reformed Pope. But this one smelled funny. Like you were apologetic, trying to nicefy the truth. You don’t need to. I’ve been involved with these churches for a number of years and manipulation and control are some of the scariest sins on the planet, if you ask me. At the root of money is a love of power and control, and it hardly matters to me if they take people’s money. What scares me is the way they control lives. And for that, there is no “deception”… just a love of glorification that seemingly everyone in MFI seems to get swept away by… service only in the path to glory… submission in the search for domination.
I don’t think they’re deceived.
Deceived implies a lack of accountability.
And let’s stop blaming Satan and look a little closer to home.
Like within ourselves for where the sin begins.
November 25th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Its also a way to avoid libel lawsuits.
November 26th, 2007 at 4:37 am
IT, I can definitely relate to where you are coming from in being frustrated at hearing something over and over. I think we all can.
Still though, I feel you’re not giving pope’s position a fair shake.
I think he’s merely attempting to state his opinion in a measured way without giving the impression he’s only out to rip someone apart with a lot of overly-harsh terms and accusations. Others have taken exception to what he has been saying, and I think he has been expressing it — his concern over what he sees as error — rather well lately.
I’m sure you would agree than our being tired of hearing something, perhaps all too often for our own sensibilities to bear, really has no bearing on whether it is nevertheless true, or not.
To focus in on just one of the terms you have an issue with — deception — there’s nothing wrong with using the word. The NT uses it quite frequently in regard to ministry, which can be easily verified by consulting the nearest concordance.
One could just as easily level a similar charge against Paul, who in all of his epistles is constantly harping on the theme of finding grace through faith in Jesus. Or, against James, for pushing works, works, works. Or, against John, for just love, love, love everybody. You see my point
Doesn’t seem to me you are giving the concept of “deception” a fair shake, either. In my view, being deceived and making deliberate choices there from go hand in hand, back and forth, and take turns building upon one another. Who can really tell for sure which took place first?
In answer to your theory of deception being opposed to accountability, notice that Paul seems to impose a greater consequence upon Eve for being deceived in 1 Tim. 2:11-15, than upon Adam for making a deliberate choice. Thus, I don’t think your take on being deceived, as being mutually exclusive with accountability, can be supported biblically.
FWIW, pope’s reply was surely not flippant. You may or may not be aware of this, but I believe the mods have had definite legal overtures made to them in regard to this blog.
Now, don’t think I’m out to defend pope because we’re pals. Quite the contrary, he and I have butted heads quite a bit around here, usually because he’s wrong and I’m right.
*Clearing throat*
Just sayin.
-joebib
November 26th, 2007 at 7:40 am
You raise a good question. Is Frank purposefully manipulating people to give him money? Or does he actually believe in the prosperity doctrine? (I would love to know how much money he has given to Faith Harvest.)
I’ll be honest, I don’t know the answer. But I tend to agree with you that we don’t hold our pastors with the same level of accountability that we hold the rest of the world.
November 26th, 2007 at 8:30 am
If I didn’t think it would induce narcolepsy, I’d be inclined to read up on the psychology of deception. It isn’t as simple as Frank willfully leading people astray with the prosperity doctrine …
Scripture tells of a time when people with itching ears will heap teachers unto themselves according to the lusts of their flesh. Translation: people seek out teachers who preach what they want to hear. Where the god of this world is mammon, those who serve mammon seek out teachers who can tell them how to put mammon-god to work for them, i.e., “give it money and it will give back.” Such a teacher is really just giving people what they demand.
November 26th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Icy, you make some good points — and I love your new word: nicify.
I’d just like to add a couple of things to think about. Let’s say that SPFD (et.al. — he’s not the only one, in other words) wakes up one day and realizes that he has been deceived/disobedient. If he decides to repent, he will also have to overcome pride and fear.
That would be a big blow to ego to admit to the whole church that you were wrong. Then, since the system is run on the old premise, the whole system would have to be overhauled.
Actually this would require a BIG step of faith… but we don’t hear about this kind of faith on a church-wide scale. I mean, we always hear about the widow of Zerapath (sp?) as encouragement for our own supply, why not a church living this way by example?
When ones livelihood depends upon the status quo, it would take a very huge step of humility and faith to change it — and it would require a joint effort from all involved. With God all things are possible, but that’s about the only way it will come about.
November 26th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
First, I’d like to see the scriptures that talk about deception… other than specifically related to Eve. Find me one that portrays (or excuses) the participant as a victim.
Second… even though Eve was “deceived” in the garden… there was something more nefarious at the root of that deception. A desire for knowledge to put her at a level with God. So even though she was ‘tricked’, the deception wasn’t sin. The choice to disobey was. And I say the greed at the root of that choice is the real problem here.
I guess I don’t have a problem with someone being deceived. I just don’t think it’s the point, and I don’t think it’s an excuse either, which it too often gets used as. Whether or not he believes in the prosperity teaching or not doesn’t really matter. I think there are deeper things going on, related to power and control, and the money/tithing/whatever is just the surface of that root.
Or let’s talk in terms of “self-deception”, in which persons willfully ignore the truth until they believe their own lies. It’s willfull in the beginning stages. After that, it seems to be momentum. They couldn’t face the truth if they wanted to, because their entire system of operating in God would come crashing down and they’d be left with nothing. They’d rather live their illusions than deal with that kind of self-betrayal.
The only deception, in my opinion, to be exonerated is the listeners who honestly believe their doctrine, being too simple to know any better. For them, I think God takes their faith where it’s at, and leads them on to the truth, from deception to enlightenment.
And JoeBib, even the verse you quote from Timothy strengthens this opinion. The deceive”ers” are already written off as evil men. Going from bad to worse, and from that point on, they are deceived and deceive concurrently.
But they’ve already crossed a line of judgement by their choices. We’re not supposed to think them innocent anymore.
And so I don’t. And I don’t have any problem with saying so.
November 27th, 2007 at 8:23 am
Not to steal your thunder, but I think I’ve made this point before. This is exactly the problem regardless of whether or not they truly believe in tithing and the prosperity teachings. They’ve done it for so long, as Anna says, that it would turn their entire system upside down to change it. They would have to risk everything to change course.
It is my opinion that they truly do believe the things that they teach. They are “deceived” but not in the sense that they are unwilling victims. These are men who have studied the Scriptures for decades, and have willfully chosen which teachings to believe. But to address IT’s point, I don’t think they set out in the 70’s, as hippy Jesus freaks, to create a system whereby they could finance megachurches - I’m pretty sure they really wanted to see people saved, etc. But as the old saying goes, “power corrupts”, and it is a long slippery slope of pride that has led to their straying from the Gospel. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that those who are the biggest advocates of their teachings are the ones at the top of the food chain. Those who remained unaffected, and perhaps protested, were the ones who seemed to receive little benefit. One only has to look at the chain of hirings and firings of elders and PBC teachers to see the pattern. But I digress, as my point is that, yes, they are deceived, but got there a little at a time and not all at once. I am not capable to judge how God will deal with them regarding this, but it is nevertheless our duty to shine the light of truth in these matters.
November 28th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
I really don’t think that these people are deceived at all. They know exactly what they are doing. Most of them are well trained educated scholars of Theology. They know how to manipulate and use scripture to support any idea or program they want. In place of the word deceived, I submit, “twisted”. Yeah, twisted theological thinking. They have seen how lucrative and easy it is to mass fortunes without being accountable to anyone.
Enter Senate investigations and IRS. Oh, won’t Satan love this?
But, just perhaps, we could be entering a time that the church as it has become is going to devour itself via. all the internal greed and moral corruption that has become synomous with church identification. Whow !!!
Enter God ! Hopefully this will be a time He will restore his people back to the “gathering together of the saints” as was initially created.
How wonderful that would be! Good to think about.
November 28th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
dbh, did you know that the Hebrew word “iniquity” comes from a root that means twisted? And that Ezek. 28:15 uses that word to describe what happened to the individual written about? Just a thought.