Kingdom Giving
Posted on March 1st, 2008 by catalyst into the City Boobie Church categoryI just want to highlight a sentence from a new reader who defends City Bible:
They're not all about the money, just about Jesus!, although kingdom giving does need to be taught on, not so the pastors can get paid more money, but so the kingdom of God can be fully established.
Somehow, that statement makes me so sad. God does not need your money to establish His Kingdom, He needs your love.
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March 1st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
He doesn’t need, but demands your money, your love, your life , your all; if indeed He is your Lord and Savior. God wants fully committed disciples, not perfect but committed and willing.
March 1st, 2008 at 3:46 pm
…if all of this attention to money and giving is all about the kingdom of God rather than the kingdom of Man - which is the impression I think that I was supposed to get when I read Wendell Smith’s book, Prosperity with a Purpose - then please answer a few questions for me:
(1) why don’t the senior pastor’s post their annual salaries and benefit packages in the annual financial report?
(2) why don’t they allow the people to vote on whether or not they deserve a raise in salary?
(3) why is there such a disparity in salary levels between the senior pastors and everyone else on church staff? and
(4) why are there still members in these local churches who are financially poor when the senior pastors are able to afford vacation and investment properties?
March 1st, 2008 at 7:06 pm
If you do a study on Jesus’ words: “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…” you will find how His kingdom is fully established.
The short version of the study is:
(1) His kingdom comes when people are born again (John 3:5-7 and Col. 1:13-14)
(2) His will is done through our obedience (Luke 22:42)
(3) It comes on earth through making disciples (Matt. 28:18-20)
In Isaiah 9:6-7 — the passage about the reign of the King and His kingdom — it says “the zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.” Not one word about finances.
As for the poster’s phrase: “It’s all about Jesus…” I challenge said poster to listen very carefully to one of FD’s sermons. When you are done listening, will your heart be turned to worship and surrender because the Lamb is worthy? Or were you told to be obedient so that you will activate God’s principles to bring health, wealth, happiness and honor into your life.
Were you brought face to face with the Sovereign King and shown mercy and grace through the Cross? Or was it made to seem as if God exists for our benefit, and if you just do it right, you’ll hit the anointing jackpot?
When the Moravian missionaries went out to bring the gospel to the nations, sometimes selling themselves into slavery to do so, their motto was “to obtain for the Lamb the reward for His suffering.” I pray for the time when that is what grows in our heart after hearing a sermon.
March 1st, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Did you ever notice in the Gospels that Jesus would never touch the money? It’s true. I can’t find any reference of him ever handling the money. Even when they came to collect the temple tax, he had, oh, I think it was Peter catch a fish and take a gold coin from the fish’s mouth to pay. Judas, among the twelve handled the money for Jesus during his ministry period.
Perhaps that could be a good lesson for church leaders today. Stay away from money. A great woman once said that Gold, Girls or Glory can bring any ministry down.
Oh, last thing my yuppie friends; whomever you quoted in the headline blog is very, and I mean very naive.
March 2nd, 2008 at 2:26 am
Good point about the noble Moravians, anna.
The level of love and commitment to the Gospel necessary in order for one to do what they did for Jesus is not only unheard of today, but is also in total opposition to — and embarrasses by comparison — the lifestyle of the average, modern-day Christian…
Whose main concern seems to revolve around the things of this world:
- being accepted by the right clique
- going to the church with the biggest jumbotron
- finding the right career
- having the most “My Child Was Student of the Month” stickers
- choosing the right rims for his Lexus/Acura/Infiniti
- wearing the right designer clothes
- oh yes…all the while sipping his obligatory daily Starbucks.
Oh, that’s a good one!
-joe
March 2nd, 2008 at 7:03 am
Good thoughts, Anna. What I believe I hear you saying is, many people have been shown a false vision of what the kingdom of God looks like.
Luke 17:20-21 (GW) The Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God would come. He answered them, “People can’t observe the coming of the kingdom of God. (21) They can’t say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ You see, the kingdom of God is within you.”
I’m at a loss to understand how money can buy a kingdom that resides within us?
March 2nd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
maybe Jesus didnt ever handle the money because he had better things to be doing? and it would have been a better use of his time to let someone else handle it?….just a thought
March 2nd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
…or perhaps because his kingdom was not of this world. I’m always intrigued when I hear the fact that the Patriarchs were wealthy used as an example of why God wants us to be rich. The fact is that for them, there was not such a complete revelation given of the afterlife as we now understand it from N.T. teachings. In fact even the Pharisees and Saducees were divided on this point (whether or not there even was a resurrection) at the time of Christ; and they were the experts in the Hebrew scriptures. Jesus apparently had no such delusions. He seemed very purpose oriented - with God’s kingdom that is - and very uninterested with man’s kingdom of money, or his people’s net worth, or financial security etc. etc.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:04 am
Money can’t buy the kingdom of God, but it sure helps in “furthering” it! In James 1:27 it says, “Pure and lasting religion in the sight of God our Father means that we must care for orphans and widows in their troubles…” And of course for you bible scholars out there I wouldn’t want to leave out the last part of that verse “and refuse to let the world corrupt us.”
Now, I will heartily agree that we have not done the greatest on the last part of that verse, but how in the world are we to reach out to orphans and widows without money? Can you feed an orphan with no money? Can you help a widow in need with no money? The answer is yes, of course, but what is more affective: a piece of bread for a hungry orphan or a church being able to purchase and support a whole apartment complex full of ex-convict or ex-addict single moms with children. And not just housing and feeding them, but training them to be good moms and good wives and good workers in society. Rehabilitation or I like to use the word-Restoration. That’s what God is all about right there. His heart is restoration and He is a God who restores.
Doing something like this takes money and lots of it. And in the end it is well worth my tithe and offerings that I willingly give to God.
March 3rd, 2008 at 8:49 am
That’s a silly argument. I’ve never seen you handle money either, but I’ll bet you have. Jesus, as the head of his household, was responsible for the finances and the lion’s share of revenue for supporting his mother and younger siblings, which included paying taxes via money. As a carpenter, he would not have been able to pay his annual tithe in animals or produce as required by the Law, so he would have used money to buy animals for the sacrifice for his family. That would be some trick if he never handled money.
The point He made in Matthew 22 was to have a healthy perspective on what money is and what (or who) it is for.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:08 am
All my point is, is that Jesus was purpose oriented and was not pre-occupied with money and capital campaigns. I personally feel the Bible is sufficient and complete and has everything in it God wanted to be in it. If you feel somehow that you need to add your two bits of deductive reasoning to compensate for God’s lack of information about Jesus’ life in the Gospels then that puts you in the unorthodox category of theology. And on this blog you’ll be in good company.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:15 am
Sorry, I guess I reacted to what seemed to be typical evangelical interpretations of Scripture. Namely, inferring “truths” from a sketchy premise to fit one’s pet doctrine. I understand what you mean, but I couldn’t pass up the opportunity to poke at an easy target. I’m crazy that way.
As far as your comments about unorthodox theology, I’ve decided to take that as a compliment! Thanks.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:25 am
Prez, have you ever noticed that churches tend only to invest in those who have the means to give back (i.e., repay)?
Most of the ministries who cater to cons and addicts (current and ex), are volunteers and poorly funded individuals or para-church organizations.
For all the years I belonged to a denominational church, I only looked at an annual report or budget once or twice and when I did, I must have been asleep at the wheel because I never noticed just how little went to the kinds of ministries you mentioned. In fact, an annual budget meeting was the last time I was in my former church … a para church youth organization, funded by $1K/yr to 10K/yr donations from 6-10 of the local churches, was going into the high school and volunteering there with counseling, etc. It was one of the few effective outreach type ministries I’ve seen in this area. But as soon as the local church I attended began to experience a little budget crunch, they sought to cut funding to the para church youth ministry.
The local chapter of that ‘ministry’ was a young man and his wife, who just had a child and rented a house. The church cut their support from $10k to $5K per year - by line item in the budget that was up for vote. So I put the question to the leadership whether or not they’d asked the other churches to give more, or whether they’d even given the young man heads up that the budget cut was coming … of course the leadership’s answer was “NO!” and I commented “so, in effect, this is a blind-side” … another member began screaming - not an exaggeration - at me asserting that since our church had been giving the lion’s share of funding the ministry should be re-named after our church … the leadership forced a vote and the line item was passed with only 4 no votes …
The real reason they cut the budget? They wanted to re-direct $5K from the para church youth ministry to their internal youth ministry - to fund a retreat so the kids didn’t have to do any fund raisers … I can’t figure that at all - when my youth group raised dough for retreats, we were farmed out to help the elderly with jobs around their homes - weeding, mowing, painting - you name it - we did it - for an hourly wage that went to pay our way on the retreat. It was a win-win proposition. Do kids even do that anymore?
Since that time, whenever I’ve seen a church budget, I look for how much money is sent to missions and other outreach type ministries - and rarely is it ever more than 2-3% of the total budget. What shocks me is when people get all up in arms over charitable organizations who spend the bulk of contributions on salaries and overhead with only a fraction going to actual charitable work - yet they fail to see that their own church does the same damn thing! It still bothers me that I was blind to that for so long …
March 3rd, 2008 at 11:53 am
Well Scrupe,
I can only speak for myself on this one. One thing that I appreciated during our building period was that our Elders said that they did not want to take any money away from missions at all. And in our small town, it took quite a while for us to build two separate buildings debt-free. Now you will not find many churches willing to do that.
We have a pretty big outreach department in our church too. It’s not just some small department that gives out a $100 every so often to a homeless person. Our outreach department has connected with it: a drug/alcohol rehab live-in ministry for men; the same thing for women; a homeless ministry; a non-profit self-help group for people who have experienced a death in the immediate family; an educational and self-help group for those who have Hep C; a mentoring program for young kids in the worst part of our town; character coaching-where adults go into the public school classrooms and teach on character; a Trauma Intervention Program; a graffiti removal program; a jail (men’s and women’s) ministry; a juvenile hall ministry; and that is not all of the ministry’s that our church has to offer. This is not even including any of the missions/missionary’s that we support.
Because our church has served our community and given sacrificially that is why I am glad (a cheerful giver as the Bible says) to give the money God has entrusted to me back to Him. And I for one am under no disillusionment in regards to what some would consider “my” money. The money I make is not mine, neither is the house I own or the car I drive. I am nothing but a steward. And I gladly give back just a little to Him to remind me of that.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:01 pm
formerpbcprez said: I am nothing but a steward…
former, after I publish my book about tithing, I’d welcome your input on the following chapter section: From Stewards to Co-heirs with Christ…
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Dave,
I will gladly give it.
Prez
March 3rd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Wow prez … there’s been nothing like that in my church experience …
March 3rd, 2008 at 5:25 pm
So this person is saying that without SPFD teaching on giving God is unable to establish His kingdom. Yikes, that means the Kingdome of God is not yet established. Why am I a Christian then? I chose to serve God because I was told that He is already the Ruler of the universe. Is this a mistake?
People who believe this kind of stuff are basically preaching that God is uncapable of doing something without money. Does anyone else see how rediculous that sounds? Comon people…the Creator of the universe, the Supreme Being that made all human life has already established His kingdom and controls everything that happens everywhere regardless of the money you and I give. He is GOD! He can do whatever He wants, when He wants, how He wants it done. Don’t limit Him to human standards.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:57 pm
ex-City Bible Slave,
God “controls everything that happens everywhere”.
I know there are many of Calvanist opinion who agree with the above statement. (lots of insurance agents too!)
I’m not one of them. There are people telling lies on earth. It is impossible for God to lie. (Hebrews 6:18) Therefore God is not in control of them.
A covenant requires two parties. God does not control everything. He can’t repent for you or get batized for you. Free will and obedience is required.
I’m not trying to convince everyone, but I do feel the need to speak up now and then lest the Father in heaven get blamed for everything rotten that occurs.
March 4th, 2008 at 2:40 am
Excellent Questions, David!
And every church leader in every church needs to provide an answer–not to you but to the Lord.
1. & 2. In my church, and other growing churches, the pastors’ salaries (we have 7 pastors) ARE indeed posted beforehand–and voted on–AND are listed in our printed annual budget.
3. Our Board (and congregation) has established our Senior Pastor’s salary only fractionally higher than all the others–they work as a team. We have an Executive Pastor (not the pastor) who is gifted in Administration as a spiritual gift who administers guidelines to himself and the other six pastors.
4. Also, the two assistants (secretaries in the old terms) are paid at the upper end of the range for their work knowing that they are the ‘glue’ that holds all things together (outside of Christ!)
5. There might be a reason for investment properties–a member of the congregation may have gifted their own real estate to an individual pastor. Other than that, pastors need to look carefully at not only their own actions but how they are perceived by members (like you for instance). But remember, our Lord Jesus told us “The poor you will always have with you…” Do you remember (if you are old enough) President Lyndon Johnson’s ‘War on Poverty’ of the 1960’s?
That, and all other ‘feel good’ programs make others feel good–but the receipients stay the same. After over $1 TRILION went into that program, the number of people in poverty, percentage-wise–remain the same, if not slightly higher, as it did in the 1960’s.
The key is to focus on the Lord per Col 1:9-12 in asking “Lord, what would You have me to do?”
Great questions for sure. The pastors and others who have ‘made much for themselves’ without seeking to be a wise steward for the Kingdom and Great Commission efforts, will be put to shame.
March 4th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
I’ve never been able to understand this point of view. If God is not in control of everything, then what’s the point of serving Him? Who wants to serve a God that only partially rules the universe. I don’t.
whatHEsaid you should check out our discussion on whether God ordains evil. It’s a really good one. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but me personally I could never serve a God who I didn’t believe had control over everything, good or bad.
March 4th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
ex:
So what you’re saying is that basically God is in control of everything and everything you do is already ordained and you don’t really have to “do” anything or “be” anything cuz He already has pre-ordained everything. Heck if this is true then regardless of how I lived my life here on earth if I am pre-ordained to be in heaven with Christ then I will get there. So I can live a sin-filled life and never repent and still get in to heaven. How does that make any sense?
I believe God is in control of everything but lets us have free-will to do as we please. If we please to serve Him and have relationship with Him then we will have eternal life if we don’t then we will exist in hell for eternity. At least that’s what my Bible says. I don’t know about yours?
Without free-will we would just be a bunch of robots out to populate the earth and that is not what God has in store for us.
March 4th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
For the love of God, please don’t start the argument about free vs. sovereignty again. We’ve done that already. Let’s move on.
March 4th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Yes, it is all about the money. My dtrs attend a City Church plant in San Diego. One of them is an “intern”. She wants to be a 2nd year intern, but they just raised the “tuition” from $4,200 to $4,700 for next year. The assistant pastor drove a Harley Davidson into the service as a gift for the senior pastor this past Sunday. I am so completely fed up with their “shenanigans”. Power-tripping to the max–the senior pastor finally named an elder, because they have been in San Diego for 10 years now and SEATTLE finally gave him the go ahead–so who does he name as the very 1st elder?–HIS WIFE!!! I really don’t like to post all of this because in a way it makes me feel that I am betraying my daughter whom I love very much, but I have to get this off of my chest.
March 4th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
I agree, this is an argument that could go on literally forever. No matter what anyone says we all get to our beliefs based on our expereinces, backgrounds, and personal convictions. Truth be told I really don’t think it matters who’s wrong or who’s right, because the bottom line is its all about accepting Jesus. Once you’ve truly done that then who cares what you believe about how you got to that point. I believe God ordains it because He is in control of everything and it’s His choice who He reveals himself to and the other side says free-will, but whatever. As long as you’ve chosen to serve and follow Christ, that’s all that matters to me. But still, don’t limit God. Don’t put human standards on the Almighty. Your just cheapening His true power. That’s all I’m asking.
March 4th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
us.
I’ve been hearing this one for the last 20 years. This is a pretty old and tired argument. Can you come up with anything better?
March 4th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
The argument was all three paragraphs my friend! But I did like your earlier comment because you pointed out that you had to accept Jesus. So maybe like you said we can agree to disagree.
And FICM: It’s so fun!
March 6th, 2008 at 2:54 am
I agree wholeheartedly that salvation is through Jesus Christ! That is the main subject of the bible.
I doubt I could come up with anything really new in this debate, but I did find one new to me. In Jeremiah 19:5, we find God speaking about some of the evil things done by the Israelites. “a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind.” If people are able to do things that never entered God’s mind, it would seem to indicate free will was involved. It also would seem to rule out everything being ‘predestined’…it would be difficult to ‘ordain’ something if you never thought of it.
March 6th, 2008 at 7:17 am
Ah, crap. I knew I’d get dragged into this…
In that context, I think the speaker (God) is saying that idolatry wasn’t His idea or intention for the Israelites. I really think it’s stretching to make a philosophical point on free will based on this phrase that is used more as an idiom than a literal statement. To say that God is incapable of imagining a particular outcome seems to put some kind of limit upon some One who is, by definition, omnipotent and omniscient.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Old testement arguments mean very little to me. In my opinion, when Jesus came to earth, went to the cross, died and rose again, the laws of the old way were destroyed. I use the old testament for historical reference and as a guide to show me why the law was useless and why Jesus had to come to earth and do what He did. Is there somewhere in the new testemant that shows God’s lack of omnipresence? Don’t get me wrong I believe in free will, but I also believe that if God wants to get something done He’s going to get it done in spite of ourselves and our sin. He is the Master of the Universe. Thinking that He just sits up in the sky and watches the world unfold is wrong in my book.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Cecile said:
Hi Cecile,
I don’t blame you for finally being fed up. Especially if the pastor RECEIVED the motorcycle which he obviously did. And the wife being the elder thing. This seems to be a common occurrence in some the MFI churches. In Boise that’s exactly what they did — not only named the senrior pastor’s wife as elder but the son also; and what’s more, they then named Wendell and Gini elders and they live in Seattle!!! Up till that time, they had a revolving door of eldership (that’s why they named all their family members who were less prone to eventually leave!) because anyone who became an elder saw up close how the finances were handled as well as the severe dysfunction of the senior pastor family itself. Wiser people in the congregation had to ask themselves why this continual exodus and why is the elder position the last stop before the Exit Door? Anyone who stays has some sort of strange obsession with the family so they choose to keep their head in the sand refusing to believe that there’s anything wrong in the leadership.
All that to say, I feel for you and identify with your exasperation!! Hope it all works out for your daughter. Right now, you may be her only link to truth but may only be able to hear what you say when the time is right.
March 6th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
cecile said: I really don’t like to post all of this because in a way it makes me feel that I am betraying my daughter whom I love very much, but I have to get this off of my chest.
cecile, thanks for sharing; i also totally understand your need to get this into the open and talk with others about it;
i assume, maybe incorrectly, that your relationship with your daughter (a member in the church you mentioned?) is such that you feel that you cannot talk to her about your concerns - or have you tried and been rebuffed? if you don’t mind, i’d like to know a little more about your situation so that maybe i could empathize or maybe help; i hope that I don’t sound too presumptuous here but i have a burden for all of those caught in the throws of spiritual and power abuse in the church…
March 6th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
ex, I only posted that ’cause you asked if there was any new ideas beyond us being ‘robots’. I had just come across the Jeremiah reference and was rolling it around in my head.
I like your insight about the use of OT scriptures…I think along the same lines. Christianity should be about what Jesus taught us to do/not do in order to bring about His kingdom on earth. I especially like John 14:21, which I think is the greatest promise in the bible.
Peace
March 6th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I tend to agree with your thought about Jeremiah 19:5 being an idiom. I think the same thing about Isaiah 45:7, which some translations have God as the creator of evil.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Cecile,
If I remember correctly, the San Diego pastor’s wife is also Gini Smith’s sister. It is likely that being named an ‘elder’ was a simple device to double their income from the church. I’m pretty sure the same thing has happened at CBC.
March 7th, 2008 at 11:11 am
I hear ya whatHEsaid. Just tired of hearing arguments about free will with nothing concrete to back that up.
Where is the San Diego church? I live in SoCal and would love to stop in for a vist. Should be loads of fun. Anybody know it’s location?
March 7th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Yep
March 7th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
ex,
you asked, “is there somewhere in the NT that shows God’s lack of omnipresence?” Not that I know of.
I do know of a couple references where He was unable to do something because of unbelief. Matthew 23:37, “How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.” Luke 13:34 repeats the same thing. In Luke 19:41, Christ weeps over Jerusalem, because He knows what will happen to them because of their unbelief. He clearly wanted to gather His people together for a very different outcome, but they would not cooperate. Free will in this case being “unwilling”. It is incredible to think that He who “upholds all things by the word of His power”(Heb. 1:3) could be brought to tears by stubborn unbelief, but that is the way it reads.
Mark 6:5 also indicates He could do no miricles in His hometown, and wondered at their unbelief.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Good find HEsaid. Although it seems to me that it’s not so much that God couldn’t do the miricals, but rather He wouldn’t do them (because of their unbelief). Hard to imagine that God is incapable of doing something because of a human emotion (unbelief). If humans had the power to restrict God’s actions then how can you call Him God?
March 10th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Couldn’t or wouldn’t…my basic thought is that God is only bound by His word and character. I agree that humans cannot control Him.