“Ah, Lord, let me die!”
Posted on December 5th, 2007 by joebib into the joebib writes categoryThis statement — or plea — which was spoken by Augustine, who lived around 400 A.D., has been on my mind, and weighing upon my spirit of late.
The full quote is from his Confessions:
“Why dost Thou hide Thy face? Happily, Thou wilt say none can see Thy face and live. Ah, Lord, let me die! That I may see Thee; let me see Thee, that I may die.”
And this, in turn, hearkens back to what the Lord told Moses on Mt. Sinai when he made a similar request:
18 Then Moses said, "I pray Thee, show me Thy glory!"…20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:18-20, NASB)
Given the flack that “scholar-types” often receive for being so cold and calculating, I find this prayer to be a most intriguing look at the heart-cry of one considered to be the greatest scholar/theologian of Church History. 
It seems to me (and perhaps others may read it differently) that what Augustine was really saying, in so many words, was that to whatever degree we wish to draw close to God and experience His Presence, and His Will — however much of His Character and Attributes we wish to see absorbed, as it were, into our lives — to that same degree, our flesh, our selves, that which we want, must be surrendered to Him.
And even though the context is that of responding to his disciples’ concern about Jesus’ greater public acclaim, I see an application of this truth in what John the Baptist said:
30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.” (John 3:30, NASB)
And I think Paul saw this same principle, as well, when he admonished the Church at Galatia:
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.” (Gal. 2:20, NASB)
Speaking for myself, this has probably been the one of the most difficult things to develop in regard to my own relationship with the Lord…that of truly desiring what He wants in all aspects — and in all situations — of my life. No matter what the consequences and no matter what the cost.
It’s not that I haven’t prayed for this — for God to have His way, or will, to be done — because I have, many times. It’s mostly been when I’ve joined with someone in prayer and agreed with them about some thing or another that they were wanting in their life. You know, along the lines of “Lord, have Your way in this situation,” or, “Lord, IF it be Your will, let ______________ get that job.” It sounds so spiritual, and even biblical, to pray like this, does it not? (Mark 14:36, NASB)
However, I’ve been bothered by the recognition that it’s been much easier for me to pray for what God wanted in someone else’s life, and for the will of God to be done in someone else’s situation, than it was for me to want it in mine. And I must confess that most of the time I prayed for the will of God in my own situation, I don’t think I was truly interested, deep down, in what God’s will actually was. I think the thing I was really doing — subconsciously — was wanting God to give His “stamp of approval” on either what I was wanting, or already doing, or was planning to do.
I suppose the reason for this was that there was always that secret fear, deep down, that what God wanted for my life would probably be so terribly difficult to bear up under, that I would end up wishing I wouldn’t have asked for Him to do it in the first place. That I didn’t trust Him enough to know what was best for my life.
Can anyone else relate to this?
-joebibstudent
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December 5th, 2007 at 5:56 am
Joe, I think some of those prayers to see God’s will accomplished in my life, carry with them the hope that God’s will provide a measure of relief from accomplishing His will in me.
As often as I or people I know have had to endure the chastisement of God, towards growth and producing good fruit, it seems to a man we take pity on one another and endeavor to provide one another relief from the very situation / discipline God has sent to foster growth. I have often wondered if in such situations that we actually working against God?
Recently, on another forum, I observed a man who habitually destroyed the people with whom he disagrees. His behavior went unchallenged by the forum owners and administrators. Finally, someone posed a question concerning the tolerance of his behavior and the replies fairly destroyed him as he had so often done to others and he left the forum. I have it on good authority that the man was deeply affected by it all, even broken in spirit. Yet there came a cry from a few people on the forum for his return and the man returned after about 2 weeks absence, with behavior now far worse than he was originally. My discernment is, the Lord wants to deal with the man’s flesh, but since for us going to the cross is voluntary, he avoided it for the time being to linger in carnality.
About that I’m reminded of a saying: “salvation is free, but discipleship will cost you everything” … I wonder Joe, if sometimes we vacillate between being simple sheep content with salvation and disciples - longing for more, but unwilling to pay the price? Moving forward only when the Father brings us into unavoidable circumstances?
How many people have I come to know, whose growth was fueled by an unwanted divorce, the death of a child or spouse, a terminal illness, loss of job and home, etc. Real spiritual growth does not seem to go hand in hand with a prosperous and insulated life so common in our culture.
To that end, I have often prayed for revival, which when I first began praying, I thought of it as a more exciting worship service, but in recent years, have come to see as personal individual re-birth and spiritual growth. Once when I was praying for revival, I heard the Spirit say:
Now, with my understanding of “as He increases so must I decrease”, I realize that it is my flesh that must be destroyed in order for true spiritual revival to occur in me. And for those still praying for revival en masse, I would caution “be careful what you pray for”, as my understanding is it will only come with world-shaking crisis.
Joe, you may enjoy a song I wrote about spiritual growth, based loosely on Luke 13:6-9 … called “The Compost Song”
December 5th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
I wonder if this betrays the picture you have of God more than anything else. And what if what God wants for your life is just ordinary? What if the dangerous, cutting edge spiritual adventure that we’ve been trained to expect for the truly surrendered life is in reality(for most of us) a call to live in simple everydayness.
What if a quiet, ordinary path with a few twists and turns, but not anything spectacular, is your lot in life?
I wonder if evangelical culture has wrecked our understanding of the beauty of an ordinary life lived. What if the surrendered life
means earn an honest living, love your family, be kind to those around you? There’s nothing radical in that for most people.
I appreciate where you are coming from Joe, and you seem like a sincere, genuine follower of Christ. I might be misunderstanding the heart of your post here, but it really sounds like a perspective that I is all too familiar with me in American evangelical culture: If I really live for God he’ll require something incredibly hard for me to accomplish.
But what if really living for God means being a sales clerk and paying your rent on time and being nice to your kids?
What if God’s basic hope for our life is to stay connected to him and connect to others in kindness and love? That would be a truly dangerous life, ordinary love and kindness.
(i’ve been thinking and blogging about the power of an ordinary life. I have been reflecting quite a bit on the evangelical mindset I bought into for so many years about fulfillment and significance. Just want you to know where I’m coming from…)
December 5th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
excuse my sudden southern hillbilly drawl. i was raised in louisiana. ya’ll.
December 5th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Lovely thoughts, Pam - certainly strikes a chord with me.
December 5th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Good thoughts Pam, and good to see you on here.
A brother in a house church once shared with me 1 Thess. 4:10-11
“But we urge you brethren to excel still more,and make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you;”
It seems my first ministry is to provide for my family, so we are not in need, and to live a life of example.
December 5th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Pam:
I just love your commentary and thoughts about God’s will for your ( my ) life. I think you truely defined what God wants us to do in this life.
Many are called to a higher ministry and they should answer that call. But not me, and maybe you, and many, many “ordinary” people like us. We were called to do what we did and are doing. We came to the Lord when He called us. We married and had offspring whom we raised in a godly fashion, to the best of our ability,
We speak to our friends, neighbors and non-believers of our faith in God bearing witness to His diety, His greatness and love to those who love Him.
We love and show kindness to our brethren. We show love and kindness to those who are not believers. We show love and kindness to the poor in spirit, in health and those who are financially down trodden. And yes, even to the street people and the homeless without condemnation or asking, why.
As for me, I can never be any one of those “glorified higher ministries”.
But, I can do what I know God has called me to do. With that I am satisfied
knowing that in doing these things I am pleasing the Lord. I ask for nothing else.
December 6th, 2007 at 7:36 am
Pam,
Your thoughts on this really resonated with me, as I’ve wondered about this myself. Too often people are encourage to do things they weren’t meant to do, when they should be who God called them to be. I won’t rant about this, but just say, “Amen!”
On the other hand, I can also relate to Joe’s thoughts about spiritual maturity. I don’t have much to say except to quote 2 passages:
28″Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
December 6th, 2007 at 8:13 am
A friend often says that “for the recovering pharisee, the last idol to be relinquished is the lust for ministry.”
About that I was considering some of the flakey doctrines that have come out of the prophetic movement, such as the 3rd day church, the manifest sons of God and latter rain theologies (link has an interesting comment on MFI / Dick Iverson’s role in the Latter Rain movement). Could it be that the allure of these types of doctrines is the promise of religious significance (importance, position, authority) to adherents?
In hindsight, my motives for seeking the Lord have not always been about simply wanting to know Him better. Sometimes, I have sought the Lord for impartation that I might have it to give to others. About that, I have been called to the cross, not to surrender / crucify my flesh that I might receive the impartation I asked for, but to put the desire for religious significance to death, that I might live the simple life, content with Jesus, that Pam has written about.
There was a time I would have lapped up CBC gruel like a dog, but the cross has shown me that it was not for the Lord that I had those desires for ministry (religious significance), but for the lust of my flesh. Having endured the Lord’s chastisement, I am finally content to lead a quiet life with my wife and family. Though there is still work to be done as my flesh isn’t dead yet.
The other day I looked at the web site where my songs are hosted to see how they were doing on the charts. On the one I consider to be my best song, I noticed someone had given it the lowest possible rating, which hurt me. I moped around about it for a short while, until I heard the Lord say “I’m your biggest fan.” That made me ponder whether or not I’m really content to make / sing music for the Lord alone?
About that, another friend observed that the Lord is said to be an all-consuming fire and that everyone shall be salted with fire … so what is it to me if the Lord should receive my very life and works as a sacrifice by fire, enjoyed only / wholly by Him? Is it enough for me that the Lord is pleased? Or do I still have some need for recognition among men?
December 6th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Sam said, “About that I was considering some of the flakey doctrines that have come out of the prophetic movement, such as the 3rd day church, the manifest sons of God and latter rain theologies (link has an interesting comment on MFI / Dick Iverson’s role in the Latter Rain movement). Could it be that the allure of these types of doctrines is the promise of religious significance (importance, position, authority) to adherents?”
As far as those doctrines, I would actually disagree with you on the impact of those doctrines if you will. I don’t know much about the 3rd day church, but I do know a little bit more about the manifest sons of God doctrine and the latter rain movement. I don’t think they are flaky doctrines as much as doctrines that can be taken and construed to sinful people’s fancies. Just like the prosperity doctrine. Is it biblical to say that God loves to bless His children-absolutely. In fact in my bible it does say that God gives the power to produce wealth. Deut. 8:18. Do the blessings always come with financial prosperity-no. Can sinful humans misconstrue that teaching-yes. Are there some preachers who have a balanced view-yes.
In my mind, the manifest sons of God and the latter rain movement are exactly the same. The manifest sons of God teaching has been turned into something that it is not. It shouldn’t be about a “perfect” race of human beings just waiting around for Christ to come back. Neither is it a teaching that gives people the right to do whatever they want because they are so “holy”. In fact just the opposite is true. The manifest sons of God should be the ones who are so in tune with the Spirit of God that they only want what God wants for their lives. They are in tune to the dealings of God on a daily-if not minute by minute-basis. There are definitely enough scriptures that talk about us reigning with God and us being co-heirs with Christ to not just discard this whole teaching and throw it in the mud.
As far as the latter rain movement, I believe (as will people who were there) tell you that it released something new if you will to the body of Christ. The truth of Spirit-led Christian life. It released the gifts of the Spirit back into corporate church life. Some of the healing ministries were birthed out of this and speaking in tongues, prophetic ministry and the laying on of hands, just to name a few.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:21 am
And I wonder why this is. Is the lust for ministry really a craving for influence and power? Or a longing for our lives to make a difference? Probably yes and yes, at least for some of us. I know it was for me.
I was at a meeting last year of a popular “prophet” who has been around for awhile. I’ve been wowed, and perplexed, by his ministry for many years. He is flamboyant and cocky, yet many times he was incredibly insightful about spiritual things.
But last year I heard him with my new deprogrammed ears. As he called people up to prophesy to them, over and over again it was Big Words with Big Things for Jesus…”you’re gonna be a best-selling author,” “you’re gonna discover cures for diseases,” “you’re gonna pack out stadiums with your preaching…” on and on it went. And the crowd went wild as if it were a rock concert. I couldn’t listen anymore so I left, vowing that I am done.
Where were the prophetic words of humility or obscurity? “You will raise serve God in your community and no one will remember your name…,” “Go be a Sunday school teacher and love the kids as your own…”
I am now automatically suspect if “the word” is dazzling. Seems like those big fancy prophetic words appeal to the ego and also set a person up for disillusionment and confusion. “Where’s my big ministry?”
I think so, and though I hear what Former is saying about the renewal of spiritual gifts, etc…it cannot be denied that a whole breed of megalomaniacs were born in the process.
December 6th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Point taken, Prez. I’ve just never heard anyone teach / believe those doctrines who didn’t take them to the fanatical extreme. In fact, some of the most hostile believers I’ve ever met where adherents of those doctrines, the worst of which seemed to driven by the mindset “we’re here to see the will of God accomplished on the earth and we’ll crush anyone who gets in the way.”
To the extent that the doctrines (as I’ve heard them preached) do not emphasize love, self-control, compassion, patience, sacrifice, servanthood, etc., but rather, seem to emphasize dominionism (power / authority / rule), I have to question the spirit behind the teaching(s). It does seem to me to be the “brass ring” of charismatic teachings.
That said, I am the fortunate recipient of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but coming from the main-line denominational background (which is where I was when I received), the Father has never allowed me to become tied up with the charismatic / prophetic movement - perhaps because He wanted me to learn that the gifts of God are not for the wielding, but are for yielding back to the giver. In my observation, few leaders in the charismatic / prophetic movement have completed their Joseph training (i.e., they need to be locked away with the gifts of God until they are broken / yielded to God).
Perhaps the difference we see, Prez, is between the corporate and private application of the beliefs?
December 8th, 2007 at 3:10 am
Excellent insight, Sambo, despite the grammar.
I've slowly come to that same conclusion over the years, that, hard though it may be, we should rather embrace the trials that God allows into our lives.
Pam — Thanks for the response.
Seems that your take on what I was saying has led a few others off in a different direction than where my musings were coming from. I suppose being misunderstood is part and parcel of opening up one's heart.
I do not equate the will of God to something "spectacular" or "radical," or the ministry, such as you mentioned. Nor was I referring to anything other than the so-called ordinary life you and others describe. I apologize if I gave that impression.
But therein lies the rub, doesn't it? I mean, I think you can recognize the fact that an ordinary life does not necessarily preclude a bit of apprehension in the process of walking it out in shoe leather. That paying the bills on time and being nice to the kids does not necessarily equate to a life of ease, nor does doing those things create some kind of spiritual guarantee against trials — or even the chastisement — from/of the Father.
In fact, Jesus states just the opposite, doesn't He?
Never been "pruned" while smack dab in the middle of God's will?
Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews tells us that it is only spiritual bastards who go unchastised by the Father:
The thing that I have found to be difficult, is — like Augustine I think — to surrender my flesh, my fickle heart, to those "ordinary" things God always seems to use to ultimately bring change to my life. Like a job. Or a spouse. Or a Christmas dinner with the unlovable in-laws.
You what they say about living sacrifices…the only problem is that they keep jumping off the altar when the fire gets too hot.
Still though, I find it telling that this presumption of God's will being something beyond the ordinary has indeed struck a cord with so many.
-joebibstudent
December 8th, 2007 at 8:44 am
My grammar, Joe?
How about your ebonics?
Or your spelling?
Cord as in wood, or chord as in a harmonious musical expression?
Where you been? Get a paper cut from your AKVJ?
Sam
December 8th, 2007 at 8:50 am
I agree with you FormerPBCPrez.
I have.
You would admit Pastor Sam, would you not, that…
…that does not necessarily/automatically make a particular teaching/truth/message unbiblical?
Any more than the hypocrisy of Christians necessarily/automatically gives an unbeliever carte blanche before God to reject the message of the Good News
-joebibstudent
December 8th, 2007 at 9:00 am
It may interest you to know I’ve just placed a call to the “Reverends” Jackson and Sharpton. Be expecting a lawsuit within the day, you nappy-headed fellow.
I leave a few errors in my posts for those of you who think I’m perfect, and you can’t see that I do it porpoisely? Thot you had the Word of Knoweldge, dog?
-joe
December 8th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Joe, Joe, Joe …
Read what I said, carefully. The way I’ve heard those doctrines preached, has always led me to discern a seducing spirit behind them …
Obviously, I believe in a ‘latter’ outpouring of the Spirit, having received it myself and encouraging believers to seek the Lord for the same baptism / more of the Holy Spirit. Man had no involvement in what I received, just the Lord, when I was home alone and spending time with Him in spirit-led devotion. Whenever I’ve heard anyone affiliated with an IC teach about a latter outpouring of the Holy Spirit, it has always had strong overtones of dominionism which I believe are from a seducing spirit.
I do believe in relational sonship of the sort Jesus modeled: humble, compassionate, self-sacrificing, natural / organic. I do not believe those sons will be teleporting all over the world by the Spirit, doing miracles, signs and wonders and summarily dispatching those who resist the ‘move of God’.
You would admit Joebib, would you not, that…
It is a different gospel that I have addressed, truth spiked with the pharisee yeast, from a seducing spirit.
What I wish is that instead of identifying with the so-called “latter rain”, “3rd day” or “msog” theologies, why not get to the root of what the Father wants for us, that is to follow His son and be sons ourselves?
Sam
December 8th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Sam said, “I do not believe those sons will be teleporting all over the world by the Spirit, doing miracles, signs and wonders and summarily dispatching those who resist the ‘move of God’.”
Why not Sam? Do you believe that teleporting is bad? What about Philip who was teleported in the N.T.? And what about Jesus’ words that we would do greater things then these? Just because the devil has stolen and perverted these things from the church doesn’t mean they aren’t for us and they can’t be used for His glory.
Prez
December 8th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Yes, teleporting is bad.
Have you noticed, Prez, how many charismatic doctrines rely on a single scripture that has been spun into an entire doctrine?
Philip’s beam-up?
Manifest Sons?
Latter rain?
Rebuilt tabernacle of David?
No doubt the root scriptures are truth, but clearly there is a departure point where men turn the truth of scripture into speculation and fantasy.
Regarding John 14:12 and doing greater works, is there a difference between “works” and “miracles”? Jesus work was to bear witness to the truth and find and reconcile the lost sheep unto the Father. Why do we assume by “greater works than these” it means we’ll be doing greater miracles? Might Jesus have been saying that we would simply take the gospel into more lands, witnessing to greater numbers of people? His focus was truth and lost sheep, why is ours powers, miracles, prosperity and the like?
Sam
December 8th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Joe, thank you for writing a very insightful post. I’ve been away from my computer for a few days, so I’m catching up. And this is excellent. I think you nailed it when you said,
It’s only been in the last few years of my Christian walk
… that I have trusted the goodness of God enough to stand (as it were) before Him, arms wide, and say “Search me O God!” (I’m a visual person, so I “picture” things.)
… that I have trusted in His wisdom enough not to argue every time He makes a suggestion to me.
… that I have trusted in His love to obey even when I don’t understand.
And I’m not sure which came first, the trust or the appreciation for who He is, that I can identify a little bit with Augustine in saying that I’m willing to let self die to see Him better. Not that I’m experienced at it, and sometimes protecting self is so automatic that I don’t even realize what I’m doing. But slowly, I am learning.
One last little thing: the biggest thing I am learning is that this whole process takes time. T-i-m-e in the closet. One preacher I’ve heard says, “You can’t go deep on the run.” And I know for me that all progress in getting to know God stops when I don’t take much time to be with Him.
well, duh.
December 9th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Well now, Sam, did you not say this?
Now, these words, to any normal [
] person — including myself, as well as Form-P-Prez — give the impression you feel the teaching(s) itself/themselves are at fault.
Would it not be preferable to say you have discerned a seducing spirit in/by those pastors/teachers who have preached/taught this?
Sambo, Sambo, Sambo, this is flawed reasoning, my friend.
(Example) "Everyone who ate pickles 200 years ago is now dead. Therefore, eating pickles will kill you."
Or, on a more spiritual plane, like when someone admitted in a past post I recently came across, that they, under what they felt was the H.S.’s leading at the time, actually “barked” in a church service. Now then, even a kindergartener knows that it is “dogs” that bark. Therefore, it follows that this person must be a dog.
Further, you had better hope that I don’t admit to your points. Cuz if I did, there’d be a whole lotta “Pharisees” running round here in need of an immediate "exorcism" inasmuch as NO ONE I’VE YET MET holds a flawless belief in the mysteries of the Tri-unity, the Natures of God, Jesus, and the H.S., nor in the correct-in-all-situations application of the various and sundry practices and teachings of the Word of God.
No one, AFAIK, is inerrantly and infallibly led of the HS. (Don’t believe me? Check out 1 Corinthians 14:26, NASB.)
No one has it all together.
No teacher has 100% pure, correct doctrine/beliefs. (And, believe me, I’ve searched!)
- This one believes glossolalia is the sine qua non of the Baptism of the H.S., while that one will swear they were Baptized in the H.S. with no such verbal accompaniment.
- This one believes other believers need to lay on hands for the Baptism of the H.S., while that one got it alone, in the privacy of their own home.
- This one believes the Bible is Inerrant, while that one believes it is fraught with errors.
- This one holds that Jesus is literally and corporally present in the Eucharist, that one says He is present only spiritually and symbolically, and yet another holds to a little of each.
- This one believes in Water Baptism by Immersion, that one in Affusion, while yet another holds to Aspersion — and don't even bring up the question of Baptismal Regeneration.
- Or, to bring it a bit closer to this blog, this one believes Tithing is part of the very fabric of Christianity, an obligatory grandchild of sorts from the Abrahamic Covenant, while that one believes the Mandatory Tithe is the very spawn of Satan.
Oh, and by the way, adherents to all of the above positions can supply a plentitude, a virtual cornucopia, a veritable plethora, of Scriptural support to back up/prove what they believe.
Shall I go on?
(Please, no!)
So when does something become “another” Gospel?
Well, in my view, something becomes a “different/another” Gospel when it is a doctrinally significant departure from the Bible. When a teaching inherently/fundamentally/substantially/drastically changes the essential Gospel message.
When the non-negotiables of our Faith are changed — the Inspiration of the Scriptures, the Depravity of Man, the Tri-unity of the Godhead, the Deity, Virgin Birth, and Bodily Resurrection of Christ, His Vicarious Death for sin, Salvation by Faith, the literal Second Coming, and so forth — those Doctrines which form the very warp and woof of Christianity, then I believe you have “another/different” Gospel.
Lastly, don’t forget that, in context, this concept of “(an)other” Gospel which Paul is referring to in Galatians is that of adding the works of the Law to the Gospel of Grace. Which quite pales in significance when compared to preference as to mode of Water Baptism, views on the Eucharist, Inerrancy, or even 3rd Day-ism, Dominionism/MSOG.
If I may supply another quote which is generally attributed to Augustine:
-joebibstudent
December 9th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Joe,
I think you are splitting hairs with the “spirit behind the man” vs. discerning the doctrine itself, separate from the man preaching it. That sounds a whole lot like that old “chew the meat and spit out the bones” saying I’ve heard so often, which I believe flies in the face of Jesus who said “a little yeast spoils the whole batch” … Jesus seems to suggest that once yeast has infected the lump, they are inseparable and the whole kitten-kaboodle has to be discarded. You seem to advocate trying to separate out the good parts?
Can you imagine Jesus telling people concerning the teachings of the pharisees “chew the meat and spit out the bones” or “the doctrine(s) of the pharisees is OK IF you can get past their legalism and hypocrisy?”
Are you saying you believe the MSOG, 3rd day and latter rain doctrines, Joe? And could you tell me who, by name, you have ever heard preach those doctrines such that you found them agreeable (sans flights of fancy and sensationalism)?
You must remember too, dear Joe, that I have my own revelations from the Father, concerning the future - a view that has changed radically since coming out of the IC. The MSOG, latter rain and 3rd day doctrines, as I’ve heard them preached, are not going to happen, according to the revelation I have. Nevertheless Joe, my heart aches for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and a return to unity / community. Heck, the music I’ve received even speaks to it, but to be gut-level honest Joe, I don’t have much hope of it anymore. Out here in the religious midwest, the grip of darkness and deception just seems to grow stronger and stronger. Personally, I think some of those doctrines are in response to the darkness, a kind of a pipe-dream of hope … perhaps the fanciful imaginations are in direct proportion to the darkness and powerlessness that people feel?
Sam
December 10th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Sam,
I think it doesn’t matter if it was one verse or twenty. It’s in the Bible. The infallible Word of God. So either I believe in all of it or I don’t believe in any of it. And by the way in reference to the verse about Philip being a “one-hit wonder” what about Paul talking about a friend of his being caught up into the third heaven. 2 Cor. 12:2-4. Or do you just want to throw that one out too? There are crazy unexplainable things that happened in the Bible. They are called signs and wonders. They are for our time right now if we can wrap our American mindset around it. God wants to move and I want to be a part of it!
December 10th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
I’ve stayed out of this argument because I don’t think it’s very productive. I’m going to make a ninja-like comment and then I’m done.
Joebib made an excellent argument and it went practically unheard. The reason why people like FormerPBCPrez and others have such a hard time making sense of doctrine that doesn’t make sense is because of this statement right here:
Assuming that the Bible is the ULTIMATE ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING is only going to give you headaches. The reason why the doctrines of the Latter Rain and their teachers don’t make any sense is because they start with the above assumption. And when their experience (or need for power or control) doesn’t fit the Bible, they make it fit. If you do the same, you will spend your life thinking that the most pious and worthy endeavor is to fit your entire life and way of thinking on every single topic to fit a document that is not even consistent with itself, let alone capable of meeting the expectations you put upon it.
As a former PBC student, I know where you guys are coming from. I studied the Bible, and memorized it, and counted it the final authority in all things. Call me a heretic if it makes you feel better, but you’ll never make it work no matter how hard you try (I tried REALLY hard). You can try to reject the extremes and abuses of the Latter Rain and Manifest Sons et al, while trying to retain their truths, but as long as you confine yourself to this artificial prison of “the infallible” when no such thing exists, then you’re doomed to frustration and futility.
So, Prez, do you believe that women are in sin for not covering their heads during prayer? Should we shave the heads of the offenders? Should we prevent women from attending church when they wear gold jewelry or braided hair? Would you like me to point a few other contradictions or would you like to wrestle with those for awhile? Actually, don’t answer, I’m done. Go back to your silly argument. I’ll hang with Joe and assume the Holy Spirit is bigger than all of your ideas about how to put God in the Bible box.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:20 am
With the threat of all-out war looming on the horizon — each side even now assembling their respective matériel
— let me thank you for the kind remark, FICM.
However, I made so many excellent arguments in my responses that it is a tad difficult to figure out which one you are referring to.
I assume it was the one about the pickles.
-joe
P.S. Or, the barking one.
December 11th, 2007 at 2:40 am
I think you just read my mind, anna.
Thank you for the reply and insight, as well as for hearing the OP — my (and Augustine's) heart — and not jumping on the hijack.
You are one of the few whom I always look forward to what they have to say (is that bad grammar or what?).
I was recently reading back through some of your past posts, especially in regard to TACF/Vineyard, etc., and enjoyed your thoughts/insights.
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PPrez —
I love ya, bro.
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SAMurai —
As I grow weary at the thought of giving you yet another thrashing — at least for now
— I will limit myself to answering your question…
Yes.
-joebib
December 12th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
sam: can you tell me where you recently posted some comments about the book of James and faith vs. works? I’ve been searching all over but can’t find it. i wnat to add a comment to them..thanks.