Questions about The City Church
Posted on December 27th, 2007 by catalyst into the Comments From Others categoryWe get questions, lots and lots of questions:
I moved to San Diego in 2004 from the East Coast and started attending the City Church plant in San Diego. I left with my husband in July of 2006, leaving my 2 teenage girls there because they were so involved with Generation Church. I went back in April of 2007 to be supportive of my girls, but left about one month ago because I felt they were in grave error.
You don’t know how many times I read the posts on this blog to confirm what I always thought about the City Church. I would not post while I was attending there because I felt that would be unfair to church or my kids. I really wanted to go back with the right attitude and give it another try which I felt I really did.
I have a question regarding the pastor’s salaries.
Those pastors in a church plant, are their salaries paid by the mother church in Seattle?
Do any of these MFI churches ever reveal the church’s finances to the body of believers? My general opinion of all MFI churchs are that they are are a dusted-off, revived version of the 1970s discipleship movement of the Charismatic movement.
Also, is there anyone else out there who has left the church only to leave teenagers behind in Generation Church?
Any readers know the answer to these questions?
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December 27th, 2007 at 10:34 am
My parents left my two teenage sisters at a Generation Church.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:43 am
The pastor’s salary in a MFI plant church is usually subsidized by the home church. Whether or not a pastor reveals the church finances is usually a matter of personal choice, but the general practice in MFI churches is to only reveal the most general financials.
December 27th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
I believe they are for a specified amount of time (like a year), until the church is large enough to support itself. That necessitates preaching tithe strongly in the beginning. But I think anyone who goes with the senior pastors as a core helper has to find his/her own job and support because the helpers get nothing.
Also, because of MFI ties, if there is a large financial need, the new church can usually get extra funds. What will often happen is that there will be a plea for funds pitched to the mother church for the need. CBC helped the SD church when they were looking to move to a new location.
So right. That is why the control factor is so strong. You will also notice that MFI “shares” their prophets for presbytery, so that also keeps a measure of control and discipleship.
Yes we did. However, because we discussed these things at home, our children were able to see the problems as well. So on their own accord they do not attend GC anymore.
December 27th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I am a former memeber of City Bible and now I am gay! I want to know why they told me to leave City Bible because I was in love with Robert Jameson?
December 28th, 2007 at 5:19 am
I’m pretty sure this is a joke. But on the off chance it’s true, I would only say that Robert Jameson is a married man, and they probably didn’t want you distracting him with all your glitter and gay swag.
January 2nd, 2008 at 2:50 pm
For those with questions about a church’s finances, their 501c3 requires them to disclose almost any financial information to a member, possibly even to someone who is not a member. The only exception to this as far as I know is the contribution amounts of church members which should be kept confidential. For those who don’t feel up to insisting on their right to non-profit disclosure, in general terms most of the larger MFI church pastors make well over $100k/yr including special offerings, royalties, and miscellaneous reimbursables (not including high paying spouse jobs).
January 3rd, 2008 at 7:03 am
questions asks: Do any of these MFI churches ever reveal the church’s finances to the body of believers?
questions: I have not seen the annual financial reports of all of the MFI churches, but if they follow the lead of Bible Temple/City Bible Church, they will not be revealing individual salaries in these reports. Though obvious, in my view, the reason is that they do not want the congregation to know how much the senior pastor and his Yes Men make thus potentially creating questions as to their biblical ethics (”and in everything be content with food and clothing…”), integrity or lifestyle. Recently, I had a vision of the Senior Pastor Cult in churches and its essence is secrecy and cover-up. I no longer trust pastors who are aloof from the people.
I will post an article on the blog in response to your excellent observation about the MFI and the Discipleship Movement.
January 7th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
im thinking about becoming a city church intern next year…
what do you guys think?
January 7th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
I think you would be wasting your money and time.
What can you get out of the internship program that you couldn’t get just volunteering to help the church?
January 7th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Don’t take the bait. No chance this is a serious question.
January 7th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I agree. But I was just thinking about posting something on the perils of the internship program. And I just wanted to reiterate how ridiculous I think the whole program is.
January 8th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
no. hah i am serious. im 17. wanting to go into ministry. i love judah smith, but i also believe in balance. so i check up here now and then. so. u guys hate the city church so much…i honestly am open to opinions.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
It’s true, I’m not a fan of the City Church. But that’s beside the point. I really think they are taking advantage of you here.
Look, if it was just a matter of you volunteering your time, (i.e. all legitimate internships) than I wouldn’t really care.
But it costs something like $4000 to do this internship. That’s unbelievable. You don’t get college credit. You don’t any type of training to help you develop a worthwhile skill. It’s just a waste of $4000, doing something you could do for free.
If you don’t want to go to college, that’s fine. There are a lot of people who make a very good living learning a trade. A friend of mine graduated City Christian highschool with me in ‘96, and he immediately went to work for a mechanic. Now with over 10 years of experience working on cars, he’s making quite the nice little living.
As someone who grew up in the church and went to a Christin High School, went to Generation Unleashed, let me promise you, 10 years from now, you are going to look back and wish you had spent those years doing something else.
Do you mind if I ask where you’re going to get the money to pay for the internship program? Because if it’s coming from your parents, take the money and instead backpack across Europe or Asia. It’ll be a whole lot more fun and you’ll learn alot more in the process.
January 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
JB,
I know many ex-interns. You pay them to be slave labor, and they tell you to be more spiritual you need to give…give…give (to them of course).
I say join the internship…you might start a blog of your own after a year. You check out this blog from time to time, so you will go in with your eyes wide open. It might be good for you to see what really goes on behind the scenes there.
Someone I know wanted to attend a funeral of a very close friend when participating in the internship, but it conflicted with a conference where the church needed a slave…um I mean volunteer. A main pastor told her she shouldn’t go and to “let the dead bury the dead”. Compassionate stuff.
On the bright side, joining the internship raises the odds the pastors will know your name.
January 8th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Ok, I’ll take the bait
I don’t know much about the details of the internship program, so I don’t have a strong opinion there. But I’ll summarize my critique of the organization as a whole.
Primarily, I don’t believe they take the study of the Bible very seriously. From the top down, I have seen them treat biblical interpretation and application very casually. Essentially, if a particular passage could be used to support their position during a particular sermon, they will use it to do so regardless of whether or not it was intended to be used that way by the original author.
If you want know where to find examples of this, start by listening to all of Wendell’s “Show Me The Money” sermons from their recent Prosperity with a Purpose conference. I don’t think they intend to misuse scripture. I just think they don’t place much value on making sure their use of scripture is consistent with the author’s intent. I think that is a mistake.
They also have what I believe to be an unbiblical church hierarchy. In my opinion, their behavior frequently suggests that their pastor’s are higher life forms. Their services, words, and literature consistently glorify the “senior pastor” in a way that deflects glory from its rightful place–Jesus.
Finally, I think they are a personality driven church. Within City Church and other MFI churches, I have seen people promoted within the organization because they had magnetic personalities and would attract membership despite serious character flaws and/or relative biblical ignorance. In my judgment this has created a culture of seriously nice, fun people who have not studied to show themselves approved, and cannot rightly divide the word of truth. Instead, they take their cues on biblical interpretation from wheover is above them on the pastoral food chain. It creates an environment ripe for doctrinal error, and I believe doctrinal error has a strong foothold in the prosperity gospel they preach.
City Church aside, when contemplating your future I would encourage you to be in the world but not of it. I also grew up in the church and felt that all good Christian kids should be pastors and work in “the ministry”. Long story short, I didn’t go to Bible college or a church internship and I don’t work for a church. I went to a secular university, and a completely pagan law school.
As a result, I have shared Jesus with many people who will never see the inside of a church. I maintain my loyalty to Christ, and everyone who knows me knows that. But in many ways, I am one of them. Because of our shared experiences, they feel like they can relate to my life. In the same way, I feel like I can relate to their life. This allows me to be a missionary in places no pastor will ever reach.
I wish there were more Christian lawyers and judges. I wish the universities I attended had more Christian professors who were experts in their respective fields and could provide a Christ exalting perspective to history, philosophy, biology, phyics, or whatever. I wish the church didn’t surrender academia to people who hate God.
The world is full of people who will never go to a church but still need to hear about Jesus. God sends missionaries foreign countries. He also sends missionaries to board rooms, laboratories, and governments. I don’t know what He has for you, but be open to the fact that you can get a traditional education, not work in a church, and do great things for Jesus. There is a world outside the church that needs to hear about him.
If you need character development or biblical training, the internship or some formal discipleship training might be good for you. If your faith is mature and your character strong, don’t be afraid to get outside the church. Go where He leads, but makes sure that He is the one leading.
DOC
January 8th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
Well said DOC, thank you … “I wish the church didn’t surrender academia to people who hate God”… wow! How many Christian professors don’t exist because “pastors” are not secure enough to encourage/exhort their flock to listen to Him and “know” what He has for them individually?
January 10th, 2008 at 6:33 am
Quick question and response…
Is there any good in MFI? (Please explain)
DOC:
Your response is the only one that I have seen on this thread that has balance, and is a fair observation without attack (oh no the A word). Why is it so hard for others to do the same on this blog? I have rarely seen it.
Blessings,
Star
January 10th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Thanks, Star. I obviously cannot answer for anyone else about their tone. When I first discovered this blog, I made some comments about tone and was quickly beaten up as “one of them”. I decided it wasn’t a hill I was going to die on.
As far as your question about whether or not there is any good in MFI–of course there is. You wouldn’t have to look very hard to find lots of godly men and women associated with MFI.
I suspect that most of the pastors involved in MFI are not there because they think Dick Iverson is King, but because their friends are part of it and it gives them a chance to be with them. We’re talking about hundreds (if not thousands) of pastors involved with MFI. Most of them don’t have a close association with the Bible Temple family tree, which I perceive to be the real root of all this.
My sense is that the MFI “cool kids” (who, as best as I can tell are part of the Bible Temple family tree) really embrace the church celebrity scene. But I really think its a fraction of the churches and pastors involved. Despite the rhetoric, most pastors in America are in it for the right reasons and are doing it the right way…that includes those involved with MFI. It just so happens that MFI’s net is wide enough that it has been connected to a lot of unfortunate leadership problems. And yes, I think their “style” is partly to blame for those problems.
I think ultimately we are here because we have all been connected enough to these churches to really care about them and the people. We became concerned that the behavior of the church wasn’t consistent with what we read in scripture. Then, we became very frustrated because when we expressed our concerns, some leadership refused to respond to the substance of what we were concerned about. Instead, they accused those who asked questions of being divisive, angry, bitter, disrepsectful of authority, unforgiving etc etc etc.
Frankly, from what I’ve read here, I think some of that is true. However, the initial concern about whether or not the church is being faithful to scripture is legitimate and needs to be discussed. Since many have found that this discussion is actually forbidden within some churches, we have come here.
People paint with broad brushes and certainly say things that they wouldn’t in person, but if you can get past that, I believe there is something meaningful going on here.
DOC
January 10th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
If you were to call Pastor Wendell or Gini they would provide their finical records to you. Its a non-profit federal law. The church is owned by its people. I think if you look for bad you’ll find it. Happy church hunting
January 10th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Did I miss something? KLB, what are you responding to here?
January 10th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
KLB,
I tried that while I was a tithing member there, someone challenged me to ask what their salary was. My wife emailed Gini directly and she wouldn’t give that info…they just give general numbers like salaries are 1/3 of the budget, they tithe 10% to somewhere (I don’t remember the exact numbers).
That was the first thing that raised a red flag about how open they are. It made me wonder what they had to hide.
My current pastor makes $70K/year, and is very open about it. I find that refreshing. Making more money isn’t a sin, but hiding it from the people who pay your salary is deceptive.
Isn’t it funny how we are supposed to trust our leaders, but they don’t trust the tithers to know their salary?
January 10th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Uhm, have you tried that? If so please post it. Be honest. You just made that up.
January 11th, 2008 at 7:34 am
DOC:
Good tone, good post. I agree that a lot of the stuff said here is broad… And as I said in my very first post on this entire web-site, there is no doubt in my mind that some of these situations are real. Some of the people here have been hurt, ridiculed, and dismissed without cause just because concerns were raised. Again, it’s not the matter of offense; it’s what you do once you are offended.
January 11th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Onestar, you have been thoughtful and kind. For that I thank you. But your statement:
misplaces the focus. I mean, Jesus Himself was ridiculed and dismissed. If He felt hurt, He handled it correctly. He forgave and always had a right attitude, even when addressing those very people who ridiculed and dismissed Him.
After you remove the factor of properly addressing and responding to a person who is in grave error, then what are you left with? A person in grave error.
Biblically, God has used other people to warn and admonish them — from Noah to John. The character or response of the warner did not negate the message.
grace
January 25th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I 100% totally agree with this statement. I wasted 5 years of my life thinking that working for the church and doing internships was the “holy” thing to do. Don’t be fooled by these bogus internships and even a PBC education. I am now a law school graduate working for a major film company in Los Angeles, but five years behind where I should be. Don’t buy into the lies.