Insecure Pastors
Posted on February 7th, 2008 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, David Mackin Writes: category
I have met doctors, lawyers, policemen, professors, cabinet makers, real estate agents and many other professionals over the years, but I have never met as many insecure men as those in the pastorate.
In one church, the pastor did not have a college education, so every time I’d try to talk with him about something on an academic level, he’d show obvious signs of insecurity. One time I was carrying the book, The Institutes of Biblical Law by R. J. Rushdoony, an intellectual Christian Reconstructionist, and the pastor said with an insecure smile on his face, “Oh! Rushdoony; he’s a nice guy!” (probably not even knowing that Rushdoony was polar opposites with him on many theological points!)
I have had more than one pastor ask me to proof read a paper for them only to find out after I looked it over, their insecurities flared up so much that they never talked to me about their paper again and showed no sign of appreciating my efforts to improve their work.
Here are some theories as to why so many pastors might suffer with the emotional problem of insecurity:
1-Pastors are sensitive, people-persons and so their insecurity stems out of their super-sensitivity to God and people’s needs.
2-Some pastors do not have college or advanced degrees, and so they feel easily intimidated by those in their congregations who have more education than they do.
3-Pastors who see their churches as business enterprises will exhibit signs of insecurity because they are always operating with a hidden agenda: to somehow manipulate those in the congregation to donate their time, money and talent to help them to fulfill their personal ministry vision.
4-Pastors are insecure because they have a deep need to be loved and appreciated by others. They will sometimes do whatever it takes to get that affirmation from their congregations.
5-Pastors operate as political animals if they belong to a denominational or hierarchical structure. Their various social posturings and foci on self-advancement contribute to their insecurity in their effort to climb their organizational pyramids.
6-Pastors who make public image their number one priority in life never give themselves the chance to be transparent about their feelings, weaknesses or needs because they constantly have to try to be a “good example” to the flock.
Do you think that pastors tend to rather insecure people? If so, why?
What do you think might be some of the consequences to a congregation if its pastor is extremely insecure?
In what ways do you think that Christians might be able to help pastors become more emotionally secure?
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February 7th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
great post david.
relate openly about real life stuff without spiritualizing everything or using christianese. oh, and cuss. to the pastor. not in a malicious way, but drop an eff bomb as an adjective or something. Like if the pastor asks, How are you doing today? You can reply I’m doing effin great.
oK, ok, I’m joking, well, actually I’m half joking. I dropped the f bomb to one of my pastor friends (who I don’t think is insecure) and he cracked up and said that he noticed I’m a lot more relaxed and less religious these days and he hopes to loosen up himself. I coached him, “Just practice cussing in front of the mirror.” We had a good laugh.
But my point is really not about naughty four-letter words. My point is let’s be honest about our sh*t with our leaders and each other and help inspire one another to honesty and transparency.
My good friend and fellow blogger, Erin Word, wrote a great post about how church taught her how to lie. I think churches ought to strive to be the safest communities where there is a disarming atmosphere to be known for who you are. Maybe pastors will let their guard down more when we let our guard down more.
I sure the eff hope so.
February 8th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Interesting post David! I think reason #3 is what I have personally seen most.
“What do you think might be some of the consequences to a congregation if its pastor is extremely insecure?”
One of the things that happens is the division between the clergy and the lay people. There is a real tendency for those in ‘ministry’ to associate with others in ‘ministry’, and exclude ‘common’ people. Even their language is different, they speak in ‘christianese’ and move in areas of ‘revelation knowledge’ to set themselves aside. This is not a new development. I think ‘revelation knowledge’ is today’s equivalent to having the mass in latin. If the ‘clergy on the platform’ are the only ones with ‘revelation knowledge’, then the ‘common people’ have to depend on them for spiritual instruction. This is harder pull off today, with the scripture easily available in plain language, but the vast ignorance of scripture in todays society allows them to proceed.
Christ warned against becoming a ‘religious leader’ in Matthew 23:1-13, and Paul does likewise in 1 Corinthians 11:17-19. The result of such behavior is a powerless Christianity that lays heavy burdens on its followers.
February 8th, 2008 at 10:17 am
I think the best explanation is #4. But I should qualify my thoughts by saying that I think this applies mostly to modern evangelical churches.
In most churches, the whole Sunday experience is conducted in a way that gives reverence to the pastor. A pastor’s opinion is taken as gospel among the congregants, he is well respected within the church, and he gets to golf a lot during work hours. For a young man in the congregation who believes that the respect, love, and admiration of other people is the only thing standing between him and happiness, becoming a pastor is a logical career choice.
I don’t mean to suggest that the motives are entirely wrong. In nearly every case, at least in part, out of a sincere desire to lead people to Christ. But I suspect that receiving the kind of admiration they see being given to other pastors is a strong unspoken motivation for people who struggle with insecurity.
Ironically, I also think insecure men are much more likely to be successful in churches that place a premium on authority and growth. Those who crave the respect and admiration of men are much more likely to give respect and admiration themselves. That will endear them to the leadership and get them promoted.
Furthermore, if he’s reasonably good looking and has people skills, he’ll probably be good at growing the church. He’ll work really hard at making other people happy and comfortable. He needs people to like him so he’ll give them what they want. In turn, they’ll give him what he wants. Its a beautiful co-dependency.
To me, the real shame occurs when the leadership doesn’t take the time to ensure the spiritual maturity of the younger men before they’re placed into leadership roles. Insecurity is easy to spot but frequently overlooked because the person is already “effective” in “growing the ministry”.
And now, because that sounds really cycnical, I should also say that frequently men are completely captured by Jesus and have a desire to serve him in an official ministry capacity. People will be drawn to him because he reflects the character of Christ and he will be promoted because God exalts the humble. He is secure in his relationship with Christ and unconcerned with the approval of others. Thankfully, this happens all the time as well.
February 8th, 2008 at 11:15 am
FWIW, I think #3 happens because of #4.
February 9th, 2008 at 12:30 am
Off topic, but WOW. You can be JUDAH’S FAN on Facebook! Anyone with a facebook.. here’s the link.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Judah-Smith/6856719269?ref=nf
:|
February 9th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I didn’t have the nerve to join. And I wonder if he set this up himself or if someone else set it up for him.
February 10th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I dunno. It seems like he did because it says things like “Judah wrote on his wall” “Judah uploaded a video”
but I could be wrong.
February 10th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
David, I really enjoyed your post. I think, more than anything, pastors simply place themselves under way too much pressure. I think it has a lot to do with the way that the American church is structured, with the pastor preaching/performing for his audience/congregation.
I really do feel bad for most pastors. They set themselves up on a pedestal they can’t live up to, make promises they can’t fulfill, and are seemingly always worried about being exposed for a fraud. Most pastors I’ve known feel that they have to literally live a perfect life as an example for their congregation, which becomes such a huge burden to live up to and takes such a toll on their lives that it just ruins them.
Most pastors I knew seem to have (or at least started out with) good intentions, but it just gets lost in the legalistic lifestyle they end up forcing themselves into because they’re too afraid of people realizing that pastors are people too. I guess that it’s more the fault of the current structure of today’s church services that creates this pressure for the “perfect Pastor” image.
The concept of a passive audience listening to someone teach them religion has created this paradigm that because this person is teaching religion, he better be far better than everyone else at practicing it, which is simply not a fair assumption. But the pastor has to keep up the charade, and therefore will always find himself stuck in this paradoxical predicament.
More than anything, I feel terrible for the children of pastors. Having to keep the rest of the congregation think that your family life is perfect seems to ruin families and children. Most pastor’s kids that I know have either taken on the legalism of their parents and think they’re better than everyone else, or they’ve just become torn apart by the lifestyle they’ve had to live. The great tragedy of it all is that none of these kids chose to be born to pastors, it’s just the way that fate had it for them.
February 11th, 2008 at 10:59 am
What a great post David and you are truly on to something here.
It has long been a consensus among us (even before we left the former church) that the pastor we served under was and is deeply insecure. It was the only explanation we had for his baffling behavior. He is an intelligent person with a college education but family dynamics play a big part of his make-up and motivation.
We felt the root of his insecurity stemmed from his authoritarian father but more importantly from his ongoing competition with his more charasmatic cousin who is also a pastor and more affluent than he is. The competition was very evident because he was one way with us, the hopeful somewhat happy person implimenting his next step but would then change into another person after a visit with the cousin who lives in another state. Each time he returned from visiting his cousin who was obviously lording his success over our pastor and his family, he would often show hints of desperation and urgency to duplicate the current program up in his cousin’s church–often completely halting what we had going midstream, no matter how hard he or any of us had worked on it. It was central to the bad behavior there.
He’s like 2 people: 1) the secure, comfortable in his own skin, fatherly, good teacher type and 2) the insecure, whining and hard task master, never satisfied type. We liked guy #1 and put up with guy #2 for so long because of nice guy #1. Because we all seemed to succomb to somekind of worship fest with guy #1, we came to resent the cousin and dreaded his trips to see him or when we knew Mr. Name Dropping Full of HImself Cousin came to speak at our church. Granted, he WAS and is a funny guy and easy to listen to, but the drama that ensued after he was gone was too high a price to pay for his entertaining ways in the pulpit.
If it had only been insecurity that motivated our pastor’s weirdness, perhaps it could have been fixed. But from what we hear, the dysfunction is morphing. Lately we’ve been wondering if he must have given himself over to #3 and #6 whereas before it may have just been #6. I don’t think #1 ever came into play. Perhaps early on when he started it may have been on the radar but the needs of the people never seemed to be what it was about with him, although we were all instructed to take care of the people and sacrifice our time to do things in his and his wife’s name. He definitely has a great teaching gift and characteristics of a teacher. Pastor was probably never his true calling. But being a pastor must be what’s most important in the MFI world and certainly something he needs to keep pursuing since that’s what his cousin does. Plus, for him that’s where the income is coming from.
I need to add that many have tried to point some of the dysfunction out to our former pastor often motivated by a love for him and concern for the church, but he has no ears to hear and views anyone who leaves him and the church as disloyal.
People are SO complicated– all of us are. That’s why it’s so important to get the focus off the celebrity pastor like David’s been writing about. We all need leaders but they need to be the types that point to the example of Jesus Christ who is the only example worth following since he is our savior and reliably without a hidden agenda.
February 11th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Pastors suffer from the “generational curse” of insecurity.
Pray that they will be able to overcome this curse.
February 11th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Yer funny, Cat. Very funny.
Though I suspect fear plays a huge part in a pastor’s insecurity … picture Jonah with a ‘word from the Lord’ for Nineveh and he’s like: “I ain’t gonna tell them that - they’ll put a cap in my ass …” So he runs away … on the one side, God directing him with an unpopular message, on the other, the mob he has to deliver the message to … poor bugger can’t win.
Same sort of deal with Aaron while Moses was up the hill - the people confronted him as a mob and demanded he make them a god to worship … at least that’s implied in the demand of the people: “UP! Make us gods” … seen from the people’s perspective again when they demanded Samuel give them a king like other nations - presumably because they feared God and wanted a leader they could see and hear - so Samuel gave them Saul …
Seems like the flock fears God and wants a human leader who in turn fears the people for the message of God he’s charged to bring to them …
I suspect it’s different for you charismania-raised believers - but in the traditional main-line denoms I came up in, it is not at all unusual to hear a member threaten the pastor - or see a pastor ousted when he gets a little “too far out” for the congregation who are committed to the status quo … back here, I’ve met pastors who were summarily fired for a “get up and get moving” type sermon, or for making overtones of migrating from a traditional worship service to a more contemporary service …
There’s good reason for pastors to be insecure, when they’re sandwiched between God and a mob who doesn’t really want to do things God’s way …
‘Scrupe
February 11th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Scrupe said:
Truly. So, it would be in the pastor’s best interest to minimize himself to the simplicity that Jesus exampled and follow Him. He may lose the whole world and gain his own soul back.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Pastor’s are insecure because they are out of touch with reality. They surround themselves with yes men who tell them everything they want to hear and they begin to believe they are bigger and better then what they really are. If I were a pastor I would quit spending everyday behind the four walls of the church, speaking at conferences, and having dinners with other pastoral elites. I would get out with the real people–take a side job driving around community services workers one day a week, volunteer at a high school teaching PE or coaching a sport, go into the church on saturday nights and help the janitors clean up for Sunday service, quite accepting invitations to speak at religious focused summer camps and retreats and go to a camp/retreat for kids with HIV/AIDS or mental disabilities. Many of today’s mega pastors want they same kind of fame, money, and noteriety that celebrities have. And I truly believe there is nothing wrong with that life, if that’s the life one wants. However, because they are a legalistic Christian it would be too worldly and ungodly to seek those things outside of a church so they put on a lie that they care about people and use preaching, book writing, and conference traveling as a way to get the recognition they so badly crave. The insecurity comes because they know that no matter what they do, they will never be able to admit that its less about the people and more about the money/fame. If pastors were truly about the people none of this mega church, conference, christian celebrity stuff would be going on.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Too bad the insecure pastors won’t take time to read some of these posts and take notes (if they could come down from their lofty perches). I’ve often wondered if this could be a time where ‘judgment begins with the house of God’. Is it happening before our very eyes?
It’s not just the pastors who need to come down from such great heights. In order to save our faith we let the Lord help us meet the insecurity head on, allow Christ to be strong where we are the weakest? We’ve all had to deal with the insecurity issues that drew us to these dysfunctional churches in the first place. In His kindness, the Lord has rescued us from those places and those pastors so that we can do that.
February 12th, 2008 at 8:45 am
De-tox, fabulous comments above! If you don’t mind me saying this: I would not be surprised if the Lord would want you to record all of the lessons that you have learned from your spiritual abuse situations and be able to share them with others in written form to help heal many broken-hearted believers. I see a lot of depth and maturity in your comments and could easily see how the Lord could use you in this way. Writing blessings to you…
—-
Scupe, Good point about the potential difference in attitudes toward leadership between charismatic/pentecostal groups and non-. This acute observation actually is something I’d like to research more into someday from a sociological-psychological viewpoint.
If generally true, do you think it has something to do with the lack of education thus lack of ability or willingness to question church leadership; and/or might it have something to do with the use of the Bible by leadership: one group emphasizes the “submit” verses from the pulpit while the other emphasizes more the “teamwork” verses (priesthood of all believers) from the pulpit? Very interesting! Thanks.
February 14th, 2008 at 7:46 am
Hi Dave,
I’ve been thinking about this for awhile and can’t really answer except for my own experience. Born and raised in a Presbyterian church, I was in my early 20’s when I first heard about / witnessed the gift of tongues at an indy charismatic church in Federal Way that I was booked into for a concert. Twenty years of teaching / sunday school - confirmation - baptism at the Presbyterian church and I’d never heard of tongues, or for that matter any of the other spiritual gifts? Good grief.
My experience at the indy charismatic church left me conflicted, because while one man had a beautiful fluent language, the woman who was praying just uttered the same 3 syllables over and over - which sounded fake to me. But the man - I knew his was a real language. In response, I launched into the scriptures about it and read a dozen books about the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts, many of which lost me when the authors suggested “priming the pump” by babbling like a baby until the Holy Spirit came on the scene and converted my babble into real tongues …
Eventually I left the Presbyterian church and church-hopped for many years, always at non-charismatic churches, until I lighted at a swedish covenant church and joined the membership. Nearly 20 years after my experience in that charistmatic church in FW, and praying all the while for the Holy Spirit and gifts, I finally received what I’d been praying for. Excitedly I told the senior pastor and a few friends, then observed over the course of several weeks people distancing themselves from me. There were even comments from people like “if anyone ever speaks in tongues here, we’ll deal with it” (an usher, meaning apparently the tongue speaker would be escorted out, or told to be quiet). It was after several such awkward experiences that I figured out that “non-charismatic” often means “anti-charismatic” and that mainline churches, because of their tradition and doctrine which pre-dates the charismatic renewal, are fortressed against the Holy Spirit - in fact deny the Holy Spirit and gifts altogether.
In my experience with non-charismatics there seems to be the presumption that “if it hasn’t happened to me then it must not be real - especially if it happens to the likes of you, because you are not as worthy as I am … ” Many times I’ve encountered non-charismatics which includes nearly all the main-liners I’ve met, who deny the gifts of the spirit and thereby the Spirit himself, the worst of whom maintain that the gifts I and every other spirit-baptized/filled believer have, actually originate with the devil and that us tongue-speakers are hopelessly deceived.
I haven’t heard of it very often, but can recall the report of a couple of main-line churches who embraced the charismatic renewal - which in turn split the church. To the best of my recollection, Black Diamond (WA) Presbyterian church was one such church - back in the 80’s, as I recall. There’s been 1 or 2 I’ve heard of here in the midwest, too. Typically though, the powers that be in any mainline non-charismatic church succeed in squelching the charismata …
As for responsibility - it lies with church pastors who teach the denominational party line, preach according to the advent calendar common in mainline churches and per the sermon guide published by denomination HQ. There was a time, Dave, I sat down with a couple of years worth of church bulletins, and made note of every passage read from the pulpit (usually an OT and a NT passage) upon which the sermons were founded … doing so, I concluded that only 3-5% of the Bible was ever read aloud / taught from in the church. I also noticed that passages concerning the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts were never read or taught from. In similar fashion, I once noted that the average sermon is founded upon 10 or less verses of scripture - and computed how long it would take to get through the entire Bible, without repeat, at 10 verses per week. I think it worked out to 80-90 years …
To put it in perspective, the Lord had me prayer-walk daily around a church for the 50 days between Easter and Pentecost one year. When Pentecost came, I was expecting something big - but the pastor didn’t even mention Pentecost on Pentecost Sunday. So that afternoon I was out prayer walking again - I remember saying to God, with anger, “I’m BAAAACCCCKKKK!”
I continued prayer walking that church until Karen and I moved back here to IL.
The fault also lies with content-to-be-ignorant believers who do not read their Bibles or otherwise seek out the Lord during the week via prayer, devotion, study … if they’re content to be spoon-fed from the pulpit and if the church preaches the same sermons year after year based on the advent calendar cycle, members never get exposed to passages of scripture that contradict the denominations doctrine and practices …
I’ve come to the conclusion that many believers who attend such churches really just want to hear messages from the pulpit that tell them “I’m OK, you’re OK …” and are never challenged to go deeper with God, much less repent and grow in faith. So when God picks someone in their midst and gives them “the goods”, they can either embrace God’s work in that person, or drive them out as having become too fanatical or the like. All I’ve known since receiving the goods, is the sort who persecute and drive out.
Aside from denominational doctrine, tradition, etc., which predate the charismatic renewal, there’s other control measures in place that have serious impact … many denominations require local churches to deed over buildings and lands to the denomination - it ensures brand loyalty. Resignation from a denomination is to forfeit the building and lands that the congregation bought and paid for … may denominations (Methodist, for example), replace pastors from HQ and do not give congregations a choice in the matter of pastoral selection …
They’re completely different worlds from charismatic churches, Dave … and this being the staunchly traditional, predominantly Catholic rural midwest, I can hardly buy my way into a church here - forget any kind of concert ministry - “He speaks in tongues?!?” Run! Hide the children! Board up the windows! OK - that’s overly dramatic - but that’s what it feels like.
‘Scrupe
February 14th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
scrupe, thanks for sharing your insights and some of your frustrations; it must be very difficult to have a music ministry in a place that is so spiritually traditional; has the Lord planted you there for good or have you ever considered moving: if you don’t mind me asking…
i, too, grew up in a historic denomination that followed the annual liturgy; very stifling and they say that they follow it to “keep the doctrine pure…” - but, in the end, as you so rightly pointed out, it’s mostly to keep the religious business franchise rolling along.
February 14th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Dave, I believe the Father moved me here to deal with my love for religion, tradition and craving for religious position / leadership - not unlike what He did with the Israelites “… you want meat to eat? I’ll give you meat - until it’s coming out of your nostrils!” (Numbers 11:20) … I used to love it all, enjoyed various church leadership positions and the notion of music ministry, all the while wanting more of Him … I believe a person can’t really have them both - it’s either embrace religion or the Lord … but I had to learn that the hard way.
I remember one elderly elder at the last church who told me that my money, talent and labor were welcome at the church, but not that Holy Spirit stuff - I had to leave that at home. He didn’t seem to understand that I couldn’t take the HS off and on like a garment …
The point I’m at now is contentment - grateful that I have a soul-mate and spiritual sister who is likewise filled and gifted … the notion of music ministry is really burdensome - even loathsome to me now because to do so is to lend my support to a system I have found to be corrupt. How could I do the so-called ’special music’ during a worship service and then keep my mouth shut while a pastor gave the typical “touch not mine anointed” sermon or called for the tithe? My very presence and participation is an implied approval of the system … so I’m out and am able to stay out …
At 52, I don’t really miss the concert scene - packing a truckload of gear in and out of churches is not easy anymore - and the nonsense a person has to go through just to arrange a booking isn’t something I’m willing to put up with anymore … like the pastoral interview to assess your doctrine - or the warnings like the UCC pastor gave me once: “don’t talk about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - the baptist band was here last month and talked about it incessantly, which really confused our people” … and I’m like “don’t talk about Jesus? Are you freakin’ kiddin’ me?” He wasn’t.
My wife has just a couple more years of teaching high school before she can retire - after that, we’re game to go anywhere. I have a dear friend and missionary in Mexico who we want to visit then - who knows - the Lord may call us to something like that.
‘Scrupe.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
good stuff! Its sad to think about how many peoples lives are effected by
these insecurities and how many unessessary hurts are caused. I grew up at BT/CBC and have a younger sister. I knew God was real in my life from the get go, my sister unsure. I was outgoing, my sister shy. I got the lead role in almost every prduction BT used to do, she did not… you get the idea..but here we were, same upbringing, church etc., yet I was confident in my place with God and she struggled. She should have had pastors and leaders pouring into her life and helping her figure things out right?! How was it that I was the one being asked to countless lunches, fun outings, and hours of hanging out with leadership?! I think its because somehow the group of friends I had, that were also getting so much time invested by leadership, made them look good. We were easier than the shy girl questioning God and dealing with tough life issues. An insecure pastor wants people around him that will help him achieve his goal of making himself look better. I know that many people have been neglected, ignored and traded for others that may ‘help’ and insecure pastor feel good about what hes doing. So to those who really needed time with leadership and never once got asked, I am so sorry for unknowingly taking the time of leaders that should have been truely pastoring those in need and not covering for insecurities. My sister is one of them but how many others have been disillutioned with church because of pastors not focusing as much on people that need them, as on ‘hiding’ their own insecurities?!
February 16th, 2008 at 6:32 am
Thanks for that excellent post and insights, Grace Girl.
I think it’s a wonderful thing that the Lord has allowed you the precious (but potentially dangerous!) gift of self-introspection.
Not many people are prepared for — nor can handle — the truth and realities they find within themselves when doing so.
Reminds me of that verse that I almost daily ask of the Lord:
I appreciate the way you’ve responded to your look within, and your honesty.
-joebib
February 16th, 2008 at 8:13 am
This morning, I was thinking about how often I have heard believers say “judgment begins in the house of God”, yet it’s clear from context that they expect the Lord to come judge the institutional church, etc.
Instead, I was thinking that “judgment begins within the house of God” really means the internal cleansing work we do in partnership with the Holy Spirit … after all, Acts 7:48 and 17:24 say God does NOT abide in houses made by men (brick and mortar church buildings). Rather, 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19 say that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit - specifically, since pentecost, people are the house of God, not a stone temple.
So that gift of introspection is potentially God exercising judgment in His temple (you), cleansing it and making it more fit for habitation of the Spirit.
As for judgment of the IC / church buildings - I think it’s already happened - 2000 years ago - see Matthew 23:38.
‘Scrupe
February 16th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Hey all, if you are interested in reading about what’s wrong with some American pastors today check out this article:
The Celebrity Syndrome
By Steve Hill
Jesus called His followers to be servants. But in today’s flashy church scene, some leaders have become superstars.
There is a disease sweeping through the body of Christ. It’s an infectious sickness I call “the man of God syndrome” or “the celebrity syndrome.” It rears its ugly head in the form of self-adulation and self-promotion.
Click here to read more: http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=16633
February 16th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
scrupe, thanks for your openness about the dealings of God; if i understood you correctly, it sounds like your message to all of the christians who attend traditional churches would be to get out because they can’t have it both ways? one of the books i want to write, Lord willing, has to do with what happens to the kingdom of God when it is taken by men and turned into a business franchise…
by the way, do you have a home fellowship of some kind in which you can share your excellent music ministry and bless others?
February 16th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
grace girl said: An insecure pastor wants people around him that will help him achieve his goal of making himself look better. I know that many people have been neglected, ignored and traded for others that may ‘help’ and insecure pastor feel good about what hes doing.
grace girl, deep and fantastic! “image management” all the way instead of ministering to the needy and weak; paul says, “strengthen the weak” —
your comments about you and your sister hit me really deeply; all of a sudden i have a burden for your sister; may i ask how she is doing in the Lord right now?
February 16th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
grace girl, as i read a few comments relating to your “confession” - maybe i need to read it again - but i wonder how could you be responsible for the behavior of leaders who chose to spend more time with those students or youth group members (i assume) that made them look good? how could that be your fault? now that you are away from the situation (i’m assuming again) and have hind sight, and a burden for you sister, are you maybe seeing how you would try to act differently if you could do it all over again? if so, i would not interpret this in tems of a sin/guilt issue, but as a matter of maturity and the development of keener perceptions socially and spiritually; again, what young person can be held responsible for simply enjoying with their friends the attention of leadership? am i missing something here?
February 18th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Scrupe said
That’s like saying judgment doesn’t need to take place in these churches who are destroying the faith of those who are trusting that the leadership is lookng out for their best interest. We are angry that this is still happening to people here in these MFI churches and nothing is changing– no one is doing anything about it. Everyone is still sucking up to the same idol senior pastor family and frankly we lost patience with this a long time ago. The way they cloak their bad decisions and cover their greed in religiousness while taking taking taking from their flock is nothing short of sickening. And yes, they need judgment. It needs to stop.
David said
Thanks David. I’ve been meaning to get back here and respond to your suggestion. A few of us are keeping notes and such. There are a few different forms of expression we are mulling over so I appreciate your encouragement and confirmation. ANYthing to help those who are finally discerning that their situation is not healthy one and that God is on their side and has a beautiful plan for the remainder of their lives!
February 18th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
David said:
As a result of what we all went through at CBC I turned into a legalist and she turned into a party girl. After basically giving up on the church and experimenting with drugs and stripping for cash, she got pregnant and is now a single mom rebounding from the disolutionment of the religious BS that we all know so well. Our relationship took a lot of hits over the years but we are now re-connected and growing in our faith. I hung up my leagalistic ways and she gave up her rebel attitude. It’s amazing how two people so similar can respond to the religious oppression in such different ways. But remember, she is just one of the many who have suffered the carnage from these backward churches. I hope we both become a voice to all who are in our old shoes and use our experiences to help other young people facing the same tough issues.
And to this point:
I never said I was responsible, I just felt bad for monopolizing the leadership’s time and wish that I would have had the mindset to question their methods more carefully. I know it not my fault, but like it or not, I was apart of the system that led many kids astray and it had a great effect on my family. Having seen first hand the result of such ignorant behavior from pastors who are supposed to be leaders, I hope and pray that God will rescue the people who are ignored and hurting before they give up on Him.
February 18th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Does it?
I’m of the belief that the Lord has called His people OUT of the harlot’s religious system altogether. Hence His call to His people in Revelation 18:4.
Come OUT of her, My People!
But people stay and try to reform the harlot? Or perhaps it won’t be so bad if they can just get the current ruling harlot replaced with a more respectable harlot?
Ever notice the end of Revelation 18, where it says there will finally come a time when the Lord’s people will have come out of the harlot - such that the singers, dancers, musicians - specifically the sound of music - will never be heard IN her again? That the blood of prophets and saints is found in her?
What kind of beast / institution is it, that literally feeds on the blood of saints, prophets, and in which is heard the music of the Lord, the worship / singing / playing of the Lord’s minstrels?
Why on earth would saints, prophets, musicians and dancers remain in the harlot and try to reform her, when the Lord so specifically calls us out?
The abusers don’t have to be confronted, reformed or deposed. People just have to leave the harlot’s kingdom.
Perhaps God allows all that crap in your local IC to motivate His people to leave, like He directed them to do? Check THIS out.
Note also that there ain’t no abuse or false doctrine at the feet of Jesus.
‘Scrupe
February 19th, 2008 at 10:30 am
All good points Scrupe. The bad behavior did lead us to finally jump ship as did others, but only after collateral damage to our faith. So we aren’t staying to try to reform it, although we did stay for years, thinking we could bring change. Now we realize it was pride on our part to think we could help bring change. We didn’t realize that we were fighting the extreme arrogance of a system of elitism and, at the risk of sounding like one of the weirdo intercessors we used to know, an ancient religious spirit.
I think you are a bit premature in the assumption that the Harlot is the current collective church. I can see thinking that the celebrity-driven mega church movement (including all the megachurch wannabees like the one we left) reflect the nature of the Harlot, but I disagree that every church is part of that. There are some churches that are doing their best to stay focused on the gospel of Jesus Christ and monitor their behavior with safeguards that keep them true to His ways. It’s really not a fair assumption to lump these humble Christians in with the arrogant dictatorial authoritarians who believe that they are God’s chosen Anointed. The Servant Church is most likely part of the ‘called out’ exodus as well as those individuals who have left the IC and haven’t migrated to an organized church but are meeting with friends in a small group somewhere.
Because the entire church as it exists today may not quite be ready to bear the Harlot title, then yes, I think judgment should happen. Mainly because WHY SHOULD THESE LEADERS who are destroying the faith of others by lording their authority over them GET AWAY WITH ALL THEY ARE DOING?
February 19th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Grace Girl said:
Well said Grace Girl and your speaking out does and will make a difference. If enough of us allow the Lord to help us do that maybe we can help undo the damage done. Maybe this is what the ministry of reconciliation is all about.
Speaking of reconciliation, it’s really great that you and your sister are back in each others’ lives and the healing has began. Keep Galations 5:1 as your motto and the wedge that once kept you apart will never have a place again!
February 19th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
At the end of the day, Jesus still said:
Freely ye have received (from me), Freely give (to others).
So what are men doing charging for that which they got for free? And if you charge for something that is supposed to be given away freely out of love for Jesus (after all he did say “if you love me, you will obey my commands), does that make someone (institution) guilty of harlotry?
Remember also the scripture concerning God and mammon. Never the twain shall meet.
I just try to imagine what the church might look like if money were never involved.
‘Scrupe
February 20th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Scrupe,
I think we agree that the money-grabbing celebrity-driven portion of the church may be the forunner of the Harlot spoken of in Revelation. Where we differ is including the churches who ARE effectively acting as an extension of God’s hand to the world in with the self-serving churches. Just because they are an organized church and meet in a building doesn’t mean they are bad, i.e. organization itself isn’t evil. As with everything else, God is looking upon the heart.
I do believe that He is calling many of His people out of the dysfunctional and often abusive portion of the IC. Many of those called out end up at a church like we have that IS functional and doesn’t preach the tithe thing. Many others end up just hanging out with friends, and still many others probably don’t even do that. Whatever scenario works for a person right? and who are we to judge what’s right for that person?
Just remember, many groups who organize because of the faultiness of a current system nevertheless organize if they want to get anything done. A group of people who are against organized religion and feel they need to bring change to society in general is Burning Man. check it out: http://www.burningman.com/
It’s in the nature of man to organize and establish a leader. Those who don’t want to acknowledge leadership still end up with leaders in their midst because the natural leader usually comes to the forefront with his/her ideas and everyone rallies around those ideas and that person’s ability to help motivate people to get things done if there is something they want to accomplish. In small group settings this still holds true, even if the nature of the group is just to hang out. You just watch, the stronger willed people usually dominate the conversation.
February 20th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Here is the mission statement copied from the website of Burning Man:
Our mission is to produce the annual event known as “Burning Man” and to guide, nurture and protect the more permanent community created by its culture. Our intention is to generate society that connects each individual to his or her creative powers, to participation in community, to the larger realm of civic life, and to the even greater world of nature that exists beyond society. We believe that the experience of Burning Man can produce positive spiritual change in the world. To this end, it is equally important that we communicate with one another, with the citizens of Black Rock City and with the community of Burning Man wherever it may arise. Burning Man is radically inclusive, and its meaning is potentially accessible to anyone. The touchstone of value in our culture will always be immediacy: experience before theory, moral relationships before politics, survival before services, roles before jobs, embodied ritual before symbolism, work before vested interest, participant support before sponsorship. Finally, in order to accomplish these ends, Burning Man must endure as a self-supporting enterprise that is capable of sustaining the lives of those who dedicate themselves to its work. From this devotion spring those duties that we owe to one another. We will always burn the Man.
February 20th, 2008 at 11:40 am
No doubt I’m more pessimistic about it all, Detox. I’m reminded of a saying my german teacher often cited: ‘ende gut, alles gut‘ - if the ending is good, all is good, or, all’s well that ends well. Sort of ‘the end justifies the means’ type slogan.
Having visited hundreds of churches and talked with staff and members, there’s a sameness that afflicts them all - that of spending 95-98% of their income on pastor, building, grounds and staff - with a pittance going to clothing the poor, feeding the hungry, foreign missions, etc. In each of the 3-4 churches I’ve held membership, all ‘good’ and well intentioned churches in appearance, they failed miserably to help what few needy people came asking for assistance. Typically, the needy are turned away with nothing - and that’s the non-members / strangers who come calling. Members get the same treatment, though typically with a lecture that their hard times can be attributed to ’secret sin’ or ‘robbing God’ … I’ve heard the story from people in response to my tithe articles often enough that it numbs the senses …
So, when the overwhelming majority of the financial gifts of any church goes to the support of the infrastructure and the paltry leftovers are doled out piecemeal in small, annual donations, can such a church / organization be called good?
If you believe you have found a ‘good church’, would you mind posting some basic data about their financial dealings? Annual income, and basic expenditures like pastor/staff, building/grounds, utilities, service/teaching materials, etc., AND their assistance to the poor and hungry - financial assistance to members having difficulty or medical needs, etc.
What would the Church of Jesus Christ look like, without paid professional pastors and staff, buildings and grounds, 501(c)3, etc.? Do the aforementioned prevent believers / members from doing body ministry and from growing into maturity in Christ Jesus?
I’m just curious to see what the low down is on these professional, institutional churches that are doing good in the community … what does ‘good’ look like in terms of actually helping people with the lion’s share of the wealth of the Church? Sorry to bust your chops, Toxic - but I’m having a hard time reconciling that which the Lord calls “good” and that which men call “good”.
‘Scrupe
February 20th, 2008 at 12:03 pm
I’ll find that out for you. You can also check out the website and do a little investigation on your own: http://www.ccboise.org/AboutUs/ContactUs/tabid/289/Default.aspx
Your thoughts don’t really cause me THAT much concern Scrupe since it’s your opinion and I have my own. And this is a blog afterall.
March 12th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Good point
Being a Pastor isnt about academic excellence it’s all about being called
by our LORD. Plus spending time in the WORD -PRAYER-being under the authority of the WORD …AND….Having the right bible not Alexandian perversions -they cant all be right ! Either GOD in his sovereign role preserved HIS WORD or DIDN’T! And its not a popularity race we are to preach the WORD day in day out the LORD will give the increase!
Cheers
Raymond