Shake that Moneymaker!
Posted on January 15th, 2008 by catalyst into the Christian Pop Culture categorySo City Bible Church is holding their annual conference in April, which they cleverly titled "City Bible Conference".
And the City Church is holding their spring conference called, the "Global Strategy Conference".
And what do these two conferences have in common, but guest-speaker Joyce Meyer. Yes, the same Joyce Meyer who is being investigated by Senator Grassley for possible misuse of funds.
It really is just one big "Prosperity Club" scam. All the leaders travel to each other' church, convincing the congregation to give money in return for Blessings from the Lord.
And the Circle of Greed continues.
It's all so ridiculously transparent and stupid, that I am amazed anyone continues to fall for it.
But they do…
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January 15th, 2008 at 11:51 am
So much for “touch not my anointed”. We are told to reprove and rebuke those who do not stand for sound doctrine.
Paul knew this would happen, and he gave us dirction on what to do when it did happen.
January 16th, 2008 at 9:06 am
They have had Oral Roberts speak, (”I need to raise millions of $$$, or God is gonna take me home”) also Cindy Jacobs, who recently discovered that highway 35 in Texas is the holy highway spoken of in Isaiah 35…
How hard is it to draw a line down the middle of a piece of paper and write out the things Christ tells us to do on one side, and what He said not to do on the other? This will give you a good guideline to walk out the faith.
2 Corinthians 11:3 warns us about being led away from the simplicity of devotion to Christ.
January 16th, 2008 at 9:22 am
City Business is also charging 20 dollars to park this year. We need some type of watchdog group to keep track of this stuff. Oh wait, that’s us. Also check this out from http://www.apologeticsindex.org/636-joyce-meyer:
“In his five-page letter, Grassley also asked Meyer for:
• A “detailed accounting” of all her and her husband’s expense-account items, including clothing and cosmetic surgery.
• Information about any overseas bank accounts and deposits made outside the U.S. after international evangelical crusades.
• The tax-exempt purpose of items purchased for her ministry’s headquarters, such as a $23,000 marble-topped commode, a $30,000 conference table and an $11,219 French clock.
• A detailed accounting of total monthly expenses for upkeep on the Meyers’ personal residence, and any vacation homes, from 2004 to the present.
• An explanation of any personal use of the ministries’ tax-exempt assets, including “jets, employees, facilities,” from 2004 to the present.
• An explanation for how personal gifts from donors, such as money or jewelry, are handled and reported to the IRS”
That’s correct ladies and gentlemen, The lead-in speaker at CBC has a $23,000 toilet. This is the direction CBC is going. This is their idea of a successful ministry.
January 16th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Personally, I love the “Global Strategy Conference.” It sounds like all of the top military leaders are going to get together and compare military strategies. I bet it really makes you feel important when you get to tell people that you are going to the “Global Strategy Conference.” And the ambiguity of it just adds to the perceived importance.
But instead it’s one of those Christian conferences where everyone gets all excited after hearing someone speak about going out and fixing the world single-handedly (and getting all of the glory, of course), gives said speaker all of their life savings, and then goes back to work on Monday never changing a thing. You think people would catch on to these things after, say, once or twice. But instead, every year, at the same time of the year, they get all hyped up and give away all of their money to people who are thousands - if not millions - times richer than they are. And this is how Christ’s kingdom operates?
January 17th, 2008 at 6:02 am
Joyce Meyer doesn’t have a church for anyone to travel to.
Also, the commenter referring to a “$23,000 toilet” is grossly misinformed. Neither is there a toilet, nor did the piece of furniture in question cost the amount stated.
And here’s the best part–Joyce Meyer effectively receives no salary from her ministry (nor does her husband). She and her husband donate more than 100% of their salaries back to the ministry each year.
Transparent, definitely. Stupid…hardly. All her financial information is available on her website (transparent).
Perhaps if you’d listen more to what she says, and less about what others say about her, you’d have a better understanding about her, and her message.
While I don’t believe with everything Joyce says or does, I certainly know better than to believe everything I read–especially from a politician in an election year.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:05 am
“prosperity club scam” is a great one!
My wife and I just heard a tape that Hank Hanegraaff played on his radio talk show, The Bible Answer Man. In it, Joyce Meyer quotes Oral Roberts as saying that God showed him that the word “receive” really means “receipt.” So, as people give to God’s work, they receive a receipt from God so that whenever they have a need they can take their “receipt” to heaven and cash it in for answers to their prayers!
I can’t wait for the watch dogs on this website to bring to us what other tasty morsels Joyce Meyer might serve up in these upcoming conferences. The levels of ignorance and naivete are so deep in so many Charismatic Christians that they will believe just about anything. As many have already made clear on this site, ignorance and naivete are two characteristics common to cult followers. Here we see the cult of Personality mixed with the the cult of Prosperity.
January 17th, 2008 at 6:20 am
The $23,000 toilet is from Senator Grassley’s investigation, so until Joyce refute’s it, I’m going to let it stand.
She gets paid somehow. It may not be in a salary form, but she travels around in a private jet, so somehow I think she’s drawing an income from somewhere.
Did you actually look at her website? Do you understand the meaning of financial transparency? I want to thank you for asking me to go to her site, because it gave me a great blog idea, and it proved to me that you are brainwashed.
Senator Grassley isn’t up for re-election this year. He isn’t up for re-election until 2010. Also, Senator Grassley is a Republican from Iowa. Not a Democratic from Massachussetts. So that whole, “I’m being persucuted politically” line, isn’t going to work.
January 17th, 2008 at 11:15 am
It wasn’t a toilet, and it HAS been refuted. Refer to the press release on it. It’s on the website.
Yes, I’ve seen the JMM website. I did mis-state something–it shows the ministry’s financials–to a higher degree than is required by any law in these United States–not Joyce Meyer’s financials.
Brainwashed? Hardly! I simply don’t care to go around supporting every idiotic statement made about someone by those that know NOTHING about the person. As I stated before (or rather, meant to, but mis-typed), I don’t agree with everything Joyce Meyer says and does, but at the end of the day, her ministry feeds/shelters/cares for countless people who are in situations most of us would rather not think about.
I’m curious how much you really know about Joyce Meyer, if you didn’t realize she doesn’t have a church, and you didn’t know that she is a best-selling author in both fiction and non-fiction (something like 7 or 8 consecutive books have been number 1 on the NYT best-sellers list).
How can you possibly know what’s in this woman’s heart? You don’t appear to have any knowledge about her that isn’t from some form of bash-blog.
She lives off royalties of her writings and teachings. But, she doesn’t even get all of her royalties. Royalties on any items sold through her ministry go to the ministry. She gets her money from stuff sold elsewhere.
I don’t believe I said Grassley was up for re-election. But, he is a politician; and it is an election year. I’m not saying it is a political stunt, but it wouldn’t be the first time something like that has happened. It should also be noted (and is also available on that website) that Grassley’s inquiry came less than a month after Joyce Meyer’s Ministry received a letter from the IRS stating they had passed their annual audit (yes, annual) with no problem.
What bothers me is this assumption that these preachers like Joyce Meyer personally take the money sent to them, cash it, and go buy something exotic. How ridiculous is that? Money doesn’t go straight into her pocket, like is regularly suggested by bloggers, and even journalists. Her name is on an organization that she founded, and while 25 years ago that money probably did go straight to her and her husband, today it employs 600+ people worldwide. Do you honestly think there’s a way to have your hand in that cookie jar without someone noticing?
Does she keep too much of what does go to her ministry? Perhaps, but with a salary of less than zero, that’s a really hard argument to make. In my opinion, it’s not for me to decide. That’s God’s decision in the end.
And, here’s something to think on: think about Grassley’s questions, so kindly added by Sola Fide, above. Put your own name in place of Joyce’s. And in place of her ministry, put the place you work (or if you’re lucky enough to own the place, great!). You get the idea.
How can this possibly be just? She is a private citizen (just like you)! I’m unfamiliar with the portion of our Constitution that allows the legislative branch to demand this kind of information from a private citizen (though I’ll admit, it could be out there). Just because someone doesn’t have anything to hide doesn’t mean they should willfully throw open their front door.
I want to add an apology for where I said:
My intent was “the Royal You” where I said “you’d.” I should have appropriately used something less ambiguous, like “people would.” It was not meant to be a personal attack, and I didn’t catch it until after posting.
And, finally, a commode is not a toilet. Just like a rectangle is not a square.
Best regards.
January 17th, 2008 at 11:25 am
It’s not ridiculous. It’s been happening for years. Preachers have been using Christ to get rich, since the beginning of time. It’s just that this time around it’s called the “prosperity doctrine”.
We clearly come at this from two different positions. You are very trusting and I am very skeptical. In the end though, I think we’ll find the truth. And if Joyce Meyer is completely above board, then, I will apologize and retract all my negative statements about her personal finances.
And I have heard Joyce Meyer speak at City Bible Church. She came and spoke at a phophectic assembly several years ago. And she promised the church a huge multi-level parking lot.
oddly enough, a couple of years after that, I was talking to a friend in New York who heard her speak at his church in Lima, NY. And she promised that congregation the same things she promised City Bible. So, you know, at least she’s got that going for her…
January 17th, 2008 at 11:35 am
catalyst, when you heard joyce meyer “promise [two] church[es] a huge multi-level parking lot” was she claiming to be moving in the prophetic, saying that this is what they would experience if they preached a certain way, or what?
January 17th, 2008 at 11:43 am
Yeah, she claimed to be moving in the prophetic. But I don’t think she was encouraging the pastors to speak in a certain way. She was just promising amazing things for City Bible.
Honestly, at this point in my life, I ate it up. I totally believed her. It wasn’t until I had the conversation with my friend, that I started to think maybe she promised every church great blessings.
It was the multi-level parking lot thing that caught my attention, because it’s kind of an odd thing to promise to both a church in Portland, Oregon and a church in Lima, New York. But hey, what do I know, maybe God was big on solving parking problems that year.
January 17th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Chad S,
I’ll take your premise that Joyce M is squeaky clean. Why won’t she then cooperate with Senator request? It’s not a small deal for the US senate to request your financial records. In fact this is a huge deal and it’s not going away. So why won’t she oblige the request? Simply stated, when things don’t make sense it’s because something is not true. What’s not true here is that she has nothing to hide. Because if there was nothing to hide she would have turned over the records by Dec 6th as requested. Are you following here? I’m trying to be as simple as possible for you, because somehow I feel your getting a little deceived by her charisma.
January 17th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Chad,
What does a false teacher look and sound like according to the Bible? How are we to tell who the wolves in sheep’s clothing are?
January 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Craig asked Chad: What does a false teacher look and sound like according to the Bible? How are we to tell who the wolves in sheep’s clothing are?
Re: false teachers in the NT, I would highly recommend reading the following article from The Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 3, pgs. 144-147, entitled, “Heresy and Orthodoxy in the NT.”
Here is the first paragraph or so of this excellent article:
“The issue of whether or not particular religious expressions conformed to established norms and/or doctrines was certainly important within early Judaism and early Christianity. However, it is important to note that at early stages “established norms” by definition did not exist. For early Judaism of the Greco-Roman period, diversity was prevalent, with various forms of Judaisms each understanding themselves to be the true successor to biblical “Israel.””
“The origins of Christianity are bound up with theological controversies surrounding true and false doctrine, controversies occurring first within Judaism and subsequently within Christianity. The NT as a literary manifestation is the result of these debates…. Debates about true and false doctrine are thus presupposed in the NT, although the recorded material is only a cross-section of what must have occurred in the real life of the early Church.” (end quote)
The more that I have studied the NT, the more I am coming to the conclusion that most everything was written to rebuke or correct something else. Sometimes the idea that is being confronted is addressed directly, e.g., the subject of the anti-christ in I John, other times, it is necessary to know the background in order to better understand what is being said.
A few NT verses and passages having to do with “false brothers” “false apostles” and “false teachers” and apostates are the following:
2 Cor.11:5,13,26; Galatians 2:4, etc.; 2 Peter 2 (all); and Jude (all).
I recall how Paul Crouch became so upset on TBN about people, little doubt, like Hank Hannagraff, etc. who criticized the prosperity doctrine, etc. (see: Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hannagraff) that he he wrote the foreword to James R. Spencer’s book, Heresy Hunters: Character Assassination in the Church, in my view, to try to stem the tide of criticism.
Part of the jacket of the book says:
“An alarming error is sweeping the Christian Church. A small, self-appointed band is confusing Bible scholarship with character assassination…No one is safe from these heresy hunters. Bob Larson, Mike Warnke, Benny Hinn, and many others have suffered at the hands of these pseudo-journalists. Jim Spencer suggests that the heresy hunters themselves might be the real heretics because their misguided zeal risks splitting the church. He calls upon them to abandon their inquisition.”
January 17th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Dave,
You’ve mentioned Hank “hand grenade” Hannagraff twice in this one blog. It seems you agree with what he says? I don’t know if you’ve done any research on him, but I just went to yahoo and typed in his name and it all wasn’t good. Just wanting to know why you place so much weight on his “theology.”
January 17th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Hi FormerPBCPrez: I mentioned Hank these couple of times because he has, in my view, a good critique of the Prosperity Doctrine in his book, Christianity in Crisis. I happened to hear a live quote from Juanita Bynum and Joyce Meyer played on his show which both were rather shocking.
I don’t agree with everything he says, however. In his book, Counterfeit Revival, I would probably have much with which to disagree with him as he criticizes the Toronto Blessing, being slain in the Spirit, the Vineyard Movement, etc.
In my opinion, there is a mixture of good and bad in all of us. I try to look for truth no matter what the source.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:24 am
So my mom just emailed me, and told me that she thinks it was Cindy Jacobs who prophecied about the parking structure, and not Joyce Meyer. She doesn’t think Joyce Meyer has ever been to City Bible Church, before.
So, you know what, I could be wrong about Joyce. I’ll admit, I jumped all over her because of the Senator Grassley investigation, but maybe she is innocent.
From now on, I promise to withhold judgement on her, until I have all the facts. I’ll wait until the investigation is over, before I judge her.
January 18th, 2008 at 6:47 am
Wow….. Now that I can respect!
January 18th, 2008 at 8:57 am
catalyst: it was not joyce meyer but probably cindy jacobs…
cat, thanks for the update!
……then who was the woman you heard prophecy about a new parking structure in Lima, New York? Joyce? Cindy? someone else?
January 18th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Another lady speaker at the NWBC has been Rachel Hickson. I’m pretty sure she was there in ‘04 and ‘05. I’m not saying she promised a parking structure….but she was there as a speaker.
January 18th, 2008 at 10:18 am
Hi Cat, give my best wishes to your mom. We went to a lot of prayer meetings together for a young lad with cancer. It did not end as we hoped, and I kind of lost track of your dad and mom after that.
January 18th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Rachel wasn’t the kind to give those types of words, so I’m guessing Cindy Jacobs or Barbara Wentroble … not that it matters.
I was there too, since he is the nephew of a long-time friend. Very sad.
January 20th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Sola Fide,
You’re misinformed. Joyce Meyer HAS cooperated. She was the first to submit a response, and did so before the senator’s deadline.
AP report about responses
Catalyst, actually, I’m generally quite a skeptic, too.
And, in this case, I was, as well. But, I’ve had the ability to do a lot of research on Joyce. Like I said initially, I don’t agree with everything she says/does, but, at the end of the day, she does more than the average person to make the world a better place.
just another link
Best wishes to you!
January 20th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
but if Joyce is doing much to make the world a better place…….
WHY does she live so extravagantly with opulence surrounding her?
WHY does her ministry have MILLIONS of DOLLARS of assets?
Did she donate a sizeable chunk to Katrina salvage or to flood victims in Oregon? (just an example)
January 20th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Obviously, I can’t answer this, as I’m not her. I have an opinion, but that’s all it is. Ultimately, she must answer for this (as I said initially).
Does it? Do you mean in the form of a building and property for the building to sit on? Or do you mean in terms of computers and office furniture? Or do you mean in the form of a world class broadcast facility?
My church (a Pres.-USA church—pretty mainstream) just raised $8 million+ for a capital expansion campaign. Why does any church have a capital campaign? Shouldn’t that kind of money go to helping the poor?
Yes.
January 20th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
No, 33 Million is cash and about 10 million in investments. That doesn’t include buildings and stuff.
Does this qualify as storing up treasures on earth?
My main issue with her and her type is not the money, but the message of “word faith” and prosperity. It is a false gospel.
Below is a contrast between her and another teacher.
The Doctrine of Babylon
January 20th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Wow, Craig. Excellent. Thanks.
January 21st, 2008 at 8:49 am
why shouldnt she live extravagantly, and why shouldnt her ministry have millions of dollars….dont want to start an argument, just wondering
maybe the 33 million has plans of being dispersed throughout the world to places where its needed in the future? or its there just in case….its not that easy to spend 33 million, and not too smart to spend it right away.
January 21st, 2008 at 8:56 am
I’ll let Jesus answer you on this one:
Jesus repeatedly said to give to the poor, He didn’t say “please give to my disciples so they can live luxurious lives”. On the contrary Jesus said:
The biggest problem is what they teach is a false gospel.
January 21st, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Not to split hairs here, but I read somewhere that Joycie’s $23,000 “toilet” was neither accurately reported as costing $23,000 nor a toilet in the first place. It was a commode, typically a very expensive piece of antique furniture. If I can remember where I read that, I’ll post it.
Meanwhile, click here,
Just saying.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:54 am
That’s a nice looking piece of furniture there! I wonder if there is enough room underneath it for a homeless veteran to sleep?
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:06 am
speaking of homeless, why is that most immigrants/refuges from other countries can get welfare untill theyre on their feet, some manage to keep receiving wellfare well after they can support themselves, and the homeless cant? whats stopping them? ive always wondered about that, maybe someone can explain that.
January 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm
And it should be said that out of the kindness of her holy heart, Joyce Meyer has NEVER asked a homeless person to sleep under her commode! I doubt Ken and Gloria could say the same.