Is this a vision of things to come for City Bible:
BROOKLYN PARK, Minn. (AP) ― Dwindling donations to the Living Word Christian Center in Brooklyn Park have prompted its high-profile pastor, Mac Hammond, to put his private business jet on the market.
Church spokesman the Rev. Brian Sullivan says Living Word has also cut its hourlong Sunday morning television broadcast to 30 minutes to save money.
He says the church has fallen $40,000 to $70,000 short of its weekly budget in recent weeks. Sullivan says the church is adjusting its budget accordingly.
Sullivan says the church's problems could be a combination of the recession and the recent bad publicity about churches preaching the "Prosperity Gospel."
The prosperity churches are based on the idea that success in business or personal life is evidence of God's love.
Late last year, the U.S. Senate asked six churches to submit financial documents because of complaints about the lavish lifestyles of their ministers. Hammond was not among them.
Sullivan says the church is aggressively marketing the jet, and that the money raised from the sale would be reinvested in the ministry.
My guess is something similar happens to City Bible, except replace Jet with "Vancouver Campus" and "217 Campus".
(Thanks to BK for sending this in.)
In the story about the good Samaritan why did the clergyman pass by on the other side?
Because the man lying by the roadside had already been robbed!
This kind of stuff maks me sick. Do churches and pastors really need privte jets? What a f**king joke. Imagine how many poor, homeless, and hungry people they could be helping with the money that went into their stupid jet. Hey pastor Dick Hammond…if you want to fly somewhere by a ticket on United for a couple hundred bucks and give the rest of the hundreds of thousands of dollars away.
As you can tell I DESPISE the prosperity gospel and the idiot morons who preach and teach it.
Benny Hinn recently purchased, or is still raising money to buy, a jet and it has on the side: BH777. He said he was buying it from another ministry (whatever that means). He was offering his donors plaques with their names on them to be put inside of the jet and somehow he connected them with the donors prayer requests always being close to him whenever flying (unsure on the details on that last one).
Jesse Duplantis raised millions for his own jet, too.
There is a certain prosperity preacher/pastor who lives in the Seattle area who apparently flies a helicopter from one of his campuses to another on Sundays. I don’t know if he owns the helicopter or if he is just leasing it.
All is done under the guise of “more money, more ministry…”
FWIW — The pastor in Seattle rents the helicopter on the Sundays he needs it. It isn’t every week and he doesn’t own it. And I have no clue what it costs.
I’ve been visiting this blog for couple of months, though, I don’t agree with everything said here, however, it’s a great place to really dig in deep and think what really is the truth about well, everything. Because, I am a former PBC/BT/CBC/TCCer and was taught a lot of things being discussed here.
I don’t think he owns the helicopter… however, I never understood why that Red-haired preacher have to fly to get to the north campus from where he is. It’s probably only about 45min. driving distance on Sunday. If it is necessary for him to preach at his other campus, I think he should arrange the service time or something, instead of wasting that kind of money flying. That said, I’ve been told by a former staff of that church that they are always struggling with money. They couldn’t pay their staff, cut back on employment, etc. Makes me wonder who is controling thier budget or if there are any good business practice there.
Anyways, I always enjoy your posts, Brother Dave Mackin!
Keep up the good work and make me think more about the truth.
Benny Hinn?
Boss Hog?
I guess BH is really close to Brian K… Err, BK. Close enough. You know that by noon Cat’s usually pretty well sauced.
The worst part about this is that chances are he’ll come down hard on his congregation about this. It’s a hit to his ego, and so he’ll have to transfer the blow by transferring the blame to his congregation’s “lack of faith.” Really, when it comes down to it, in these churches the pastor is blameless. It all boils down to the congregations collective lack of faith.
What is the world coming to when prosperity preachers have to sell off their personal jets and fly in commercial airplanes like the rest of us nobodies? It’s a tragic, tragic day.
Doesn’t SPFD of CBC and his inner-circle pastors (like DL and his posse) fly on personal jets as well?
I don’t think they own the plane but they have some kind of connection with somebody???
I know they’ve flown to Seattle to attend a meeting with thier pilots then flew back few times as I recall…
-joe
hahaha… (sigh) details are not my specialty.
When you consider noon Cat’s time is 9AM Portland time, well, you Portlanders don’t have a prayer of catching Cat sober …
Bassist, Thanks for your words of kindness; they encourage me.
by the way, that church which you identified right away (so much for my lousy job at camouflaging!) hired me in the early nineties to teach in their newly developing college; when we visited the church, we visited one of the staffers who taught in the school; he and his wife were not experiencing, just like your staffer, financial prosperity as is preached from that pulpit; if this is a common thread in prosperity churches, I think it would show us the corruption of the whole system and that, at root, such preaching is mainly or only to benefit the man at the very top!
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the helicopter he uses does not belong to him. a church member owns it. I believe nowadays they do satellite broadcasts….
[Comment ID #31401 Will Be Quoted Here]
from federal way to south Everett is an hour drive, you have to be pushing the pedal reaaaaally hard to do it in 45 minutes.
Is it still really that much quicker to take a helicopter? Door to door it probably saves you what a half-an-hour? Is half-an-hour of time really worth the cost of of a helicopter. My guess, not so much. But if you’re dumb enough to give your pastor money so he can fly in a helicopter, then you deserve to be poor.
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never said i was poor. i dont know who pays for the helicopter. and like i said, nowadays they dont use the helicopter much, most of the time they use satelite, or have two preachers.
didn’t mean to imply you were poor. just not feeling sympathetic for people who are taken advantage of by prosperity preachers.
and i guess i was right. in the end, it wasn’t cost-effective to have a helicopter. who knew?
[Comment ID #31422 Will Be Quoted Here]
maybe not, but we all try things, and learn. last thing i am is taken advantage of. and another thing, he doesnt take a salary from the church any longer, he has enough book sales….
[Comment ID #31423 Will Be Quoted Here]
Who cares if he doesn’t take a salary from the church. If he uses church money to pay for anything of luxury he’s corrupt. Do you really thing Jesus would have been flying in helicopters and private jets if he were alive today? Hell no! He would be pedaling a bike at the most and saving souls down on skid row. These pastors are a joke. Cat is right, if you give your money to one of these bafoons you deserve whatever financial hardship you got. No sympathy here.
Cat, I love your characterization, ~ “If people are stupid enough to fund a helicopter for their pastor, they deserve to be poor” – I’m going to use that when I write up something against the insipid prosperity racket; thanks!
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really dont think jesus would be pedaling a bike. maybe he wouldnt be flying a private jet or helicopter, but definitely wouldnt be pedaling a bike.
Now you are just being silly. You are just arguing for arguments sake. Just making a point my friend. And there’s no maybe about it. Jesus would not be using a private jet to minister to poor people. The thought of it makes me cringe.
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ur the one that started with the bike buddy. and i agree maybe jesus wouldnt use a private jet to minister…but im sure he would use the most efficient and effective way available…whether its a jet, helicopter, car, boat…..
And, pray tell, why not?? (Offended look)
1. According to the British Heart Foundation, cycling at least 20 miles per week reduces the risk of coronary heart disease to less than half that for non-cyclists.
2. Cycling burns calories, and even at a gentle 12 mph on a flat road uses 450 cal per hour.
3. Cycling reduces stress.
4. Cycling raises the speed of your metabolism for hours afterwards, so your body continues to burn calories even after exercise.
5. Through the lungs, cycling pushs as much oxygen into the body as possible, as well as into the heart, which then beats faster to transport this oxygen around your body. A strong heart and powerful lungs form the basis of general fitness.
6. Muscles become trimmer and more toned.
7. Exercising releases endorphins into your blood – which create a feeling of contentment and euphoria, also helping to reduce stress.
8. Cycling does not pollute the environment like flying a helicopter or driving an automobile does.
(This last one’s for Cat)
9. Being seen it tights, with your leg muscles a-bulging, is a great chick magnet!
What female could resist your charms when you cruise by her on a steed like this?
-joebib
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do you ride a bike everywhere you go joebib? if you dont why should jesus…
Serj –
In answer to your question — assuming it is serious — I will say that I am striving to go as *cage* free as possible, and am currently up to 100+ miles per week on my trusty, non-polluting steed.
The main reason I use our car is for buying groceries, and this is forced upon me only due to the difficulty in finding — and attaching — a rack large enough to carry said groceries home.
Furthermore, even if I could find a large enough rack, it would still be problematic (what with all that extra weight) inasmuch as I probably wouldn’t be able to effectively evade the redneck *cagers* in their broken down pick-ups — duly emblazoned with Confederate Flags — who would inevitably choose me for automobile target practice.
It seems some people just can’t appreciate seeing a man dressed in bright — some would say gayish — colors and tights. Go figure.
(*Cage is a term used by elitist-cycling-snob-types when referring to automobiles. Drivers are similarly referred to as cagers)
-joe
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thats good that you bike 100+ miles a week, rather impressive. I do about 10km a day.
so you honestly believe biking is an efficient mode of transportation? for me to get to the nearest store from where i live would take about 30 minutes on bike, 5 on a car…
yes biking is good, and theres nothing wrong with the tight outfits, but you seriously cant be saying that it is the most efficient mode of transport? around town fine, what about from seattle to everett?
Well, according to one web site, Jesus would ride a Harley … cool Easy Rider image …
Or perhaps He’d drive one of these vehicles.
Don’t forget What Would Jesus Drive, a wonderful site for eco-theological debate.
‘Scrupe
As I sit here in Northern California, glued to my T.V. set watching the brave cyclists in the Amgen Tour of California pedal up to 135 miles per day as they endure the relentless winds and rain — duly attended by our stud-muffin Governor, Mr. Schwarzenegger, BTW — I laugh at your mention of the wimpy (if I remember correctly) 20-25ish miles from Everett to Seattle.
Meh…child’s play.
-joe
This is so clearly a man’s argument. Jesus walked everywhere. You boys and your fancy toys.
I hope Pam gives you both barrels for that “man’s argument” remark.
It’s sexist and divisive. 
Wow….this discussion got way off base….but I will for once agree with Joebib….I would much rather bike then drive.
Me too! It’s all done with a wink and a smile.
Hmm.. what method of transportation would Jesus use? It’s a question right up there with all of the important questions an inquiring mind must ask itself in the course of life, like “What sports team would King David have supported?” and “Is it against the Mosaic Law to eat Lucky Charms?”
Lucky Charms make your poo green. Sounds like black magic to me. BAD!
Yessss! I knew we would eventually agree on something, ex-city-slave.
In case anyone is interested in going car-free, I can help. This Italian beauty, a Colnago, can be had fully loaded for only $7,300 — plus change.
Or, this Trek Madone just like Lance rode, for a measly $8,200.
And, for those expecting an especially generous tax-return this year, this sweet little Italian number, by Bianchi, for just under $10,000.
Just let me know. I know a guy who knows a guy…
-joe
http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/22/panasonics-titanium-flat-road-eb-electric-bicycle-is-almost-che/
Thanks for posting that bike, serj. I want one!
-joe
I was thinking about the whole issue with pastors flying first class or business class while traveling in airplanes.
The thought i came to is that an average person travels via airplane maybe once a year. some even less than that.
A lot of pastors, especially those of big churches fly a lot more than once per year, some even once a month. So when you’re traveling once a year, sitting in a coach seat for 3 hours isn’t that bad, you don’t even notice it being uncomfortable. However when you fly a lot, being in coach all the time can get very tiresome, especially if you’re doing long flights. Not just for pastors, anyone. Being comfortable can have a huge effect on you, later on, whether you’re a preacher going to preach to a congregation, or a business man going to do a presentation. Its not really a question of luxury anymore.
I’m sure some of you might have different opinions, I’m just sharing my thoughts. But put yourself in the shoes of the pastors who do have to fly a lot, they need, rest, and comfort as much as we all do….why shouldn’t they have it?
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I’m sorry, but I disagree with your logic completely. And I highly doubt that the average American flies only once a year. Most of the people I know would probably average flying once every two months at least. It’s called business travel. And most companies don’t fork over the big bucks for their employees to fly anything but budget low-class coach, so if they want to fly better and nobler, it comes out of their own pocket.
I need rest and comfort just as much as the next guy, but I don’t fly first class because it’s simply not worth the extra money. When the money comes from your own pocket, it hurts a lot more. And that’s the point. These pastor’s are willing to fork over the money to fly first class because it’s NOT THEIR MONEY they’re forking over. And THAT’S the problem people have with it. If you’re a non-profit organization which doesn’t have to pay taxes and relies on other people’s charity to exist, you really shouldn’t be flying first class or giving yourself a bunch of extra little perks. That’s money people worked hard for and they gave it to you trusting that it was going to the building of the local church, assistance to the poor, etc.
I know what Cat said and agree with him completely that if you’re enough of a sucker to give your money to these wolves then you deserve what you get, but I still think it’s wrong for these pastor’s to be able to get away with so much.
Serj,
Real world – said pastor flying all the time, earns at least $100K/yr., paid for by families who don’t make half as much – perhaps $30K-$50K/yr. – they don’t have the church general fund at their disposal like the pastor does – his airfare is paid from the church general fund as a ministry expense, not from his salary …
More real world – I can fly coach from ORD to SEA for $330 or $1530 first class. Using your once a month example, the difference in total airfare is $14,400 per year – or the ANNUAL TITHE of 3 to 5 families … is the comfort of a pastors tushie really worth $14,400 per year?
In terms of comfort, coach is not that bad – I flew from SEA to ORD every other weekend for a year before my wife and I were married, and learned that comfort is more a state of mind than anything else.
either way i was just thinking out loud….
honestly i know an evangelist, who travels by plane at least once a week, if not two or three times, and alot of times its international flights. I would feel bad for him if he had to do all that flying in coach. I flew 8 hours in a coach seat, it wasnt too bad, but not something i would want to do every week.
and eleytheria, if you get out of the business world, im still pretty sure the average american person flies maybe once a year. the average american doesnt do business trips, they work regular local jobs.
This stuff disgusts me. Why do pastors need private jets? I dont whats worse these preachers or the gullible Christians who believe them and give them money.
So should we change the meaning of “WWJD?” to “What would Jesus drive?”
The only justifiable reason for private jets is when it makes more economical and logistical sense to have it than fly commercial. Those are 2 very big criteria, and I can’t imagine most pastors giving a good argument for why private jets are cheaper. The latter argument is reasonable if you and the employees of your “company” are flying often enough at regular intervals that commercial airlines don’t offer enough opportunities for travel. Intel has a fleet of private jets at local airfields at their major offices in Oregon and California. Their employees can use the jets daily and expense the cost to their projects as part of doing business. That makes both economical and business sense for the company. Pastors flying to conferences on private jets for their comfort is neither economical or logistically necessary.
http://www.whatwouldjesusdrive.org/
Norcal, joebib. You’re close by. Now that’s just too close to home.
Exactly! And I might add that Intel is a major corporation that generates billions of dollars in sales per year. They provide an actual product to consumers who get something of quality in exchange for the hard earned dollars they fork over. Their employees deserve to be flown around on private jets because they help produce the products that allow the company to afford such lavish things.
However, churches are 501(3)(c) non-profit organizations that survive off the generous donations of people who don’t get any sort of product in return. Their employees do not deserve the same luxury of a “company” jet because they don’t do anything to generate such profits…well unless you consider guilting an 82 year old grandma out of her life savings work?
Again I stress that the issue for me is not about the money or the jets. God calls people to be rich all the time. The issue is using other peoples money to become rich and live a lavish life. God does not call people to do that. If someone wants to be rich they should not choose pastoring as their profession…plain and simple.
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You’re not saying you want me to score you one o’ those Italian beauties, are you? I happen to have it on good authority that former pbc prez’s don’t reside anywhere near that income bracket, so fuggetaboutit!
-joebibstudent
P.S. Neither do bible students
No, did I read your comment incorrectly? I thought you said you were from NorCal. That’s all. I thought maybe we’re close by.
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some of them do work just as hard as some of the people at intel. ministry is not always easy work. alot of ministers probably work harder and work more than the average person working at intel…and the work that they do has eternal effects, whereas the work intel does is obsolete in less than 10 years…
Using other people to get rich is wrong….but that doesnt mean that ministers dont deserve a nice life, even with luxury.
Of course they should have a nice life….that’s not what I was saying. I’m saying they don’t deserve to be rich on OTHER PEOPLES MONEY.
And I do know what kind of work ministers do…I was a youth pastor for 2 years and on full-time staff of a church plant for another 3. It was more work then I’ve ever had in my life, and I went to law school. But again, your missing the point. I stopped doing ministry because I wasn’t making enough money. I want to have wealth, it’s a huge motivating factor for me in my career. I want my kids to never have to struggle the way my wife and I did growing up. We both come from very poor families. But I’m sorry man, using the church to become rich….no matter what anyone says, it’s just wrong.
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I know, prez, I was just joking. Sometimes my humor is lost on people with normal minds.
Yes, I live in Northern California, just outside Sacramento.
-joebib
joe,
It was definitely lost, but probably not because of my normal mind. I’m in the middle of tax season and so I think I really don’t know what I think! My mind is just a jumble of numbers floating around pinging off each other! Want me to do your taxes!!! Just kidding. Right outside of Sac? North, South, East or West? I live about 30 minutes north.
prez
East of Sac, in Antelope.
So, up near Yuba City/Marysville?
-joe
As far as business travel goes on my last trip to France I sat by a business traveler who worked in L.A. and had to fly to France often for her company. We were squeezed in together in coach. I asked why -she said her company really watched their expenses–she was one of the accountants so she should know.
Walmart executives have to share hotel rooms to cut costs and other people live off expense accounts while traveling.
Since when did being a pastor become aquainted with being a CEO? Or was there a new book written?
The ‘Prosperity Driven Church’ perhaps.
I may have missed something or been out of the loop on this thread but
what church are you helicopter enthusiasts discussing. Please tell -if they
can fly it we can hear about it.
Man you haven’t lived till you had to sit in coach while your pastor
sits up in 1st class with the really important people.
Oh yea –we sat in coach and he sat with his ‘good friend’
Larry Craig–tappin away. Ah yes – I remember it well. In fact we all
do.
Oh right -you mean the ministry trip we all helped pay for.
If you’re going to talk private jets and pastors having to ‘get of of town’
every week -you’ve got to talk having your own condo in Washington D.C.
on C Street to go along with it. Now where we be without it- that is
a non-profit residence your congregation gets to pay for.
Singing the song from Chicago — give em the old Razzle Dazzle
come on and dazzle em.
Then we won’t see the strings move -right boys?
[Comment ID #31537 Will Be Quoted Here]The same Larry Craig of airport bathroom fame? Wow, I’d be soooo proud to be his friend…do they both know Ted Haggard also? The more you find out about these ‘leadership’ types, the more Matthew 23:10 rings true. “And do not be called leaders, for One is your leader, that is Christ.” (NASB)
Now hold on just a sec there, whatHEsaid! You’re not implying we should actually start doing what the Bible commands us to do, are you???
Just imagine the ramifications.
-joe
I fly several times a month, sometimes even weekly, for work. My coworker traveled so much last year he got 6 free flights. The only times we do business or first class is when we get bumped up there, which is very rare.
Don’t tell me it’s about the “comfort” of someone who has to travel a lot. It’s about economics. If I and my fellow business travelers can handle riding in the back of the bus with all the unwashed masses to keep costs down, so can the pastor whose mission it is to reach those people.
While reading some local news (Seattle Times) I was struck by the similarities between the featured non-profit, and the whole “employed by the church” experience in general (…three former employees testified before a judge that she would fly into rages, verbally abuse them and, on occasion, throw things…).
The local paper ran a story on the Seattle marathon and how only about 1% of the proceeds ends up going to charity. So the way it works is all the peons are working their butts off and raising as much money as possible, while dealing with controlling and domineering bosses who all seem to be using the charity for personal gain. But at least 1% is going to charity right? That’s better than 0% right?
The difference between the Seattle Marathon and just about every church I’ve been to? Seems like these people can talk about, and maybe even find a solution to, their problems (even in a public venue) without being told they’re going to hell or that they’re ruining the public’s perception of marathons.
Meanwhile, they’re starting to lose sponsorship and the exposure is causing some internal house-cleaning. A good thing in my opinion.
Shine a light on people and they tend to start behaving better.
*cough* Senate Investigations *cough*
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Yes, we all do.
[Comment ID #31538 Will Be Quoted Here]
Our theory is this is why they stay in Boise even though it’s obvious by their behavior that they don’t really WANT to be pastors of a church. they’d rather be full time in DC. rubbing shoulders on flights to DC with good friend Mr Craig. But if they sold the church, who would fund the condo??
What a dilemma for them. Life is so hard suffering for the Lord.
That’s how I feel too. Our own CEO, doesn’t get to fly first class, because the board considers it an ineffecient use of funds.
Brian said
Time will tell. The problem is they feel they are entitled to all the riches according to their faith doctrine. Will they really change or just become less publically noticeable? ie if they can stay under the radar they can keep at least one of their vacation homes.
You said it De-Tox –who’s gonna know–at least for now.
Wait -whats that I hear – an IRS auditer coming to town and flying coach.
Can you spell whistleblowers? Lets get cleaning -you’re all making us look bad.
There are real Christians embedded in these organizations –for instance an employee of Kenneth Copeland’s recently stepped forward. He resigned in
2005 when he saw they were co mingling funds –that is using ministry dollars
to invest in outside personal investments like cattle and oil.
Do you leaders think we’ve all checked our integrity in at the door?
ts rarely outsiders who call down the house of cards-
but a true insider.
Remember Sheron Watkins & Enron?
For anyone interested in a great organization that was featured on 20/20 and Niteline, check out ministrywatch.com
This guy is doing a great job of lifting the sheets on these crooks.
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Sorry joebib, I just had one of those anabaptist moments….I do try to keep them under control, but sometimes they just pop out!
Do you know of any medications that would help?
Sure do! Just keep reading this blog! It’s better than Valium.
You know, how the Scriptures supposedly aren’t for today, they aren’t to be taken literally, they don’t really mean what they clearly say, we’re under grace, that’s from the OT, we’re-not-bitter-we’re-just-concerned, I’m-not-judging-but-in-fact-you’re-judging-me, and so on?
Don’t forget one of these next time you’re at the C-BUS-C online store…
(Voiceover)
Introducing…the Amazing New “RONCO Obscure-Bible-Verse Chopper”!! Takes those pesky Bible verses and gets rid of ‘em in a jiffy! Before you know it, you, too, will be nudge-nudging, wink-winking and chop-chopping your way through the Bible! It’s fun! It’s easy! No fuss! No muss! Find a verse that convicts you? That’s OK! One that doesn’t agree with your own opinion? Don’t worry! Here’s how: just look for another verse that doesn’t make any sense to you…turn the dial…push the button…chop-chop! chop-chop! And…PRESTO!…they’re gone!! You’ll never have to obey the Bible ever again, we promise!! And, hey! Moms and Dads! Why not buy a couple? Kids love em, too!!
(Lemme save y’all the trouble…I’ll supply of few of ‘em to getcha started:)
Selling one’s daughter: Exodus 21:7
Sabbath breaking: Exodus 35:2
Touching swine’s skin: Leviticus 11:7-8
Eating shellfish: Leviticus 11:12
Male/Female uncleanness: Leviticus 15:1-33
Wearing mixed-fabric clothing: Leviticus 19:19
Owning slaves: Leviticus 25:44
Head-coverings for women: 1 Corinthians 11:5-6
-joe
Wow! What’s the price of that RONCO gizmo? I’m really tempted. (I can resist anything but temptation!)
Oh, I almost forgot, thanks for the handy list of scriptures that need ‘re-evaluation’. The one that is short circiting my cerebral processes isn’t on your list! Jeremiah 19:5….how can everything be predestined if some things never enter God’s mind???? Can you RONCO that one for me, I’ll place my order soon.
[Comment ID #31571 Will Be Quoted Here]
…and sporting a tired navy blue suit and battered brief case. IRS employees certainly aren’t in it for the riches now are they?
unlike some preachers we know!
U got that right De-Tox. Did they know there is a handy
1 -800 number to report those suspected of IRS tax abuse- & fraud
that includes 503-C organization? Well we do.
Keep hiding behind the 503-C wall for now boys –who knows how much
longer till you ruin it for those who are truly the Lord’s work.
Lets get into dedicated offerings for a moment. Say raising money to help victims of lets say ‘Hurricane Katrina’ and then suddenly changing it in a staff meeting. Hey no problem –we really felt we wanted to help those people last
week but this week well its a new sound sytem. We’ll send em ‘some’ money
down the road -that is if they ever make it to Boise. Right.
If only I was kidding about this. Now where is that phone number again?
What you mean you’re not covering for them any more. Now where is
that John Bevere book when I need it!
One can be had for a case of cheap beer, a 12-pack of Henry’s, or a short round at the local microbrewery.
Well, get ready for a wait cuz they’re on backorder. I understand it has to do with some sort of re-labeling problem, due to the massive rivets used.
I’ve also heard there’s some sort of in-house squabbling goin on in regard to precisely which name to put on them. Apparently, they can’t decide whether to call it the “CATCO-Chopper,” the “CBCCO-Chopper,” or simply the “__________-Chopper,” where you get to fill in your own name upon arrival…FICM, for instance.
Royalties are a big deal, you know.
-joe
Now you are scaring me, Joebib. In an online group I frequented back in 2002, they were discussing dogma, in which someone asked about ‘newer dogma’. I wrote:
This is the kind of thing that happens from me hanging out with these “Holy Ghost” guys and gals too much.
I guess Mom was right after all. She always used to say:
-joe
Well then, you’re gonna need a bigger belt.
‘Scrupe
[Comment ID #31391 Will Be Quoted Here]
I welcome any and all emails about the WORD of FAITH doctrine (and the prosperity doctrine, name it and claim it). My email is: jimlsmith@catt.com or visit our website at http://www.battlefieldchurchoffaith.org.
Google: FALSE TEACHING WORD OF FAITH (by Jim Smith) it’s a FREE book EXPOSING what I learned as a licensed and ordained Pastor inside their CAMP!!! It’s crap…excuse my french…not really french and I beg forgiveness if that is considered a sware word. I have been pastoring for 8 years and my desire is to help those that have fallen between the cracks of that false teaching…if you are not healed…because you lack faith…how destruction that belief is!!! God heals everybody…NO WAY…not biblical!! I am not tearing down these men and those ministries but the Apostle Paul said that we are responsible for exposing FALSE DOCTRINE. I have hate mail and death threats about this book…but bottom line is…THE BELIEVE CHRIST WAS RIPPED OFF THE CROSS AND DRAGGED INTO HELL, THERE HE WAS TORTURED FOR 3 DAYS AND THEN DIED SPIRITUALLY. HE WAS THEN BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY ON THE BURNING SIDE OF HELL…THE CORE BELEIF OF WORD OF FAITH IS NOT HEALING AND PROSPERITY… BUT DEEPER THEN THAT “THE JESUS DIED SPIRITUALLY DOCTRINE.” And that ladies and gentlemen is blasphamy!!! I welcome your emails or call our ministry at 706-YES-PRAY (706-937-7729). All of our tapes and CD’s (and books)…all items….ARE FREE!!! God bless… Pastor Jim Smith
who does he heal then? and how does he decide who to heal?
[Comment ID #31632 Will Be Quoted Here]
It’s a lot like the children’s game “duck, duck, goose” only you use the words “cursed” and “anointed” instead. Also, you get bonus points for tithing.
Seriously, though, the idea that everyone will be healed and whole in this life is indefensible in the Scripture and anyone who says otherwise is being willfully blind or is trying to sell you something.
If complete health was attainable in this life why would Paul say,
Paul isn’t referring to “health & wealth”, he’s referring to the Resurrection which he details in 1 Corinthians 15.
Also, if I’m able to attain perfect health in this life, then wouldn’t it follow that I shouldn’t have to die? Isn’t death the product of disease and decay of our mortal sinful bodies?
Another blog I frequent recently tackled Wendell’s so-called doctrine on healing, and it’s worth a read: http://www.doctrinetalk.com/?p=84
Yeah, word of faith doctrine is a joke.
ex:
I assume since you quoted someone that you agree with what he is saying. Do you believe that the Brownsville Revival was a counterfeit revival and why.
Prez
SPFD must be pissed he didn’t make the list and Larry Huch did.
Wow …. that doctrine ignores a lot of scripture … like the image of Jesus crushing the head of the serpent beneath his foot … scripture says the serpent will strike at his heel (IIRC) but doesn’t actually say that the serpent will put the bite on him …
[Comment ID #31498 Will Be Quoted Here]
my sentiments exactly. It is a bit coincidental that the types of pastors who preach a word of faith doctrine are also the types who constantly ask for money. If it were just about healing and being victorious Christians then the WOF doctrine may carry a little more plausibility. But it’s not. It’s about the money.
the Christians that keep enabling this type of teaching by continually pouring their money into the system are the ones to aim our frustration toward even though we can’t help but continue to be angry with the leaders who are taking advantage of them. If you say anything about it you are considered negative and a malicious gossip who is trying to undermine God’s Work. The thing is if we are asking questions — or what’s more if those who still go to these churches or support these parachurch ministries ask questions about where the money is going — a straight answer may actually shut us all up.
But they don’t answer. They probably just discuss our lack of faith amongst themselves. If they’d use that same energy to bite the bullet and answer the questions, at least everyone would concede that they are trying. Instead, their silence is perceived as arrogance and everyone’s suspicions are confirmed. Are they just stupid. Or scared?
If they are scared, then come clean and ‘fess up. Apologize. Clean slate. Start new yet with a new resolve to be above board and honest. No more fleecing the flock.
I guess in order to do that they’d have to change their posh livestyles. So that must be the rub. Why is the bottom line always money?
[Comment ID #31636 Will Be Quoted Here]
I lived the Brownsville Revival. I was at the very first Sunday night service when Paster Frank preached his message after he had gotten back from Toronto. I went down front with everyone else and was slain in the spirit. I spent hours on the ground, crying, laughing, moaning, etc. Three months of that, week after week, night after night, I was on a true spiritual high. I felt so holy (and let everyone around me know it). However, none of it stuck. A few years later I was still the same person, doing the same old things. I don’t believe it was a complete sham, as a lot of peolpe got saved and a lot of hearts were changed. I just believe it was a massive hype machine that started out genuine and turned into another ploy to suck people into doing things the church wanted them to do. Any chance the WOF preachers get to manipulate and mind control people into giving money and conforming to their way, they will use it. And that my friend is counterfeit.
[Comment ID #31649 Will Be Quoted Here]
Well said.
Because of greed. Money is the root of all evil. The bad guys kill for it, the good guys lie, cheat, and steal for it. Either way we all loose.
de-tox asks: Why is the bottom line always money?
(ex-city responds: Because of greed. Money is the root of all evil…)
de-tox, I don’t know if you’re question was a rhetorical one or not. But on the assumption that it was not completely rhetorical, I would like to submit this response. Please understand that I mean no insult to your intelligence when I say this:
Money is the common denominator in all peoples of the world that has the power to enable people to:
…buy houses, lands and their favorite toys, cars and possessions; help them get into places of power; purchase more sex than a man would know what to do with; feel safe and secure; pay to get into the Ivy League schools; hire people to do what you want them to do both in the ministry and outside of the ministry;
…attract someone to date or marry you; enable them to buy into whatever Designer Image is in their social strata (maintain good self-image); start businesses that will make even more money; pay for medical services or insure themselves so that they don’t have to pay for insurance; provide for a comfortable retirment instead of being neglected by one’s kids or forced into a nursing home;
…”do more” for the kingdom of God); provide more food, clothing and shelter for the poor; win notoriety and fame; publish their ideas; marry into a richer class of society; bribe a judge or a police officer to get out of jail; hire the “best” lawyers to protect one’s assets; pay for the college education of one’s children and grandchildren; buy investment properties and vacation houses; purchase homes for one’s children when they can’t afford them;
…follow their unique passions; increase their dreams and fantasies; and feed their addictions…
We all know we have to have money to survive (even before the pastors with dollar-sign eyes told us) so I guess it’s a matter of keeping it from becoming a vice. Being human and in this world, I suppose we are all prone to addictive behavior in some form or another, so I guess the struggle will forever be to stay moderate in the money area. For certain people money is a drug as deadly as meth. I may not struggle with the money thing simply because I’ve never had huge sums of it (dang.) Who knows what’s lurking underneath so I hope if I ever do get lots of it I don’t become greedy and dishonest, feeling free to take money from the less fortunate and gullible amongst us.
So, I guess what I’m mulling over here is the problem isn’t the money so much as it’s what certain Christian leaders do with it once they have it–along with their unwillingness to give it back once they’ve acknowledged that it was received in an immoral manner. More than any other teaching, the WOF doctrine blurs the lines about money and directly links the strength of your faith to your bank account. This also makes it harder for the leaders to acknowledge they are doing wrong because it would also be an admission that they don’t have great faith.
THE LOVE OF money is the root of all evil (Acts 17:11).
Money is an inanimate object, neither good nor evil in and of itself … but when men revere it like a god (mammon), then those men have done evil …
Doh! Cited the wrong scripture. If I’d ever attended CBC, I’m sure I would not have made that mistake.
It’s:
David said:
I always like your input David. We must have been typing at the same time so I didn’t see your post before I posted. It was sort of rhetorical in a musing way. Since there’s nothing really new under the sun, we all have similar needs for the same kind of currency then. In that case, it’s especially cunning to prey upon those who have less than we do. The snake oil salesman syndrom!
[Comment ID #31655 Will Be Quoted Here]
Or you wouldn’t be able to admit the mistake if you made one (have to be an example — a perfect leader so the flock will aim their sights higher to perfection too mind you)!
Guess there’s a reason there’s such a strong warning for us in the Bible about the love of money. The Lord saw it all coming and what we’d do to one another. . .
de-tox wrote: More than any other teaching, the WOF doctrine blurs the lines about money and directly links the strength of your faith to your bank account. This also makes it harder for the leaders to acknowledge they are doing wrong because it would also be an admission that they don’t have great faith.
de-tox, great point! in my view, you have pin-pointed the basic rub in terms of how pastor/leaders use the Bible to legitimize their high incomes and lavish lifestyles: by claiming that wealth is God’s reward for the righteous and his curse upon the wicked (Deut. 27-28), they sound “biblical” to the average Christian.
They ignore the fact, however, that Dt 27-28 (re-enforced by the books of Proverbs, Malachi, etc.) is only one tradition in the OT and that many of the parts in the books of Job, Psalms, Eccl, and parts of Jeremiah and even Ruth (in correcting Dt’s judgments – albeit limited to the “tenth generation?” – upon the Moabites, Dt. 23:3) come against its narrow-minded and overly-simplistic theology.
Job, etc. do this by pointing out that God does NOT always reward the righteous materially here on earth and he does allow the wicked to prosper (Psalm 73:3; Jer 5:28; 12:1, etc.). The authors of these books were willing to ask the question, “Why?” These inspired authors were probably not the priests who wrote in support of the Temple (Dt. 12:21; 14:23) and its social/priestly hierarchies and political economies.
Instead, they were the prophets, reformers and intellectuals (some call them “sages”) of their times who were willing to question what was handed down to them as “the word of God that never changes.” They questioned these traditions that were based in Dt. 27-28 by being honest and open with their observations and experiences of the inconsistencies and anomalies of life itself.
If you’re interested in finding out more about this essential distinction in OT theology, one which I find most Christians are missing, I recommend that you find a good Bible dictionary and look up the Wisdom Movement or see the introductions to the theologies of the books I just mentioned.
[Comment ID #31650 Will Be Quoted Here]
ex: I’m not talking about the Toronto or Portland “Renewal,” cuz I was there during this time as well. I’m asking specifically about Brownsville, if you were there. To me, these were two totally different “revivals.” One focused on saving the lost and one focused on “renewing” Christians. My family all went to Brownsville and so I have a little bit more knowledge of Brownsville then I do of Toronto. But everything that I read and heard of Brownsville was that it was a genuine revival; turning people’s hearts away from sin and to God. Bringing the lost to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Is this not a genuine revival?
its funny how people pray for revival, and pray and pray, and then something happens, and then we say, “oh that wasnt real”, or “that wasnt genuine”.
I wonder how many times people rejected a move of God because it didn’t line up right in their mind of how they thought i should have been…
[Comment ID #31662 Will Be Quoted Here]
I don’t think it’s “funny” because I think people deep down have a pretty good idea of what genuine “revival” should look like.
Having been part of the Renewal period at CBC, and having an inside view of the stuff going on at that time, I can say I came away from that situation not feeling like I had experienced personal renewal, revival, or anything else very positive. If anything, I felt disillusioned by the whole mess. Driving wooden stakes in the ground and praying against demons over the city was just downright superstitious in my humble opinion. When they brought back rocks from Mt. Tabor in a crude effort to evoke the same “spirit” of Revival, it became downright idolatry. People rushing the stage to touch rocks was the last straw for me. I vividly remember telling God that I didn’t want to touch rocks, I wanted Him to touch me. A few weeks later, I was gone from there for good and I began a journey where I was healed from all my issues caused by years of those types of hyper-spiritual shenanigans. (On a side note, I saw the movie Borat and the part that bothered me the most was the scene where he attends a renewal-style church meeting. That made me more uncomfortable and genuinely embarrassed than watching two naked men wrestle. That’s sayin’ somethin’!)
So, yes, I do get rather skeptical and even cynical when people make references to key events labeled as revivals or renewals, because I judge them by their fruit. A lot of people laughed, cried, and rolled around on the floor but was Portland affected by the Gospel?
Serj, what should revival look like? Don’t you think it should include, at the very least, an influx of new believers? I can’t judge Brownsville or Toronto because I wasn’t there, but Portland’s (CBC especially) period of renewal was more hype than substance. I think there was an opportunity for real revival at some point, but I think the Church squandered it by focusing on themselves rather than focusing on those who have yet to believe.
Same here. I actually couldn’t watch it. After about three minutes, when I realized where he was going, I just fast forwarded through the rest of that scene.
funny was the wrong word to use, i mean to say “interesting”
not sure what a revival should look like, i dont think there is a set of rules….ther should be an influx of new believers though…what you describe happening in Portland sounds strange (the rocks and stuff…)
EXACTLY. Great points FICM. This is all I’m saying as well. PBCPrez and SERJ are all over my jock. You sure you all still don’t go to CBC and come on this thing as their private investigators to attack those calling them out? Cause if so…bring it on baby!
Wasn’t there dog. Whether that was counterfiet or not, who the hell knows? Only God can judge the truth of that. The human in me can only judge the results. Doesn’t appear that America is a much more spiritual country now then from before it began…so hard to say it was completely genuine. But if you was there and saw all the people turning to Christ…Amen to that.
no i dont goto cbc…never did. I just find this blog amusing sometimes….
[Comment ID #31666 Will Be Quoted Here]
Simmer down my friend. I’m definitely not all over your jock! Just making a point that I had family who were there and were changed by what happened that’s all. And no I live in norcal. I went there for my college and then left. Portland didn’t like me very much, I got in three car accidents while I was there-totaling two of the cars. Haven’t ever gotten in a wreck here in beautiful Cali, although I don’t know if that means anything or not.
Toronto, Brownsville, et al …
I don’t get it – if only because of seemingly contradictory scriptures … supposedly, God shows up at a church and revival breaks out … people flock to it from all over to get the ‘anointing’ for themselves or to bring it back to their home church …
Yet we have several scriptures (which most believers hold to be authoritative / infallible) which state emphatically that God does NOT live in (abide) in temples made by men (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24, Matthew 23:38) … rather, the Holy Spirit has since Pentecost made his home in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16, 1 Corinthians 6:19, etc.)
So what is with the notion that we have to get in the car and jet across the country to meet God in some building? Or the notion that He is present in Toronto, Brownsville or Pensacola but not in Tigard?
For those who believe in building/location based revival, I have yet to see a convincing argument made from scripture. Rather, all such claims of localized revival seem to rely on manifestations, hype and crowd frenzy. Is there any biblical basis for seeking the anointing / impartation from men? And if we reduced that mindset to its most direct form, i.e., “I’m going to Brownsville Assembly to get God’s anointing from Billy Burke”, does it begin to sound just a wee bit insane (if not downright un-Biblical)?
Note, the linked web site to Brownsville Revival, advertises an Easter Egg Hunt for “over 10,000 eggs” with prizes, etc. Now IF they were truly revived, don’tcha think they would repent of that old pagan fertility celebration?
‘Scrupe
I don’t get it either Scrupe. If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present, why do we have to go find God? Go where He is? I believe His presence is everywhere, even when I’m living in sin, God is in my midst. Why? Because of Jesus Christ! His blood has made me so clean that even in my raged sinful ways, God looks at me through the lens of Christ and see’s His perfection. Christ not only died in my place, but He lived in it too. People have to accept, God’s acceptance of them…then all this running all over the country and world to “find God” will stop.
‘Scrupe, Thanks for sharing your excellent comments! They inspired me to respond in an article on the blog which I will post soon.
P.S. The Easter egg hunt, in all probability, was not birthed by the Spirit in the height of revival when those kinds of things make no difference, but was probably conceived of as the revival waned and the movement began entering into its institutional stage.
I think so too, Dave.
David said:
Hmmmm, spiritual leaders of their time asking questions of the proposed authority. Quite a concept there. Then, if these sages are to be examples of the faith, it would behoove us to do the same thing: Engage our minds personally, ask questions, investigate, know what it is that we actually believe.
I find it interesting that certain leaders, particularly those in the MFI camp, look to the OT more than they do the NT as an example for topics such as tithing and church governance, yet ignore examples such as this (the sages who asked questions and were honest and realistic about life).
So any church with more then one campus is corrupt? Oh…like most sects like Methodists, Catholics and right on down the list. Quit the blatent hate for the church guys. Seriously, if you want to debate the issue of prosperity doctrine, then do it. But don’t attack a church for trying to reach more people.
samsung said: So any church with more then one campus is corrupt? Oh…like most sects like Methodists, Catholics and right on down the list.
samsung, I’m not saying that the very existence of more than one campus automatically makes a church “corrupt” (to use your word), but when thinking about the simulcast church model, I think that it is very important to keep in mind that there is a big difference from a denomination that has many different local churches and a different pastor over each one of their churches in many different pulpits across the land each weekend and the church you are talking about who has one senior leader over all of the campuses; one face in the pulpit most, if not all, of the time; if it’s all about “reaching more people,” then why not train and release many, many more pastors to plant many, many more smaller churches all over the region?
[Comment ID #31721 Will Be Quoted Here]
What are you talking about man? You are comparing apples and oranges. Those other sects of Christianity don’t have multiple mega churches within 10 miles of each other, with one main guy preaching to all of them at the same time via jumbo TV screens. Those sects have multiple community churches with different leaders trained under the same theological beliefs, but managing their own location. This way you have many different options for people…not just one man, take it or leave it.
What these multi-campus church pastors are doing is prideful, arrogant, and a “look at me” approach to pastoring. They are saying to everyone I’m so important that I have to have multiple locations – one is not enough for me. That’s just men on a power trip. I was behind the scense at CBC for awhile and do you know how many elders and prominant leaders went to the head leadership and asked to be sent out to plant a church somewhere and they said no? Why? Because they felt that person would “steal” some of their members and draw in new people that they wanted. Why was this such a big concern? Because of money. They didn’t want these people getting donations that they could be getting. So the main reasons for the multi-campus approach are money and power. You telling me your ok with that?
All we are saying is that if someone wants to reach more people, they should raise up more leaders and send them out to do church plants all over the city. That way there is something small in every neighboorhood for all people.
ex city church slave said: I was behind the scense at CBC for awhile and do you know how many elders and prominant leaders went to the head leadership and asked to be sent out to plant a church somewhere and they said no? Why? Because they felt that person would “steal†some of their members and draw in new people that they wanted.
ex, you know from your own observation and experience that you have hit the nail right on the head; very well put! sources tell me that there was a “vow” made by those at the top of the pyramid that “never again” would so many leaders be released to plant churches all over the region as what happened right around the time of The Great Transition. The simulcast church model, in the sense that you just described it, is worse than a denomination! It is all about market domination and control.
samsung, if it was not about the concentration of power and money in one place, then why not spread the wealth around more? if the incomes were published publicly, i would wager that the more campuses, the higher the salary for those at the top! try to get the numbers if you can and let us know
I never really thought about it like that. But yeah, that is absolutely what it’s about. If they start a church in a new area, it will be that much more difficult for any another churches to start up there.
Also, don’t you think they are just dilluting their tithing pool? They aren’t attracting new tithers, as much as they are just spreading their current “tithers” out across the city. Financially, it must be putting a burden on the church. Which is why I suspect they are removing all financial support for City Christian Schools.
catalyst, i don’t see them diluting their tithing pool as long as they continue to attract new members into their various campuses who they can brainwash into becoming faithful tithing members; they are trying to expand their tithing pool by making it more convenient for members to attend a service closer to them; they are making more room in all campuses for new tithing members to keep expanding ad infinitum;
moreover, to me, it is worse than a denomination because it is a form of a Celebrity Cult; I’ve visited quite a few Four Square churches over the years and I’m glad that I didn’t have to hear the President of Foursquare wherever I went!