Just so we hit every major issue. Here's a story from a "person of color" who attended City Bible in the 90's.
I was at Bible Temple/CBC back in the mid to late 90s. Became a Christian there in fact. I was heavily inovled for about 5 years and met my wife in TREK (yeah baby, I married a true blue BT princess!) youth group.
However, around my senior year when me and her were getting really serious, I was ostrosized by the leadership because she is white and I am primarily black. They weren’t really for the inter-racial thing (dame fools) and came out really hard against us. Had multiple meetings, phone calls to parents, and “pastorial” warnings about what we were getting ourselves into. They told her (and I quote verbatem) that “black men only take white women as trophies.” Can you believe that sh*t. Anyway, going through that expereince on top of questioning what I really wanted to do with my life (they were all trying to force me to go to PBC because I needed some “biblical training if I wanted to serve in ministry”), made be bounce out of there real quick.
The best part about it though, is that I took my wife with me (boy were they upset about that – we both lost our best friends over it because the leadership told them to stop talking to us). Anyway, we got married a few years later and served as youth pastors at another church for awhile. then decided to move to Los Angeles so I could pursue my dream of becoming a sports agent. So far so good.
This is why sometimes bitterness is acceptable folks. It's not good to stay bitter. But uh, just because you leave a church angry and bitter, doesn't mean you are necessarily at fault. It may just be that the church is full of racist old white guys.
Wow!
That was really an offensive statement by suggesting that “black men only take white women as trophies” what kind of trophy? what were they suggesting, that white is better than colored? Where is the principle that “all men are created equal?”, ” we should not be judged by the color of our skin but by the content of of character?”. When I decided to tell church leaders that I got engaged ( to a black man, BTW) I told them that I will not follow any pressure neither do I need any approval, so far they follow my request.
let’s make a list of all the biracial “approved” marriages at city bible …
I would not stay at a church either if I knew for a fact that the leadership were racist. However, I do have to disagrre with the comment that it is “ok” to leave a church bitter. We have all been offened in many different ways by many different people, but it doesn’t give us the license, as believers, to lower our standards. Why stoop to that level and act ignorant towards ignorance? I believe that the proper thing to do is leave, dust your feet off at the door, and take the high road. That is a lost concept amongst Christians today. What happened to taking the higher road. Our battle is not against flesh and blood. There is a bigger enemy here that really enjoys our bitterness against one another. It’s actually the bait he uses to grab us.
[Comment ID #31115 Will Be Quoted Here]
If I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that we should just ignore people being used, abused, manipulated and fleeced by greedy people laying claim to religious leadership? Because calling it out into the open is acting ignorant towards ignorance? Logical. And very Christ-like, I imagine.
I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, but it sure doesn’t seem right to ignore the plight of the marginalized and manipulated and sympathize with manipulators. I’m not saying that they’re evil; just that neither party should be treated as superior to the other. Too readily, people like you dismiss the largest sins of those in leadership and will hold the smallest of sins against a pedestrian layman, beating him over the head with it until he cowers in fear of himself (and then say it’s not our place to judge people, or that we should ‘take the high road’). Just because John Bevere says something in a book doesn’t make it the truth or a universal, Christianity defining law of life. The truth is rarely (if ever) as black and white as Mr. Bevere claims it to be (though, in this case, it’s really quite black and white).
[Comment ID #31116 Will Be Quoted Here]
Large sins, small sins? I thought sin was sin. Am I wrong? I don’t think that God looks at one sin and says, oh I can live with that. No one’s sin justifies me to sin. If you want to be bitter, be bitter, just don’t try to justify it. The good did not come out of their bitterness, I promise you. That is a bad evaluation of the situation. If that is the case then anyone can justify any sin. Don’t try and tell me that bitterness isn’t wrong. I am not saying for you not to confront issues or warn others about those issues, just don’t promote bitterness as the way to deal with it. Bitterness never wins out in the end. Forgiveness does! I wonder if Jesus is bitter towards sinners. I am sure He is not saying, “I died for those jokers and this is the thanks I get…losers!” From the cross He said “Father forgive them…” Jesus is not bitter, he warns and corrects, but He is not bitter, and as CHRISTians neither should we.
If this blog is for those who have turned completely away from the church and God, then I apologize, I am probably out of line. But if you still claim to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul and spirit, then we have a greater responsibility.
Jazz Hands,
We get it. Thanks.
Now please, move on.
-Justin
Sounds to me like there may be some more to this story… I’m not saying that they are wrong and you are right, however, I am not saying that you are right either. If you don’t mind my asking, why is it that you did not want to go through leadership training? I am a youth pastor, and EVERY one of our leaders needs to go through some sort of training. It’s according to the Word, and is important to show the character and integrity of the soon-to-be leader.
From reading further into this website and what it has to do with, I would probably guess that anyone here doing all the complaining really isn’t interesting in doing things according to the Word of God… which by the way states very strongly “Don’t touch the anointed of God”. I do not know Pastor Dimazio, or any of the Pastors of this particular Church, but I do know God, and don’t you all think that if there really is something wrong with what these people (or any other Pastors for that matter) are doing, that God is well and fully capable of dealing with and removing them Himself? I don’t believe that He needs your help, and the judgement being passed here on this website is incredibly disgusting. If what you are saying is true, and those offensive comments were really made… don’t you think that God knows how to handle His children? If you were to back off, and allow God to handle the situation, you would remain blameless.
However, “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?” Romans 2:1-3
Any pastor is in a position because GOD has placed them there. If they have done something wrong, and God has not removed them yet, then they are still under God’s anointing, and His Word says “Touch not mine anointed…” I have seen many people come under incredibly harsh judgement because of speaking against men and women of God (getting very sick, lives falling apart, etc…) All I am saying is if what you are saying is true, let God be God…
God bless.
Danielle,
I just want to address this part of your comment.
You know, I used to think this as well. When I first started this blog, I was genuinely scared that God would send down fire and brimstone. But uh, if anything God has blessed me immensely. In the three years since the inception of this blog, I have become incredibly happy and content in my life. My life is significanly better since I started the blog than before it.
You add the countless hours of entertainment, this blog has provided, and well, I can only say “God is good.”
Don’t you think that satan knows how to “bless” as well. Of course he will try to keep you happy, you’re doing all his work for him. It is not of the character of God to bless anything that is against His Word (which is very clearly what this blog is about). You’ve spoken against not just a pastor here, you’ve spoken against a House of God… Why would God bless you for coming against His house? God will ALWAYS bless according to His word.
I really believe there really is not much more to say.. Keep trying to take the place of God, and He will put you in your place eventually. This is not “entertainment” by the way, if anything, you’ve opened a very large portal to pass judgement and to lead others in that way. And well, as the Bible says, you may as well just tie a millstone around your neck and jump into the sea… you’d be much better off.
I didn’t. This is the first I’d heard of it. Good to know. But even if that’s true, I have a peace about my life and this blog. A peace that passeth all understanding, you might say. So I don’t think Satan responsible for my happiness.
I don’t consider Pastor Frank to be a man of God. And I don’t consider City Bible to be a House of God. So, I’m still cool there.
Hmmm… now you’re advocating for my death. I don’t think that’s a very Christ-like attitude to have.
Martin Luther said: Sin Boldly! Now if ol’ Martin distinguishes between sins – yer every day boring, no fun kinda sin and the fun, in your face and shocking kinda sin, who are you to disagree?
‘Scrupe
Dan-yell,
Here’s a homework assignment for you:
Read Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24 and Mathew 23:38, THEN come back and make your case for City Bible as the “house of God” …
(In my best Bugs voice) Whadda maroon …
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #31138 Will Be Quoted Here]
House of God… House of Worship… Church… or wood and stone. Ok, but either way, you are diverting greatly from the real issue here. As I said before… no matter what I say, I’m flogging an extremely dead horse here. You all are very good at this game you play and I am not going to be a part of this. So I’m out of here… so is the Lord.
Danielle,
You know you have to include ALL leaders as God’s anointed…right? It’s not just pastors. This would include, but not be limited to, leaders of groups such as Democrats, Nazis, KKK, and such…it’s making me laugh thinking of how I can include Democrats in a list like this and that is probably the most offensive name, to Christians, on the list.
My point is, you may want to rethink your stance on “Touch Not†otherwise, you might as well tie a millstone around your…
I understand where you are coming from danielle so let me briefly share an experience I had in downtown portland.
I was skating a few years back on the sidewalks on downtown listening to my ipod. I came across 7 or 8 well dressed men, women, and children holding up signs screaming at the top of their lungs — “You must repent now for all of your sins or you will burn in hell for all eternity!”
Now being so new to this whole christian thing, what do you think I did? I went up to them and told them how ineffective that approach was to a young, numb, apathetic, jaded society — especially one such as portland.
I then found myself being surrounded by 3 or 4 guys with open bibles telling me how I was wrong and look HERE, HERE, AND HERE. These people looked very angry with me and one guy looked like his eyes were about to pop out of his head.
Around this same time, A man in his sixties came up to me in a beaten up old suit and recited Roman 8:28 to me 3 times while holding me in his arms in front of all these people I was talking to.
They kind of just watched in silence and strangely, I began to cry and decided it was best to just leave the scene right there.
However, I will never forget this incident (yes, it really did happen to me)
I realized that even though these people were doing something that at the time, seemed destructive to the kingdom of christ, that they were actually helping me by showing me what NOT to do.
Who knows what could have happened to the people yelling and holding the signs when they saw old stranger come up and hug me while I started bursting into tears.
I don’t care though. Maybe nothing happened. The glory doesn’t belong to me anyways. Maybe some of them standing there that day were able to re-evalute their approach to their faith.
But maybe they just sat around and talked about how lost and confused I was. They point i’m trying to make here is — who cares.
Maybe they are still going strong doing the exact same thing.
All im sayin:
To all of you really educated “leaders” out there. Humble down. Listen to what people say about you.
Instead of being predictable and defensive why not try to understand?
I have tried for years to understand the ways of legalism and why in the world the old is still dominant everywhere when it doesn’t even need to be.
I still entertain any and all ways of thought. We should always be open to anything and everything. Jesus can’t move from our hearts, he has done a permenant work on them that we could never forget…
All of the “leaders” need to realize they are NO different than the most vile, high meth head downtown right now.
I Realize that a true leader must first become a follower of a very simple story of a man names Jesus Christ. Our leadership ENDED when his began.
He didn’t die just so Mel Gibson could capitalize…
Spending money on classes and training programs, in my opinion, can really throw us off track on the life of Christ.
I Realize that nobody needs to pay one red cent to pick up their own bible and copy the example of Jesus Christ. Thats bible college right there if I want it badly enough…
——————————————–
So the kicker is — if you are the head of a congregation, it would be very easy to get your own agenda met by saying something like this –
“Jesus wants us to move in this direction of drinking this strange looking fruit punch!”
and since the pastor is “annointed” — (sick of that stupid word) everyone drinks the punch.
We have to see how important it is to watch out for wolves in sheeps clothing..
I’m not pointing the finger — since I don’t have a spiritual x-ray to examine hearts, but without constructve critisism like this we could very well end up a bunch of clueless airheads who will fall for anything.
im not even going to spell check this time to go to work I hope you all understand where im coming from.
THE ONLY CONSTANT IS CHANGE. While one thing remains the same. God’s word.
change can also be positive contrary to popular belief…..
fight for it or fight against it?
Dan-yelled:
So you lead, He follows, eh?
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #31120 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thank you. This is exactly what I was talking about and proves my point quite effectively. Notice how, because you consider us less than you, you feel free and justified to come down on us, condemn us and judge us (despite not knowing ANY of us or really, ANYTHING about us)?
My question is this: If someone in the leadership of your church was extremely bitter, and it came out in all of his bitterness-laced tirades against some other object (say, another church, for example), would feel as free and justified to spew condemnation at him? Yeah, that’s what I thought.
[Comment ID #31143 Will Be Quoted Here]
Let’s not forget the leaders of this blog, RP!
They also are leaders, and as such, deserve some of the touch-notness (and tithes).
No…Neither Justin nor I will claim that we are God’s Annointed…actually, yes, yes we will take that. We may be more Court Jester than Pastor, but we still are placed here by God.
[Comment ID #31137 Will Be Quoted Here]
Are you just wanting to argue? What is your point?
[Comment ID #31146 Will Be Quoted Here]
How do you figure that I am spewing condemantion? That pastor would absolutely be in the wrong and not justified to be bitter. did you even read what I wrote, or did you read part of it and write your response. This blog, at least i think, is to help people, not promote bitterness against a church. If you are trying to lead someone the right way, the best you know how, then great, but if you are promoting bitterness, who are you helping?
Oh yeah? Well so am I…I’m sick of everybody spelling it ANNOINTED.
It’s ANOINTED. A-N-O-I-N-T-E-D for cryin out loud!
And that’s why it’s OK to touch the Lord’s annointed, CUZ THERE AIN’T ANY SUCH THING AS THE LORD’S ANNOINTED!!
-joe
hahaha… nice!
Mostly.
None.
So you got disco feet to go along with them jazz hands?
[Comment ID #31158 Will Be Quoted Here]
hahaha
this web site is stupid beyond comparison.
First off, as i am reading the posts there are NO SCRIPTURE, you guys have your own opinions and thoughts instead of using the word of God.
Second off, if unbeleivers come to this site they will look at you all as fools and that makes all Christians look stupid
mes,
Thank you for your kind, Christ-Like, and scripture filled comment. I truly hope that as our “unbelieving” visitors read your comment that they will be won over to Christ.
God Bless You,
Reformed Pope
For what i said you don’t need a scripture, its clear as DAY. I am not saying i will win over anyone to christ, but at least i wont turn those away who come on this site and see christians fighting, I am stating the truth when i say this that this web site is really stupid.
and are you claiming my comment is not christ like? Read Matthew chapter 23 then come talk and what about
Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
God is love and if Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the father, then this is the work of the father what jesus did in these verses. Now you tell me what is Christ Like? I just have to say it as it is, foolish to make this web site
In a million years I never would have guessed that this scripture would be used against us. That is classic.
mes, fwiw, you are a hypocrite.
if i am a hypocrite then prove me wrong now. using scripture, not your own head.
Like i said read matthew 23, but obviously you didn’t want to do it. You are the hypocrite.
There comes a time, when a believer has spent enough time in the scriptures and the application thereof, that the word of God has effectively worked its way into the believer – changed his/her ways – underpins their words and actions … the need to quote chapter and verse isn’t really necessary for the mature because their very being has been effected / changed by the word …
Personally, I think quoting chapter and verse is only to reassure the still wet-behind-the-ears baby believers …
Pray tell, Mes – concerning the record of all Jesus said in MMLJ and that of the apostles in the letters and epistles, just how often do you see them quote, verbatim, the book, chapter and verse of an OT scripture?
IF other than the reference to Jesus appearing in the synagogue in Nazareth and unrolling the scroll of Isaiah to what we now know is chapter 61, you can point out a single reference in the NT where anyone cited any scripture by book name, chapter and verse number, I’ll buy you a beer.
But if you can’t, then will you leave, quietly?
‘Scrupe
You don’t even understand my whole point, its not about quoting the scripture exact spot. I did not even say that did I? I just said you are not using them. I mean, even if you used them out of context, at least you use them. But as I can see you are not wise and your words show that you must be 20-30 years of age and the fact that you said
It is very clear that you are not humble in your thinking nor in your doctrine.
There is no point for me to stay here and bicker with you about what is right and wrong, because like the pharisees they were blind and deaf to hearing.
I am not even saying that you are wrong in the blog and what you think up there or whoever wrote it, im not saying that even CBC is right, the whole issue is that you are all fools for trying to make this web site thinking it is going to help anything.
And I WONT be coming back here ever again.
Good BYE!
Classic. And in record time, too.
Don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
‘Scrupe
You can attempt to act mature, but your manner of speech and grammar betray you, my friend.
Ah, but the entirety of your posts made it very clear that you are also quite deficient in this area of your life as well, kind sir.
Are you implying that we’re blind and deaf, or that you are?
Awww. Too bad, you had some potential. Though 20 bucks says that you’ll read this. You can’t give it up now, you’re too steamed.
E –
He’d really be steamed if he heard the song I wrote about him …
Didja ever notice just how presumptuous religious people are about others?
‘Scrupe
To be honest, I am very shocked at the post. I am an Asian immigrant and I have been in CBC for the last 9 years. A while back, I dated a Black man before and nobody had any problems with that in church. We split up for other reasons that have nothing to do with our ethnicities. We discovered that we werent ready for marriage or a relationship.
What about Asim Trent? Isn’t he partially Black? If CBC was against inter-racial relationships, he wouldnt be married to a blonde girl Lisa Trent that he is married to now. And both of them wouldnt be youth pastors.
I speak English fluently but still have an accent. I have brought friends who barely speak English and they have told me that they feel much more accepted in CBC than any where else. One of my African friends was surprised that people were patient with her thick accent and it was a relief to not be looked down on or made fun of because of an accent or not being able to speak English. She’s been in the country for only a year.
I am actually seeing more ‘minorities’ in CBC than other churches I’ve visited. If CBC was really that racist, most minorities and people of color would have left.
At the same time I’m not saying its impossible for that situation to happen. That grieves me. If that happened, I know 2 other leaders who would have not tolerated that and would have definitely said something. I am not a blind follower, I am just shocked. During the last 8 years, I have never experienced something like this. There has been cultural misunderstandings, which can happen but we can eventually come to an agreement.
I took Glenda Malmin’s social roles and relationships, I disagreed and told her that straight to her face.
Please, DO NOT categorize me as a blind, brainwashed follower who blindly follows leaders.
I still attend CBC even though I disagree with a few things about the Holy Spirit. In fact, I had a recent conversation with a leader about it. She didnt try to convince me to follow CBC’s way over mine. She told me that CBC leadership would have a different view. But if I’m seeking the Bible and if I am convinced of another view about the Holy Spirit, there is nothing wrong with it. Its a minor thing not something major.
This is just my honest opinion. I am just shocked and saddened to hear this. Based on my experience in CBC, I cant help but wonder if its fully true. I’m now curious to know who that leader was.
Being a minority, I have faced racism in the world. America in general is a racist country. It is easy for me to sense a racist vibe of ‘your not welcome here’….any minority can sense it right away. If CBC was really that racist, many minorities would not come to CBC. For me I would not want to be in a place like that and would have left right away. In the services, I have seen people of all backgrounds and ethnicities. I love it!
[Comment ID #31178 Will Be Quoted Here]
Hah yeah. I think we need to keep a tally of all the times we’re compared to Pharisees. I wonder though, how many of these people actually know anything about the Pharisees? It’s just one of those Christian insults that has become some end-all…
“It’s ok if you think you know what you’re talking about and have me cornered, I’ll just compare you to the Pharisees!”
Suckerrrr.
It is absolutely 100% true, and much before your time.
To give you back story: in the early 90s, (1992-1993) a group of people at BT (now CBC) got together and started a NE Portland, inner-city outreach program called Urban Progress. The goal was to reach out to minority kids through sports and share with them the message of Christ. This was long before Alberta was gentrified and became a hang out for white yuppies. Well UP as we called it was highly succesful and started bringing many young African-American teenagers to the bubles on a weekly basis. The leadership freaked out (an no I am not going to say names because half of them have left to go start their own churches somewhere else and as I’ve learned naming on this thing is not a good idea). Why? Well the biggest concern was the black males started dating the white females – we called BT princesses. These were the good girls who had grown up in BT there whole lives and their parents expected them to marry one of the BT boys. When they started eyeing the dark skinned males instead people who didn’t think there were racist all of the sudden became such.
You see racism at BT and in Oregon in general is very subtle. It’s not like the south were people just call you a racial slur or refuse to be around you. In Oregon/Washington people like to pretend they are open-minded and accepting of all races…however once people of another race (usually black) start moving in on their turf, the racism bubbles to the surface.
I am sure BT/CBC has changed over the last 10-15 years, but the rasicm there was very real. No one can or should deny that.
You shouldn’t have to make a request of a pastor who you barely know if they will approve of who you want to marry. Now if he/she is a family member or close friend then yes their opion matters. But some distant leader who you have no real relationship with…why seek their approval?
First off, PBC is not leadership training. It’s a shame education and a way to put even greater mind control over people (and make the church more money). And I did get leadership training, just not from them. Secondly, if you don’t like what’s being said on here….don’t waste your time loging on to read it.
Again, DON’T READ IT THEN. Never ceases to amaze me how many people hate this blog, but read it everyday. I ignore things I don’t like.
Agreed, just don’t put too much weight into it. We seek to please God, not man.
I have never been to CBC…but if they have changed, why not give them the benefit of the doubt. I’m just sayin’…John Newton was not the greatest guy before God touched him and he wrote Amazing Grace.
Just a thought.
[Comment ID #31225 Will Be Quoted Here]
This from someone I assume has never had racism directed their way? Just wondering.
John Newton was also UNSAVED until God touched him and he realized the Lord’s amazing grace.
If you’re using that comparison, were the CBC leadership unsaved at the time they treated mixed-race couples unjustly?
NOTE: not that I’m saying that there isn’t room for any believer to change and grow, but the believer…specifically those to whom leadership positions have been given…. is held to a higher standard. To whom much is given, much is required.
Still, praise the Lord if CBC has changed in this regard. I just don’t think your comparison is entirely accurate.
[Comment ID #31217 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well…I will agree with you on that. I have experienced racism in my public school I attended and when I complained I was accused of playing the race card. I will totally agree with u on that. And if u read the history of Oregon, it was a very racist state.
Church people are also sinners who have their carnality. If those people and leaders sincerely repented, I’ll also forgive them. As Christians we all have serious flaws. If I saw something like what u described happen today, I will stand up for that person. If that happened to someone I know. I would go with that person to another leader and keep trying. I would not let this go. And those 2 leaders I mentioned would absolutely NOT tolerate it. It would grieve them. I know them well enough.
I attended PBC and a person made a joke that was off color. I confronted the person but the person didnt take it well. Then, I went to Glenda Malmin who pulled her into her office. That girl sincerely apologised to me. She had no idea how racist her joke was. She was sheltered and came from a very small town. Thats the only racism I’ve experienced. And yes, it took me a year to forgive her.
I quit PBC after a year because it wasnt my calling. It had nothing to do with racism or anything else. I only planned to go to PBC for a year.
Racism or ethnocentricity happens even in ethnic churches. I went to an Asian church and the pastor tried to make a joke but it was a racist joke towards Whites. People were offended and later the pastor was confronted.
Yes, racism is real and hurtful and sometimes people have no idea. As a minority who first hand experience I know how painful it can be. I had been called names, slurs, experienced sexual harassment (in my public school) and when I was walking downtown with a white male friend. Another man approached us, thinking I was a prostitute, simply because i was with a white guy covered in tattoos. Both of us were shocked. My friend was upset and yelled at him. He ran off because we told him we’d call the police. People told me to go back home and stop stealing American jobs and had graffiti. Well…get the picture?
I dont know about others experiences but when I came to CBC, it felt refreshing to feel accepted and not experience any of what I experienced elsewhere. And actually I feel more comfortable bringing my Asian friends who arent very fluent in English to CBC than other churches I’ve visited.
But if CBC repented and changed, wouldnt God forgive them. If God forgives them, shouldnt I also forgive? And now, CBC is very diverse and is very far from a church of “white, old men” Its nothing close to that.
I dont know if any of u still attend CBC. From what I hear, I believe CBC has changed. God can change people. Apostle Paul persecuted Christians but yet God used him. I really pray churches will repent of this and allow God to use them. I pray there will be healing from the effects of racism.
[Comment ID #31227 Will Be Quoted Here]
Actually since I was very young, I just don’t cry about it. Take it as a life lesson that some people live in ignorance. My dad taught me that. He had it a lot worse than I did.
[Comment ID #31228 Will Be Quoted Here]
By your definition, would you consider CBC saved? If so, then there is definite division in the House of God. If they were blind and now they see, wouldn’t that be a good comparison. Maybe they didn’t know any better back in the 90′s and God has shown them the light of His grace.
[Comment ID #31234 Will Be Quoted Here]
No, I don’t believe the folks at CBC are unsaved. A saved person… including leadership and especially leadership because they have the capacity to influence multiple others…is more accountable to walk justly and uprightly than an UNSAVED person (like slave trader Newton, or a prostitute, or a murderer). The unsaved person CANNOT walk in righteousness. The SAVED person is righteous through the blood of Christ and has the ability through the Holy Spirit to grow into maturity (more like Jesus).
Christians aren’t perfect and we have a lot of maturing to do as we walk with the Lord. We sin and stumble along the way sometimes. Sins, while forgiven, do have consequences, however. If repentence and restoration does not take place, sin leads to broken relationships, broken churches, and broken people in those churches.
Ex-cityBible-slave and others are bringing up valid issues that should be addressed. If the leadership at CBC has repented, it would be nice if they’d publicly recant their previous erroneous actions as some other MFI pastors like Rick Snow have done.
The onus isn’t just on the person wronged to forgive (although forgiveness is a must)…the wrong-doer should also seek forgiveness from the Lord and those they have wronged.
That is where real healing in the body of Christ can begin. I hear lots of talk in different threads from folks about how all the “bitter critics” should forgive those who have wronged them, but very little about leadership publicly repenting and asking for forgiveness.
But I digress….back into lurk-mode.
Jazz Hands,
Knock it off, or I’m going to have to ban you from commenting on the blog. You’re turning into a troll, and I’m getting tired of it.
[Comment ID #31243 Will Be Quoted Here]
That would be fine
. no hard feelings
Really?
Have you seen their “Pastoral Team”?
http://www.citybiblechurch.org/p/8884/Default.aspx
Not exactly the Rainbow Coalition. And, you’ll notice, not a single African American to be found.
[Comment ID #31246 Will Be Quoted Here]
Thank you Cat. I can’t believe all these people defending CBC’s actions, it unbelievable! Guess that goes to show that ignorance is bliss.
Note to everyone: just because you were an international student, someone of Asian decent, or had a friend with brown skin and did not see an overt racist acts occuring doesn’t mean that people in the church are not racist. This is more about a black and white issue then an all colors issue. No one can deny that African-Americans have had to deal with the most racism ever in our countries history. No other people group was forced into slavery for hundreds of years and treated like they were less then human. Blacks couldn’t even vote in this country until 1967. That was only 40 years ago. I know it’s hard for someone to comprehend real racism when you’ve never personally experienced it, but trust me, to be disliked because of the color of your skin…its just inhumane and no one should defend that.
Hi Ex!
Ex-City Bible slave said:
“You shouldn’t have to make a request of a pastor who you barely know if they will approve of who you want to marry. Now if he/she is a family member or close friend then yes their opinion matters. But some distant leader who you have no real relationship with…why seek their approval?”
NO, I do not seek their approval, I actually didn’t tell them that I was dating, until they heard from others and called me to pastoral office.
Not sure, what was the reason? Then, I made it clear that I will not follow and nor I seek any approval.
Indy!
Ahh I see. Yeah don’t you just love that “called into the pastoral office” stuff. What a joke that is. Just another way to control people’s lives. Anyway, good for you. Nice to see someone going there who still has some independence left.
All the best.
[Comment ID #31246 Will Be Quoted Here]
Theres Ranjy and Shine Thomas who are Indians and extremely active. Ben and Miriam Trolese.
Are u implying that anybody who is not African American is classified as a ‘white’? Not to get defensive. I am not defending or excusing anyones racist behavior. But I find that above comment slightly off color (no pun intended). Recently, I had a non Christian African American man tell me that the only reason why I am NOT discriminated against was because since I’m Asian I could pass for White. (Excuse me, what is that supposed to mean?) I found that comment extremely offensive. I didnt understand what he meant by that.
I do not want to get into a conversation of which ethnicity has it worse with racism. Racism should definitely have no place in our churches.
Nope. I’m just saying that CBC is still primarily run by older white men.
Ex-cbc Slave mentioned that it’s easier for minorities to get involved in “youth ministry” but not much else. And I think you still see that being played out there.
I will say I think CBC leadership has bigger issues with African-Americans, than other ethnicities, but I don’t really have any evidence to prove that. It’s just a gut feeling.
I do wonder how many African Americans serve on leadership roles in MFI churches? And I wonder how that compares with other ethnicities?
Me too. Anyone have any data on this?
Lady Almond,
Ex-City Bible Slave and Cat have done well defending a nigga like me, but let me chime in for a minute. I took my wife to NYC for our 10 year wedding anniversary. We shopped in SOHO, we saw the Color Purple in Manhattan’s Theatre District, we paid for carriage rides through lower Manhattan, we were literally blown away at the glory of New York. But let me tell what was more amazing then all this aformentioned stuff, it’s when we visited Ground Zero. That tour blew me away. I mean I was moved by all the memories. Ya know, the planes crashing into those towers, people jumping to their deaths, the buildings imploding, people running franctically for cover, I was literally moved to tears.
Now here is why my eyes welled up, I forgot! I literally forgot! I live 3,000 miles away on the west coast and Ground Zero had become a distant memory. I no longer felt what these New Yorkers felt. How could I? I was too far removed from it. I could no longer relate to their pain, their reality, their struggle, but from a distance.
Well, this is how racism works particularly when you live in a predominately homogenous Christian culture. You say “where is there racism, I don’t see it!” Of course you don’t see it because if your not living in close proximity to minorities how could you? If your not interacting with the marginalized, the disenfranchised, those that are limited due to discrimination, if these people do not play a prominent role in your local church, then how can you truly gauge if your church is not racist? That’s the trap, you assume since you are not privy to personal racism in a predominately white church then it must not exist. I thought that way, so i get it. But look at CBC’s leadership, do I think these people are personally racist, well yes and no, but most importantly look again at this leadership structure from the bottom up, there sure is alot of SYSTEMIC racism going on here, I would know, I was the former Black Obama of Bible Temple.
Let’s see, all the Elders (white), the SR Pastor (white), Associate Pastors (all-white), and then you work your way down to the other people in lesser leadership position mostly white or socialized white. So tell me why there is not one black in “real” leadership? CBC is in NE Portland which is according to Willamette Weekly the most diverse area in Portland, tell me, how come CBC leadership team doesn’t reflect this Lady Almond?
personal racism
Racism has overt and covert forms … having been raised in the Puget Sound area (from 1955) and holding a professional office job at a large aerospace company there, I could count on one hand the number of blacks I ever met (read: went to school or church with, or worked with) … my life – the area and times – was just insular in terms of cultural / ethnic mixture … the landscape was simply white … so how does a person know whether or not he’s racist / prejudiced unless he is exposed to people of color?
In the late 90′s, my company sent me to Alabama to work on a space project. Before that, I’d never been in the south – heck, never been south of the bay area … grocery shopping one evening, I turned the cart down the aisle and coming from the other direction, an elderly black woman. As I passed her, she pushed her cart hard up against her side of the aisle and looked away from me. I was startled by her action – hell, it pained me – I said “good evening, ma’am” and she replied in kind. The next day at work, I told one of the local co-workers about it and his reply shocked me even more – something to the effect of “she’d better (do/say what she did)” … the experience set me to praying for the duration of my time there …
I’ve since moved to the rural midwest – which is about like the Puget Sound area (Auburn and Kent) were in the 1960′s, in terms of integration … look at the demographics where I live now and the area is 95% Caucasian … migrant workers, predominantly hispanics, live in their own town here – so we’re not without people of color, rather, we’re just segregated … so with little interaction between races, there would appear to be no racism …
Strangely, the town I lived in before, is somewhat famous for involvement in the underground railroad via the efforts / home of Owen Lovejoy. The townsfolk take great pride in that history – yet the town itself is about 96% Caucasian. When my Peurto Rican dentist went to enroll his son in Catholic school, the priest told him to enroll his son in the Catholic school in a small town to the east, where the “other Mexican kids go” … now you’d think the locals claim to history would mean they’re sensitive to racial equality and embrace people of color as equals. Not necessarily so – folks I met could tell you where the town’s first black citizens were buried in the cemetery, or that there is a “black family living on the corner off main street”, but not a single thing about them – name – where they worked or went to church – yet they know all sorts of factoids/gossip about their white neighbors.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the rural midwest, here at least, is covertly prejudiced / racist and I could say the same thing about the Puget Sound area when / where I grew up. In the south (Alabama), what I saw was overtly racist.
Sounds to me like CBC falls in to the overtly racist / segregationist category, with occasional forays into the covert column when the overt kind isn’t sufficient to keep things under control.
‘Scrupe
Should have written:
Sounds to me like CBC falls in to the covertly racist / segregationist category, with occasional forays into the overt column when the covert kind isn’t sufficient to keep things under control.
For that, I give myself an
I remember years ago, there was a black pastor preached at CBC, he said that “Racial reconciliation does not mean blacks hanging out and having BBQ together with whites… it should go beyond artificial social activities.” and then he challenged SPFD “will you allow your daughter to marry my black son?” that will be the barometer of your racial attitude.
I was touched by that sermon. It will be much easier to act as if we are not racist when the issue of “RACISM” does not AFFECT our lives personally and directly.
Indy!
AMEN!
To Negrodamus – “Of course you don’t see it because if your not living in close proximity to minorities how could you?”
Responding to that comment – How do u know that? FYI, I am an Asian immigrant. I live in an area where my next door neighbors are minorities.. My closest neighbors are an Indian couple, two other Indian families, a Syrian couple and a White family I’ve gone to their houses for dinners and chatted with them all the time. Even though I attend that church, I dont live in church or shelter myself in a “white” church world. CBC is NOT my life.
I student teach in a public school in N Portland which is very diverse and considered “inner city”. I get looks and comments like “wow, you teach there” from people when I tell them what I do. I get tired of hearing that… My students are African American, Asian, a few Russian and White. Some of these kids are considered at-risk and two of my students had a history of gang involvement and been arrested. I would love to be a HS guidance counselor at an inner city school.
In the past I volunteered tutoring ESL and job skills in a jail for 3 years. So yes, I’ve worked with minorities and am one myself.
Did u assume that I was some sheltered, ignorant, naive CBC princess? I dont mind if u or anybody disagrees with me and respect views that disagree but lets not make assumptions especially when u dont know me.
To Ex Slave,
I feel bad that u experienced that. That should not belong in a church. One thing that bugs me is when CBC talks about not conforming to the world in superficial ways such as listening to secular music but doesnt addresses refusing to conform in ways such as acceptance, love and having no favoritism. This angers me. But I dont want to make a rash decision. Call me idealistic and naive but what if I stay in CBC and set an example and try to break that. At least I tried. Maybe God may use me to change some things, or in a few years I walk out of that church frustrated.
And yes superficial attempts of multiculturalism in my public school drives me nuts. To some people multiculturalism is having murals of kids of all skin colors smiling & holding hands. But whoa and behold it becomes ‘controversial’ and taboo when I want to discuss racism with my students in class or read certain literatures.
Now, I’m wondering whether I had it easier because I’m an Asian girl. It didnt occur to me till now. Actually for sometime I’ve wondered whether minority girls/women have it easier than minority men. That could be part of the reason.
Oops I meant the last part was for Negrodamus not ex slave. My bad!
I am not sure how to answer that. I also wondered why the top hierarchy was mostly White but wanted to discuss one at a time. Maybe there is a systematic racism just like systematic racism throughout American history and society. But I dont want to rush into an opinion yet. I am offended but would like to think it through especially since this is an online chatboard. I tend to be very skeptical about everything. Heck, not too long ago I even questioned the Holy spirit and whether Jesus was real. So I hope u understand why I ask everything. Its not that I dont believe u or in complete denial or defending anyone becuz I’m micromanaged etc… I am asking because I am genuinely concerned.
And when u say, ” I would know, I was the former Black Obama of Bible Temple.”
If u dont mind sharing, could u be more specific? How long were u there? Were u in leadership roles? How did they treat u? What racist things happened? And when it did, did u confront them and how did they respond? I’m really curious now.
Or if u are not comfortable posting the details here, feel free to email me. I dont intend to get into an argument with u. I’m just concerned. Heres my email warrior_princess678910@yahoo.com.
Lady Almond,
Let me re-phrase it this way: If your private world and your church world are “world’s” apart and I mean if those two circles are not in close proximity to each other, how can you be for sure that one circle has no problem with the other? If those two circles are not enmeshed, how would you know racism doesn’t exist in one of the circles?
When I was a college student-athlete at Oregon State University, all the non-athlete Black students would whine about the racism at the university. I would be like “what? Are you serious??? What racism???” in protest. Here I was, a black athlete, defending OSU’s honor! To my shame this was my “Alan Keyes” moment. I assumed that the university wasn’t racist because I hadn’t experienced it personally. Now I should have known better than that but my stupidity wouldn’t allow me to see it. I reasoned since I hadn’t experienced it being a semi-famous big-time college basketball star in a small white rural town then it must not exist. But later I realized that they treated black athletes WAY different than they treated the average black students.
Now on to CBC. Your church at one time loved me. I was black but not “Mandingo Black”, they would have had none of that with the exception of a few Ugandan’s that attended PBC. I was well-spoken, I toned down my “blackness” to fit in, hell, they even had me voting for Ronald Reagan, go figure. But at some point if you want to move up the church leadership ladder you have “jump in to fit in” which essentially means don’t challenge their whiteness and you’ll be assured to move up the rung. I couldn’t and I wouldn’t do that, so my days were obviously numbered.
Don’t get me wrong, CBC has always wanted a MULTI-ETHNIC church, even when I was there they always push for it behind the scenes, but what they don’t want is a MULTI-CULTURAL church. They wanted many ethnic groups who were willing to conform to one culture (white culture). That’s why their is no diversity in leadership at CBC because “real” black guys, not white-washed black guys refuse to pass the acculturation test. If you really wanted a multi-ethnic church than the culture comes with it. And when the culture gets thrown in, good Lord, watch out because everything changes from worship, responsiveness to the preaching, ministry programs and so on…
If you blind folded me and took me to CBC and had me listen to SPFD speak and listen to the worship, the orchestra, the announcements and then later had me interact after the service with the people do you really think I would walk away thinking that CBC is a multi-ethnic & multi-cultural church? NO, if you honest.
Anyway, you are right lady Almond I assumed wrong and I apologize, sounds like you are doing great things keep it up. My only prayer for you is that your church and work experience wouldn’t have to be so polar-opposite.
Negrodamus,
I didnt mean that racism does not happen in CBC. Maybe my words were a bit confusing. All I said was that I was surprised at the extent it was described. I think racism is possible, but its not much different than the world, other churches. Based on my experiences alone, I think CBC is not worse or better in those terms. Maybe there are something I’ll never know but why should my church define me. Thats why churches need people like us. I dont back down easily. I think churches are like the world. I dont know how else to answer your question or if u are looking for a particular answer from me.
In order to be a leader or God anointed, I dont believe its necessary to be in church leadership. I have no desire to be a pastor.
I have been to other churches that are far worse than CBC. Its straight to your face racism. People stare and ignore you. I have judged as an idiot simply because i have a slight accent (at other churches). Also, my ethnic church was even worse. I was judged for not being Asian enough and pushed away from leadership. So u see, racism can occur even in ethnic churches. Keep in mind that not all churches will be 100% acceptable to us.
I’ll admit that our church tends to be Eurocentric. But sometimes it could be naive racism. Heres’ why. If u asked Whites to talk about their culture and describe it, the average reaction would be a “huh?” “What kind of a question is this?” There is a White/Caucasian- American culture. Theres nothing wrong with the White culture. When I converted to Christ, my Asian church judged and wouldnt disciple me for becuz i was not christian enough. It was CBC who discipled me and helped me grow as a new christian. Even though CBC has issues, I’ll never forget that.
But if u are a majority as opposed to minority, you wont be aware of it. That can happen in any country. Some people may not get it. Most people cannot tell the difference between cultural or traditional ideas and Biblical truth. I hate it when cultural norms are being preached as truth. I felt Glenda Malmin’s Social Roles and Relationships were more based on culture rather than the biblical ways.
That is true anywhere in the world. But it takes humility to address these issues. Racism is a tough subject to approach. In my university, when i took multicultural ed classes, there were so many heated debates.
I think churches need to be more open and direct about this. People will definitely get offended but should we worry about offending people or God, who does not tolerate this sin.
Lady Almond said:
Good for you. Glad to see you haven’t been treated poorly long enough to give up. Keep fighting the fight and trying to change 30 years of corrupt thinking and belief systems built on lies. I am sure your stand and example on these issues will make those old WASP leaders at CBC change. Well…maybe…on second thought…come talk to us in a few years…
More great insight:
Ahhhh, now you’re understanding. Those old white CBC leadership guys aren’t too worried about you coming along and snatching up their daughters. If their sons want to marry you, I am sure they will find a way to get you to conform.
Lady Almond, this is why CBC loves you because to them you are not “too” Asian. That’s why they love Doug Lasit, he is not “too” Hawaiian and Asim Trent is not “too” ethnic. They are all “Pop-Ethnic”, sort of like “Pop-Music”, you know kinda how pop-music is nothing more than watered down R&B. All the ethnic people you mentioned in leadership at CBC are “watered-down ethnics” or “Ethnic-Lite” which is more appealing to their white congregants.
Doug Lasit wasn’t allowed to date Donna initially (and for quite some time) BECAUSE HE WAS NOT WHITE. Well, and because he was not a virgin. Racism? Absolutely. Not to mention, so much for believing in the power of forgiveness and Christ making people “new creations.” I don’t remember what made Bob Wagar change his mind, but clearly, Doug got past that barrier. I can only imagine the mental machinations Doug had to do to get along with his father-in-law and convince himself that he miraculously changed his mind about accepting his color and his past. E
Ex-slave and Negrodamus are right, though, about CBC accepting people who don’t have white skin if they’re willing to conform to the “white culture.”
SICK AND WRONG, people. I know I’m preaching to the choir, but seriously.
I’ve experienced racism, too, and I’m white. It wasn’t in a local church setting, but rather in the streets. Back in the 60’s when I lived up in Seattle during grade school days (Lowell Elementary) on Capitol Hill, my neighborhood was probably 50% black. You could sometimes see the Panthers driving around town…one time we saw Eldridge Cleaver and Bobby Seale at a red light. I used to take the bus downtown to go to the YMCA, and I would get beaten up by the black kids just because I was white, called me “honky,†stole my money, once even at knifepoint, and so on. It took me a few years to get over a mistrust/fear of black dudes after that, but I did, mostly through being in sports with them in high school, in addition to becoming born again.
And it still takes place today. Here in NorCal, the Hispanics are the majority, especially at work. Many times I’ve heard Mexicans, not aware I speak Spanish, mutter pinche gringo (“effing white boyâ€) as I walk past, and you can see the hate in their eyes.
Similarly, one of our nieces — who is white — made an interesting statement to us the other day. We were at a family gathering, and she said, “I’m proud that I’m the first one in the family to marry a Mexican.” Whatever that’s supposed to mean….
So, people of “color†have no market on experiencing racism
Good observation, ND.
I think that, if true, and it probably is, the same thing goes for most LCs and people, too — I know it is for me, anyway. Why? Well, I suppose it’s just easier subconsciously for me to relate to a person when they don’t present a challenge to me — which my inner self regards as a bit of a danger or threat — in regard to my own personal socio-cultural boundaries.
I have been thinking about this a lot lately — these subconscious attitudes which have been formed in us over time, and exactly where they come from…which is our past, of course.
I was reminded just how powerful our own individual pasts are the other day as I was on my daily ride. Here in Sacramento, we were supposed to have winds up to 50 mph, which, needless to say, would make it extremely difficult — if not impossible — to stay on a bike. But I went out anyway.
After only about 10 miles, the winds and gusts were getting increasingly stronger, and I realized: this isn’t going to work. And so, I decided to turn around and try to make my way back to my truck before I was literally blown off the MUP I was on, and into the nearby stream! But after I turned around and downshifted into the lowest possible gear, I was heading directly into the wind, could barely make any progress, and was only able to make it a couple of hundred feet. The gales then forced me to turn off and take a detour into an adjacent neighborhood…which as soon as I did, was like going back in time to something out of the 60s.
It was so weird. As I rode along looking at the houses and cars, I seemed to sense going back to my youth, and began to experience a strange nostalgia, kind of a yearning for that time when I was still a kid.
(Now, my childhood wasn’t the greatest, partially because we were poor, and my dad was always sick— he died when I was 13 — and we were forced to move around from city to city as he looked for work. Which, in turn, meant I was always the new kid in school…the outsider, ostracized. Not too many fond memories.)
Anyway, as I continued peddling through the neighborhood — maybe it was simply because the houses provided a welcome wind-block — I found myself not wanting to leave. I was somehow reminded of my junior high years when we had moved across the river from Portland to Vancouver.
(Which time in my life wasn’t too hot either. I still can recall getting ganged up on a few times at the Marshall Rec. Center on McLoughlin (?) by some local thugs from school —Shumway — most of which stopped when I got my height, 6’-4â€, and began studying martial arts. Yeah, I know what you’re thinking… This guy sure got beat up a lot… )
I must have spent half an hour there, just cruising up and down the streets, past the rows of yards and cars and houses, and letting all those feelings, feelings which I had not experienced for decades, just wash over me. It just felt somehow right being there at that moment.
Once I finally got back to my truck, as I was driving home, all those sensations from the past — a strange mixture of pain, and yet longing — welled up inside me and I began to cry, and poured my heart out to the Lord. I think He wanted me to experience a purging of sorts from what I went through in my past. I also think it was the Lord blowing that wind in my face, and it was Him who made me turn off at that precise point.
That whole episode has made me think about how we as individuals are such a product of our past, of how we were raised, and of what we went through growing up — even it seems to me, in regard to racism or prejudice, or even perceived racism or prejudice. Made me realize how the attitudes we have towards everyone else have been so programmed.
Because if “my†group admits me, I don’t necessarily perceive their not admitting others into our group as “prejudice,” irrespective of what race they are. That’s just the way it is, which attitude is probably due to pure selfishness on my part. My carnal self merely views it as an acceptance of me and my values. It’s just not natural for me to sympathize with those not “in†with my crowd, and to recognize or empathize what’s going on toward them.
But, I believe God wants us to shed ourselves of that insensitivity.
I’m firmly convinced God hates racism in all it forms, which is really nothing more than personal arrogance and pride — which Proverbs 16:5 says is “an abomination to the Lord.â€
There’s many different kinds of pride: pride of race, pride of place (where I live), pride of face (my looks), pride of grace (my church, or experience in God), pride of… you-name-it.
And if the Church is going to successfully manifest the Love of Jesus to the world, she is going to have to be cleansed of all past attitudes and patterns of bias, prejudice, and racism if she ever expects to see the fulfillment of Rev. 7:9-14.
-joebib
Wow, joebib, some really good thoughts. This conversation has had me asking the Lord to examine me also. Thank you!
[Comment ID #31294 Will Be Quoted Here]
Now you see…this is why the blog exists. Not only is this shedding light on the unjust actions American church leaders are committing in God’s great name, but it is also causing people who read this thing to examine their own hearts and figure out where they stand before Him. If just one lost soul can read through these posts and be convicted by their similar behavior, our job is done.
Please don’t label me as a “white” “asian” etc…I am just ME! I am a unique individual. Here’s the reason why my Asian church doesnt view me as Asian enough. Its because I dated non-Asian. Thats the only thing that put me in the category of not being asian enough. So u see, racism can exist even within minorities.
I often feel ‘stuck’ in between two worlds. I dont fit in anywhere and always an outsider.
joebib, excellent thoughts. It takes humility… Ethnocentricity is a form of pride. Pride goes against our natural human nature. But God has all of us to a higher calling of humility – i havent got it all the way but God is working on all of us. Someday, his grace will cover all of that.
Lady Almond said:
I thimk you labelded yerse’f, Lady Almond, or am I mistooken to thimk ‘Almond’ refers to yer skin color?
Maybe my bud Negrodamus will change his name to Black Walnut to keep you company. I’m changing’ mine to Snow Ball.
‘Scrupe
(PS, I’m just funnin’ ya)
hahahaha… unscrupulous. Actually almond could. lol I just chose that name cuz i like almonds with chocolate. Hey, i cant help being a woman and having a love for chocolates.
Or mine could be Chai latte, Rice Girl, Mocha… (which would be more accurate)
Take it easy, guys.
Joebib said:
True, we just so happen to have “most” of the market. Joebib, you had some good things to say and I respect your experience but please don’t equate your experience with a black persons experience when it comes to racism. Because at the end of the day I am black man in a white world and there is certain privileges you have that blacks, hispanics and even Asians don’t have. I have a friend who happens to be white and we were discussing racism and he shared a story about how he went into this banking meeting with old aristocratic white men and felt their disdain once he walked into the room do to his attire. I laughed. Man, I laughed motherf*&#*n” head off! I said to him “are you kidding me???? Dude, if you changed your attire you are IN-PERIOD!” But had I had the right attire there is still one thing I can’t change, MY SKIN! He can change his stripes but not me. In fact, there is no issue with his stripes, just mine. So in all humbleness Joebib and in all due respect, don’t insult me with the white man’s burden. The white man’s suffering and the black man’s suffering is too disporportional to compare. I am sorry that you experienced racism at the hands of blacks and Latinos, but our racism is a racism without power. Our racism is not systemic because we barely control anything in this country. Why do you think so many minorities hate white people, because white people have all the power. In fact, where do you think black peoples hate stems from? Dude, whites took us from our land, killed 20 million in the Middle Passage from Africa to America, sold and treated us like property, separated us from our family, beat, maimed and lynched us for 300 years and yet you want to compare burdens? There are more black men in prison than there are in college, 71% of black families are headed by a single parent, 25% of us live below the poverty line, in fact, most of us when we apply for a job have to change our grammar, our syntax, even our cadence to get a damn job so consider this when your comparing racial notes.
Negrodamus is talking about the institutionalized racism. That kind of racism has its effects even today. For example I am shocked to find out that in some African, Asian countries they sell products to whiten skin color. In these places fairer skin is equated to beautiful skin. It is pretty bad in India.
The institutionalized racism is there but many people of all ethncities are not sure what to do about it today. Awareness is one thing but the question is – What now? Its not that people dont care about this or necessarily lack of awareness but some are not sure what to do now. Racism is such a huge social evil and sometimes individuals feel powerless. I like to take the bull by its horns but what if I get gored?
Have any of u read Pumla Gobado-Madikizela’s †A human being that died last night†Its about the apartheid in South Africa. I was stunned to hear her tak about forgivness even though she is a Black South African who experienced the pain of apartheid.
or “Heart of Darkness†by Sven (cant remember his name but its a swedish writer) that discusses racist mentalities of colonization.
There’s also an African writer who wrote about the psychological after effects of colonization. but i cant remember his name.
I hope I dont sound too patronizing but I just thought I’d mention these books because we’re on the topic. These books are very thought provoking.
I have to second what my boy Negro D is saying. Please everybody, don’t ever, ever, ever compare your experiences of prejudice with that of black folks. I have very light skin and grew up with a white mom and I did experience a lot of prejudice in the late 80s as a young kid in all white neighborhoods going to all white schools, but even I can’t truly appreciate what a person of dark color has had to experience in this country over the last 50 years. My dad (who is pretty dark) was born in Houston Texas in 1939. He has told me some of the most awful, atrocious, and mind-boggling stories about the way he was treated under Jim Crow laws that none of us here could ever even imagine. So getting picked on by some neighborhood bullies or having some Mexicans call you a “gringo” has absolutely no relative comparison to being strung up from a tree because you drove your car through the wrong neighborhood (which happened to one of his friends). I know you mean well Joebib, but come on dog. Do you really think you know what it’s like to experience true racism?
And Lady Almond, I know you mean well too, but come on girl. Just because you have a darker shade of white, dated a black man, and spent some time with kids in the hood does not mean you can 100% relate to all this. You have no idea what a black man has to experience on a day to day basis, yes even now in 2008.
To everyone who reads this: we still live in a very racist country with a whole lot of hateful people. Remember that you and I both get to live in fairly decent neighborhoods and relax every evening in front of the TV on the safe side of the tracks. But there are millions who don’t and Christ’s heart breaks for them everyday. If you really want to make a difference don’t accept ignorance, don’t try to relate to true racism (thus marganalizing its existence), and don’t make bedfellows with anyone who does (including your church). If you really want to make a difference and become apart of the solution, admit that you have lived a privileged life and be willing to sacrifice some of your comforts in order to reach out to those who never thought someone like you would. Start by looking at your cell phone contacts list. Is everyone in there the same type of person? Have you taken any time to try and make friends with people who not only don’t look like you, but don’t act like you either? Have you ever hung out with someone who is the polar opposite of yourself? Have you ever spent your hard-earned dollars on someone who’s outside your comfort zone, not because you had to but because you wanted to? These are all questions my wife any I have asked ourselves and can answer in the positive. You see if you want diversity in your life you have to move beyond talking and start acting.
“And Lady Almond, I know you mean well too, but come on girl. Just because you have a darker shade of white, dated a black man, and spent some time with kids in the hood does not mean you can 100% relate to all this. You have no idea what a black man has to experience on a day to day basis, yes even now in 2008. ”
Very true! Its like this, since I’m female the male mind will always baffle me. I can try to understand, appreciate the way men are created, male nature and try to relate in some ways but there are somethings about men that i just dont get (unless maybe if i get a sex change) I’m just playing
Of course I wont be able to relate 100% since I’m not Black. I cannot be something that I am not. I can remember similar experiences and try to relate, understand, be compassionate and be respectful of all peoples and try to be more educated about these issues. But for somethings, i can only imagine.
And when some here are discussing similar experiences I’m sure its out of trying to relate and emphatize rather than discredit your experience.
To your last paragraph, VERY TRUE and thats what we all need to do rather than just talking.
I think this is the best discussion ever!
BTW: I am Asian and to be married to a Black man. My fiancee and I often discusses about Racism and White priviledge. You know, I started to notice that wherever we went some white folks would stare at us, some with the looks of
“Ahhh, they are cute couple” but some with that kind of prejudice look.
The challenge for me to be inter-racial relationship, ooooohhhh how I hate it when people stare with prejudice look (eventho’ not all at me but at my fiancee).
Just a question, have you ever notice that people would not ask further questions if somebody date white man, but people will start asking detail questions when somebody date black man, such as “what kind of job he has?” “where is he from?”, “what kind of family?” etc.
I see that nothing has changed at BT (CBC). I was a teenager in the 70′s and was ostracized by the BT youth leadership for being involved with a black young man who didn’t attend the church.
I can remember many racist conversations and whispers during the years I attended BT. It disgusted me then and it disgusts me now that nothing has changed in all of these years. What is even more disgusting is that people buy into CBC BS!
After my experiences at BT, I realized that BT was not a place I wanted to belong to and after graduation I left the church.
I now attend a church with people of all races and walks of life and I have found more love from the church I attend now than I ever felt at BT.
BT leadership did not show me the Love of Christ and because of them my heart and faith turned cold for many years.
I am so glad I left when I did and that my entire family is out of that organization.
ND and ex-slave —
Some of your respective points are well-taken, and I hear what you are saying. The atrocities, beatings, lynchings, etc., that happened to blacks in the South literally makes me sick to my stomach, as it should to everyone who claims to be a believer in Jesus.
But I don’t think you are hearing what I’m saying. Allow me to make the following points:
1. It is not ONLY (nor merely) blacks (or Asians, or whomever) who have experienced racism. Nor is it the black man that is the only ethnic group that has been enslaved in their past, and thus has a certain burden to bear. I care little for playing the numbers game, as if it happening to many is more evil than when it happened to fewer. Or that blacks have “more of the market” on it. Throughout history, most every race can be shown to have not only been enslaved, but also to have practiced slavery themselves, and enslaved/owned hundreds of thousands and even millions of people from other (and even the same) races. This would also include blacks practicing slavery over other blacks, and even over Europeans (whites).
This can be read about HERE.
2. ND, you describe how “we†— other blacks — were “taken from our land,†and “sold†like property, etc. I can also say that “we†— that is, other whites — had the same thing happen to them. (Again, see the Wikipedia reference) We can all share stories about how someone we heard of, or read about, or personally known experienced this or that. Or quote incidents from history. NONE of that is being denied.
But, I’m pretty sure that you, being a black man, were not centuries ago PERSONALLY taken from your ancestral home and sold into slavery by white Dutch slave-traders— though perhaps your great-great-great grandfather was.
And I, being a white man, can happily say the same — though perhaps my great-great-great grandfather had it happen to him.
AFAIK that stuff didn’t actually happen to either one of us PERSONALLY. But, when I described the racism I experienced in MY childhood and adolescence, I was talking about what happened — not to someone else, and at some other time in history that I read about in a book — but to ME personally. Things which “I†experienced in MY OWN individual history. And I PERSONALLY, as a 50-year-old man, am daily looked upon with hatred by dozens of people that I pass, people from another country and culture — with darker complexions than I — just because I’m lighter-skinned than they are.
Don’t believe me? Think it’s not as bad as being called the n-word? Shall I repeat for you the filthy names — laden with despicable profanity and racial slurs — they call me? Names, the likes of which I pray you haven’t had directed at you? Names directed at my skin, my color, my mother, my wife? Shall I describe for you how I have treated those same persons fairly, just as I treat white folk? Or the many times I have helped out quite a few of those same ones financially? Or given them clothing, household goods, and furniture, much of which was new? Or the times when I, as their supervisor, have protected, defended and shielded them from my employer, who happens to be white? And then, as soon as they get a chance, watch them stab me in the back to said employer?
3. Now, ND, you make a valid good point about the social bias that is directed against you as a black man. Believe me, I hate that looking-down-the-nose attitude. And, I can appreciate the fact that it can be easier for myself, as a white person, in certain situations, to merely change my clothes in order to get “in†somewhere, while someone such as yourself, a black person, may never get “in†to those same circles regardless of what you wore.
(It may interest you to know that most of my wife’s family does that very thing to me, and has done so throughout our entire marriage. I have personally overheard them deride, mock and ridicule the way I dress, the way I look, what I do for a living, my financial situation and social status, etc. All this, despite the fact that I have never done the slightest thing to warrant such attitudes. And, BTW, all this coming from people who purport to be followers of Christ.)
But, let me say this. I personally — MYSELF — was beaten, threatened, stolen from, and traumatized more times than I care to remember by people who were black. I don’t know if the same or similar things happened to you at the hands of whites, but I pray it didn’t. I know very well the shame, fear, insecurity and trauma that can stay with someone for years when they go through that.
4. For you to say that I am somehow disqualified from “comparing burdens†with yourself isn’t fair, bro.
For all you know, I, what with all that I have personally gone through, could very well have a greater burden to bear from past (and current) racism than you do.
I will say this though…Having experienced both types, socio-cultural and physical, I would far rather be personally excluded/experience bias in a socio-cultural environment, than I would to be physically and personally attacked, beaten, and been stolen from. Though both are despicable, the latter, for me, was worse. I still have dreams about it.
Following your logic, I have the right to hate blacks for all those times they beat me, and had my bus fare stolen at knife point. Bear in mind, this actually happened to me, and was not some atrocity that someone read about in a history book as happening to someone else, which would give me even more right for personally hating black people.
But I can’t abide your opinion here. There is no excuse for this hatred, discrimination and reverse-discrimination.
Well put, ex-slave. I say AMEN to that.
But, then you say this, with which I can’t agree…
Neither tell ME that what I have experienced isn’t “true racism.†Neither “marginalize†what has happened to ME. OK?
-joebib
I don’t think anyone unless you are black can relate to their experiences living in a white world. I am a white woman who grew up in a majority black neighborhood as a child. When Martin Luther King was assassinated we were threatened and picked on by black kids in school until my parents finally pulled us out of school and we moved. That wasn’t racism towards me, it was anger at what “white society” had caused.
I grew up not paying attention to the the color of someones skin and the death of MLK shook me as a child to the core. I couldn’t understand why all of a sudden people I loved hated me for being white.
You don’t often hear the words white privilege. Racism is a term that we use more often. In this country there are advantages and protections for having white skin.
I read an article a while back that discussed White Privilege. White privelege is not only about experiences on an individual level but it is institutional and cultural preferential treatment. Here are some of the white priveleges mentioned in that article:
* I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
* I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
* If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
* I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
* I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
* I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
* Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
* I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
* I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
* I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the “person in charge”, I will be facing a person of my race.
* I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children’s magazines featuring people of my race.
* I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.
*I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
* I will feel welcomed and “normal” in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.
_____
I can understand why blacks feel the way they do about white people. I am saddened that in 2008 we are still having these discussions but it’s a fact that racism is alive today, boldly and covertly. We have not come that far yet as a nation.
What is even more sad is that these racist activities go on in churches who preach the Love of God. This is the one place where anybody should feel safe and comfortable and loved regardless of the color of their skin.
Shame. . .
The born-again spirit-filled believer is most certainly acquainted with persecution and hatred – it’s just a different ‘venue’ …
Joebib, I am getting more and more irritated that you truly think you can compare racial burdens. I don’t think I have to prove to you that blacks have “out suffer” whites, history shows that. It pains me that anyone has to suffer on any level regardless of race, but you cannot enter a black persons skin and see what he/she sees and feels, period.
Let me put it this way, in order for me survice, I have to engage the white world. For you to survive, you don’t have to engage my black world. The American system is set up for white people first and foremost and the rest of us minorities are left to fight for the crumbs. There is a clear cut pecking order in our country and Black Panther nationalist Elaine Brown put it well;
If you are white, your right
If you yellow, you mellow’
If you brown, then stick around (not after 9/11)
If you black, git back WAY Back!
If you really want to help minorities then stop trying make yourself a minority. Instead, speak to power, armed with the gospel, show ignorant white people their white privilege and how it gets in the way of true racial renconciliation and let minorities deal with minorities hurt and bitterness that gets in the way of reconciliation.
Kmarie said:
You go girl. Nice to see someone finally hearing and speaking the truth.
Jobib, I don’t know what to say dog. Your arguments are very well spoken but I just can’t jump on that train. I am not here to banter back and forth however, so I think we can agree that racism is alive and well in our country, and we should all make an effort to fight it. On everything else, lets just agree to disagree.
Much love.
joebib said
Are you kidding me????? Wow, you got me laughin’ my black ass off over here. What nonsense? Hear YE all you white bloggers, Joebib has just set your race back a 100 years with this silliness.
Joebib, if I was to enumerate my “personal” stories about experiencing racism in America, I’m not sure there is enough time and space to blog all my encounters. I can’t even reason with you because you think your experiences rival mine or better yet, exceed them. Dude your experiences don’t even rival the whitest black guys I know. You might get some sympathy on the O-Reilly Factor, but that’s about it.
Allow me to humbly give you some closing advice, the next time any of those damn minorities give you one of those racist looks, tell them to knock it off because you’ve experienced way more racism then they have, that should do the trick!!!
!!!
HA HA HA HA HA….Negro this is one of the funniest things I have read on the blog. Good one!
Funny how people who fled abusive situations, wind up abusing people here.
Negrodamus and ex-City Slave – what I am hearing you say to JoeBib is that his experience and view isn’t valid because your experiences outweigh his in severity and number? You do realize you’re dishing the same treatment you seem to abhor – that of being marginalized, discounted, invalidated?
Seems to me you’re trying to oppress / suppress him? Turn that around you’d most certainly cry foul!
An Unscrupulous Man said:
So are you calling me and ex-City Bible Slave “THE MAN”? Wow, now we are the oppressors, sounds good to me! You know what comes next EX-CB Slave, we’re just a bunch angry black men.
Scrupe, for the record, I don’t think his experience is invalid, didn’t you hear me say in earlier post to Joebib:
My problem is not to invalidate or discredit his experience of racism being a white man, my problem is his ignorance about our struggle. To even equate or insinuate that he has been discriminated against just as much if not more than black people is ridiculous and absurd. If we really want to improve race relations than Joebibs underlying assumption have to be addressed. Now if you call that crying foul than call it what you may.
Whooo now, I’m not abusing anybody. Just trying to understand where Jobib is coming from. If he has taken offense to any of my words, to that I am sorry, not my intent. Like I said, I’m not here to argue, but I also have no time for ignorance.
Lets not get sidetracked on the bigger issue here. This post was put up by Catalyst because of the pure bigotry that was displayed against my wife and I from people who are supposed to be God fearing Christains. That’s just sick and wrong in itself. But what’s even worse is the amount of people who sidestep, ignore, and excuse their actions. This is why racism is alive and well in America. Not only are their people who practice such hatered, there are also people who won’t step out to stop it either.
Guys – perhaps we all know “the man” in different ways, eh?
I’ve met “the man” in civil court, at work, in churches, in finance and the music business, etc. The treatment you two have received just happens to be one of the most overt forms. Most of us can identify with the ill feelings of oppression and mistreatment – though perhaps not with the frequency and severity of what you have experienced.
So, anyway, can’t we all just get along?!?
Love and appreciation for you both.
‘Scrupe
Ha! I was one of the Princesses who dated an Urban Progress kid… Lets see I got kicked out of TREK, trespassed, expelled from school. Fun stuff! Then, my boyfriend got dragged out of a Sunday service up to a (will remain unnamed Pastor’s office) and trespassed. So for those wondering if peoples stories hold any truth or not, they do. However, no I’m not angry at CBC because without them I wouldn’t be where I am today. And I think this blog is hilarious. Good work.
[Comment ID #33772 Will Be Quoted Here]
Wow, we must have been there at the same time then, sad how so many people went through the same thing, but so few people actually shared there stories at the time. I am sure there are countless kids up there today going through similar problems. Lets hope this blog helps them speak out much sooner then we did.
ROMANS 15:13 PEACE to you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth Amen.