Who would have thought?
Posted on January 30th, 2008 by Reformed Pope into the Comments From Others categoryDetox Church Group has this to say:
Davie Said,
"I have found that dialogues on BLOGS are generally unproductive and unlikely to effect any change on either side of those ‘dialogues’. In fact, discussing in ‘abstract’ topics that are rooted in actual personal events and experiences tend to not be helpful."
What exactly is your expertise on blogging?
Contrary to your comment, this Blog has been one of the most helpful forums for those of us in our town who dared to disembark from an authoritarian Pastor Cult church. It helped us see that we weren’t the crazy ones, going against the status quo of what has become the Church today, that indeed there is a community of Christians who actively engage their minds as well as their spirits, and seek to know the meaning of the Scriptures.
If not for this blog, I personally may have given up on Christianity completely because 95% of what I had seen represented in the Christian community around me or if I ever glimpsed Christians on TV, proved to be (and still is) an embarrassment to me and I cringe to think I was a part of that. Not so much because of pride, although that could be lurking in me, but because it doesn’t echo the Spirit of Christ we see in the Bible. I could have easily walked away if what I was seeing was all there was going to be (i.e. Is this IT?? You’ve GOT to be kidding!). But the Blog, along with the healthy, non-dysfunctional, non-authoritarian, non-pastor cult church I am attending today with a few close friends and family, has helped me see that Jesus really IS who He represents Himself to be in the Bible.
I never wanted to give up on Christ. He’s the sane one, the beautiful one, the all-loving one who listens and really cares about the condition of my heart and life. Who I want to give up on are Posers who use His name to do strange and controlling things to the people they have been entrusted with. In fact, I’ve pretty much written those types off. I have no room in my life for them anymore. My friend said it best the other day that they aren’t on the same team as we are. They aren’t allies, comrades, brethren who are slightly tweaked in the wrong direction. Unfortunately, because of their evil and controlling behaviour, who they resemble most are the enemies of Christ.
We’ve individually come to the conclusion that the boundary line has to be drawn and these types are not our types and we don’t want to be associated with them ever again. There can be a forgiveness but forgiveness is no cause stupidity and letting the Takers take all again — some of these people are sociopaths cloaked in their Religiousness and most of the church is too gullible to even see it. And the world is sitting by watching God’s people being duped over and over again. Why would they want to come to Christ if that’s what is going to happen to them??
Thank GOD for these voices on the Blog and in the Normal Church who are helping undo the damage done. By pointing back to the simplicity of the scriptures and the grace of God and what Jesus accomplished on the cross, it reminds us not to return to slavery again (Gal 5:1). David Mackin’s comments have been extremely helpful as well as others who have gone through similar strangeness — in our case beginning with borderline abuse that grew into blatent abuse, but in some of their cases extreme abuse. Also, the HUMOR of some of the other Bloggers has been most helpful, even if it is sometimes irreverant, because it lightens us up and helps us not take ourselves quite so seriously.
Thank you Detox…we greatly appreciate your comments.
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January 30th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
That post should be a link in the FAQ section for why this blog exists. Excellent.
January 30th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Amen brother! David obviously never expereinced the powers that be at CBC brainwashing our young minds and making us into mad scientists who mindlessly followed anything the “leadership” told us to. This blog has opened up the reality of what has been and still is going on. I only hope and pray that the next generation of CBCers will be able to question authority much sooner then we did.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:30 am
Detox wrote: David Mackin’s comments have been extremely helpful as well as others who have gone through similar strangeness…
Detox, Thank you for your kind words!
February 1st, 2008 at 11:05 am
Thanks you guys - I was feeling a tinge of writers’ remorse for being so preachy even though I meant every word.
I’m so glad that my investigative friend happened upon your Blog — I think it was about 2 years ago now! If it weren’t for her need to get to the bottom of what we went through she may have never found you soon enough to help us deal with all the fall out of leaving the weird church first and later reckoning with all we allowed ourselves to go through at the weird church for an embarrassingly long time–years that we will never get back. Your Blog is such a great place to revisit when more of the stuff resurfaces — so hopefully you’ll be around for awhile!
February 1st, 2008 at 11:46 am
Amen. Keep the blog running and raise a voice against the spiritual oppression that is happening all over America in mega-churches. People wonder why church attendence keeps dwindeling year after year. Well it’s apparent to me. We have church leaders who just don’t get it. They don’t know how to pastor or lead people. They just want money, fame, and the ability to control. God is a patient God, but someday his judgement will be swift and harsh. I hope we can rescue as many people as possible before that happens.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Totally true Ex…Slave. Jesus is all about freedom and we are fortunate to live in a country where freedom is supposed to reign. Instead the control freak pastors (and pastorettes) expect their minions to be accountable to them, bestowing permission upon them with the extending of a sceptor here or withholding it there. Meanwhile they don’t have to be accountable to anyone and feel entitled to use church money for their personal gain. It’s all such a horrid nightmare.
I inwardly freak out at control, or even subtle pressure from others. I mean, I think I’m old enough now that I don’t need to ask permission to have a voice in whatever form it takes. I can see asking your boss for the day off or asking for an appointment with a leader, or even asking permission to use a copywritten song (and there are avenues to do that). That’s different than asking for permission to speak, unless you are in a courtroom of law where you ask the judge etc.
One of the best things about blogging is that no one gives you permission, you just do it when something occurs to you, somthing inspires you that someone else has said. Talk about the freedom of expression! I just love that! I wish I could send a thank you note to the founding fathers for including freedom of speech in the Bill of Rights. Although if you abuse the privilege (which has been done by some annoying bloggers here last year) you can get flack and rightly so.
I guess one of the most important freedoms I’ve felt I’ve needed to fight for is being heard when so many have tried to silence my voice for so long. I let the intimidation happen at times because it came with a definite presence especially at old church world. And that presence left you speechless and you wondered what just happened. Now that I’m aware of that spirit and what it can do, it makes you want to shout now — I will do anything I can to help people get free of that insidious grip so i’m with you on the rescue thing!
February 2nd, 2008 at 1:57 pm
I always thought that Paul’s quintessential self-description was that of being a ’slave’ of Christ Jesus.
In Romans 6, Paul describes all true believers as being ’slaves to righteousness’.
Paul also declares that while he might not be under ‘the law (Mosaic)’, he would never be out from under the Law of God.
In my opinion, talk of Biblical ‘freedom’ can never be discussed and/or described in light of the ‘American’ type of freedom. There is no such thing as ‘free speech’ in Christ. There is no such thing as ‘rights’ in Christ.
We are simply free to, and have right to die and live under His rule in the Kingdom. As our good apostle Paul says, “The love of Christ constrains us.”
February 3rd, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Here’s to the De-Tox Church Group –because there is a group that stands behind that name –and the numbers are growing! As people get healed
and set free they are then able to look at this blog and see how similar it is
to all we went through at that ‘other place.’
So thank you De-Tox writer for putting it so succinctly for its alot of pent up anger, rage -into understanding and mobilization to get the word out:
Church doesn’t have to be like that!! In fact if it is –good chances are they
never knew Him. As our new humble pastor likes to say -if you really knew Him there is no way you would act like that. Well said and believe me that one gave us alot to think about from our prosperity–lets build to 10,000 –
cult driven –worship center days.
We are truly un-stepford-ized and free at last –but it takes alot of stages to get healed! Humor and this blog is one way to deal with the anger
of being used when we realized –we were just Cogs in their wheel.
A wheel to run people over with that is.
**For all those who need a laugh just google –You Tube and watch
Joel Osteens–”Your best teeth now.” video.
It is hilarious and so true –can’t wait till we film ours.
February 4th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Davie said:
That’s one way to look at it Davie. Here’s another way to look at it for those of us who go into a tail spin when ultimatums are placed heavily upon us:
We each have the choice everyday to say yes to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. And as I understand Christ’s motivation to purchase our freedom by his sacrifice on the cross, He certainly wouldn’t want us to begrudgingly surrender to Him. He would rather have us freely come. It’s a fine line, I know, and since we humans easily fall prey to legalism, we need to guard ourselves from authoritarian voices who demand that we choose correctly. Rom 7:23 reminds us of the constant war we have within ourselves. In fact, some of us may not struggle with certain vices but instead may suffer from a bent toward religiousness (which is an addiction in itself) which too can be labeled as a thorn in the flesh, the Romans struggle between soul and spirit.
When we try to force our own constraints on each other, why are we surprised when there’s rebellion? People need to come to a place of repentance and surrender by themselves, led by the Holy Spirit. If there is one thing we don’t have the ‘right’ to do, it’s cram God’s grace down each other’s throat and paint bleak pictures of slavery and confinement of seranthood. People need the opportunity to respond to the Holy Spirit because they recognize their need for Jesus and then out of gratitude for what He’s done for them personally serve God in the way he leads them.
When you say
That approach may work for you, but it doesn’t really motivate the majority of us and cause us to want to jump in and put our hand to the plow in God’s great vineyard.
February 4th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Free at Last said:
Here Here my good friend Free at Last! and because we live in a free country, and because we have freedom in Christ, we have a choice to leave places where the leaders pose as Christ’s followers but resemble Pharisees more than Christ. When the light goes on and you realize ‘hey I don’t HAVE to live like this anymore and I’m FREE to go!’ that’s when you take responsibility for your OWN walk with God and find a HEALTHY place to worship Him.
Forgive me for my preachiness but I can’t help add this:
The buck stops with each of us. It’s not going to cut it when we say to the Lord on judgment day “but my pastor said…” “my pastor did my thinking for me”. Could it be, and none of us will know till the day comes for us, that the Lord may ask us why we didn’t take more advantage of the freedom He purchased for us on the cross? and why did we allow other men to bully us into being slaves to build their personal kingdoms manipulating us with their hidden agendas?
February 4th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
De-tox church group said: People need to come to a place of repentance and surrender by themselves, led by the Holy Spirit.
De-tox, great comments about God’s love and patience!
Davie Copp said: There is no such thing as ‘free speech’ in Christ.
Davie, What do you mean by this? At face value, such a statement sounds like the Gestapo in religious garb. God created us with with free speech and, from my understanding of him, he wants to hear our thoughts, questions and even our doubts expressed to him from our hearts (Job). From my experience, it is senior pastors/leaders, who have turned the church from a community of faith to a business enterprise who quash the free speech of God’s people.
Davie Copp said: There is no such thing as ‘rights’ in Christ.
Davie, I heard this as a statement from Bill Gothard years ago. It goes along with his false teaching of “covering” that is an unrealistic and unbiblical doctrine full of half-truths.
Davie, I am preparing to respond to you some more on this blog, and I know that the blog, like email, can be treacherous for misunderstandings, but I have to say that as I read many of your comments that even though they use some intelligent terms, I need to share with you how I feel a strong spirit of black and white, top-down control and thinking coming through them. I am probably wrong, but I don’t sense a lot of humility, brokenness or compassion toward people. I don’t know whether you are still at the same church or what your ministry position is, but I want you to reflect on the possibility of how the very intense and strong prophetic ministry of the founding pastor of your church might have affected you in the way you think about spiritual authority.
February 4th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Dave,
Thanks for your comments and thoughts and questions
Regarding ‘free speech’. My point is that, as I see it, the Scripture does not allow us to say ‘whatever we want’, but that our mouth and speech is to be governed by Christ and His Word. Verses such as Ephesians 5.4-5 clearly limit our speech to only that which the Lord would be pleased with. That is not legalism, it being submitted to the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself said “I say nothing unless I hear My Father say it’ implying that He Himself did not have ‘free speech’.
Regarding a Christian having ‘no right’s, I am referring to 1 Corinthians 6.19-20 where we are told that we are ‘not our own’. We have the right to accept or reject Christ, but once we accept Him and His Lordship, our rights are lost into His will. (As I see it in the Scripture).
My theological framework is most definitely a ‘black and white’ version. But I am not sure the post-modern alternative is attractive to me.
Regarding my background and present state. I am currently the Senior Pastor (sorry about the Pastor Cult lingo), of the church in which I grew up. My views of Scripture were probably influenced by Dave Schoch, to some degree, but I was heavily influenced and mentored by Ern Baxter. (Of the Shepherding Movement infamy).
We do believe in a ‘top-down’ gravitational flow of authority, but that is not equal to ‘control. Also, that you ’sense’ that there is a lack of ‘humility, brokenness, and compassion toward people’ is interesting to me.
There is no basis of you sensing that, except, maybe from hearing in me words and phrases and concepts that were in your past connected to some leader who exhibited the lack of those things in relationship to me. Are you letting the ‘prophetic spirit’ of old Bible Temple days kick in? (Grin)
It is possible to have a ‘top down’ authoritative church system of church government AND have happy, peaceful, satisfied, intelligent, serving, and freely submitted people in that community.
Lastly, I am curious about a little phrase in your comments. I am hoping that I am reading too much into it, but it could construed as a strange but cheap shot. What are you meaning when write ‘even though they use some intelligent terms’? I am not trying to ‘use intelligent terms’, or even be ‘intelligent’. I am just dialoguing with the posts on this BLOG and interjecting my thoughts, which flow from my personally held beliefs.
Should I intentionally try to be unintelligent in order to appear as not trying to use intelligent terms? This is, as you said, and I agree, one of the problems with BLOGS. Too many people take themselves too serious. I take the Kingdom serious, but we ought to all take ourselves not quite so serious and fight FOR the Kingdom, and not against one another.
As one of the great civil rights leaders of our era once said, “Can’t we all just get along?” (Rodney King) (heh, heh, heh)
February 4th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Davie (or Rodney) said:
I hope you don’t mind me jumping in and answering though you are addressing only David.
I guess we can get along as long as we agree to disagree. At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, when you see an over-reaction to your earlier black and white statements used with scripture it’s because that stance affects some of us like touching an open wound . Some of us are learning to speak out rather than remain silent like we did in the past when we let an authority figure tell us how to think… Some of what you are hearing on my part is that. That is, IF you are even hearing it or reading it. I realize that since I’m not a senior pastor, or even a Bible scholar, my words most likely mean little to you– IF you are like other MFI senior pastors I’ve run into and served under over the years who use the same verbage you use and consider themselves high above.
February 4th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Davie said: Also, that you ’sense’ that there is a lack of ‘humility, brokenness, and compassion toward people’ is interesting to me. There is no basis of you sensing that, etc.
Davie, I think that my use of these words were just the usual words that I associate with black and white thinking and top-down leadership - esp. the latter to the negative extreme. When I said it, I knew I ran the risk of coming across judgmental because I never really was close to you and it has been many years since I preached at your youth camp. I think that I should have just stopped at “black and white” and “top down.” I apologize for taking my sense/reaction to such a belief system too far.
Davie said: But I am not sure the post-modern alternative is attractive to me.
Davie, I don’t think that the only alternatives to Christians intellectually is either “post-modern” or “black-and-white” thinking, but this will have to wait for another day.
Davie said: What are you meaning when write ‘even though they use some intelligent terms’?, etc.
Davie, Thanks for calling me on this one, too. I have grown so accustomed to pastors in the MFI movement being uneducated (I admit that it surprised me that you had heard/read of Dunn’s Unity and Diversity in the NT!) that I jumped to the conclusion that you were “trying” to sound educated. Again, I apologize for this. I need to take you for face value and not “read in” other’s ignorance into someone else’s comments.
(Today, I eat humble pie…mmmmm tastes (choke!?)… good….)
P.S. Speaking of education, I noticed that KRI has the initials of “doctor” after his name in the Spirit-Filled Believers Bible, having made the contribution of the notes to the book of Psalms. Do you know what kind of degree this is and who conferred it upon him?
February 4th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
DeTox said, “…My words most likely mean little or nothing to you.”
Sigh…If your words meant little or nothing to you, would I be spending valuable time on this BLOG? What is most intriguing is your phrase “most likely” as if most Senior Pastors would not have any use for what people other than scholars or other Senior Pastors have to say. Could I say as kindly as possible, that you need to get out a little more and meet some more pastors.
David Mackin,
Regarding the venerable James D.G. Dunn…His work on Baptism of the Holy Spirit is one of my absolute most favorites. His Unity & Diversity is a little suspect (to me), although I guess I would have to say that there is some ranking within the Scriptures in that all have value, but we do value Paul’s thoughts on church over Peter’s, don’t we? I am not convinced that this means a ‘canon within a canon’.
Having slopped enough proof that Dunn is known, let me say that I am not ‘educated’ in any formal manner (except a couple of years a ‘Bible College’), and am not a big fan of ‘official’, or ‘accredited’, or ‘institutional’ or ‘formal’ biblical training. I do love to read and have read most of what anyone else would have read. (Kant excluded, although his biography sits quite forlornly on my nightstand waiting for some attention.)
If one of our guys has a mind and bent towards learning, I would encourage him to get a degree in history, international relations, etc., and most definitely not Bible College, Theological or Seminarian training.
Regarding Keith Richard, I am not sure who gave it to him. I have no problem with a friend somewhere honoring another friend, but it should be noted after the letters as such. Like, David Mackin, Ph.D.GFT (GFT for gift).
I am not in MFI and have not been with them since the late 90’s. In fact, I haven’t had much interaction with anyone from the ‘old days’ in almost 10 years. We definitely love and honor our Latter Rain/Restoration roots, however, we have sung the Song of the Bow and transitioned into another world.
So, I agree with so much of what is written about that system, I am just concerned that what is found in much of the writings to be too laced with that which also kills and does not bring life. I understand the pain and suffering that many have been through, but think we have to be better judges and quieter critics.
Just my opinion, given with gentleness, humility, and a dash of compassion. (Grin)
February 4th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Davie, Thank you for sharing…(and I will accept your gift of a Ph.D. through the blogging spirit)….I feel my curiosity peaked…May I ask why you left MFI - and does this mean that your roots (DS) had a problem with MFI? Also, what is the Song of the Bow? church? movement? apostolic covering? etc.
February 4th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Except KRI is NOT the author of his commentary contribution on Psalms. Ray Grant wrote it all. I know this first hand as I typed it up for Ray and questioned him about it at the time … how he does the work and KRI gets the accolades…
February 4th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
Ern Baxter—Shepherding Movement —Covering?!?!?!?##$%%%%###^
Oh My!
Red Alert! Red Alert! May Day!
Read the book ‘The Toxic Church’ and here’s to your detox Davie!
This blog is a great place to begin –just for your info many on here were
in key leadership positions in very large churches
February 5th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Hi Dave,
Let’s just say that I had strong differences with MFI regarding the philosophy running underneath, behind, and through the system.
To my knowledge, DS was very loyal to MFI until he died.
The ‘Song of the Bow’ refers to the song David wrote upon learning that Saul had died. It represents what I feel would be an accurate response to the ‘old order’, no matter how wicked, inaccurate or wrong we might feel it is, the Song of the Bow keeps our hearts pure as we move to build the new order with integrity, free from the ‘toxins’ and poisons that would attempt to remain in us through inaccurate responses to the abusive system out of which we have exodused.
Beyond that, I would be more than happy to talk via e-mail, in that my comments are causing Catalyst extra ‘monitoring’ work. And as I had said before, come by and see us some time if you are in the LA area.
Davie
February 5th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
That’s really interesting LL. I got given that bible by my ACTION teacher. I went through and read and highlighted all of “Pastor Dick’s” comments and had to write a report on it (Homeschool mom FTW). (Uhm, that’s “For The Win” pastor Davie). I wish I had known this back then, it would have been a far more interesting report.
Careful there, you’re starting to sound a little bitter.
February 5th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Thanks for the reply Davie and I’ll take a chance you’ll decide to revisit the blog again to read this.
Sorry to make you think I’m lumping you in with the type of senior pastor that I’m tired of, but the mention of “most likely” was meant to give you the benefit of the doubt since I don’t know you and have only your blog comments to go by.
I have met quite a few. Thankfully the pastor at the church we now attend is helping me, and my other detox cronies, get over the trust-issues-with-senior-pastors disorder just by his desire to stay humble and approachable (his wife too). There’s a reason I included Detox in my blog name. I’m in the process of detoxing from church weirdness along with a growing group in our area who are all at different stages of healing and reclaiming our true faith. Somedays we ARE quite functional. Then something surfaces again and we do try our best to let the Lord deal with things. Unfortunately those are the times we end up blogging so we probably do sound like crazy people. Mainly what sets us off is we hear that the same pastors are still behaving badly and damaging more Christians… but I don’t really want to detour on all of this.
What I’d like to respectfully suggest, if I may, is that you keep your heart open to those in your care that have come to you from spiritually abusive churches. You may not have anyone like that yet, but with all the megachurch hoopla going on in the world today, you will. I don’t know what you have going at your church so you may already have something in place to minister to those who may sound like some of us on the blog — they may need a support group or recovery class. You and your wife may want to prayerfully consider who you select to care for this group because the type of person can either patiently help them or send them running the other way. If it were our church I’d want somebody knowledgeable and well read on this issue and is sympathetic to their plight. I think the fact that you would even take time to post on this blog says alot about you and I’m glad you and David and others can go at it with all the scriptures and such. Hope we didn’t scare you away but if so try to give us a little time… and drop back by. That’s what we all do I think. Here for awhile then life happens and then come back… so hope you blog again sometime.