(and they love alliteration)

I've been thinking about Former's comments and I wanted to share a couple of thoughts. People that attend these "prosperity churches" have a few things beat into their head over and over and over again until they take it in as gospel. There is no balance of teaching.  While I was at CBC I had all the same lines down:

"Some people have a Poverty Mentality that keeps them from receiving the blessings of God. If you don't want to be blessed that's your decision, but I am believing in the promises of God."

"Jesus spent more time talking about money than any other subject…even more than Heaven and Hell."

I feel bad for people who are stuck in this mindset, people that trust their pastors so much that they believe all the junk comes from the pulpit…without bothering to research things for themselves. Fortunately, the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is obvious for anyone willing to study the Bible for themselves (and by study, I don't mean look up the word ‘blessing' in a concordance and read all the relating scriptures). But "Prosperity Artists" don't seem to care what the Bible says; they only want to focus on the "positive sides". Week after week they drill you with the same garbage. City Bible Church spends an average of 1 in every 4 sermons teaching on giving the church money. Most of the rest of the messages are about other ways to "get God to bless or honor you". Can anyone deny how self-centered this doctrine is?  I listen to sermons by these guys and I want to scream out "being a Christian ISN'T about what God can do for you! It should be about what you can do for God" But No, week after week, the same focus on self.

Should this be the main focus of a Christian's life? Should this be what we spend Sunday after Sunday learning? Is there a precedent set in the Bible that tells us to live our life looking for Personal Prosperity…even if our end goal is to use it to bless others?

Jesus may have spent more time teaching about money than any other subject, but the majority of His teachings were warnings of the danger of money. And when I hear people say "I want to be blessed so I can be a blessing" or "You can't give what you don't have" I cringe because it's obvious that they have it backward. Money isn't bad, it's the LOVE of money that gets people in trouble…and yet Prosperity Teachers say that you NEED money to help others. Why? If the end goal really is to help others (which I believe is Biblical) then just do it.

I like all the formula talk lately, so here's another. Prosperity Teacher's have this equation:

Christian + God's Blessing = Financial Prosperity = Helping others.

That formula just doesn't work…there is an extra = sign that shouldn't be there. Go ahead and take one out and you either end up with a LOVE of money:

Christian + God's Blessing = Financial Prosperity

 or you get the formula the way God set it up:

Christian + God's Blessing = Helping Others

God's "Blessing" can be many things (which may include money, btw), but the only guaranteed blessing is Eternal Life. And quite frankly, that should be all you need to help others. Those of you who say "I can't give what I don't have" let me ask you this:

What one thing are you missing from your life that keeps you from giving to others? What is it that God is withholding from you that prevents you from being a blessing to others? Honestly, say your answer out loud…write it down on this blog…what is it? What do you need?

We live in a very "blessed" nation, what are you lacking? What is keeping you from spending 1 night a week in a soup kitchen? What keeps you from going to the Children's hospital to read books to the sick? Why can't you go mow your old neighbor's lawn?

Any doctrine that says "you can't help others until you help yourself is clearly selfish…and I just don't see Jesus Christ as setting a self serving example. Instead He gave up everything.

There is always someone who has a bigger need than you do…quit waiting for a magical blessing from God and go out and help them…then you will see the true "blessings" God has in store for your life. One thing we all can give is time…I don't care who you are, if you prioritize your life according to God's Word, then you would have time to "bless others"…and that is the best thing you can give.

Giving money is easy…and not all that effective…try giving your time to someone in need and see what God does.

I stole this headline from CNN, because I love that they use "bitter" and "prosperity" in the title. I guess it IS okay to be bitter, you know, if your pastor is ripping you off.

Excerpts from this fantastic article:

And so the 53-year-old accountant from the Tampa, Florida, area pledged $500 a year to Joyce Meyer, the evangelist whose frank talk about recovering from childhood sexual abuse was so inspirational. She wrote checks to flamboyant faith healer Benny Hinn and a local preacher-made-good, Paula White.

Only the blessings didn't come. Fleenor ended up borrowing money from friends and payday loan companies just to buy groceries. At first she believed the explanation given on television: Her faith wasn't strong enough.

"I wanted to believe God wanted to do something great with me like he was doing with them," she said. "I'm angry and bitter about it. Right now, I don't watch anyone on TV hardly."

The silver lining to the upcoming US recession is that more people are going to realize that God doesn't necessarily want them to be rich.

The article continues:

The modern-day prosperity movement can largely be traced back to evangelist Oral Roberts' teachings.

That explains Frank's obsession with wealth.

Critics acknowledge the idea that God wants to bless his followers has a Biblical basis, but say prosperity preachers take verses out of context. The prosperity crowd also fails to acknowledge Biblical accounts that show God doesn't always reward faithful believers, Palmer said.

The Book of Job is a case study in piety unrewarded, and a chapter in the Book of Hebrews includes a litany of believers who were tortured and martyred, Palmer said.

One of my first posts on this blog was a study in the life of Job. 

If you want to believe in the Prosperity Doctrine, fine, go for it. But you're going to be a very disappointed person. A much better "Doctrine" to follow is the "Job Doctrine".

"Naked I have come from my mothers womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." - Job 1:21

(H/T to Locutus)

We get questions, lots and lots of questions:

I moved to San Diego in 2004 from the East Coast and started attending the City Church plant in San Diego. I left with my husband in July of 2006, leaving my 2 teenage girls there because they were so involved with Generation Church. I went back in April of 2007 to be supportive of my girls, but left about one month ago because I felt they were in grave error.

You don’t know how many times I read the posts on this blog to confirm what I always thought about the City Church. I would not post while I was attending there because I felt that would be unfair to church or my kids. I really wanted to go back with the right attitude and give it another try which I felt I really did.

I have a question regarding the pastor’s salaries.

Those pastors in a church plant, are their salaries paid by the mother church in Seattle?

Do any of these MFI churches ever reveal the church’s finances to the body of believers? My general opinion of all MFI churchs are that they are are a dusted-off, revived version of the 1970s discipleship movement of the Charismatic movement.

Also, is there anyone else out there who has left the church only to leave teenagers behind in Generation Church?

Any readers know the answer to these questions?

A reader sends in this link to a church budget. 

The Evergreen Community, a church in Portland, Oregon, posted their entire 2008 budget on the website.

As the readers says, "utterly refreshing".

But I would also add, "extremely effective". The pastor breaks it down to show that every adult pays $16 a month to support the church. If I was a member, I suspect I might chip in $20 next month, just to help them out a little more. 

In my opinion, trust is a more effective form of fundraising than guilt or fear.

Update: I guess the $16 isn't what the church makes per congregation member, but is instead what the pastor is looking for in an increase. Still, knowing that the church is being completely open with their financing somehow makes me much more comfortable giving them my money.

I just want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. 

I wish I had some fun insightful comment to throw in here, but I don't. So, I just hope you have a great day.

I've thought a lot about the subject of God ordaining evil over the past week…and what I decided was that I don't have the answers…it's all a little confusing for me. I would, however, still like to continue this discussion.

For starters, this whole concept of God Ordaining Evil is obviously offensive to some, but the problem is that no-one has been able to tell me where "evil" came from. Now, maybe we should just refer to it as "the mystery of iniquity" and say we don't know where evil came from…which I could accept, but that doesn't really help this discussion…so I'd still like someone to take a stab at explaining how God can be all powerful and the Creator of the world and yet take no responsibility for "evil" showing up.

One of the most interesting parts of this discussion for me is the issue of trusting a loving God. When I sit back and say "God is the author of all the good, bad, and ugly on this earth and I have no way of knowing His plan and purpose due to the fact that I am an ignorant fool in comparison to His great glory" it makes me feel comforted…comforted to know that there is a reason and a purpose that I may not understand…but by faith I can believe that God will work all this out for his own Glory.

Others seem to be saying, "How can you have peace and trust in a God who would ordain such evil".

Here's where I am at: This world is NOT about me, and it's NOT about you…or anyone else for that matter. We are simply here to bring Glory to God, and when I hear people say, "It's not in God's nature to ordain evil", I say "Who are you to say what is and what is not in God's nature?" There have been many scriptures listed that show "God's nature" being one of wrath and anger in which He clearly ORDAINS a lot of horrible sounding things (at least horrible in our human reality)…but do any of us want to stand before God and tell Him what He should and should not do?

It sounds to me like we want to apply our ideals to God when maybe, just maybe, God is bigger than we can even imagine. For instance, we define "love" as "a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person"; we than see that the Bible claims that "God is Love" therefore God must exibit "a profoundly tender and passionate affection for mankind"…but who are we to tell God what Love is?

Should we apply our limited knowledge to a limitless God?

I'm not sure if I am being very clear at all or if I've just lost my mind…last night, Negro-D said to me "This is really a conversation that should be had over beers…it's to complex to discuss in this forum"…and I think he's right. Still, it's fun to try.

Let me leave you with a few comments from a man who amazes me every time I read his stuff:

John Piper, over at http://www.desiringgod.org/ has this to say in an article discussing "Open Theism":  

But in reality our pain and losses are always a test of how much we treasure the all-wise, all-governing God in comparison to what we have lost. We see this merciful testing of God throughout the Scriptures. For example, in Deuteronomy 8:3 Moses said, "And [God] humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord." In other words, God ordains the hard times ("he . . . let you hunger") to see if good times are our god. Do we love bread, or do we love God? Do we treasure God and trust his good purposes in pain, or do we love his gifts more, and get angry when he takes them away?

We see this testing in Psalm 66:10-12, "For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water." And we see it in the life of Paul. When he prayed for his thorn in the flesh to be taken away Christ told him what the purpose of the pain was. "Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness'" (2 Corinthians 12:8-9). The test for Paul was: Will you value the magnifying of Christ's power more than a pain-free life?

We see this testing in 1 Peter 1:6-7, "In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, as was necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith - more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire - may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." God ordains trials to refine our faith and prove that we really trust his wisdom and grace and power, when hard times come. Similarly in James 1:2-3, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. . . . Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." Do we love God? That is the point of the test. Do we cherish him and the merciful wisdom of his painful purposes, more than we cherish pain-free lives? That is the point of God's testing.

Our trials reveal the measure of our affection for this earth - both its good things and bad things. Our troubles expose our latent idolatry.

For those who believe that God rules purposefully and wisely over all things, our response to loss is a signal of how much idolatry is in our souls. Do we really treasure what we have lost more than God and his wisdom? If we find ourselves excessively angry or resentful or bitter, it may well show that we love God less that what we lost. This is a very precious discovery, because it enables us to repent and seek to cherish Christ as we ought, rather than being deceived into thinking all is well.

Oh, and David Mackin, I'm sure you've got good reasons to keep silent on this subject, but I'm just dying to know…what are your thoughts?

WhatHEsaid wrote: there is Sister Sue (name changed)… "I just read an article on CNN about her. She thinks I-35 highway through Texas is the road Isaiah was speaking of in chapter 35:8. Could I suggest a thorough reading of John 4:21-23? What is it about these OT prophet type ministries that makes them think certain places are “God spots”? I wonder what the $$$ angle will be on this."

WhatHEsaid: Great point about John 4:21-23 quashing the antiquated OT purity system idea, carried over in most religions (even Evangelical and Charismatic ones who promote Holy Land tours to “walk where Jesus walked”), of “holy sites,” “holy land” – the issue of sacred space.

Also great question about sacred space and the money angle! Anecdotally, if people could claim a divine revelation at the top of a mysterious mountain and then charge people money to come in and see the “exact spot” where the divine being appeared to them, they could start a new religion, proclaim themselves the new high priest, and make lots of money. Historically, Joseph Smith was able to make money and build a large denomination by using “Thus saith the Lord” prophecies to appoint a specific land for his followers. His “New Zion” eventually became the state of Utah. As I’ve been reading Mormon doctrine lately, it is literally full of claimed prophetic utterances from Joseph Smith. Did any of his church members ever seriously question his utterances of “revelation knowledge?”

In my view, the money angle is quite obvious when it comes to the preachers on some Christian television stations saying something like this, which I have heard many times: The Spirit quickened Psalm 78:12 to me for this meeting! He’s telling me that if you sow your financial seed of $78.12 to this ministry every month for this next year, he’s going to abundantly bless you!

I cannot speak to what may or may not be motivating Sister Sue, but in charismatic circles, “credibility” is many times based on claiming prophetic insights not only about the future but from the mundane life around you; the birds on the wire mean this, the rocks by the creek speak thus, the rainbow…the darkening eclipse…the falling stars…the moon turning to blood, etc. Thus, the more prophetic “insights” one has, the more credibility one gains (in certain circles anyway), the more credibility, the greater the following, the greater the following, the more invitations to conferences and thus more honorarium income and book sales. (Who speaks at a conference and does not bring their books and CDs to sell?)

In charismatic circles, since education and degrees are minimized in importance, so are intellectual approaches to the Bible, e.g., Hebrew, Greek, cultural background, historical scholarship, etc. Thus, some other phenomenon has to come in to fill the knowledge vacuum. Many times it is: “revelation knowledge!” I’ve heard many a TV preacher use this exact phrase in their preaching.

Christians need a good course in hermeneutics (the art and science of how to interpret the Bible). In my view, pastor/leaders, however, will not be interested in teaching such a course to their congregations lest God’s people get the tools to question what they hear on Sunday mornings! So, we are back to pastor/kings protecting their castle-domains again.

I don’t know whether this is true or not, but I was told that one pastor in our area stopped inviting Sister Sue to conferences at his church because she was prophesying over too many women in the church about how they were going to be sent “around the world for God.” If true, this could be quite unsettling for a pastor, especially when one promotes the idea that the “biblical  way” to be “sent out” is through the approval of the elders of one’s local church - and maybe asking for their financial support, too?! Monetary support, of course, translates into control. 

Charismatics also need to grow in their discernment and learn to test prophecies (I Thess. 5:21). Bob Jones and Larry Randolph (author of User-Friendly Prophecy) predicted in November of 2006 that there would be a great supernatural breakthrough on June 6, 2007.  It was to be a “crossing over into the Spirit realm” leading to great success and power in the Church (Supernatural Infusion Conference, Albany Vineyard, Albany, OR, Nov., 2006). Did it happen? I don’t know. People could seem to “prove it” or “disprove it” depending on what tiny part of the world they wanted to highlight… 

(For more on how the Bible is being used as a fund-raising mechanism see my article on this blog, A Pastor’s Black Bag of Tricks.)

On the other hand, some have made the opposite mistake of thinking that there is some special merit in being poverty stricken and have taken pride in that. As long as we are seeking our value in what we have or do not have on this earth, we do not understand God's purposes. God can choose to prosper with material wealth, or He can choose not to. Our focus needs to be on Him and His purposes for us—whether we are rich or poor. Since we are His, all that we have is also His, to be used for His purposes. Jesus tells all of us, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:19-21).

I just want to say thank you to everyone who offered to help Rory and Bethany Blumenschein. I heard from her brother that the outpouring of support was amazing, and on some days they had over 30 people helping clean up the house and property.

Here is a short clip KWG did on Rory and Bethany.

Again, thank you so much for all of your help.

caj recently made this comment on another post:

 I will, however, have to differ from your thoughts about God ordaining EVERYTHING that happens in this world. I believe that this world is a fallen place, and is currently under the control of the evil one. 1 John 5:19 tells us, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." In Luke 4:5-6, Jesus is being tempted by satan, "And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, I will give You all this domain and it's glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

We are aliens here, representing another kingdom. We should be showing this world what things would be like if Christ was in control. His complete control will come later, as described in Revelation 10:15, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Bad things can and do happen, that are not the will of God. This is why we should pray daily not to be led into temptation and to be delivered from the evil one. (The Lords' Prayer) We are at war here, and behind enemy lines. We suffer and take casualties, but they are not all from God's hand. (He does prune and chastise His own, but I don't include murder, rape, torture as being from Him)

This was in regards to my comment:

The peace that comes from knowing Jesus helps when you fully understand that everything (and I mean everything) that happens in this world is ordained (or allowed) by God. The good, the bad, and the in-between all happen with God's permission. The devil can NOT interfere with God's plans for this life.

This could good lead to a good discussion so let me state my case (I tend to believe that God has ordained ALL that happens in this earth).

IF you believe that God is the Supreme Being who created the heavens and the earth (as I believe most Christians do) then you simply must believe that God created evil (as we know it). If God did not create "evil" where did it come from? Satan? Well, where did Satan come from?

If God is not at the very least "allowing evil" (and yes, Negrodamus, I am punking out here) then you would have to believe that Satan (representing evil) has been around as long as God has and was not created by Him…and if you follow that logic, then it would tend to give Lucifer a lot more power than we currently give him.

Here's the way I see it. God is all mighty and all powerful and has offered away of salvation through the death of Jesus on the cross. All I have to do is believe in Him and I will be saved. Part of the believing is accepting that He is God and I am not. I know a very limited amount about this world, about life, and I know even less about the Spiritual world, but I trust that God in heaven has things under control Things that might not make any sense to me are still going to be a part of God's master plan. I do not believe that Satan can frustrate the will of God in any way, therefore when I hear horrible stories of Murder, Rape, and Torture, I know that it is all part of God's plan. You can call me crazy if you want, but you're going to have to explain to me how someone can create EVERYTHING and yet not be responsible for the bad that happens.

And so I say, "Everything that happens in this world is ordained by God" (no punk out there).

But, just for argument sake, allow me to take a step back and cover the "allowed" portion. Even if we come up with a way to disprove that God "ordains" the evil in this world, we still have to address the issue of God "allowing" it to happen…I believe they call it "permissive will".

Once again, we have to start by acknowledging that God is the Supreme Being who is ALL POWERFULL. By being All Powerful it gives God the ability to do whatever He wants to with this earth (again, I believe most Christians would agree with this statement). Therefore, if God has the ability to put an end to evil, yet chooses not to, then He is at the very least allowing it to happen.

Imagine that you are sitting on a park bench one sunny morning, minding your own business, reading the local paper and imagining how much better college football would be if they had a playoff system. A woman in an electric yellow Oregon Ducks sweat suit jogs by. As you watch her continue down the path in front of you there suddenly appears another man who grabs here and wrestles her to the ground in an attempt to rape her. Instantly you realize that you are holding a gun, a knife, and a baseball bat, and that the rapist is completely unarmed and quite frankly not much of a man at all. You notice that it would be no problem at all for you to stop him, but instead you stand by quietly…allowing him to continue.

It would be my opinion that you are just as responsible for that rape as the rapist is.

And finally, if you look at the God of the Old Testament you will see a God that has a different set of moral values than we do today. If God were around today, directing His people to do the things they did in the OT, we would not like Him very much at all and would likely call Him evil. God constantly had the Israelites take over cities and kill "man, woman, child and oxen". Not cool.

Unless of course you understand that God knows better than you do.

This, of course, is just one man's opinion…and that one man has no formal Bible training whatsoever. Feel free to disagree…but if you do, watch out for Negrodamus, he might just put you in your place.