The “Yes Man” Culture: Can You Trust Church Staff Employees?
Posted on February 12th, 2008 by David Mackin into the Uncategorized, David Mackin Writes: category
Ex-City Bible Slave says:
“Pastor’s are insecure because they are out of touch with reality. They surround themselves with yes men who tell them everything they want to hear and they begin to believe they are bigger and better then what they really are…”
These words show fabulous insight into the reality of the Yes Men culture in churches run by pastor-kings and some of the consequences that accompany it. I’d like to share a few examples from my own church life experience, then make a few observations, and finally ask you a few questions about your own experience with church staff members:
Example #1 - As I was transitioning out of my home church, I called to talk to the senior pastor. The reason for my call was confidential, and this fact I told the associate pastor who took my call. The associate told me that if I informed him of the reason for my call that he would keep it confidential and allow me to tell the senior pastor myself. He did not. Instead, the associate broke his promise and told the pastor why I was calling. This allowed the pastor to get up his defenses before he picked up the phone.
Example #2 - I shared some questions with the Dean of the Bible college about their church history chart having to do with how NT truths were progressively “restored” throughout church history. I found out later, that the dean immediately went to the senior pastor and told him of my doubts without bringing me along to explain myself.
Example #3 - I mentioned to a former colleague some of my questions about some of the “truths” that we were teaching in our Bible college, and he told me later that after our conversation, he just about went to the Dean himself and told him about our conversation without me being there to speak for myself.
Example #4 - One church staff female counselor told a church member in the church that if she were in her marital situation, that she would probably get a divorce. The staffer told the counselee not to tell anyone else that she made this recommendation to her. (The staffer knew that she was going against the senior pastor’s position on divorce and so didn’t want him or anyone else to find out about it.)
The pastor-king system creates a stifled social and intellectual environment. The pastor-king himself quashes all lines of thinking that bring any of his personal values, visions or interpretations of the Bible into question. When this anti-intellectual atmosphere gets mixed with the senior pastor having the sole power to hire and fire all church staff, there is a cult-like atmosphere formed that consists of intimidation, secrecy, blind loyalty, politicking and man-pleasing to the senior pastor and his traditions.
The senior pastor hires people not primarily because of their ministry anointing or skill-level but because of their loyalty-level. In such a system, there is an unspoken rule that all doubts and questions that pose a potential threat to the rule of the pastor-king, will be immediately brought to him. This creates a system of gossip in the leadership legitimated under the guise of loyalty and unity. When I was a kid, we used to call most of this kind of thing “tattling.” In the pastor-king system, however, it is subconsciously known as “loyalty-building.”
In faithfully bringing all potential threats to the pastor-king, church staff members earn unspoken loyalty points with the man in charge. After all, since all promotions and ministry opportunities within such a system depend upon the initiation or approval of the pastor-king, all church staff members know instinctively that they need to build up as many loyalty points with the senior pastor as possible in order for him to give them more ministry opportunities.
(Some even hope that if they can earn enough loyalty points that the pastor-king might even consider them worthy enough to stand and speak for a moment behind his golden throne – the Sunday morning pulpit!)
What has your experience been with church staff members?
How have church staff employees respected your confidentiality agreements with them?
What, if anything, have church staff members done to show more loyalty for Senior Pastor Tradition than loyalty to you or the pursuit of truth?
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February 13th, 2008 at 5:16 am
David,
Your post brought to memory an incident at the 76th & Glisan BT. I don’t remember the date, but it was a Sunday gathering, and KRI was speaking.
He was detailing some changes in staff positions, and someone was promoted to ‘head of counseling’. He went on to say that for small issues and day to day matters, you could get counsel from your district pastor, but if you were a “real basket case”, then you would need to see the “head of counseling”! He then paused for a moment, and grew red in the face…”some of you are seeing the head counselor, aren’t you…” This was followed by an outburst of laughter from the congregation.
At the time, I thought it was pretty funny. Looking back however, I wonder how much pain was inflicted by that off the cuff remark. I also wonder about the attitude that was displayed there.
Years later, when I had an issue I wanted counsel for, the ‘elder’ I saw declined. He said he “would give the issue to an intercessor” instead. Wow! That was real helpful!
In Isa. 11:2, Christ is forseen as having a “spirit of counsel”. I would think if someone is in ministry, they would have at least some of Christ’s attributes working. On the bright side, that last incident lead me to look elsewhere for help, and I found it through the Holy Spirit leading me to a good counselor, Theo Johnson.
February 13th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
whatHEsaid, Thanks for sharing.
As I recall, the subject of psychology and counseling was a very controversial issue in the church you mentioned. I know some had to leave that local church because the senior pastor at the time so criticized psychology. Maybe the comment that you highlightrd above was directly fed by an anti-psychology bias: “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks…”
In my view, some of that was fueled by Jay Adams, The Christian Counselors Manual and possibly Dave Hunt’s, Psychology and the Church. In my view, Larry Crabb has responded to the issues, at least in general, in his book, Effective Biblical Counseling. Much of the conflict seems to revolve around what role Christians’ emotions are to play in their lives versus unemotional, willed obedience to the laws of God.
One day, I came across a paper that the elders of our local church were going to discuss on the issue of counseling and psychology. When I read through it, I felt utterly shocked at not only the ignorance of the healthy elements of psychology but also its gross characterizations and over-generalizations. I was so shocked and angered by this paper of ignorance and prejudice that I spent the next several weeks writing a scathing rebuttal to it. I never had a chance to submit my rebuttal to the powers that be, but I want to, Lord willing, dig it up sometime and post both the essence of the pastor’s paper and my response to it on this blog.
February 13th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
After I left BT, I and some of my collegues went on to become youth leaders at another church in Portland. This did not go over well with some of the youth leaders who stayed at BT, because they felt we had abondoned them and “stole” some of their kids. This made for a strained relationship and very little interaction between our youth groups. However, during my few years at this other church our kids were asking about going to Generation Unleashed (held at BT) and wondered why our youth group had not yet attended. So we decided to put our differences aside (after all it was about the kids and not us) and take a small group of kids to the event. One of the members on our team even offered to teach a daytime workshop, which was initially ok’d. This is where it gets interesting. The first night we where there the head youth pastor for the conference came up to us during worship and asked to speak with us. He took us to another room and told us that we were not welcome there and that the senior pastor himself wanted us to leave. He personally escorted us to the door. Our speakers name was removed from the brochure. We were blatenly ousted from the even for now reason and with no explination other then this mans pride. We thought he must be crazy. We did nothing wrong. There were thousands of kids there from all over the city and he singled us out just because he did not personally like us. After the night was over we did not go back there and later had a meeting with some of the BT leadership. We were fed all sorts of lies and told never to come back again. The level of arrogance, anger, and downright evil message these “leaders” were directing towards us broke my heart. I could not believe what I was hearing and seeing. I thought, “has Chrisitanity really come to this?”
So to answer your question, this was my first realization about pastors being more concerened about their image and position in the church, then about the truth of Christ having an effect on peoples lives. I was around 20 years old at the time this happened and learned my first lesson about politics in the church. Thank God I found the true Gospel of grace a few years later, which melted away any anger, bitterness or frustration I had towards these people. However, anyone who thinks that Pastors can’t be insecure humans, with weak and nimble minds and hearts like everyone else, is sadly mistaken. Always remember that no matter what our position is in life, before God we are one in the same……sinners saved by grace alone!
February 13th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
ex city bible slave, wow! what a sad story…
even if some of the kids in the youth group went with you to another church, if i understand things correctly, they had no right to see you to the door;
by pride do you mean that the youth pastor felt his pride hurt by the presence of some former youth members and leaders (wouldn’t he feel honored?)
or do you mean the sr. pastor’s pride? do you see the sin of territoriety and possessiveness here - a ‘we own the sheep’ kind of attitude?
February 13th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
sorry if this is OT, but with regard to the general issue of church culture I guess this is as good a place as any to say: There is a new (01/08) book out called Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. (Evidently a reworking of FV’s earlier book of the same title).
I haven’t read the book yet so I wouldn’t venture to endorse or critique it - just found out about it. But I was mildly shocked to see George Barna teaming with Frank Viola … although upon reflection it seems a reasonable progression from his (GB’s) Revolution book.
Available on amazon. FWIW, YMMV, etc.
February 13th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
ex-slave, I know exactly what you’re talking about. So atrocious.
David Mackin, the (bottom-line) reason the BT youth “leader” kicked out ex-slave and his pals is because he was seriously jealous of one of them. Isn’t that right, ex-slave? It was a “how dare you show your face around here now that I’m in the position of power” thing and, for sure, the senior pastor felt slighted by your friend, so for all of those reasons, the youth guy asserted his “power” and extradited you (with no visible regard for the impact on your youth group, sadly). Am I right?
Unfortunately, I know of many instances in which legalistic church-goers demonstrated loyalty to the Senior Pastor cult over loyalty to the truth or to me, loyalty to their image over loyalty to the truth (including the truth of the Great Commission).
I didn’t work with UP (the N Portland/inner city kids), but I worked quite a bit with homeless youth in the 90’s and we experienced the same thing ex-slave and his pals did at BT; the regulars didn’t want to give up their pews to the ruffians, or even “have to” see them, really. Even though they gave lip-service to reaching the lost, most of my close friends (who were primarily the wanna-be leaders) had never even had a conversation with an unbeliever! They were happy to “do plays” and “preach,” but not relate or converse with unbelievers. Those of us who were serious about lifestyle evanglism were at first praised, then tolerated, then ostracized.
In terms of my personal worst experience (with CBC-ers), I was a victim of a brutal crime and the elders’ position was that it was my fault, that I must have somehow had a crack in my “covering” and been on “a bad path” and otherwise made myself vulnerable to this trauma. I know now that was simply indicative of their theology, which is that people can insulate themselves from pain through their behavior, and that all pain can be traced to specific sin by the one experiencing the pain. David Mackin summed it up by his comment about Jay Adams (”nouthetic” counseling, isn’t that his own brand of counseling?) At any rate, my closest friends “took the party line,” decided I had done something to deserve the brutality I had experienced, judged me utterly, and ostracized me. In hindsight, I know their theology was fear-based, and they had to tell themselves I had done something to deserve what happened…otherwise, they would have had to believe that anything could happen to them, too, regardless of how strictly they adhered to their lists of do’s and don’ts. Know what I mean? It’s a horrible way to live. I feel completely sorry for them now. At the time, it devastated me, but only briefly, because ultimately it drove me into the arms of Jesus, where I discovered the truth about Him and Christianity. At the time, I tried very hard to believe I had “deserved it” because that felt better (i.e., safer) to me than believing that “it rains on the just and the unjust.” Now I know that is true, and that God is sovereign and it’s all good. While I don’t wish to ever re-live what happened to me, I praise God for the fact that it catapaulted me out of that wicked s ystem and into the truth. I believe I am much more at peace now with my theology (than the “walking-on-eggshells” of sticking to the lists of do’s and don’ts or at least hoping I wouldn’t get caught veering away from them), and also believe I am much more useful in this world since I am IN IT and involved in the messiness of believers and unbelievers (instead of isolated like that people in that system tend to be). What I know for sure is that I enjoy my Christianity more than I did in those days, and I have a grace-based marriage and family (rather than the performance-based one I was sure to have had I stayed in that system).
February 14th, 2008 at 5:47 am
This is unbelievable. How can anyone continue to justify working for a place like this? I get it if you want to attend there. Whatever. But if I had any real interest in ministry, I would be horrified by this type of behavior. It’s pretty unprofessional to say the least. Unbelievable!
Okay, now I’m getting angry. This is ridiculous. Someone should really start a blog or something and just list all the ridiculous behaviors of this church.
February 14th, 2008 at 6:24 am
[…] From Ex-City Bible Slave, After I left BT, I and some of my collegues went on to become youth leaders at another church in Portland. This did not go over well with some of the youth leaders who stayed at BT, because they felt we had abondoned them and “stole” some of their kids. This made for a strained relationship and very little interaction between our youth groups. […]
February 14th, 2008 at 6:53 am
My Little Pony wrote:
Thought maybe you’d enjoy this writing, from an ANONYMOUS author, MLP:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:10 am
David, the pride of this leader came from his insecurity that the people, who left, left because they did not like him (not because they felt God calling them somewhere else, which is what a normal person would think). Little Pony is right. This man was very jealous and wanted to flex his muscles against us, showing us how powerful he was now and that he had control. I don’t know why, but for some reason people in leadership at this place think they are really important. They act like their church is the only church that’s got it going on and working for CBC means you have really arrived in life. (Truth be told though, no one outside of their circle has any clue what or where CBC is. I went to Madison High School right down the street and 99% of the kids there had no clue about CBC).
As for as the “we own the sheep” kind of attitude, it has existed there for years and will continue to exist until this current regime is gone. Over the last 10 years there have been dozens of leaders who have wanted to leave CBC to get a high ranking position at another church or just start their own church somewhere else. Every time they go to the leadership for their support and blessing, the leadership always feeds them the same old line: “We don’t think it’s your time yet, you need some more waiting under our wings; be patient and we will let you know.” Well after another few years go by these people eventually get wise and leave. What happens next is a battle of pride and ego. A name smearing campaign begins to keep members of the church from leaving with this person, whoever they may be. CBC is so afraid of loosing sheep that the refuse to endorse or support anyone who wants to leave their four walls (unless it’s to go to another state - say Washington or Idaho).
Again though, I have to always turn this back to Christ. This kind of stuff happens for a reason. NO MAN SHOULD BE EXALTED IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ABOVE ANOTHER. We are all sinners saved by grace…not with different positions before Christ but with different callings.
February 14th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
“Son, what do you want to be when you grow up?”
“I used to want to be a firefighter, daddy, but I really want to grow up to be a yes man in the inner-circle of a self-important and distrusting Pastor!”
I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve heard this conversation.. it’s really all the rage, you know. Being a yes man.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:18 am
eleytheiria, what i am observing in the Yes Man culture, esp. how it relates to the Senior Pastor Cult is how pastor-kings will use money and status to buy loyalty. They will pay those closest to them, the next highest salary to thier own, and so it goes down from there. When all honor and status comes from the pastor-king, then all eyes are on how they can please him and get him to confer some status onto them; it is really worldly and insidious. It must feel like a real power high to surround oneself with so many clones, slaves, and talent that has been bought-off.
February 15th, 2008 at 11:20 am
I used to be a slave to this system…but thank God all mighty I am now a free man!
February 15th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
David,
“The pastor-king system creates a stifled social and intelletual envirronment”
You hit the nail on the head with that comment!
It is appalling to me to think about all the things that have been left out of the spiritual teaching at CBC. The constant focus on $$$ has left them sounding like a one song band. It has also left those who listen to it as spiritually ignorant as any peasant who heard the mass in latin all their life.
What a spiritual wasteland!