Ordaining Evil
Posted on December 16th, 2007 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others categorycaj recently made this comment on another post:
I will, however, have to differ from your thoughts about God ordaining EVERYTHING that happens in this world. I believe that this world is a fallen place, and is currently under the control of the evil one. 1 John 5:19 tells us, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." In Luke 4:5-6, Jesus is being tempted by satan, "And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, I will give You all this domain and it's glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."
We are aliens here, representing another kingdom. We should be showing this world what things would be like if Christ was in control. His complete control will come later, as described in Revelation 10:15, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
Bad things can and do happen, that are not the will of God. This is why we should pray daily not to be led into temptation and to be delivered from the evil one. (The Lords' Prayer) We are at war here, and behind enemy lines. We suffer and take casualties, but they are not all from God's hand. (He does prune and chastise His own, but I don't include murder, rape, torture as being from Him)
This was in regards to my comment:
The peace that comes from knowing Jesus helps when you fully understand that everything (and I mean everything) that happens in this world is ordained (or allowed) by God. The good, the bad, and the in-between all happen with God's permission. The devil can NOT interfere with God's plans for this life.
This could good lead to a good discussion so let me state my case (I tend to believe that God has ordained ALL that happens in this earth).
IF you believe that God is the Supreme Being who created the heavens and the earth (as I believe most Christians do) then you simply must believe that God created evil (as we know it). If God did not create "evil" where did it come from? Satan? Well, where did Satan come from?
If God is not at the very least "allowing evil" (and yes, Negrodamus, I am punking out here) then you would have to believe that Satan (representing evil) has been around as long as God has and was not created by Him…and if you follow that logic, then it would tend to give Lucifer a lot more power than we currently give him.
Here's the way I see it. God is all mighty and all powerful and has offered away of salvation through the death of Jesus on the cross. All I have to do is believe in Him and I will be saved. Part of the believing is accepting that He is God and I am not. I know a very limited amount about this world, about life, and I know even less about the Spiritual world, but I trust that God in heaven has things under control Things that might not make any sense to me are still going to be a part of God's master plan. I do not believe that Satan can frustrate the will of God in any way, therefore when I hear horrible stories of Murder, Rape, and Torture, I know that it is all part of God's plan. You can call me crazy if you want, but you're going to have to explain to me how someone can create EVERYTHING and yet not be responsible for the bad that happens.
And so I say, "Everything that happens in this world is ordained by God" (no punk out there).
But, just for argument sake, allow me to take a step back and cover the "allowed" portion. Even if we come up with a way to disprove that God "ordains" the evil in this world, we still have to address the issue of God "allowing" it to happen…I believe they call it "permissive will".
Once again, we have to start by acknowledging that God is the Supreme Being who is ALL POWERFULL. By being All Powerful it gives God the ability to do whatever He wants to with this earth (again, I believe most Christians would agree with this statement). Therefore, if God has the ability to put an end to evil, yet chooses not to, then He is at the very least allowing it to happen.
Imagine that you are sitting on a park bench one sunny morning, minding your own business, reading the local paper and imagining how much better college football would be if they had a playoff system. A woman in an electric yellow Oregon Ducks sweat suit jogs by. As you watch her continue down the path in front of you there suddenly appears another man who grabs here and wrestles her to the ground in an attempt to rape her. Instantly you realize that you are holding a gun, a knife, and a baseball bat, and that the rapist is completely unarmed and quite frankly not much of a man at all. You notice that it would be no problem at all for you to stop him, but instead you stand by quietly…allowing him to continue.
It would be my opinion that you are just as responsible for that rape as the rapist is.
And finally, if you look at the God of the Old Testament you will see a God that has a different set of moral values than we do today. If God were around today, directing His people to do the things they did in the OT, we would not like Him very much at all and would likely call Him evil. God constantly had the Israelites take over cities and kill "man, woman, child and oxen". Not cool.
Unless of course you understand that God knows better than you do.
This, of course, is just one man's opinion…and that one man has no formal Bible training whatsoever. Feel free to disagree…but if you do, watch out for Negrodamus, he might just put you in your place.
December 16th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Having perused his post several times over, I will be the first to take the bait and say that Mr. Mope (Morton + pope) is, in general, pretty much spot on………I think
(To quote anna) “Esteemed colleagues…what say you?”
(Zipping up flame suit)
-joebib
December 16th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Well, I’ll do my best to explain. No need for ‘flame proof suits’
I usually post as ‘whatHesaid’, from another location. I’m home now.
I think God created satan as an angelic being, whose partial description can be found in Ezekiel 28:13-15. Pride and unrighteousness were found in him, and he was cast down from heaven.( Rev.12:7-9) This was the start of the mystery of iniquity. I do not ascribe it to God.
If we go back to the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. In Genesis 1:26-31 God gives the earth and creatures, plants etc. to man to ‘rule over’. I think of this as God giving mankind authority to act in His name, similar to the captain of a ship giving up the helm to the ‘officer of the deck’.
Step two occurred when the woman was tempted to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She and Adam decided to obey the serpent (satan). Romans 6:16 tells us, “Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey,either of sin, resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?” If there was a newspaper printed that day, the headline would have been, “Satan takes over the world!” The authority God had given to man was transferred to the evil one.
I think this puts the blame for evil where it belongs. On satan and man. Jesus, in Luke 18:19 , asks a ruler, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” In Luke 11:13, Jesus is speaking to His disciples, He makes the statement, “if you then, being evil”. That about says it.
You gave an example of a woman being raped, and how not doing anything makes you guilty.
If I loaned you a handgun to go to the target range, and you stopped and robbed a bank, would it be my fault? I don’t think so.
You seem pretty sure that ‘everything that happens in this world is ordained by God.’
Shall I give you a list of things that God can’t do?
December 16th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
OK, RP: Random thoughts as I read through the post, wondering how we can discuss major theological issues in such a venue. But here goes…
And I have to say at the outset that I believe the Bible tells me what I need to know about God. I may not understand it and it may offend me, but I have found it to be good instruction for who He is. I would not know Him as well as I do apart from His word.
– The origin of evil: Ezekiel 28:15 in a reference to satan says, “perfect in your ways from the day your were created until iniquity was found in you.” That tells me that God created him as perfect, and something happened to twist and warp him (that’s what ‘iniquity’ means). In I John 1:5 it says that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. And then in James it says that sin comes from wrong desires. And that is what happened to satan. He desired to be like God and it cost him.
As I see it, God did not create him sinful. He created him with the capacity for sin. Why? Because God is love, and love is not love unless it is voluntary. And that’s why man was created with the same capacity for sin, and for love.
– OT God vs. NT God: Same God. In the OT you see the execution of judgment after a long time of sin, as in Noah, Moses, Joshua, David, Nebuchadnezzar. We are living in one of those interim times when sin seems to go unpunished. It’s the way God does things. I don’t know why, but He does. Look at Isaiah 42:14. The book of revelation is His response. Like Isaiah 61:2 says, the day of vengeance is a comfort to those who mourn. Think about all those who died in Egypt before the Exodus. It’s just the way He does things — He is longsuffering.
– Ordaining vs. Allowing: I do not believe they are the same. Ordaining means planning and causing things to come to pass. Allowing means not stopping — way different. The Bible specifically says that God does not want anyone to perish. And yet billions do. It seems to me that God allows choices (as in “Choose you this day whom you will serve). Choices will be rewarded or punished (Deut. 28 for instance), but it would not be a choice if every bad choice was stopped.
And so I guess I disagree with you that the devil cannot interfere. I think it’s his life work, starting with Eve, and he’s still at it. Well, him being finite and all, he’s not hanging out with you or me I’m sure. Probably off training the antichrist or something. But he has his helpers.
That God gives choices does not diminish Him in any way, nor does it point to a lack of power. I see it as a testimony to His restraint. Because if we really think about it — probably none of us has brutally assaulted an innocent person, but we’ve done plenty that deserves punishment, and yet here we are while He waits for us to repent.
… as in the days of Noah.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
It’s hard for me to post because of time parameters, i.e. I am at work right now trying to leave my office to be an available husband to my wife and kids but would love to engage in this conversation. I have a lot to say about this subject but am limitetd by time constraints. But anyway, here is some preliminary thoughts. A verse that has always challenged and helped me wrestle with this tough doctrine of God ORDAINING anything is this one. LET’S ALL READ IT TOGETHER:
Acts 4:23-28
23On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
” ‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.[c]’[d] 27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people[e] of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
v.28 always get’s me. How can these Roman soldiers who think they are subverting God’s plan’s be accomplishing it, and yet God ORDAINS it! This verse get’s to the heart of the issue of God ordaining evil/sin. The verse does not say God allowed it, it says He decided beforehand that this is how it should happen and He ordains evil men to fulfill his purposes. Now, when God ordains evil/sinful men, it does not mean he puts evil in their heart and then uses that evil to accomplish his will. What God did in their heart is the same thing he did in Pharoah heart. i.e:
LET’S ALL READ TOGETHER Romans 9:15-18
15For He says to Moses, “(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
At first glance, we could assume that God raised up Pharoah, hardened his heart and then smacked him down to display his power. But notice, God only “hardened” his heart, it never says he put “sin/evil” in his heart. Pharoah’s heart was already evil, God only “hardened” his heart which in it’s orginal Greek expression gives the idea of “God removing his hand of grace off of Pharoah” so that Pharoah could do what was already in Pharoah’s heart to do. God uses Pharoah by his fore-ordained plan but at the same time Pharoah is still held accountable for the evil/sin in his heart. It’s both/and, not either/or, God ordains/man chooses but God demonstrates his will through our choices so that He remains Sovereign even through the choices and actions we display. This does not make me a “Fatalist” or a “Hard “Determinist” which would make us a robot. I like to classify myself as a “Soft “Determinist” because our choices are real and heart felt in which God work’s his perfect work through.
Now, with that being said, God’s is still absolutetly Sovereign and He ordains all things according to the counsel of His will and my choices, which are real, always work “inside” of His sovereign purpose and never “outside” of them. He is ordaining and working through his predetermined plan all that is good to bring glory to His name. Therefore, if God is sovereign, which means he is in control of everything and I mean everything, there can’t be anything that sits outside his control including that Latte I buy every morning at Starbuck’s or He ceases to be sovereign. God is not reactionary nor is He re-adjusting our plans to His to fulfill His purposes.
So, to go back to my Acts verses about God “ordaining” and not “allowing” these wicked Roman soldier to crucify our precious Savior, it seems clear to me that God decided beforehand that he would ordain evil men beforehand to accomplish his FINISH WORK! He ordain them and their choices to be used to accomplish atonement. In closing, LET’S ALL READ TOGETHER ISAIAH 53:10
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
This is a thought provoking verse, I don’t think we have a problem with God ordaining His Son to be killed, I mean He had to for our salvation, but the real litmus test is do we believe God ordained the evil actions of Roman soldiers to carry out the crushing of His Son. I believe based on the text that He did and God is still ordaining “good and evil” to carry out His purposes. I mean, many of you would have never experienced the wonder of gospel had you not been hurt by evilness of City Bible Church and the City Churches “other” gospel. You see, Frank and Wendell aren’t all that bad, God is using the absurdity of their gospel to bring countless to the real gospel.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Thanks for taking the time to post! I was hoping someone would chime in before the thread died.
As you said, this is a ‘tough’ doctrine! I think your position can be traced back to Augustine. He was the main theologian for the catholic church, and since Martin Luther was trained as a catholic, a lot of it came over to the protestant side as well. It is pretty hard for a layman like myself to argue with him.
The main problem I have with the ‘complete control’ doctrine has to do with the character of God. If I had a portrait of a smiling God in my heart and mind, it seems that impuning evil to Him is like blackening a couple of His teeth. There is a real trust issue at stake.
I read through the scriptures you posted, and of course the ones you used support your view. I can see your point. However, I think they must be balanced with others, such as Luke 4:5-6, 1 John 5:19, that I used and some others.
I do think there are things God cannot do, not because He isn’t sovereign, but because
He allows a free will choice. 1. He can’t repent for you. 2. He can’t get baptized for you. There are two sides to a covenant. Therefore, He is not in complete control at
this time. God exists outside of time, and He knows the end from the beginning, but that does not mean that everything that happens was ordained by Him. If God cannot lie, (Heb. 6:18) yet lies are found on earth, how could they be ordained by Him?
December 17th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Help me see the connection of balancing out what I said with the verses you cited (Luke 4:5-6, 1 John 5:19).
December 17th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
negrodamus, I have a question: to follow your line of thinking to its complete conclusion, does that mean that a person could stand at the Judgment Seat and say, “it was Your will I was carrying through!”?
I’m not trying to be sarcastic or anything (parody blog though this is!). I’m not theologically trained. I’m just trying to understand through what I know of the Bible and God.
Are the circumstances concerning the death of the Lord Jesus different than other circumstances? I mean, God orchestrated His death in complete detail. But does that translate through to Him orchestrating the deaths of millions under the hand of Hitler?
just some thoughts…
December 18th, 2007 at 7:10 am
Luke 4:5-6 Describes satan telling Jesus that he (the devil) is in control of the kingdoms of earth, and he gives them to whomever he wants.
1John 5:19 has the apostle John confirming it. It shows another power is at work in the earth other than God.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:35 am
caj said:
“I do think there are things God cannot do, not because He isn’t sovereign, but because He allows a free will choice. 1. He can’t repent for you. 2. He can’t get baptized for you. There are two sides to a covenant. Therefore, He is not in complete control at
this time.”
I know we all argue for “free will”, but never in the bible does it say man has a free will. We definitely have a will, but the will is not free. For example, look at these Scriptures:
Romans 6:16-18
16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
2 Peter 2:19
19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
Carefully looking at the Roman’s and 2 Peter verses it describes the condition of man as a slave, either to unrighteousness or righteousness. In fact, when one becomes a Christian all he/she is doing exchanging one form of slavery for another. In fact, if you assume you are free, then let’s test your freedom today by spending a whole day not sinning which of course is absolutely impossible. We can’t stop sinning because we are still enslave to sin on some level.
Now, does this mean I don’t have the freedom to make choices? Of course I have freedom to make choices, we make choices all day every day. We decide what we are going to wear for the day, we choose if we want to work out or not, we choose our careers, we choose our mate, etc…But we assume that we can transfer that same ability we have to choose other things with choosing God and that is not the case because of our condition before God. The bible describes our condition this way:
Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:4 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Matthew 11:27″All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
These verses and there are too many other verses I did not quote describes man’s condition before God as being “dead”, “blind”, “unaware of spiritual thing” and without the free choice of “choosing” Jesus without God enabling it. Just on a basic level, if we theologized the idea of “choice” we all know that a choice is impossible without a “desire”. Desires drive choices, in fact, our choices are determined by our strongest desires. For instance, if I went to my local record store and was dead set on buying TUPAC’s Greatest Hits CD, but then I stumbled on BIGGIE’s Greatest Hit Compilation, but I only had enough money to buy one of these CD’s, the decision boils down to strongest desire. If I pick TUPAC’s CD over BIGGIE’s, the reason was because I had a greater desire for TUPAC’s CD then I did for BIGGIE’S. BTW, this really happened. But anyway, we could naturally assume that the same desire I had in this case could be in the same case for God. But the problem is this, I DON’T HAVE A DESIRE FOR GOD, according to the Bible. I am dead, which means I am unresponsive to him because of sin. I am blind, which mean no matter how bad I want to see his beauty, his glory and his goodness, I can’t because I am blind. I can’t appraise his worth, which means I cannot see his value because I lack the spiritual insight to do so. In order for me to have a real “free” choice to choose God, He needs to give me that ability because I am slave to sin, once again read Matthew 11:27 and Romans 6:16-18.
Or put it this way, if you placed in front of me a banana split and dog vomit and told me I could choose to eat either, I could eat dog vomit, but really unless I am twisted, I really have no desire for dog vomit. Man has a residue of God in his conscience and creation, but he can’t choose God because there is no appetite for God even though he is confronted with prism of God’s glory everyday. The only way man chooses God is because God chose him first, Ephesians 1:4; John 15:16. In fact our ability to repent, believe, desire, trust and follow God is a gift God gives us because of our spiritual inability.
Last thing, caj you said this:
Luke 4:5-6 Describes satan telling Jesus that he (the devil) is in control of the kingdoms of earth, and he gives them to whomever he wants.
1John 5:19 has the apostle John confirming it. It shows another power is at work in the earth other than God.
First, Luke 4:5-6, Satan said the kingdom’s where given to him? By WHO??? If we assume God gave them to him, does this mean Satan has ultimate control/sovereignty. I mean, my own personal arrogance assumes that I have sovereignty over my life at some level, but does this mean my I have “ultimate” sovereignty, of course not. My sovereignty is limited at best. If God does not have ultimate sovereignty even over Satan than God is not sovereign. I mean, if there is something or someone floating outside of his control than God really doesn’t have ultimate sovereignty.
Second, 1 John 5:19, of course there are alot of powers at work on the earth but does this mean any of these powers have “ultimate” power? Hey, on the cross there were two powers working, God’s “sovereign” power and the Roman armies “limited” power, but God’s power prevailed and to add a quick footnote, God was even using their “limited” power to achieve His ends.
Lastly, read these verses from Jesus’ lips carefully:
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
It seems clear to me who has ultimate authority. I mean Satan thought he had it, the angry mob thought they had it, people throughout the ages have tried to sabotage and discredit his name think they have, but Jesus always prevails. And why does He prevail? You can’t control the controller of the universe, He is too dope and powerful for that.
Peace out, I am sure I opened another can of worms but I appreciate all the post and deep thinkers in this community.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Negrodamus,
Thanks again for posting. I know it takes time and effort! I appreciate the deposit that Christ has in you through your study of His word.
Let me say that I am not in doubt abut Who is the ‘ultimate’ power. The battle will be won by Jesus Christ Who is Lord of Lords! This is depicted in Revelation 10:15, as I posted before.
You said, “but never in the bible does it say man has a free will” I read the apostle Paul in Philemon 1:14, “but without your consent I did not want to do anything,that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own FREE WILL.” (NASB)
I noticed you used Romans 6:16 t illustrate your point. But I used it first!
I believe that God gave the earth to mankind, to ‘have dominion over’ and ‘rule over’ as in Gen. 1:26-31. When mankind chose to disobey God (by free will), control of the earth fell to satan, as per Romans 6:16. That is why the devil could say what he did in Luke 4:5-6. To me this illustrates why the evil in the world is not from God’s hand. It is on us, and we need to repent, believe and obey our Lord Jesus Christ.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Okay let me back up for one hot minute. The verse you cited in Philemon 1:14 talks about an exchange between two believers that have been freed up from sin to serve God and each other in righteousness. They are both freed up in the sense they can make good and righteous choices, but those choices are shaped from somewhere, they are not done in a vacuum. So, does this mean our choices are not “free” from any inclination? Well, yes and no, it just on how we and the bible define freedom or free will. We can hit this subject in another post. But let’s stick to the Philemon verse.
In this section of Scripture, Paul was not trying to levy “external” pressure or influence on Philemon, but the bible never assumes that we have no “internal” pressures, inclinations, predispositions and impulses or we as unbelievers and believers would not be truly enslaved to unrighteousness or righteousness (Romans 6:16-18). To assume that Philemons “free will” means he had no “leanings, proclivities, inclinations or biases” would contradict the Bible verses we have both quoted in our post. Can we excercise a certain degree of freedom from external influences? yes! And Paul was making sure he wasn’t doing just that by not trying to “guilt” Philemon into receiving back Onesimus, but was Philemon ultimate choice free, of course not, he is a believer which means his heart is freed or being influenced to do or better yet “desires” to do which is serve or act on his godly desires. But to assume Philemon’s free will meant that it had no inclinations, leanings, impulses or biases is not true. Philemon was free as a believer to now “act” on those spiritual impulses. If that wasn’t the case then Paul would have not appealed to the gospel a verse earlier (Philemon 1:13)
I gotta get back to work, ya’ll gonna get me fired!
December 18th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
um, who wants to volunteer to go to darfur and preach this whole thing about God ordaining every flippin’ thing that happens on this earth? or how about a family in my neighborhood who lost their mom and toddler sister in a horrific car crash…who wants to go tell them that God ordained that, that’s it all a part of his plan…anybody?
oh yeah, there’s that thing going on called human trafficking, it’s prevalent in a lot of places like thailand and india…who wants to go explain to them that the evil of being sold like a cow is really a God-ordained thing?
I think the view that everything that happens is scripted out by a passive God is fatalism. This reminds me of Hinduism’s caste system, and other belief systems in other countries that permit evil to flourish for this very perspective: that the suffering at hand is ordained by a Supreme Being, so therefore it must be peacefully accepted.
I think it’s bullshit to suppose that God has planned every iota of your life and mine. If this were so, then justice would be irrelevant, free will a farce.
This is obviously an intense, philosophical discussion that has been up for debate since the beginning of time. The origin of evil, why does a loving allow evil and suffering, does man have free will…? Each in and of itself a hefty question that volumes have been written on through the ages.
I won’t fling any bible verses at you. There’s enough of that going on. But take that lovely little doctrine of “God ordains everything” and tell it to someone who has endured a tragedy. The mother whose 12-year old daughter died of cancer. Tell her first. Tell her God ordained that for his greater plan. Then go tell it to the businessman who just lost everything because he was cheated. He lost his house, his retirement, his savings, all of it…I dare you to go tell him that God ordained that and that there really is a plan that will eventually make sense. Oh, and don’t forget to book that flight to North Korea. Go find the street kids who are starving and let them know that God has a greater plan in their early deaths. Remember to send me a postcard.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Pam,
Thanks for the ‘real world’ input! I think Augustines’ doctrine of God using evil to bring about good is at least partly to blame for how irrelevent Christianity has become to modern society.
As a Vietnam vet, I saw enough ugliness to send me searching for God to find out why things are the way they are. I need a theology that makes sense out of the reality I see. The ‘complete control’ position strikes me as a form of ‘cognitive dissonance’. I can still remember a college prof at PCC Sylvania making fun of Christians believing in a ‘loving God’ that is in complete control of all the disasters in the world.
I kind of wonder what would happen if Christendom repented of thinking that God created evil….would He come running to meet us like the father in the story of the prodigal son? Would the rushing wind of His presence come among us again? I’d like to find out! One thing is for sure, if you keep on doing the same things over and over and expect a different result
you are not likely to succeed.
December 18th, 2007 at 6:49 pm
It seems to me that many who have worked at City Bible want what City Bible has. If Mr. Damas is who I think he is, then he has gone from selling City Bible stuff to selling his new doctrine. Could a book be in the works? After years of doing selling City Bible, now he is selling his new stuff. You can take the same things that City Bible leaders say about their pet doctrines and substitute Mr. Damas’ stuff and it would fit just fine. It is the same thing.
This tone just smacks of elitist and spiritual bullying. It is the City Bible approach. Many people with the desire to be set apart as one with a deep truth tend to be the ones who destroy the things around them. The strange thing is, they don’t notice and if they did, they would feel good about it. After all it is the truth, and God’s will is for the ones in the know to set the others straight.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
This post I want to keep more experiential so that you understand my background and God’s redemptive work and sovereign control over the affairs of my life, so with that, here we go:
I am African-American and Jewish. My dad is black, my mom is of Jewish decent. Every three years both sides get together for Thanksgiving dinner and it is truly a beautiful thing to see. I grew up in South Central LA, Inglewood to be exact, which was a predominately African-American community. In the mid-70’s I watched the series ROOTS. You know, black Africans getting swept off the western shores of Africa left an indelible imprint in my younger years, it was at this time that I contaminated with racism toward white people. I mean I REALLY hated white people. I thought to myself “How could these Europeans, with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other feel that it was their ‘God ordained’ calling or better yet ‘Manifest Destiny’ to enslave black people in ‘God’s name’ by bringing them over to America for purpose of economics and Christianization?” Now, the Black Muslim swept through my neighborhood preaching a gospel of empowerment and separatism. I would listen to them as a young boy telling me and my young impressionable homeboys that Christianity was the white man’s religion used only to enslave us as a people. I then fast forward to college and start reading the writings of Nietzche and parts of his concept, The Death of God really resonated with me because how in the world can you say God exist and was in control of this universe and yet allow two races of people, which by the way each flow through my veins, suffer so much?
It wasn’t until I started reading the writings Dr Martin Luther King’s JR did I make sense of out the Christian God, suffering and His providence. I mean, when Dr King went to the Bible belt, the very axis of hate, racism and lynchings all under the teachings of Christianity I found Dr King, a minister of the gospel, to be a very compelling voice for Civil Rights. Now why was he compelling? Because it would have been easy for him to water down or lessen the Christian message because of the damage it caused two whole races of people. But no, what does he do? I’ll tell you one thing he didn’t do, he didn’t ask these Southern white folks to start swimming on the shallow end of the pool of their Christianit doctrine, but rather, he ask them to go to the deep end of the pool of it, because at the deep end that is where you find true Christian equality, true Christian love, true Christian unity, true Christian compassion and I think that too many of us have lived too far on the shallow end of theological pool and now need to swim over to the deep end.
God’s sovereignty and Him ordaining stuff is a deeper end of the pool discussion. Anytime we discuss this doctrinal issue emotions run high. I understand that, I have been there and still wrestle with the implications of it. But as a black/Jew who fastidiously studies the history of African-Americans and Jews, does it comfort me more to reduce or increase His Sovereignty over our history? I’ll tell you what, it comforts me more that God’s hand guided our suffering and the world is forever enriched by it. Can you imagine what the world be like without black folks? It would be pretty boring. Can you imagine the world without Jews? Their contributions to world goes without saying. Have we as a people suffered? Yes! Have we been opressed and treated unjust? Hell Yes! Have we been beaten, maimed, lynch and marginalized? Do I need to answer that???? This is not PAGAN FATALISM, this is CHRISTIAN PROVIDENCE.
On a more personal level, I have experienced racism in many social settings and particularly in churches where I served in a lot affluent, white, suburban church institutions that either related to me either as the FIRST BLACK, the ONLY BLACK or the MOST QUALIFIED BLACK; but how did I resolve this experience, by saying “God allowed it” or rather that God “ordained it”? I look back and see that God ordained my hetergenous experience that was filled with pain, hurt, rejection, but luckily by God’s grace I was able to get the “goodies” out the suffering. This does not meant harm to me were not culpable for their sin, but in it God’s sovereign purpose stillwere still work out in my life through all the good and the bad. Now, how do I cope with this? Am I more comforted by lessening his sovereignty and power over my life or am I more comforted by increasing it??? If I lessen God’s sovereignty then I must trust in the hands of wicked men, but, if I increase God’s sovereignty then I must trust in God’s hand. I chose the latter and I think the bible does too. I leave you with these verses:
Hebrews 11:37-40
37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
God’s people suffered greatly, they were put to death, sawed in half, beheaded, mistreated, homeless, exterminated and yet they had unshakeable faith in God’s promise and providence.
I am sure we all have a story and my objective is to not belittle other races and cultures, I just wanted to share my background and how God’s sovereignty has been working in my life.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Hey Negrodamus
Thanks for telling your story. We might be about the same age. I watched Roots when I was a middle-schooler. I grew up in the south with racial slurs an everyday part of life. I remember when segregation came to my area.
I get what you’re saying about your life experiences contributing to who you are and your journey of faith. But surely you’re not suggesting that racism is ordained by God to shape your life? This is different then saying that God brings good out of evil, beauty out of ashes as Isaiah described. I could tell you my story, too, of deep rejection, immorality, self-destructive behaviours…God did not ordain these things for my life in order to sculpt my life. Rather, in the benevolence of his nature he transforms me in the midst of it. I like how U2 puts it in one of their songs:
So what are you saying? Was the racism you’ve experienced Christian providence in the will of God for your life? Is there anything that happens in your life that is not ordained by God?
December 19th, 2007 at 6:17 am
Hey Negrodamus,
Pretty sure I know you. Nice to hear your voice on here and to hear more of your story. Peace.
Laura Truitt
December 19th, 2007 at 8:35 am
Negrodamus,
I want you to know I have enjoyed our discussion. You gave me a good laugh yesterday! You were very emphatic that God ordains all things, but at the end of one of your posts, you said, “I gotta get back to work, ya’ll are gonna get me fired.” So let me get this straight, God ordains everything in your life, but if you get fired for posting at citybusinesschurch, it’s gonna be MY fault?!!:) You fit in here like a glove!
December 19th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Hilarious Caj!!! But let’s get back to the Bible. I think the bigger issues is this: Can God ordain evil and use it for his purposes?
Well let’s look at the life of Joseph. I’m sure a smart guy like knows the story of Joseph very well. But let me narrate the story real quick to make my point. Joseph’s journey begins like this. Joseph gets a dream from God that he would rule one day and that his parents and all his siblings would bow down to him. Now of course none of them like to hear something that sounded so arrogant, so they conspired to kill him. Well, one day when his brothers were working in the fields, Israel, Joseph dad, tells him to go join his brothers, so off he went. As the brothers see Joseph approaching them finally they felt that this would be the perfect opportunity kill and rob him of his dream. But guilt set in and instead of killing him they sold him to a caravan of Ishmaelites. That was seemingly it for Joseph, he was gone, sold into slavery, all done by the wickedness of his brothers.
Many years later Joseph ascends to a position of power in Pharoah’s court and rules just as the dream said he would. As Joseph is ruling, a famine breaks out and the whole country is devastated except Egypt, where Joseph ruled. Jacob/Israel, Joseph father says to his other sons, “what the hell, why are we sitting here starving to death, I heard Egypt has more than enough grain, so let’s go down there and buy some food.” Little did he or his sons know that Joseph, the dreamer, the one they conspired to do evil against was now ruling 1/3 of Egypt. Let me move the story along. The brothers come to buy by grain in Egypt and Joseph realizes that this is family. He is excited to be finally united back with his family and is moved to tears. Can you imagine the pain, rejection and bitterness he had to deal with knowing that his brothers did him dirty?
But he overcomes all the hurt, the rejection and the bitterness by believing what? Let’s jump into the story:
Genesis 45:4-8
4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, “Come close to me.” When they had done so, he said, “I am your brother Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt! 5 And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will not be plowing and reaping. 7 But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance. [a]
8 “So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt.
Genesis 50:20
(NIV) 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
(NASB) 20″As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.
Look in Vv.4-8, how does he conquer pain, rejection and bitterness at the hands of his brothers and not only that, but reconciles with them. The secret was this; he rested in the overarching sovereignty/providence of God. Notice 3 x’s he emphasizes and re-emphasizes, and re-emphasizes the sovereignty of God. He says over and over again emphatically, “Not you, but God” did this. The providence/sovereignty of God not only kept Joseph from loosing his mind, but it dealt with his brother’s guilt. Look at Genesis 50:20 “you meant for evil, God meant it for God”; this sounds pretty deliberate to me. It doesn’t sound like God was passively waiting for sin to play out and then respond to the sin to fulfill his purposes in Joseph’s life. When I “mean” to do something to someone there is intentionality behind it. To allow something to happen is to just permit it, but when some meant to do something there is intent behind that action.
Does this mean the brothers are not responsible for the sin and evilness they committed? Of course they are responsible. Even though the brothers were destined to sell him, even though it was purposed that they sell him, it was nevertheless still “wicked” that they sold him. Essentially this means that the wickedness of their heart they were responsible for , the choice to sell Joseph they were responsible for, God did not make them wicked, but at the same time God still worked through their choices His perfect plan. This means God led them into selling Joseph into slavery; it was part of God’s plan. It looked terrible and awful but it was part of His plan. However, given that this was God’s plan the brother still wept and repented because they knew there actions were evil even while God worked out His counsel infallibly.
Let’s close with these verses:
Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Off the record: Laura Truitt, didn’t you move to New York?
December 19th, 2007 at 10:26 am
Dear Nergodamus(E):
We were not close, but me and my family knew and appreciated you as the person you were when you coached bastetball at TCS. Our son, very white, and his team mates, most very white. thought you were the coolest coach around. They spoke highly of you and any racial differences were never regarded. When you left there you were greatly missed by them. Those guys really loved you. This is something that God ordained.
Discrimination is one of the most evil sins in man’s soul. We all have it in us, I regret to say. We can even justify it if we need to.
To Wit:
N.Ireland vs. S. Ireland; (very white people, both sides) Yankees vs. Rebs.; Californians vs. Oregonians; Catholics vs. Pentacostals; on, and on, and on,. Discrimination of any kind is evil. It will always be among us, that is until the Lord comes and wipes it away from the dirty hearts of humanity. This, I cannot believe is ordained of God.
I am very white, except for some Cherokee Indian heritage which I have always been proud of. As a child I grew up in a very poverty riddled part of the country. Our family was quite poor. We suffered major discrimination because we were ragged, dirty and uneducated “hillbillies”.
We suffered thru much very ugly name calling, evil inuendos and trashy references. I stand to wit. This kind of thing cannot be ordained by God.
It took a few years, but by the grace of God I was able to rise above the effects of all of that. Leaving all of that behind, as a young teenager, I was compelled to make a better way of life for myself. I found work that paid real money, I got an education, gave my heart to the Lord, married and raised a family and have lived a very good life. This was ordained by God
Heard in a discussion on racial predujuce: “Each one of us. Look at the back of your hand. What color is it? Your’s is very light brown. Mine is brown too, only a little bit darker, and his is just a little darker than mine. We are all much the same. Wouldn’t I look awful if I were pure white and you were pure black? (big laughs).Point is there is little or no difference in any of us in God’s eyes. We were all made as equals. We are made to be as brothers and sisters in love and caring for one another. This, I believe, is what God has ordained.
‘Almighty God in heaven is my Father. If He is your father too, that makes us brothers and sisters. Lets love and care for each other so.” THIS IS WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED FOR US TO BE.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:28 am
ND-
I did move to NY and was there for 10 years. And for all those who had been trying to figure out what church I was at, now you good as know.
For what it’s worth ND, my fondest days were those driving my van, having my own route. Discipling little ones–I did it in NE Portland, and then the South Bronx, then Upper West Side, then Ridgefield, now Vancouver. It’s all good.
Lauar
December 19th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Ok, ok, I really wasn’t going to comment any more on this discussion since I really need to get going on some stuff. But I cannot ignore this statement from N:
Argh. I cannot, cannot, cannot accept this. God redeems great things out of great tragedies. But I cannot accept that he inspires evil. This kind of logic would lend it self to concluding that murder must of have been inspired so that a man could meet his new wife and therefore they got married, and it wouldn’t have happened unless his first wife was murdered, so therefore it’s God…? Argh……..
Dude, I respectfully and aggressively disagree with you on this fatalistic view of God. Please travel to another country as soon as you can. Go to the poorest most oppressed place that you can safely travel to and then think about what you are preaching.
The sovereignty of God must not be confused with the providence of God. Yes, there was an incredible outcome in the whole Joseph story, which is one of my fave stories in the OT. But can you see that God made it great in spite of all the evil that was done to Joe? Does God inspire evil to accomplish a script? Or does he redeem us from ugly situations and accomplishes good in them?
I’m sure Joseph appreciated that he ended up in a position of power that eventually helped his bio family. Does this mean God was like, “Hey, let’s f*ck up Joe’s life to get my vision fulfilled.” Or could it have been that God takes what the brother’s meant for evil and he turns it around….the brothers inspired that evil act of abandoning Joe and selling him off…
God stepped in that mess. He did not cause that mess. And that is the difference between your perspective and mine. Arg, respectfully…
ok, i gotta get out the door. it’s ordained for me to go to winco today.
December 19th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Negrodamus,
I think I should point out what I said at the start. I did allow that God chastises and prunes people for His purpose, but I excluded Murder, Rape and torture as being outside His will. (2 Peter 3:9)
The story of Joseph is one of the great stories of the bible, but Joseph was not murdered. He was a spoiled and arrogant young man, and God chastised him so that he could become a great leader. The story has a good ending, and fits with what James says, “Every good thing bestowed, and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights,with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.”
Now let me ask you about a bible situation. In John 2:14-16, Jesus goes into the temple and found those who were selling oxen, sheep and doves, and the moneychangers seated. He made a scourge of cords and drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and oxen. He poured out the coins of the moneychangers and overturned their tables. He told them to “stop making my Father’s house a house of merchandise.”
If God ‘preordains everything’, why would Jesus (who was God) get upset about it? After all, by what you imply, He had ordained them to be there.
December 19th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
Laura,
UP were some good times. I remember CBC leadership accused us of misappropriating funds, so they made us “give up” our 501c3 status and do a DBA of the church which they knew would kill our the program. The misappropriating of funds was really just a tustle over who controlled the money. We knew if they got a hold of the money that this would be the end of UP as we knew it. The crazy part of it was that they accused us misappropriating the money but when when they opened the books all we did was give the money to the people ministered to. We paid light bills, rent, groceries for poor families in the inner-city, etc, but because we did not come to them for “2nd signature” on all checks they brought a case against us.
But here is the sad thing, we bought 3 homes through our 501c3 in NE Portland (the hood back then), but once we had to sign everything to over CBC, 5 years later they dissolved our ministry and rolled the proceeds from the sale of those 3 properties into PBC maintenance fund. Now who really misappropriated those funds???? Crazy…crazy…crazy…
December 19th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
yeah, yeah, yeah, let me beat all you guys to the punch-line, GOD MISAPPROPRIATED THE FUNDS!!!!
December 19th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Actually ND, your story about UP nearly brought tears to my eyes. Punch line? I feel like punching….but I’ll give it up to my Lord Jesus.
You have given me a real insight into why there are problems with the boiler in the PBC dorms.
Moving to higher ground, I went to Imago Dei a few months back to hear a fellow by the name of John Perkins. Have you heard of him? If not, check out www.jmpf.org
He was one of the best preachers I’ve heard.
p.s. whatHesaid and caj are the same person at different locations
December 19th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
I’ve been to Imago Dei several times, great church! I have read a lot of John Perkins books and materials. He was the reason I started UP. The 3 “R’s; Relocate, Redistribute and Re-SOMETHING (???) started my trek from PBC to inner NE Portland in the mid-90’s, long before gentrification struck NE Portland. But anyway, I remember fighting with CBC leadership to move to the hood. They usually back then kept you immobile by pointing out a weakness in your character then say “Go work on it and then we will release you to fulfill God’s call on your life!” Of course, being the sinner that I am with no true understanding of the gospel I sincerely heeded their advice and would go back to my dorm and try and fix myself, but to no avail. One day, I drove down to NE Portland to buy The Winans CD from a local record store and was deeply moved at the hopelessness and poverty that kept us marginalized and decided to do something. I came back to the dorm, packed my shit, threw my PRESENT DAY TRUTHS and MAKING OF A LEADER books in the trash and bounced to the hood!!! Those were phenomenal times!
I think the only white people living in NE Portland at the time was this Amish Community called Prince of Peace where Reform Pope and Catalyst attended (smile)!
December 19th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Let me clarify that last post just a wee bit. whatHesaid and caj are not the same person but do live at the same location. When whatHesaid is at work he posts under “whatHesaid”. When whatHesaid posts at home he shows up as caj….there…I suppose that is about clear as mud now…thank you…
December 20th, 2007 at 2:47 am
I have really enjoyed the repartee on this subject, and the different takes on Scripture.
Just curious here, but how would some of you explain the following verses?
Oh yeah, and let’s not forget Job 1:8-19 and Job 2:3-7.
Historical context, O.T. vs. N.T., and “that-was-then-this-is-now” aside, still some pretty strong stuff coming from Him who “changes not,” (Malachi 3:6) wouldn’t you say?
-joebib
December 20th, 2007 at 7:13 am
I was wondering when you were going to jump into this!
I see you are picking your verses also, Isaiah 54:16…how about looking at verse 15, “if anyone fiercly assails you it will not be from Me.”
Also, historical context and O.T vs. N.T. are tools I’m not willing to set aside when debating with this crowd!
December 20th, 2007 at 7:53 am
ND/EK-
Thanks for telling more of the story. I absolutely loved UP, prob. b/c it was just a bunch of kids loving Jesus and loving people. I think it’s one of the purest things I’ve been involved with. I’ve learned the hard way that churches are full of red tape. My old pastor used to say If you don’t tithe, you can’t even lead someone to the bathroom in this church!
I’ve heard bits and pieces of the UP story, but always from the Official side. I mourned your and Dan’s leaving.
I also was REALLY upset when the baton was passed over your head to that boy that used to live in a box. I lost a bit of faith over that one. I have felt for some time that our generation (genx) was passed over in favor of genY (in large part due to the age of Pastor Frank’s generation when they were ready to incorporate new leaders).
I’m sure it was all in God’s providence somehow.
In the meantime, I just long for a bunch of hungry people to chase God and love sinners with again.
Laura
December 20th, 2007 at 8:37 am
joebib, those are some very dangerous verses. Also, can somebody help me with these chapters and verses:
Would God really destroy a city and actually decree it?
Lamentations 2:11-17 (pay attention to v.17)
11My eyes fail because of tears,
My spirit is greatly troubled;
My heart is poured out on the earth
Because of the destruction of the daughter of my people,
When little ones and infants faint
In the streets of the city.
12They say to their mothers,
“Where is grain and wine?”
As they faint like a wounded man
In the streets of the city,
As their life is poured out
On their mothers’ bosom.
13How shall I admonish you?
To what shall I compare you,
O daughter of Jerusalem?
To what shall I liken you as I comfort you,
O virgin daughter of Zion?
For your ruin is as vast as the sea;
Who can heal you?
14Your prophets have seen for you
False and foolish visions;
And they have not exposed your iniquity
So as to restore you from captivity,
But they have seen for you false and misleading oracles.
15All who pass along the way
Clap their hands in derision at you;
They hiss and shake their heads
At the daughter of Jerusalem,
“Is this the city of which they said,
‘The perfection of beauty,
A joy to all the earth’?”
16All your enemies
Have opened their mouths wide against you;
They hiss and gnash their teeth
They say, “We have swallowed her up!
Surely this is the day for which we waited;
We have reached it, we have seen it.”
17The LORD has done what He purposed;
He has accomplished His word
Which He commanded from days of old
He has thrown down without sparing,
And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you;
He has exalted the might of your adversaries
Would God really inflict a child with sickness?
2 Samuel 12:15 After Nathan had gone home, the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill.
Would God choose to set his loving affections on one person and withold it from the other?
Romans 9:11-15
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that (A)God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12it was said to her, “(B)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13Just as it is written, “(C)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14(D)What shall we say then? (E)There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
“Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them; that is, He either is willing they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them.” -Jonathan Edward
(NASB) Isiah. 46:10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
December 20th, 2007 at 8:50 am
Laura,
I am living in Los Angeles working and loving life. It is nice to not have to be a paid professional Christian anymore. I host a few bible studies in the inner-city and love it. Most the people that are apart of the study are between 18-25years old. I also am the chaplain for El Camino Junior College Men’s Basketball Team. My nephew became a Christian 6 months ago and is the starting point guard for the team. He ask his coach if I could do devotions after the team practices and so the coach approached me and ask if I would not only do practice devotions but game devotions as well. So it has been amazing journey. It started at The Well church in Portland,OR. It was their that I discovered the Gospel and grew with that church. Since then I moved to Los Angeles to see what the gospel looked like in the BIG CITY! I’m from here and felt like this is the perfect place from me and my family. I don’t have a church home, I kinda struggle with church given my 20 year church journey in Oregon, but I do love God and have some really dope friends to journey with both in LA and OR.
December 20th, 2007 at 11:33 am
I can’t keep up with the arguments here(tl;dr), but I just want to chime in and say I disagree with RP. God is not responsible for evil or our sins, or the results of either. It would be inconsistent with who He is.
If we define God as the one Being who is completely GOOD, then we can define evil as anything that is not in the character or nature of God. So for God to remain God, He must be consistent with his own nature, and thus cannot produce something antithetical to Himself. To suppose that God ordains (implying the creation of) evil is a contradiction if we define God as the one who is completely good.
But God who is completely good, must also be the definition and standard for what love is. Defining the purest kind of love may be difficult, but my own opinion is that the purest and most genuine form of love is the kind that loves regardless - it is unconditional. If God’s love depended upon our being good, then it wouldn’t be consistent with his nature, to be completely good and to love completely and unconditionally.
Now that we have settled that (if not, humor me) we can then surmise how God, who has the ability to create everything and everyone, would best demonstrate his goodness and love through His creation. If the only way that God could express his love is to do so unconditionally, there has to be the opportunity for the object of his love to reject Him! If God were to create beings that always loved Him, then God could not express his unconditional love. God created beings who could choose to reject his love in order to satisfy his character and nature of being completely good and full of unconditional love.
This is how evil entered creation, through beings who chose to reject God’s goodness and love. Remember, I am defining evil as anything not in the character of God. That could be lots of things, but it is as simple as choosing something other than who God is.
So, back to the original question, does God ordain evil? If you follow my argument you will see that God allows evil because God allows us to choose whether or not to be like Him. But He cannot ordain evil because it would be against His nature.
RP’s analogy about the rapist fails, for this reason: God cannot intervene with our choices because it would violate his need to express His unconditional love. OK, if that didn’t blow your mind, I don’t know what will. He allows us to do terrible evil things to each other in order to give us the opportunity to choose to do good and love unconditionally. If God were to intervene and prevent people from choosing evil, then he would not be able to satisfy his unconditional love.
To many people RP’s argument seems like a good one, because life is unfair in this regard and it gives us someone to blame other than ourselves. If we can blame God for the evil being perpetrated in the world, we can let ourselves off the hook and feel better about not being as bad as the guy next to us.
This is why God’s grace is so wonderful! God allows us to choose, even to choose evil, and yet He demonstrates His unconditional love towards by providing a means of Salvation from our own choices. It’s this miraculous grace that defines God as God! God is not a perpetrator of evil, nor He is simply out to trick us into damnation by giving us a free will. He has given us the amazing opportunity to experience his unconditional love and grace through Jesus.
December 20th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
FICM,
Thanks for your input! I think we are pretty much on the same page.
ND,
I felt I answered your question about Joseph’s life. I asked you one about Jesus cleansing the temple. Did you overlook it? I’d like to know what you think.
December 20th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
whatHEsaid says:
“ND,
I felt I answered your question about Joseph’s life. I asked you one about Jesus cleansing the temple. Did you overlook it? I’d like to know what you think.”
Reread all my post. God hates sin even though He decrees it. God can use evil without being evil Himself. The soldiers that hung Him on the cross are responsible for their evil and God will judge them for it, but this doesn’t mean God couldn’t have decreed it. Read this verse:
Acts 2:23 (NIV)
23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
God did not make the soldiers wicked, but at the same time God ordained/decreed that through their wickedness He would fulfill His work of redemption.
So can God can spank the moneychangers who merchandizing His Father’s house and be pissed off about it and yet decree it? Of course He can, He’s God, He can do whatever He wants to do. He can beat the shit out of them for their sin and still decree/use their sin to accomplish his ends. Look, if my dog took a shit on my carpet, can I not as the owner determine to use “their” shit by rubbing their nose in it to teach them about not shitting in my house. Mankind has been shitting on God’s planet from the beginnings of time, can He not use/decree that shit to ultimately redeem his planet and bring Glory to His name???
December 20th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Mr. Damus,
You said in your post that you discovered the Gospel while at The Well.
Can you tell me what you thought the Gospel was before The Well?
What is the Gospel to you? Are you saying that only people who believe that God ordains evil and disbelieves in the free will of man are going to heaven?
December 20th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
No, not at all. All this stuff about ordaining and free-will is just good doctrinal discussions but what you believe either way has no bearing on where you spend eternity.
I went to New Song Church before the Well and then CBC before NSC and then Maranatha Campus Church before CBC. I became a Christian at 19 years old in college and was apart of MCC, a very heavy legalistic church, but they were militant and that drew me in. I had read and heard alot about the black panther movement of the ’60’s and how revolutionary they were and yearned for that kind of militancy. Well, Maranatha offered that and they serious about God, accept for all that holding up the student union. They were stary-eyed idealist that wanted to “Change the Campus, Change the World” (actually there was a book by the apostolic leader of the movement titled just that). But we were more like RULE THE CAMPUS, RULE THE WORLD, which was more like JIHAD for Christians. Now, this church believed in intense discipleship, early morning prayer, open-air campus preaching, men’s house, women’s house (required for all members to live in), casting devils out of each other, no drinking, smoking, cussing, fratenizing with the opposite sex, no secular music, no going home for summer breaks, no parties, we even had to tithe off our pale grants for our school loans and YOU MUST SUBMIT to God’s authority unquestionably or you were fucked. That was my life from 19-23yrs old, I was totally indoctrinated into the idea that only rigorous spiritual discipline and absolute submission to God’s appointed authority in your life would gain favor and acceptance from God. So most of my college experience was filled with insecurity, doubt, depression, fear, anxiety and guilt never sure where I stood with God. No matter how hard I worked to try and get my life right I would fall flat on my face back into this endless cycle of “SIN-GUILT-FIX MYSELF-FEEL BETTER ABOUT MYSELF” then oops “SIN AGAIN-MORE GUILT-TRY HARDER TO FIX MYSELF-HOLLOW PROMISES TO GOD ABOUT CHANGIN MY LIFE AGAIN”, that was my cycle dawg. Actually I carried that mentality from college in Corvallis,OR to Portland,OR and just repeated this cycle over and over again until I turned 36 years old. In Portland, I started attending City Bible Church which was just the community version of our campus church, just a little more tame. But all the teachings on performance and work to earn your righteousness was all the same. It wasn’t until I step into the Well and heard this negro name Eric Knox preach the gospel and it twisted me up in a profound way and that was it. All my hurt, rejection, fear, anxiety and frustration over church finally made sense when I heard the gospel. Now on to the gospel.
To me, the gospel is the Good News of Jesus Christ. In other words, Christ not only died in my place, but he also lived in my place. He died on that precious cross drinking God’s wrath reserved for us all the way down to the dregs. But, he also lived in our place which means He met the requirements of the law perfectly for us. So our perfections our not in our ability to live perfectly, our perfection is in Him. This means I don’t have to live a perfect life to gain God’s acceptance, I am accepted because He lived in His Son perfectly in my place. So whether you believe in Charismatic or liturgical worship, speak in tongues or believe they’ve ceased, Calvinist or Arminian, drink or don’t drink, smoke or don’t smoke, married or divorced, these things are never the pre-requisite for salvation, ONLY THE FAITH and TRUST IN THE PERSON AND PERFECT WORK OF JESUS CHRIST. So now, my work, is just to accept His acceptance of me. That there is nothing I can do to get Him to love me more and there is nothing I can do to get him to love me less. So my man, I hold to no standard but the cross.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:35 am
ND,
Thanks for the reply to the ‘cleansing the temple’ question.
You have made a couple of references to the evil of the Roman soldiers being ordained by God. I owe you an answer on that. I believe that Christ willingly gave Himself into the hands of evil for our sake. Since He was God in the flesh, this did not affect anyone other than Himself, so no evil was inflicted on the human race by God in this case. Also, Christ was the “Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth”, and I have no problem with the idea it was ‘preordained’.
Your answer about the cleansing of the temple seems to picture Christ as one Who ordains the moneychangers to be in the temple and then whips them for it? It seems to me you are impuning an unjust action to our Lord. Christ died for our sins, the Just for the unjust. (1Pet.3:18) I think such an action falls outside His nature/character.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:40 am
Again, good and evil sits “inside” of God’s providential plan decreed by Him. So to use evil without being evil is not inconsistent with God’s nature. So let’s go back to the dog shit illustration. Can the owner use the dog shit to fulfill his purposes with the dog without that dog shit being impuned to him?
December 21st, 2007 at 9:07 am
Negrodamus:
How heart rendering it is that you find it necessary to use such words and terminology in your posts to define the gospel as you understand it. Maybe this is why you some misconception about it.
The gospel, as most of us know it,can’t be defined in those terms.
Sounds like it more-so defines the heart of a bitter man. Very much unlike the man(E) I used to know.
God’s Love And Grace To You
December 21st, 2007 at 11:18 am
The only people offended by N’s language are uptight Christians who already have the Gospel. Be careful not to judge others simply because their cultural values don’t match up with yours.
In Philippians 3:8, Paul uses a crude word to get his point across. English translations use a “nice” word but it could easily be translated as animal poop or “dog sh**”.
If you said “poop” to someone in the “hood” you’d probably get strange looks. If you say “sh**” instead you’ll get nodding approval. But say “sh**” at Aunt Mabel’s church in Milwaukee, and you’ll have people trying to cast out demons.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:33 am
The use of ‘evil’ and ‘providential’ together is an oxymoron.
In Ezekiel 28:13-15, satan’s creation is depicted. It does’nt say that unrighteousness was created, it says it was found in him after the fact.
It came from unlawful desires. The same holds for Adam and Eve, they were created and without sin, but they fell into sin through disobedience.
Since God knows the end from the beginning, He saw it would happen, but He is not the author of evil. Going back to one of my early posts, if I loan you a handgun to go the the shooting range, but you stop and rob a bank,
does that make the robbery my fault? Or yours?
December 21st, 2007 at 12:53 pm
daisyblackhead, sorry for offending your sensibility but I am not a bitter man, far from it. I am cut out the same cloth as men I admire that have gone on before me like Luther who was a drunk and makes my language seem tamed by comparison; Spurgeon, who smoked cigars and was about 100lbs overweight; Dr Martin Luther King JR, who had extra-marital problems; King David, who was a murderer and adulterer; Brennan Manning, who still keeps relapsing into alcohol; Henri Nouwen, who struggled with homosexuality before he died, and the list goes on…I am just intuned with my humanity and although I do not excuse it, this is who I am at this point in my life.
And by the way, what misconception do I have about the gospel that you had a hard time understanding? Could you just not reconcile me explaining the gospel and using a curse word in the same breath to describe an emotion I felt captured the emotion at that moment? But here’s what I ask from you, don’t attack my character because my language offends you, there was nothing sinful in that post, atleast to my understanding, I really am not in the mood to me patronized. and you really need to thank God that I am not that dude you used to remember!
FICM, thanks for holdin’ a brutha down…
December 21st, 2007 at 2:31 pm
To clarify something whatHEsaid, I do not know if God created evil, the bible never states that He did. That is a mystery to me so I stay silent on that issue, but since evil exist, does He decree to use it for His glory? I think I stand on safe ground by saying “Yes He does!” and I don’t mean “He allows it”, I mean “He decrees or uses it!”
December 21st, 2007 at 3:15 pm
OK, we may closer in our views than I thought. I may have confused your position with RP’s statement,”you simply must believe God created evil”, which I just re-read to make sure of.
One other post you made was quite confusing to me. It was about free will, just after I posted Philemon :14. I’m not sure I understand what you were saying there.
December 21st, 2007 at 5:34 pm
I’m not sure if God created evil, maybe the potential for evil, but I am not sure either way, it’s a mystery to me, RP maybe right and he maybe wrong the bible doesn’t say either way. The Philemon verse is more about Philemon having the free will to choose what to do with Onesimus without Paul guilting him “under compulsion” into to do it. But was Philemon free from the “compulsion” I say no, we are a slaves to something, either to unrighteousness or unrighteousness, so in that sense nobody has a free will.
December 21st, 2007 at 5:56 pm
I wrote that fast not paying attention to it, so let me hit ya with the remix version:
I’m not sure if God created evil, maybe the potential for evil, but I am not sure either way, it’s a mystery to me, RP maybe right and he maybe wrong the bible doesn’t say either way.
The Philemon verse is more about Philemon having the free will to welcome Onesimus back without Paul guilting him “under external compu