Another church under investigation?
Posted on December 4th, 2007 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryNPR has a great wrap-up of Senator Grassley's investigation into Megachurch financing.
The report also includes this little tidbit of new information:
Since Grassley began seeking answers from the churches a few weeks ago, someone approached his staff with new information, that, "an individual always had to stay in a presidential suite when he traveled, and that the cost could be as high as $5,000," Grassley said. "Maybe that's not illegal, but it may raise questions about whether it's the right expenditure of money."
This investigation is not over. I suspect it is just beginning.
If you've got information to share with Senator Grassley, feel free to contact him here.
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December 4th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I hope they are looking into Larry and Tiz Huch (New Beginnings.org) . . I left that church because all they ever did was ask for money. . now they are in DFW asking for money there and you can even donate right online. Flashy pastors and I question their motivation. ($$$)
December 4th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
kmarie: did you send your concern about the huchs to senator grassley per catalyst above? According to one former member, Larry Huch lost $1,000,000.00 in the stock market and came before the congregation and apologized for it. Since when do sr pastor’s have such a right? Unbelievable.
catalyst: your direct link to grassley’s office (above) is a great idea; I want to learn how to do something like that myself sometime…thanks!
here is what i sent to senator grassley:
Dear Senator Grassley: As you research the use of funds of both local church and para-church ministries, if you have not already, please include in your research the following shocking Dateline NBC transcripts on the multi-million dollar ministry of Benny Hinn. I obtained them for a small fee from Burrelle’s Information Services, LLC, Box 7, Livingston, New Jersey, 07039.
The two transcripts are:
(1) NBC News, No. 1504, Dateline NBC, December 27, 2002.
(2) NBC News, No. 1750, Dateline NBC, March 6, 2005.
If anyone has ever wanted solid evidence and many quotable quotes against the Prosperity Doctrine, you will find a lot in these sources!
December 4th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
I haven’t yet but I will, I saved the link that was provided.
Thanks!
Are there any local churches (medium - large) that don’t preach the Prosperity Doctrine? Just curious. . . I haven’t found any.
December 4th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Kmarie: I can’t speak for all the churches, but many churhes have resisted the Prosperity Doctrine. Praise God!
Relatedly, I discovered to my amazement that some pastors have actually rescinded their former teachings on the mandatory tithe and released their congregations from that legalistic bondage. Great news!
My guess is, however, that most of the pastors are probably those of the smaller churches with the smaller monthly overheads. It would take a whole lot of faith to do so in a megachurch. John MacArthur pastors a megachurch, however, and, from I understand, does not require tithing from his people because he doesn’t teach it as a “doctrine.” (Someone please correct me if I’m wrong here because this was what someone told me.)
December 7th, 2007 at 7:03 am
REVALATIONS,
Letter to,
Kenneth and Gloria Copeland,
Before knowledge of, KCM, BVOV, GLORIA’S HEALING SCHOOL, and EMIC, our lives were simple, and complete. Before BVOV, faith had no mathematical values, you was never told you had to little, or to much. Before BVOV, sickness was not blamed on lack of faith, nor finances. Before BVOV, rewording, or falsifying bible verses, well, before our knowledge of prosperity gospel (materialistic Christian belief: the doctrine taught in some Christian groups that God will grant wishes to the faithful, especially those wishes involving material wealth .Encarta ® World English Dictionary), this act was unheard of, tithes received during collection were used for the upkeep of our church, parsonage, cemetery, and exedra, the exedra was legit. Before BVOV, I had a mother, faith, finances, piece, and a belief in God I never questioned for there was no reason to. My personal thanks goes out to both you and Gloria, prosperity gospel truly is a life changing experience!
The first time I tried to contact (BVOV) was back in 2004, a few months after the death of my mother (Bonnie Parker) who was a long time partner of your ministry, since 1995 to be exact. That’s a lot of faithful years is it not. And now what began as a simple request for answers over two years ago, is now national news. Though I made many efforts to contact you, none of which were successful. (Mail, Email, , Phone, and even visiting Eagle Mountain Church personally) We were in Dallas for the filming of a documentary (Suffer the Children sufferthechildren.com)which was being funded, and produced by director Trever Glass. The film was to show, from the victims point of view, the tragic abuse, suffering , and fraudulent behaviors preformed by certain mega church ministers, mainly focusing on the prosperity gospel ministers. I was asked if I would like to visit EMIC, and take a tour of the massive facilities. Nervously I said yes. Was I finally going to be given the chance of speaking with either of you? With a copy of the original letter, and pictures of mom before, and after BVOV, tucked safely in our backpack we began the tour that would leave me with even more questions than answers. The tour guide was very nice, and very informative. She had not a clue that with every gloating word she spoke, I was fighting back the tears they were bringing. Were the trophies you have proudly displayed at EMIC, acquired on these trips? Did you pay to have them stuffed, or did the church catch that bill for you? There I was standing in the maculate office, (by the way, how much did that high dollar office furniture set you or the ministry back), of the very people I felt were most responsible for my mothers death. No you didn’t put a gun to her head, but your guidance did prove to seal her fate. I do highly recommend this tour to all your partners that contribute to this lifestyle you both so take advantage of. Nor you or Gloria were present the day we dropped by, but I left the letter, and photos with an employee of EMIC. John Copeland called me a few day’s after we toured EMIC, saying how sad I appeared in the video tapes that were recording our every move during our tour.. I was not sure what to say, a Copeland was on the other end, not the one I was hopping for but a Copeland. There was no way to explain to him the hurt I felt inside that not he but his parents created. The call was short, I basically said no comment, for their were no words to express the feelings I had at that moment! Perhaps the Copelands, Kenneth and Gloria, believed my accusations are unprecedented.. By giving me the chance of showing you in moms written proof I will be happy to reveal you the source of my accusations. Never less, no response lead me to believe neither of you have any remorse for their actions, and that you both must believe they had done no wrong. Personally, I could not live with myself after it was brought to my attention that the mere words coming from my mouth, could indeed cause someone to loose their life. Maybe, hopefully, someday sooner than latter, the dangers related to prosperity gospel will become clear to you both, until then God help us all.
Your problem now is, no longer am I the only one publicly asking for answers, you now have the whole United States of America awaiting to see how this Senate investigation unfolds. In February of this year WFAA News in Dallas broadcasted the findings of an investigation (by Brett Shipp) regarding the misuse of the ministry’s jet. I’m sorry but it is really hard to comprehend you and your wife going on vacation in a jet my mother paid for with her life. Just incase you missed the news broadcast, that was one comment I voiced loud and clear. After that news broadcast aired, I began relying on www.WFAA.COM for any new developments, or some kind of comment from anyone at BVOV, EMIC, or either of you personally. The broadcast received the same response that I had come to know all to well over the years, no response, from either of you. Being in the public eye I’m sure has it’s advantages and also disadvantages. You are looked up to by millions of people. It never crossed your minds that a tragedy such as my mom’s was a possibility? You take on a huge responsibility when you get in front of a camera, step onto a stage, and in the recordings of your tapes and cd’s, to each and every one who are watching and listening. Your words can, will , and have, become fatal, the question now is not will it happen again, but when, if your words go unchanged someone’s else’s death is inevitable. As for my family the damage is irreversible. The probe into your finances is long overdue. As for the ones already passed on, the bankrupt, the homeless, and the devastated lives your ministry has destroyed over the years, but it’s better late than never!! I’ve been told by some that my mothers story, and my persistence for the truth, played a part in the investigations into your finances. If so my objective is done. Showing the public the possible consequences in becoming involved with the prosperity gospel was my main objective!!!! As well as taking the tour of your ministries assets, your partners need to read for themselves, (anyone sending money to your ministry) the requests from the Senate related to your finances. I believe they also will have a few questions for you. Oh and the comment you made when caught off guard by the media, WFAA news, (you may view this on there web site), and are questioned about the misuse of the ministry’s jet, your comment was ”None of Your Business”, do either of you have the courage to look me in the eyes and say that to me? The cost we paid for that jet can never be repaid. Expenses that accrued during and after moms illness, left us with no choice but to take out a loan on our house, which was paid in full at the beginning of 2004. This was all to much for us to handle, we have struggled to make the note the last few years, but we can’t last much longer. So we are basically still paying for that jet, and the joyrides both of you take on it. When mom gave her life for your ministry, and now possibly our home will be lost also, I believe that gave us a right to know where the money goes. We did request a accounting of all mom’s contributions, several times, which I have enclosed in this letter, but yet again no response was given. Are either of you, seeing the pattern here? God knows we all, even both of you, make mistakes in life. The difference between both of you and us is plane as day, we know wrong from right! The good hearted, and the sincere, try to make amends for their mistakes, and are most likely forgiven, on earth and in heaven. It’s never to late to start this process. I on the other hand, will never be able to forgive, nor forget. We never asked to become involved with either of you, or your false, and dangerous ministry! Unwillingly, and unfortunately our lives crossed paths with the death of my mother, I can’t change that, but I wish I could!
Kristy Beach
Dear Kenneth and Gloria Copeland,
If you don’t all ready know me I’m Christian Beach granddaughter of Bonnie Parker. The girl who had to watch her grandmother go threw so much pain for her trust in god through you. You didn’t help her by telling her not to go to the doctor. No you told her that the doctor was the work of the devil. Yes I remember some of the stuff from your shows and CD’s. My grandmother would put so much of her money in to checks and some as just cash, so much in fact that I can’t even recall exact amounts. How exactly much does your healing cost, because my grandmother paid with her money and her life? I watch your shows, listened to your CD’s at the same time watched my grandmother slowly and painfully be killed by your word not God’s word your word!!! You can do what you want and say what you want but you can never be forgiven by me or my family for what you did to us. Don’t want the money she sent you back. I just want you to feel the pain that I have felt day after day since she died. How does it make you feel to take a nine year olds grandmother from her? Now the next time you are taking money out of letters and not even reading the at all, think of what you have done to our family by not reading my grandmothers!!! So the next your are flying around in your $20000000 JET, That my grandmother paid with her life!!!
Christian Beach
That letter was written by my daughter, which was nine when mom passed away. I did not encourage her to do this, she insisted. I want both of you to know what she, being a child went through. Mom entrusted her with portions of her involvement regarding both of you. She is just beginning to talk more about the secrets mom kept hidden away from all but her apparently. I have not questioned her about her relationship with mom, I simply let her talk about her memories, when she feels ready. The relationship mom and sissy(nickname), shared was like mine and my mothers. Why mom reviled things to her only, I guess will remain a mystery. Why her and not me, was it the fact she was just a child? When she speaks of listening to your material over and over, it just adds to the
many questions we have that you will not answer. Have these dangerous twisted words been implanted in her head also? The thought of this scares me to death. She as well as us suffered a terrible loss, but her more so. During the time mom was in the nursing home, most of our time was spent by her side. Even though she was just a few miles away from my home, we were not letting her be alone at all. I hired sitters to stay with her even when we were there, merely walking out of her room scared her. The staff at the home was kind, and tried filling her every need. Each one took her into there hearts, and visversa. We turned to family and friends to help keep our lives going outside the nursing home, which also turned out to be devastating. Christians step grandfather took advantage of what was already a bad situation, by putting his filthy hands on my child(sissy). He pleaded guilty, and is being punished for his actions! My point of telling you this is once again, letting you know just how much we have suffered. Had all our attention not been on mom, this surely could have been prevented!!!! Unbelievable that’s still not the end either. My brother Todd felt drugs would help him through all this hell, he was picked up for simple possession in September of 2004.To this day he still can’t talk about, or deal with the memories of her, bottles of whiskey took the place of drugs. Loosing him is now a huge possibility. Will it ever end?????
Kristy Beach
Request for the accounting of moms contributions.
Dear Kenneth and Gloria Copeland,
Shortly before my wife Bonnie Lynn Parker passed away, she assigned complete power of attorney to me. Both the power of attorney and her death certificate are enclosed herein. The immediate surviving family members are myself, my son Alvin Todd Parker, and my daughter Kristy Parker Beach, who you have met.
Please send us a record of any and all donations, contributions, investments, and/or any money or items she has sent the Kenneth Copeland Ministry, a d/b/a for Eagle Mountain International Church, Inc. We also request a copy of any and all of Bonnie’s correspondence with the ministry. This would include any notes, letters, emails, and/or phone calls to or from the ministry.
Please note that I have chosen Kristy Parker Beach to act on our behalf in this matter, when my signature is not required. Your lack of cooperation with my daughter has only caused more grief. We hope you will comply with this request in order to avoid any legal action necessary to obtain these requests.
Sincerely, Alvin Parker
This request was sent certified mail to KCM, and their attorneys. We received back where they signed for them, but no response came regarding our request.
Letter from media.
Kristy,
I’m so glad you saw the last story. Hopefully you’ve also been hearing about the Senate investigation into the Copeland’s finances.
I need you to understand the reason the Copelands were included in that unprecedented investigation is because of the story we did on your mother.
The Senate Finance Committee members saw that story and were so angered by it that they decided to pursue Copeland as well asking to see ALL of his financials.
It was also after that story the former insiders decided to come forward to tell the rest of the story.
I know it must be difficult for you and your family to reconcile the fate that befell your mother, but by you having the courage to speak out..it has set into motion an unprecedented series of events that will hopefully change the face of televangelism in this country. For the first time in the history of this country, thanks in large part to your mother’s story, Congress is investigating these corrupt charlatans and their cheating ways. Hopefully it will result in the revoking of the Copelands non-profit status IF it can be proven that ministry money is being greedily consumed to enrich these imposters.
Thanks for writing and thanks for all you have done.
Stay tuned, this story is FAR from over.
Letter from X employee of KCM
Kristy, Hello! I am a former KCM employee. ——– asked me to contact you in regards to your correspondence with him following the story he did last week. I can understand why you are so upset and I do not blame you. This will not be an easy letter to write to you because there will be some difficult things that I must tell you, however, it will be best in the long run. I am reminded of the Scripture that says, “For you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”. I am sure that you can’t possibly understand how this will bring freedom to you, but hopefully, in time it will. I am very, very sorry about your mother, what she went through and the price she and all of you are paying because of this web of deception. I am not at liberty to say how long I was at KCM or the different jobs I did there just to protect myself. But, I can tell you that I was one of many people who read the Partner letters like the story talked about. I was not a Prayer Minister trained to pray over the mail, I was trained to read the mail and process it into the computer along with any money sent in with it. I don’t know if I ever read a letter from your mother because I read thousands of letters. There are about 50 people that do nothing but read the mail. It is an Operation of Mail Processing. When the letters were prayed over, it was done in bulk before they were ever opened and most of the time they were prayed over by a Mail Processing person, not a Prayer Minister as Kenneth claims. In answering your question, Kenneth and Gloria never saw your mother’s letters while she was writing them. After the mail is processed, it is kept in a bin for a while and then discarded into the Incinerator. The place where the mail is processed is far removed from where Kenneth and Gloria’s offices are as you probably remember when you toured KCM. KCM operates just like a business. If they didn’t have the Partners and Friends sending in their money, they wouldn’t exist. The people they have placed at the top of the organization (son, John Copeland is the CEO) have not hidden from the employees that everything is “ALL ABOUT THE PARTNERS”. There is so much emphasis on the Partners that the employees get neglected. It’s about the Partners because the Partners bring in the money, not the employees. I am saying this because a lot of work goes into making the Partners feel so “unique, loved, and special”. An example of this is having the Partner Letters and Receipt Letters take on that “personalized” effect. The Partners think that the Copelands are writing those letters and in actuality, it’s all computer generated. Unfortunately, KCM goes to great lengths to keep their employees under the web of deception as well. If anyone questions anything, they are considered a “strifer” and quickly dismissed with Security Guards waiting to escort them out the door. I have seen many go without any warning. I know that all of this information will make you angrier and for that I understand, as I said earlier. But, let me encourage you to find a way to channel that anger into vindicating your mother. You will fall on deaf ears if you go to KCM with anything from here on out. I want to tell you, from a personal standpoint, THANK YOU for coming forward to participate in Brett’s 2nd story. As I told Brett, his two stories planted seeds of doubt in my mind about the Copeland’s and the ministry when I was still an employee. I wasn’t able to get out right away, but I did eventually get out. It hasn’t been easy because I have come to realize how brain washed I was and it’s taking time to come out from under all of that crap. That place operates in FEAR AND INTIMIDATION. I am just beginning to see reality for what it is not for what I was TOLD it is. I want to make myself available to you. You can e-mail me anytime. I hope that I have helped you. I am praying for RESTORATION for you and your family. Regards, ———-
The Senate Finance Committee is investigating the finances of six mega churches, but will this be enough to save lives? Looking into their finances should only be the beginning. By allowing these public roll models to get in front of a camera and silicate money for healing among many other guaranties is just simply wrong! Have there been any inquiries into how many deaths are related to this fraud? Freedom of religion, has become to some a death sentence. It has proven that Gloria’s Copeland’s Healing School being taught by Gloria herself , has students that fail costing them more than a suspension, it’s costing them their lives! Encouraging innocent people to take chances in life concerning their health should be illegal!!!!
Is there anyone out there who cares about the victims of this abuse?
Is there anyone who is willing to stand up for these victims?
Yes, finances are important, but a life taken by this fraud, can not be replaced!!!! Finances can!!!!
Have we all forgotten what’s important, Wake up! It is not only about the money!!!! Anyone requesting proof of our accusation feel free to contact us.
Our contact Info.
Alvin Parker 318-435-5754
Kristy Beach 318-789-7569 or 318-789-7567 email sis359@gmail.com
Amber Sikes 318-537-4077
Thank you,
Kristy Beach
December 7th, 2007 at 7:08 am
I can’t believe I actually read that whole comment. But, uh thanks for the insight Kristy.
December 7th, 2007 at 7:19 am
[…] This comment offers a great insight into Kenneth Copeland Ministries and why the are being investigated by the Senate Finance Committee: […]
December 7th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Sadly since I began my research into Prosperity Gospel, I have received very few comments from ministers. Faith is destroyed for many victims,so I’m often asked by some if it will ever return?Will the doubts brought on by this doctrine be with us forever? Does trust ever return? Most never set foot back into a church, I know I haven’t. Justin Peters, whom is also featured in the documentary Suffer The Children, is the only minister I have had try to explain what went wrong.There is so many precious gifts Prosperity Gospel takes away. I’m not sure if there is one, but someone should start a website for all the victims to get guidance for these issues or just merely tell of there personal misfortunes. Just speaking to someone who has been in that situation, would prove they are not alone.
December 16th, 2007 at 7:52 am
In Loving Memory Of Bonnie Parker,
After numerous private email requesting information prior to moms death, basically asking what her life and our were like those last few months. The following is not at all the complete history you are asking for, but It still isn’t easy to rehash these memories. As far as those requesting samples of her ledgers (relating to the Copelands) send me a private email at sis359@gmail.com and I will try to mail you your request. Updated letter to Kenneth and Gloria Copeland can be viewed at http://sis359.blogspot.com/
No words could describe just how I felt at that moment. I promised her she would not be left alone, yet here we was in the hospital emergency room lobby, and she was somewhere behind the locked double doors alone. Hour after hour passed , a nurse finally appeared motioning for us to follow her. Seeing the pain in her blue eyes assured me this was no dream, this was it, the moment she knew would come someday but hoped never would. The nurse carefully pulled moms gown back revealing a sight that would be with me the rest of my life. I could hear the doctor asking questions directed to me and my father such as “When did she have a Mastectomy”, and “How long has she been this way?”. My father replied” She hasn’t had any surgery” this answer brought looks of disbelief from the doctor and nurses surrounding us. I realized then exactly they were thinking, they actually thought we denied her medical attention. Their expressions were convicting us without any reasonable doubt. Her left breast was completely eaten away, leaving only a large whole where it used to be. Reality had hit me all at once, our fears were confirmed she was not going to be with us much longer, and we were being blamed for the condition she was in. Mom would not let us bath her even toward the end, she had led us to believe it was due to the weight loss, she didn’t want us seeing her frail body. Truth was she didn’t want us to see her chest. We were escorted back out to the lobby so they could resume their evaluation. Result of each test came back just as we had expected, It was to late nothing medically could be done. The following day’s brought more criticism from the hospital staff, finally I had endured all I could, it was time they knew the truth. I know it was hard to believe we knew nothing about the cancer that had consumed almost her entire body, but that was the truth. And they were going to hear me out no matter how long it would take. I felt most to blame, I was her daughter, I should have seen this coming. But my father, they was not going to direct this blame towards him any longer. Come shift change I walked down to the nurses station where one group were leaving and the other arriving. Asking for a moment of their time, proved easier than I thought. As they began to move closer, I began to take them back in time where I believed it all began. Starting with her right eye in which she had lost the ability to open. This was the first sign something was wrong. Mom insisting day after day it was merely a sinus infection and nothing more. The mention of a doctor was unacceptable, she made that clear. Her eye would remain this way a few day’s then become normal again. Twice more her eye would fail her before closing permanently, refusing medical attention each time. As time passed she began loosing weight rapidly, eating very little, and staying in bed mostly all day. We were fighting a loosing battle and there was no end in sight. She was dieing and there was nothing we could do. Why was she doing this to herself and us? The time came she could no longer stay alone, someone had to be there at her side at all times. My dad worked most every day so mom was with me most all the time. Each day she became weaker. I bought a baby monitor and put by her bed and mine so I could hear her during the night. I dreaded the night for I didn’t know what the morning would bring. I had to get up before my children because if she had passed on I wanted to be the one to find her not them. The fear of her dieing and us not having a clue of what from, or why, was the reality we faced each day. My concern had evolved into anger, she was refusing medical attention and putting us though a living hell, why? There was nothing legally we could do, but watch her die. Once we could legally step in and force her to get in the ambulance waiting outside my door, she was probably only hours away from death. Still refusing and begging not be taken they loaded her in and drove away. I believe she knew she wouldn’t return, deep down we all knew. But there was always that single ray of hope, and no one was going to put that out. We had spent the last few months surrounded by uncertainty, fear, and anger, maybe now at least we would know physically what was wrong. But why she made that fatal decision to refuse any type of medical help was still a mystery. In my eyes she committed suicide, I was going to have to live with that horrible fact. Nothing made since, would it ever? There was not a dry eye in that nurses station that evening after I concluded my memories of the last few months, but in their eyes we were no longer guilty of neglect. Once all the test results were back and we were faced with the fact there was nothing the hospital could do we had at make a decision regarding where to take her to live out what little time she had left. I could not take her back home with me, my kids had been through enough. Southern Oaks nursing home was only five miles from my house, the following two moths this would become our home. The staff took us in as if we were family. We owe the last few months of mom’s life to the staff of Southern Oaks, we will forever be grateful to them all. Mom from this point on had her good day’s and bad. October 19, 2004 she was finally called home. All day her blood pressure had continued to fall, her breathing had became labored, and she was totally unresponsive. Around ten o’clock that night dad told me to go home for a while, I didn’t want to but he and my husband insisted. She passed away a few minutes after I left.
From this time on is mostly documented in news reports and documentaries. For the most recent letter addressed to the Copelands visit sis359@blogspot.com.
Thank you,
Kristy
December 17th, 2007 at 10:29 am
I don’t think your comments are fair about NBCC (Larry and Tiz). Yes they do ask for giving but they also are big in outreach. Yes they may have made mistakes but last time I checked they are human not Christ. And the fact that Pastor Huch would admit mistakes puts him 1 step above other Pastors you have listed. Some Pastors think that they are infallible or if they do fail its non of the congregations business. My last post was that I really appreciated this humbleness from Pastor Huch and always enjoyed how he did it in a way that could make people feel good.
I will never believe that God wants me to be broke. I have been successful despite my human short comings. I continue on my goals to help orphans trough adoption. I could not do this if I was broke.
David Macken: I think last time you “reported” this million dollar loss in the stock market you could not provide any information saying this was true or not. Your just passing rumors and that is dangerous.
Pastor Huch is an excellent Evangelical Preacher who has a way with words to get people to turn back to God or make that decision for the 1st time. I don’t agree with everything he has done or does, but I can say he is gifted and for the most part uses that gift for salvation.
I really think your barking up the wrong tree on this one.
December 17th, 2007 at 11:50 am
formerNBCC Member said:
“I really think your barking up the wrong tree on this one.”
—————————————————————–
I don’t think so. . .
99% of his teaching is about tithing and giving. He spent years fund raising for what was to be a huge campus with great vision.
People sold and gave up homes and cars. Some people at NBCC lost their homes. Then Pastor Huch leaves after selling most of the property off. There was never any accounting of where the money went. The Portland church supported him getting started in Dallas giving him 65K a month until he broke off. If you listened to any of his sermons in Dallas he said he was starting over again for a 7th time. He makes it sound like he was starting from ground zero. I think he went to Dallas because that is where the money is. Why would a Pastor who supposedly cares for his congregation leave to go to one of the MOST churched cities in the nation? Sorry but I see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs.
Wonder how long it will take until people see what he is doing and do something about it.
No one ever compared Larry Huch to Christ. . WE know he isn’t.! Sometimes when you are involved in a church and you love the church it’s hard to see the wrong that is being done.
I am not bitter nor do I hate Larry. . I hate what he is doing. I will continue to pray for these misguided ministries.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
FormerNBCC Member said: David Macken: I think last time you “reported” this million dollar loss in the stock market you could not provide any information saying this was true or not. Your just passing rumors and that is dangerous.
Former, Thank you. A better way for me to have made the statement would have been: A former member of New Beginnings, one up near the top of the ladder and a reliable source personally told me that Larry Huch lost $1,000,000 in the stock market and then came to ask forgiveness from the church for having lost the people’s money.
December 17th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Kmarie:
99% of his teaching is about tithing and giving. He spent years fund raising for what was to be a huge campus with great vision.
I guess my problem is that I don’t disagree with non-legalistic tithing and giving. And at times he had gone back and forth on the legalistic part. But tithing is not the great evil in the church legalism is.
People sold and gave up homes and cars. Some people at NBCC lost their homes. Then Pastor Huch leaves after selling most of the property off. There was never any accounting of where the money went. The Portland church supported him getting started in Dallas giving him 65K a month until he broke off.
Pastor Brad was wanting to be a SR Pastor near the time that Pastor Huch left. Honestly I think Pastor Huch leaving could have been an answer to Pastor Brad’s prayers. Pastor Brad is a good administrator and has lead that church over difficult times and praise God for him in doing so.
If you listened to any of his sermons in Dallas he said he was starting over again for a 7th time. He makes it sound like he was starting from ground zero.
Pastor Huch was a Church Planter for a denomination (4 square? I can not remember). All but the 2 New Beginnings churches where part of his role within that denomination. New Beginnings in Oregon City was his 1st church. They moved to Milwaukie then to Gleason. It was the same congregation.
I think he went to Dallas because that is where the money is. Why would a Pastor who supposedly cares for his congregation leave to go to one of the MOST churched cities in the nation? Sorry but I see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ signs.
I agree. This was a huge mistake in my opinion. Over half the people left the church (We left weeks before this happened) Some people really where hurt. I think Pastor Huch left on a rash decision with out really seeking but who am I to say. I do think money was a large part of the decision. It was only a month earlier when Bishop TD Jakes was in Portland Pastor Huch made a comment that if he lived in Dallas he would go to TD Jakes church .. The Irony.
Wonder how long it will take until people see what he is doing and do something about it.
I have looked at this many times. I was bitter for a while, but really have asked God about this. It wasn’t his best moment but I am not willing to judge him on this one issue. This is the decision I disagree with him most. Just 2 weeks before he decided to go to Dallas he said that he felt God has put him in Portland because he was strong enough to fight the spiritual fight in the unchurched Portland. Well apparently he did not have him in him.
No one ever compared Larry Huch to Christ. . WE know he isn’t.! Sometimes when you are involved in a church and you love the church it’s hard to see the wrong that is being done.
OHHH Please do not get me wrong on this. I did love that church. I did learn more there then anywhere else. I grew up spiritually there and was hurt. But not the kind of spiritual hurt the people on this blog talk about. Pastor Huch and New Beginnings was NOT a cult. They do not hold “Spiritual Leadership” over you. Much of my time at NBCC helped me see some of the problems with the MFI doctrines. In comparison Pastor Huch’s quick move and breaking up the church is nothing compared to the daily abuse that some churches put on their congregations. You know as well as I could tell by your story that you spent time and where involved there too. Many Many Many people that attended and where apart of NBCC under Huch really loved God. And because he made a bad decision did not discount the Love that was allowed to flourish in his church when he was there. People in NBCC where (are) allowed to be their best.
I am not bitter nor do I hate Larry. . I hate what he is doing. I will continue to pray for these misguided ministries.
God Bless you
December 17th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
David:
You drop names all the time about CBC. Please drop this name?
A former member of New Beginnings, one up near the top of the ladder and a reliable source personally told me that Larry Huch lost $1,000,000 in the stock market and then came to ask forgiveness from the church for having lost the people’s money.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:31 am
I was there, on the inside and saw everything that is in question here.
Yes there was a loss in th stock market at NBCC along the lines mentioned here and the reason for Larry Huch leaving had to do with laws in Texas vs. Oregon.
This doesn’t change biblical truths like prosperity or the fact that THOUSANDS ( I mean THOUSANDS ) of people came to Christ in services at NBCC or even that most people will say they learned more at NBCC then any church they have attended. So focus on the good here folks.
The issue with the prosperity message is that people become enthralled with it and then prosperity is the only doctrine and they loose sight of the rest.
Let’s not be so quick to lay blame, work out your own salvation and don’t tie your relationship with Christ to a man. The latter of these being the reason most have struggled with the hard times at NBCC and with Larry Huch. Remember, people will always let you down.
As for Pastor Brad. I obviously know him personally. He is in love with the people of NBCC and his desire is for their spiritual success. As with any man, he has his faults (you do too) but trust me when I say, he is motivated by all the right things. Shepards should smell like sheep (as someone once said at NBCC ) and Pastor Brad certainly does.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:08 am
former nbcc staff said: Yes there was a loss in the stock market at NBCC along the lines mentioned here and the reason for Larry Huch leaving had to do with laws in Texas vs. Oregon.
former, thank you for confirming this; another former staffer was doubting what my friend had told me……would you mind elaborating on what you meant when you said: “the reason for Larry Huch leaving had to do with laws in Texas vs. Oregon?” i’m curious: are you talking about the difference in tax laws, investment abilities, 501c3’s, etc.?
December 18th, 2007 at 11:28 am
Thank you former NBCC staff. I agree so much with what you said. My point in asking David for a reference was that he was not at NBCC and its easy to take offenses from another Charismatic Church (Like those under MFI) and say they are all alike.
NBCC is / Was nothing like MFI. People are allowed to be led and supported by the church. At my times at MFI churches (there have been 2) I always felt that any request I made to the church would require a “Tithing” reference check at finance. That is no joke.
NBCC in my opinion was very non-legalistic. Another Large Mega Church in the NW (that teaches prosperity messages correctly) is CFC. Again no legalism needed.
—The issue with the prosperity message is that people become enthralled with it and then prosperity is the only doctrine and they loose sight of the rest. —
Amen Amen Amen.
Like I said earlier:
Much of my time at NBCC helped me see some of the problems with the MFI doctrines. In comparison Pastor Huch’s quick move and breaking up the church is nothing compared to the daily abuse that some churches put on their congregations.
God Bless!
December 18th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
former NBCC member said: Another Large Mega Church in the NW (that teaches prosperity messages correctly) is CFC.
former, May I ask: (1) who is CFC? and,
(2) How does a church teach prosperity messages “correctly” versus “incorrectly?” From your other comments, I would assume that it would have to do with whether a pastor taught prosperity “legalistically” or not. I am not aware of any prosperity preacher who does not, at least eventually, promote the curse on the non-tither and non-giver from Malachi 3:8-12. Do you believe that Malachi 3:8-12 applies to Christians today? If so, would you not call those verses very “legalistic”?
December 18th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
I will not speak to doctrines of specific churches as they do change.
But I will say for my doctrine on prosperity is:
I believe many curses that are in the bible’s old testament have been restored fully through the cross. So no I do not believe that Malachi 3:8-12 has to be for the Christian today. As with much of the “law” its now written on our hearts.
I do give and tithe today but not for what I will get in return but because I believe the church I go to needs the money and should be funded by the congregation. I further believe that my prosperity that I enjoy today is due to my heart of giving to needed causes. We are the light and the salt if we (Christians) do not stand up and help those in need who will?
So its not a legalistic formula of if you tithe it will come back in 2 weeks or a year. The formula is find compassion in your heart for the lost sick poor orphans and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! That is what God honors. I think too many people in the MFI and even some TV Evangelical Preachers followers think that they can go to work and pay tithe to the church and the church is going to do all the works for them. God calls us to more then that. God calls us to be compassionate all the time. To our neighbors to our work associates and (gasp) even to our families.
Prosperity and healing and all the other gifts that Jesus preached about all work in the same way. With Grace not works. So if you are a legalistic tither doing it for your own gain (IMHO) not much will be gained. If you spend time and money working for a cause that God has put on your heart no man or spirit will be able to break it.
Nowhere in the bible does it make the case to be poor. It does say (paraphrased) put all worldly things aside and follow me. It does say that following him will have its hardships. But he (God) says that he will provide and make a way for you.
And yes most of that doctrine was taught to me at NBCC.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
CFC = Christian Faith Center Federal Way Washington
December 18th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
lol
http://i17.tinypic.com/8bp2jdl.jpg
December 18th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
So… CBC teaches that false doctrine about Jesus then? Churches and ministries that teach the prosperity gospel or Word/Faith also teach things such as Jesus dying spiritually and actually spending three days in hell??? I never heard anything like that while I attended CBC, but they teach the prosperity gospel and these other beliefs seem to come with that. None of these churches or ministries include this in their statements of faith. Just wondering.
December 19th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
I attended CFC for ten years and graduated from High School at CFHS. They have a very warped view of many things, including prosperity. They do not have it right, I’m sorry.